[VIDEO] Nate Thurmond - would he be the best bigman in this current era?

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ENEhgBE_9L4/UPzbi_Ga8QI/AAAAAAAAEA0/8amlE_cMeas/s640/Nate%25203.jpghttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IlubSSwQ0yY/UPzbjLxgbzI/AAAAAAAAEA8/Lz0OunkNBbQ/s640/Nate%2520Thurmond1.jpg

http://youtu.be/Xh90_lXqh5o

So in his prime we've got perhaps an even longer version of Dwight Howard, with a jumpshot (with surprising range), a hook shot, and terrorizing defense that still keeps the ball in play - minus the Prima donna-ism and constant smiling. Only downside is that Nates fg% throughout his career has a lot of room for improvement by bigman standards but I think it is as low as it was because he is not a natural scorer (neither is Dwight, or Chandler, or any other center in the modern era) and he took shots in volumes that would be considered unnecessary today because his aim was his high school coaches philosophy of "keep your opponents score down, but also try outscoring them" (and in his era there were a lot more offensively gifted big men that would score in volume that he would have been trying to outpace in the scoring column).

[Deuce Bigalow]

He would be a great energy guy off the bench. Like a Jordan Hill type player. Maybe a chance at being a starter one day when he hits his prime. Something like 8-10 rebounds a night if he gets enough minutes.

[CavaliersFTW]

He would be a great energy guy off the bench. Like a Jordan Hill type player. Maybe a chance at being a starter one day when he hits his prime. Something like 8-10 rebounds a night if he gets enough minutes.
lol you try too hard

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I think he would be dwight level.

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol you try too hard
I'm trying too hard? You asked if he would be the BEST BIGMAN OF THIS ERA.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm trying too hard? You asked if he would be the BEST BIGMAN OF THIS ERA.
He's a 50 greatest player that routinely held Wilt and Kareem to their lowest #'s head to head and played in one of the strongest center eras in history (going up against Reed, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, Bellamy etc)... and he's the first player to officially record a quadruple double. Is there really a problem with discussing whether or not he'd be considered the best center of this era - one of the weakest center era's in NBA history?

[bdreason]

He would be the best defensive Center in the NBA today.

[senelcoolidge]

It's too bad that he missed out on a ring. He was traded to the Bulls for Clifford Ray before the warriors would go on to win that Championship in 74-75. You can put him or practically any of those great centers from his era or the eras that had good big men and they would be the best in today's league.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/221/5/d/skyhookblocknate_by_dantheman9758-d5aj2t6.gif

[jongib369]

He would be a great energy guy off the bench. Like a Jordan Hill type player. Maybe a chance at being a starter one day when he hits his prime. Something like 8-10 rebounds a night if he gets enough minutes.
Thurmond, Wilt and Bellamy VS Bynum, Dwight and Pekovic ???


http://oi46.tinypic.com/2m296wo.jpg

[Round Mound]

Yes...Especially After the Fact that Shaq and Yao Ming are Gone...The League is Suffering from the Low Level of Centers Around.

[L.Kizzle]

2nd and 3rd tier centers from back then would be the best centers in the game today.

Bellamy, Beaty, Sikma, ect.

[jongib369]

I looked through some their H2H data and Nate was not just defending Wilt well but outrebounded him many times. From 68-69 onwards, Nate also outscored him in virtually every game even though their regular season averages were very much on par the first few years.

1964-1965 (3 games)

Wilt averaged 26.7 ppg on exactly 50% shooting. He had individual games of 34 points on 63% shooting, 24 points on 33% shooting, and 22 points on 53% shooting. Wilt won 1-0 in the rebounding battle where we have the numbers.

1965-1966 (9 games)

Wilt averaged 28.6 ppg in his H2H's against Nate. He had a game of 45 points on 53% shooting and another of 38, 33 and 30 points but he also had games of 26, 25 (on 36% shooting), 23, 22, and even 15 points. It's likely he shot below 50%.

In 6 games where we have Nate's rebounds, the battle on the boards was 4-2 Wilt.

1966-1967 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 20.8 ppg with just one game of 30 points (albeit a triple double with 26 rebounds and 13 assists!). In 3 games that we have FG% Wilt shot a cumulative 51.1%. He shot 68.3% for the season.

In 5 games where we Nate's rebounds, 2-2 and the the fifth game was tied.

1967 Finals (6 games)

Wilt averaged 17.7 ppg on 56.0% shooting but just 30.6% from the line. Nate outrebounded Wilt in just one game but he was close throughout. Wilt took it by a paper-thin 28.5 to 26.6 rpg margin over the whole series.

1967-1968 (4 games)

Nate completely outplayed Chamberlain in what was Wilt's MVP season.

In four games Wilt averaged 13.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, and 7.0 apg on 37.9% shooting. A far cry from his season average of 24.3 ppg on 59.5% shooting. Nate averaged 15.0 ppg and 26.8 rpg as the Warriors won the season series 3-1. The rebounding battle was 2-2 but Nate won one game by a 33-17 margin!

1968-1969 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 13.7 ppg and 23.7 rpg on 54.7% shooting. The rebounding battle was 3-3. Nate averaged 17.3 ppg and 23.8 rpg.

1969 WD Round 1 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 12.0 ppg and 23.5 rpg on 50.0% shooting. The rebounding battle was 4-2 for Wilt. Nate averaged 16.7 ppg and 19.5 rpg.

1970-1971 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 10.2 ppg and 18.0 rpg on 55.3% shooting. The rebounding battle was 3-2 Thurmond with one tie. Thurmond averaged 22.7 ppg and 17.3 rpg against Chamberlain as well.

1971-1972 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 6.8 ppg and 18.0 rpg on 67.8% shooting. The rebounding battle was 3-2 Wilt with one tie. Nate averaged 18.3 ppg and 16.7 rpg.

1972-1973 (7 games)

Wilt averaged 5.3 ppg and 16.6 rpg on 68.4% shooting. Thurmond won the rebounding battles 7-0 and averaged 12.6 ppg and 21.6 rpg.

1973 WCF (5 games)

Wilt averaged 7.0 ppg and 23.6 rpg on 61.1% shooting. Wilt won the rebounding battle 3-2. Nate averaged 15.8 ppg and 17.2 rpg.


Overall out of their 47 regular season H2H's:

- Nate outscored Wilt 26 times, Wilt outscored Nate 20 times, and one game was a tie

- for the 41 games we have Nate's rebounds he won the battle 21 times, lost 17 times, and three games were a tie :bow:

- Nate held Wilt far below his averages; you can look up every single season and in most cases he was 6-7 ppg and 5+% below his averages


Overall out of their 17 playoff H2H's:

- each man outscored the other 8 times and one game was a tie

- Wilt won the rebounding battle 12 times and Nate won 5 times but the margins were thin

- Wilt's scoring volume and efficiency were drastically reduced

- Nate shot a very poor FG% against Wilt around 37% overall in their H2H's

If someone can look at his numbers VS arguably the best 2 centers to play the game and doubt he'd be the best in the league is out of their mind

[SHAQisGOAT]

Definitely.

Imho he's the GOAT m2m post-defender. Also really good help D, great rebounder, capable scorer, really athletic, built as a beast, could pass the ball.

[jongib369]

Definitely.

Imho he's the GOAT m2m post-defender. Also really good help D, great rebounder, capable scorer, really athletic, built as a beast, could pass the ball.
Would love to see how he'd do against Shaq. But I think Chamberlain is better suited to guard him

[JMT]

Yes, as would a long list of "old time weak era" bigs like Gilmore, Lanier, Reed, Beatty, Bellamy to name a few.

I would include Wilt but, since he has been deceased for 14 years, he would likely only be the second or third best.

[Helix]

Definitely.

Imho he's the GOAT m2m post-defender. Also really good help D, great rebounder, capable scorer, really athletic, built as a beast, could pass the ball.


Absolutely agree. I think Chamberlain was the all time greatest rim protector, but Wilt had a tendency to hang closer to the paint rather than stick to his man away from the paint, whereas Nate stuck to his man. If his man tried to go around him, he'd beat him to the basket and often times block his shot. I think Nate could use a wee bit of polish on his offensive game, but regardless, he'd be by far and away the best big man in the game today.

[Primary]

replace any version of dwight or hibbert with peak or near-peak thurmond and i think those teams win the title more often than not

[LAZERUSS]

Originally Posted by Djoker
I looked through some their H2H data and Nate was not just defending Wilt well but outrebounded him many times. From 68-69 onwards, Nate also outscored him in virtually every game even though their regular season averages were very much on par the first few years.

1964-1965 (3 games)

Wilt averaged 26.7 ppg on exactly 50% shooting. He had individual games of 34 points on 63% shooting, 24 points on 33% shooting, and 22 points on 53% shooting. Wilt won 1-0 in the rebounding battle where we have the numbers.

1965-1966 (9 games)

Wilt averaged 28.6 ppg in his H2H's against Nate. He had a game of 45 points on 53% shooting and another of 38, 33 and 30 points but he also had games of 26, 25 (on 36% shooting), 23, 22, and even 15 points. It's likely he shot below 50%.

In 6 games where we have Nate's rebounds, the battle on the boards was 4-2 Wilt.

1966-1967 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 20.8 ppg with just one game of 30 points (albeit a triple double with 26 rebounds and 13 assists!). In 3 games that we have FG% Wilt shot a cumulative 51.1%. He shot 68.3% for the season.

In 5 games where we Nate's rebounds, 2-2 and the the fifth game was tied.

1967 Finals (6 games)

Wilt averaged 17.7 ppg on 56.0% shooting but just 30.6% from the line. Nate outrebounded Wilt in just one game but he was close throughout. Wilt took it by a paper-thin 28.5 to 26.6 rpg margin over the whole series.

1967-1968 (4 games)

Nate completely outplayed Chamberlain in what was Wilt's MVP season.

In four games Wilt averaged 13.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, and 7.0 apg on 37.9% shooting. A far cry from his season average of 24.3 ppg on 59.5% shooting. Nate averaged 15.0 ppg and 26.8 rpg as the Warriors won the season series 3-1. The rebounding battle was 2-2 but Nate won one game by a 33-17 margin!

1968-1969 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 13.7 ppg and 23.7 rpg on 54.7% shooting. The rebounding battle was 3-3. Nate averaged 17.3 ppg and 23.8 rpg.

1969 WD Round 1 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 12.0 ppg and 23.5 rpg on 50.0% shooting. The rebounding battle was 4-2 for Wilt. Nate averaged 16.7 ppg and 19.5 rpg.

1970-1971 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 10.2 ppg and 18.0 rpg on 55.3% shooting. The rebounding battle was 3-2 Thurmond with one tie. Thurmond averaged 22.7 ppg and 17.3 rpg against Chamberlain as well.

1971-1972 (6 games)

Wilt averaged 6.8 ppg and 18.0 rpg on 67.8% shooting. The rebounding battle was 3-2 Wilt with one tie. Nate averaged 18.3 ppg and 16.7 rpg.

1972-1973 (7 games)

Wilt averaged 5.3 ppg and 16.6 rpg on 68.4% shooting. Thurmond won the rebounding battles 7-0 and averaged 12.6 ppg and 21.6 rpg.

1973 WCF (5 games)

Wilt averaged 7.0 ppg and 23.6 rpg on 61.1% shooting. Wilt won the rebounding battle 3-2. Nate averaged 15.8 ppg and 17.2 rpg.


Overall out of their 47 regular season H2H's:

- Nate outscored Wilt 26 times, Wilt outscored Nate 20 times, and one game was a tie

- for the 41 games we have Nate's rebounds he won the battle 21 times, lost 17 times, and three games were a tie :bow:

- Nate held Wilt far below his averages; you can look up every single season and in most cases he was 6-7 ppg and 5+% below his averages


Overall out of their 17 playoff H2H's:

- each man outscored the other 8 times and one game was a tie

- Wilt won the rebounding battle 12 times and Nate won 5 times but the margins were thin

- Wilt's scoring volume and efficiency were drastically reduced

- Nate shot a very poor FG% against Wilt around 37% overall in their H2H's

This is somewhat deceptive.

For example, in Chamberlain's 65-66 season, he outscored Thurmond in H2H games, 8-1. And some by huge margins, such as 26-9, 30-10, 33-17, 38-15, and 45-13. Overall, in their nine H2H games, Wilt outscored Nate 28.6 ppg to 16.1 ppg, which includes Thurmond's 30-15 margin in his lone "win."

In Wilt's "scoring prime", he battled Thurmond in 12 H2H games, and held an 11-1 scoring edge. Then, carry these H2H's thru Chamberlain's 66-67 season, and including their six Finals games (in which Wilt outscored Thurmond 5-1), and the margin jumps to 21-3-1. And keep in mind that Thurmond had his greatest individual season in 66-67 (and he also finished 2nd behind Chamberlain in the MVP voting.)

And while we don't Nate's FG%'s in many of the games, we do have them in their three playoff series. In those three playoff series, Chamberlain outshot Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and in the '67 Finals, by a staggering .560 to .343 margin.

We also do not have many of their rebounding H2H's, but just using the playoffs as an example, Wilt outrebounded Nate in their three playoff series by margins of 28.5 to 26.7 rpg; 23.5 to 19.5 rpg, and 23.6 to 17.2 rpg.

In any case, a "prime scoring" Chamberlain just crushed Thurmond. From his 67-68 season on, Wilt dramatically reduced his shooting against Nate. And, of course, Wilt blew out his knee early in the 69-70 season, and was never the same offensive force again.


BTW, how about Nate against the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier?

From Lanier's rookie season, 70-71, thru Nate's last outstanding season, 73-74, the two went H2H 20 times. Thurmond outscored Lanier in those 20 games, 12-6-2, which included beatdowns of 30-14, 42-27, and 43-13.


Furthermore, Thurmond's and Willis Reed's careers basically mirrored each, and in their 46 H2H games, Nate held a 16.6 to 14.9 ppg margin.

He and Russell went at 42 times, and Thurmond held a 16.3 to 12.2 ppg margin. BTW, Thurmond had two games over 30 (both of 34.)

Overall, Thurmond and Bellamy battled in 62 H2H games, and Nate outscored him by a 16.2 to 15.4 ppg margin. However, Chamberlain was actually the center in the majority of the H2H's in 63-64 and 64-65. And from 66-67 on, Thurmond held a decisive advantage of 28-6-2. And some of those were by huge margins. In fact, Thurmond held a 7-0 advantage in 30+ point games, with a high of 36.

And, while a prime Kareem outscored Thurmond in their 50 H2H's, Nate dramatically reduced KAJ's scoring. In some regular season H2H's, Thurmond outscored Kareem, as well as outscoring KAJ in the 71-72 playoffs (which also was Abdul-Jabbar's greatest statistical regular season.) Furthermore, Kareem had as many games of under 20 points, seven, as over 30. In fact, KAJ's high game, in those 50 H2H's, was only 34 points. Overall, KAJ shot an eye-popping .440 against Nate in those 50 H2H's, including .439 in their three playoff series (covering 16 games.) And in their last two playoff series, KAJ shot .405 (in a series in which Nate outscored and outshot him), and .428.

Thurmond certainly has a case as the greatest one-on-one defensive center in NBA history.

[Bobby13]

This really isn't fair. He's one of the GOAT defensive bigs with every bit of evidence to back up that claim. And you're comparing him to the Noahs, Gasols and Howards of this era? :biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

BTW...

Listen to Wilt at near 45 second mark...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BDd7jM4zYs

He claims that Nate had about an inch on him in standing reach.

[bdreason]

Dwight isn't a bad comparison. He was better than Dwight though. A lot tougher too but it's a different game these days.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, as would a long list of "old time weak era" bigs like Gilmore, Lanier, Reed, Beatty, Bellamy to name a few.

I would include Wilt but, since he has been deceased for 14 years, he would likely only be the second or third best.

I have said it before, but prop Wilt's corpse up under the basket, and I suspect that there are a number of starting centers in today's NBA that wouldn't be able to score against it.


As for that list...you can McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes, and Unseld to it. As well as Russell and Kareem.

[Psileas]

I have said it before, but prop Wilt's corpse up under the basket, and I suspect that there are a number of starting centers in today's NBA that wouldn't be able to score against it.


As for that list...you can McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes, and Unseld to it. As well as Russell and Kareem.

I think Wilt's statue would do a good job itself.

[JMT]

I have said it before, but prop Wilt's corpse up under the basket, and I suspect that there are a number of starting centers in today's NBA that wouldn't be able to score against it.


As for that list...you can McAdoo, Cowens, Hayes, and Unseld to it. As well as Russell and Kareem.


I'm so old, I don't think of those guys as old timers. :roll:

[Psileas]

I'm so old, I don't think of those guys as old timers. :roll:

They say age is just a number.
"Old" is just a word. I often think in astronomy terms and I don't find 1,000 BC to be a particularly "old" age. It's only a bit more than 1 million days, whereas dinosaurs disappeared at an age 22,000 times older...

[imdaman99]

He'd be the best center in the league and he would offer security to Lebron, as he would have a worse hairline. And someone as manly as him, Lebron could follow in his footsteps :rockon:

[Nash]

ffs look at the tiny people he's battling with in the post in that video.

[LAZERUSS]

Speaking of the Nate-Wilt H2H's...

Once again, Chamberlain dramatically reduced his shooting in his 66-67 season. But in one early season encounter, there was a hint of what Wilt was capable of, even against Nate the Great...

In Wayne Lynch's book, Season of the 76ers...page 69...


San Francisco, featuring the deadeye shooting of Rick Barry and rebounding power of Nate Thurmond, gave the 76ers major trouble. So much that early in the second half, Hannum had to abandon his plan of Chamberlain as playmaker, pushing his team to send assists Wilt's way and turn him into a scorer again.

It worked. Wilt slammed home 24 points in the second half, finishing with 30 overall, plus 26 rebounds and a dozen blocked shots to spark a 134-129 win.

[jongib369]

http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/13/24/53/2968300/9/628x471.jpg

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000OnQiA7RoezQ/s/860/860/THURMOND-CHAMBERLAIN.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

From Julizaver...


I am posting the aggregated stats of Kareem against Nate Thurmond during the period 1969 - 1973 season by season, as in that period both players met 3 times in the playoffs and in total of 34 times (including the regular season meetings):

1969 - 1970 (Kareem's rookie season) 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 42.0 mpg 21.67 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, 0.348 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 46.7 mpg 20.67 ppg, 17.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 0.490 FG/FGA


1970 - 1971 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 26.67 ppg, 14.7 rpg, 0.484 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 23.83 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 0.477 FG/FGA


1970 - 1971 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 39.2 mpg 27.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 0.6 apg, 0.486 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 38.4 mpg 17.60 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 0.371 FG/FGA


1971 - 1972 3 games - reg.season

Kareem - 24.00 ppg, 16.3 rpg, 0.441 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 16.33 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 0.260 FG/FGA


1971 - 1972 5 games - playoffs

Kareem - 47.0 mpg 22.8 ppg, 19.0 rpg, 5.4 apg, 0.405 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 46.0 mpg 25.40 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 0.434 FG/FGA


1972 - 1973 6 games - reg.season

Kareem - 25.83 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 0.488 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 13.67 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 0.367 FG/FGA


1972 - 1973 6 games - playoffs

Kareem - 46.0 mpg 22.83 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.428 FG/FGA

Nate ---- 42.5 mpg 13.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.423 FG/FGA

[oarabbus]

OK guys, I gotta ask. So is today just the weakest, shittiest, most devoid of talent era we have ever seen in basketball? Apparently the 60s/70s had far more talented bigs and equally talented wings, while the 90s had far more talented wings and equally/more talented bigs.

So today just sucks?

[iznogood]

Possibly. I liked this video, he's got soft hands and looks like a good passer as well. Great skills!
I don't think he's on Dwight's level in terms of athletic ability though, he's vertical looks lower and he doesn't run as fast in my opinion. He does look stronger than Dwight to me though.
He's another early player I always thought could be a PED user though, he looks pretty big for someone so lean. His hair loss would support my claims as well.