Harden vs Wade at 23 years old...

[plowking]

I'm a huge Wade fan, but at 23, you have Harden who is a more polished player in my opinion then Wade was/is.

Is James Harden truly talented enough to become a top 25/30 player like Wade is? Even at such a young age hes a better shooter, FT shooter and generally more offensively polished player than Wade. Not as good in the post, rebounder or playmaker, but that is generally something he can work on. Same with his defense.

Which base is more important to have as a player? The polished skillset like Harden does, or in the case of Wade, being better at everything else, and already having a set of moves that can get you 25+ points on a given night anyway?

I think its interesting to look at them as players. Both have nearly identical physical traits, but have turned out two different players. Which do you appreciate more, and believe has a better chance of higher success?

[red1]

Like both of these guys but wade just seemed more sick to me. Dwade athletic finishes>>> Harden is still very young and he will have a healthier career so he has plenty of opportunity to get to that level

[magnax1]

Wade was just better. Harden might be more polished (Im not certain thats true) but he wasn't really much if any better at anything because of it. A better shooter for sure, but not a better scorer overall.
Wade developed so fast. From an all star in the first half of the 05 season, then a top 5 player by the 05 playoffs, to an all time great player by the end of 06 and beggining of 07.

[NuggetsFan]

I dunno if it's just me but Wade was waaay more athletic. Faster, quicker, more explosive, played above the rim more. Harden is the better shooter but even than I don't think he get's into the lane like D.Wade did. Wade used his physical tools perfectly for defense too. Really at this point the only thing Harden does better to me is shoot the ball. He's more crafty like a Manu where as D.Wade was the explosive player that had a good handle and could get others involved and play great D.

If I had to bet on it I'd say Harden doesn't end up as good as Wade was individually. Wade at his peak is one of the greatest we've seen.

[tmacattack33]

Wade.

Wade was pretty nice at 23 years old (he turned 23 in the middle of his sophomore season of 2004-2005).

And Wade was only 24 during his 2006 playoff run. It was amazing. I don't think Harden will be capable of that next year...or ever.

[AlonzoGOAT]

I dunno if it's just me but Wade was waaay more athletic. Faster, quicker, more explosive, played above the rim more. Harden is the better shooter but even than I don't think he get's into the lane like D.Wade did. Wade used his physical tools perfectly for defense too. Really at this point the only thing Harden does better to me is shoot the ball. He's more crafty like a Manu where as D.Wade was the explosive player that had a good handle and could get others involved and play great D.

If I had to bet on it I'd say Harden doesn't end up as good as Wade was individually. Wade at his peak is one of the greatest we've seen.
+imaginaryrep I agree dude have you seen how hard he would go to the rim and dunk too ? He was pretty underrated as a dunker (he does **** up sometimes and go too hard and the ball repels of the rim like a bullet) STILL MY FAVORITE POSTER OF ALL TIME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2sOjr5-Taw

[eliteballer]

I dunno if it's just me but Wade was waaay more athletic. Faster, quicker, more explosive, played above the rim more. Harden is the better shooter but even than I don't think he get's into the lane like D.Wade did. Wade used his physical tools perfectly for defense too. Really at this point the only thing Harden does better to me is shoot the ball. He's more crafty like a Manu where as D.Wade was the explosive player that had a good handle and could get others involved and play great D.

If I had to bet on it I'd say Harden doesn't end up as good as Wade was individually. Wade at his peak is one of the greatest we've seen.

Thats really what it comes down to, its why you take Wade.

[Micku]

Like both of these guys but wade just seemed sicker to me. Dwade athletic finishes>>> Harden is still very young and he will have a healthier career so he has plenty of opportunity to get to that level

Nah. Wade was more flashy back then, but Harden is the better finisher at the rim so far this year.

Wade 2004-05:

Rim: 58.9%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2005/


Harden 2012-13:

Rim: 66.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/shooting/2013/

What is surprising is that Wade had a superior mid range, despite it being awkward, compared to Harden. Wade actually was the better jump shooter overall even though Harden is superior at the 3, he is pretty horrible at the midrange. Could be an off season, but he never was that good at mid range. Harden is the better FT shooter tho.

But it'll be interesting to see what Harden could do as the years go on. Wade at that age was the better all around player, but Harden is the better scorer. That floppy euro step is unstoppable.

[Money 23]

I don't think these two are all that similar at all ... not even their physiques or structures. Wade is like 2 inches shorter, but longer. Harden is stockier and built like a bigger Baron Davis.

Harden being a more polished player at the same age doesn't make him better, in fact it makes him worse. He has no where left to improve. Wade had more innate natural ability.

I think Harden's game is smoother. But I also don't think he can murk a high level defense at such a young age as Wade did to the 2005, and 2006 Pistons. Harden has proven to struggle at times against elite, half court set defenses.

Harden's only real advantage over Wade of the same age is his jumper. Everywhere else he's clearly the inferior player. And as we know, Wade still had room to grow. It's a shame injury cut short his dominant 2007 season. And Wade's 2009 season is along with Kobe's 2003 season the most MJ like season performances for a shooting guard since Jordan retired.

What Harden is doing is nice, but not as nice as young Wade. Wade produced more, had higher ceiling, was way more athletic, and rose to the challenge of better competition.

In terms of comparison, I see Westbrook as a more logical comparison to Wade. Or even though he has been disappointing thus far, I see John Wall as being a similar player.

[NuggetsFan]

+imaginaryrep I agree dude have you seen how hard he would go to the rim and dunk too ? He was pretty underrated as a dunker (he does **** up sometimes and go too hard and the ball repels of the rim like a bullet) STILL MY FAVORITE POSTER OF ALL TIME: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2sOjr5-Taw

His blocks too. He had that quick explosive jump to get up there and throw some shots back in somebody's face.

Harden reminds me of Pierce physically. When he drives he looks more crafty, uses that basketball IQ to knife through a D. Wade reminds you of LeBron, early Kobe etc. in the way that he just was quicker and more explosive than the guy who's guarding him.

Harden = deceptively athletic to me where as Wade came off freakish and was a highlight waiting to happen.

[red1]

Nah. Wade was more flashy back then, but Harden is the better finisher at the rim so far this year.

Wade 2004-05:

Rim: 58.9%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2005/


Harden 2012-13:

Rim: 66.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/shooting/2013/

What is surprising is that Wade had a superior mid range, despite it being awkward, compared to Harden. Wade actually was the better jump shooter overall even though Harden is superior at the 3, he is pretty horrible at the midrange. Could be an off season, but he never was that good at mid range. Harden is the better FT shooter tho.

But it'll be interesting to see what Harden could do as the years go on. Wade at that age was the better all around player, but Harden is the better scorer. That floppy euro step is unstoppable.
stats are useless in this case. watching one game for each player automatically tells you who is sicker at the rim

[plowking]

I don't think these two are all that similar at all ... not even their physiques or structures. Wade is like 2 inches shorter, but longer. Harden is stockier and built like a bigger Baron Davis.

Exact same wingspan, exact same height in shoes, both mid 30's verticals, similar speed recorded in the sprints at pre draft. Both big, bulky 2 guards. They are hardly different.


Harden being a more polished player at the same age doesn't make him better, in fact it makes him worse. He has no where left to improve. Wade had more innate natural ability.

He can still improve on his post game, rebounding, playmaking, etc. He just started off with a different foundation coming into the league, which is what I mention, and ask which is better. Clearly you think Wade's way is better.


I think Harden's game is smoother. But I also don't think he can murk a high level defense at such a young age as Wade did to the 2005, and 2006 Pistons. Harden has proven to struggle at times against elite, half court set defenses.

Agreed. Its much harder to handle a more explosive, agile player like Wade IMO as well.



What Harden is doing is nice, but not as nice as young Wade. Wade produced more, had higher ceiling, was way more athletic, and rose to the challenge of better competition.


All numbers point to them being similar athletes, if anything Harden being slightly better. Maybe Wade has a better knack for applying his numbers to on court performance?

[AlonzoGOAT]

His blocks too. He had that quick explosive jump to get up there and throw some shots back in somebody's face.

Harden reminds me of Pierce physically. When he drives he looks more crafty, uses that basketball IQ to knife through a D. Wade reminds you of LeBron, early Kobe etc. in the way that he just was quicker and more explosive than the guy who's guarding him.

Harden = deceptively athletic to me where as Wade came off freakish and was a highlight waiting to happen.
I agree with everything you said and the bold is a big difference too I don't see harden ever becoming the best shot blocking guard or comparing to him (imo D-Wade). And my favorite playoff performance describes what you said about wade in your second paragraph :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovlaSMsbGY

so beautiful :cry:

[Micku]

stats are useless in this case. watching one game for each player automatically tells you who is sicker at the rim

I disagree. The eye test just shows that Wade was quicker and stronger with his dunks or flashy with his lay ups. But he isn't better. That's where the eye test fails due to statistical facts. Being flashy and quicker doesn't equal production. If Harden was the better percentage at the rim, isn't he the better finisher?

I would say the same thing of Wade if he was better. LeBron that same year was 72.5% at the rim. While stats could be misleading, I don't think it is in this case. Harden is the better finisher. Wade is just more flashy.

Same thing with the shooting aspect of the game. While Harden has a more polish form, he didn't make the amount of jumpshots that Wade did that year. Harden is the better FT shooter tho. Wade had the better jumpshooting percentage.

[red1]

I disagree. The eye test just shows that Wade was quicker and stronger with his dunks or flashy with his lay ups. But he isn't better. That's where the eye test fails due to statistical facts. Being flashy and quicker doesn't equal production. If Harden was the better percentage at the rim, isn't he the better finisher?

I would say the same thing of Wade if he was better. LeBron that same year was 72.5% at the rim. While stats could be misleading, I don't think it is in this case. Harden is the better finisher. Wade is just more flashy.

Same thing with the shooting aspect of the game. While Harden has a more polish form, he didn't't make the amount of jumpshots that Wade did that year. Harden is the better FT shooter tho.
I am too crunk to think but there must be some context to the stats. Common sense tells me that young wade is the better finisher and harden is the superior jumpshooter and I will go with common sense over your stats that try to say otherwise :coleman:

[maybeshewill13]

Meh, I think there'll never be enough difference between their offense for Harden to make up for Wade's defense. Don't get me wrong, I love Harden's game, but when it's all said and done I think Wade would have had the greater career.

[red1]

I am not arguing production I am saying in a vacuum or if they go up against the same teams with the same role on offense wade will always be the better finisher and harden will be the better jumpshooter

[Micku]

I am too crunk to think but there must be some context to the stats. Common sense tells me that young wade is the better finisher and harden is the superior jumpshooter and I will go with common sense over your stats that try to say otherwise :coleman:

I don't know what to tell you then. If someone shot 40% from 3pt over a guy who shot 30% from 3pt shot, you'll say the guy with the higher percentage is the better 3pt shooter.

Same case here. It's as clear as day.

[Micku]

I am not arguing production I am saying in a vacuum or if they go up against the same teams with the same role on offense wade will always be the better finisher and harden will be the better jumpshooter

It's the opposite actually. Wade had the better jumpshot while the defense is live and Harden is the better finisher. It's amazing to think that, but that's what it is. The stats show it.

Wade is the playmaker if you are talking about driving and kicking it out. He did that more times than Harden. But he isn't the better finisher.

[red1]

link me the site you used for the stats

[Micku]

link me the site you used for the stats

I already did. It's basketball-reference.

Here is Harden shot chart of the year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/shooting/2013/

Just go to the shooting tab to check the percentage of different season.

[PJR]

http://youtu.be/rjKej92KcQs

http://youtu.be/wSoPh7k4lb0

Watch those, And tell me that Harden is on that level. I don't think so.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Harden is the more skilled scorer at this stage, primarily due to his jumper, and he mixes up his game better than Wade did at 23. Since Wade didn't have much of a jumper yet, he pretty much always went to the rim, though you couldn't stop him very often. That's the big difference, his athleticism and explosiveness. I don't see Harden becoming the defender Wade was, or peaking as high as Wade did in 2009 when he was mixing up his game more and shooting the ball very well. Wade could be considered a borderline top 5 player already, but Harden himself has definitely been top 10 this season. But Wade was probably the best player in the '05 playoffs before his injury in the ECF, and I'd be surprised if Harden did something like that, though he doesn't have the team for a deep playoff run in the West.

I don't see the same greatness in Harden as Wade.

[Money 23]

Exact same wingspan, exact same height in shoes, both mid 30's verticals, similar speed recorded in the sprints at pre draft. Both big, bulky 2 guards. They are hardly different.
I guess I was wrong, good looking at out.

[red1]

I already did. It's basketball-reference.

Here is Harden shot chart of the year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/shooting/2013/

Just go to the shooting tab to check the percentage of different season.
I took a quick look at the stats all and even though harden did shoot a higher percentage it is still obvious that wade was a better finisher at the rim. Wade>harden when it comes to layups and dunks and that is plain to see.

If I were to guess the reason why harden shot a higher percentage it would probably be due to the fact that wade slashed a lot more often and probably took a ton more difficult shots than harden ever did. Much the same way that kobe's fg percentage always stays in the mid 40's because of the way he is always taking tough shots instead of making it easy for himself I would guess a similar thing is going on here. Dwade shot a higher % as the years went by as well thought that was noteworthy. Right now we are going off of half a season for harden so who knows if his % will dip by the end.

[Micku]

Harden is the more skilled scorer at this stage, primarily due to his jumper, and he mixes up his game better than Wade did at 23. Since Wade didn't have much of a jumper yet, he pretty much always went to the rim, though you couldn't stop him very often. That's the big difference, his athleticism and explosiveness. I don't see Harden becoming the defender Wade was, or peaking as high as Wade did in 2009 when he was mixing up his game more and shooting the ball very well. Wade could be considered a borderline top 5 player already, but Harden himself has definitely been top 10 this season. But Wade was probably the best player in the '05 playoffs before his injury in the ECF, and I'd be surprised if Harden did something like that, though he doesn't have the team for a deep playoff run in the West.

I don't see the same greatness in Harden as Wade.

Before I checked the stats, I would think that too. It's amazing how the stats show the complete opposite. Harden actually don't have a good midrange jumper, but could shoot the 3. Meanwhile Wade had the better mid range jumper, especially at the 16-3pt where he did shot above 40% while Harden hasn't been above 40% for about two seasons. And he is better at the 10-15ft, but couldn't shoot the 3.

Harden is the better finisher than Wade was that year so far, but he is also the better FT shooter. That's the reason why he gets his points despite having a less FG%.

[Micku]

I took a quick look at the stats all and even though harden did shoot a higher percentage it is still obvious that wade was a better finisher at the rim. Wade>harden when it comes to layups and dunks and that is plain to see.

If I were to guess the reason why harden shot a higher percentage it would probably be due to the fact that wade slashed a lot more often and probably took a ton more difficult shots than harden ever did. Much the same way that kobe's fg percentage always stays in the mid 40's because of the way he is always taking tough shots instead of making it easy for himself I would guess a similar thing is going on here. Dwade shot a higher % as the years went by as well thought that was noteworthy. Right now we are going off of half a season for harden so who knows if his % will dip by the end.

Not when Wade was 23. Right now yes.

You can look it up. This is his layup stats when he was 23.

Wade 2004-05:
layups: 50.6%
dunks: 90.5%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2005/

Harden 2012-13:
layups: 58.8%
dunks: 100%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/shooting/2013/

Granted, the season isn't over yet. So, it could go down. And you're right, it does seem like Wade slashed more and create plays and etc. But I don't think it really stops the whole Harden is a better finisher than Wade was.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Before I checked the stats, I would think that too. It's amazing how the stats show the complete opposite. Harden actually don't have a good midrange jumper, but could shoot the 3. Meanwhile Wade had the better mid range jumper, especially at the 16-3pt where he did shot above 40% while Harden hasn't been above 40% for about two seasons. And he is better at the 10-15ft, but couldn't shoot the 3.

Harden is the better finisher than Wade was that year so far, but he is also the better FT shooter. That's the reason why he gets his points despite having a less FG%.

Wade didn't attempt many mid-range jumpers so I don't read too much into those stats. I watched Wade a lot that year since it was Shaq's first in Miami, and regardless of stats, a jumper simply wasn't a big part of his game. He only attempted 4 shots per game from 16-23 feet, and just 2.3 from 10-15.

I started noticing Wade show more of a jumper in '06(especially during the playoffs) and not surprisingly, his attempts increased, even during the regular season to 5.4 from 16-23 and 6.4 attempts from there in the playoffs.

But you are right that Harden hasn't been much of a mid-range shooter.

[red1]

Not when Wade was 23. Right now yes.

You can look it up. This is his layup stats when he was 23.

Wade 2004-05:
layups: 50.6%
dunks: 90.5%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2005/

Harden 2012-13:
layups: 58.8%
dunks: 100%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/shooting/2013/

Granted, the season isn't over yet. So, it could go down. And you're right, it does seem like Wade slashed more and create plays and etc. But I don't think it really stops the whole Harden is a better finisher than Wade was.
I dont know what to tell you, in the second paragraph of my response I gave you the reason why I believe harden shot a higher percentage. Wade was probably taking more difficult shots.

Needless to say it is pointless to argue that harden is a better finisher than dwade since dwade is one of the goat perimeter finishers and harden is not.

[Day La Ghetto]

Its threads like these that make me wonder what wade could of been done/doing without LeBron.right now his up and down play I think is in large part to motivation ,not age. I'm more interested in would you take current wade or harden if you had only 1 season and you were trying to win in all that 1 season,who would take there team further?I'm going with current wade,he's shown he can be that guy still,and everyone in the media has put him on the shelf as worse then harden, but you never hear anyone being scared of going against harden in the playoffs(yet anyways). People will trash wade but alot of them still give him that prop for being 1 guy that you're really afraid in the playoffs. 23/24 wade was really feared, harden you just don't get that feeling from him

[Money 23]

But you are right that Harden hasn't been much of a mid-range shooter.
Which is why he struggles in the playoffs against elite defensive opponents like Miami.

In the playoffs in the NBA, you aren't going to get huge driving lanes to finish at the hoop and unlike the regular season when teams coast defensively, in the playoffs they run you off the three point line. Especially a great defensive team like Miami.

The mid-range game is a lost art in basketball among perimeter players. That in between game is where you do DAMAGE to a team who actually plays defense. You're not going to get easy drives or wide open threes.

It's no coincidence the most successful perimeter players could score from mid range. Jordan won 6 rings dominating that phase of the game. Keeping him the best player in the game well into his mid 30's. Kobe has a sick mid-range game which has lead to 2 rings as alpha, by 2006 with the inclusion of a nice mid-range jumper Wade had it, and won a ring and FMVP in the process.

LeBron didn't have it, and then had it in the 2012 season, his most successful playoff run (see the mid-range barrage v.s. Boston in game 6) ... Harden needs to add this to his game to seriously be effective.

[Micku]

Wade didn't attempt many mid-range jumpers so I don't read too much into those stats. I watched Wade a lot that year since it was Shaq's first in Miami, and regardless of stats, a jumper simply wasn't a big part of his game. He only attempted 4 shots per game from 16-23 feet, and just 2.3 from 10-15.

I started noticing Wade show more of a jumper in '06(especially during the playoffs) and not surprisingly, his attempts increased, even during the regular season to 5.4 from 16-23 and 6.4 attempts from there in the playoffs.

But you are right that Harden hasn't been much of a mid-range shooter.

Indeed. Harden attempts less jumpshots at the mid-range than Wade. He is only attempting about 3 shots from 16-23 and less than one attempt at the 10-15 spot. And he is pretty bad at it. Wade could take you off the dribble or do a better catch and shot at the time, but his game was more slashing. But his midrange game back then was better than Harden, and it rounds up as a jumpshooter overall when the defense is active.

So, I would think Wade had the more ability to change it up since Harden never really was a good mid-range shooter. But he is the better FT shooter, which is why he scores more despite Wade having a better FG%.

[Micku]

I dont know what to tell you, in the second paragraph of my response I gave you the reason why I believe harden shot a higher percentage. Wade was probably taking more difficult shots.

Needless to say it is pointless to argue that harden is a better finisher than dwade since dwade is one of the goat perimeter finishers and harden is not.

I was responding to the first paragraph because it wasn't true when Wade was 23.

But I think you are half right with the second paragraph. Wade slash more often, but I don't really agree that it's the sole reason why Wade shot a less percentage. He shot a difficult shots when he drive at the rim, but Harden is better because of his unstoppable euro floppy step to the basket. We can agree to disagree on that one.

However, Wade did get better over time at finishing. The very next year, he improved greatly at finishing. He shot 65.6% at the rim. Right now he is great, but that's partly because LBJ takes pressure off of him and get him good looks.

All I'm saying is that Harden this year is better at finishing than 23 year Wade. And it'll probably stay that way because I don't see Harden's percentage going down to less than 58.9%

[red1]

I was responding to the first paragraph because it wasn't true. When Wade was 23.

But I think you are half right with the second paragraph. Wade slash more often, but I don't really agree that it's the sole reason why Wade shot a less percentage. He shot a difficult shots when he drive at the rim, but Harden is better because of his unstoppable euro floppy step to the basket. We can agree to disagree on that one.

However, Wade did get better over time at finishing. The very next year, he improved greatly at finishing. He shot 65.6% at the rim. Right now he is great, but that's partly because LBJ takes pressure off of him and get him good looks.

All I'm saying is that Harden this year is better at finishing than 23 year Wade. And it'll probably stay that way because I don't see Harden's percentage going down to less than 58.9%
Im not disagreeing with the stats I am just saying that this is a prime example of stats not telling the whole story. Harden's % at the rim is unexpected and is very impressive but I still have a hard time thinking that current harden is a better finisher than 2nd year wade. Either way this was interesting to see.

[Micku]

Im not disagreeing with the stats I am just saying that this is a prime example of stats not telling the whole story. Harden's % at the rim is unexpected and is very impressive but I still have a hard time thinking that current harden is a better finisher than 2nd year wade. Either way this was interesting to see

I was shocked too when I looked it up. Like I said, Wade was the better slasher, but the stats show Harden's the better finisher. And Wade had the better jumpshot due to his mid-range game. While Harden can shoot the 3, he really sucks at midrange.

It's the complete opposite of what I expected.

[red1]

I was shocked too when I looked it up. Like I said, Wade was the better slasher, but the stats show Harden's the better finisher. And Wade had the better jumpshot due to his mid-range game. While Harden can shoot the 3, he really sucks at midrange.

It's the complete opposite of what I expected.
Lets just say that thus far this year harden has been a more efficient finisher than 2nd year wade. We'll get back to this at the end of the year :oldlol: :cheers:

[Micku]

Lets just say that thus far this year harden has been a more efficient finisher than 2nd year wade. We'll get back to this at the end of the year :oldlol: :cheers:

Sure. That's the word for it for now. We'll see where he'll be at the end of the season in terms of finishing and jumpshots.

[Ikill]

I was responding to the first paragraph because it wasn't true when Wade was 23.

But I think you are half right with the second paragraph. Wade slash more often, but I don't really agree that it's the sole reason why Wade shot a less percentage. He shot a difficult shots when he drive at the rim, but Harden is better because of his unstoppable euro floppy step to the basket. We can agree to disagree on that one.

However, Wade did get better over time at finishing. The very next year, he improved greatly at finishing. He shot 65.6% at the rim. Right now he is great, but that's partly because LBJ takes pressure off of him and get him good looks.

All I'm saying is that Harden this year is better at finishing than 23 year Wade. And it'll probably stay that way because I don't see Harden's percentage going down to less than 58.9%
Other than the fact Wade attacked you should also look at who relies more on fastbreak points. The Rockets are playing at a much faster pace than the 05 Heat so Harden might be getting more easy transition buckets. Wade also had Shaq on his team who gave him more room on the outside for jumpshots but probably made finishing a bit more difficult due to his inside presence. I think the main reason Harden is finishing better is because he gets cleaner looks by playing more under control. Wade would just crash right into the lane

[Ikill]

heres 23 year old Wade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dPpjplN4XQ

[FKAri]

Wade was a better slasher. His quickness, skill and most importantly agility made it impossible to keep him out of the paint. He put more pressure on defenses this way. As for overall player? Probably Wade for that reason. Give him some shooters and it's a deadly offense. Harden has a more well rounded game at the moment then Wade did tho.

[SCdac]

In terms of age and style of volume scoring, Harden reminds me of prime Latrell Sprewell in his Golden State days.

Of course he reminds me of Ginobili too, his Euro step, pacing, and style, but as far as being a dangerous scorer in his prime and the way the Rockets play he reminds me of Latrell. Wade was less reliant on his three but seems like a greater talent of the three. Could break down the best of defenses.

Both Harden and Sprewell played for Fast-paced teams (90's Warriors ran em out as we all know). Both fired a ton of three's, were fast in the open court, great ball handling/footwork that allowed them get into the paint with ease, and could dunk ferociously. In Sprewell's 5th season he was taking as many three's as current Harden and had his best scoring season, but his career never turned out to be what it could have been. None the less, the comparison is more similar imo.

5th season Latrell - 42 mpg, 24 ppg, 6 apg, 5 rpg, 2 spg, 1.8 - 5.2 threes (35%), 8.1 - 18.1 field goal (45%), 6.2 - 7.3 free throw (84%),

4th season Harden - 39 mpg, 26 ppg, 5 apg, 4 rpg, 2 spg, 2.0 - 5.8 threes (34%), 7.9 - 17.8 field goal (44%), 8.4 - 9.8 free throw (85%)

[MJ(Mean John)]

Everyone in this thread is talking about a Dwayne wade that doesn't exist anymore.

Wade was only that player from 03-09.
6 years.

He certainly is not the player he was and a shell of his former self which is pathetic for a guy who's supposed to be in his "prime"
He was worlds better than he is now.


Oh how the mighty have fallen without steroids. Should have never teamed with lebronze. Should have never became Robin; his career, the player he is/was will be changed forever.

[TheAesirsFinest]

Before I checked the stats, I would think that too. It's amazing how the stats show the complete opposite. Harden actually don't have a good midrange jumper, but could shoot the 3. Meanwhile Wade had the better mid range jumper, especially at the 16-3pt where he did shot above 40% while Harden hasn't been above 40% for about two seasons. And he is better at the 10-15ft, but couldn't shoot the 3.

Harden is the better finisher than Wade was that year so far, but he is also the better FT shooter. That's the reason why he gets his points despite having a less FG%.

I'll give you some context for the mid-range shooting. The Rockets' offense heavily favors lay-ups or 3s and condemns long 2s even if they're better looks. From the games I've seen, a significant portion of Harden's mid-range attempts have been bail-out jumpers from a failed offensive set.

[Day La Ghetto]

I think 09-11 Wade used euro just as much as ginobli if not more. Idk about younger in his career but wade has used it a lot during those seasons,why are people saying harden does it so much more?

[red1]

Everyone in this thread is talking about a Dwayne wade that doesn't exist anymore.

Wade was only that player from 03-09.
6 years.

He certainly is not the player he was and a shell of his former self which is pathetic for a guy who's supposed to be in his "prime"
He was worlds better than he is now.


Oh how the mighty have fallen without steroids. Should have never teamed with lebronze. Should have never became Robin; his career, the player he is/was will be changed forever.
:kobe:

[Nash]

I love Harden but let's chill. Current Wade > Current Harden.

Just wait for D-Wade come playoff time.

Also at 23 Wade was on his 2nd year.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Which is why he struggles in the playoffs against elite defensive opponents like Miami.

In the playoffs in the NBA, you aren't going to get huge driving lanes to finish at the hoop and unlike the regular season when teams coast defensively, in the playoffs they run you off the three point line. Especially a great defensive team like Miami.

The mid-range game is a lost art in basketball among perimeter players. That in between game is where you do DAMAGE to a team who actually plays defense. You're not going to get easy drives or wide open threes.

Yeah, it's something Harden has to work on if he's going to take his game to the next level. These things do show up more in the playoffs. I've seen many players who have holes in their skillsets get "exposed" in the playoffs and not perform up to their regular season standard.


It's no coincidence the most successful perimeter players could score from mid range. Jordan won 6 rings dominating that phase of the game. Keeping him the best player in the game well into his mid 30's. Kobe has a sick mid-range game which has lead to 2 rings as alpha, by 2006 with the inclusion of a nice mid-range jumper Wade had it, and won a ring and FMVP in the process.

Yeah, Jordan's mid-range jumper was as big of a part of his game as the drives once Phil took over. He could drive any time he wanted, but anyone who watches the games will see how much of his points came on mid-range jumpers. This was important because it allowed him to fit his game better into the team's offense. He'd still score 35-40, but it was part of what made him so great at making quick, decisive moves. He didn't have to work to get to the basket all the time. Instead of settling for 3s, or trying to force his way to the basket. He'd just take a dribble in from the 3 point line and hit a pull up 18-20 footer, which he rarely missed. This also allowed him to be a better off the ball player as well. Contrary to popular belief, Jordan could shoot 3s, the '90 and '93 seasons are proof, but he preferred the mid-range game, and there's a reason for that.

Kobe is another great example. His mid-range game has been excellent for years. When he took his game to the next level in 2001, I think he had shot either 500 or 1000 jumpers everyday during the offseason. And during that season, Kobe was also lethal from about 20 feet in, and also had the inbetween game with shorter jumpers and floaters which added to his drives. He already had the fadeaway down as well. He actually wasn't much of a 3 point shooter until 2003, but was a great shooter because of the mid-range game, which is more important for a great scorer. Actually, Kobe had the mid-range game before '01. Not as good as '01, but that was already one of his strengths, and I remember even back then people were calling it a lost art.


LeBron didn't have it, and then had it in the 2012 season, his most successful playoff run (see the mid-range barrage v.s. Boston in game 6) ... Harden needs to add this to his game to seriously be effective.

Yeah, I think if you look at what happened to Lebron in the '07 finals and '08 Boston series was his jump shot getting exposed. Most teams couldn't stop him from getting to the basket, which also made him a great playmaker and he was a streaky long range shooter. But the Spurs and Celtics made him a jump shooter and it paid off.

One of the things that took Lebron's game to the next level in '09 was that he was a greatly improved shooter, same with 2010. But it was still mostly long 2s and 3s. He's really added the short range game with Miami. The play that he scored his 20,000 on is a good example. He drove, pulled up and hit a short jumper. And while it doesn't look as nice as Jordan or Kobe's fadeaway, we've seen Lebron add a fadeaway that he'll make quite a bit from 10-15 feet.

Actually, he's not on the same level as many of the guys we're mentioning, but what took Tony Parker's game to the next level and made him a legit all-star was his improved jumper around '06. And it was his mid-range shot, not 3s, and that added to his quickness. He wouldn't fire away 3s anymore, but he'd hit 18-20 footers, or could drive and finish which he did very well for his size.


Indeed. Harden attempts less jumpshots at the mid-range than Wade. He is only attempting about 3 shots from 16-23 and less than one attempt at the 10-15 spot. And he is pretty bad at it. Wade could take you off the dribble or do a better catch and shot at the time, but his game was more slashing. But his midrange game back then was better than Harden, and it rounds up as a jumpshooter overall when the defense is active.

So, I would think Wade had the more ability to change it up since Harden never really was a good mid-range shooter. But he is the better FT shooter, which is why he scores more despite Wade having a better FG%.

Harden does attempt almost six threes per game, so he still does shoot more jumpers. Honestly, I'm surprised Wade even attempted 4 shots from 16-23 in '05. Wade did prove himself that year in the playoffs, though. That's when I really took notice of what a special player Wade was and could be. So I'll have to see something like that from Harden before taking the comparison too seriously.


In terms of age and style of volume scoring, Harden reminds me of prime Latrell Sprewell in his Golden State days.

I watched more of Spree in NY, but he was definitely faster and quicker than Harden. Harden seems to play more in control while Spree was always a burst of energy. Sprewell was obviously the much better defender, and had more of the short range and in between game.


I love Harden but let's chill. Current Wade > Current Harden.

Just wait for D-Wade come playoff time.

Also at 23 Wade was on his 2nd year.

Based on this season so far, Harden has been better than Wade. We'll see what he does in the playoffs It's tough to guess since Wade struggled early in last year's playoffs, but then had some great games. He can show flashes of prime Wade, but he hasn't consistently played like that since 2011.

[SCdac]

I watched more of Spree in NY, but he was definitely faster and quicker than Harden. Harden seems to play more in control while Spree was always a burst of energy. Sprewell was obviously the much better defender, and had more of the short range and in between game.


While I agree Sprewell was quicker and more explosive, Harden is deceptively fast (and strong), takes long strides ala Ginobili, and runs the break often.

Both were getting alot of their points within the fast paced flow. And, something I didn't mention earlier, Harden's and Sprewell's actual shot and shooting stroke look more similar than Wade.

As far as defense, Harden doesn't seem like a natural great (as far as lateral speed and innate abilities) but with somebody his age there's always room for improvement. Same for Harden's in-between game, which tends to improve as players age I think. Ginobili in particular put alot of work into his midrange shot at about 26-28 years and I think it just takes the discipline (it is sort of a lost art).

The way Sprewell racked up assists and built plays from the perimeter reminds me of Harden on the Rockets. Sometimes in a triple-threat kind of position, but not always. Prime Wade seemed more inside-out ala Tony Parker.

Sprewell (39/11/9) with Golden State Warriors, 1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wyb74l3fUc

[ShaqAttack3234]

While I agree Sprewell was quicker and more explosive, Harden is deceptively fast (and strong), takes long strides ala Ginobili, and runs the break often.

Both were getting alot of their points within the fast paced flow. And, something I didn't mention earlier, Harden's and Sprewell's actual shot and shooting stroke look more similar than Wade.

As far as defense, Harden doesn't seem like a natural great (as far as lateral speed and innate abilities) but with somebody his age there's always room for improvement. Same for Harden's in-between game, which tends to improve as players age I think. Ginobili in particular put alot of work into his midrange shot at about 26-28 years and I think it just takes the discipline (it is sort of a lost art).

The way Sprewell racked up assists and built plays from the perimeter reminds me of Harden on the Rockets. Sometimes in a triple-threat kind of position, but not always. Prime Wade seemed more inside-out ala Tony Parker.

Sprewell (39/11/9) with Golden State Warriors, 1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wyb74l3fUc

There's no question Harden can improve on these areas, he has a lot of time. Harden is a deceptive player in general, though, which reminds me much more of Ginobili.

You're right that both took advantage of transition opportunities, though. Even with the Knicks, when Ewing got injured, Spree added a new dimension to the team in that '99 run. They were never going to be a running team with Van Gundy coaching, but with Camby's athleticism, they tried to run more, and that was the only chance vs the Spurs, but there really wasn't much of a chance vs that Spurs team as you know. They were beating teams with more talent, higher expectations and more size than the Knicks with ease such as LA and Portland. Even so, Spree managed to score in transition for the Knicks, so that was obviously a big part of his game, just like Harden is thriving.

[Micku]

Other than the fact Wade attacked you should also look at who relies more on fastbreak points. The Rockets are playing at a much faster pace than the 05 Heat so Harden might be getting more easy transition buckets. Wade also had Shaq on his team who gave him more room on the outside for jumpshots but probably made finishing a bit more difficult due to his inside presence. I think the main reason Harden is finishing better is because he gets cleaner looks by playing more under control. Wade would just crash right into the lane

That's a very good point.

I think you are right overall. The Rockets are the second best fastbreak team in the league atm, only a .1 points behind denver. So, it could help Harden percentage of course. I just don't know how often he gets those.

I think you are right on the money when you said that Harden looks like he plays more in control while Wade would crash in the lane. It just that Wade actually got better at finishing at the rim the very next season even with Shaq on the team. He did give him room for his jumpers as you said. I think you are right about Harden and the Rockets. But Harden was always pretty good at finishing at the rim. In his second year and beyond, he always shot above 60% at the rim.



I'll give you some context for the mid-range shooting. The Rockets' offense heavily favors lay-ups or 3s and condemns long 2s even if they're better looks. From the games I've seen, a significant portion of Harden's mid-range attempts have been bail-out jumpers from a failed offensive set.


I only watched a handful of the Rockets games, so I would take your word for it and it does appear that you are right. The Rockets are the lead the league in 3pt shots, but they aren't that good with 2 pointers. They are 27th overall from 2 pointers:

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/points-from-2-pointers

With that said tho, Harden never really was that good at his midrange game. He wasn't that good last year, and he's even worst this year. Last year he did average 42.2% at the 16-23ft (made a mistake before), but only average 1 attempt per game. The 10-15ft he shot 29.0% but less than 1 attempt per game. As you said, it could be bailout jumpers this year, but midrange never seem to be apart of his game and he was never really that good at it.


Harden does attempt almost six threes per game, so he still does shoot more jumpers. Honestly, I'm surprised Wade even attempted 4 shots from 16-23 in '05. Wade did prove himself that year in the playoffs, though. That's when I really took notice of what a special player Wade was and could be. So I'll have to see something like that from Harden before taking the comparison too seriously.


I agree. Harden had a hiccup last year in the finals while Wade in the 05 playoffs stand out a bit. But there are other things that make Wade more impressive than Harden at the same age. Harden don't really have Wade's defense at the same age. I think Harden does have similar playmaking ability even though Wade had more assists. I would guess it's due to Lin, but Wade also had Jason Williams the very next year. Wade is better from the field, take better shots and is better while the defense is active, tho Harden is the better scorer due to his FTs percentage.

As you said, we'll have to see what could Harden do. In the playoffs, Wade stood out a bit. We'll see if Harden could do something similar.

[TheNaturalWR]

I dunno if it's just me but Wade was waaay more athletic. Faster, quicker, more explosive, played above the rim more. Harden is the better shooter but even than I don't think he get's into the lane like D.Wade did. Wade used his physical tools perfectly for defense too. Really at this point the only thing Harden does better to me is shoot the ball. He's more crafty like a Manu where as D.Wade was the explosive player that had a good handle and could get others involved and play great D.

If I had to bet on it I'd say Harden doesn't end up as good as Wade was
individually. Wade at his peak is one of the greatest we've seen.

This x100.