Orlando Dwight

[ShaqAttack3234]

With all of these ignorant threads about Dwight, I feel it necessary to create my own. Anyone who actually WATCHED Dwight in Orlando knows these things, but here are some things that will prove this is NOT the same Dwight that averaged 23/14 in Orlando. He could create his shot, and he had to in Orlando. Can he right now? I don't know. He's nowhere near the athlete he was on a consistent basis, he's not playing as hard, and his coach is not putting him in a position to succeed, unlike Stan Van Gundy who was a fine coach, actually a better coach than his brother Jeff, and much better than Pringles.

Here are 2 ordinary games for 2011 Dwight where you can see him regularly creating his own shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=1m09s

Some more from the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=1m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=2m05s

Not an unusual game for him by any stretch. And here's another game that was also by no stretch unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=2m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=2m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=3m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=3m27s

Just 2 games...and by no means were they his best.

You can't average 23/14 by being spoonfed, especially without an above average playmaker. But that's just offense, his defense has been nowhere near where it was. He's consistently late on his rotations, so while he's among the leaders in blocks, this is not the Orlando Dwight defensively.

I question how long some of you kids have watched basketball, or how many teams you watch, because if you think Dwight could have the success he did in Orlando, and perform the way he has this year while being the same player, then you clearly don't know the game.

Oh, and D'Antoni does deserve a lot of blame. I watched him in NY, and the guy is a moron, don't try to dispute it. When he doesn't have a roster with one of the best PG ever in his prime running everything, he's clueless. Dwight's problems right now go beyond the coach, but he'd be better with just about any coach, and so would the Lakers.

[selrahc]

good job, he can take someone 1 v 1 while all the other players are out beyond the 3 point line... to bad he cant do the same with the lakers, who dont have the same perimeter shooters.

[talkingconch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NagLLJ6ZuTw

Not sure what the fuss is about. He will be back to his self one day

[ShaqAttack3234]

good job, he can take someone 1 v 1 while all the other players are out beyond the 3 point line... to bad he cant do the same with the lakers, who dont have the same perimeter shooters.

Nice argument, asshole, really well thought out. That will really change my outlook. :rolleyes:

[B-Low]

Dwight Howard held Steve Francis back

[Scoooter]

You don't have to be so condescending, Shaq. You're as big an idiot as anyone else here.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You don't have to be so condescending, Shaq. You're as big an idiot as anyone else here.

I may be an idiot, I don't know, but judging by the idiots I see spewing misinformed garbage I must be a relative genius.

I HATE revionist history. Some people try to pretend that Dwight could never do anything offensively, and that just shows ignorance. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Normally, I wouldn't have the energy, but I've had my pint of Jack and 6 pack of Heinekens so I'm ready for the trolls.

[selrahc]

I may be an idiot, I don't know, but judging by the idiots I see spewing misinformed garbage I must be a relative genius.

I HATE revionist history. Some people try to pretend that Dwight could never do anything offensively, and that just shows ignorance. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Normally, I wouldn't have the energy, but I've had my pint of Jack and 6 pack of Heinekens so I'm ready for the trolls.

he never could do anything offensively... if i had his body and athleticism I would be averaging 35 ppg

[ShaqAttack3234]

he never could do anything offensively... if i had his body and athleticism I would be averaging 35 ppg

But you don't know have his body, and I seriously doubt you could average 35 with any body. Why don't you bring an argument with substance? Are you capable? I seriously doubt it, so prove me wrong. And if you don't care, then **** off.

Oh, and obviously he could do something offensively considering the way he was producing in Orlando. And if he couldn't, well then his current play wouldn't be such a letdown.

[selrahc]

But you don't know have his body, and I seriously doubt you could average 35 with any body. Why don't you bring an argument with substance? Are you capable? I seriously doubt it, so prove me wrong. And if you don't care, then **** off.

Oh, and obviously he could do something offensively considering the way he was producing in Orlando. And if he couldn't, well then his current play wouldn't be such a letdown.

in that first video, all dwight howard does is a little hesitation where he is basically faking a spin move, then throw up a hook shot on single coverage jason collins, on every single play... that is not really showing off his offensive skill when he does one move every time. i could do that on jason collins even without dwight howards body

[ShaqAttack3234]

in that first video, all dwight howard does is a little hesitation where he is basically faking a spin move, then throw up a hook shot on single coverage jason collins, on every single play... that is not really showing off his offensive skill when he does one move every time. i could do that on jason collins even without dwight howards body

First of all, you couldn't do that without Dwight's body. Maybe you could execute the moves, but you wouldn't average 23/14 on 59%. More importantly, I never claimed he was Hakeem, I claimed he could create shots in the post, and he did. Are you going to dispute that?

[selrahc]

First of all, you couldn't do that without Dwight's body. Maybe you could execute the moves, but you wouldn't average 23/14 on 59%. More importantly, I never claimed he was Hakeem, I claimed he could create shots in the post, and he did. Are you going to dispute that?

he did it with jason collins defending him :confusedshrug:

thats like saying jose calderon is an elite point guard because he owned steve nash

[Scoooter]

I may be an idiot, I don't know, but judging by the idiots I see spewing misinformed garbage I must be a relative genius.

I HATE revionist history. Some people try to pretend that Dwight could never do anything offensively, and that just shows ignorance. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Normally, I wouldn't have the energy, but I've had my pint of Jack and 6 pack of Heinekens so I'm ready for the trolls.
Dwight's been getting ripped for his offensive game for years. And he's never been a Hakeem or Duncan when creating his own shots. He certainly looks a lot worse now, but I think he actually peaked a couple of years ago, as far as this offensive slide into uselessness we're seeing.

I think his lack of fundamentals (he has really bad hands for stuff like the pick and roll, and has no clue what to do with the ball in traffic), the lack of the Lakers to implement a system that caters perfectly to his game (they don't have the shooters), his back injury/lost athleticism, and the fact that apparently he's an immature bag of shit is all conspiring against him and the Lakers. Plus he and Kobe obviously don't get along, but that seems to be a recurring theme with Kobe.

[Legends66NBA7]

Nice posts, ShaqAttack.

I've seen your other posts regarding your frustration of people bagging on Dwight's game. I didn't need the history lesson, off course, because I've seen enough of Dwight's game to know he can be potent offensively. I've seen him destroy my team in a 5 game playoff series because of how dominant he was in the paint. And that was when his post game wasn't nearly as polished in 2010-11.

The 2 things that are obviously hindering his game is 1) Not being used in the right situations 2) The back issues.

My guess is that he should just leave this team in the off season because I think he wants an easier look towards a championship, which is why that whole circus in Orlando happened.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dwight's been getting ripped for his offensive game for years. And he's never been a Hakeem or Duncan when creating his own shots. He certainly looks a lot worse now, but I think he actually peaked a couple of years ago, as far as this offensive slide into uselessness we're seeing.

I think his lack of fundamentals (he has really bad hands for stuff like the pick and roll, and has no clue what to do with the ball in traffic), the lack of the Lakers to implement a system that caters perfectly to his game (they don't have the shooters), his back injury/lost athleticism, and the fact that apparently he's an immature bag of shit is all conspiring against him and the Lakers. Plus he and Kobe obviously don't get along, but that seems to be a recurring theme with Kobe.

I agree that he peaked in 2011, it's unfortunate, but I don't see him topping his play then, and I had VERY high hopes for him. I don't blame Kobe, though. It's a combination of his back surgery, his effort and D'Antoni's TERRIBLE coaching. You're a Knick fan, right? You remember how bad D'Antoni was?


he did it with jason collins defending him :confusedshrug:

thats like saying jose calderon is an elite point guard because he owned steve nash

Typical ignorance. 1 on 1 match ups are all that matters. By the way, Jason Collins was a fine post defender. And does Calderon play like an elite player consistently? Well, Dwight did in Orlando.

[Micku]

The 2011 series against the Hawks he beasted.

27.0 ppg, 15.5 rpg on 63%.

So, I wouldn't say he was in his norm those games (FTs), but his post moves did improve and he isn't demonstrating what he was in Orlando to the Lakers. I haven't seen him do a hook shot in a while with the Lakers and he used to do that a lot with Orlando.

I don't know what's going on with him.

[red1]

when dwight goes to a new team next year and rapes the lakers I will laugh so hard

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE]Dwight has been regressing in the post the last two years. In the 2010-11 season, Dwight was scoring 0.93 points per post possession, making 50.6 percent of his shots in the post, and turning the ball over 14.5 percent of the time. Last season as Dwight battled injuries and trade rumors he initiated, those numbers slipped to 0.88 PPP and 49.9 percent, while his turnover rate of improved to 13.6 percent.

This season? Dwight is scoring just 0.78 points per possession in the post, making 48.2 percent of his shots, and turning the ball over an astounding 19.7 percent of the time. One out of every five times you throw the ball into the post with Dwight, he

[tazb]

Back injuries + ChuckBe + D'Antoni = fail

[ZaaaaaH]

About time You come out of the Cave and unleash on these trolls. :lol


Problems I have with Dwight is stop Crying stop Hating Kobe and Be the Dwight I use to like before he made it to the Finals.

Also keep on learning. Even Hakeem has pointed out Dwight does not use any of the moves they worked on.

Dwight just got TOO Big headed TOO early. If this Chump stayed humble and Play with the same energy he use to Lakers would not be where they are at right now.

[Levity]

dwight can be a dominating force if he learns how to use his body more in the post, rather than trying to back down people using his arm strenght. like when we played the cavs, dwight just forced his way into great position in the paint against zeller and we were able to get him the ball for easy baskets. but besides that game, he never uses his core strength

another problem that hinders dwights offense in la is that steve nash and company like running high pick and rolls. dwight, for the life of him, cant seem to figure out how to roll, let alone catch the ball in traffic. and since he cant pop either, it makes him look offensively inept. this is why he needs to learn to post up/back down using his body/core and not just his upper body strength.

.as far as athleticism is concerned, its still only half way through his first sesaon post surgery. so his athleticism may come close to what it once was, but in the mean time, he needs to learn on improving his offense without the help of his once absurd athleticism.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The 2011 series against the Hawks he beasted.

27.0 ppg, 15.5 rpg on 63%.

So, I wouldn't say he was in his norm those games, but his post moves did improve and he isn't demonstrating what he was in Orlando to the Lakers. I haven't seen him do a hook shot in a while with the Lakers and he used to do that a lot with Orlando.

I don't know what's going on with him.

Regardless of numbers, nothing Dwight did in the Atlanta series was unusually good for him that year. He didn't play poorly, but I've seen him play better games.


It's the back. He's a shell of his former self athletically.

Nice post, thanks, I was wondering about the numbers prior to this season. And that doesn't factor in some of the missed lay ups he had around the rim this season that would have been huge dunks, or and 1s in the past.

[STATUTORY]

It's the back. He's a shell of his former self athletically.
bingo. No one debates that he was great in orlando but just like players like Steve Francis who had a brief moment in the sun, when your game is based on athleticism it will fade fast and that's what's happened to dwight. he never had the foresight or ability to become fundamentally sound and now his athleticism is diminished he doesn't have the other facets of his game to compensate.

When you game only work in a contrived niche where you are surrounded by shooters and falls apart when taken out of that environment then that's also an indictment of your game.

[Money 23]

I was never a fan. Hate his attitude. He's shady, corny, and lacks true competitive spirit. He's a clown. If Kobe wanted to BE MJ, then Dwight is just as bad for aping and wanting to BE Shaq. Except without the dominance.

He was quite the defensive presence, but without his athleticism, he's just slightly better than a healthy Andrew Bynum. Still good, but he's never been great. Even when healthy.

With that said, he's better than what he's show in LA, even without his athleticism. The coaches and leaders on that team aren't finding appropriate ways to get him involved enough to keep his enthusiasm up on offense, but more importantly to put more effort on defense.

He's one of these modern CLOWN basketball players. Without his athleticism, he is a borderline all-star. Weak skill set. Doesn't help LA's team leaders don't get him properly motivated to want to ball harder, though.

[Scoooter]

I agree that he peaked in 2011, it's unfortunate, but I don't see him topping his play then, and I had VERY high hopes for him. I don't blame Kobe, though. It's a combination of his back surgery, his effort and D'Antoni's TERRIBLE coaching. You're a Knick fan, right? You remember how bad D'Antoni was?
I remember him coaching the Knicks into the playoffs for the first time in six years. That jerk. But obviously I defer to the intelligentsia of ISH (:lol ) for the last word on NBA coaching.

Here's the thing with D'antoni. He puts Dwight on the low block and tries to feature him with Nash, and he gets shit for not playing Pau. He puts Pau in the game with Dwight, and they both look like shit. Mike Brown was supposed to translate his experience coaching the Twin Towers of San Antonio, and they looked like shit. Hell, they looked like shit the last time Phil Jackson was coaching them two. How many more coaches are they going to burn through? You want to say D'antoni is part of the problem, I won't argue, but these coaches get scapegoated way to easily, and way too arbitrarily. No one's saying Doc Rivers is a bad coach, but he really hasn't done much in his career, and this year looks like a total disaster.

And Kobe's definitely a problem, anyone can see that. Has he ever not had friction or some sort of drama with his teammates? Has he gotten any smarter at all in the last 10 years? Has he made any effort at all to change his game this year, in order to mesh with his fellow Hall of Fame team mates? No, no, and no. Everyone else has to defer to him while he shoots 30 footers and fadeaways and makes 3 out of every 10. And his defense is heinous. Please.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I remember him coaching the Knicks into the playoffs for the first time in six years. That jerk. But obviously I defer to the intelligentsia of ISH (:lol ) for the last word on NBA coaching.

Here's the thing with D'antoni. He puts Dwight on the low block and tries to feature him with Nash, and he gets shit for not playing Pau. He puts Pau in the game with Dwight, and they both look like shit. Mike Brown was supposed to translate his experience coaching the Twin Towers of San Antonio, and they looked like shit. Hell, they looked like shit the last time Phil Jackson was coaching them two. How many more coaches are they going to burn through? You want to say D'antoni is part of the problem, I won't argue, but these coaches get scapegoated way to easily, and way too arbitrarily. No one's saying Doc Rivers is a bad coach, but he really hasn't done much in his career, and this year looks like a total disaster.

And Kobe's definitely a problem, anyone can see that. Has he ever not had friction or some sort of drama with his teammates? Has he gotten any smarter at all in the last 10 years? Has he made any effort at all to change his game this year, in order to mesh with his fellow Hall of Fame team mates? No, no, and no. Everyone else has to defer to him while he shoots 30 footers and fadeaways and makes 3 out of every 10. And his defense is heinous. Please.

Come on, D'Antoni got to the 1st round of the playoffs with Melo and Stoudemire, we didn't have players of either of their calibers since Ewing got old around '97.

My issue with D'Antoni is how stubborn and narrow-minded he is. He has one vision of basketball, and it worked for 3 years in Phoenixs(no titles or finals appearances, though) and he will not adjust to the talent he has.That's what legitimately good coaches do. The clown was favoring Lin over Melo. How crazy is that? I am so thankful we dumped his ass, err, he "resigned."

[STATUTORY]

And Kobe's definitely a problem, anyone can see that. Has he ever not had friction or some sort of drama with his teammates? Has he gotten any smarter at all in the last 10 years? Has he made any effort at all to change his game this year, in order to mesh with his fellow Hall of Fame team mates? No, no, and no. Everyone else has to defer to him while he shoots 30 footers and fadeaways and makes 3 out of every 10. And his defense is heinous. Please.

Kobe's problems with his teammates are overblown. the only drama that really severed a team was with Shaq and that had its faults in both players as well as the team management. Kobe has also adjusted his game to accommodate for Dwight. Kobe always actively look to set dwight up on the low block and has excused himself from the post to give Dwight space. Kobe's game is not to shoot 30 footer these days but he's relegating himself to the perimeter to feature Dwight. Dwight has not shown any appreciation for what Kobe, Nash, and Gasol have done to help him establish himself. That's on Dwight, not Kobe.

[Scoooter]

Come on, D'Antoni got to the 1st round of the playoffs with Melo and Stoudemire....
So if the coaching doesn't matter, and it's all up to the players - which is what you're insinuating - , then what's the problem?


My issue with D'Antoni is how stubborn and narrow-minded he is. He has one vision of basketball, and it worked for 3 years in Phoenixs(no titles or finals appearances, though) and he will not adjust to the talent he has.That's what legitimately good coaches do. The clown was favoring Lin over Melo. How crazy is that? I am so thankful we dumped his ass, err, he "resigned."
Kind of like George Karl or Rick Adelman or any other coach not named Jackson or Popovich in the last 20 years. And he wasn't favoring Lin over Melo, he was favoring winning over a fat malcontent who wanted him fired. You act like he was bringing Melo off the bench and limiting his shot attempts.

Here's my thing. He may not be a great coach, but I feel like of a lot of the criticisms are from people who aren't actually watching the games. He's obviously not running his PHX Suns system in LA, they're a slower, more half court-oriented team, with the shooting guard as the focal point of the offense as opposed to the PG. When was the last time a SG led a "classic" D'antoni team in scoring? It's supposed to be the big man in the middle!

And, with all of these concessions, they've looked their best this season when they've let Nash run the offense and work through Dwight or Pau. But they can't do that as much as I'm sure they'd like too, because then Kobe wouldn't be getting his 30 shots a game.

All the while, he can't post up Dwight because he sucks now, he can't use him the pick and roll because he's awful at that too, they don't have any shooters except for Nash (who is actually playing pretty damn well, because he's some kind of ageless wizard), he can't post up Pau because he's garbage down there, they look pretty good running the pick and roll with Pau, but he obviously doesn't want to be there anymore, Kobe has no concept of aging gracefully for the good of the team, they have no bench, they had no training camp, and he's getting no credit at all for Earl Clark finally looking like the NBA player his body and skills suggest he should be.

It's pandemonium in LA!

[StateOfMind12]

He has lost most of his athleticism which essentially made him a star, it is why he sucks now.

[Scoooter]

Kobe's problems with his teammates are overblown. the only drama that really severed a team was with Shaq and that had its faults in both players as well as the team management. Kobe has also adjusted his game to accommodate for Dwight. Kobe always actively look to set dwight up on the low block and has excused himself from the post to give Dwight space. Kobe's game is not to shoot 30 footer these days but he's relegating himself to the perimeter to feature Dwight. Dwight has not shown any appreciation for what Kobe, Nash, and Gasol have done to help him establish himself. That's on Dwight, not Kobe.
I especially like how Kobe drives in to the paint, goes up for a shot, waits for Dwight to turn around to look for the rebound, and then fires a "pass" right into the back of his head. If nothing else, the Lakers sure are entertaining.

[STATUTORY]

I especially like how Kobe drives in to the paint, goes up for a shot, waits for Dwight to turn around to look for the rebound, and then fires a "pass" right into the back of his head. If nothing else, the Lakers sure are entertaining.

:rolleyes: yea he's actively waiting for Dwight to turn around just to bounce the ball off the back of his head for kicks. Or maybe it's cause Dwight's inability to get the ball of traditional PnR sets or post ups that's forcing Kobe to find alternative passing lanes.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So if the coaching doesn't matter, and it's all up to the players - which is what you're insinuating - , then what's the problem?


Kind of like George Karl or Rick Adelman or any other coach not named Jackson or Popovich in the last 20 years. And he wasn't favoring Lin over Melo, he was favoring winning over a fat malcontent who wanted him fired. You act like he was bringing Melo off the bench and limiting his shot attempts.

Here's my thing. He may not be a great coach, but I feel like of a lot of the criticisms are from people who aren't actually watching the games. He's obviously not running his PHX Suns system in LA, they're a slower, more half court-oriented team, with the shooting guard as the focal point of the offense as opposed to the PG. When was the last time a SG led a "classic" D'antoni team in scoring? It's supposed to be the big man in the middle!

And, with all of these concessions, they've looked their best this season when they've let Nash run the offense and work through Dwight or Pau. But they can't do that as much as I'm sure they'd like too, because then Kobe wouldn't be getting his 30 shots a game.

All the while, he can't post up Dwight because he sucks now, he can't use him the pick and roll because he's awful at that too, they don't have any shooters except for Nash (who is actually playing pretty damn well, because he's some kind of ageless wizard), he can't post up Pau because he's garbage down there, they look pretty good running the pick and roll with Pau, but he obviously doesn't want to be there anymore, Kobe has no concept of aging gracefully for the good of the team, they have no bench, they had no training camp, and he's getting no credit at all for Earl Clark finally looking like the NBA player his body and skills suggest he should be.

It's pandemonium in LA!

Look, Adelman is a hell of a coach, I've watched him coach for 20 or so years now, and he has adjusted to different rosters. D'Antoni had his moment in the sun, and the success wasn't so great that he can live off it. I place as much importance on coaching as anyone I've met, and D'Antoni in NY, and now LA is one of the worst high-profile coaches I've seen. Look at Melo now, an MVP candidate. Look at Woodson, he's been a REAL coach, and I'm excited about the Knicks for the first time in a long time.

I doubt I'm qualified to be a coach, I'm a ****ing fan. But with that being said, I'm an NBA fanatic with above average intelligence, and relative to other coaches D'Antoni is a bum. It's incredible, really. You'd think he'd have won a title or 2 considering how stubbornly he sticks to his philosophy, but whatever, his coaching career is almost done, and he sure as hell won't be back in NY, so I'm happy for that!

[STATUTORY]

Kobe has no concept of aging gracefully for the good of the team

That's just lazy thinking. ignoring present evidence the narrative defaults to Kobe should be submitting to the younger superstar. But their current play on the court has not at all indicated that Dwight is ready to takeover or at a level where he can demand Kobe to defer to him.

How can you on one hand argue that Dwight is compromised then still act like he should be the focal point of this team?

Dwight is just a piece of the puzzle here with 3 other players that are/were as good as Dwight at some point of their career and he needs to modify his game to fit in. If he was more open to pick and rolls and exploiting his speed with more of a faceup game then the situation of him and Pau coexisting wouldn't be so dire.

[Scoooter]

Look, Adelman is a hell of a coach, I've watched him coach for 20 or so years now, and he has adjusted to different rosters.
I think Adelman's a pretty good coach, but the pinnacle of his career was one Finals appearance over 20 years ago. What's so great about him that plenty of other guys don't have? He got jobbed out of a WCF series by the league? So did D'antoni.

D'Antoni had his moment in the sun, and the success wasn't so great that he can live off it. I place as much importance on coaching as anyone I've met...
When it suits your arguments you do. But as we've already established, the Knicks making the playoffs under D'antoni had nothing to do with him...unless you really do put "as much importance on coaching as anyone", else you'd be forced to give him some credit. You're entitled to any opinion you'd like, but don't expect me to respect an argument that isn't logically consistent. :confusedshrug:

...and D'Antoni in NY, and now LA is one of the worst high-profile coaches I've seen.
I say the same thing for Jerry Sloan. Two of the greatest to ever play the game, and he manages two good years out of a million.

Look at Melo now, an MVP candidate. Look at Woodson, he's been a REAL coach, and I'm excited about the Knicks for the first time in a long time.
I anticipate them flaming out in the playoffs, as is always the case with Melo and Woodson. The fizzle has already started compared to the first month or so. But I hope I'm wrong.


I doubt I'm qualified to be a coach, I'm a ****ing fan. But with that being said, I'm an NBA fanatic with above average intelligence, and relative to other coaches D'Antoni is a bum. It's incredible, really. You'd think he'd have won a title or 2 considering how stubbornly he sticks to his philosophy, but whatever, his coaching career is almost done, and he sure as hell won't be back in NY, so I'm happy for that!
Everything's relative. Relative to "other" coaches Rick Adelman, George Karl, Jerry Sloan, Doc Rivers, et al are all bums. Just about everyone is a bum compared to Phil Jackson. I don't see how D'antoni, with multiple Conference Finals apearances, is anymore of a bum than some of the nameless losers who have been coaching teams like the Bucks and the Wizards and the Clippers for the last several decades.

[Scoooter]

:rolleyes: yea he's actively waiting for Dwight to turn around just to bounce the ball off the back of his head for kicks. Or maybe it's cause Dwight's inability to get the ball of traditional PnR sets or post ups that's forcing Kobe to find alternative passing lanes.
Well that's not a very smart move.

[Scoooter]

That's just lazy thinking. ignoring present evidence the narrative defaults to Kobe should be submitting to the younger superstar. But their current play on the court has not at all indicated that Dwight is ready to takeover or at a level where he can demand Kobe to defer to him.
Except that anytime they've looked anything like a decent team this season has been when Kobe deferred to Dwight and Dwight had a big game. I'd say my "lazy thinking" tracks more closely to reality than your blind homerism.


How can you on one hand argue that Dwight is compromised then still act like he should be the focal point of this team?
I think his being compromised will get better over time. He can't string together multiple good games right now, but he's shown flashes.


Dwight is just a piece of the puzzle here with 3 other players that are/were as good as Dwight at some point of their career and he needs to modify his game to fit in. If he was more open to pick and rolls and exploiting his speed with more of a faceup game then the situation of him and Pau coexisting wouldn't be so dire.
I agree. Kobe isn't the only one who should make some changes. And someone, or multiple someones, needs to slap Dwight in the face for those free throws. Heinous.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think Adelman's a pretty good coach, but the pinnacle of his career was one Finals appearance over 20 years ago. What's so great about him that plenty of other guys don't have? He got jobbed out of a WCF series by the league? So did D'antoni.

When it suits your arguments you do. But as we've already established, the Knicks making the playoffs under D'antoni had nothing to do with him...unless you really do put "as much importance on coaching as anyone", else you'd be forced to give him some credit. You're entitled to any opinion you'd like, but don't expect me to respect an argument that isn't logically consistent. :confusedshrug:

I say the same thing for Jerry Sloan. Two of the greatest to ever play the game, and he manages two good years out of a million.

I anticipate them flaming out in the playoffs, as is always the case with Melo and Woodson. The fizzle has already started compared to the first month or so. But I hope I'm wrong.


Everything's relative. Relative to "other" coaches Rick Adelman, George Karl, Jerry Sloan, Doc Rivers, et al are all bums. Just about everyone is a bum compared to Phil Jackson. I don't see how D'antoni, with multiple Conference Finals apearances, is anymore of a bum than some of the nameless losers who have been coaching teams like the Bucks and the Wizards and the Clippers for the last several decades.

Adelman has adjusted to different rosters. Compare those early 90's Blazers to the Kings. Hell, right now, he's doing more with less than D'Antoni could dream of. Since leaving Phoenix, he's done less with more. The guy is simply not a very good coach.

Oh, and are you defending favoring Lin over Melo? Cause I'd love to debate that.

[Robster89]

With all of these ignorant threads about Dwight, I feel it necessary to create my own. Anyone who actually WATCHED Dwight in Orlando knows these things, but here are some things that will prove this is NOT the same Dwight that averaged 23/14 in Orlando. He could create his shot, and he had to in Orlando. Can he right now? I don't know. He's nowhere near the athlete he was on a consistent basis, he's not playing as hard, and his coach is not putting him in a position to succeed, unlike Stan Van Gundy who was a fine coach, actually a better coach than his brother Jeff, and much better than Pringles.

Here are 2 ordinary games for 2011 Dwight where you can see him regularly creating his own shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=1m09s

Some more from the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=1m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=2m05s

Not an unusual game for him by any stretch. And here's another game that was also by no stretch unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=2m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=2m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=3m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=3m27s

Just 2 games...and by no means were they his best.

You can't average 23/14 by being spoonfed, especially without an above average playmaker. But that's just offense, his defense has been nowhere near where it was. He's consistently late on his rotations, so while he's among the leaders in blocks, this is not the Orlando Dwight defensively.

I question how long some of you kids have watched basketball, or how many teams you watch, because if you think Dwight could have the success he did in Orlando, and perform the way he has this year while being the same player, then you clearly don't know the game.

Oh, and D'Antoni does deserve a lot of blame. I watched him in NY, and the guy is a moron, don't try to dispute it. When he doesn't have a roster with one of the best PG ever in his prime running everything, he's clueless. Dwight's problems right now go beyond the coach, but he'd be better with just about any coach, and so would the Lakers.


That's really good analysis.
I'm a Laker fan, and I remember the 09 finals well.
I seem to recall that Dwight had worked with Hakeem during the offseason, and I was impressed with how much he had improved.
I agree with you that he is not the same, ... yet.
It still remains to be seem if he will get back to where he was.
I think Laker fans calling for him to be traded are nuts.
D'Antoni needs to go.
Bring Phil back by offering him a piece of ownership.

[Scoooter]

Adelman has adjusted to different rosters. Compare those early 90's Blazers to the Kings. Hell, right now, he's doing more with less than D'Antoni could dream of. Since leaving Phoenix, he's done less with more. The guy is simply not a very good coach.
Adelman is a good coach, I already said that. And he also hasn't done shit in 20 years.

D'antoni has been making adjustments, on the fly, and nothing the fans want him to do actually works. I haven't heard one cogent, insightful suggestion that the Lakers haven't attempted. Pau in the low post? Seen it. Meanwhile, the Nash pick and roll is still a killer, when they get to run it.


Oh, and are you defending favoring Lin over Melo? Cause I'd love to debate that.
I'm was defending the Knicks winning games over their prima donna, perennial-flame out purposely sabotaging the coach. Which is exactly what was going on this time last year. I tend to not tether myself to big names, I just want the Knicks to win. But to each his own. :confusedshrug:

[STATUTORY]

Except that anytime they've looked anything like a decent team this season has been when Kobe deferred to Dwight and Dwight had a big game. I'd say my "lazy thinking" tracks more closely to reality than your blind homerism.


It's a question of chicken and egg. You claim the games we have won was when kobe "deferred" to dwight causing dwight to have a big game, but it looks to me they are games where dwight is actually playing well and thus kobe is passing to him to exploit that advantage. I think Dwight' inconsistency is coming from him and not from kobe holding him back.

look at last 2 games, Kobe took a lot of shots relative to Dwight so it fits neatly into your construct of Kobe keeping Dwight down but in actuality it was Dwight's foul trouble that kept him out of the action. So even guys like Clarke had more shots than him.

[Scoooter]

It's a question of chicken and egg. You claim the games we have won was when kobe "deferred" to dwight causing dwight to have a big game, but it looks to me they are games where dwight is actually playing well and thus kobe is passing to him to exploit that advantage. I think Dwight' inconsistency is coming from him and not from kobe holding him back.
I'd say it's a combination of both. Because real life is complicated.

[Money 23]

It's a question of chicken and egg. You claim the games we have won was when kobe "deferred" to dwight causing dwight to have a big game, but it looks to me they are games where dwight is actually playing well and thus kobe is passing to him to exploit that advantage. I think Dwight' inconsistency is coming from him and not from kobe holding him back.
Donowrongbe

[Scoooter]

Lol.

[STATUTORY]

Donowrongbe
dude I seen you defend Space Jam as a cinematic masterpiece.

[Money 23]

dude I seen you defend Space Jam as a cinematic masterpiece.
It's up there with the likes of Citizen Kane, though. MJ got robbed of best actor in a sci-fi drama in 1996.

Get your Roger Ebert game up, son.

:pimp:

[bdreason]

Lakers were dumb to trade for Howard after the drama he created in Orlando... especially considering he didn't want to be traded to L.A.


If he doesn't sign an extension before the trade deadline, Lakers have to trade him. If they don't, and he walks, they won't be contenders for another decade.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Adelman is a good coach, I already said that. And he also hasn't done shit in 20 years.

D'antoni has been making adjustments, on the fly, and nothing the fans want him to do actually works. I haven't heard one cogent, insightful suggestion that the Lakers haven't attempted. Pau in the low post? Seen it. Meanwhile, the Nash pick and roll is still a killer, when they get to run it.


I'm was defending the Knicks winning games over their prima donna, perennial-flame out purposely sabotaging the coach. Which is exactly what was going on this time last year. I tend to not tether myself to big names, I just want the Knicks to win. But to each his own. :confusedshrug:

I gave D'Antoni time, I said that he didn't have good rosters until Stoudemire and that I'd give him time to adjust to Stoudemire/Melo, well, 18-24 vs the 18-6 Woodson got, and it proved to me that he has NO ability to adjust, and we're seeing the same thing in LA. I'm just thankful he's out of New York.

Face it, Pringles is a below average coach. The sooner he is fired, the sooner, Dwight and the Lakers will start to play better. Kobe(who was a D'Antoni fan in Italy) knows his style isn't working.

[Scoooter]

I gave D'Antoni time, I said that he didn't have good rosters until Stoudemire and that I'd give him time to adjust to Stoudemire/Melo, well, 18-24 vs the 18-6 Woodson got, and it proved to me that he has NO ability to adjust, and we're seeing the same thing in LA. I'm just thankful he's out of New York.
Also, Melo stopped trying to get him fired (mission accomplished) and started trying to play well. I'd say that was a factor. And let's not pretend Woodson is some protean, formless skin walker. Iso-Joe turned into iso-Melo, and they're chucking more threes than ever. I guess you haven't seen a Knicks game in the last month or so, because they could use some "adjustments".


Face it, Pringles is a below average coach. The sooner he is fired, the sooner, Dwight and the Lakers will start to play better. Kobe(who was a D'Antoni fan in Italy) knows his style isn't working.
Except they aren't really using his style, and on the few occasions they do, they look a lot better. And what is an average coach? I'd have see some measurables before entertaining that sort of inanity.

[Mr Exlax]

With all of these ignorant threads about Dwight, I feel it necessary to create my own. Anyone who actually WATCHED Dwight in Orlando knows these things, but here are some things that will prove this is NOT the same Dwight that averaged 23/14 in Orlando. He could create his shot, and he had to in Orlando. Can he right now? I don't know. He's nowhere near the athlete he was on a consistent basis, he's not playing as hard, and his coach is not putting him in a position to succeed, unlike Stan Van Gundy who was a fine coach, actually a better coach than his brother Jeff, and much better than Pringles.

Here are 2 ordinary games for 2011 Dwight where you can see him regularly creating his own shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=1m09s

Some more from the same game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=1m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaBfWMNePCw&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=197#t=2m05s

Not an unusual game for him by any stretch. And here's another game that was also by no stretch unusual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=1m28s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=2m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=2m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=3m00s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga1b87T0KYc&list=UU9WYFilouknOqaEnLuEbVww&index=198#t=3m27s

Just 2 games...and by no means were they his best.

You can't average 23/14 by being spoonfed, especially without an above average playmaker. But that's just offense, his defense has been nowhere near where it was. He's consistently late on his rotations, so while he's among the leaders in blocks, this is not the Orlando Dwight defensively.

I question how long some of you kids have watched basketball, or how many teams you watch, because if you think Dwight could have the success he did in Orlando, and perform the way he has this year while being the same player, then you clearly don't know the game.

Oh, and D'Antoni does deserve a lot of blame. I watched him in NY, and the guy is a moron, don't try to dispute it. When he doesn't have a roster with one of the best PG ever in his prime running everything, he's clueless. Dwight's problems right now go beyond the coach, but he'd be better with just about any coach, and so would the Lakers.


Future repped every time I see your freaking name. :bowdown:

[AussieG]

He hasn't been utilised properly in LA.. by everyone, management, coach, players etc.

But as happens a lot of the time in bad situations.. everyone is looking out for themselves. For Dwight.. it's not all LA's fault.. maybe some of it is the back injury.. some of it is Dwight himself.. his immature attitude etc.. I guess everyone can share some of the blame.

Pretty sure though.. that in a system that fits him better.. better chemistry etc.. he'd be doing much better. Back problems or not. And centre's are much more dependant on that.. compared to perimeter players.. that get more touches and more room to work with. If he does get traded.. whoever gets him will get a much better player than LA has.. because he'll learn from it.. and the system and team will fit him better. Which would probably piss Lakers fans off even more.

[Nick Young]

He hasn't been utilised properly in LA.. by everyone, management, coach, players etc.

But as happens a lot of the time in bad situations.. everyone is looking out for themselves. For Dwight.. it's not all LA's fault.. maybe some of it is the back injury.. some of it is Dwight himself.. his immature attitude etc.. I guess everyone can share some of the blame.

Pretty sure though.. that in a system that fits him better.. better chemistry etc.. he'd be doing much better. Back problems or not. And centre's are much more dependant on that.. compared to perimeter players.. that get more touches and more room to work with. If he does get traded.. whoever gets him will get a much better player than LA has.. because he'll learn from it.. and the system and team will fit him better. Which would probably piss Lakers fans off even more.
Just like Howard learned from Nash how to shoot free throws?

Just like Howard learned post game and counters and footwork from Hakeem?

Just like Howard learned from every coach he had to keep the ball up high instead of bring it needlessly down low?

Just like Howard learned how to drop step baseline when it's open instead of just spin into traffic every time?

Just like Howard learned to not cause media drama in LA after what happened to him in Orlando?


It there's one consistent thing about Howard, it's that he doesn't learn and doesn't change his ways.

[STATUTORY]

Just like Howard learned from Nash how to shoot free throws?

Just like Howard learned post game and counters and footwork from Hakeem?

Just like Howard learned from every coach he had to keep the ball up high instead of bring it needlessly down low?

Just like Howard learned how to drop step baseline when it's open instead of just spin into traffic every time?

Just like Howard learned to not cause media drama in LA after what happened to him in Orlando?


It there's one consistent thing about Howard, it's that he doesn't learn and doesn't change his ways.

don't forget he hasn't learned how to properly strap on a pair of rubber after the first 5 baby mamas


I'd say it's a combination of both. Because real life is complicated.
I only took an absolute position cause you did.

[AussieG]

He doesn't need to learn anything else, and he's still a very good basketball player. Nothing close to Shaq, Hakeem or Ewing.. but still one of the best C's in the league.

[longtime lurker]

All the while, he can't post up Dwight because he sucks now, he can't use him the pick and roll because he's awful at that too

It's funny that you say all this yet can't see that Dwight's problem is because of Dwight and no one else!

[longtime lurker]

He doesn't need to learn anything else, and he's still a very good basketball player. Nothing close to Shaq, Hakeem or Ewing.. but still one of the best C's in the league.

Actually he has a lot to learn when it comes to he mental part of the game and what it takes to win a championship.

[Scoooter]

It's funny that you say all this yet can't see that Dwight's problem is because of Dwight and no one else!
I never said that, but I won't make fun of you in case you have some sort of learning disability or something.

[longtime lurker]

I never said that, but I won't make fun of you in case you have some sort of learning disability or something.

I just quoted your post word for word, if you want I can post the whole thing but I only posted the part related to Dwight. And don't try to get snarky

[Scoooter]

I just quoted your post word for word, if you want I can post the whole thing but I only posted the part related to Dwight. And don't try to get snarky
You quoted the post wherein I aid Dwight sucked. Nowhere in what you quoted did I attribute any blame.

[longtime lurker]

You quoted the post wherein I aid Dwight sucked. Nowhere in what you quoted did I attribute any blame.

Yes I quoted the where you said Dwight sucks and I asked you why wouldn't someone admit that Dwight is the problem and stop blaming the coach or Kobe. It wasn't necessarily directed at you more a general question of if Dwight is limited offensively then how is anyone else to blame?

[tomtucker]

he used to be great....but what does that help (the lakers) now ?

[Nick Young]

Roughly 1/3 of the possession Dwight turns it over, other roughly 1/3 he gets fouled and shoots roughly 50% from the line, other 1/3 he gets a shot off and shoots roughly 60%(being generous here) from the field.

so calculation, thats 1/3*0+1/3*1+1/3*2*.6= roughly .74 pts per possession.

the league average is .85 pts per possession with postups.

just for some reference, the best players in post up points per possesions(with at least 80 attemps) are :
Kobe and Durant tied first at 1.12 , melo .97, B.Lopez .96



Yet dwight wants more postups :facepalm :facepalm

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[STATUTORY]

Dwight makes me miss the kwame brown era. Guy is atrocious turd in the post.

dwight doesn't seem to understand the objective of the team is to maximize production of all players and to win. Not to showcase his sorry ass post moves.

Orlando dwight is gone. All we got is fat elvis now.

[Nick Young]

Dwight is touching the ball just as much as he did on Orlando with more talent surrounding him, and his post ups are well below the league average in terms of efficiency. What more does this clown want. He is playing with a player who statistically is one of the best post up players in the entire league, Kobe Bryant, and demanding more shots and taking away Kobe's post up oppurtunities as well:facepalm

And Mamba shooting too much is the problem here?

Dwight camping out and hogging the paint with his scrub level inefficiency is the problem.

[Scoooter]

Yes I quoted the where you said Dwight sucks and I asked you why wouldn't someone admit that Dwight is the problem and stop blaming the coach or Kobe. It wasn't necessarily directed at you more a general question of if Dwight is limited offensively then how is anyone else to blame?
Because it's a team sport and what team mates do affect one another. How are you asking questions that are this stupid, and then acting so supremely confident about it?

Dwight has problems, D'antoni has problems, Gasol has problems, Kobe has problems, the Lakers have problems.

[SCdac]

Offensively what Howard is missing is fundamental offense to fall back on, and natural finesse around the basket. If this season is any indication of what Dwight will start to become a few years from now (at 30-31 years old), it's quite alarming IMO. This is a player who has regressed before, and back problems can be debilitating.

So much of his game relies on athletic ability, not world-class moves and finishes. He's not the playmaking type and his dribbling is average at best. He has no reliable jump shot whatsoever, which is an overall weakness (not necessarily causing the Lakers to lose), and it's getting to the point where he might forget about improving that aspect of his game altogether. He took 120+ shots from 10 feet-and-out in 2011, which is good (bank shots and stuff), but that shrunk to about 20 shots last year. From that distance this season, Howard has shot horribly.

He doesn't have the speed and normal explosiveness of that past few years, but, clearly his game is limited with or without it... I think even a casual fan could point out Howard is an All Star who has great strengths and great weaknesses.

Regardless of his weaknesses, I've been pretty adamant in other threads that he needs more touches, more lobs, more cuts to basket using multiple screens, get him in transition, etc. It doesn't have to be pure post ups (like we saw so much from him in 2011). From a basketball standpoint, it's clear that's how the Lakers will be successful, just getting him integrated in general. Howard has had a few high scoring games (28+) and all in wins I think. Kobe, and D'Antoni alike, don't seem to have the patience for Howard's back-to-the-basket game though. To quote Andrew Bynum, "he's going to have to get accustomed to playing with Kobe and not touching the ball every single play". And that's the truth.

If we're measuring a player by his greatest season, Howard was certainly best in 2011, amazing at times considering his defensive impact. In that year's MVP discussion (no competition at his position), but in the grand scheme his offense is nothing that will go down as legendary. As far as recent examples, I think Howard's offensive impact (not style) in 2011 is comparable to 25 year old Jermaine O'Neal (2004) and 26 year old Elton Brand (2006). All of them were at 27-30 Usage % , scored 20-25% of the teams total points @ 20-24 ppg, grabbed around 3 offensive rebounds per game, and played around the same minutes. In MVP voting, Howard was #2, O'Neal was #3, and Brand was #7. Howard scored most efficiently (easily the best dunker of the three) but his Assist-to-Turnover ratio and FT% were significantly worse.