Building a Franchise: Kyrie Irving or Russell Westbrook

[SilkkTheShocker]

Who would your rather build around?

[Zedja]

Irving

[KyrieTheFuture]

<----------

[shady6121]

Westbrook since he's proven to be more durable.

[Pushxx]

Kyrie.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Westbrook since he's proven to be more durable.

He has also proven to be mentally r.etarded. :oldlol:

[Budadiiii]

lol an undersized/one dimensional dude vs a guy who does it all.

A guy who is injury prone vs a dude who hasn't missed a game in his life.


An average competitor vs the biggest competitor in the sport.


Give me Westbrook. Btw, this same exact thread was literally made last week and the majority picked Westbrook for obvious reasons, but since he's coming off his worst game of the season, delusional idiots say Irving because he dropped 40 against the Celtics. :facepalm



****ing idiots, all of you.

[Jolokia]

Kyrie

[ganja0710]

I love Russ, but I'd probably choose Kyrie as well.

[DukeDelonte13]

gotta go with Kryie.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kyrie and i don't think twice about it.

Has that rare ability to be a go to scorer while also having control of the team/making smart plays

he's like a pass first shoot first point guard.

Kyrie has the potential to a 28 5 8 guy during his prime

[Budadiiii]

I love Russ, but I'd probably choose Kyrie as well.
How dare you. When Russell is playing possessed in the playoffs getting triple doubles and winning games you'll :facepalm at the fact that you made this post.


Someones gonna bump this thread in 5 years and the people who said Irving(including you) will simply laugh in hindsight of how stupid they were in that moment.

[Budadiiii]

Kyrie and i don't think twice about it.

Has that rare ability to be a go to scorer while also having control of the team/making smart plays

he's like a pass first shoot first point guard.

Kyrie has the potential to a 28 5 8 guy during his prime
:roll:


Delusion is such a sad trait to have.

[DukeDelonte13]

How dare you. When Russell is playing possessed in the playoffs getting triple doubles and winning games you'll :facepalm at the fact that you made this post.


Someones gonna bump this thread in 5 years and the people who said Irving(including you) will simply laugh in hindsight of how stupid they were in that moment.


somebody has a man crush!!

[Pushxx]

lol an undersized/one dimensional dude vs a guy who does it all.

A guy who is injury prone vs a dude who hasn't missed a game in his life.


An average competitor vs the biggest competitor in the sport.


Give me Westbrook. Btw, this same exact thread was literally made last week and the majority picked Westbrook for obvious reasons, but since he's coming off his worst game of the season, delusional idiots say Irving because he dropped 40 against the Celtics. :facepalm



****ing idiots, all of you.

It's definitely not because as an 18-year old he averaged 19/4/5 on 47% FG and 40% 3-PT.

Or that he is has better basketball IQ, jumpshot, and efficiency. Or that he scores 24 points on 19 shots a game with no help around him, better than Westbrook has ever scored despite being a score-first guard.

[28renyoy]

Kyrie. Hell he's a better player than Westbrook right now

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kyrie is undersized? He is like 6'3.

And I guarantee if he was playing with KD, he will be doing his best to get him the ball. Not trying to chuck jumpers depite being a vastly inferior scorer to KD

[TheMarkMadsen]

:roll:


Delusion is such a sad trait to have.


Kyrie is already a better shooter than Westbrooke, already averages more points, shoots higher % from the field and from 3 and from the line.

Westbrooke averages more shots per game, yet Kyrie averages more points per game.

Kyrie is shooting 47%. Westbrooke 42%

Kyrie averages 6 assist per game passing to alonzo gee & dion waiters :lol

Westbrooke only averages 2 more assist per game while playing alongside the best scorer in the game KD, and 2 other guys who can go for 15+ppg on any given night

[ZaaaaaH]

Kyrie and i don't think twice about it.

Has that rare ability to be a go to scorer while also having control of the team/making smart plays

he's like a pass first shoot first point guard.

Kyrie has the potential to a 28 5 8 guy during his prime



That would be WB Peak prime Potential

Kyrie's would be like 24 4 9.5

But not everyone maxs their potential.

[TheMarkMadsen]

That would be WB Peak prime Potential

Kyrie's would be like 24 4 9.5

But not everyone maxs their potential.


Kyrie is already averaging 24ppg 4rpg 6apg and he's only 20 years old..

nowhere close to his peak yet and is basically putting up the same numbers (minus 3 assist) as you predict he will at his absolute best.

He has the worst supporting cast in the league yet still averages 6apg, when he finally gets some help around him that will surely go up.

Eventually teams will have to gameplan for more than just Kyrie, who is still averaging 24ppg on 47% shooting while being the focal point of the defense..

you're underrating his potential

[SilkkTheShocker]

You can also count on Westbrick to do something incredibly stupid whenever he tries to takeover. Talented player, but his basketball IQ is extremely low. He honestly might be one of the dumbest players in the league.

[Budadiiii]

All of your idiotic opinions will change come playoff time. FG% is the only stat you IDIOTS pay attention to now a days. Jesus ****ing Christ. :facepalm


Comparing Kyrie to Westbrook is like comparing Melo to LeBron. Just absurd.



Westbrook affects the game so much more and will always be a bigger winner than Irving. Always. You idiots just like flashy scorers. "OMG KYRIE EXPELLED ALL HIS ENERGY ON OFFENSE ADN DROPPED 40!!!!! HErrpppp derp!!!!"


"HES BETTER THAN WESTBROOK NOW!!! HERRRpppp / DERPP"


:facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

All of your idiotic opinions will change come playoff time. FG% is the only stat you IDIOTS pay attention to now a days. Jesus ****ing Christ. :facepalm


Comparing Kyrie to Westbrook is like comparing Melo to LeBron. Just absurd.



Westbrook affects the game so much more and will always be a bigger winner than Irving. Always. You idiots just like flashy scorers. OMG KYRIE EXPELLED ALL HIS ENERGY ON OFFENSE ADN DROPPED 40!!!!! HErrpppp derp!!!!


HES BETTER THAN WESTBROOK NOW!!! HERRRpppp / DERPP


:facepalm


You don't think OKC is a title contender with Kyrie and Durant? That team would be insanely hard to defend, especially in the clutch. Teams dare Westbrick to takeover. They actually hope for it.

[air mamba]

im going with kyrie easily, he would average wayy more assists if he's teammates could finish around the rim and knock down shots.

[28renyoy]

Budadiii, shut the hell up. If Westbrook didn't have Durant on his team, he would be a 20/5/5 38 fg% 48 TS% type player. His basketball iq might be the lowest in the league for a non center

[jimmy77x]

kyrie and its not even close.

[TheMarkMadsen]

All of your idiotic opinions will change come playoff time. FG% is the only stat you IDIOTS pay attention to now a days. Jesus ****ing Christ. :facepalm


Comparing Kyrie to Westbrook is like comparing Melo to LeBron. Just absurd.



Westbrook affects the game so much more and will always be a bigger winner than Irving. Always. You idiots just like flashy scorers. "OMG KYRIE EXPELLED ALL HIS ENERGY ON OFFENSE ADN DROPPED 40!!!!! HErrpppp derp!!!!"


"HES BETTER THAN WESTBROOK NOW!!! HERRRpppp / DERPP"


:facepalm


what do you not understand, They shoot the same amount of FG per game yet Kyrie is able to make his at a WAY higher clip than Westbrooke.

Also, Westbrooke isn't even the main focus of the defense when teams game plan for OKC, all the attention goes towards Durant.

If Westbrook & Kyrie switched teams i gurantee you that WB would be averaging like 26ppg 4rpg 4apg on 38% from the field

[I<3NBA]

Irving. Because retards don't win ball games.

[Budadiiii]

what do you not understand, They shoot the same amount of FG per game yet Kyrie is able to make his at a WAY higher clip than Westbrooke.

Also, Westbrooke isn't even the main focus of the defense when teams game plan for OKC, all the attention goes towards Durant.

If Westbrook & Kyrie switched teams i gurantee you that WB would be averaging like 26ppg 4rpg 4apg on 38% from the field
Wait... so you're only judging these guys based on half of a season?


Idiot confirmed.


And don't you dare say Irving is having a better year. Like I said, you idiots don't realize how top heavy the Thunder are. The team is absolute shit outside those two. All inconsistent one dimensional players. This team over achieves because of how hard Westbrook and Durant work. You think Durant is doing this alone? I guarantee a 24 year old Kyrie on this team is no where near as good as they are with Westbrook. You're the one who doesn't understand how winning happens. Which is the point of picking a franchise player... to win games... but I guess FG% tells the whole story.

[SilkkTheShocker]

There is no excuse at all for Westbrick to be shooting more than Durant. Absolutely none. Irving and Durant would immediately go down as the best shooting tandem of time. Trying to guard those players would be hell on opposing teams.

[Pushxx]

Yes. Keep calling everyone idiots, Budadiiii. That will convince them!

[Budadiiii]

Yes. Keep calling everyone idiots, Budadiiii. That will convince them!
I'll let the rings convince them. Watch the level Russell plays at in the playoffs this year and then come talk to me. Don't worry, I'll be sure to bump this thread in June.

Most of you will make an excuse for Irving saying his team sucks yada yada yada.


That will be his excuse for his whole career. This guy won't win a thing.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wait... so you're only judging these guys based on half of a season?


Idiot confirmed.


No i'm judging based off the fact that in the past 4 years WB hasn't shown that he can do anything better than Kyrie has shown in a year and a half.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and claim that if Kyrie & WB switched roles in the finals last year that OKC would have a ring.

There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for WB taking 120FGA in the finals and Durant only taking 104FGA.

Durant averaged 31ppg on 56% in the finals.

Westbrook averaged 27ppg on 43%

Westbrook shot 16 more times than Durant in the finals and made 5 less shots.

If OKC had a point guard who was able to realize that 31ppg on 56%> 27ppg on 43% they might have won more than 1 game in the finals.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I'll let the rings convince them. Watch the level Russell plays at in the playoffs this year and then come talk to me. Don't worry, I'll be sure to bump this thread in June.

Most of you will make an excuse for Irving saying his team sucks yada yada yada.


That will be his excuse for his whole career. This guy won't win a thing.

Replace Irving with Westbrick and the Cavs still are terrible. They also would have almost no one to spread the floor with Westbrick.

[Doranku]

The only thing that makes me question my decision a little bit is the fact that Kyrie seems to be injury prone while Westbrook is an ironman. Still, though, I'm taking Kyrie. Dude is 20 years old and is already one of the most composed/clutch player in the league.

[air mamba]

kyrie wins easily, westbrook is just a scoring pg that shoots 40% with the inability to run your offense. the thunder would have at least 2 rings if they had paul, rose, williams or rondo.

[Budadiiii]

Replace Irving with Westbrick and the Cavs still are terrible. They also would have almost no one to spread the floor with Westbrick.
Westbrook is a winner. He does everything it takes to win. Just stop it, Kyrie has no where near the physical/mental attributes Westbrook has. No where near the level of will power. Kyrie is a wimp compared to WB. Irving hasn't proved shit expect for the fact that he can expend all his energy on offense(while also getting burned equally on defense) and lead his team to one of the worst records in the league. This dude will always be a loser, plain and simple.


I know winners, and I know losers.


Irving isn't winning anything either as "the guy" or a second option. He's a ****ing loser and will continue to drop pretty impressive scoring numbers on lottery teams. Sorry, it just doesn't impress me. What Westbrook is doing is on another level, he plays with much more expectations/pressure and teams play OKC so much harder than they play the Cavs. I like winners. Give me WB.

[brandonislegend]

Irving over Francis/Marbury with lower IQ, I mean Westbrick. Poor Durant has to carry this guy night in and night out and still Westbrick shoots more shots than the BEST SCORER IN THE NBA. What the **** is wrong with this guy shoots dumbass shots never passes to wide open Durant in transition instead pulls up with 2 guys guarding him and BRICKS.

You keep saying Westbrook is a winner, okay he has the best player in the league and some of the best defensive players in the league. If you swapped him and Irving Westbrook would shoot like 35% FG, he shoots 41% with the ****ing best player in the universe right now getting attention. Kyrie as a 19/20 year old already shoots a higher percentage from EVERYWHERE FT 3PT FG, on top of that he has no one on his team to take any pressure off him, Westbrook will never shoot percentages like that for his whole career.

GIVE ME MR. 4TH QUARTER ALL DAY.

[brandonislegend]

Why do you keep bringing up the finals? The Heat have already said their strategy was to let Westbrook do his thing and keep Durant out of the game, they knew if they let low IQ Westbrook get what he wanted and took everyone else out of the game they would win and it worked perfectly, this guy is a retard on the court I don't even understand how his IQ is so low.

[andgar923]

Westbrook is overrated as hell. I'd like to see him try to carry a team on his own.

Irving any day

[SilkkTheShocker]

Irving over Francis/Marbury with lower IQ, I mean Westbrick. Poor Durant has to carry this guy night in and night out and still Westbrick shoots more shots than the BEST SCORER IN THE NBA. What the **** is wrong with this guy shoots dumbass shots never passes to wide open Durant in transition instead pulls up with 2 guys guarding him and BRICKS.

You keep saying Westbrook is a winner, okay he has the best player in the league and some of the best defensive players in the league. If you swapped him and Irving Westbrook would shoot like 35% FG, he shoots 41% with the ****ing best player in the universe right now getting attention. Kyrie as a 19/20 year old already shoots a higher percentage from EVERYWHERE FT 3PT FG, on top of that he has no one on his team to take any pressure off him, Westbrook will never shoot percentages like that for his whole career.

GIVE ME MR. 4TH QUARTER ALL DAY.

:oldlol:

[shortsoptional]

Really like both players...neither is a bad guy to start your franchise with. But I'll go with Uncle Drew just because i think Westbrook relies more on his athleticism and that will fade over time. If I had to win a ball-game today...right now... I might go Westbrook, but Irving has already shown that he's very good in late game situations.

[Dbrog]

Difficult to call since Kyrie's shooting %s are so outstanding. I think Westbrook would be able to carry a team by himself to the playoffs (though they would never win with him as lead dog). However, I think Kyrie actually has potential to win as lead dog. It would have to be a team set up like the 2000s Pistons though.

edit: I think Kyrie is the choice though since he seems like more of a leader who brings his teammates up whenever he speaks. Also, he has that killer drive to get better and the guts to go against the best (see USA vids of him and Kobe).

[imdaman99]

the logic of everyone :

give me the 20 year old who is guaranteed to have at least 20 wins a season :rockon:

whatever, enjoy your 20 win seasons kyrie.

westbrook on the cavs would equal more wins in a weak east, i dont care if he has dion waiters or gee. when westbrook played without durant (granted its not a big sample), he led them to 3-1 and this was before ibaka could hit a jumper. westbrook was let loose, had like a 40 pt, 15 reb, 9 assist game in a win. but thats ok, you have a 20 year old that can be clutch in the 20 wins he wins a year. oh yeah, and he likes taking games off with injury. what's not to like about that?????? :bowdown:

[midatlantic09]

Kyrie.

Wasn't a dfficult decision for me.

[BuffaloBill]

Kyrie Irving

[TheMarkMadsen]

the logic of everyone :

give me the 20 year old who is guaranteed to have at least 20 wins a season :rockon:

whatever, enjoy your 20 win seasons kyrie.

westbrook on the cavs would equal more wins in a weak east, i dont care if he has dion waiters or gee. when westbrook played without durant (granted its not a big sample), he led them to 3-1 and this was before ibaka could hit a jumper. westbrook was let loose, had like a 40 pt, 15 reb, 9 assist game in a win. but thats ok, you have a 20 year old that can be clutch in the 20 wins he wins a year. oh yeah, and he likes taking games off with injury. what's not to like about that?????? :bowdown:

Your logic:

Give me the guy who plays with a top 2 player, a top 10 PF and has played with a top 10-15 shooting guard for the past 2 seasons because he wins more games.

And pass on the guy who you just admitted was clutch, who's best player currently playing beside him is Alonzo gee, who shoots lights out, averages more points than westbrooke on better percantage a whole being the ONE MAN THAT THE DEFENSE IS GAMPEPLANNING TO STOP.

When teams play OKC their goal is keep the ball out of Durants hands and keep the ball in westbrooke hands because OKC is more likely to lose with westbrooke being the focal point of the offense

[CavaliersFTW]

LOL @ Budadiiii having a massive coronary because everyone essentially agrees that to start a franchise you pick Kyrie >>> Westbrook (and it's not even close)

[brandonislegend]

the logic of everyone :

give me the 20 year old who is guaranteed to have at least 20 wins a season :rockon:

whatever, enjoy your 20 win seasons kyrie.

westbrook on the cavs would equal more wins in a weak east, i dont care if he has dion waiters or gee. when westbrook played without durant (granted its not a big sample), he led them to 3-1 and this was before ibaka could hit a jumper. westbrook was let loose, had like a 40 pt, 15 reb, 9 assist game in a win. but thats ok, you have a 20 year old that can be clutch in the 20 wins he wins a year. oh yeah, and he likes taking games off with injury. what's not to like about that?????? :bowdown:

Please explain how Westbrook plays the the best scorer in the league, Kevin martin a knock down 20 pt scorer on his own team, top 10 pf and shoots 41% and then put him on the cavs with no real weapons what would he shoot with defenses double and tripling 34%? 35%?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Please explain how Westbrook plays the the best scorer in the league, Kevin martin a knock down 20 pt scorer on his own team, top 10 pf and shoots 41% and then put him on the cavs with no real weapons what would he shoot with defenses double and tripling 34%? 35%?

hey aren't you the poster that said Durant was the best player in the league?

:oldlol:

[brandonislegend]

hey aren't you the poster that said Durant was the best player in the league?

:oldlol:

He is at the moment he's averaging 38ppg on 56% shooting last 8 games and he's leading MVP race at the moment. :confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

He is at the moment he's averaging 38ppg on 56% shooting last 8 games and he's leading MVP race at the moment. :confusedshrug:


So what you are saying is that you have an agenda against Lebron, got it. Go troll somewhere else, Corky.

[Cali Syndicate]

Replace Durant and Westbrook w/ Lebron and Kyrie.

Is OKC a better team?

BTW I like Kyrie better as a PG. Not sure how well build around RW as an undersized SG will turn. A slightly better peak Monta Ellis, if even that?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Replace Durant and Westbrook w/ Lebron and Kyrie.

Is OKC a better team?


Easily. You get the best player in the NBA and the best shooting PG in the NBA not named Curry/Nash. Not to mention Kyrie is an absolute beast in the 4th quarter.

[Dictator]

Kyrie and it's not even close.

[shady6121]

He has also proven to be mentally r.etarded. :oldlol:

True, but I think as his career progresses he'll tone down on the sporadic bone-headed plays.

[brandonislegend]

So what you are saying is that you have an agenda against Lebron, got it. Go troll somewhere else, Corky.

What? Why are you being so butthurt? everything I said was a fact look at the stats and look at NBA.com MVP race. I am not a OKC fan or Heat fan I don't really care. You seem so butthurt :roll:

[jimmy77x]

What? Why are you being so butthurt? everything I said was a fact look at the stats and look at NBA.com MVP race. I am not a OKC fan or Heat fan I don't really care. You seem so butthurt :roll:

Didn't you know? You cant say anything wrong about his father lebron or he will have a fit. He will defend lebron to the death as if he actually knows him :lol

[imdaman99]

What? Why are you being so butthurt? everything I said was a fact look at the stats and look at NBA.com MVP race. I am not a OKC fan or Heat fan I don't really care. You seem so butthurt :roll:
But a known Westbrook hater. Your agenda is clear Mr clueless

[brandonislegend]

But a known Westbrook hater. Your agenda is clear Mr clueless

I played basketball at a D1 school, and I coached basketball last year, when I see a point guard make dumb decisions all game and take stupid shots, and on top of that take more shots than the best scorer in the league almost EVERY single game, I am sorry that's not the way a point guard is suppose to play. I don't know how much more logic you need.

[SilkkTheShocker]

What? Why are you being so butthurt? everything I said was a fact look at the stats and look at NBA.com MVP race. I am not a OKC fan or Heat fan I don't really care. You seem so butthurt :roll:


Anyone that believes Durant is the best player in the NBA is missing a chromosome. But than again, you are the same poster that said Irving is leaving after his rookie contract. So obviously you have no idea what the f.uck you're talking about

[brandonislegend]

Anyone that believes Durant is the best player in the NBA is missing a chromosome. But than again, you are the same poster that said Irving is leaving after his rookie contract. So obviously you have no idea what the f.uck you're talking about

He is leading the MVP race at the moment so I guess you know more than everyone, and I said if the Cavs don't make any big moves by the time his contract is over he will leave.

[fsvr54]

How is Kyrie a loser? He is one of the most clutch players in the league.

[brandonislegend]

How is Kyrie a loser? He is one of the most clutch players in the league.

http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1156648-nba-stat-central-10-most-productive-superstars-in-the-clutch/page/11

yup.

[imdaman99]

I played basketball at a D1 school, and I coached basketball last year, when I see a point guard make dumb decisions all game and take stupid shots, and on top of that take more shots than the best scorer in the league almost EVERY single game, I am sorry that's not the way a point guard is suppose to play. I don't know how much more logic you need.
This ain't the 80s coach Nick. There is no proof that pass first superstar point guards win championships. No magic Johnson around. You act like Durant isn't leading the league in scoring every year. Didn't know you and Joyner were the same person. Oh let me guess, you want Durant to average 40. Because he will still have the energy to close teams out down the stretch than. Keep up the Westbrook hate :applause:

[brandonislegend]

This ain't the 80s coach Nick. There is no proof that pass first superstar point guards win championships. No magic Johnson around. You act like Durant isn't leading the league in scoring every year. Didn't know you and Joyner were the same person. Oh let me guess, you want Durant to average 40. Because he will still have the energy to close teams out down the stretch than. Keep up the Westbrook hate.tTroll on :applause:

There is no reason why a point guard that shoots 41% from the field should shoot more shots than the best scorer in the NBA. I don't know how hard that is to get. I hate OKC though so I hope Westbrook continues to play this way :)

[imdaman99]

There is no reason why a point guard that shoots 41% from the field should shoot more shots than the best scorer in the NBA. I don't know how hard that is to get. I hate OKC though so I hope Westbrook continues to play this way :)
Yeah because OKC went to the finals despite what Westbrook did. Stay smart :roll:

Btw nice clutch stat line. Noticed who's #4? No you didn't. Once again, stay smart

[Legends66NBA7]

I thought it was a thread bump by Brandon because he made a similar thread, but the answer is still Westbrook for me.

[brandonislegend]

Yeah because OKC went to the finals despite what Westbrook did. Stay smart :roll:

Btw nice clutch stat line. Noticed who's #4? No you didn't. Once again, stay smart

Kyrie is averaging 16 more points per 48 and is shooting 54.4% compared to 49.3% and he has no Kevin Durant commanding attention from him :confusedshrug: teams usually deny Durant the ball cause they want Westbrook to shoot or make a decision. If you look he leads the whole list in turnovers as well.

[maybeshewill13]

Kyrie and i don't think twice about it.

Has that rare ability to be a go to scorer while also having control of the team/making smart plays

he's like a pass first shoot first point guard.

Kyrie has the potential to a 28 5 8 guy during his prime

You mean like what Westbrook is just about averaging now? Westbrook is averaging 24/5/8/2 ATM as a second option. I love Kyrie, but I think Westbrook has a better all-around game. Much better on the boards and a much better defender than Kyrie. Kyrie is more efficient though.

[Legends66NBA7]

So since there's a lot of people supporting Irivng in this thread, I ask this same question again in the other thread:

Build a franchise: Derrick Rose (pre-injury) or Kyrie Irving ?

[brandonislegend]

You mean like what Westbrook is just about averaging now? I love Kyrie, but I think Westbrook has a better all-around game. Much better on the boards and a much better defender than Kyrie. Kyrie is more efficient though.

That's fair, but you have to take in account he has Ibaka behind him and Perkins (even though he sucks) is still more intimidating than Thompson and Zeller :roll:

[brandonislegend]

So since there's a lot of people supporting Irivng in this thread, I ask this same question again in the other thread:

Build a franchise: Derrick Rose (pre-injury) or Kyrie Irving ?

What does this matter? Do you have a time machine?

[Just2McFly]

I thought it was a thread bump by Brandon because he made a similar thread, but the answer is still Westbrook for me.
I honestly don't see how you could choose other wise.

[Legends66NBA7]

What does this matter? Do you have a time machine?

Matters a lot.

Obviously I do, just don't want to use it.

[Legends66NBA7]

I honestly don't see how you could choose other wise.

Nah, didn't you read the thread ?

The answer is "Kyrie and it's not close". **** actually thinking for yourself and watching games, who needs that ?

[imdaman99]

Nah, didn't you read the thread ?

The answer is "Kyrie and it's not close". **** actually thinking for yourself and watching games, who needs that ?
LOL yeah, lets base all our answers on a statline that means more clutch. Apparently this is why everyone would rather have Robert Horry than Karl Malone... look at that clutch statline guys! And he never took away shots from his superstars!!!!!!! YEAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jyap9675]

Kyrie

[Legends66NBA7]

And I do like Irving a lot too. Clearly has Top 3 PG potential.

I just grow tired of reading the "it's not close" line, when it's obviously the opposite of that when it's being discussed.

[upside24]

I like Westbrook but Kyrie is just an amazing talent.

Like others have said his IQ, jumper and game management are far superior to Westbrook. Not to mention he has had numerous games where he has taken over the fourth quarter scoring and other teams couldn't stop him, despite the fact they knew he was looking for his shot.

Kryie has potential to be a top 5 player in the next couple years.

[2010splash]

Easily Irving. Only an idiot would rather have Westbrook. Irving is a highly efficient scoring machine and capable playmaker on a team full of scrubs. Westbrook is a shot-jacking and inefficient 40% shooter on a team with the best scorer in the league. Dude would shoot 35% on his own team.

[maybeshewill13]

That's fair, but you have to take in account he has Ibaka behind him and Perkins (even though he sucks) is still more intimidating than Thompson and Zeller :roll:

That's fair, though Perkins is a non-factor IMO. Dude is rubbish. Biggest piece of shit starter in the NBA.

I know Westbrook takes a lot of shitty shots.. it's what we have to live with because at the same time he is the one who wins us a lot of games. He's a OMG WTF AMAZING type player or a WTF ARE YOU ****ING DOING :facepalm type player night to night. Luckily he's amazing more than rubbish. I'm sure in the next couple of years he will continue developing and making better decisions.

[brandonislegend]

That's fair, though Perkins is a non-factor IMO. Dude is rubbish. Biggest piece of shit starter in the NBA.

I know Westbrook takes a lot of shitty shots.. it's what we have to live with because at the same time he is the one who wins us a lot of games. He's a OMG WTF AMAZING type player or a WTF ARE YOU ****ING DOING :facepalm type player night to night. Luckily he's amazing more than rubbish. I'm sure in the next couple of years he will continue developing and making better decisions.

Yeah he might be one of the worst starters in the league, I think he's still semi intimidating though

[maybeshewill13]

Yeah he might be one of the worst starters in the league, I think he's still semi intimidating though
He's a rough body down there, sets some decent screens.. that's about it. Intimidating to some I guess, but to real good and experienced players he's just a body in the way who's easy enough to get around, who will also turn over the ball to you a few times a game and miss some easy dunks while not really being a threat on the boards.

[brandonislegend]

He's a rough body down there, sets some decent screens.. that's about it. Intimidating to some I guess, but to real good and experienced players he's just a body in the way who's easy enough to get around, who will also turn over the ball to you a few times a game and miss some easy dunks while not really being a threat on the boards.

Yeah he sucks similar to Derek Fisher

[noob cake]

So since there's a lot of people supporting Irivng in this thread, I ask this same question again in the other thread:

Build a franchise: Derrick Rose (pre-injury) or Kyrie Irving ?

Irving easily. I will take Irving over anyone not named Durant or LeBron. Irving has already charted a journey of greatness that Derrick Rose will never touch.

1) His rookie season puts him statistically in the company of Guards like Chris Paul, Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson.

2) During his sophmore year, he made the all-star team before age 21. This puts him in an elite group of 6 current and future Hall of Famers. (Bryant, James, Johnson, Garnett, Isiah, Shaq).

3) Irving has perhaps demonstrated the greatest offensive repertoire for a 20 year old. Realistically, he is one of the most complete offensive player in the NBA today. He can shoot, slash, finish and pass.

4) Irving is a number 1 pick. Statistically, out of the greatest NBA players, there is better position to be drafted than being first.

5) Irving has the mental aptitude, physical ability and the work ethic to go down as one of the greatest players in NBA history.

As this point, I would trade the entire Rockets roster for him.

[Just2McFly]

Irving easily. I will take Irving over anyone not named Durant or LeBron. Irving has already charted a journey of greatness that Derrick Rose will never touch.

1) His rookie season puts him statistically in the company of Guards like Chris Paul, Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson.

2) During his sophmore year, he made the all-star team before age 21. This puts him in an elite group of 6 current and future Hall of Famers. (Bryant, James, Johnson, Garnett, Isiah, Shaq).

3) Irving has perhaps demonstrated the greatest offensive repertoire for a 20 year old. Realistically, he is one of the most complete offensive player in the NBA today. He can shoot, slash, finish and pass.

4) Irving is a number 1 pick. Statistically, out of the greatest NBA players, there is better position to be drafted than being first.

5) Irving has the mental aptitude, physical ability and the work ethic to go down as one of the greatest players in NBA history.

As this point, I would trade the entire Rockets roster for him.
:roll:

[noob cake]

:roll:

Before the draft
Haters called him a bust before the draft.

After the draft
Haters capped him as a 20/4/4 player who will struggle because of his "lack of athleticism"

After rookie year
Haters tried to convince us that the season wasn't impressive at all. There was even a thread where most people argue Tyreke > Irving.

In his Sophmore year after All-Star selection
Haters are still denying his greatness

[brandonislegend]

Cavs were down 12 points in the 3rd, Kyrie scores 16 points in a row to come back :bowdown:

[brandonislegend]

Mr. 4th quarter does it again :bowdown:

[ganja0710]

All he needs to do is work on his playmaking. He's been efficient as hell today too, and clutch as hell yet again, but there shouldn't be an excuse as to why he only had 2 assists. Walton had 7, Gee had 5, and Waiters had 4. That's my only knock on him.

[brandonislegend]

All he needs to do is work on his playmaking. He's been efficient as hell today too, and clutch as hell yet again, but there shouldn't be an excuse as to why he only had 2 assists. Walton had 7, Gee had 5, and Waiters had 4. That's my only knock on him.

Can't get assists when people don't make shots, the reason Walton had so many is cause Kyrie gave him like 4 or 5....

[noob cake]

Can't get assists when people don't make shots, the reason Walton had so many is cause Kyrie gave him like 4 or 5....

His teammates are pathetic. I watched the last quarter, I saw at least 5 complete bricks on Irving passes.

[brandonislegend]

His teammates are pathetic. I watched the last quarter, I saw at least 5 complete bricks on Irving passes.

Don't worry the 4th quarter is Kyrie's bitch :applause:

[noob cake]

Don't worry the 4th quarter is Kyrie's bitch :applause:

How does one become so clutch in the 4th quarter?

Irving just doesn't damn miss. Its literally stupid.

[brandonislegend]

How does one become so clutch in the 4th quarter?

Irving just doesn't damn miss. Its literally stupid.

I don't know but it is damn fun to watch.

[Budadiiii]

LOL.

ISH at it's finest.

Reminds me of that 'Harden vs Gordon' thread.

[RRR3]

Hilarious thread in retrospect

[KyrieTheFuture]

Yea at this point there is absolutely no contest

[Marchesk]

Yeah, what happened to all that Kyrie love? He was supposed to be the next upcoming superstar.

[Chuckbrook]

LOL.

ISH at it's finest.

Reminds me of that 'Harden vs Gordon' thread.
Why do you keep getting banned?

-Brook

[imdaman99]

Where is Brenda and foolcake? Mr I would trade the whole Rockets team for Kyrie?

Those guys haven't bumped this thread in so long, hope they are doing ok :roll:

[The JKidd Kid]

Can't get assists when people don't make shots, the reason Walton had so many is cause Kyrie gave him like 4 or 5....

DWill averaged 9 assists with Kris Humphries as his best team mate in 2011. CP3 averaged 10 with Tyson Chandler as his second best. Team mates aren't an excuse.

[comerb]

I wouldn't want to build one around either of them. But if I had to and I was trying to win as many games as possible... Westbrook.

[Budadiiii]

Why do you keep getting banned?

-Brook
Somehow, the rules aren't the same for everyone.

I call someone an idiot, I'm banned for a week.

Another guy calls someone a ****** ****** scumbag and a mistake/should've been aborted/kill yourself etc, and they get to live to see another day with no punishment. :rolleyes:

Did you watch Little Miss Sunshine? Iz the shit. :dancin

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

GOATbrook. My franchise player needs to be capable of playing defense.

[Chuckbrook]

Did you watch Little Miss Sunshine? Iz the shit. :dancin
Nah man.....and I still can't tell if you're serious or not.

-Brook

[RedBlackAttack]

Odd time to bump this thread considering Kyrie's incredibly high level of play lately. You're about a month late if the intention was to make Irving look bad.

[RedBlackAttack]

December averages:

Kyrie Irving
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
1.3 steals
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21

Russell Westbrook
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
1.6 steals
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25

:confusedshrug:

Yeah... that Irving guy stinks.

[Solefade]

WB's issues can be fixed through coaching. Can't really fix how Kyrie's injured all the time and he doesn't play defense. WB's one of the biggest competitors, can score as well as anyone, he's durable and he can play better defense. Kyrie's good but I'm gonna go with WB.

[K Xerxes]

I find it ironic how Westbrook's stock skyrocketed when he wasn't even playing. That injury did more for his rank than what he's actually done on the court. :lol:

I'd probably take Irving given that he's 4 years younger, although I definitely believe Westbrook is the better player. Didn't need the injury to tell me that, I've always considered him to be crucial to the Thunder's success.

[RedBlackAttack]

WB's issues can be fixed through coaching. Can't really fix how Kyrie's injured all the time and he doesn't play defense. WB's one of the biggest competitors, can score as well as anyone, he's durable and he can play better defense. Kyrie's good but I'm gonna go with WB.
Kyrie has played in every game so far this season.

I'd definitely say Westbrook is currently the better player, but you have to weigh that against Irving being FOUR years younger. That's pretty significant.

[Solefade]

Kyrie has played in every game so far this season.

I'd definitely say Westbrook is currently the better player, but you have to weigh that against Irving being FOUR years younger. That's pretty significant.

Right but has he played a full season ever? That includes his college career too....

Injury prone players tend to be injury prone for their entire careers.

[RedBlackAttack]

Right but has he played a full season ever? That includes his college career too....

Injury prone players tend to be injury prone for their entire careers.
He has not played a full season ever, but it is also important to point out that none of his injuries have been remotely serious or recurring. I'd say the most serious injury he has had in his NBA career was the shoulder last year which kept him out for a few weeks.

Other than that, you're talking about a concussion, a broken hand and other minor bumps and bruises. At Duke, it was a toe thing that has not recurred.

The Cavs were extra cautious with him because, in truth, they didn't care much about winning a ton of games in his first two years. I said coming into this season that this would be the real test to see if he was injury prone, because now the Cavs are actually trying to win.

He hasn't missed a game yet... knock on wood.

Meanwhile, the one real injury Westbrook has sustained is 100x more serious than anything that has happened to Kyrie... and it's something that could recur (though I hope it doesn't).

[Sakkreth]

I'd rather have someone with high iq as my leader than the one who is close to being retarded. Name me one player that led a team to a championshoip who had low bball iq.

[chips93]

WB's issues can be fixed through coaching. Can't really fix how Kyrie's injured all the time and he doesn't play defense. WB's one of the biggest competitors, can score as well as anyone, he's durable and he can play better defense. Kyrie's good but I'm gonna go with WB.

you cant coach players to be better defenders?

[Solefade]

you cant coach players to be better defenders?

You can but some players have a natural knack for it, it seems more natural with WB. And the major issue with Kyrie is that he's injured all the time even if they're not reoccurring injuries.

[veilside23]

I wouldnt even pick irving over lillard... i know westbrook has played longer but in that span dude has only had 1 major injury.... irving as good as he is .. he is not that good defensively.. sure he would get his numbers but if lets say he has another pointguard who can flat out score he wont be able to do something about it....

I dont want my star player to play on one side of the court only..

so if ever both will be a franchise player i will go to the guy who plays defense.. not to shabby on the offense ... scoring these days are kinda overrated.

[RedBlackAttack]

I wouldnt even pick irving over lillard... i know westbrook has played longer but in that span dude has only had 1 major injury.... irving as good as he is .. he is not that good defensively.. sure he would get his numbers but if lets say he has another pointguard who can flat out score he wont be able to do something about it....

I dont want my star player to play on one side of the court only..

so if ever both will be a franchise player i will go to the guy who plays defense.. not to shabby on the offense ... scoring these days are kinda overrated.
And Irving has had zero major injuries. :confusedshrug:

Kyrie is only 21 years old. You bring up Lillard... Kyrie is two years younger than him, even.

I think people sometimes forget that there have basically been no finished products at that age. LeBron James was a defensive liability in his first two years in the league.

I'm not saying Kyrie will ever have that kind of impact defensively, but all players have shortcomings at 21.

[LoneyROY7]

I'll take GOATbrook due to his sheer tenacity and unshakeable will to win.

[russwest0]

December averages:

Kyrie Irving
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
1.3 steals
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21

Russell Westbrook
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
1.6 steals
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25

:confusedshrug:

Yeah... that Irving guy stinks.

Post their rebounds

[veilside23]

And Irving has had zero major injuries. :confusedshrug:

Kyrie is only 21 years old. You bring up Lillard... Kyrie is two years younger than him, even.

I think people sometimes forget that there have basically been no finished products at that age. LeBron James was a defensive liability in his first two years in the league.

I'm not saying Kyrie will ever have that kind of impact defensively, but all players have shortcomings at 21.

Why is it wrong to bring up lillard? who is almost like kyrie irving but he gets more W than the other guy so whats not to bring up ? Defense is innate kind of thing ... sometimes its not just that .. its more than will... its the "knack" of having it . defense can be develop ? sure.. is it certain maybe ...

Irving may not have a major injury yet but the minor injuries doesnt worry you knowing it may happen every season?:rolleyes:

[RedBlackAttack]

Why is it wrong to bring up lillard? who is almost like kyrie irving but he gets more W than the other guy so whats not to bring up ? Defense is innate kind of thing ... sometimes its not just that .. its more than will... its the "knack" of having it . defense can be develop ? sure.. is it certain maybe ...

Irving may not have a major injury yet but the minor injuries doesnt worry you knowing it may happen every season?:rolleyes:
1. Never said there was anything wrong with bringing up Lillard. Just pointing out that, although Lillard came into the league after Irving, he's actually two years older. A lot of people may not realize it. As for the two players being the same except for Lillard "just getting more Ws," that's pretty dumb. Lillard is playing with arguably the best PF in the NBA who is in his absolute prime. The Cavs have the second youngest roster in the entire league, Kyrie is the best player on the team and they have improved quite a bit this season, contrary to popular opinion. Two completely different situations/players/roles. Dumb to even compare them, let alone say they're the same except one guy wins. :oldlol:

2. I can't tell you how ridiculous it is to insinuate that guys can't improve defensively. In fact, that is almost always the last thing that comes with young stars. Very few guys who step into the league as great scorers and playmakers are also great defenders. And, we have seen improvement in Irving defensively over the last two seasons. Those of us who actually watch the games, anyway.

3. He's only been in the league for two seasons. He has yet to miss a really big chunk of time. The question becomes, would you rather have a guy who may sit out every now and then with scrapes and bruises or have a guy who will play a long stretch uninjured, but then suffers a really serious injury? I'd choose the former, personally. Also, as I said, Cavs were really cautious with him in his first two years. This is the first season they're actually trying to do something and he hasn't missed a game. That may not be a coincidence.

[RedBlackAttack]

Post their rebounds
I just copy and pasted Kyrie's stats which I posted in another thread. I didn't include rebounds because his aren't very noteworthy, not because I'm trying to conceal something.

But, here are the complete stats:

Kyrie Irving
34.1 minutes
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
2.3 rebounds
1.3 steals
0.5 blocks
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21

Russell Westbrook
32.0 minutes
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
6.9 rebounds
1.6 steals
0.2 blocks
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25


Like I said, I wouldn't argue that Irving is a better player right now. I'm a fan of Westbrook's game. The four year difference in age is pretty important, though. Westbrook was just in his second year when he was 21. He's now in his 6th season. He really should be a far more complete player, which he is.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6KG3PSKi1Vk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Straight_Ballin]

:roll:


Delusion is such a sad trait to have.

Then please stop displaying it before you go full retard....

Kyrie is the clear cut answer.

[I.R.Beast]

Kyrie is more polished offensively with better handler etc. but Westbrook is a ruthless and tenacious player that gives his all every game on both ends of the floor...I gotta go with goatbrook..he's my favorite player. I just see westbrook as the type of guy with allen iverson type heart that would will teams with similar talent to more wins than kyrie would.

[LoneyROY7]

Then please stop displaying it before you go full retard....

Kyrie is the clear cut answer.

:facepalm

[VIntageNOvel]

I just copy and pasted Kyrie's stats which I posted in another thread. I didn't include rebounds because his aren't very noteworthy, not because I'm trying to conceal something.

But, here are the complete stats:

Kyrie Irving
34.1 minutes
27 points on 47+% FG, 38+% 3PT, 95% FT
7 assists
2.3 rebounds
1.3 steals
0.5 blocks
2.3 turnovers
Age: 21

Russell Westbrook
32.0 minutes
21.4 points on 45.4% FG, 31.3% 3PT, 88.4% FT
8 assists
6.9 rebounds
1.6 steals
0.2 blocks
4.1 turnovers
Age: 25


Like I said, I wouldn't argue that Irving is a better player right now. I'm a fan of Westbrook's game. The four year difference in age is pretty important, though. Westbrook was just in his second year when he was 21. He's now in his 6th season. He really should be a far more complete player, which he is.

something goes beyond boxscore and excel statsheet,
thats why westbrook is the most important thunder even though durant is the better player

but i would take curry

[NattyPButter]

Kyrie depends on the team to hard hedge a lot to some what hide his shit defense. Westbrook is a better defender and rebounder and If I had to pick between the two right now. I'd take Westbrook...I think he does a better job at making his team mates better also.

[LakersForlife]

i like kyrie but westbrook is the choice here

[RidonKs]

kyrie is going to mature into a smart player. you can already see it. russ will be russ for the rest of his career. most tenacious player in the league but he's just never going to be a heady point guard who makes the right decisions at the right time.

[The JKidd Kid]

kyrie is going to mature into a smart player. you can already see it. russ will be russ for the rest of his career. most tenacious player in the league but he's just never going to be a heady point guard who makes the right decisions at the right time.

It's like you've never seen Kyrie play. The kid has no understanding of how to run an offense whatsoever.

[RidonKs]

It's like you've never seen Kyrie play. The kid has no understanding of how to run an offense whatsoever.
he's a scorer first and foremost. i think it would be a mistake to turn him into a floor general. westbrook is better at organizing an offense and getting guys where they need to be but not at a level out of kyrie's reach. if you're going to build around a scoring point guard, you'll need a combo guard to take off the pressure. like a jarrett jack only worthy of starting minutes. otherwise you aren't taking advantage of your best player's best attributes.

when i say smart, i'm talking about making the right decisions. he's still extremely young but i think he's going to learn to balance out his instincts with his iq. certainly much more than westbrook ever will.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bump.

Remembered this thread and how absurd some of the earlier posts were.

Westbrook is now getting Top 5 claim at this point in time (I guess there's nothing THAT out of reach), but he was always better to begin with. PG position is loaded, so maybe 1 day Irving could reach that Top 3 PG potential I made ?

Also, interesting enough, Irving has been rumored to want out of Cleveland, but we'll see what happens.


Hilarious thread in retrospect

Indeed.

[noob cake]

Bump.

Remembered this thread and how absurd some of the earlier posts were.

Westbrook is now getting Top 5 claim at this point in time (I guess there's nothing THAT out of reach), but he was always better to begin with. PG position is loaded, so maybe 1 day Irving could reach that Top 3 PG potential I made ?

Also, interesting enough, Irving has been rumored to want out of Cleveland, but we'll see what happens.



Indeed.

Irving - 22
Westbrook - 25 (26 this year) with knee injury history

Easy choice Irving 10/10 days.

[rhowen4]

every year things could flip back and forth for these players

keep this thread in your thoughts and bump it again next year

[Legends66NBA7]

Irving - 22
Westbrook - 25 (26 this year) with knee injury history

Easy choice Irving 10/10 days.

And you would probably get to the lottery 10/10 days too.

At this point, Irving isn't even better than John Wall. Westbrook is Wall on steroids. I would have taken Stephen Curry over him last year and this year and he has a bunch of injuries too in the past. The injury thing doesn't even bother me that much. It's only been 1 season where it's been effecting Russ. It's not like this guy is Wade.

Even Lillard broke out on a team that wasn't even supposed to be in the playoffs in a deep conference.

[Legends66NBA7]

every year things could flip back and forth for these players

keep this thread in your thoughts and bump it again next year

Off course it does, but I just find it amusing people think this shit isn't close.

Like Irving (from 2013) is head and shoulders above these guys and would be a Top 3 player by now. Turned out there were quiet the number of PG's and players that were better than him this season, which include Russ despite injuries.

[East_Stone_Ya]

both are ballhogs, i would take Irving for his shooting

[TheMarkMadsen]

:roll: :roll:

Silk it's pretty clear who you think is better..

So anytime Silk tries to say KD is on the most stacked team in the league with the best point guard.. Just remind him of this. Literally everything you need to ether this clown for the upcoming season is here.

He even said a Lebron/Kyrie duo >> KD/WB

[TheMarkMadsen]

Easily. You get the best player in the NBA and the best shooting PG in the NBA not named Curry/Nash. Not to mention Kyrie is an absolute beast in the 4th quarter.


..

[TheMarkMadsen]

And when you see me saying Lebron has a better player beside him than Durant does & anybody tries to say "you're only saying that to discredit Lebron" just take a look at what I was saying in this thread..

[russwest0]

Westbrook is better than Kyrie but in the matchups between the two Kyrie has actually gotten the better of Westbrook from what I recall.

Kyrie especially has been an annoying little shit in close 4th quarter games with OKC. He's pretty clutch.

[RedBlackAttack]

Westbrook is better than Kyrie but in the matchups between the two Kyrie has actually gotten the better of Westbrook from what I recall.

Kyrie especially has been an annoying little shit in close 4th quarter games with OKC. He's pretty clutch.

Kyrie has lit up OKC in general when they've played. He's only gone against them four times in his career so far, but amazingly, the Cavs are 3-1 in those four games.


Here are their respective head-to-head numbers:

Kyrie Irving
23.8 points on 50.0% FG, 56.4% 3PT, 84.3% FT
7.3 assists
4.5 rebounds
2.3 steals
0.3 blocks
2.3 turnovers
Age: 22


Russell Westbrook
24.5 points on 52.8% FG, 50.0% 3PT, 87.5% FT
7.0 assists
3.3 rebounds
2.0 steals
0.0 blocks
3.8 turnovers
Age: 25


Both guys have balled pretty hard against one another, but the most surprising number is Irving's 3-1 record against OKC so far.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I will reserve judgement until the season starts, but probably Kyrie as he's simply a better decision maker (neither are great). I'll go with the chucker who's slightly better at it, is younger, and less injury prone

[navy]

Westbrook is better than Kyrie and it isnt close. Then again, Kyrie could make a jump. But as of right now? Westbrook is a top 5 player, top 10 at worst. Kyrie needs to hit the gym.

[Meticode]

Irving. Westbrook plays out of control way too many times. It's his greatest strength and weakness.

[RedBlackAttack]

Westbrook is better than Kyrie and it isnt close. Then again, Kyrie could make a jump. But as of right now? Westbrook is a top 5 player, top 10 at worst. Kyrie needs to hit the gym.
Kyrie is pretty f#cking good considering his age. :oldlol:

Pretty sure he has hit the gym... quite a bit.

[To4]

Goatbrook

[Meticode]

Kyrie is pretty f#cking good considering his age. :oldlol:

Pretty sure he has hit the gym... quite a bit.
I think he just meant Irving needs to get better.

[RedBlackAttack]

I think he just meant Irving needs to get better.
And I meant that he's already pretty f#cking good. It seems kind of obvious to point out that a guy should continue to strive to get better. When someone says "he should hit the gym," it generally means that a guy isn't working hard enough. :confusedshrug:

[navy]

I think he just meant Irving needs to get better.
This.

[Meticode]

And I meant that he's already pretty f#cking good. It seems kind of obvious to point out that a guy should continue to strive to get better. When someone says "he should hit the gym," it generally means that a guy isn't working hard enough. :confusedshrug:
I know, I know, but he hasn't shown any improvement or barely any since his rookie season.

[RedBlackAttack]

I know, I know, but he hasn't shown any improve or barely any since his rookie season.
That's bullsh!t.

[navy]

And I meant that he's already pretty f#cking good.
He was alright last year.

Was barely a top 10 point guard.

[russwest0]

I will reserve judgement until the season starts, but probably Kyrie as he's simply a better decision maker (neither are great). I'll go with the chucker who's slightly better at it, is younger, and less injury prone

This post fails on so many levels.

[RedBlackAttack]

He was alright last year.

Was barely a top 10 point guard.
Meh, I doubt there were many PGs in the NBA that received the kind of defensive attention as Kyrie did last year. And, that matters. When teams are gameplanning to stop you every night, it can wear you down over an 82-game season, especially as a 21-year-old who was playing over 70 games for the first time in his career.

Then, there's the fact that he was the youngest starting point guard in the entire NBA. No one is saying he is a finished product, but how many 21-year-olds are? Especially on a team that was in disarray for much of the year.

[navy]

Meh, I doubt there were many PGs in the NBA that received the kind of defensive attention as Kyrie did last year. And, that matters. When teams are gameplanning to stop you every night, it can wear you down over an 82-game season, especially as a 21-year-old who was playing over 70 games for the first time in his career.

Then, there's the fact that he was the youngest starting point guard in the entire NBA. No one is saying he is a finished product, but how many 21-year-olds are? Especially on a team that was in disarray for much of the year.
More defensive attention, but also more opportunities to put up stats. He played horrible defense and was by no means a leader on the court or in the lockerrom. But like I said, he's young. Maybe he makes a jump next year.

[RedBlackAttack]

More defensive attention, but also more opportunities to put up stats. He played horrible defense and was by no means a leader on the court or in the lockerrom. But like I said, he's young. Maybe he makes a jump next year.
His defense was actually better last year than his first two years. He still has a ways to go, but his effort improved. It even showed up marginally on his advanced defensive metrics.

Also, his assist-to-turnover ratio improved dramatically.

Last, one of the biggest criticisms in his first two years was that he couldn't stay healthy. Well, he played over 70 games last year, which was a nice sign in its own right.

He didn't have a "great" season, but it also wasn't exactly bad and he improved in most of the areas people complained about for his first two years (durability, playmaking, defense).

The biggest "disappointment" was his scoring efficiency, which was ironically one of his greatest strengths in his first two years. I think he'll be fine. Just growing pains for a young, talented player. It also won't hurt to have guys on the floor with him who actually command some defensive attention.

[Cocaine80s]

i remember how hard everyone was riding Kyrie until this past season.

Now everyone thinks hes overrated :oldlol:

Playing alongside Lebron will up every cavs player's game

[navy]

His defense was actually better last year than his first two years. He still has a ways to go, but his effort improved. It even showed up marginally on his advanced defensive metrics.

Also, his assist-to-turnover ratio improved dramatically.

Last, one of the biggest criticisms in his first two years was that he couldn't stay healthy. Well, he played over 70 games last year, which was a nice sign in its own right.

He didn't have a "great" season, but it also wasn't exactly bad and he improved in most of the areas people complained about for his first two years (durability, playmaking, defense).

The biggest "disappointment" was his scoring efficiency, which was ironically one of his greatest strengths in his first two years. I think he'll be fine. Just growing pains for a young, talented player. It also won't hurt to have guys on the floor with him who actually command some defensive attention.

I saw a matador out there. But not gonna pretend like I caught a lot of Cavs games. :oldlol:

Meh. He's an alright passer. We'll see what happens when he plays with elite shooters and finishers next year.

Im not worried much about the injuries. I remember a news story in 2013 where he pretty much stated he was faking and he Cavs were making him sit out. Or something like that.

He will be the third best scorer next year. He probably wont average 20.... he might flourish or he might pout and regress.

[Graviton]

Kyrie seems like a different version of Curry/Lilard. Westbrook is in a tier of his own with Paul, all these other PGs still got a lot to work on. All of them can score but it's about what else they offer when their shot isn't falling, that separates the elite from the rest.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I don't get this. To me I would take Westbrook quickly without a second thought. He's the superior player.

You'd have to build a better total system, but I'd be willing to go through some shit to have the better talent. I think the figuring out the role part would be worth it to have his talent.

[navy]

I don't get this.
The thread was made when it was still debatable.

[russwest0]

The thread was made when it was still debatable.

And that was when?

[navy]

And that was when?
Last season.

[Graviton]

And that was when?
Probably when Westbrook had his 3rd surgery and people thought he was gonna end up like Penny. :oldlol:

[russwest0]

Sorry but this ever being a debate is hilarious to me.

Westbrook is one of the GOAT rebounders for his position and one of the top defensive point guards in the league.

Add this in with his dynamite offense and leadership and it's not even remotely close.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Sorry but this ever being a debate is hilarious to me.

Westbrook is one of the GOAT rebounders for his position and one of the top defensive point guards in the league.

Add this in with his dynamite offense and leadership and it's not even remotely close.
not really...he's a very good rebounder for a PG but he's not special at it...he's on like Rondo level.

[Cocaine80s]

Sorry but this ever being a debate is hilarious to me.

Westbrook is one of the GOAT rebounders for his position and one of the top defensive point guards in the league.

Add this in with his dynamite offense and leadership and it's not even remotely close.
too bad kyrie owns him when they go head to head though

[Graviton]

not really...he's a very good rebounder for a PG but he's not special at it...he's on like Rondo level.
Have you not seen him soaring and challenging 7 footers for crucial rebounds? It's not even about pure numbers, just the way he fights for them without giving a **** what giant stands in his way. Especially on the offensive glass, I remember vs Clippers Deandre was about to get the ball then Westbrook jumped in and denied him. Russ is the most athletic PG of all time, rebounding is one of his strengths.

[Graviton]

too bad kyrie owns him when they go head to head though
Good thing Westbrook also owns him, both have great numbers against each other. Regular season game, obviously they value offense more than stopping each other. :confusedshrug:

[russwest0]

not really...he's a very good rebounder for a PG but he's not special at it...he's on like Rondo level.

His total rebound percentage was like in the top 10 last year, in a class of guys all 6'8 or greater...

Watch him in these past playoffs... I remember in the Clippers series him securing a few clutch rebounds over DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin...

He averaged 6 rebounds per game last year while playing just 30 minutes per game... He's absolutely one of the best rebounders ever for his position.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Have you not seen him soaring and challenging 7 footers for crucial rebounds? It's not even about pure numbers, just the way he fights for them without giving a **** what giant stands in his way. Especially on the offensive glass, I remember vs Clippers Deandre was about to get the ball then Westbrook jumped in and denied him. Russ is the most athletic PG of all time, rebounding is one of his strengths.

So you think he's a better rebounder than: Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd? He's very good...not GOAT

[Graviton]

So you think he's a better rebounder than: Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd? He's very good...not GOAT

The first 2 guys you mentioned are taller and bigger than him, one played in a completely different era with more possessions and rebounds to go around. While Magic is like freaking 6-9. Jason Kidd is probably GOAT. But for his size Westbrook is at least Top 3 all-time, definitely not THE greatest. Russwest is just over-exaggerating as usual. Westbrook IS special in that area though.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

The first 2 guys you mentioned are taller and bigger than him, one played in a completely different era with more possessions and rebounds to go around. While Magic is like freaking 6-9. Jason Kidd is probably GOAT. But for his size Westbrook is at least Top 3 all-time, definitely not THE greatest. Russwest is just over-exaggerating as usual. Westbrook IS special in that area though.
You don't get charity points for being short. either your good or your not. it's like saying "yeah but westbrook is more athletic than those 3 guys so he doesn't count"....and im pretty sure both oscar and magic would average higher rebounds than WB pace adjusted..

[russwest0]

You don't think Westbrook is one of the best rebounding point guards ever?

:biggums:

[wally_world]

Westbrook no question.

Talents are similar, but Russ is the better defender, plays with more heart, and is possibly the biggest competitor in the L. Cant go against that.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You don't think Westbrook is one of the best rebounding point guards ever?

:biggums:
He's not "One of the GOATs"...there have been PGs clearly better than him at rebounding...

[Graviton]

You don't get charity points for being short. either your good or your not. it's like saying "yeah but westbrook is more athletic than those 3 guys so he doesn't count"....and im pretty sure both oscar and magic would average higher rebounds than WB pace adjusted..

Those guys are the exception, not the norm. If Lebron played PG would you compare him to other 6 foot PGs and demand they get as many rebounds as him? Oscar, Magic, Lebron, these are point-forwards with clear advantages over shorter players. They are not your typical "point guards". Still I already said they are better than Westbrook at rebounding, but Westbrook is still ONE of the best.

I don't even know what your point is, is Westbrook the best rebounding PG of all time? Definitely not. Is he ONE of the best though? Most likely yes.

[russwest0]

He's not "One of the GOATs"...there have been PGs clearly better than him at rebounding...

Yes and there have been people better than Kobe at scoring but he's still one of the best scorers ever.

[Graviton]

He's not "One of the GOATs"...there have been PGs clearly better than him at rebounding...
I think you need to learn the difference between "one of" and "the". It's not limited to 2-3 people. Those lists usually have 5-10 players. Unless you also apply the same logic to every list and only have 3 basketball players in your greatest players of all time list.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Those guys are the exception, not the norm. If Lebron played PG would you compare him to other 6 foot PGs and demand they get as many rebounds as him? Oscar, Magic, Lebron, these are point-forwards with clear advantages over shorter players. They are not your typical "point guards". Still I already said they are better than Westbrook at rebounding, but Westbrook is still ONE of the best.

I don't even know what your point is, is Westbrook the best rebounding PG of all time? Definitely not. Is he ONE of the best though? Most likely yes.

Well if Lebron played PG and rebounded like he does now then yeah he'd be a better....just like if lebron played pg and averaged 5 tos i wouldn't give the "but he's big so it's harder to dribble" excuse...you are what you are...you don't get charity points for being smaller..

if we are going by that argument then you'd have to concede that guys shorter than WB like 6'1 rondo and bledsoe are better rebounders than him..

there are like 2 point guards in the league you could argue are better than him at rebounding...(MCW, Rondo)..i could probably come up with like 15-20 guards since 1990 that are debatable with him..you can't do the same with Kobe and scoring...

[Graviton]

Well if Lebron played PG and rebounded like he does now then yeah he'd be a better....just like if lebron played pg and averaged 5 tos i wouldn't give the "but he's big so it's harder to dribble" excuse...you are what you are...you don't get charity points for being smaller..

if we are going by that argument then you'd have to concede that guys shorter than WB like 6'1 rondo and bledsoe are better rebounders than him..
There is a reason why people use things like "pound for pound" to rank fighters. For basketball players height is the most important factor. If they don't get charity points for being smaller then why are there even positions and different rankings for those positions? You can't just deny the importance of it.

1-2 inches aren't the deciding factor, but when you are tyring to bring in a ****in 6'6 or 6'9 guy into debates about 6-6'2 point guards that's when you have to draw a line somewhere. These positions in NBA are mainly decided by height for a reason.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

There is a reason why people use things like "pound for pound" to rank fighters. For basketball players height is the most important factor. If they don't get charity points for being smaller then why are there even positions and different rankings for those positions? You can't just deny the importance of it.

1-2 inches aren't the deciding factor, but when you are tyring to bring in a ****in 6'6 or 6'9 guy into debates about 6-6'2 point guards that's when you have to draw a line somewhere. These positions in NBA are mainly decided by height for a reason.
:oldlol:

Fighters fight in different weight classes that's why there is a "pound 4 pound"...never will you here somebody use the weight argument to rank pound 4 pound within a weight class...There is no midget league for basketball they all play the same game

and Oscar is listed 6'5 - Westbrook 6'3 and Rondo and Bledsoe 6'1

[Graviton]

:oldlol:

Fighters fight in different weight classes that's why there is a "pound 4 pound"...never will you here somebody use the weight argument to rank pound 4 pound within a weight class...There is no midget league for basketball they all play the same game

and Oscar is listed 6'5 - Westbrook 6'3 and Rondo and Bledsoe 6'1

You don't see 7 footers playing PG or 6 footers playing center, they are separated by height, I wonder why. If Shaq played PG would you be debating his rebounding vs Magic's? Lebron can play PG easily, but when people try to compare him to past greats they do to other gifted 6'8+ players like Magic, Bird, Dominique, Pippen. You never hear people arguing Lebron vs Steve Nash.

Oscar is probably better, not sure about Rondo and Bledsoe. Westbrook is still one of the GOATs though.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You don't see 7 footers playing PG or 6 footers playing center, they are separated by height, I wonder why. If Shaq played PG would you be debating his rebounding vs Magic's? Lebron can play PG easily, but when people try to compare him to past greats they do to other gifted 6'8+ players like Magic, Bird, Dominique, Pippen. You never hear people arguing Lebron vs Steve Nash.


Ok let's say Shaq did play PG (would obvs be a disaster) BUT that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the goat rebounding PG...doesn't matter how tall/short you are..

Your argument is essentially this: If shaq were playing PG and was turning the ball over a lot and i said "shaq is one of the best ball handling PG's ever" and then you said "he isn't" and i responded with "but compared to other 7 foot PGs he's the GOAT"

Obviously an exaggeration but that in essence is what your saying...that we should grade players who play the same position on a different scale because of height...it's illogical

More examples:

It's the equivalent of saying "Westbrook isn't that good at rebounding because he's just really athletic" or "Jason Kidd is not good at rebounding because he just had great instincts"...it makes no sense...it doesn't matter what allows you to be a great rebounder whether it's height, weight, athleticism. box-out ability, instincts w.e....

it's like when people say Carmelo is the best scorer in the league because he's the most "skilled"

[Graviton]

Ok let's say Shaq did play PG (would obvs be a disaster) BUT that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be the goat rebounding PG...doesn't matter how tall/short you are..

Your argument is essentially this: If shaq were playing PG and was turning the ball over a lot and i said "shaq is one of the best ball handling PG's ever" and then you said "he isn't" and i responded with "but compared to other 7 foot PGs he's the GOAT"

Obviously an exaggeration but that in essence is what your saying...that we should grade players who play the same position on a different scale because of height...it's illogical

More examples:

It's the equivalent of saying "Westbrook isn't that good at rebounding because he's just really athletic" or "Jason Kidd is not good at rebounding because he just had great instincts"...it makes no sense...it doesn't matter what allows you to be a great rebounder whether it's height, weight, athleticism. box-out ability, instincts w.e....

it's like when people say Carmelo is the best scorer in the league because he's the most "skilled"



But there is a difference when you compare him to anomalies. Magic/Lebron have point guards skills in a forward's body. People use the term "point-forward" for them afterall. They are unique, not typical PGs.

You can compare Westbrook to any other PG, just not someone 6 inches taller. PGs for me are the shortest guys on the floor, the ones who have to fight the hardest in a game of giants. Magic was not of those guys, even if he played the position.

I think you see positions as just letters, while I see it as the player's "weight class", where they belong and what they are supposed to be. Same way certain posters say Duncan is a center and not a PF when people call him "the greatest PF of all time". I guess we can agree to disagree.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

But there is a difference when you compare him to anomalies. Magic/Lebron have point guards skills in a forward's body. People use the term "point-forward" for them afterall. They are unique, not typical PGs.
Magic is almost always called a "point guard" and i never brought up 'bron...you did


You can compare Westbrook to any other PG, just not someone 6 inches taller. PGs for me are the shortest guys on the floor, the ones who have to fight the hardest in a game of giants. Magic was not of those guys, even if he played the position.

Except Magic is a point guard...being the shortest on the court has nothing to do with being the point guard...even bball reference (which almost always lists players at their position by height) has magic as a PG...that's how clearly defined his role was


I think you see positions as just letters, while I see it as the player's "weight class", where they belong and what they are supposed to be. Same way certain posters say Duncan is a center and not a PF when people call him "the greatest PF of all time". I guess we can agree to disagree.

Okay if you want to go by the "weight class" argument (even though that's completely switching up the debate and what i took issue with) then we can name 10s and 10s of 2-guards in the 6-1 - 6-5 range who were better or at least close to as good rebounders than Westbrook..

[dunksby]

Now that LBJ is back in CLE I hope opinions have not changed about Kyrie's current and potential skills and talents. Let's review some of the responses:

He [Westbrook] has also proven to be mentally r.etarded. :oldlol:

Kyrie is undersized? He is like 6'3.

And I guarantee if he was playing with KD, he will be doing his best to get him the ball. Not trying to chuck jumpers depite being a vastly inferior scorer to KD

You can also count on Westbrick to do something incredibly stupid whenever he tries to takeover. Talented player, but his basketball IQ is extremely low. He honestly might be one of the dumbest players in the league.

You don't think OKC is a title contender with Kyrie and Durant? That team would be insanely hard to defend, especially in the clutch. Teams dare Westbrick to takeover. They actually hope for it.

Replace Irving with Westbrick and the Cavs still are terrible. They also would have almost no one to spread the floor with Westbrick.

Easily. You get the best player in the NBA and the best shooting PG in the NBA not named Curry/Nash. Not to mention Kyrie is an absolute beast in the 4th quarter.

[bizil]

Right now I would say Westbrook. I view both as score first PG's, but Westbrook's all around game is the deciding factor right now. The thing with Westbrook if he continues to improve his passing and floor generalship, he could be like a freak athletic version of Gary Payton. In the all around sense, it doesn't get better than GP! Russell has the ability to eclipse that IF he improves those PG facets! But Kyrie has a ton of upside and a better scoring skillset.