LeBron James right now is the best player of all time

[crisoner]

That's right I just said it.

LeBron generation kids rejoice.
There is no other player ever that has the same physical skill set this man posses. I also think he has grown up and mature in the last couple of years.

Now he probably will not have a better career then Mike or even Kobe...but LeBron James is just a better all around player then those two.
Only place where he may lack is in the post and lock down defense.
But his passing ability...brute force and speed is untouchable.

So I stand by this when I say right now...LeBron is the greatest player to ever play in the NBA.

I think when all is said and done he will have at least 6 MVP's and 3 to 4 titles.

[Connor B]

In my mind, Lebron would only need one more ring to be better all time than Kobe.

[crisoner]

In my mind, Lebron would only need one more ring to be better all time than Kobe.


No

career wise he would need at least 3.
He got Kobe on regular season MVP's but titles are what shape somebody's career at the end.

And Jordan going 6 for 6 is untouchable for LeBron.
Again Career wise.

[Budadiiii]

based on what? He's never had a season better than Jordan's best. (pick one from 89-93) and he will not be close in terms of achievements. Right now he is not playing at a higher level than Jordan did at his best. So please elaborate on your stupid ass opinion.

[air mamba]

yeah in your mind.

[Pushxx]

Nope.

[red1]

still needs to make me forget about the 2011 choke before I consider him

[ganja0710]

Oh my, this gon' be good...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're an idiot, no one cares.

[Mr. Jabbar]

some1 inform crisoner his acct has been hijacked please, nothing to see here folks, move along...

[Rysio]

no stat padding choking clown can be the goat. stop.

[28renyoy]

LOL @ this. If OKC won the title last year, he wouldn't Ben be considered the best player in the league, Durant would be.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

still needs to make me forget about the 2011 choke before I consider him
probably doesn't matter what some clown out in Toronto thinks.

[taucesays]

http://www.eriksoderstrom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/barbrady.jpeg

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

LOL @ this. If OKC won the title last year, he wouldn't Ben be considered the best player in the league, Durant would be.
and?

[SilkkTheShocker]

LOL @ this. If OKC won the title last year, he wouldn't Ben be considered the best player in the league, Durant would be.

You need to get over the fact that Durant aint winning s.hit unless LeBron dies

[CP3MVP]

Right now or all time?

[Budadiiii]

You need to get over the fact that Durant aint winning s.hit unless LeBron dies
Since when is LeBron some winner whos gonna steal all the ships from guys? :roll: :roll:


He FINALLY won a ring after consecutive years of utter failure? The only reason the guy cares about championships is because of the media and all the pressure put on him. He wants to "fit in" with guys like Kobe and MJ and be considered a "winner" Difference is... winning is in MJ and Kobe's blood... only reason LBJ gives a **** about winning now is because of the media/fan pressure. He wants to be liked and fit in. Dude aint a natural killer. He's just as manufactured as Justin Bieber. You really think LeBron has it in him to sustain that incredible drive he had? Its a once in a life time motivation, he will never reach that again. And to barely scrape by against the Pacers and Celtics and beat an inexperienced/over matched Thunder makes this dude the greatest thing since sliced bread? :biggums:

**** outta here.

[Nash]

MJ the best, Lebron or Magic most talanted and versatile ever. Bias or not, that's what experts(not haters and fanboys) say all the time.

[-p.tiddy-]

these are the type of threads that send posters to the OTC

[Nash]

Since when is LeBron some winner whos gonna steal all the ships from guys? :roll: :roll:


He FINALLY won a ring after consecutive years of utter failure? The only reason the guy cares about championships is because of the media and all the pressure put on him. He wants to "fit in" with guys like Kobe and MJ and be considered a "winner" Difference is... winning is in MJ and Kobe's blood... only reason LBJ gives a **** about winning now is because of the media/fan pressure. He wants to be liked and fit in. Dude aint a natural killer. He's just as manufactured as Justin Bieber. You really think LeBron has it in him to sustain that incredible drive he had? Its a once in a life time motivation, he will never reach that again. And to barely scrape by against the Pacers and Celtics and beat an inexperienced/over matched Thunder makes this dude the greatest thing since sliced bread? :biggums:

**** outta here.
Hmm, ok? Having a meltdown or what? Lebron has been to the finals 3 times and got 1 ring at 27. You can't seriously expect championships right and left from the Cavs days with that roster. He has had an amazing career so far, don't know what more you can expect.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Since when is LeBron some winner whos gonna steal all the ships from guys? :roll: :roll:


He FINALLY won a ring after consecutive years of utter failure? The only reason the guy cares about championships is because of the media and all the pressure put on him. He wants to "fit in" with guys like Kobe and MJ and be considered a "winner" Difference is... winning is in MJ and Kobe's blood... only reason LBJ gives a **** about winning now is because of the media/fan pressure. He wants to be liked and fit in. Dude aint a natural killer. He's just as manufactured as Justin Bieber. You really think LeBron has it in him to sustain that incredible drive he had? Its a once in a life time motivation, he will never reach that again. And to barely scrape by against the Pacers and Celtics and beat an inexperienced/over matched Thunder makes this dude the greatest thing since sliced bread? :biggums:

**** outta here.

Get the f.uck out of here with that excuse, f,aggot. OKC had HCA and were in the WCF the season before. They got their s.hit pushed in but a Heat team with 2/3 of its best players hurt. Hicktown aint winning a damn thing

[red1]

probably doesn't matter what some clown out in Toronto thinks.
your mother is a slut

[Budadiiii]

Get the f.uck out of here with that excuse, f,aggot. OKC had HCA and were in the WCF the season before. They got their s.hit pushed in but a Heat team with 2/3 of its best players hurt. Hicktown aint winning a damn thing
Just like the Heat had HCA when LeBron put on the biggest choking barrage in sports history.


Dude was biting his fingernails on the sideline and looked like he was terrified. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't go away. It never will. The championship took off the pressure only momentarily. He has to do it again. And then again. He just doesn't have that in him. He got incredibly motivated for one season and put his demons aside temporarily. It will all come back full force this year. Sorry but 1 isn't good enough, and the moment that hits him, is the moment he folds just like we all witnessed not too long ago. The guy is a born quitter.

[AussieG]

Depends if you judge players by stats or watching them and their presence on the court. Some people judge by stats, some by rings, or whatever else.

LeBron is up there.

But it's impossible to compare eras.

[midatlantic09]

The OP is pretty much correct. I realize one's PER isn't everything, but Lebrons has been close to or over 30 for the past 6 years or so. Other than MJ, no one has come close to that in recent memory on such a consistent basis.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Just like the Heat had HCA when LeBron put on the biggest choking barrage in sports history.


Dude was biting his fingernails on the sideline and looked like he was terrified. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't go away. It never will. The championship took off the pressure only momentarily. He has to do it again. And then again. He just doesn't have that in him. He got incredibly motivated for one season and put his demons aside temporarily. It will all come back full force this year. Sorry but 1 isn't good enough, and the moment that hits him, is the moment he folds just like we all witnessed not too long ago. The guy is a born quitter.

Well OKC sure as hell wasn't Dallas, because LeBron went in without lube. :oldlol: While your team's best player was crying on his mother's should like a little b.itch

[Kurosawa0]

He's certainly better than Kobe has ever been. Kobe ranks higher because of his career achievements, but in terms of level of play LeBron has it by a fairly decent margin.

I'd probably say LeBron hasn't quite reached the heights of the better MJ seasons. He's in the ballpark though.

[BuffaloBill]

Lol no

[Budadiiii]

Well OKC sure as hell wasn't Dallas, because LeBron went in without lube. :oldlol: While your team's best player was crying on his mother's should like a little b.itch
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg




:bowdown: KING James

[kNicKz]

His rank all time is rising, but he will never be considered better than Michael Jordan. He can overtake Kobe, but at this moment kobe is greater all time. He can't overtake Jordan for a number of reasons

[Myth]

If we are talking career, not even close yet.

If we are talking about peak, then there are still several. LeBron's peak right now though may be the best since Shaq's. There is more of a debate between peak LeBron and peak Kobe IMO, but Shaq's peak is clearly better than both of those to me.

[2LeTTeRS]

Just like the Heat had HCA when LeBron put on the biggest choking barrage in sports history.


Dude was biting his fingernails on the sideline and looked like he was terrified. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't go away. It never will. The championship took off the pressure only momentarily. He has to do it again. And then again. He just doesn't have that in him. He got incredibly motivated for one season and put his demons aside temporarily. It will all come back full force this year. Sorry but 1 isn't good enough, and the moment that hits him, is the moment he folds just like we all witnessed not too long ago. The guy is a born quitter.

Bron has been obsessively biting his nails since he got into the league. I made this thread back in 2008 >>>> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108516



Why has LeBron still not learned to stop biting his nails on he bench?

I swear every game the camera zooms to him sitting on the bench and you see him munching away on his nails. With how image conscious he supposedly is you would think somebody would tell him to cut that out. That really doesn't go along with the image they're trying to build of him.

[SpecialQue]

Yay?

[Budadiiii]

Bron has been obsessively biting his nails since he got into the league. I made this thread back in 2008 >>>> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108516
And...... your point? It obviously stems from being nervous, which is why he's a choker in the first place.

[FPJ]

Lebron with Jordan's mentality would have been up there for the debate.

What does "best player of all time" even mean? There were amazing players in the history of the league. Guess if i had to name one it would have to be Jordan cause he changed Basketball. He made it an awesome sport for people who wren't fans before.

I've never seen a more dominant player than prime Shaq. He was like a videogame character noone could defend. The NBA had to change rules because of him.

The players i respect the most are the overachievers. That's Kobe and Wade for me. I know their fanbases would never agree on anything but these 2 guys are amazing. They achieved all they have achieved because of their winning mentality and hard work and no matter what team you root for you have to appreciate what they've done in their career.

[SpecialQue]

Lebron is clearly better than God.

Whenever he dunks, a universe is created.

[Mrofir]

I basically feel he can't overtake MJ no matter what because he can never have that unblemished finals record. But if he surpasses or equals MJ in both MVPs (5) and rings (6), then it's a viable conversation. Call me if Lebron has 4 rings and we'll see what the chances are.

Edit - one other point. Think about the careers of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, just to name a few. I honestly think if Lebron played in MJs time he would have suffered the same fate, by virtue of mental toughness alone. I don't think Lebron is mentally soft (anymore), but MJ would have protracted Lebron's early struggles and used it to destroy him.

[-p.tiddy-]

I basically feel he can't overtake MJ no matter what because he can never have that unblemished finals record. But if he surpasses or equals MJ in both MVPs (5) and rings (6), then it's a viable conversation. Call me if Lebron has 4 rings and we'll see what the chances are.

Edit - one other point. Think about the careers of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, just to name a few. I honestly think if Lebron played in MJs time he would have suffered the same fate, by virtue of mental toughness alone. I don't think Lebron is mentally soft (anymore), but MJ would have protracted Lebron's early struggles and used it to destroy him.
pretty much this...yes

[HurricaneKid]

I basically feel he can't overtake MJ no matter what because he can never have that unblemished finals record. But if he surpasses or equals MJ in both MVPs (5) and rings (6), then it's a viable conversation. Call me if Lebron has 4 rings and we'll see what the chances are.

Edit - one other point. Think about the careers of Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, just to name a few. I honestly think if Lebron played in MJs time he would have suffered the same fate, by virtue of mental toughness alone. I don't think Lebron is mentally soft (anymore), but MJ would have protracted Lebron's early struggles and used it to destroy him.

There are 100 valid reasons why LeBron will never catch MJ. This is not one of them. It is better to have taken a team to the Finals than to have lost in the first round. Its a nonsensical argument. If a player can't even get his team into the playoffs its better than another player taking his team to the Finals and losing??

[-p.tiddy-]

There are 100 valid reasons why LeBron will never catch MJ. This is not one of them. It is better to have taken a team to the Finals than to have lost in the first round. Its a nonsensical argument. If a player can't even get his team into the playoffs its better than another player taking his team to the Finals and losing??
it isn't about his team losing, it is about the fact that he played awful

[shady6121]

Lebron will go down as one of the all-time greats, but as of right now, and most likely for a very long time, no one will be able to dethrone MJ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WR86xLSITc

[Mrofir]

There are 100 valid reasons why LeBron will never catch MJ. This is not one of them. It is better to have taken a team to the Finals than to have lost in the first round. Its a nonsensical argument. If a player can't even get his team into the playoffs its better than another player taking his team to the Finals and losing??


MJ lost in the first round to some legendary teams, and that was part of the making of his legacy. The "legacy", ie somewhat subjective part HAS to factor in to figuring out who the GOAT is. Otherwise we're just counting numbers from different eras.

The fact that once MJ got a taste of the finals, he kept coming back and winning, is a CRITICAL part of his legacy. If he had won his 6 rings in a 1010101 configuration instead of 3-peats, and had not shut out legends like Barkley and Malone, the debate around GOAT would be much more active. It's an argument based on perceptions, but the fact is if you watched basketball back in those days, MJ owned the league and had a mental edge on everyone that he rode to those 6 championships. Nobody has come close to doing that. LBJ doesn't just need 6 rings to compete with MJ, he needs some of them in succession. He needs to build that edge that nobody else has.

[HurricaneKid]

it isn't about his team losing, it is about the fact that he played awful

Which is one of the 100 other reasons. But to say Jordan was perfect in the Finals ignores the fact that he won 6 titles but lost in the playoffs 7 times.

Its also important to point out that at no point during MJs career was it legal to play zone defense. That is essentially entirely how LeBron has been defended, especially in the playoffs.

[TylerOO]

I absolutely agree. He may not have the career MJ had but he is definitely a better overall player.

[Mrofir]

Which is one of the 100 other reasons. But to say Jordan was perfect in the Finals ignores the fact that he won 6 titles but lost in the playoffs 7 times.

Its also important to point out that at no point during MJs career was it legal to play zone defense. That is essentially entirely how LeBron has been defended, especially in the playoffs.


You are showing your youth here. The defense played in the 90s was more intense than the defense played today, and some of that has to do with rule changes regarding perimeter contact. You just have an agenda.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Zone defense? Really people? :oldlol:

[-p.tiddy-]

I absolutely agree. He may not have the career MJ had but he is definitely a better overall player.
um...no

just no


it is really obvious who grew up watching MJ and who didn't in here

[Kingwillball]

Huge Lebron fan here however he has a lot more to prove to be in that conversation. Talent Wise and Physical Skills he is definately in the conversation already but Results are what matters in the long run.

[HurricaneKid]

MJ lost in the first round to some legendary teams, and that was part of the making of his legacy. The "legacy", ie somewhat subjective part HAS to factor in to figuring out who the GOAT is. Otherwise we're just counting numbers from different eras.

The fact that once MJ got a taste of the finals, he kept coming back and winning, is a CRITICAL part of his legacy. If he had won his 6 rings in a 1010101 configuration instead of 3-peats, and had not shut out legends like Barkley and Malone, the debate around GOAT would be much more active. It's an argument based on perceptions, but the fact is if you watched basketball back in those days, MJ owned the league and had a mental edge on everyone that he rode to those 6 championships. Nobody has come close to doing that. LBJ doesn't just need 6 rings to compete with MJ, he needs some of them in succession. He needs to build that edge that nobody else has.

I think you have me wrong. I am almost certainly more age appropriate to have enjoyed MJs career than almost anyone here. I don't think LeBron is CLOSE to MJ. He has to stay at this current level for several years before it can even be suggested. But for some reason we have to compare greats.

I think LeBron with his strength would have fared VERY well in MJs age. He also would have been far more of a scorer than he is today since he has been defended almost entirely by defenses that Jordan never faced (zone vs man).

[Mrofir]

Which is one of the 100 other reasons. But to say Jordan was perfect in the Finals ignores the fact that he won 6 titles but lost in the playoffs 7 times.

Its also important to point out that at no point during MJs career was it legal to play zone defense. That is essentially entirely how LeBron has been defended, especially in the playoffs.

and again -- anyone who watched basketball during the 90s knows MJs legacy would not be the same if it wasn't for the 3-peats and the fact that once he tasted finals success, he literally refused to allow a litany of other legendary players win a ring, until he retired. The ONLY reason Hakeem is so highly regarded is that MJ played baseball.

(don'tgetmewronghakeemisagreatplayerbutstillwithou tringsdifferentlegacythankstomjretirement)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You are showing your youth here. The defense played in the 90s was more intense than the defense played today, and some of that has to do with rule changes regarding perimeter contact. You just have an agenda.

It's actually common knowledge amongst any educated bball fan, as well as anyone who watched Jordan in his prime, that perimeter defense is not allowed to be as good today. Read up on "The Death of Defense" (http://bit.ly/JUqdKB)

[-p.tiddy-]

and again -- anyone who watched basketball during the 90s knows MJs legacy would not be the same if it wasn't for the 3-peats and the fact that once he tasted finals success, he literally refused to allow a litany of other legendary players win a ring, until he retired. The ONLY reason Hakeem is so highly regarded is that MJ played baseball.

(don'tgetmewronghakeemisagreatplayerbutstillwithou tringsdifferentlegacythankstomjretirement)
would have been a 7-peat had his father not died

and no one disputes that fact either

[Mrofir]

It's actually common knowledge amongst any educated bball fan, as well as anyone who watched Jordan in his prime, that perimeter defense is not allowed to be as good today. Read up on "The Death of Defense" (http://bit.ly/JUqdKB)


You are agreeing with me, just confirming. lol

[Mrofir]

I think you have me wrong. I am almost certainly more age appropriate to have enjoyed MJs career than almost anyone here. I don't think LeBron is CLOSE to MJ. He has to stay at this current level for several years before it can even be suggested. But for some reason we have to compare greats.

I think LeBron with his strength would have fared VERY well in MJs age. He also would have been far more of a scorer than he is today since he has been defended almost entirely by defenses that Jordan never faced (zone vs man).


Dennis Rodman probably would have guarded LBJ in the second three peat era. I would give anything to see that.

edit: Lebron facing those bulls teams would have seen a combo of pippen\jordan\rodman... just imagine those 3 vs lebron\wade on defense. The imaginary heat\bulls matchup is just so delicious to think about. Not saying anyone can shut LBJ down, but he would have had problems with Rodman especially. Bosh would have to score 30pts per game for the heat to compete. Or Chalmers would have to be KJ.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You are agreeing with me, just confirming. lol

Yep.

As for people that say MJ never faced doubles and triples or zones? That MJ was never doubled without the ball? This video debunks ALL those lies:
K Jordan VS Zone Isolation 1-1 Defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE)

Truth ALWAYS wins :)

[Psileas]

Just perfect, 4 pages gone by and only ONE mention of a single big man (prime Shaq)...:facepalm

[HurricaneKid]

You are showing your youth here. The defense played in the 90s was more intense than the defense played today, and some of that has to do with rule changes regarding perimeter contact. You just have an agenda.

10 bucks says I'm older.

The defense was more physical to be sure. You could "hand check" which was just allowing people to grab your hips to slow you. But the defenses couldn't play zone so you would famously have 3 guys standing at one side of the court and play 2 on 2 on the strong side. Now there are USUALLY 4 people on the strong side. If you look at how Boston defended LeBron in all those playoff wins (Thibs was the first one to really maximize use of the zone rules) there were always 3-4 defenders designed to stop him.

Its a completely different, and far more complex, obstacle. And the difference in scoring variance is enormous. In 88-89 there were only 25 teams. But there were 28 players who avg >20ppg. This year there are 30 teams and only 9 players >20ppg. Defenses are far more complex and they are designed to make the stars defer to lesser players.

[HurricaneKid]

You just have an agenda.

I am a GROWN MAN. My house is filled with original art and prints from the great museums of the world. With one exception: I have a framed picture of MJ.

If I had an agenda it is to glorify his existence and to celebrate the fact that I get to breathe the same air he does.

I will laugh at this accusation for the next 20 years.

[gengiskhan]

wow!!

LBJ is definitely a better than Copy Cryant no doubt all-time & on current peak prime years.

BUT

LBJ aint at MJ level till he gets to 32.5 / 8 / 8 @ 53%FG with 3 SPG.

right now, LBJ is pretty faar off from MJ or Bird or Big Os 30+PPG triple double season.

[jrong]

I honestly think if Lebron played in MJs time he would have suffered the same fate, by virtue of mental toughness alone. I don't think Lebron is mentally soft (anymore), but MJ would have protracted Lebron's early struggles and used it to destroy him.

And he nails it, folks. The true GOAT was a mental assassin. Current LeBron is still mentally hit-or-miss, while prior to last year, he was a mental midget. It wasn't just the Finals failure in 2011. There was a another Finals failure or at least drastic underperformance in 2007 (he was not expected to beat the Spurs, but he WAS expected to at least fight) and similar failures/ underperformances in the 2009 and 2010 ECSFs. That's FOUR big-stage playoff let-downs, not one.

MJ would have eaten LBJ's lunch. So-called "LeBron generation kids" need to wipe their snotty noses and go do their homework-- their history homework.

LeBron is already top 10 in my mind. But, I am uncertain of whether he will ever be top 5. The following are a list of players that I question whether he can ever surpass:

MJ
MJ (the two MJs are practically untouchable)
Wilt (even more statistically dominant than LBJ and, so far, more championships)
KAJ (Bron trails by six titles, many all-time records, and longevity of performance)
Shaq (more titles/ FMVPs; more dominant than Bron in his prime)
Bird (LeBron without the athleticism but with a dead-eye shot; more rings)

And who even knows how to evaluate Bill Russell? Anyway, LeBron is in the next group with TD, Kobe, etc.

And finally, it has to be said, Jordan never played with a Wade. Pippen never gave Mike anything approaching the support in a Finals or postseason that Wade provided James last year on one damn leg no less.

In fact, LBJ still isn't that much better than a maximized Wade (notice my choice of words-- I said "maximized", not "prime", as in Wade is nowhere close to being maximized currently; subtract LeBron from the team, and you'd see he is very much still in his prime). Don't believe me? Check how close their career per 36 stats are, even in spite of Wade's several injury-plagued years and him having spent quite a few years as a 1b, 2, or 3/4 option (rookie regular season).

Now, "LeBron generation kids", I want you to write the following 100 times:

I will stop overrating LeBron and insulting Michael Jeffrey Jordan, the greatest player that ever was.
I will stop overrating LeBron and....

[Young X]

Lebron arguably isn't even better than Prime Wade, how is this niqqa supposed to be better than Jordan?

[Legends66NBA7]

And finally, it has to be said, Jordan never played with a Wade. Pippen never gave Mike anything approaching the support in a Finals or postseason that Wade provided James last year on one damn leg no less.[/B]

This is not true.

Pippen's first 3 Finals were a solid for a second option. Pippen's 91-93 run postseason is very much comparable and was a better defender.

[La Frescobaldi]

All right now OP I will say this for ya:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cAUmFIIHiis/TFjN89jl92I/AAAAAAAADWo/myY5PoN6K0E/s1600/brass+balls.jpg

What you said, is said.

LeBron in his youth trashed out the League like very few have in history. People bash him for failing at the highest levels. But who else took Cleveland garbage to that mountain top? If it was too much for a boy to do, where is the shame in that? What he did at 23 was spectacular!!

Now, he's a man in the man's League and he has a team around him that competes at the highest level.

We'll just see.

[ThaRegul8r]

If you say so.

People whose minds are made up are impervious to anything that disagrees with them, so it's pointless to argue the point.

[jrong]

This is not true.

Pippen's first 3 Finals were a solid for a second option. Pippen's 91-93 run postseason is very much comparable and was a better defender.

Fair enough. A few less points, a few more rebounds and assists. Basketball Reference only has individual playoff game boxscores, not series averages, so I couldn't check Pip's Finals performances without doing a bunch of math that I'm not willing to do right now.

But, these series came earlier in Scottie's career than 2012 did in Wade's, and as I said, Scottie didn't have to go under the knife as soon as the parade was over. And there is no way Scottie could have ever taken the reins in a Finals with MJ standing there watching him, as Wade did in 2011. People forget that if Brian Cardinal hadn't injured Wade in Game 5, he still may have been able to carry LeBron's underachieving ass to that title.

So I stand by my statement: Jordan never played with a Wade.

[jongib369]

Entitled to your opinion but I personally wouldn't rank him over people like Chamberlain, Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Magic etc

[Legends66NBA7]

Fair enough. A few less points, a few more rebounds and assists. Basketball Reference only has individual playoff game boxscores, not series averages, so I couldn't check Pip's Finals performances without doing a bunch of math that I'm not willing to do right now.

But, these series came earlier in Scottie's career than 2012 did in Wade's, and as I said, Scottie didn't have to go under the knife as soon as the parade was over. And there is no way Scottie could have ever took the reins in a Finals with MJ watching him, as Wade did in 2011. People forget that if Brian Cardinal hadn't injured Wade in Game 5, he still may have been able to carry LeBron's underachieving ass to the title.

So I stand by my statement: Jordan never played with a Wade

Good points.

At their best and primes, I agree that Wade is better. Wade will probably end up higher than Pippen too on most consensus all-time list with more playoff success, if he isn't already.

[fpliii]

He's pretty damn good. How good? I don't know.

It'd be fun to revisit the top 10 all-time peaks project though (the voting fell apart due to stans going at it).

[Pacers4ever]

Good points.

At their best and primes, I agree that Wade is better. Wade will probably end up higher than Pippen too on most consensus all-time list with more playoff success, if he isn't already.
Scottie in the first 3 peat > last years and current wade

[raid09]

Lebron arguably isn't even better than Prime Wade, how is this niqqa supposed to be better than Jordan?

:roll: :roll:

[jrong]

All right now OP I will say this for ya:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cAUmFIIHiis/TFjN89jl92I/AAAAAAAADWo/myY5PoN6K0E/s1600/brass+balls.jpg

What you said, is said.

LeBron in his youth trashed out the League like very few have in history. People bash him for failing at the highest levels. But who else took Cleveland garbage to that mountain top? If it was too much for a boy to do, where is the shame in that? What he did at 23 was spectacular!!

Now, he's a man in the man's League and he has a team around him that competes at the highest level.

We'll just see.

These are the kind of threads that make people hate LeBron. Hell, I'm obligated to root for him (until he goes back to Cleveland in 2014), and you all are making me think that Kevin Durant/Chris Paul: 2013 MVP/FMVP has a nice ring to it.

[Segatti]

I don't know why people think he's far from Jordan or something. Jordan put 5 points more than Lebron in average, but Lebron is a better passer. Efficiency wise they are on the same level. All around skill are close too.

[La Frescobaldi]

These are the kind of threads that make people hate LeBron. Hell, I'm obligated to root for him (until he goes back to Cleveland in 2014), and you all are making me think that Kevin Durant/Chris Paul: 2013 MVP/FMVP has a nice ring to it.
Don't say "you all" when talkin to me because I'm not part of that gang!

Both those guys are terrific but to me james is looking at some more hardware at this point

[La Frescobaldi]

I don't know why people think he's far from Jordan or something. Jordan put 5 points more than Lebron in average, but Lebron is a better passer. Efficiency wise they are on the same level. All around skill are close too.
Big O has been watching from that same viewpoint as you - tell him hi when you see him

[jrong]

This is your brain.


I don't know why people think he's far from Jordan or something. Jordan put 5 points more than Lebron in average, but Lebron is a better passer. Efficiency wise they are on the same level. All around skill are close too.

This is your brain on basketball knowledge.

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: Push
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: LJ
Rebounding: LJ
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: LJ
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: LJ
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: LJ
Free-throws: MJ
Handles: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Better teammate: LJ
Leadership: MJ

Any questions?

[knicksman]

i dont know why people really overrate lebron.. he might have pretty stats but when it comes to offensive rating, even dirk is better than him. Now durant in his 6th year is already better than peak dirk. I actually think that dirk is better than lebron and couldve been ranked higher if he wasnt screwed by the refs in his first finals appearance. Dirks career really is almost the same as lebron and he was playing in the tight western conference.

I really view lebron as a low risk low reward type of player. If you want to win right away, you pick him but theres a higher chance too that you wont win a ring if you only surround him with lesser players whereas (durant,dirk) is the high risk high reward type of players where theres a greater risk that you would fail if you dont know how to build around them but you only need lesser players to win with them.

[red1]

i dont know why people really overrate lebron.. he might have pretty stats but when it comes to offensive rating, even dirk is better than him. Now durant in his 6th year is already better than peak dirk. I actually think that dirk is better than lebron and couldve been ranked higher if he wasnt screwed by the refs in his first finals appearance. Dirks career really is almost the same as lebron and he was playing in the tight western conference.

I really view lebron as a low risk low reward type of player. If you want to win right away, you pick him but theres a higher chance too that you wont win a ring if you only surround him with lesser players whereas (durant,dirk) is the high risk high reward type of players where theres a greater risk that you would fail if you dont know how to build around them but you only need lesser players to win with them.
Stfu knicksman, you are the dumbest poster on here. You still havent explained why you think drose is a cancer, why bronzy is a low impact star and why bosh is better than pippen.

[RRR3]

Stfu knicksman, you are the dumbest poster on here. You still havent explained why you think drose is a cancer, why bronzy is a low impact star and why bosh is better than pippen.
The obvious explanation is that he has the brainpower of a chipmunk.

[red1]

The obvious explanation is that he has the brainpower of a chipmunk.
The kid is so fcuking dumb my goodness

[knicksman]

Stfu knicksman, you are the dumbest poster on here. You still havent explained why you think drose is a cancer, why bronzy is a low impact star and why bosh is better than pippen.

bulls still got the best record without rose and bosh has proven to be a franchise player while pippen is not. Lebron might produce more wins on a bad team but not on a team with talent. I dont see lebron/westbrook producing as much as okc right now. In fact bosh and wade are both better than westbrook yet okc had more wins than heat 2 seasons in a row. And thats the reason why lebrons off rtg despite the stats is not as good as durant, dirk, magic, jordan, cp3 because he doesnt make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Yet people want to rank him above jordan coz he is averaging triple doubles. But how come it doesnt translate to better off rtg or wins or rings. If you want to rank him above jordan, beat his off rtg first. Right now durant is matching jordans career high.

[red1]

Is this dumbass actually trying to make an argument to prove that rose is a cancer, bosh is better than pippen, and bronzy is low impact? Do you even have eyes? Do you even have a brain? No one ranks bronzy over jordan that would be ALMOST as dumb as the shit that you say

[RRR3]

This guy is seriously basing how good a player is by Offensive Rating? :roll:
Okay, Knicksman, by your logic, Steve Kerr is the GOAT and Tyson Chandler is the best player in the NBA.
Care to address this?

[red1]

This guy is seriously basing how good a player is by Offensive Rating? :roll:
Okay, Knicksman, by your logic, Steve Kerr is the GOAT and Tyson Chandler is the best player in the NBA.
Care to address this?
He just gave me a new one "lebron is not as good as chris paul"

[knicksman]

Is this dumbass actually trying to make an argument to prove that rose is a cancer, bosh is better than pippen, and bronzy is low impact? Do you even have eyes? Do you even have a brain? No one ranks bronzy over jordan that would be ALMOST as dumb as the shit that you say

So what this thread all about?

[knicksman]

This guy is seriously basing how good a player is by Offensive Rating? :roll:
Okay, Knicksman, by your logic, Steve Kerr is the GOAT and Tyson Chandler is the best player in the NBA.
Care to address this?

yeah coz they have the same usage rate as the durants of the league.

[red1]

So what this thread all about?
if you could read you would realize that the OP went out of his way to state that he does not rank bronzy over jordan

[RRR3]

Red1, I guess this is what Knicksman's all-time list looks like:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html


Keep in mind Steve Kerr has the highest ORTG ever, for some reason they don't list him anymore they used to IIRC

[red1]

Red1, I guess this is what Knicksman's all-time list looks like:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html


Keep in mind Steve Kerr has the highest ORTG ever, for some reason they don't list him anymore they used to IIRC
jose calderon 11th greatest all-time! legend!

[360crazy]

Honestly Titles are a team accomplishment....Not an individual accomplishment....To ever bring titles into the argument when discussing individual accomplishments and skills is just plain wrong and dishonest. :confusedshrug:

[Linspired]

lol

[knicksman]

if you could read you would realize that the OP went out of his way to state that he does not rank bronzy over jordan

The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. Thats why I judged them based on off rtg coz what makes lebron overrated is his assists and points total compare to jordan/magic. But unless you think assists and points are part of defense, how come lebron doesnt produce the same off rtg as magic, jordan, durant.

[La Frescobaldi]

The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. Thats why I judged them based on off rtg coz what makes lebron overrated is his assists and points total compare to jordan/magic. But unless you think assists and points are part of defense, how come lebron doesnt produce the same off rtg as magic, jordan, durant.

This is a bag of wind.

[red1]

The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. Thats why I judged them based on off rtg coz what makes lebron overrated is his assists and points total compare to jordan/magic. But unless you think assists and points are part of defense, how come lebron doesnt produce the same off rtg as magic, jordan, durant.
What? The only part of your paragraph I understood was the part where you called yourself a f*gg*t.

[Simple Jack]

Jrong been hating on LeBron for couple years now. I'd bump all the sob story threads you made about how hard it is to be a heat fan and how doomed the team was with LeBron on it but I don't care enough to.

LeBron, at his peak, is certainly one of the best players this game has ever seen. Where he ranks exactly is hard to say, but there hasn't been such dominance on a nightly basis since Prime Shaq; in an era loaded with perimeter talent no less.

[Breezy]

To the Original poster:

You're not crazy, or an idiot, or any of a number of insults people here might throw at you. I can see how someone might arrive at this conclusion.

You are however wrong and here is why.

First what do you mean by "best" and how do you quantify it?

Just to take Jordan for example (though there are others imo who's 'bests' are better than lebrons best). Jordan Clearly had a superior offensive game. In pretty much every way you can be superior. Better Shooter, Better footwork, better slasher, better post up player, better at the free throw line. the only place I see lebron being as good or better than Jordan (offensively speaking) is finishing at the rim.

Here is a fun game Ill make a list of every attribute by which you can measure or rate a player and you give the category to MJ or LBJ.... If you think of a category that I missed let me know. Ill list everything I can thiink of. Not just cherry pick stats that favor one player or another

Offense:
Shooting-
Midrange-
Distance-
At the Rim-
Free throw-
Post moves-
Foot work-
Reading the defender-
Clutch Scoring-
Drawing fouls
Open Court play-
Ball handling -
Playing off the Ball-
------------------------------------------
Defense:
Man to Man-
Team player on Defense-
Cutting off Driving lanes-
Shot Blocking-
Getting Steals-
Forcing Turnovers-
Full court Defense-
--------------------------------------------
Passing:
Open court passes-
Finding open team mates-
Fancy deceptive passes-
Driving and Kicking-
facilitating Ball rotation-
Small window passing-
-----------------------------------------
Misc:
Durablility-
Rebounding-
Consistency-
Cluth play -
Making teammates better-
Knowing Time and score situation-
Taking care of the ball-
Adaptability-
Athleticism-


... If you can think of other measures of a player please add them.

[Money 23]

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: MJ (combo of power, finesse, and creativity)
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: Bron
Rebounding: Bron
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: Bron
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: Bron
Defensive versatility: Bron
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: Push (MJ's 3 ball is now CRIMINALLY underrated)
Free-throws: MJ
Facilitating Offense: Bron
Handles: Push
Dribble Moves: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Quicker Recognition: MJ
Better teammate: Bron
Leadership: MJ
Heart: MJ

MJ takes the vast majority of these categories, handily.

With that said, LeBron is easily the best player IMO since MJ retired (yes, better than Shaq) and will probably go down as the 2nd greatest perimeter talent of all-time, and a top five player depending on how man MVPs and Rings he racks up.

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.

[Big#50]

Jordan Stans are almost as bad as Kobe Stans. Jordan isn't the greatest ever. He is up there, but ****. For one, his defense is ****ing overrated.

[DirtySanchez]

I'm sorry people but at this moment I got LeBron.
Numbers stats etc are not everything.
And career wise LeBron is still far behind Jordan and Kobe for that matter.
But when it comes to physical skill, ability, style if play....it's LeBron IMO.
The man has Karl Malone's frame....Magic Johnson court vision and passing skills....hops like Dr J...and finishes hard at the rim like Wilkins.
Thing he can approve on is his footwork and post play...become more of a lock down defender...and his out side J. But those are intangibles he can work on and he is getting better.
Jordan was a scoring machine and a fierce competitor.....but physical skill and talent I would pick LeBron. It is a fair argent.

[BrickingStar]

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: MJ (combo of power, finesse, and creativity)
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: Bron
Rebounding: Bron
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: Bron
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: Bron
Defensive versatility: Bron
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: Push (MJ's 3 ball is now CRIMINALLY underrated)
Free-throws: MJ
Facilitating Offense: Bron
Handles: Push
Dribble Moves: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Quicker Recognition: MJ
Better teammate: Bron
Leadership: MJ
Heart: MJ

MJ takes the vast majority of these categories, handily.

With that said, LeBron is easily the best player IMO since MJ retired (yes, better than Shaq) and will probably go down as the 2nd greatest perimeter talent of all-time, and a top five player depending on how man MVPs and Rings he racks up.

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.
Heart isn't really a thing you can give MJ over lebron I would say equal. They both work heavily in the off season and play to their best nearly all the time if anything MJ slacked off more partying and shit lol. You can tell how much he ended up taking the 2011 finals result to heart. I mean when you say heart that's love for the game just because you're a better player doesn't mean you loved it more. Check that one as a push. Finishing is also a push creativity and finesse mean nothing in this that's just visually pleasing and lebron certainly brought more power to it. But for productivity in finishing which is all that matters, they are tied. I agree overall tho. LeBron although not near MJ career wise, he is one of the closest to him talent wise and has solidified to me to be a top 5 talent all time.

[Kovach]

Jordan Stans are almost as bad as Kobe Stans. Jordan isn't the greatest ever. He is up there, but ****. For one, his defense is ****ing overrated.
:roll:
In 1988 he led the league in steals and had more blocks than 16 starting centers in the league. Overrated indeed...

[Kovach]

Honestly Titles are a team accomplishment....Not an individual accomplishment....To ever bring titles into the argument when discussing individual accomplishments and skills is just plain wrong and dishonest. :confusedshrug:
Basketball is a team sport so what is exactly the point of even discussing and comparing individual player accomplishments or having all-time player lists in the first place?

[Big#50]

:roll:
In 1988 he led the league in steals and had more blocks than 16 starting centers in the league. Overrated indeed...
16 Centers sucked?

[BlueandGold]

Crisoner you been doing crack recently?

[Floppy]

:banghead:

Reading this forum is like watching some trashy reality show. You feel like a genius afterwards. A genius with a concussion but a genius nevertheless.

[Lebron23]

Not yet. But he's gonna be a top 7-10 players of all time if he wins another Finals MVP, and MVP.

[DMV2]

Honestly Titles are a team accomplishment....Not an individual accomplishment....To ever bring titles into the argument when discussing individual accomplishments and skills is just plain wrong and dishonest. :confusedshrug:
Because some players are better than their teammates, they contributed more to the "team success." They will get more credit as the team's best player and leader. They'll also get more blame for their team's failures.

If individual accomplishments are wrong and dishonest, then why even give out MVP awards, Finals MVP, DPOY, ROTY, and so forth.

Baseball, football, hockey all are team sports also, yet you hear the same argument about MVPs, all-time ranking. Maybe not as much as the NBA, but fans of those sports do debate about all-time list too.

[miles berg]

Better than Michael Jordan lol?

The guy isn't even close to Jordan, he lacks the mentality that the icons like Jordan & Bird had.

That is a huge difference between him and the top 7 or so players all time.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: MJ (combo of power, finesse, and creativity)
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: Bron
Rebounding: Bron
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: Bron
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: Bron
Defensive versatility: Bron
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: Push (MJ's 3 ball is now CRIMINALLY underrated)
Free-throws: MJ
Facilitating Offense: Bron
Handles: Push
Dribble Moves: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Quicker Recognition: MJ
Better teammate: Bron
Leadership: MJ
Heart: MJ

MJ takes the vast majority of these categories, handily.

With that said, LeBron is easily the best player IMO since MJ retired (yes, better than Shaq) and will probably go down as the 2nd greatest perimeter talent of all-time, and a top five player depending on how man MVPs and Rings he racks up.

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.

I wouldn't say that Bron is a better team defender than Jordan at all. Jordan is one of the best team defenders of all time (the only guys I've seen who are even in the same league are Pippen, Kidd, and Stockton).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Everyone talks about Bron and his "amazing passing"; Jordan's playmaking, when he REALLY wanted to get his guys involved, is so freaking underrated.

Guy is like a more skilled version of Lebron. Mike's arsenal was infinite - and when he picked apart a defense, he remained efficient in doing so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM

:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM#t=0m55s)
1:05 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM#t=1m05s) (innate court-vision)
11:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM#t=11m55s)

If Miami wins another title w/ Bron playing at a high level, I'd maybe entertain the idea. Then again, rings are a TEAM accomplishment so I don't know.

[Kovach]

16 Centers sucked?
Or your claim and reality have very little to do with each other?

[Magic 32]

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.

Yes, and choking 2 out of 3 finals mode.

[Lebron23]

Yes, and choking 2 out of 3 finals mode.


Hello Mr. Troll!!!

Kobe and LBJ Finals Stats

Kobe Bryant: 25.4 ppg 6rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 3.3TOV 41% 85%FT

Lebron James: 22.5 ppg 8rpg 7apg 1spg 0.4bpg 4.4TOV 44% 76%FT

[TMT]

:facepalm Threads like this are so far off. He's barely in the top 10 right now. He needs atleast 3 more rings to be in the same sentence as Duncan and Mamba.

[TMT]

Hello Mr. Troll!!!

Kobe and LBJ Finals Stats

Kobe Bryant: 25.4 ppg 6rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 3.3TOV 41% 85%FT

Lebron James: 22.5 ppg 8rpg 7apg 1spg 0.4bpg 4.4TOV 44% 76%FT

Stats don't counter whether a player choked or not. Even though the poster you were quoting was incorrect. He only has choked in 1 of 3 Finals. His first he was just straight up shut down by an elite defensive team, and he had no help. The second was definitely one of the worst chokes in the history of professional sports though.

[Sakkreth]

:facepalm Threads like this are so far off. He's barely in the top 10 right now. He needs atleast 3 more rings to be in the same sentence as Duncan and Mamba.

It's not like Timmy is in same question as Kobe, not sure if Kobe is top 10 and Duncan is easily and there is no question LeBron lands in top 10, question is where in top 10.

[Magic 32]

Hello Mr. Troll!!!

Kobe and LBJ Finals Stats

Kobe Bryant: 25.4 ppg 6rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 3.3TOV 41% 85%FT

Lebron James: 22.5 ppg 8rpg 7apg 1spg 0.4bpg 4.4TOV 44% 76%FT


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/292/357/5cd.png

[Ne 1]

:facepalm Threads like this are so far off. He's barely in the top 10 right now. He needs atleast 3 more rings to be in the same sentence as Duncan and Mamba.

Where do you currently have him ranked? Right now all-time I'd say he's in the same tier as Moses/West/Oscar/Dr. J/KG

[Roundball_Rock]

The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be.

:wtf:

Lebron came straight out of high school and elevated a 17 win team to 35 wins; Jordan came out of UNC and elevated a 27 win team to only 38 wins. The only losing season Lebron has ever had was his first year when he was fresh out of high school; Jordan recorded 5 losing seasons. Lebron reached the finals with scrubs in 2007 yet he had no impact? Cleveland has been a joke since Lebron left.

Jordan's impact on teammates? The year after he retired the first time most players who were on both the 1993 and 1994 teams saw their field goal percentages improve. :oldlol:

If Jordan is who you consider your GOAT, well, let's compare Lebron and Jordan through age 27 (it wouldn't be fair to include this season since we don't know if Lebron will win another ring or MVP yet).

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 3, Jordan 1
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first team: Lebron 7, Jordan 5
Losing records: Jordan 3, Lebron 1
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0

Lebron definitely is on pace to surpass MJ. Whether that is sustainable is a question only time can tell but the notion that comparing them is absurd is itself absurd since Lebron at this point is ahead of where Jordan was. Lebron could have 4 MVP's and 2 championships by the age of 28.

Keep in mind Jordan achieved no accolades when he was 30
and 31. Unless Lebron too decides to bail on his team a month before the regular season, Lebron will have two years of his prime to achieve important things that Jordan lacked the motivation to do. Lebron could have something like 4-5 MVP's and 2-3 rings by the time he is 31.

Some may point out Lebron entered the league at 19 while Jordan did so at 21 and therefore Lebron has an extra two years so comparing them at age 27 is unfair. I disagree. First, the extra two years only help Lebron in terms of career statistical totals. It doesn't help him in terms of accolades. All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Oh look, it's the Jordan hater Roundball Rock - say hi, everyone!

lol @ comparing them by age when Lebron has had 3 more seasons than MJ to accomplish what he did through the same age. 2 years plus the basically full season MJ missed in '86.


All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.

And, you know, get acclimated to playing at the NBA level. :rolleyes:

[Kovach]

Some may point out Lebron entered the league at 19 while Jordan did so at 21 and therefore Lebron has an extra two years so comparing them at age 27 is unfair. I disagree. First, the extra two years only help Lebron in terms of career statistical totals. It doesn't help him in terms of accolades. All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.
Of course you would disagree. If you compare the two after their 9 seasons in the pros Lebron doesn't really have a case. In the 10th season, one is trying to defend his first ring while the other was already retired as the best player of all time with nothing to challenge himself with.

[Just2McFly]

This is your brain.



This is your brain on basketball knowledge.

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: Push
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: LJ
Rebounding: LJ
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: LJ
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: LJ
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: LJ
Free-throws: MJ
Handles: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Better teammate: LJ
Leadership: MJ

Any questions?

Too bad that's not how we judge players and Lebron is better in the open court.

[plowking]

Oh look, it's the Jordan hater Roundball Rock - say hi, everyone!

lol @ comparing them by age when Lebron has had 3 more seasons than MJ to accomplish what he did through the same age. 2 years plus the basically full season MJ missed in '86.



And, you know, get acclimated to playing at the NBA level. :rolleyes:

So you're blaming Lebron for longevity and the fact he was good enough to play in the NBA at a younger age? If anything its a positive. Bron is more accomplished at a younger age.

[OldSchoolBBall]

So you're blaming Lebron for longevity and the fact he was good enough to play in the NBA at a younger age? If anything its a positive. Bron is more accomplished at a younger age.

He also has way more failures and instances of poor/sub-par play than Jordan had, especially in the playoffs.

I'm not blaming him for anything, only noting that comparing players by age when one had 2-3 more years to amass accomplishments is disingenuous.

[La Frescobaldi]

He also has way more failures and instances of poor/sub-par play than Jordan had, especially in the playoffs.

I'm not blaming him for anything, only noting that comparing players by age when one had 2-3 more years to amass accomplishments is disingenuous.
that word is too big for ish

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Too bad that's not how we judge players and Lebron is better in the open court.

Maybe its just me ...

But, when it comes to these players - guys who provide similar and/or equal impact to their teams' success, breaking down their skill-set is an acceptable way to rank (and "judge") them.

[Just2McFly]

Maybe its just me ...

But, when it comes to these players - guys who provide similar and/or equal impact to their teams' success, breaking down their skill-set is an acceptable way to rank (and "judge") them.
To me it seems stupid. The difference between them in so many of these categories are hair thin. Lebron has been playing amazing defense the past 5 years or so and the past so just saying " Defense: MJ" doesn't mean jack shit.

It doesn't show the whole picutre, plus it goes too far into irrelevant categories. Free throw shooting? Seriously.

Like would a Lebron fan, not troll but fan, use ft shooting as evidence to why Lebron's career is on the same level or greater than Shaq's?

No.

We all know Jordan's career is better at the moment. As players, they are completely different but can you say that Jordan impacts the game on a different level than Lebron?

That's the question here.

[Scholar]

LOL @ this. If OKC won the title last year, he wouldn't Ben be considered the best player in the league, Durant would be.

If the Jazz beat the Bulls in '98, Michael wouldn't have been as great as we all know he is.

If LAL beat the Celtics in '08, the Lakers would have 17 banners and Celts would have 16; plus, the Big 3 would've been a failed project.

If David Robinson didn't score 70+ pts against the Clippers, Shaq would have won that scoring title.

If ... Blah, blah. I can't believe anyone would argue a point by using a "if this happened, that wouldn't have happened" statement. So retarded.



And for the record, I'm not defending the OP. I think LBJ is the best currently, but all-time? Not even close.

[plowking]

He also has way more failures and instances of poor/sub-par play than Jordan had, especially in the playoffs.

I'm not blaming him for anything, only noting that comparing players by age when one had 2-3 more years to amass accomplishments is disingenuous.

Once again you're counting his finals appearance with San Antonio as a negative when the fact is, his team was no where near good enough and shouldn't have been there in the first place.
You don't make the finals due to poor play, and Lebron has already been in 3 of them. That is a positive, and always will be one. If Lebron goes on to win the same amount of championships as MJ, how in the world can we consider MJ the more successful one when he hasn't reached the finals as many times, and instead failed earlier?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Once again you're counting his finals appearance with San Antonio as a negative when the fact is, his team was no where near good enough and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Yes, I do count instances of poor play as...instances of poor play. It's calling a spade a spade. It was great that he reached the Finals, but to lay an egg the way he did in that and other series is something you never saw from Jordan pre-retirement. period.

[eliteballer]

Come on...LeBron's had to beat like 2 legit teams in to get to those 3 Finals from the Leastern Conference...and 2 of those runs came with a "super team"

[plowking]

Yes, I do count instances of poor play as...instances of poor play. It's calling a spade a spade. It was great that he reached the Finals, but to lay an egg the way he did in that and other series is something you never saw from Jordan pre-retirement. period.

LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

To me it seems stupid. The difference between them in so many of these categories are hair thin. Lebron has been playing amazing defense the past 5 years or so and the past so just saying " Defense: MJ" doesn't mean jack shit.

It doesn't show the whole picutre, plus it goes too far into irrelevant categories. Free throw shooting? Seriously.

Like would a Lebron fan, not troll but fan, use ft shooting as evidence to why Lebron's career is on the same level or greater than Shaq's?

No.

We all know Jordan's career is better at the moment. As players, they are completely different but can you say that Jordan impacts the game on a different level than Lebron?

That's the question here.

To each his own I guess.

I know if I had to choose between a set of players (Lebron/Shaq/MJ for instance), guys who I'd want to start a team with, Shaq's FT shooting WOULD be a knock on him; something I WOULD need to evaluate when starting said franchise.

No one sane would debate their careers, as players, in their primes, Lebron's impact is definitely up there w/ Jordan's. Definitely in the same tier.

[La Frescobaldi]

LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.

jordan choked for years. it wasn't just his teams.

[DCL]

whenever you compare any player to MJ, you can only do it by comparing results.

6 rings, two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles, DPOY.

is lebron (or anyone) even close to this resume??

[Segatti]

whenever you compare any player to MJ, you can only do it by comparing results.

6 rings, two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles, DPOY.

is lebron (or anyone) even close to this resume??

6 rings: team accomplishment
Two 3-peats: team accomplishment
10 scoring titles: Jordan is a better scorer, everybody knows that, but only this doesn't make him the best player.
DPOY: Nobody in his right mind would use this award for measure defensive skills.

[jrong]

LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.

Don't try to argue Jordan history with people who know it inside and out and are presumably older than yourself like Oldschool and myself. MJ had exactly one playoff series that could be considered an individual failure, and it was in the first round, as opposed to LeBron's four, two of which were in the Finals and two of which were against the big-3 era Celtics.

Just because LeBron is on the team now you don't have to lose all sense of rational perspective about him. He'll probably be gone after next year anyway.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LOL at Jordan not having poor series'.

Much of what are considered poor series for Lebron, due to how certain things played out, happened the same for Jordan. I know for a fact earlier in Jordan's career he had multiple close out games where he played terribly, much like what Lebron is criticized for.

Show me the poor series Jordan had prior to retirement in '93 and then I'll show you Lebron's. In addition, Jordan has never, EVER played as poorly and passively as Lebron did in the '11 Finals - that was an embarrassment. It almost singlehandedly precludes him from ever being considered the GOAT - that's how bad it was.

[TMT]

Where do you currently have him ranked? Right now all-time I'd say he's in the same tier as Moses/West/Oscar/Dr. J/KG

I agree with the set of players you have him listed with right there, as of right now.

Obviously in no particular order it's Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe in the top 9. Then comes the second tier of players like you listed, and Lebron is in that group. Right at this moment he's in the teens somewhere in my opinion, but that top 10 isn't something you can crack by just putting up more stats.

Honestly for Lebron to rise heavily, I think he needs to win some championships with a squad that isn't so stacked at some point while he's still in his prime. Not sure if that means Dwyane Wade leaving Miami or Lebron going back to Cleveland to lead a young team but I think at some point a serious change is going to be made and Lebron is going to have to prove he can win despite that, with less talent around him IMO.

[Magic 32]

I'm sure this is the kind of hysteria + amnesia that Lebron was hoping for in 2010.

Let Reggie remind you all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JskyovzAyiA&t=2m37s

[coin24]

Show me the poor series Jordan had prior to retirement in '93 and then I'll show you Lebron's. In addition, Jordan has never, EVER played as poorly and passively as Lebron did in the '11 Finals - that was an embarrassment. It almost singlehandedly precludes him from ever being considered the GOAT - that's how bad it was.

This, funny how soon people forget Lebrons epic choke jobs just because he won last year:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

lol @ comparing them by age when Lebron has had 3 more seasons than MJ to accomplish what he did through the same age. 2 years plus the basically full season MJ missed in '86.

Irrelevant. Lebron has a small advantage in this regard because he entered the league earlier--although it does hurt his career averages. At the end of the day players will be compared on their accomplishments and thus far Lebron has achieved more than Jordan and he has a significant advantage going forward in that Lebron won't lose his motivation to play basketball for 2 years of his prime like Jordan did.

:oldlol: at how only in MJ's case versus Lebron is seasons played invoked. This is never done when MJ is compared with Magic, who had his career cut short by disease fresh off being MVP runner-up, or Bird who had his prime cut short by injury.


If you compare the two after their 9 seasons in the pros Lebron doesn't really have a case.

:oldlol: at invoking 19 and 20 year old Lebron and placing his 9 seasons in comparison with Jordan's at face value. What was Jordan doing at 19 and 20? Jordan at 21 did not impact his team as much as Lebron at 19.

What did Jordan achieve at ages 30 and 31? Nothing. He played a grand total of 17 regular season games and got bounced in the second round in one of those seasons. Lebron will be adding to his legacy during those years. If Lebron and Jordan are close through age 27 that implies Lebron has an excellent chance to finish well ahead of him in accolades. Jordan simply didn't have the motivation to play at an elite level year after year like a Kareem did. If Lebron continues at his present level and plays as long as he can he could have a sizable advantage over Jordan in individual achievements. The big question is how many rings will Lebron end up with? He already has 3 MVP's so it is easy to see him matching or exceeding Jordan's 5 (which isn't the record--6 by Kareem is--but people tend to use Jordan's 5 as the benchmark nonetheless).


Yes, I do count instances of poor play as...instances of poor play. It's calling a spade a spade.

You can't have it both ways on age. If you are going to discredit some of Lebron's achievements due to his early entry into the league you have to devalue some of his shortcomings that are linked to age. Lebron was 22 and he overachieved to carry scrubs to the finals in the first place. Jordan, meanwhile, did not even win a playoff series until he was 24 (1-9 in playoffs in his first three seasons) and even that year he promptly was dismissed 4-1 in the second round.


6 rings, two 3-peats, 10 scoring titles, DPOY.

is lebron (or anyone) even close to this resume??

Yes, Lebron for one is on pace to finish with a better resume than Jordan. Can he keep it up? Time will tell but Lebron at 27 clearly has achieved more than Jordan at 27, and as noted previously, Jordan achieved absolutely nothing in two of his prime years because he lost his motivation to play, let alone play at an elite level.

Jordan has 10 scoring titles because he led the league in FGA perennially. Even at age 38 MJ was 2nd in the league in FGA per game. Lebron not being a ball hog is one reason he elevates his teammates in a way Jordan does not.

yeah, Jordan never had a bad game or series. :roll: Remember this 14 pager? http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136345

[knicksman]

It's not like Timmy is in same question as Kobe, not sure if Kobe is top 10 and Duncan is easily and there is no question LeBron lands in top 10, question is where in top 10.

I rather rank a 2nd option top 10 than a cheater. Lebron needs at least 8 rings to be compared to jordan. His rings value are just 0.5 because he cheated but 8 rings is enough.

[Hank]

I rather rank a 2nd option top 10 than a cheater. Lebron needs at least 8 rings to be compared to jordan. His rings value are just 0.5 because he cheated but 8 rings is enough.

Poor knicksfan still butthurt he chose Miami over New York as a free agent


http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s647/MiamiDpctures/Wadeyoumad_zpsdbd27f22.gif

[coin24]

Poor knicksfan still butthurt he chose Miami over New York as a free agent


http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s647/MiamiDpctures/Wadeyoumad_zpsdbd27f22.gif

Aren't you like 40 years old? Posting u mad pics? Fkn sad...
Why don't u post that pic of your fat bandwagon family again:lol

[knicksman]

:wtf:

Lebron came straight out of high school and elevated a 17 win team to 35 wins; Jordan came out of UNC and elevated a 27 win team to only 38 wins. The only losing season Lebron has ever had was his first year when he was fresh out of high school; Jordan recorded 5 losing seasons. Lebron reached the finals with scrubs in 2007 yet he had no impact? Cleveland has been a joke since Lebron left.

As I said, lebron impacts more on a bad team but jordan, magic impacts more on teams with talent. Jordan was a statpadder early in his career too thats why hes losing.


Jordan's impact on teammates? The year after he retired the first time most players who were on both the 1993 and 1994 teams saw their field goal percentages improve. :oldlol:

What im saying is the assists. Pippens numbers dropped which means that his playmaking really is maximized with jordan whereas wades impact is diminished. Thats what differs magic/jordan who are considered GOATS coz they dont statpad. They concentrate on their roles rather than be all around. Jordan too averaged triple doubles but he realized its not a winning formula. So to say, that lebron is better because he averaged triple doubles is false. Jordan cared more about winning than stats and so they shouldnt be penalized for sacrificing stats.

I guess lebron/oscar is better than russell/magic/duncan/shaq coz they too cared about winning than stats. Once lebron sacrifice his stats, thats when he get exposed. He becomes a scorer And thats when you realize hes not as elite of a scorer as Jordan, Durant. And if he chose to be a playmaker, hes not as good as magic/cp3. And those guys are more impactful than lebron. It may not show on stats but thats because they cared more about winning. And so it only shows on the win totals. Cp3 already made his team contender in his 3rd year while lebron hasnt. The same with durant while lebron only lucky to be in the east thats why hes in the finals. But I dont consider that team to be contenders. Its a first round exit or would not even make it to the playoffs if its in the west.


If Jordan is who you consider your GOAT, well, let's compare Lebron and Jordan through age 27 (it wouldn't be fair to include this season since we don't know if Lebron will win another ring or MVP yet).

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 3, Jordan 1
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first team: Lebron 7, Jordan 5
Losing records: Jordan 3, Lebron 1
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0

Lebron definitely is on pace to surpass MJ. Whether that is sustainable is a question only time can tell but the notion that comparing them is absurd is itself absurd since Lebron at this point is ahead of where Jordan was. Lebron could have 4 MVP's and 2 championships by the age of 28.

Keep in mind Jordan achieved no accolades when he was 30
and 31. Unless Lebron too decides to bail on his team a month before the regular season, Lebron will have two years of his prime to achieve important things that Jordan lacked the motivation to do. Lebron could have something like 4-5 MVP's and 2-3 rings by the time he is 31.

Some may point out Lebron entered the league at 19 while Jordan did so at 21 and therefore Lebron has an extra two years so comparing them at age 27 is unfair. I disagree. First, the extra two years only help Lebron in terms of career statistical totals. It doesn't help him in terms of accolades. All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.

Lebron is only on pace of beating jordan because he cheated. Had he not cheated, he would still be ringless while collecting 4-5 mvps. He needs to have at least 8 rings to beat jordan. Jordan only needed a pippen whos not even better than bosh. Thats how great jordan is, while lebron choked in his 2nd finals appearance.

[madmax]

LMAO at this mad Knickerbockers fan:roll: Resorting to childish "cheating" argument when logic fails him oh so hard? Dayum, that's so salty and bitter:lol

[mark]

No

career wise he would need at least 3.
He got Kobe on regular season MVP's but titles are what shape somebody's career at the end.

And Jordan going 6 for 6 is untouchable for LeBron.
Again Career wise.


No player is better now ever than LeBron, and in the future for generations it's not about the rings.

[plowking]

Don't try to argue Jordan history with people who know it inside and out and are presumably older than yourself like Oldschool and myself. MJ had exactly one playoff series that could be considered an individual failure, and it was in the first round, as opposed to LeBron's four, two of which were in the Finals and two of which were against the big-3 era Celtics.

Just because LeBron is on the team now you don't have to lose all sense of rational perspective about him. He'll probably be gone after next year anyway.

You might be older, and if you are, it surprises me at how shitty your memory is, or better yet, how much bias you hold. You're just as bad as pauk, except you hold on to the hope Wade will somehow start outshining Lebron on the team, even if it means the Heat losing. Basically, you're an idiot, and it became apparent once Lebron joined the Heat.



Show me the poor series Jordan had prior to retirement in '93 and then I'll show you Lebron's. In addition, Jordan has never, EVER played as poorly and passively as Lebron did in the '11 Finals - that was an embarrassment. It almost singlehandedly precludes him from ever being considered the GOAT - that's how bad it was.

See you put up ultimatums immediately to prevent him of having any chance of being the GOAT. What if he wins the next 5 championships? A single event doesn't prevent anything.

Lets take a look at Lebron's bad series shall we. The one against San Antonio in 06-07 season... Hes 22. Jordan hadn't won a single playoff game at this point in his career, Lebron has made it to the finals. If you're going to take away the fact that Lebron has had more time to achieve certain things due to age, take away his failures too. Can't have it both ways. If anything, this is a positive. Reaching the finals with the team he had? Amazing.

Boston in 07-08. Even through his terrible play (if 27, 6 and 8 is terrible, although on 36% shooting) they took the championship favorites to seven games... Lebron did everything in his power to win as well in an amazing close out game with 45-5-6. Yes he played poorly, but at least he showed up in the close out game. A bad series none the less.

09-10 against the Celtics again. Statistically this series is fine, but apparently he quit on his team... There is no proof of that, so you can't really justify calling 27-9-7 on 45% shooting a bad series. For the sake of this argument, we will, as it is considered so.

Then you have the 11' finals... No explanation needed, he played poorly.

Are we going to count the 87 playoffs as poor for Jordan? Shot 30% in the elimination game and 41.6% for the series. Might as well since Lebron shooting 45% is considered a poor series by fans today for Lebron.

Are we going to count the 89 playoffs for Jordan as a bad series against the Pistons? Where he shot 46% and had 30ppg, but you have to remember, he only took 8 shots on his team, and there was media scrutiny at the time, not as big as Lebron got now, due to the media era we live in, but you have to count that as quitting on your team, don't you?

In his first 3 years in the 3 elimination games where Jordan got kicked out of the playoffs, he shot 36%. In his first 4 years, he shot 38% in those 4 games. 5 years, its 41%. Pretty average for someone considered a clutch god, and who always stepped up. In fact, way below average.
Lebron at least has a history of stepping it up in the last game. Got a triple double in the series against Boston in 09-10. A 27/19/10 triple double. 45/6/5 in the poor series against Boston in 07-08.

[Legends66NBA7]

As players, they are completely different but can you say that Jordan impacts the game on a different level than Lebron?

That's the question here.

The answer to the question is a yes from me.

[talkingconch]

lebron will never be goat so you can end all the useless arguing right now. has to win at least 5

[FultzNationRISE]

We did it boys

[Spurs m8]

Can someone ban this loser?

[ZionDunks]

LeFraud makes this board and the sport garbage

[Lebron23]

LeFraud makes this board and the sport garbage

You are a garbage poster who never touch a basketball in his entire life. Just go away and stop posting in this forum.