Scottie Pippen: Underrated/Overrated?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Or do you feel he is rated where he should be? I have seen a lot of posters say he doesn't get his due for the Bulls' success. Even one (retard) going as far as saying he was better than Magic/Bird. And some hardcore Jordan worshipers say that Jordan made him the player he was. Which side you you lean on?

[longhornfan1234]

Underrated. Top 25 player of all-time. People say Wade is better than Scottie. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Xiao Yao You]

Highly overrated

[Dragonyeuw]

He's either overrated or underrated depending on who's making the argument. Kobe stans will overrate him like he's a top 10 GOAT player in order to diminish Jordan. Jordan stans will underrate him to make it seem like Jordan won 6 titles by himself.

Realistically, he's a top 30 player, top 10 GOAT SF, top 10 90's player and an extremely important piece of the Bulls dynasty.

[Shepseskaf]

Or do you feel he is rated where he should be?
That depends on exactly where that is. Definitely top 50 all-time, imo, and in the conversation as the best perimeter defender ever.

High bb IQ, great intangibles, willing to do the dirty work, didn't need the ball to be effective...

His two downfall areas were his deficiencies on offense, and that he's a beta, rather than an alpha.

[97 bulls]

Or do you feel he is rated where he should be? I have seen a lot of posters say he doesn't get his due for the Bulls' success. Even one (retard) going as far as saying he was better than Magic/Bird. And some hardcore Jordan worshipers say that Jordan made him the player he was. Which side you you lean on?
Is that exactly what I said? Or are you lying? It seems as if some of you morons get a rise out of exaggerating the truth. Then when confronted, run like a little scared bitch.

[97 bulls]

That depends on exactly where that is. Definitely top 50 all-time, imo, and in the conversation as the best perimeter defender ever.

High bb IQ, great intangibles, willing to do the dirty work, didn't need the ball to be effective...

His two downfall areas were his deficiencies on offense, and that he's a beta, rather than an alpha.
He was a franchise player that never got the chance to see how far he could go leading a talented team. Some people will try to say he failed as a leader cuz he didnt win in 00. But he was 34/35 years old.

The fact is he gets held to a standard a lot of players dont have to meet.

[miles berg]

Rated correctly, top 50 player all time, top 5 SF.

Great player.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Underrated. Top 25 player of all-time. People say Wade is better than Scottie. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
I dont see anything funny about that. Wade is clearly better player than Scottie.

[Glide2keva]

Underrated by casual fans, overrated by Jordan bashers and rated correctly by NBA experts and Bulls fans.

[97 bulls]

I dont see anything funny about that. Wade is clearly better player than Scottie.
Wades clearly a better scorer than Pippen. Thats as far as it goes. Defense, rebounding, teamwork, running an offense, passing, basically every other facet of basketball Pippen is better.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Wades clearly a better scorer than Pippen. Thats as far as it goes. Defense, rebounding, teamwork, running an offense, passing, basically every other facet of basketball Pippen is better.
pippen or lebron?

[TheMarkMadsen]

top 10 player of the 90's

top 25 player all time

best small forward of his generation

[plowking]

Underrated by casual fans, overrated by Jordan bashers and rated correctly by NBA experts and Bulls fans.

I've heard "NBA experts" saying "some people don't remember, but Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for a few years when they were playing together". They referring to Jordan. Which is false.

Hes overrated. Particularly by NBA experts. Some of them talk as if he was a better player than Ewing, Clyde, Isiah, Barkley, etc.
Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but people remember him as far better than what he actually was due to his achievements in a team. Certain posters act as if he'd be a guaranteed lock for top 5 player in the league right now for most of his career, when in reality he'd be a fringe top 10-15 guy, like he was back in his day.

[plowking]

Wades clearly a better scorer than Pippen. Thats as far as it goes. Defense, rebounding, teamwork, running an offense, passing, basically every other facet of basketball Pippen is better.

Wades a better shooter, free throw shooter, passer, blocker, post player, playmaker, slasher, more clutch, consistent and more efficient.

Its not particularly close. Wades better. Melo is better. Durant is better.

[97 bulls]

Wades a better shooter, free throw shooter, passer, blocker, post player, playmaker, slasher, more clutch, consistent and more efficient.

Its not particularly close. Wades better. Melo is better. Durant is better.
You obviously dont watch basketball.

[LEFT4DEAD]

You obviously dont watch basketball.
Plowking has said what I wanted. I guess you can say that Pippen is better than Kobe too. Kobe has only scoring over him. Dumb logic you have there.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I've heard "NBA experts" saying "some people don't remember, but Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for a few years when they were playing together". They referring to Jordan. Which is false.

Hes overrated. Particularly by NBA experts. Some of them talk as if he was a better player than Ewing, Clyde, Isiah, Barkley, etc.
Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but people remember him as far better than what he actually was due to his achievements in a team. Certain posters act as if he'd be a guaranteed lock for top 5 player in the league right now for most of his career, when in reality he'd be a fringe top 10-15 guy, like he was back in his day.


post like this make me think he's underrated.

He was the most well rounded player in the L at the time and was vital to the Bulls 3 peating twice.

how many other people have put up number like this IN THE FINALS while only getting 16-17 shots per game.

91 finals: 21 9 7 2.5 on 45%

92 finals: 21 8 8 1.5 1 on 48%

93 finals: 21 9 8 2 1 on 45%

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wades a better shooter, free throw shooter, passer, blocker, post player, playmaker, slasher, more clutch, consistent and more efficient.

Its not particularly close. Wades better. Melo is better. Durant is better.

Agreed, save perhaps for Melo. The other two are clearly in a different league than Pippen. He has become extremely overrated by a small yet vocal contingent on this and other boards.

[plowking]

post like this make me think he's underrated.

He was the most well rounded player in the L at the time and was vital to the Bulls 3 peating twice.

how many other people have put up number like this IN THE FINALS while only getting 16-17 shots per game.

91 finals: 21 9 7 2.5 on 45%

92 finals: 21 8 8 1.5 1 on 48%

93 finals: 21 9 8 2 1 on 45%

As a comparison, Wade averaging 1 shot more, averaged 27/7/5 against the Mavericks shooting 55%. Along with 2 steals and 2 blocks a game.

You know Clyde averaged 26/8/6 in his first finals against Detroit right? On incredible 55% shooting. Clyde was a better player than Pippen. It was evident if you watched both at their peak. Go back and watch games from both.

[Jolokia]

You obviously dont watch basketball.
Scottie Pippen became my favorite player during his Portland years so I've collected hundreds of his Chicago games on DVD and computer downloads.

Wade is the better mid range shooter, free throw shooter, blocker, play maker, slasher, and clutch player like plowking states.

Pippen is the better passer, man defender, ball thief, 3-point shooter (he shoots more), and rebounder though. And he stays on the court more for what it's worth.

And no Melo is not better than Pippen...at least he's not shown it yet. Durant is someone I'll have over him though.

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen became my favorite player during his Portland years so I've collected hundreds of his Chicago games on DVD and computer downloads.

Wade is the better mid range shooter, free throw shooter, blocker, play maker, slasher, and clutch player like plowking states.

Pippen is the better passer, man defender, ball thief, 3-point shooter (he shoots more), and rebounder though. And he stays on the court more for what it's worth.

And no Melo is not better than Pippen...at least he's not shown it yet. Durant is someone I'll have over him though.
I disagree with Wade being a better playmaker, midrange, and clutch player. Wade has failed far more than he succeeded. And in situations where his teams shoukdve won. And you can exclude 06. I feel he was aided drastically by the Refs. So in your opinion, hiw is Wade more clutch?

[97 bulls]

As a comparison, Wade averaging 1 shot more, averaged 27/7/5 against the Mavericks shooting 55%. Along with 2 steals and 2 blocks a game.

You know Clyde averaged 26/8/6 in his first finals against Detroit right? On incredible 55% shooting. Clyde was a better player than Pippen. It was evident if you watched both at their peak. Go back and watch games from both.
Again, you dont know basketball. Are you taking into account what their role.was.ont the team? Or just looking at stats

[SilkkTheShocker]

Is that exactly what I said? Or are you lying? It seems as if some of you morons get a rise out of exaggerating the truth. Then when confronted, run like a little scared bitch.


No one is running away from some f.aggot that posts on an internet forum :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[jbryan1984]

I think a little bit of both. The dude gets overlooked because he played with Jordan but at the same time, he was such a great player. Now, do I think he is good enough to STILL, today, be one of the top 50 players of all time? No. He is not a guy like Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, etc who could lead a team to the finals without another star. But he does get overlooked a lot and I feel his defense gets overlooked as well.

[97 bulls]

No one is running away from some f.aggot that posts on an internet forum :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Great. Then please acknowledge what I said exactly.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wades a better shooter, free throw shooter, passer, blocker, post player, playmaker, slasher, more clutch, consistent and more efficient.

Its not particularly close. Wades better. Melo is better. Durant is better.


I would take Pippen over Melo.

[AlphaWolf24]

I've heard "NBA experts" saying "some people don't remember, but Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for a few years when they were playing together". They referring to Jordan. Which is false.

Hes overrated. Particularly by NBA experts. Some of them talk as if he was a better player than Ewing, Clyde, Isiah, Barkley, etc.
Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but people remember him as far better than what he actually was due to his achievements in a team. Certain posters act as if he'd be a guaranteed lock for top 5 player in the league right now for most of his career, when in reality he'd be a fringe top 10-15 guy, like he was back in his day.


Da Fuq?...





- and it's 100% true....Pippen had a 5 year stretch of top 2 - 3 player in the NBA...

from 92' - 96' he was always referred as 2nd best allaround player in the League....


- his 92' and 93' seasons were some of the best basketball ever by anyone....his perimeter defense alone was unlike anything I ever seen.

- I would say he is vastly Overrated .....since MJ is so popular, many overlook Pippen....True Fans of basketball that watched him play....understand how valuable he was.

Jordan = .417 winning % without Pippen. ( 5 sub .500 seasons) 1/3rd of his career.....that alone says it all. ( not saying MJ wasn't a great player...but Pippen provided all the help he needed to make the Bull's a championship team)

[97 bulls]

I think a little bit of both. The dude gets overlooked because he played with Jordan but at the same time, he was such a great player. Now, do I think he is good enough to STILL, today, be one of the top 50 players of all time? No. He is not a guy like Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, etc who could lead a team to the finals without another star. But he does get overlooked a lot and I feel his defense gets overlooked as well.
Lol come on. Neither Jordan or Shaq were able to get to the Finals without another star. And when James went in 07, the East sucked. This is exactly my point. Why hold certain players to a standard others dont have to meet?

[AlphaWolf24]

I think a little bit of both. The dude gets overlooked because he played with Jordan but at the same time, he was such a great player. Now, do I think he is good enough to STILL, today, be one of the top 50 players of all time? No. He is not a guy like Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, etc who could lead a team to the finals without another star. But he does get overlooked a lot and I feel his defense gets overlooked as well.


- Lebron is the only one on that list that went to the Finals without another "star"....

- Pippen nearly went to the Finals with BJ Armstrong as a 2nd option.( no slight to BJ...he was an allstar ....but MJ and Shaq had great teammates who were HOF'ers

[SilkkTheShocker]

Great. Then please acknowledge what I said exactly.


You said Pippen >>>Magic and Bird

:coleman:

[Ne 1]

I would take Pippen over Melo.

Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defender, was an MVP caliber player, and at least a top 5 player (and the best all-around player) and the best SF in his prime. 6 rings, 9 conference finals, and 16 consecutive years in the playoffs.

Melo got knocked out the first round 5 straight years before Chauncey came to Denver and ran the Nuggets offense.

Scottie could realistically put up 22-23 points a game...or 9 rebounds...or 8 assists and get DPOY talk. And play the point. And defend virtually anyone over 6' and quite a few guys in the 7 foot range.

Melo is clearly a better scorer..but its not like we have a history of him winning anything to suggest they would use it to a teams benefit more than a team could use Pippens more well rounded game. Melo can have his extra points, I'll take Scottie's playmaking and ability to run the offense as a 6'8" small forward as well as Scottie's superior IQ, superior rebounding and elite defense whether it be 1 on 1 defense vs several different positions or his excellent help defense.

[iamgine]

Was Pippen considered better than Clyde Drexler during those days?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I would take Pippen over melo easy.

[Sarcastic]

Pippen is a 16 point per game scorer for his career. He is overrated.

[AlphaWolf24]

Was Pippen considered better than Clyde Drexler during those days?


After 92'........Clyde was considered a top 5 player as thee late 80's ushered into the 90's...

but a 92' onward Pippen was just proving to be a dominate 2 way player...and Clyde wasn't the same after MJ merked him.

[Dragonyeuw]

Was Pippen considered better than Clyde Drexler during those days?

Pippen and Clyde's primes didn't occur at the same time. Clyde in the early 90's was definitely viewed as better( remember he was MVP runner-up in 1992) but from 93 onwards I'd say no. The question is, is Pippen's best(94) better than Clyde's?(92). As an overall force, I'd say yes but Clyde was obviously a more dynamic offensive talent. Pippen had several years of 20+ points a game but the strength of his game was basically filling in the gaps of whatever the Bulls needed, and he succeeded in most/all aspects.

[jstern]

I think he was underrated when he played, because Jordan completely overshadow him, but at this time he's been overrated by many to be one of the absolute greatest players of all time. Very different from when he played.

[Go Getter]

I don't know if I'd build a franchise around him because he wasn't a great shot creator for himself but other than that and his ego issues I can't think of anything to criticize about his game. You could nitpick but really, Pip could do it all and was one of the best perimeter defenders ever.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen is a 16 point per game scorer for his career. He is overrated.

AND one of THE greatest perimeter defenders / playmakers ever.

Don't mind me, just correcting you. :cheers:

[jstern]

AND one of THE greatest perimeter defenders / playmakers ever.

Don't mind me, just correcting you. :cheers:

The thing is that I never heard that before the Kobe obsessive fanboys started repeating it over and over. I wonder why they kept repeating that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The thing is that I never heard that before the Kobe obsessive fanboys started repeating it over and over. I wonder why they kept repeating that.

Wait, what?

[97 bulls]

I don't know if I'd build a franchise around him because he wasn't a great shot creator for himself but other than that and his ego issues I can't think of anything to criticize about his game. You could nitpick but really, Pip could do it all and was one of the best perimeter defenders ever.
Magic wasnt that great at creating his own shot. Id say he got by. He was great at getting the ball to players who could get their own shot. The key is you bring in players to cover the Franchise players shortcomings. Theres no way you can honestly say the Bulls.wouldnt have won championship in 94 if they had Latrell Sprewell instead of Pete Myers.


Theres no doubt Pippen woukdve won an MVP, in 94 had the Bulls did a better job of replacing Jordan. They wouldve won 62 games and win the Finals

[97 bulls]

The thing is that I never heard that before the Kobe obsessive fanboys started repeating it over and over. I wonder why they kept repeating that.
I do. Ne-1 posted that GM survey done in 95 a whike back. Pippen was highly regarded in the NBA. I remember reading an interview with Tex Winter in which he discusses Krause.wanting to trade Pippen for Kemp and Hersey Hawkins. And he said Jackson, himself as well as the rest of the coaches said hed be nuts if he did that trade.

[Kblaze8855]

Underrated largely by Jordan fans who did not care for the Bulls as a team and want to diminish him in a way Jordan himself, their teammates, and coaching staff would not.

Perhaps overrated by a few people roughly my age who favor him over any modern swingmen and take it too far.

More often than not though...id say underrated.

[Kovach]

Magic wasnt that great at creating his own shot.
His unstoppable baby hook was not created by other players for him. Also, does plowing through the entire defense for a layup count as creating your own shot? If so then yes, he actually was that great at creating his own shot.

As for the subject of the thread, I'd say he is rated right where he belongs.

[Dragonyeuw]

AND one of THE greatest perimeter defenders / playmakers ever.

Don't mind me, just correcting you. :cheers:

Pippen has a youtube highlight reel called 'Ultimate Defender'( you may have seen it). It's just about as enjoyable to watch as any offensive highlight reel. Dude was a crazy defensive force....

[jstern]

I do. Ne-1 posted that GM survey done in 95 a whike back. Pippen was highly regarded in the NBA. I remember reading an interview with Tex Winter in which he discusses Krause.wanting to trade Pippen for Kemp and Hersey Hawkins. And he said Jackson, himself as well as the rest of the coaches said hed be nuts if he did that trade.

I don't deny Pippen's ability and I do think he's underrated, just that the Kobe fans keep exaggerating saying things that I've never heard about Pippen in order to diminish Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen has a youtube highlight reel called 'Ultimate Defender'( you may have seen it). It's just about as enjoyable to watch as any offensive highlight reel. Dude was a crazy defensive force....

Agreed. Part 1 AND 2 are amazing. Scottie33pippen (who posts here as "hitmanyr2k"), also has a "complete player" series. I had forgotten how good Scottie's back to the basket game was. Guy was a VERY good post player.

[STATUTORY]

Incredibly underrated and his legacy will be increasingly eroded and maligned as NBA fans become more stat obsessed with less emphasis on the specificites of the game.

What Pippen brought to the game were aspects that can't be effectively quantified. Amazing on ball defender, weakside helper, versatility both on offense and defense, court vision, etc

There's not many championship team in history of NBA that couldn't have been improved by replacing one of the main pieces with a prime pippen

[97 bulls]

His unstoppable baby hook was not created by other players for him. Also, does plowing through the entire defense for a layup count as creating your own shot? If so then yes, he actually was that great at creating his own shot.

As for the subject of the thread, I'd say he is rated right where he belongs.
Pippen had an extremely effective jumphook as well. And he was much better than Magic at one on one iso type situations.

[Kovach]

And he was much better than Magic at one on one iso type situations.
Really? How?

[TheMan]

I approve of this post


Da Fuq?...





- and it's 100% true....Pippen had a 5 year stretch of top 2 - 3 player in the NBA...

from 92' - 96' he was always referred as 2nd best allaround player in the League....


- his 92' and 93' seasons were some of the best basketball ever by anyone....his perimeter defense alone was unlike anything I ever seen.

- I would say he is vastly Overrated .....since MJ is so popular, many overlook Pippen....True Fans of basketball that watched him play....understand how valuable he was.

Jordan = .417 winning % without Pippen. ( 5 sub .500 seasons) 1/3rd of his career.....that alone says it all. ( not saying MJ wasn't a great player...but Pippen provided all the help he needed to make the Bull's a championship team)

[97 bulls]

Really? How?
Honestly, I cant even say that. Magics role on the team wasnt to take people off the dribble. In the event the oppositition got back and the defense was set, the ball went to Jabaar. Then it went to Worthy as Jabaar aged. Ive always maintained theyre about equal when it comes to the ability to score.

[97 bulls]

I don't deny Pippen's ability and I do think he's underrated, just that the Kobe fans keep exaggerating saying things that I've never heard about Pippen in order to diminish Jordan.
Thats because people tend to hold players to standard they dont hold others to.

Case and point


think a little bit of both. The dude gets overlooked because he played with Jordan but at the same time, he was such a great player. Now, do I think he is good enough to STILL, today, be one of the top 50 players of all time? No. He is not a guy like Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, etc who could lead a team to the finals without another star. But he does get overlooked a lot and I feel his defense gets overlooked as well.

This is Jbryan1984s post in this thread. He says Jordan and Shaq won without another star. What about Kobe? Rodman? Pippen? And James may have made it to the finals without a top caliber player, but he did so by being in a terrible conference and got swept while playing atrocious.

[Kblaze8855]

Magic wasnt a scorer by nature but he could have scored at a rate Pippen never did im sure of that. In 87 when Kareem went down he put up:

34/15
38/16
46/10/9
30/15
28/9
4 points 18 assist(40 point win only played 29 minutes)
32/14 the game Kareem came back for a few moments

Dropped down for a 26 point triple double the next game with Kareem fully back then went back to usual. Scored more than usual even after that but....he didnt just pour it on as he could have.

Magic could do whatever he felt like.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Replace Lebron with Pippen on the 07 Cavs and they don't get past the ECF. No chance at all. Pippen was beast, but he aint carrying that team's offense for a whole 4th quarter and two overtimes.

[Ne 1]

Magic wasnt a scorer by nature but he could have scored at a rate Pippen never did im sure of that. In 87 when Kareem went down he put up:

34/15
38/16
46/10/9
30/15
28/9
4 points 18 assist(40 point win only played 29 minutes)
32/14 the game Kareem came back for a few moments

Dropped down for a 26 point triple double the next game with Kareem fully back then went back to usual. Scored more than usual even after that but....he didnt just pour it on as he could have.

Magic could do whatever he felt like.

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:

18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

Pippen on an 80's run and gun team could've approached those numbers. He averaged 21/8/7 on 51% shooting on the '92 Bulls and that team's pace factor was 94.4, his season 22/9/6/49 FG% season in '94 came on a team with a pace factor of 91.9.

Now if we use '85 for comparison, the Nuggets played at the fastest pace(107.6) and the Showtime Lakers were only the 9th fastest team(103.2).

So a 21-22 ppg, 8-9 rpg, 6-7 apg going from a structured slower paced offensive to a fastbreak team with 10-15 extra possessions to work with.

[fpliii]

I don't know if he's either per se.

He has to be considered an all-time great considering he and Jordan split lead playmaking/defensive anchoring duties (Pip more so than MJ though; Jordan was more impactful as an overall individual talent, at least offensively), when these are duties almost exclusively reserved for points and bigs. How many guys arguably assumed both of those roles on championship-level teams? On the other hand, he's been overrated quite a bit due to agendas on this board (I'll leave it at that).

He's up there in the rankings and probably the best defender in league history that wasn't a big (in addition to his duties as a point forward for a good deal of his time in Chicago), but beyond that I'm not going to attempt to place him.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Who's higher on the all-time list, Pippen or Lebron?
lol

[Round Mound]

Underrated by Jordan Stans and Overrated by Kobe Stands. He Was The Best SF of the 90s All Around Wise There is No Denying That. Infact, Pippen Is One of the Best All Around and Team Players Ever. The Best Defending Perimeter Player Ever, Solid Scorer, Very Good Rebounder, Great Creator and Assist Man, Great Stealer and Great Versatility for a 6`8 Pointforward.

[97 bulls]

Magic wasnt a scorer by nature but he could have scored at a rate Pippen never did im sure of that. In 87 when Kareem went down he put up:

34/15
38/16
46/10/9
30/15
28/9
4 points 18 assist(40 point win only played 29 minutes)
32/14 the game Kareem came back for a few moments

Dropped down for a 26 point triple double the next game with Kareem fully back then went back to usual. Scored more than usual even after that but....he didnt just pour it on as he could have.

Magic could do whatever he felt like.
Magic and Pippen played in two different eras. The league on avg took roughly 5-800 more shots when Magic played in the early to mid 80s when compared to.the 90s. At what point is this fact implemented when statistics are brought up? If Pippen played in the early to mid 80s in his prime, his stats woild be along the lines of 23/9/7 with a high of 25/10/8.

[97 bulls]

Replace Lebron with Pippen on the 07 Cavs and they don't get past the ECF. No chance at all. Pippen was beast, but he aint carrying that team's offense for a whole 4th quarter and two overtimes.
Lol he carried the Bulls in the fourth quarter of game 6 in the NBA finals vs the Blazers. Youre literally saying he couldnt do something that he did. Not to mentione the fact that the Bulls were down by 15 pts. And he shut diwn Drexler. He scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, WTF?


And I guarantee if Pippen played James role vs the Mavs they wouldve won. Marion and Terry bitch slapped James.

Again you just cant hide the agenda. Even if you tried

[97 bulls]

Incredibly underrated and his legacy will be increasingly eroded and maligned as NBA fans become more stat obsessed with less emphasis on the specificites of the game.

What Pippen brought to the game were aspects that can't be effectively quantified. Amazing on ball defender, weakside helper, versatility both on offense and defense, court vision, etc

There's not many championship team in history of NBA that couldn't have been improved by replacing one of the main pieces with a prime pippen
Great post

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who's higher on the all-time list, Pippen or Lebron?
lol

Lebron is way higher now. 3 MVP's and a FMVP/title as the #1, with several dominant postseasons and regular seasons? Lebron is in the 12-16 range now at a minimum. Pippen is in the 22-27 range.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lol he carried the Bulls in the fourth quarter of game 6 in the NBA finals vs the Blazers. Youre literally saying he couldnt do something that he did. Not to mentione the fact that the Bulls were down by 15 pts. And he shut diwn Drexler. He scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, WTF?


And I guarantee if Pippen played James role vs the Mavs they wouldve won. Marion and Terry bitch slapped James.

Again you just cant hide the agenda. Even if you tried


I think Pippen is underrated. But he doesn't have the ability to carry a team like the 07 Cavs to the Finals. As for 2011, Im not denying that. They could have definitely won with Pippen in his spot. But we all already know what Pippen can do as a sidekick. Im sure he would have no problem being Wade's Robin in that series.

[97 bulls]

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:

18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

Pippen on an 80's run and gun team could've approached those numbers. He averaged 21/8/7 on 51% shooting on the '92 Bulls and that team's pace factor was 94.4, his season 22/9/6/49 FG% season in '94 came on a team with a pace factor of 91.9.

Now if we use '85 for comparison, the Nuggets played at the fastest pace(107.6) and the Showtime Lakers were only the 9th fastest team(103.2).

So a 21-22 ppg, 8-9 rpg, 6-7 apg going from a structured slower paced offensive to a fastbreak team with 10-15 extra possessions to work with.
Preach brotha.

[97 bulls]

I think Pippen is underrated. But he doesn't have the ability to carry a team like the 07 Cavs to the Finals. As for 2011, Im not denying that. They could have definitely won with Pippen in his spot. But we all already know what Pippen can do as a sidekick. Im sure he would have no problem being Wade's Robin in that series.
Call it what you want. Im just responding to your assumption that Pippen couldnt close games. Why didnt Wade go and defend Berea or Terry? People just dont understand the effort it takes to play defense at a high level. If Wade had to chase either if those two, I guarantee his offense wouldve been effected.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Call it what you want. Im just responding to your assumption that Pippen couldnt close games. Why didnt Wade go and defend Berea or Terry?


I think because they were relying on him more for scoring and didn't want to tire him out chasing those guys around screens

[Legends66NBA7]

A thread that went nearly 30 pages because he was called "2nd most overrated on ISH":

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135476

I think I can see why he's overrated and underrated, but it comes down to who your asking at times. I've seen people overrate and underrate Pippen, I think he's ranked just right.

Also, let's put actual arbitrary rankings into play:

If he's ranked Top 15-20 range, considered overrated ?

If he's ranked Top 25-30, rated correctly ?

If he's ranked Top 35-40 range, considered underrated ?

[DMV2]

I think he's underrated when compared with McHale, Worthy, and those types of guys. Those guys never got the label of a "sidekick" or second fiddle. But then again, Jordan was that damn good that he changed the way people look at the game.

It's also a fact that Pippen was the best SF of his generation (the 90's), yet that fact never gets any recognition.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I think he's underrated when compared with McHale, Worthy, and those types of guys.

Pippen was not appreciably better (if at all) than McHale prime vs. prime. He was better than Worthy, however.

[97 bulls]

I think because they were relying on him more for scoring and didn't want to tire him out chasing those guys around screens
Well, Pippen had to do it. And run the offense as well as score. That game vs the Lakers when he defended Magic, he scored 20 pts, had 10 rbds, and 5 asts. Magic shot 31% from the field and had 4 TOs. And was visibly flustered. He literally had a hard time getting past half court. And that was with 10 seconds. Just think if he had only 8 seconds to get past half court.

[ILLsmak]

That depends on exactly where that is. Definitely top 50 all-time, imo, and in the conversation as the best perimeter defender ever.

High bb IQ, great intangibles, willing to do the dirty work, didn't need the ball to be effective...

His two downfall areas were his deficiencies on offense, and that he's a beta, rather than an alpha.

Nah he's definitely an alpha. He and MJ clashed. Common misconception, two alpha players can't coexist and win. It happens on nearly EVERY TEAM. What other player would Pippen have deferred to. Anyway, the ball was in his hands a lot, too. It's not like he was a role player.

Over/under... depends on who you ask. I'd definitely want him on my all-time team... no matter who I already had.

-Smak

[97 bulls]

Pippen was not appreciably better (if at all) than McHale prime vs. prime. He was better than Worthy, however.
Who would you pick between Pippen and Mchale?

[97 bulls]

Nah he's definitely an alpha. He and MJ clashed. Common misconception, two alpha players can't coexist and win. It happens on nearly EVERY TEAM. What other player would Pippen have deferred to. Anyway, the ball was in his hands a lot, too. It's not like he was a role player.

Over/under... depends on who you ask. I'd definitely want him on my all-time team... no matter who I already had.

-Smak
Its funny. People act as if he was a bad offensive player. Theres about 450 players in the NBA. He was no worse than top 15 every year. Top 10 when Jordan left. I believe he was seventh in 94

[Legends66NBA7]

Who would you pick between Pippen and Mchale?

That would probably depend on who my first option is.

In today's league, it probably favours Pippen than McHale, but McHale as a 2nd-3rd option would win a title.

[Sarcastic]

Nah he's definitely an alpha. He and MJ clashed. Common misconception, two alpha players can't coexist and win. It happens on nearly EVERY TEAM. What other player would Pippen have deferred to. Anyway, the ball was in his hands a lot, too. It's not like he was a role player.

Over/under... depends on who you ask. I'd definitely want him on my all-time team... no matter who I already had.

-Smak


Incorrect. True Alphas never defer, unless they are too young or too old. Example is Kobe/Shaq. It worked in the beginning because Kobe was still too young. We all know what happened by 2004 though.

Also look at Miami year 1. Wade and Lebron were 2 Alphas, and their games got in the way of each other. It wasn't until last year when Wade started to decline that he deferred to Lebron.

[Money 23]

Ridiculously Overrated by: Smoke117, 97 bulls, Roundball_Rock, Fatal9, and a ton of Kobe stans w/ an agenda. Everywhere else beyond ISH, and those posters with an agenda, he's quite underrated.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Who would you pick between Pippen and Mchale?

They're about equal in terms of impact. Different, but roughly equal. McHale brought insane scoring and efficiency in the post and good man defense and great team defense and shotblocking.

[Legends66NBA7]

Ridiculously Overrated by: Smoke117, 97 bulls, Roundball_Rock, Fatal9, and a ton of Kobe stans w/ an agenda. Everywhere else beyond ISH, and those posters with an agenda, he's quite underrated.

Thoughts ?:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135476

^Similar posters you mentioned are in that very thread too. But there are some gems for quotes in there.

[Whoah10115]

Highly overrated


Well he's better than Stockton.



Wades clearly a better scorer than Pippen. Thats as far as it goes. Defense, rebounding, teamwork, running an offense, passing, basically every other facet of basketball Pippen is better.


Overly simplistic.



I've heard "NBA experts" saying "some people don't remember, but Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for a few years when they were playing together". They referring to Jordan. Which is false.

Hes overrated. Particularly by NBA experts. Some of them talk as if he was a better player than Ewing, Clyde, Isiah, Barkley, etc.
Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but people remember him as far better than what he actually was due to his achievements in a team. Certain posters act as if he'd be a guaranteed lock for top 5 player in the league right now for most of his career, when in reality he'd be a fringe top 10-15 guy, like he was back in his day.


Idiot



Wades a better shooter, free throw shooter, passer, blocker, post player, playmaker, slasher, more clutch, consistent and more efficient.

Its not particularly close. Wades better. Melo is better. Durant is better.


Wrong on those and idiot.



I disagree with Wade being a better playmaker, midrange, and clutch player. Wade has failed far more than he succeeded. And in situations where his teams shoukdve won. And you can exclude 06. I feel he was aided drastically by the Refs. So in your opinion, hiw is Wade more clutch?


This is almost all wrong. Wade was a very very good midrange player before Lebron showed up. And how he's not clutch or has failed more than succeeded is absolutely beyond me. That's because it's incorrect, so I can't grasp its accuracy.



Pippen is a 16 point per game scorer for his career. He is overrated.


Ignorant comment.



Magic wasnt that great at creating his own shot. Id say he got by.


Massively stupid comment.

[CavaliersFTW]

Overrated by 97Bulls and most Kobe stans trying to sell MJ short

Underrated by most Jordan stans trying to prop MJ up

Rated more or less where he should be by most NBA fans

[gengiskhan]

Or do you feel he is rated where he should be? I have seen a lot of posters say he doesn't get his due for the Bulls' success. Even one (retard) going as far as saying he was better than Magic/Bird. And some hardcore Jordan worshipers say that Jordan made him the player he was. Which side you you lean on?

Claerly OVERRATED.

Pippen wouldn't be Pippen if he didnt played alongside GOAT.

Pippen wouldn't be rated above 'Nique or Clyde if didnt play alongside GOAT.

Pippen's leadership status is also questioned many times like Kobe's leadership cuz of frequent disappearences & chocking in 4th quarter & also quitting on the team in the must win PO game in 1994 ECF against Knicks.

Pippen is a great player. But definitely wont be all-time great if Mike didnt carry his sorry si$$y mentality.

[Whoah10115]

I don't know if he's either per se.

He has to be considered an all-time great considering he and Jordan split lead playmaking/defensive anchoring duties (Pip more so than MJ though; Jordan was more impactful as an overall individual talent, at least offensively), when these are duties almost exclusively reserved for points and bigs. How many guys arguably assumed both of those roles on championship-level teams? On the other hand, he's been overrated quite a bit due to agendas on this board (I'll leave it at that).

He's up there in the rankings and probably the best defender in league history that wasn't a big (in addition to his duties as a point forward for a good deal of his time in Chicago), but beyond that I'm not going to attempt to place him.



See, this is a good post.



I don't even want to enter this thread, but I clearly have nothing to do for another hour.


Pippen is just stupidly rated. That's it. Season stats show that he was able to score over 20 while alongside Michael. They show that he could score 21.8 and 22 without Michael, and lead a team to 55 wins, the minute they lose the greatest player of all-time.


Had this guy not played on a team with Michael Jordan, or without the Triangle, he would be the starting PG. Instead, he is the ultimate point forward. And because of their pace, the equal-opportunity style of offense, the lack of offensive players outside of him and Michael and because he wasn't technically the PG, he had low assists. But he was the point, in a real half-court system. Comparing to Anthony is stupidly stupid. Looking at this stats and concluding anything is stupidly stupid. Offensively, he was a great player. An elite player. He wasn't an elite scorer, but he was a legitimate first option scorer. He could score 20 while running the team, being the best ball-handler at his position (until Grant Hill showed up), by far the best passer at his position...a pure basketball player, with elite athleticism and incredible skill, while enough talent to actually dominate on the defensive side of the ball?


Do I think he's a better player than Dwyane Wade? I don't know. Pippen does more things than Wade, but Pippen is quite possibly the most all-around player in NBA history. So concluding that he is because he does more...that's stupid. After Jordan retired, he established himself on people's lists as more than a Robin. You're always gonna have a bunch of lite Skip Bayless's in the world, including fans who don't know how to have an opinion that comes from watching and not accumulating accomplishments and numbers.

But for the most part, people recognized him as what he was. He was a top 5 player. By then, Pat was on his way down. Would I take that Shaq over Pippen? No, but if you want to take those 3 centers and Karl Malone and Jordan, then that's fine. But you're not taking Stockton over him, you're not taking Payton over him. Ewing and Barkley, by 1994? Probably not. Grant Hill? Maybe on his way, but never passed him. But that's where he ranked.


A fringe 10-15 player in today's league? Sure there.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ridiculously Overrated by: Smoke117, 97 bulls, Roundball_Rock, Fatal9, and a ton of Kobe stans w/ an agenda. Everywhere else beyond ISH, and those posters with an agenda, he's quite underrated.

Yep.

[knicksman]

definitely not better than bosh. Thats how far lebron compared to jordan. Jordan impacts like lebron but most of his impact comes without diminishing the impact of his playmakers while lebrons does otherwise. Kobe is even better than lebron thats why its a joke to compare him to durant.

[Smoke117]

definitely not better than bosh. Thats how far lebron compared to jordan. Jordan impacts like lebron but most of his impact comes without diminishing the impact of his playmakers while lebrons does otherwise. Kobe is even better than lebron thats why its a joke to compare him to durant.

Knicksman continues to explore the boundaries of stupidity.

[Whoah10115]

Knicksman continues to explore the boundaries of stupidity.


See...I can love you too...I agree.

[97 bulls]

Well he's better than Stockton.





Overly simplistic.





Idiot





Wrong on those and idiot.





This is almost all wrong. Wade was a very very good midrange player before Lebron showed up. And how he's not clutch or has failed more than succeeded is absolutely beyond me. That's because it's incorrect, so I can't grasp its accuracy.





Ignorant comment.





Massively stupid comment.
I didnt say Wade is a bad midrange shooter. Id say neither is good enough to trump the other. I also didn't imply he wasnt clutch. But Ive seen nothing frim him that would trump Pippen. In fact, his teams have underachived.

I think you need to take time and read posts thoroughly. You twisted a lot of my points

[Whoah10115]

I didnt say Wade is a bad midrange shooter. Id say neither is good enough to trump the other. I also didn't imply he wasnt clutch. But Ive seen nothing frim him that would trump Pippen. In fact, his teams have underachived.

I think you need to take time and read posts thoroughly. You twisted a lot of my points



I don't think I twisted them, unless you think I got them twisted.


Mostly, I think all of those posts (obviously, not just yours) are missing context.

[iamgine]

For all the credit Pippen get for winning 55 games, lets give some credit to Horace Grant. The team was 34-31 the very next season without Grant before MJ comes back.

[Whoah10115]

For all the credit Pippen get for winning 55 games, lets give some credit to Horace Grant. The team was 34-31 the very next season without Grant before MJ comes back.



Grant had his best season in 1994. It was more than just him tho, the team wasn't as good the next year...and they couldn't sustain that pace. Not to mention Armstrong going out and Harper coming in. Not as good a fit. But yes, you're right on Grant.

[97 bulls]

For all the credit Pippen get for winning 55 games, lets give some credit to Horace Grant. The team was 34-31 the very next season without Grant before MJ comes back.
Grant played a huge role on the Bulls and it showed. They had no real interior defense. and all their bigs battled injuries the whole season.

When you think about it, The Bulls lost Jordan, Pippen, And Rodman for a considerable amount of time. And really were able to not lose much if anything. Them losing Grant REALLY hurt them in 95.

[97 bulls]

I don't think I twisted them, unless you think I got them twisted.


Mostly, I think all of those posts (obviously, not just yours) are missing context.
Perhaps you didnt intentionally twist my statement. It just didnt seem as if you really took the time to comprehend my point.

I also feel Im more than fair and use context in my posts. Its not as if I just throw something out there and dont back it up.

[plowking]

Whoah10115 you look like an imbecile when you call me an idiot despite agreeing with most of my points in this thread. Don't be mad because I owned you in previous threads.

[Whoah10115]

Whoah10115 you look like an imbecile when you call me an idiot despite agreeing with most of my points in this thread. Don't be mad because I owned you in previous threads.


Stop it.

[TheBigVeto]

Or do you feel he is rated where he should be? I have seen a lot of posters say he doesn't get his due for the Bulls' success. Even one (retard) going as far as saying he was better than Magic/Bird. And some hardcore Jordan worshipers say that Jordan made him the player he was. Which side you you lean on?

He is rated correctly for most of the time. He's a top 10 SFs of all time, one of the top 50 GOAT players and one of the best defenders of all time.

That guy who says he's better than Magic/Bird, is exactly what you said, a retard.

[Calabis]

Pippen was a damn good player, but he is overrated like a mf'er on this board. People like to point out his all around peak years(5-6 year window)..but if you do that with other guys, they seem to put up better/similar numbers, while being the oppositions main priority....Pippen had a 1 1/2 year window of being the man...he got to the second round of the playoffs and was on the verge of missing the playoffs the following year. Apparently this is a knock on other greats, but on here its as if Pippen won two titles. Pippen was the best small forward of the 90's, top 10-12 player of that era, but he was not 2nd best to Jordan.

Drexler: 24.2 pts/6.8 reb/6.1 ast

Pippen: 20.4 pts/7.5 reb/ 5.9 ast

[97 bulls]

You wanna talk about context Whoah? This is a response from OSB when I asked him who hed take between Pippen and Mchale


They're about equal in terms of impact. Different, but roughly equal. McHale brought insane scoring and efficiency in the post and good man defense and great team defense and shotblocking.

Now heres context both were put in similar situations. Mchale and the Celtics lost Bird 6 games into the season in 89. They replaced Bird with Reggie Lewis. Who was a damn good forward. The Celtics struggled to stay above .500 in an expansion year which netted them an extra 8 wins at the hands of those expansion teams. Then got their ass handed to them by them in the first round. Mchale had his normal stats. Had a sevicable replacement for Bird, had most of his championship team, in an expansion year.

Basically, alll the things Ive seen him hold against Pippen hes excused Mchale on. And Mchale was in a much better situation to succeed.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was a damn good player, but he is overrated like a mf'er on this board. People like to point out his all around peak years(5-6 year window)..but if you do that with other guys, they seem to put up better/similar numbers, while being the oppositions main priority....Pippen had a 1 1/2 year window of being the man...he got to the second round of the playoffs and was on the verge of missing the playoffs the following year. Apparently this is a knock on other greats, but on here its as if Pippen won two titles. Pippen was the best small forward of the 90's, top 10-12 player of that era, but he was not 2nd best to Jordan.

Drexler: 24.2 pts/6.8 reb/6.1 ast

Pippen: 20.4 pts/7.5 reb/ 5.9 ast
Lol a knock on other greats? Every other day Wade, James, and Bryant get pases for what they did in 09, 07, and 06. Jordan gets a pass even though he did squat before he got sufficient help.

Even more, forget what everyone else says. Do you judge everyone fairly?

[Smoke117]

Pippen was a damn good player, but he is overrated like a mf'er on this board. People like to point out his all around peak years(5-6 year window)..but if you do that with other guys, they seem to put up better/similar numbers, while being the oppositions main priority....Pippen had a 1 1/2 year window of being the man...he got to the second round of the playoffs and was on the verge of missing the playoffs the following year. Apparently this is a knock on other greats, but on here its as if Pippen won two titles. Pippen was the best small forward of the 90's, top 10-12 player of that era, but he was not 2nd best to Jordan.

Drexler: 24.2 pts/6.8 reb/6.1 ast

Pippen: 20.4 pts/7.5 reb/ 5.9 ast

I wasn't going to post anything in this thread as we've all argued this whole thing to death and it's just boring, but Drexler and Pippen were actually really similar as far as scorers. The Main difference is that Drexler played in those high paced up tempo Blazer offense's and Pippen played in the slow, half court, triangle offense. He could have scored just as much as Drexler if he you replaced him on those Blazer teams running and gunning as he was at his best in the open court as a scorer. That's putting aside the fact that Pippen was vastly superior defensively too. I've always said that I found the whole Jordan vs Drexler hype in the 92 finals silly as the two best players were on the Bulls. Pippen was better than Drexler.

[97 bulls]

I wasn't going to post anything in this thread as we've all argued this whole thing to death and it's just boring, but Drexler and Pippen were actually really similar as far as scorers. The Main difference is that Drexler played in those high paced up tempo Blazer offense's and Pippen played in the slow, half court, triangle offense. He could have scored just as much as Drexler if he you replaced him on those Blazer teams running and gunning as he was at his best in the open court as a scorer. That's putting aside the fact that Pippen was vastly superior defensively too. I've always said that I found the whole Jordan vs Drexler hype in the 92 finals was silly as the two best players were on the Bulls. Pippen was better than Drexler.
Its funny. Pippen dominated Drexler in that fourth quarter of game six in 92. And the Blazers had that 15 pt lead going in. And yet they still refuse to get their head oit of the sand

[Whoah10115]

You wanna talk about context Whoah? This is a response from OSB when I asked him who hed take between Pippen and Mchale



Now heres context both were put in similar situations. Mchale and the Celtics lost Bird 6 games into the season in 89. They replaced Bird with Reggie Lewis. Who was a damn good forward. The Celtics struggled to stay above .500 in an expansion year which netted them an extra 8 wins at the hands of those expansion teams. Then got their ass handed to them by them in the first round. Mchale had his normal stats. Had a sevicable replacement for Bird, had most of his championship team, in an expansion year.

Basically, alll the things Ive seen him hold against Pippen hes excused Mchale on. And Mchale was in a much better situation to succeed.



Well, some people are stuck on what they want to be stuck on. Pippen was better than McHale. As far as you go, I disagree with the points on Magic. I think that's insane. Magic could pretty much as he pleased, in just about every facet of the game.

[Calabis]

Its funny. Pippen dominated Drexler in that fourth quarter of game six in 92. And the Blazers had that 15 pt lead going in. And yet they still refuse to get their head oit of the sand

He didn't dominate shit, lucky I'm on my phone, I posted a in one of ur previous pip threads and showed he didn't do what u claim

[Duncan21formvp]

On sports forums he is overrated. In retrospect all time he is where he needs to be.

[Calabis]

Lol a knock on other greats? Every other day Wade, James, and Bryant get pases for what they did in 09, 07, and 06. Jordan gets a pass even though he did squat before he got sufficient help.

Even more, forget what everyone else says. Do you judge everyone fairly?

Wade, James and Bryant are all time greats and better than Pip....Jordan was still a dominate player who couldn't win until ur hero got past his migraines and developed, hard to beat dynasty teams all alone...no one ever said pip didn't contribute, but u acting like this mfer is anywhere near Magic is a complete joke

[longhornfan1234]

Who's higher on the all-time list, Pippen or Lebron?
lol


LeBron. :biggums: :biggums:


LeBron is a top 15 player of all-time. Scottie is a top 25 player of all-time.

[longhornfan1234]

I dont see anything funny about that. Wade is clearly better player than Scottie.
:facepalm

Wade is a top 50-60 player. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, brah.

[PJR]

:facepalm

Wade is a top 50-60 player. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, brah.

Wade is clearly a better player than Scottie. Let's not be stupid.

[longhornfan1234]

Wade is clearly a better player than Scottie. Let's not be stupid.
Scottie is better passer, defender, rebounder, play maker, and took his team out of the first round without a stacked team. Wade has NEVER took his team past the first round without a stacked team. MJ doesn't win six rings without Pippen. :coleman:

[Whoah10115]

Did someone say Wade is top 50-60? :roll:



And Scottie is better than Clyde Drexler.

[97 bulls]

He didn't dominate shit, lucky I'm on my phone, I posted a in one of ur previous pip threads and showed he didn't do what u claim
Then I look forward to you getting home. Cuz I cant wait to see how you spin what happened in that game.

[97 bulls]

Wade, James and Bryant are all time greats and better than Pip....Jordan was still a dominate player who couldn't win until ur hero got past his migraines and developed, hard to beat dynasty teams all alone...no one ever said pip didn't contribute, but u acting like this mfer is anywhere near Magic is a complete joke
So in other words they get passes for being no more succesful in similar situations and Pippen shouldnt. Youre incredible. It takes real balls to be this contradictory and not give a damn

[Calabis]

Then I look forward to you getting home. Cuz I cant wait to see how you spin what happened in that game.

Don't need to spin shit sir!!!

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)

Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game

Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 in fourth quarter

[Calabis]

So in other words they get passes for being no more succesful in similar situations and Pippen shouldnt. Youre incredible. It takes real balls to be this contradictory and not give a damn

16/6/5 GOAT Perimeter Defender

30/6/5 Great Perimeter Defender

24/4/5 Damn good Perimeter Defender, great blocker of shots

25/5/4 Great Perimeter Defender

you tell me who would be the last one you take

[Calabis]

Did someone say Wade is top 50-60? :roll:



And Scottie is better than Clyde Drexler.

Nah very similar, Scottie better defender, Cylde better scorer

[Rysio]

very underrated. some can argue he was the most important player during 6 championship runs but he will never get the credit.

[PJR]

Scottie is better passer, defender, rebounder, play maker, and took his team out of the first round without a stacked team. Wade has NEVER took his team past the first round without a stacked team. MJ doesn't win six rings without Pippen. :coleman:

Wade led his team out the first round his ROOKIE year, idiot.

http://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI


Phil would NEVER call for the ball to be in Toni Kukoc's hands if Wade was his go to guy, I know that much...:roll:

[guy]

very underrated. some can argue he was the most important player during 6 championship runs but he will never get the credit.

:oldlol: it's comments like this that make him very overrated.

[97 bulls]

Don't need to spin shit sir!!!

Armstrong assist to Hansen for 3 points

Hansen pass to King flag foul by Drexler..free throws

Pippen scores on post up

King fouled free throws

Hansen to Pip, post up turn around

Missed shot rebound Armstrong, dribbles out hits turn around

Pip to King, backs up Williams, who flops, hits turn around

All this with Blazers imploding on offense..Bulls within 3

Jordan now enters game after Blazers timeout

Pippen catches them napping drives in for a lay-up

Jordan drives floater over Cliff

Pippen hits 3 with shot clock running down, nice shot... ties game at 85

Jordan hits tough jumper falling to right(87-87)

Jordan steal dunk(89-87)

Pippen jumper from free throw line (91-89)

Jordan fadeaway (93-91)

Jordan dribble up the court, blows by Drexler lay-up (95-91) (35 seconds)

Pippen dumb foul, gives free throws (95-93)

Jordan fouled intentionally free throws(97-93) 11.8 seconds left

ball game

Pippen played a damn good game but u talk about it like he went on a one man tear...in the time Jordan/Grant are on the bench, King scores 6 points, Pippen 4 points......Jordan enters and scores 12 points, Pippen 7.....Jordan outscores Pippen 12-11 in fourth quarter
Lol I dont believe youre trivializing what Pippen did in that fourth quarter. Factor in Pippens defense on Drexler. He tied the game twice, and the go ahead basket. Youve hit a new low. So now, Pippen has to score a certain amount of pts within a few minutes?

Bottom line. Pippen scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, shut down Drexler, and ran their offense to perfection.

[97 bulls]

:oldlol: it's comments like this that make him very overrated.
Totally overlooked his comment. He said "ONE CAN ARGUE IT". A case can be made that Pippen was the most important when you factor in his contribution to the team. Now that doesnt make him better than Jordan, but his responsibility and workload was no less.

[DatAsh]

Totally overlooked his comment. He said "ONE CAN ARGUE IT". A case can be made that Pippen was the most important when you factor in his contribution to the team. Now that doesnt make him better than Jordan, but his responsibility and workload was no less.

That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".

[guy]

Totally overlooked his comment. He said "ONE CAN ARGUE IT". A case can be made that Pippen was the most important when you factor in his contribution to the team. Now that doesnt make him better than Jordan, but his responsibility and workload was no less.

No I didn't overlook anything. Even saying its an argument is one of the dumbest claims posters make around here. It's one thing if there was another player similar to Jordan on the team I.e. you can say Bosh is more important then Wade even though he's not better, but that's not the case.. If you had to go back in time and had to give up one or the other, theres no coach, GM, owner, player or analyst that doesn't have some personal favoritism toward Pippen that would even think about taking Pippen over Jordan.

[guy]

That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".

Exactly.

[longhornfan1234]

Wade led his team out the first round his ROOKIE year, idiot.

http://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI


Phil would NEVER call for the ball to be in Toni Kukoc's hands if Wade was his go to guy, I know that much...:roll:

Butler, Odom, and Eddie Jones? :biggums:

[97 bulls]

No I didn't overlook anything. Even saying its an argument is one of the dumbest claims posters make around here. It's one thing if there was another player similar to Jordan on the team I.e. you can say Bosh is more important then Wade even though he's not better, but that's not the case.. If you had to go back in time and had to give up one or the other, theres no coach, GM, owner, player or analyst that doesn't have some personal favoritism toward Pippen that would even think about taking Pippen over Jordan.
Absolutely. But you arent winning with either having to carry a huge workload. Id like to ask you. What were their roles on the team? In yoir opinion

[97 bulls]

Wade led his team out the first round his ROOKIE year, idiot.

http://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI


Phil would NEVER call for the ball to be in Toni Kukoc's hands if Wade was his go to guy, I know that much...:roll:
I dont know about that. considering the situation. There wasnt gonna be enough time tk catch the ball and iso. Id have more faith in Kukocs jumpshot over either Pippens or Wades.

[97 bulls]

That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".
If thats the case then I vehemently disagree

[guy]

Absolutely. But you arent winning with either having to carry a huge workload. Id like to ask you. What were their roles on the team? In yoir opinion

Who said they didn't need Pippen to carry a significant workload to win? That doesn't mean there was an argument between who was more important. The fact that we are even having discussions about this makes him overrated.

They both did pretty much everything with Pippen taking a bit more of a role in facilitating and arguably defense (specifically in the 2nd three-peat) and Jordan taking a much larger role scoring especially at the end of games. And Pippen taking a larger role in certain aspects doesn't necessarily mean he was actually better at those aspects, but more because Jordan taking more of a role in everything would not have been an efficient strategy when there were other alternatives so he could focus more on aspects there weren't alternatives for such as scoring cause he was by far their best option.

They both took different leadership approaches, Jordan being aggressive and Pippen being passive. And when the team was in a slump, needed a big game in a playoff series, or just needed to send a message or intimidate an opponent with his play, they looked to Jordan.

[Whoah10115]

Nah very similar, Scottie better defender, Cylde better scorer



To be honest, it's not even really that close. Drexler is the better scorer. Pippen wouldn't have put up those scoring numbers, tho he'd have averaged more than he did. But he would have had more assists and his assists don't do justice to his playmaking and his passing. The guy was a PG.

[gengiskhan]

1993 NBA Finals, Game 6 @ Phoenix.

The ultimate Pippen "choke" in Clutch game.

Coach Westphal pointing to Pippen giving the "chokeing sign of Miller" in Clutch 4th quarter crunch time. classic. :applause:

1993 MVP Barkley pointing to Pippen with "chokeing sign of Miller" in clutch 4th quarter crunch time....another Classic . :applause:

Pippen responsible for 24 secs Shot Clock violation....TWICE.


GOAT enters the game after the rest.....

Bulls score the lowest 4th Quarter total in NBA Finals History....12 Pts.

Jordan scores the "ULTRA CLUTCH" 9 pts out of 12 pts....

Paxon hits the Game winning 3 pointer....

Rest is History

Pippen choked away 2 crucial 4th quarter TURNOVER giving SUNS a 4 pts lead with 4 mins left the game!!

Pippen scored ZERO out of possible 12 pts of 4th Quarter

Pippen still won the Game 6 of NBA Finals ON THE ROAD...

...as usual, GOAT saved Pippen's sorry little si$$y choking ar$e & made him a champ again.

case closed.

[Calabis]

Lol I dont believe youre trivializing what Pippen did in that fourth quarter. Factor in Pippens defense on Drexler. He tied the game twice, and the go ahead basket. Youve hit a new low. So now, Pippen has to score a certain amount of pts within a few minutes?

Bottom line. Pippen scored 11 pts in that fourth quarter, shut down Drexler, and ran their offense to perfection.

:facepalm

Dude you need to watch the damn game, Drexler was off the entire game, they just imploded as a team in the 4th and when Jordan re entered, guess who guarded Drexler?...and reference trivializing what Pippen did....according to you he dominated, when the fact he didn't, he was damn good, but so was Jordan who came through down the stretch.

[Calabis]

That's just a politically correct way of saying "I think Pippen was basically as good as Jordan".

:applause:

he's already put him on Magic and Birds level

[Legends66NBA7]

One CANNOT argue that Pippen was the most important player during their 6 title runs over Jordan.

It's not arguable, whatsoever. Come on... He was the second most important player, no doubt, but you stretch him to the overrated line by saying he was the most important player.

[hitmanyr2k]

1993 NBA Finals, Game 6 @ Phoenix.

The ultimate Pippen "choke" in Clutch game.

Coach Westphal pointing to Pippen giving the "chokeing sign of Miller" in Clutch 4th quarter crunch time. classic. :applause:

1993 MVP Barkley pointing to Pippen with "chokeing sign of Miller" in clutch 4th quarter crunch time....another Classic . :applause:

Pippen responsible for 24 secs Shot Clock violation....TWICE.


GOAT enters the game after the rest.....

Bulls score the lowest 4th Quarter total in NBA Finals History....12 Pts.

Jordan scores the "ULTRA CLUTCH" 9 pts out of 12 pts....

Paxon hits the Game winning 3 pointer....

Rest is History

Pippen choked away 2 crucial 4th quarter TURNOVER giving SUNS a 4 pts lead with 4 mins left the game!!

Pippen scored ZERO out of possible 12 pts of 4th Quarter

Pippen still won the Game 6 of NBA Finals ON THE ROAD...

...as usual, GOAT saved Pippen's sorry little si$$y choking ar$e & made him a champ again.

case closed.

Eh, the Bulls aren't even in the Finals without Pippen's play. With the Bulls down 0-2 in the ECF and the Knicks looking for the knockout punch in Game 3 Jordan didn't exactly have a stellar shooting game but his team picked it up...Pippen in particular. Same goes for the closeout Game 6 against the Knicks where Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while Pippen was hitting the daggers down the stretch to send the Knicks home. That's why you have two stars on the team. One to pick up the slack when the other is struggling.

[97 bulls]

1993 NBA Finals, Game 6 @ Phoenix.

The ultimate Pippen "choke" in Clutch game.

Coach Westphal pointing to Pippen giving the "chokeing sign of Miller" in Clutch 4th quarter crunch time. classic. :applause:

1993 MVP Barkley pointing to Pippen with "chokeing sign of Miller" in clutch 4th quarter crunch time....another Classic . :applause:

Pippen responsible for 24 secs Shot Clock violation....TWICE.


GOAT enters the game after the rest.....

Bulls score the lowest 4th Quarter total in NBA Finals History....12 Pts.

Jordan scores the "ULTRA CLUTCH" 9 pts out of 12 pts....

Paxon hits the Game winning 3 pointer....

Rest is History

Pippen choked away 2 crucial 4th quarter TURNOVER giving SUNS a 4 pts lead with 4 mins left the game!!

Pippen scored ZERO out of possible 12 pts of 4th Quarter

Pippen still won the Game 6 of NBA Finals ON THE ROAD...

...as usual, GOAT saved Pippen's sorry little si$$y choking ar$e & made him a champ again.

case closed.
I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit

[97 bulls]

Eh, the Bulls aren't even in the Finals without Pippen's play. With the Bulls down 0-2 in the ECF and the Knicks looking for the knockout punch in Game 3 Jordan didn't exactly have a stellar shooting game but his team picked it up...Pippen in particular. Same goes for the closeout Game 6 against the Knicks where Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while Pippen was hitting the daggers down the stretch to send the Knicks home. That's why you have two stars on the team. One to pick up the slack when the other is struggling.
Or game 2 in 91. When Jordan got into foul trouble I almost died. Pippens defense was spectacular that game. And basically, it saved Jordan from having to defend him.

[Leviathon1121]

I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit

You are just as bad as he is to be honest, both of you go to ridiculous extremes to diminish each player, you just type it better.

[97 bulls]

You are just as bad as he is to be honest, both of you go to ridiculous extremes to diminish each player, you just type it better.
Lol why woukd you say such? I dont diminish Jordan. I just respect the fact that the Bulls were more than just Jordan

[Leviathon1121]

I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit

Like I said, you guys both go to ridiculous extremes to diminish both players.

[97 bulls]

Who said they didn't need Pippen to carry a significant workload to win? That doesn't mean there was an argument between who was more important. The fact that we are even having discussions about this makes him overrated.

They both did pretty much everything with Pippen taking a bit more of a role in facilitating and arguably defense (specifically in the 2nd three-peat) and Jordan taking a much larger role scoring especially at the end of games. And Pippen taking a larger role in certain aspects doesn't necessarily mean he was actually better at those aspects, but more because Jordan taking more of a role in everything would not have been an efficient strategy when there were other alternatives so he could focus more on aspects there weren't alternatives for such as scoring cause he was by far their best option.

They both took different leadership approaches, Jordan being aggressive and Pippen being passive. And when the team was in a slump, needed a big game in a playoff series, or just needed to send a message or intimidate an opponent with his play, they looked to Jordan.
Great post. I do disagree with you saying Pippens leadership was "submissive". Id say it was supportive.

[gengiskhan]

I hate Jordan fans like you Ghengis. I find myself having to diminish Jordans greatness to prove a point. In that game six, in the span youre refering to, Jordan was 3/15. Pippen only took two shots. Grant took 2, and Paxson hit the game winner. THEY ALL SHOT BAD. It wasnt as if Jordan went 12/15 or something. I remember my friend pointing this out to me. He litterally looked like Kobe out there. He wasnt even looking to pass the ball. It was their defense that won that game for them.

I dont remember Westphal or Barkley doing that, but even if they did, Pippen has almost as many Rings as they have fingers to wrap around their throat. One of them at the expense of those two. So who gives a shit

:facepalm

Gosh these fake revisionists. :rolleyes:

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: Mr Jordan had 3 3ptFGM / 5 3ptFGA in first 3 Quarters

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: Mr. Jordan had 13 FGM / 26 FGA in all 4 Quarters. Thats 50%FG ave. That is Excellent for NBA Finals btw

How did MJ shot poorly :biggums:

Like I said, keep on "revising" & go "over the top" to improve & legitamize Pippen's all-time greatness.

at the end of it all, Pippen is still a trail blazer Pippen, a choker without His Airness, GOAT on his side.

[jayfan]

Underrated...as a punk.

[guy]

Great post. I do disagree with you saying Pippens leadership was "submissive". Id say it was supportive.

I didn't mean it like that, nor did I mean to imply he wasn't an effective leader. He was. They were good cop/bad cop. Pippen's supportive leadership was effective by balancing out Jordan's aggressive approach.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm

Gosh these fake revisionists. :rolleyes:

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: Mr Jordan had 3 3ptFGM / 5 3ptFGA in first 3 Quarters

1993 NBA Finals @ phoenix: Mr. Jordan had 13 FGM / 26 FGA in all 4 Quarters. Thats 50%FG ave. That is Excellent for NBA Finals btw

How did MJ shot poorly :biggums:

Like I said, keep on "revising" & go "over the top" to improve & legitamize Pippen's all-time greatness.

at the end of it all, Pippen is still a trail blazer Pippen, a choker without His Airness, GOAT on his side.
You were the one that brought up that fourth quarter. Thats why I qualified my point by saying in that span you were reffering to. Which was Jordan scoring all but 3 pts in that fourth quarter. Pippen had a great game overall as did Jordan. His stat line was 23/12/5 for that game.

You cant even stay on your own point.

[bizil]

In terms of technical brilliance on BOTH SIDES of the ball, Pippen is arguably the best SF of all time in that regard. But in terms of DOMINANCE on both sides of the ball, Bron takes the cake at SF. DOMINANCE is the number attribute that makes a player great. Pip was a great defender, passer, and rebounder at the SF.

The part that hurts Pip though is the scoring aspect. U got guys in that 6'6 to 6'8 bracket like MJ, Kobe, Hondo, Bron, etc. who have great all around games on both sides of the ball AND are dominant scorers. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pip over any of these guys. How about other great all around players such as Magic, Bird, Barry, Big O, T Mac, Drexler, etc. I wouldn't take Pip over these guys either. Now on a GOAT list that factors accolades, longevity being great, numbers, etc. Pip may rank higher than some of these guys.

The question becomes would u take a Pip type over a DrJ-Baylor-King-Nique-Durant-Melo-Gervin type. U know scoring machine SG's or SF's who aren't great all around, but are so dominant scoring that it supercedes that. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pippen over any of these guys in most cases.

So is Pip underrated or overrated? I people are ranking Pip a top 25 player then HELL YA he's overrated. If u are talking more 30-40 then I'm fine with that. If anything, Pip redefined the SF, is the greatest perimeter defender of all time arguably, and has epic team accomplishments. But peak value wise, I would rather have a Durant, Dr.J, or Nique type over Pip.

[97 bulls]

In terms of technical brilliance on BOTH SIDES of the ball, Pippen is arguably the best SF of all time in that regard. But in terms of DOMINANCE on both sides of the ball, Bron takes the cake at SF. DOMINANCE is the number attribute that makes a player great. Pip was a great defender, passer, and rebounder at the SF.

The part that hurts Pip though is the scoring aspect. U got guys in that 6'6 to 6'8 bracket like MJ, Kobe, Hondo, Bron, etc. who have great all around games on both sides of the ball AND are dominant scorers. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pip over any of these guys. How about other great all around players such as Magic, Bird, Barry, Big O, T Mac, Drexler, etc. I wouldn't take Pip over these guys either. Now on a GOAT list that factors accolades, longevity being great, numbers, etc. Pip may rank higher than some of these guys.

The question becomes would u take a Pip type over a DrJ-Baylor-King-Nique-Durant-Melo-Gervin type. U know scoring machine SG's or SF's who aren't great all around, but are so dominant scoring that it supercedes that. Frankly, I wouldn't take Pippen over any of these guys in most cases.

So is Pip underrated or overrated? I people are ranking Pip a top 25 player then HELL YA he's overrated. If u are talking more 30-40 then I'm fine with that. If anything, Pip redefined the SF, is the greatest perimeter defender of all time arguably, and has epic team accomplishments. But peak value wise, I would rather have a Durant, Dr.J, or Nique type over Pip.
Why do you attempt to compare stats across eras? Case and point, Hondo avg 29 ppg in 71. The league avg for FG attempts per team was 8038. The year Pippen avg 22? The league avg was 6924. Thats more than a thousand more attempts per team. Can you even try to be objective?

[bizil]

Why do you attempt to compare stats across eras? Case and point, Hondo avg 29 ppg in 71. The league avg for FG attempts per team was 8038. The year Pippen avg 22? The league avg was 6924. Thats more than a thousand more attempts per team. Can you even try to be objective?

It comes down to the fact that Hondo is a better number one option than Pip was. Hondo in many ways was the precursor to Pip. Pip just added Dr.J type athletic ability and size to it. Thus the new age point forward model was born. Hill came later and now Bron is taking it to the ultimate heights. But the thing is Pip aint a true alpha dog kind of player. Hondo and Bron both excelled and dominated in that fashion better than Pip ever did.

With all of Pip's accomplishments why isn't he regarded as a top 10-15 player:

6 Time World Champ
2 time gold medalist
Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever
Redefined SF position
All Star Game MVP
7 Time All Star
7 Time All NBA
10 Time All Defensive

The reason why is because he's a Robin instead of Batman. That's not a bad thing and Pip's still great. But the bottom line is Pip WASN'T an alpha dog, and that's the most premium asset in all of bball. The point forward skills that Pip brings to the table isn't a premium asset at SF, it's a bonus. Other than PG, premium alpha dog scoring is the premium asset, and even most of the best PG's ever have the alpha dog gene more than Pip. U don't believe me look at Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, Payton, Nash, Tiny, and CP3. I would rather have ANY of those PG's willing my team to victory scoring and dishing than Pip. If Pip's DOESN'T win a ring or play with Mike is he a HOFer? Guys like Nique, Barkley, Stockton, and Ewing were clear HOFers WITHOUT a ring. Guys like Marques Johnson, Bernard King, etc. aren't in the HOF yet. King has more career points than Pippen and his peak value was higher. So Pippen WITHOUT a ring might not even be an HOFer and most CERTAINLY not 50 greatest.

[Whoah10115]

I don't agree that Pippen wasn't a Batman or #1 option. He may not have had an alpha personality, but that means little to me if you bring the impact. Durant does not have an alpha personality, at all. He has a passive-aggressive personality, but he's a scorer.


Scottie was a legit PG who could score 20+PPG and do it at a good percentage, and do it on a slow-paced team...even a slow-paced team, behind Michael. Those second 3peat Bulls were not running a lot, but they were so great that they scored more than everyone else. And he got his points.


Even in games where his shot wasn't falling, you saw Scottie attacking the basket and continuing to look for his shot, racking up high-scoring games. And he did everything. He did what you needed to win and did it while actually leading the team. He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

[97 bulls]

It comes down to the fact that Hondo is a better number one option than Pip was. Hondo in many ways was the precursor to Pip. Pip just added Dr.J type athletic ability and size to it. Thus the new age point forward model was born. Hill came later and now Bron is taking it to the ultimate heights. But the thing is Pip aint a true alpha dog kind of player. Hondo and Bron both excelled and dominated in that fashion better than Pip ever did.

With all of Pip's accomplishments why isn't he regarded as a top 10-15 player:

6 Time World Champ
2 time gold medalist
Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever
Redefined SF position
All Star Game MVP
7 Time All Star
7 Time All NBA
10 Time All Defensive

The reason why is because he's a Robin instead of Batman. That's not a bad thing and Pip's still great. But the bottom line is Pip WASN'T an alpha dog, and that's the most premium asset in all of bball. The point forward skills that Pip brings to the table isn't a premium asset at SF, it's a bonus. Other than PG, premium alpha dog scoring is the premium asset, and even most of the best PG's ever have the alpha dog gene more than Pip. U don't believe me look at Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, Payton, Nash, Tiny, and CP3. I would rather have ANY of those PG's willing my team to victory scoring and dishing than Pip. If Pip's DOESN'T win a ring or play with Mike is he a HOFer? Guys like Nique, Barkley, Stockton, and Ewing were clear HOFers WITHOUT a ring. Guys like Marques Johnson, Bernard King, etc. aren't in the HOF yet. King has more career points than Pippen and his peak value was higher. So Pippen WITHOUT a ring might not even be an HOFer and most CERTAINLY not 50 greatest.
The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Your bias shows in the way you rank players.

Either way you didnt respond to my post about Hondo. I wonder why

I'd also like to reiterate something ive said to you in the past as far as ranking players. Its dumb. Its strictly for fans. Show me a top 25 of an NBA player or coach. They dont do it. Ive seen alltime starting fives of coaches and players. Most are biased if not all. Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.

[bizil]

I don't agree that Pippen wasn't a Batman or #1 option. He may not have had an alpha personality, but that means little to me if you bring the impact. Durant does not have an alpha personality, at all. He has a passive-aggressive personality, but he's a scorer.


Scottie was a legit PG who could score 20+PPG and do it at a good percentage, and do it on a slow-paced team...even a slow-paced team, behind Michael. Those second 3peat Bulls were not running a lot, but they were so great that they scored more than everyone else. And he got his points.


Even in games where his shot wasn't falling, you saw Scottie attacking the basket and continuing to look for his shot, racking up high-scoring games. And he did everything. He did what you needed to win and did it while actually leading the team. He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent!

[97 bulls]

Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent!
Kind of superficial way of looking at it dont you think? Being a great scorer is no more the end all be to winning championships than saying that that woman in your avy would make a great wife cuz she has a huge ass. Its the whole premise of build around your franchise player. And Pippen was a franchise player. The most important facet of being a franchise player is having the ability to dominate games. Then you add players that can cater to that players strengths and weaknesses.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

You're out of your mind. lol @ "maybe" DRob. Shaq also shits on Pippen, and Malone and Barkley are both EXTREMELY arguable. Ewing > Pippen too, in '94 at least.

[bizil]

Kind of superficial way of looking at it dont you think? Being a great scorer is no more the end all be to winning championships than saying that that woman in your avy would make a great wife cuz she has a huge ass. Its the whole premise of build around your franchise player. And Pippen was a franchise player. The most important facet of being a franchise player is having the ability to dominate games. Then you add players that can cater to that players strengths and weaknesses.

For starters I never said Pip wasn't great. Pip's two greatest strengths was defense and versatility. So if u have a hole at PG, SG, or SF, Pip can fit the bill. Both on offense and at 6'7 or 6'8 on defense. Many big guards like Magic, Steve Smith, Reggie Theus, Penny, or Jalen Rose can run PG on offense. But how many can defend three or four positions very good to great too? That's the magic of Pip. A for real swiss army knife.

However, if i had to pick to build around a Nique, Durant, King, or Melo, I would rather build around them instead of Pip. Not saying Pip isn't great. Or in certain situations I wouldn't pick Pip for my team. But I can't LOGICALLY see how peak value wise Pippen is better than Durant. And on top of it Durant hasn't even peaked yet! LOL Once again, I can name SEVERAL 6'5 to 6'9 guys who were great all around players AND had more stage presence willing a team through scoring:

MJ
Kobe
Bron
Big O
Magic
Hondo
Bird
Drexler
Penny
G Hill
Barry
T Mac

The guys I listed are pretty much the PREMIER perimeter players of all time in terms of all around excellence and dominant scoring as a package in that midsized range. They were all epic all around players in addition to having more stage presence than Pip taking over scoring. And a lot of the players I mentioned played alongside legends just like Pip.

[Legends66NBA7]

The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Hondo played behind Bill Russell and later on Dave Cowens too, not because he wasn't good enough.


Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.

Nothing impressive about Karl Malone and his garbage analysis in that interview. Could see how biased he was ? Can you tell me why he docks a straight one on one comparison with Tim Duncan ?

Also, almost anybody can be a "competitor".

[bizil]

The problem is again your not looking at this objectively. Pippen is penalized because he played in Jordan shadow. Not because he wasnt good enough.

Your bias shows in the way you rank players.

Either way you didnt respond to my post about Hondo. I wonder why

I'd also like to reiterate something ive said to you in the past as far as ranking players. Its dumb. Its strictly for fans. Show me a top 25 of an NBA player or coach. They dont do it. Ive seen alltime starting fives of coaches and players. Most are biased if not all. Most impressive was Karl Malone putting Pippen in his starting five cuz he was a competitor.

On certain teams I would take Pip over guys who are cream of the crop scorers. And Pip was a beast and revolutionized bball. Anytime u are combining Hondo level all around skills with Dr. J level athletic ability and size u are special. It had NEVER been seen before at SF until Pippen did it. But all in all, I think Nique, Durant, King, or Melo are more DOMINANT players than Pip. So even though they might not be better all around, they are often times just as good or better rebounders that Pippen. And EASILY better scorers. So that has to count for something. Would u rather have Pip's defense and passing advantage over a guy like Durant or Nique's scoring and just as good or better rebounding? Pip WASN'T like MJ, Kobe, or Bron in terms of being a great scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender all in one. So give me a KD or Nique usually over a Pippen. And by the way, KD and Nique are finishing 1st runner up MVP wise to the two GOAT SF's in Bird and Bron.

[97 bulls]

Hondo played behind Bill Russell and later on Dave Cowens too, not because he wasn't good enough.



Nothing impressive about Karl Malone and his garbage analysis in that interview. Could see how biased he was ? Can you tell me why he docks a straight one on one comparison with Tim Duncan ?

Also, almost anybody can be a "competitor".
Hondo should be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than him. I was refering to their scoring. The avg NBA game was much more uptempo in Hondos time as opposed to Pippens. And players played more minutes. Thats what I mean by being objective. You cant just look at Hondos and Pippens stats offensively and compare them at face value. But thats what hes doing. Bizil has an agenda. Notice hiw he wont respond
to my statement about why Hondo scored so many points? Some of the players he states hed choose over Pippen to win championships, NEVER EVEN WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. WTF? Im confident hed rather be the guy that scores thirty ppg and loses as opposed to yhe 20 ppg player who comes away with a win


Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?

[bizil]

Hondo should be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than him. I was refering to their scoring. The avg NBA game was much more uptempo in Hondos time as opposed to Pippens. And players played more minutes. Thats what I mean by being objective. You cant just look at Hondos and Pippens stats offensively and compare them at face value. But thats what hes doing. Bizil has an agenda. Notice hiw he wont respond
to my statement about why Hondo scored so many points? Some of the players he states hed choose over Pippen to win championships, NEVER EVEN WON A CHAMPIONSHIP. WTF? Im confident hed rather be the guy that scores thirty ppg and loses as opposed to yhe 20 ppg player who comes away with a win


Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?

I have no agenda against Pip at all. I give Pip mad props UNTIL i see people saying Pip is a top 20-25 player of all time. Or that Pip peak value wise Pip was a top 3 SF. At that point I gotta state my opinion.

As far as Hondo and how many points he scored, I know one thing. And that's Hondo had more ALPHA DOG gene than Pip had. No agenda, just facts! I just don't see Pip as a top 20-25 player. And I don't like an icon like Nique getting shitted on when Pip got to play with the GOAT. Sure u may prefer Pip's all around game to Nique's. But for me, I think Nique's scoring acumen and rebounding trumps Pip's passing and defense advantage in many cases.

[97 bulls]

On certain teams I would take Pip over guys who are cream of the crop scorers. And Pip was a beast and revolutionized bball. Anytime u are combining Hondo level all around skills with Dr. J level athletic ability and size u are special. It had NEVER been seen before at SF until Pippen did it. But all in all, I think Nique, Durant, King, or Melo are more DOMINANT players than Pip. So even though they might not be better all around, they are often times just as good or better rebounders that Pippen. And EASILY better scorers. So that has to count for something. Would u rather have Pip's defense and passing advantage over a guy like Durant or Nique's scoring and just as good or better rebounding? Pip WASN'T like MJ, Kobe, or Bron in terms of being a great scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender all in one. So give me a KD or Nique usually over a Pippen. And by the way, KD and Nique are finishing 1st runner up MVP wise to the two GOAT SF's in Bird and Bron.
Theres probably hundreds of wing player that I feel are better defensively than Bryant (whose overrated). Hes a very good defender, just like Pippen was a very good scorer. You seem to try to make it seem as if Pippens offense was a weakness. Again failing to be objective. If Pippens prime fell in tne 80s, theres no doubt he avg 24-25 ppg. With a high of 27-28. BECAUSE HE WOULDVE HAD MORE FGAs. For some reason that just cant sink in for you.

[97 bulls]

I have no agenda against Pip at all. I give Pip mad props UNTIL i see people saying Pip is a top 20-25 player of all time. Or that Pip peak value wise Pip was a top 3 SF. At that point I gotta state my opinion.

As far as Hondo and how many points he scored, I know one thing. And that's Hondo had more ALPHA DOG gene than Pip had. No agenda, just facts!
Math are facts bro. Try applying it. Theres no way Hondo is avg 29 ppg in 90s NBA. He wouldn't be playing 45 min, and he would get as many attempts.

[bizil]

Math are facts bro. Try applying it. Theres no way Hondo is avg 29 ppg in 90s NBA. He wouldn't be playing 45 min, and he would get as many attempts.


Even if you take the eras for what they were, Hondo was MORE FEARED in his era than Pip was in his scoring wise. I'm willing to bet cash on that and I'm not a gambling man. That's a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt. And at the same time, if Hondo grew up in the era Pip played in he would enjoy the advantages that the future offers. And let's face it, perimeter players like Big O, Hondo, Barry, and Baylor were ahead of their time in what they brought to the table anyway. Even moreso than many guys today, in the 2000s, 90s or 80s. The things they were showing in the 60's and 70's were big time precursors for things a lot later down the line for midsized players.

[Legends66NBA7]

Whats garbage about his opinion? He feels having Pippen on his team would give him the best chance of winning. He could be sour grapes since Pippen and the Bulls denied him of.winning two championships. And what does his view on Tim Duncan have to do with anything?

When you talked about Malone wanting Pippen on his team, I thought you had watched the interview he had on the Dan Patrick Show, where he stated about he was the best PF of all-time... along with the Pippen comment.

The Duncan comment stems from the fact, that if you feel is opinion is a legit about Pippen, it doesn't feel like he's really telling the truth about his counterparts at the PF position, where he tries to dodge an one on one comparison with Duncan (calling him a center)... so it doesn't feel like he was being all that truthful about Pippen, making his opinion garbage or invalid for a better word, I guess.


I agree with your Hondo assessment.

[DatAsh]

He literally was the 1st option for less than 2 full years. No one has any basis to claim he wasn't a capable or winning 1st option, based on that. Other than Hakeem and MAYBE David Robinson, there wasn't a better player in that two year span. Not Charles, not Karl, not Patrick, not Shaq.

Maybe David Robinson? Robinson was putting up 30/11/5 on 51% while also playing better defense than Pippen. David Robinson was a beast in that two year span.

[97 bulls]

Maybe David Robinson? Robinson was putting up 30/11/5 on 51% while also playing better defense than Pippen. David Robinson was a beast in that two year span.
Robinson was a beast. But Id definately argue their contributions to their teams. The Bulls had to run their offense in order to get quality shots. Pippen ran their offense. I feel that more than makes up the difference in scoring

[DatAsh]

Robinson was a beast. But Id definately argue their contributions to their teams. The Bulls had to run their offense in order to get quality shots. Pippen ran their offense. I feel that more than makes up the difference in scoring

That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion. The Bulls would struggle similarly to how the Cavs struggled without Lebron.

Replacing Pippen with a serviceable playmaker would hurt the Bulls less than replacing the Spurs with a serviceable center. Robinson and Shaq were better than Pippen over that stretch.

Robinson was putting 30/11/5 on 50% while playing some of the best defense the league has ever seen(for any position).

Shaq was putting up 30/12/2 on 60%.

Pippen was a better defender than Shaq, and right up there behind Robinson, but those guys had a huge edge offensively and on the boards than Pippen's game just doesn't make up for.

[kshutts1]

That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion.

I don't understand the distinction you are making, and how value to team is different than value. Could you please elaborate?

[97 bulls]

Even if you take the eras for what they were, Hondo was MORE FEARED in his era than Pip was in his scoring wise. I'm willing to bet cash on that and I'm not a gambling man. That's a fact beyond a shadow of a doubt. And at the same time, if Hondo grew up in the era Pip played in he would enjoy the advantages that the future offers. And let's face it, perimeter players like Big O, Hondo, Barry, and Baylor were ahead of their time in what they brought to the table anyway. Even moreso than many guys today, in the 2000s, 90s or 80s. The things they were showing in the 60's and 70's were big time precursors for things a lot later down the line for midsized players.
Id have to disagree Biz. Hondo played half of his career during the ABA. And the ABA took a fair amount of great players. Erving? Hawkins? Gilmore? Barry? Issel? Haywood? All great players. And even with those players playing in another league, the highest Havlicek ever got in MVP voting was fourth. Now where would Pippen had ranked if half of the top 15 players played in another league?

[bizil]

Some of u Pip fans are so sensitive! Many of us NEVER said Pip couldn't be the best player on a title team. But at the same time Pip simply wasn't as dominant taking a game by the throat scoring the rock as many other legendary SF's or swingmen. If you look at the most people's top 10-15 GOAT SF's, Pip is the only one NOT LEGENDARY for dominant scoring:

Bird
Bron
Hondo
Dr. J
Barry
Baylor
Pippen
Nique
Pierce
English
Dantley
King
Melo (soon to be on the list somewhere)
Durant (soon to be on the list somewhere)

There are FACTS not opinions. Pip CAN lead a team to an NBA title, but I feel it would have to be a team like the early 2000s Pistons or the late 90's-2000s Blazer teams that an out of prime Pip was on. Pippen's versatility while being a very good scorer could get the job done. It's just that in most cases give me a Durant or Bernard King over a Pippen. It's like saying Sidney Moncrief is a better player than George Gervin because Moncrief was a better all around player. Which ain't true and MOST people know Gervin was a better player than Moncrief because Iceman was MORE DOMINANT! At one time, Iceman was regarded as the 2nd GOAT SG behind West. And that's over many SG's who were better "all around players".

[KOBE143]

very underrated. some can argue he was the most important player during 6 championship runs but he will never get the credit.
This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..

[bizil]

Id have to disagree Biz. Hondo played half of his career during the ABA. And the ABA took a fair amount of great players. Erving? Hawkins? Gilmore? Barry? Issel? Haywood? All great players. And even with those players playing in another league, the highest Havlicek ever got in MVP voting was fourth. Now where would Pippen had ranked if half of the top 15 players played in another league?

MVP votes can be tricky at times. Shaq and Kobe ONLY have 1 MVP. Steve Nash has 2. Is Nash a better player than Shaq or Kobe, HELL NO! MVP votes, while a great honor, is an opinion. And u could ask most NBA observers and they would tell u Hondo was more feared scoring wise in his era than Pippen was in his. Hell Bron ALREADY has more career points than Pippen! LOL

[97 bulls]

That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion. The Bulls would struggle similarly to how the Cavs struggled without Lebron.

Replacing Pippen with a serviceable playmaker would hurt the Bulls less than replacing the Spurs with a serviceable center. Robinson and Shaq were better than Pippen over that stretch.

Robinson was putting 30/11/5 on 50% while playing some of the best defense the league has ever seen(for any position).

Shaq was putting up 30/12/2 on 60%.

Pippen was a better defender than Shaq, and right up there behind Robinson, but those guys had a huge edge offensively and on the boards than Pippen's game just doesn't make up for.
They were centers whose job was to score, rebound, and defend the paint. Pippens job was score, rebound help defend the paint, run the offense, full court press, trap. He had far more responsibilities than they did. And lets not forget Pippen did put up 22/9/6 on 49% shooting as a SF. Youre making it sound as if he only avg 4-5 boards.

[97 bulls]

This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..
Please dont come in here with this. Jordans role with the Bulls was huge. And most important. I only feel it can be ARGUED that Pippens role was on Jordans level.

[97 bulls]

MVP votes can be tricky at times. Shaq and Kobe ONLY have 1 MVP. Steve Nash has 2. Is Nash a better player than Shaq or Kobe, HELL NO! MVP votes, while a great honor, is an opinion. And u could ask most NBA observers and they would tell u Hondo was more feared scoring wise in his era than Pippen was in his. Hell Bron ALREADY has more career points than Pippen! LOL
Like I stated. At face value one could say Hondo was more feared. But facts are facts. Allow Pippen to play 45 min and give him six extra shot attempts per game and hed be knocking on the 30 ppg door too.


I see your point about MVPs. But again he couldnt win an MVP with a good portion of the top players playing in the ABA.

[bizil]

This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..

U can't just say MJ is a SYSTEM PLAYER! MJ may play BETTER within a system than Kobe, but MJ is the GOAT! NO GOAT is merely a system player. That means u are limited and can only thrive in certain situations individually. Jordan did more creating than Kobe merely by the fact Kobe had Shaq. MJ had to do more for his teams to win than Kobe did in his run with Shaq.

MJ and Dominique are two totally different players. The only thing they have in common is that they are two freak athlete scoring machines. But MJ was also as complete a guard in the all around sense who has ever lived. MJ also had arguably the most complete scoring skillset of all time. I love Nique and he's my favorite player of all time. But before Pip came of age, MJ was averaging 30 pts, 8boards, and 8 assists along with shutdown D on PG, SG, and SF. So MJ was doing Pip duties ALONG with dominating scoring. MJ made life MORE EASIER for Pip than the other way around. Even though Pip made life EASIER for MJ as well. And MJ is the main reason the Bulls dominated. Phil and Scottie were important, but MJ was the MAN!


I frankly think Kobe at his peak is the 2nd best player of all time at least perimeter wise. And GOAT wise, u could say Kobe is in the top five, even though I would go MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic. So right now I have Kobe number six GOAT wise with a great case to be in the top five. and when it's all said and done, who knows where Kobe will rank.

[Money 23]

'97 bulls, you're my guy ... but this Pippen stuff with you is ridiculous. Do you see what your more articulated thoughts, even when you're dead wrong encourage?


This is true..

Most Important for The Bulls Championship (In order)

1. Pippen
2. PJackson
3. Jordan

Jordan was the best player in those championship but he's not the most important, Pippen and coach Phil were more important.. Jordan cant win without those guys.. He always relied on coach Phil and the triangle offense to excel.. Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.. Jordan was a system player, product of the triangle offense use by PJackson and company.. This is one of the few things that separate Mike from Kobe.. Unlike Jordan Kobe was not a system player and doesnt rely on one system.. Actually Kobe creates the system for his team to win..

Jordan = system product (Triangle Offense)
Kobe = system creator (Kobe System)

I still wonder why some people here dont consider Kobe as a GOAT candidate when theres already a lot of evidence that will proves Kobe at worst is a top 5 player of all time.. Some people here will rather act like an idiot than accept those facts.. In short Kobe haters..
:biggums:

[KOBE143]

U can't just say MJ is a SYSTEM PLAYER! MJ may play BETTER within a system than Kobe, but MJ is the GOAT! NO GOAT is merely a system player. That means u are limited and can only thrive in certain situations individually. Jordan did more creating than Kobe merely by the fact Kobe had Shaq. MJ had to do more for his teams to win than Kobe did in his run with Shaq.

MJ and Dominique are two totally different players. The only thing they have in common is that they are two freak athlete scoring machines. But MJ was also as complete a guard in the all around sense who has ever lived. MJ also had arguably the most complete scoring skillset of all time. I love Nique and he's my favorite player of all time. But before Pip came of age, MJ was averaging 30 pts, 8boards, and 8 assists along with shutdown D on PG, SG, and SF. So MJ was doing Pip duties ALONG with dominating scoring. MJ made life MORE EASIER for Pip than the other way around. Even though Pip made life EASIER for MJ as well. And MJ is the main reason the Bulls dominated. Phil and Scottie were important, but MJ was the MAN!


I frankly think Kobe at his peak is the 2nd best player of all time at least perimeter wise. And GOAT wise, u could say Kobe is in the top five, even though I would go MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Magic. So right now I have Kobe number six GOAT wise with a great case to be in the top five. and when it's all said and done, who knows where Kobe will rank.

You seems like a knowledgeable and respectable poster.. I agree with some of your post.. I respect your opinion.. :cheers:

[kshutts1]

Some of u Pip fans are so sensitive! Many of us NEVER said Pip couldn't be the best player on a title team. But at the same time Pip simply wasn't as dominant taking a game by the throat scoring the rock as many other legendary SF's or swingmen. If you look at the most people's top 10-15 GOAT SF's, Pip is the only one NOT LEGENDARY for dominant scoring:

Bird
Bron
Hondo
Dr. J
Barry
Baylor
Pippen
Nique
Pierce
English
Dantley
King
Melo (soon to be on the list somewhere)
Durant (soon to be on the list somewhere)

There are FACTS not opinions. Pip CAN lead a team to an NBA title, but I feel it would have to be a team like the early 2000s Pistons or the late 90's-2000s Blazer teams that an out of prime Pip was on. Pippen's versatility while being a very good scorer could get the job done. It's just that in most cases give me a Durant or Bernard King over a Pippen. It's like saying Sidney Moncrief is a better player than George Gervin because Moncrief was a better all around player. Which ain't true and MOST people know Gervin was a better player than Moncrief because Iceman was MORE DOMINANT! At one time, Iceman was regarded as the 2nd GOAT SG behind West. And that's over many SG's who were better "all around players".

This is why I don't like the effect media, and ESPN, have had on our views of sports.

Scoring can be dominant, but defense can not be. That's how I interpreted the bolded statement.

Consider this (and note: I am NOT saying Durant is better Pip, NOR am I saying Pip is better than Durant):

Durant's ppg in his best season (so far) is roughly 30-31ppg.
Pippen's best: around 25ppg (difference of 5-6ppg)

Now consider that Pippen is arguably the second best defender OF ALL TIME, while Durant is not even the second best defender on his team,... and you mean to tell me that Pippen's exemplary can't make up a 5-6ppg difference in terms of dominance? Give me a break.

Second note: IF my interpretation was incorrect, then I apologize for assuming I knew what you meant.

[Poetry]

Without those, people would remember him as a Dominique type of player.

If he hadn't won, he would have been remembered in much the same way that we remember Wilt Chamberlain.

But because he won, he's on par with both Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell at the same time. He's the best individual player of all time and the most indispensable teammate of all time.

In the late eighties, people wondered when the transition would occur.

Individually, he was already acknowledged as a legend in the making at that point, and with a real team by his side, he conquered both sides of the equation and became the GOAT.

He had a mixture of individual accolades, efficiency, productivity and team success that put him on a plane that only 4 or 5 other players can claim.

And of those 4 or 5, he's at the top.

[The Iron Fist]

Jordan has no rings without Pippen. Pippen was the best SF in his day.

[rosonviyavong]

Overrated to an extent, especially when people claim he's better than Jordan

[Poetry]

Jordan has no rings without Pippen.

No one ever won alone. It's a team sport.

[Smoke117]

Some of u Pip fans are so sensitive! Many of us NEVER said Pip couldn't be the best player on a title team. But at the same time Pip simply wasn't as dominant taking a game by the throat scoring the rock as many other legendary SF's or swingmen. If you look at the most people's top 10-15 GOAT SF's, Pip is the only one NOT LEGENDARY for dominant scoring:

Bird
Bron
Hondo
Dr. J
Barry
Baylor
Pippen
Nique
Pierce
English
Dantley
King
Melo (soon to be on the list somewhere)
Durant (soon to be on the list somewhere)

There are FACTS not opinions. Pip CAN lead a team to an NBA title, but I feel it would have to be a team like the early 2000s Pistons or the late 90's-2000s Blazer teams that an out of prime Pip was on. Pippen's versatility while being a very good scorer could get the job done. It's just that in most cases give me a Durant or Bernard King over a Pippen. It's like saying Sidney Moncrief is a better player than George Gervin because Moncrief was a better all around player. Which ain't true and MOST people know Gervin was a better player than Moncrief because Iceman was MORE DOMINANT! At one time, Iceman was regarded as the 2nd GOAT SG behind West. And that's over many SG's who were better "all around players".

The problem with these arguments is that we don't really know how good Pippen could have been scoring wise because he was never in a system that was geared to his strengths as a scorer. He's probably one of the five greatest open court players ever, but the triangle offense was a half court offense. It's why I've said that if put him on those Blazer teams with Drexler he would have scored a lot more and his assist would have been much higher as really, he's a natural PG like whoah said.

Still though what he did in 94 and 95 is impressive because he was good enough to be an efficient first option in an offense that wasn't geared to his game as a scorer at all. That is why his scoring didn't really go up very high in 94 and 95 even though Jordan was gone. It was more the fact that he played in the triangle offense then anything else as to why he didn't score more points. The difference between him and those list of sf's is they played in offensive systems that were geared to their strengths as scorers and getting them in their sweet spots.

He had an unselfish nature though and was a natural PG...the only real natural PG of that size since Magic. If he was given to keys to dominant the ball as a true PG his great play making and natural inclination to get others involved would have made his assist sky rocket passed what they were in his his career in the triangle offense.

[SpecialQue]

Underrated by Jordan stans.
Overrated by Jordan haters.

[guy]

That depends. You're probably right in saying that removing Pippen would hurt Chicago more than removing Robinson would from San Antonio, but that's not a good gauge of who's actually more valuable; it's more-so a gauge of who's more valuable to their team, which isn't quite as meaningful in my opinion. The Bulls would struggle similarly to how the Cavs struggled without Lebron.

Huh? I agree with what you're saying about value but removing Robinson definitely would've hurt the Spurs more then removing Pippen. He was literally the Minnesota KG of that era. The Robinson pre-Duncan Spurs were not the deep well disciplined team they were after Duncan got there.

[guy]

The problem with these arguments is that we don't really know how good Pippen could have been scoring wise because he was never in a system that was geared to his strengths as a scorer. He's probably one of the five greatest open court players ever, but the triangle offense was a half court offense. It's why I've said that if put him on those Blazer teams with Drexler he would have scored a lot more and his assist would have been much higher as really, he's a natural PG like whoah said.

He had an unselfish nature though and was a natural PG...the only real natural PG of that size since Magic. If he was given to keys to dominant the ball as a true PG his great play making and natural inclination to get others involved would have made his assist sky rocket passed what they were in his his career in the triangle offense.

You don't really need to see players in a certain system to assess how great of a scorer or passer they were. There stats might be different, but its not hard to assess.

Pippen's PG abilities are so grossly overrated around here. People make it seem like he would be Chris Paul or Steve Nash or something along those lines.

[gengiskhan]

Eh, the Bulls aren't even in the Finals without Pippen's play. With the Bulls down 0-2 in the ECF and the Knicks looking for the knockout punch in Game 3 Jordan didn't exactly have a stellar shooting game but his team picked it up...Pippen in particular. Same goes for the closeout Game 6 against the Knicks where Jordan couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while Pippen was hitting the daggers down the stretch to send the Knicks home. That's why you have two stars on the team. One to pick up the slack when the other is struggling.

Facts about 1993 ECF btw Knicks vs Bulls:

Fact # 1: severely sprain right wrist (shooting hand) of GOAT had 54 pts in leveling the series 2-2.

Fact # 2: still sprain right wrist (shooting hand) of GOAT had 30 pts triple double (29 pts to be exact), his career's most imp triple double that gave bulls 3-2 lead ON THE ROAD !!

Funny thing about "dumb revisionists" is If Pippen performs even slightly better than his usual "above average" self, he is considered the one who won the series.

But

Despite MJ severely spraining his RIGHT shooting hand Wrist in previous CAVS series in ECSF, he is expected to SHOOT like GOAT & his 54 pts performance, his career's best TRIPLE DOUBLE are all overlooked.

Just to show how much these 'retarded revisionist' want Pippen to NOT look like MJ's eternal sidekick & look more like ALL-TIME GREAT

[Whoah10115]

Maybe David Robinson? Robinson was putting up 30/11/5 on 51% while also playing better defense than Pippen. David Robinson was a beast in that two year span.


I think Pippen had a great claim to the MVP and DPOTY in 1994. I think he was the DPOTY in 1995. He was a better player, overall, in 1994. And Robinson was a better overall player in 1995 than he was in 1994. But I'd take Pippen's 93/94 season ahead of any of those 4 seasons. In the playoffs, Robinson didn't do anything to separate himself. He was incredible, and I even lean towards him being the better of the two over that span, but I'm not sure...and Robinson was one of my absolute favorite players of all-time.

Also, Pippen had a better defensive season than Robinson did, in either of those seasons.

[Whoah10115]

Bottom line is Durant IS AN ALPHA DOG SCORER! He's also a team player who plays within the flow of the game too! U can be both. But KD's assassin mentality and epic scoring skills DICTATES he's an alpha dog scorer clearly! He frankly has a a GREAT CHANCE to be the premier alpha dog scoring machine the SF HAS EVER SEEN! And that's saying a lot when u got Bird, Nique, King, Dr. J, Barry, English, Dantley, and Baylor in that realm too.

U can want it bad, be a very skilled player, and be a 20 PPG. That DOESN'T mean u are an alpha dog scorer. A guy like Durant or Melo is in another galaxy on LIGHT SPEED HAN SOLO style than Pippen in that realm. And a point forward kind of guy like Bron has the foot on the gas EVERY SEASON to be a threat for a scoring title putting up 27-30 a night. So even point forwards who would prefer to pass first have more alpha dog gene than Pip EVER HAD! These are FACTS NOT OPINIONS! If Pip was perceived as an alpha dog, then he would rate in the top 15-20 GOAT. He was too revolutionary and accomplished for that not too happen. U give Barkley six rings and he's the GOAT PF and in the top 10 GOAT!!! A guy like Barkley is simply on another level or two than Pippen. Pip came of age when the SF's like Bird, Nique, King, English, Dantley, Aguirre, etc. were out of the league or tailend prime. Pip came of age when the SF spot wasn't the premier position depth wise in the L. When Bird was at his peak, the SF spot was the deepest position in the L in terms of cream of the crop talent!



I don't really agree. Pippen was a scorer, even if it wasn't his first instinct. 22PPG is legit scoring, and he wasn't being fed those points or running in an offense where he was the beneficiary. He's been at around that average before and, outside of those two years, he did all of this behind the greatest scorer of all-time, without any PG but himself.