The NBA's top 4 scorers with 0:24 or less at the end of the game

[RoboticWang]

Just because some can't read CAREER game-tying and go-ahead shot attempts with under
0:24 in 4th qtr/ot.


http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg

Discuss.

lol at Kobe. soooooooooooo 'Clutch'



















http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg

*Kobe now 7/29 (24%) after last year's playoffs*

[TheMarkMadsen]

All those shots taken with 25 or 26 seconds left were MEANINGLESS

[Just2McFly]

Melo:47%

How is that better than Melo's FG PCT for the year?:oldlol:

Very impressive, and odd at the same time.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Melo:47%

How is that better than Melo's FG PCT for the year?:oldlol:

Very impressive, and odd at the same time.

Most are desperation shots, just like the ones he made in the two games against the Bulls. Interestingly, he was able to hit these shots, though they would not change the fact that Knicks ended up losing the game. It did make the scoreboard look considerably nicer for the Knicks, since they were able to cut the deficit from 15-20pts blowout into single degits, thus making it look like a tough loss.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Where's Kyrie? He's probably better than Kobe and LeBron and apparently KD. That's the most surprising thing on there KD is usually cold blooded.

Edit: Didn't see it was top 4 scorers

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

But throw in Durant's gift free throws from the refs in the final 23 and his TS% is higher.

[coin24]

Great example of how these stats can be exagerrated and used to promote idiotic agendas:facepalm :facepalm

[chips93]

can we get a sample size for this b*tch?

[RoboticWang]

can we get a sample size for this b*tch?
CAREER. It's in the picture..

[red1]

Great example of how these stats can be exagerrated and used to promote idiotic agendas:facepalm :facepalm
not surprised that lebron is more clutch than kobe

[MMM]

Great example of how these stats can be exagerrated and used to promote idiotic agendas:facepalm :facepalm

The Stat is not exaggerated it is actually giving you information about certain parameters, whether or not that information is meaningful in complete context is another thing.

[bagelred]

Most are desperation shots, just like the ones he made in the two games against the Bulls. Interestingly, he was able to hit these shots, though they would not change the fact that Knicks ended up losing the game. It did make the scoreboard look considerably nicer for the Knicks, since they were able to cut the deficit from 15-20pts blowout into single degits, thus making it look like a tough loss.

What the f-ck are you talking about?

[Kiddlovesnets]

What the f-ck are you talking about?

Watch the two Knicks vs Bulls games, and you will see what I mean.

[bagelred]

Watch the two Knicks vs Bulls games, and you will see what I mean.

The stat is very specific. :24 seconds or less. Shots to tie or take the lead.


I repeat, wtf are you talking about? How are those Bulls games even relevant?

[BlueCrayon]

Most are desperation shots, just like the ones he made in the two games against the Bulls. Interestingly, he was able to hit these shots, though they would not change the fact that Knicks ended up losing the game. It did make the scoreboard look considerably nicer for the Knicks, since they were able to cut the deficit from 15-20pts blowout into single degits, thus making it look like a tough loss.

:biggums: :roll:

[28renyoy]

This is unfair to Durant because of his first 4 seasons. The last 2 seasons he's at 42.3%

Hell he made 4 game winners in the playoffs last year alone

[Kiddlovesnets]

The stat is very specific. :24 seconds or less. Shots to tie or take the lead.


I repeat, wtf are you talking about? How are those Bulls games even relevant?

Oh I see, sorry about that. I thought it was referring to shots in general.

[RoboticWang]

This is unfair to Durant because of his first 4 seasons. The last 2 seasons he's at 42.3%

Hell he made 4 game winners in the playoffs last year alone
How is it unfair showing how clutch they have been for their whole career?

side note: Durant's and Rose's clutch shots are my favorite.

[ClutchOver9000]

This is unfair to Durant because of his first 4 seasons. The last 2 seasons he's at 42.3%

Hell he made 4 game winners in the playoffs last year alone

:lol you cant stand to see anything where Durant is not on top can't you?

[cotdt]

You have to take into account free throws, too.

[tmacattack33]

Nothing too surprising here if you watch the games and have paying attention to this type of stuff.

Melo's is too good though. I'd like to see all of his shots and all of his possessions...Did he turn the ball over a bunch of times? That would be worse than a missed shot.

Did he shoot a lot of the shots with 15 seconds left, while Kobe,Durant, and Lebron had a bunch of possessions where their team inbounded the ball with only like 4 seconds left? Because those situations are ridiculously tough to convert...all u can do really is take one dribble or two before shooting.

[ClutchOver9000]

Just because some can't read CAREER game-tying and go-ahead shot attempts with under
0:24 in 4th qtr/ot.


http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg

Discuss.

lol at Kobe. soooooooooooo 'Clutch'

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Bxv_jA-fPPM/Tbj3so9hYuI/AAAAAAAALhg/Z8TMWHX-IFo/s400/carmelodatazz-gif-1.png

[RoboticWang]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Bxv_jA-fPPM/Tbj3so9hYuI/AAAAAAAALhg/Z8TMWHX-IFo/s400/carmelodatazz-gif-1.png
Clutch Over 9000.

[ClutchOver9000]

^^^ :applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

not surprised that lebron is more clutch than kobe
http://i.imgur.com/bq8s8.png

http://i.imgur.com/YhUK8.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol at Kobe. soooooooooooo 'Clutch'

Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.
lol at Bird. soooooooooo 'Clutch'
This shit has more weight than the last 24 seconds :cheers:

[RoboticWang]

Oh my.. who would've guessed that butthurt Kobe stans would show up in this thread as well.. :rolleyes:

[no pun intended]

Oh my.. who would've guessed that butthurt Kobe stans would show up in this thread as well.. :rolleyes:
Because you instigated it? :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

limited sample size

[LongLiveTheKing]

limited sample size
It's their entire career how is that limited?

[DonDadda59]

http://i.imgur.com/bq8s8.png

http://i.imgur.com/YhUK8.jpg

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg

*Kobe now 7/29 (24%) after last year's playoffs*

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg

*Kobe now 7/29 (24%) after last year's playoffs*
Jordan 6
Kobe 5
Lebron 1*

*lockout

[DonDadda59]

Jordan 6
Kobe 5
Lebron 1*

*lockout

That's nice. But what does it have to do with the topic at hand? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

1 of those GW's was a travel vs the Wizards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtf7kQZC6gw

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's nice. But what does it have to do with the topic at hand? :confusedshrug:
You know exactly what it has to do with the topic. Lebron's been in 3 finals, 2 of them he was not good in the 4th quarters in which many of the games were close.

[DonDadda59]

You know exactly what it has to do with the topic. Lebron's been in 3 finals, 2 of them he was not good in the 4th quarters in which many of the games were close.

Then he was just doing his best Kobe impersonation :oldlol:

Bean has had plenty of shitty finals performances, and he's been abysmal in the clutch in the past few seasons. How could anyone forget THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5yHsipowNw)?

I don't think I've ever seen a player single-handedly blow a lead in a significant game like that. The #s don't lie- as a 'clutch' player, Kobe is grossly overrated.

[andgar923]

You know exactly what it has to do with the topic. Lebron's been in 3 finals, 2 of them he was not good in the 4th quarters in which many of the games were close.

Put Kobe in his shoes and he sucks just as badly if not more.

[Heavincent]

Then he was just doing his best Kobe impersonation :oldlol:

Bean has had plenty of shitty finals performances, and he's been abysmal in the clutch in the past few seasons. How could anyone forget THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5yHsipowNw)?

I don't think I've ever seen a player single-handedly blow a lead in a significant game like that. The #s don't lie- as a 'clutch' player, Kobe is grossly overrated.

Why do you put so much effort into this?

Kind of creepy. What are you trying to prove exactly? Are you still in denial of Kobe being a top 10 player of all time?

:oldlol:

[red1]

Why do you put so much effort into this?

Kind of creepy. What are you trying to prove exactly? Are you still in denial of Kobe being a top 10 player of all time?

:oldlol:
dondadda is the man. easily one of the best posters on the nba board

[el gringos]

Nothing too surprising here if you watch the games and have paying attention to this type of stuff.

Melo's is too good though. I'd like to see all of his shots and all of his possessions...Did he turn the ball over a bunch of times? That would be worse than a missed shot.

Did he shoot a lot of the shots with 15 seconds left, while Kobe,Durant, and Lebron had a bunch of possessions where their team inbounded the ball with only like 4 seconds left? Because those situations are ridiculously tough to convert...all u can do really is take one dribble or two before shooting.
The kid that's in love with Durants comment about that stat not being fair to Durant was hilarious and so is yours. If it were just the last 5 seconds Carmelo's % is prob even higher. Really the game winning shots is just about the only thing Carmelo has on those other top guys. The percentage has gone down the last few years but on game winning shots during his Denver days it was ridiculous

[FreezingTsmoove]

Just because some can't read CAREER game-tying and go-ahead shot attempts with under
0:24 in 4th qtr/ot.


http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg

Discuss.

lol at Kobe. soooooooooooo 'Clutch'


I could be missing something here but didn't Kobe hit a buzzer beater on Prince last year which means he's 1-8? And that game winner vs the raptors?







Or am I missing something


EDIT: Just saw postseason

[DonDadda59]

Why do you put so much effort into this?

Kind of creepy. What are you trying to prove exactly? Are you still in denial of Kobe being a top 10 player of all time?

:oldlol:

It doesn't take much effort at all, really :confusedshrug:

And I don't have to prove anything, just helping to clear up some common misconceptions and misguided hyperbole that's routinely thrown around. The truth>bullshit. That's a motto to live by :pimp:

[Heavincent]

It doesn't take much effort at all, really :confusedshrug:

And I don't have to prove anything, just helping to clear up some common misconceptions and misguided hyperbole that's routinely thrown around. The truth>bullshit. That's a motto to live by :pimp:

Whatever you say.

[DonDadda59]

The kid that's in love with Durants comment about that stat not being fair to Durant was hilarious and so is yours. If it were just the last 5 seconds Carmelo's % is prob even higher. Really the game winning shots is just about the only thing Carmelo has on those other top guys. The percentage has gone down the last few years but on game winning shots during his Denver days it was ridiculous

Yeah, people just go off of reputation (even if it's not earned). The facts say that Carmelo is a beast in clutch situations (regular season at least).


Anyone who saw the Knicks overtime win against Chicago on Sunday afternoon can tell you that. Anthony hit a game-tying three-pointer with 11 seconds to go in regulation and a game-winning 3-pointer with 8 seconds left in overtime to beat the Bulls.

It was Anthony's signature moment as a Knick; he ranked the shots as one of the top moments in a career full of clutch buckets.

And he's had more than his fair share.

Among players that have taken at least 20 field goal attempts in game-tying or game-winning situations in the last 15 seconds of the 4th quarter or overtime in the past 10 years, Anthony ranks first in field-goal percentage (46.2), according to the Elias Sports Bureau. He has made 24 of 52.

His 24 field goals are second to Kobe Bryant's 26. But Bryant is shooting 30.2 percent in 'clutch' situations (26-86).

Need more evidence that Anthony is clutch?

He's shooting 46.7 percent on game-tying or go-ahead shots in the final 24 seconds of regulation or overtime. The only player with a higher career shooting percentage in such situations over the past 16 seasons? Shawn Marion, who has shot 47.4 percent in crunch time.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/16302/carmelo-clutch


Looks like he's the #1 guy since his 24 sec % is at 47.4 now.

Melo Game Winners (mostly from Den days) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLl0cyvJWCY)

Game Winners as a Knick (Not including this season) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdiefeNfg1s)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Then he was just doing his best Kobe impersonation :oldlol:

Bean has had plenty of shitty finals performances, and he's been abysmal in the clutch in the past few seasons. How could anyone forget THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5yHsipowNw)?

I don't think I've ever seen a player single-handedly blow a lead in a significant game like that. The #s don't lie- as a 'clutch' player, Kobe is grossly overrated.
Bean has played a below 100 DRtg defense in the Finals 4 times. When MJ played a below 100 DRtg team in the playoffs he never shot over .401 FG%.


Michael Jordan vs Defenses with better than 100 DRtg
'93 ECF vs New York: 32.2 ppg | 6.2 rpg | 7.0 apg | .400 fg% | .400 3p%
'97 ECF vs Miami: 30.2 ppg | 8.0 rpg | 2.6 apg .386 fg% | .118 3p%

Kobe Bryant vs Defenses with better than 100 DRtg
'99 WCSF vs San Antonio: 21.3 ppg | 6.5 rpg | 3.5 apg | .447 fg% | .333 3p%
'00 WCSF vs Phoenix: 21.0 ppg | 3.8 rpg | 3.4 apg | .452 fg% | .154 3p%
'01 WCSF vs Sacramento: 35.0 ppg | 9.0 rpg | 4.3 apg | .473 fg% | .200 3p%
'01 WCF vs San Antonio: 33.3 ppg | 7.0 rpg | 7.0 apg | .514 fg% | .357 3p%
'01 Finals vs Philadelphia: 24.6 ppg | 7.8 rpg | 5.8 apg | .415 fg% | .333 3p%
'02 WCSF vs San Antonio: 26.2 ppg | 5.4 rpg | 4.8 apg | .455 fg% | .231 3p%
'02 Finals vs New Jersey: 26.8 ppg | 5.8 rpg | 5.3 apg | .514 fg% | .545 3p%
'03 WCSF vs San Antonio: 32.3 ppg | 5.0 rpg | 3.7 apg | .434 fg% | .441 3p%
'04 WCQF vs Houston: 24.4 ppg | 5.6 rpg | 6.2 apg | .386 fg% | .211 3p%
'04 WCSF vs San Antonio: 26.3 ppg | 6.3 rpg | 5.8 apg | .462 fg% | .320 3p%
'04 WCF vs Minnesota: 24.3 ppg | 4.0 rpg | 5.5 apg | .414 fg% | .267 3p%
'04 Finals vs Detroit: 22.6 ppg | 2.8 rpg | 4.4 apg | .381 fg% | .174 3p%
'08 Finals vs Boston: 25.7 ppg | 4.7 rpg | 5.0 apg | .405 fg% | .321 3p%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sSl E
http://www.basketball-reference.com/
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289060

[Qwyjibo]

It's their entire career how is that limited?
"Career" is not a sample size. How many attempts for each of them?

This whole thread is near "full-retard" status anyway. The arbitrary end point of "last 24" as if seconds 25 and up didn't matter. The lack of sample sizes. How about free throws attempted/made?

[RRR3]

I thought the majority of lebrons points against spurs in 07 were in 4th...
Am I wrong or is deuce at it again?

[Deuce Bigalow]

I thought the majority of lebrons points against in 07 were in 4th...
Am I wrong or is deuce at it again?
Yeah they were. It was the opposite in 07 - played bad in first 3, good in 4th.

[RRR3]

Yeah they were. It was the opposite in 07 - played bad in first 3, good in 4th.

Then you should have said so in the first place instead of making stuff up. :no:

[DonDadda59]

Bean has played a below 100 DRtg defense in the Finals 4 times. When MJ played a below 100 DRtg team in the playoffs he never shot over .401 FG%.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289060

Again... what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand. And :oldlol:
at using DRTG like that proves anything. Why not win shares or some other random 'advanced stat'?

According to DRTG, Gar Heard is the greatest defensive player in NBA history and Manu Ginobli is a better defender than Scottie Pippen.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_active.html

Pop Quiz... DRTG is the end-all-be-all, right? Then do you agree that the '73-'74 Pistons (supposedly a 'weak' defensive era) are superior defensively to the '03-'04 Pistons? DRTG tells me not only is that true, but it looks like the '73-'74 season might've been the greatest defensive season in NBA history. Just look at the ratings from that season.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/557603/cmon_son.jpg

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Again... what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand. And :oldlol:
at using DRTG like that proves anything. Why not win shares or some other random 'advanced stat'?

According to DRTG, Gar Heard is the greatest defensive player in NBA history and Manu Ginobli is a better defender than Scottie Pippen.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_active.html

Pop Quiz... DRTG is the end-all-be-all, right? Then do you agree that the '73-'74 Pistons (supposedly a 'weak' defensive era) are superior defensively to the '03-'04 Pistons? DRTG tells me not only is that true, but it looks like the '73-'74 season might've been the greatest defensive season in NBA history. Just look at the ratings from that season.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/557603/cmon_son.jpg

:oldlol:
DRtg is Points per 100 possessions, what is wrong? Don't see anything wrong with it. It's no coincidence that MJ's two worst efficienct series are vs the best defenses he faced. And it has to do with what you posted because you just mentioned his finals performances lol

[fpliii]

Again... what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand. And :oldlol:
at using DRTG like that proves anything. Why not win shares or some other random 'advanced stat'?

Win shares/PER and any derivatives are box score based, and are inherently flawed by misrepresenting defensive contributions. They also generally have fairly low r^2 values, aren't as consistent as you'd like, and don't tell you all that much in general.

DRtg is just how many points per adjusted 100 possessions your defense allows (team DRtg mind you; individual DRtg and ORtg are similarly flawed because they're computed using box score stats).

[DonDadda59]

DRtg is Points per 100 possessions, what is wrong? Don't see anything wrong with it. It's no coincidence that MJ's two worst efficienct series are vs the best defenses he faced. And it has to do with what you posted because you just mentioned his finals performances lol

My dude. Answer my damn question- DRTG says that the '73-'74 Detroit Pistons>'03-'04 Detroit Pistons defensively. But if the teenagers here are to be believed, everything before c. the Lakers 3-peat was a weak defensive era... so why does DRTG tell me that the early-mid 70s was by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history? :confusedshrug:

Here, go ahead and take a look at some team history/advanced stats. Look at that season, then come back here and tell how much of a failure your excuse-making post was :oldlol:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/

[fpliii]

My dude. Answer my damn question- DRTG says that the '73-'74 Detroit Pistons>'03-'04 Detroit Pistons defensively. But if the teenagers here are to be believed, everything before c. the Lakers 3-peat was a weak defensive era... so why does DRTG tell me that the early-mid 70s was by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history? :confusedshrug:

Here, go ahead and take a look at some team history/advanced stats. Look at that season, then come back here and tell how much of a failure your excuse-making post was :oldlol:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/

The 03-04 Pistons really picked up after they acquired Sheed. Their DRtg after that point (including the playoffs) was exceptional (I think it might be the lowest ever).

Looking at raw DRtg can sometimes be deceiving though. I put together a spreadsheet with z-scores (# of standard deviations from mean, more negative numbers are better for DRtg since you want it to be lower) for ORtg/DRtg/Pace a few months ago (I'm on my phone right now so I can't check the link, but I think my man Deuce has it). You'll reach similar conclusions either way, but these numbers probably mesh better with common perceptions (Dean Oliver used a similar metric in his book 'Basketball On Paper').

EDIT: Again though, individual DRtg is useless since it's just a formula from box score stats. Team DRtg is much more robust and actually measures what it claims to, more or less.

[Deuce Bigalow]

My dude. Answer my damn question- DRTG says that the '73-'74 Detroit Pistons>'03-'04 Detroit Pistons defensively. But if the teenagers here are to be believed, everything before c. the Lakers 3-peat was a weak defensive era... so why does DRTG tell me that the early-mid 70s was by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history? :confusedshrug:

Here, go ahead and take a look at some team history/advanced stats. Look at that season, then come back here and tell how much of a failure your excuse-making post was :oldlol:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/
Do I really need to tell you why? It was the 70s. Is there anything more that needs to be said? From everything that I've heard about that decade was that it was the worst era of basketball.

[DonDadda59]

Team DRtg is much more robust and actually measures what it claims to, more or less.

'73-'74 = Greatest defensive season in NBA history. '73-'74 Chicago Bulls/Milwaukee Bucks = GOAT defensive team :applause:

1. Chicago Bulls- 93.6
2. Milwaukee Bucks- 93.6
3. Detroit Pistons- 93.8
4. Capital Bullets- 94.2
5. New York Knicks- 94.7
6. Boston Celtics- 95.1
7. Los Angeles Lakers- 96.6
8. Golden State Warriors- 98.4
9. Atlanta Hawks- 99
10. Philadelphia 76ers- 99

Wouldst thou not agree? :confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

This has become such a trivial debate.

These scenarios require so much context. I would suggest using film tape and play by plays's for better guage than the arbitrary stats at hand.

[DonDadda59]

Do I really need to tell you why? It was the 70s. Is there anything more that needs to be said? From everything that I've heard about that decade was that it was the worst era of basketball.

You need to at least try to be consistent. You randomly and inexplicably posted about Jordan/Kobe DRTG teams in the playoffs (as if anyone with sense thinks the '04 Timberwolves were a better defensive squad than teams Jordan faced in the 90s :oldlol: ) for some odd reason in a thread about clutch stats. Then when I pointed out the fact that the same metric says that the early-mid 70s is by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history, now all of a sudden it holds no merit. You can't have it both ways.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You need to at least try to be consistent. You randomly and inexplicably posted about Jordan/Kobe DRTG teams in the playoffs (as if anyone with sense thinks the '04 Timberwolves were a better defensive squad than teams Jordan faced in the 90s :oldlol: ) for some odd reason in a thread about clutch stats. Then when I pointed out the fact that the same metric says that the early-mid 70s is by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history, now all of a sudden it holds no merit. You can't have it both ways.

Then he was just doing his best Kobe impersonation :oldlol:

Bean has had plenty of shitty finals performances, and he's been abysmal in the clutch in the past few seasons. How could anyone forget THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5yHsipowNw)?

I don't think I've ever seen a player single-handedly blow a lead in a significant game like that. The #s don't lie- as a 'clutch' player, Kobe is grossly overrated.
You brought it up. And what do you not understand about DRtg and the 70's decade? There's a reason why the NBA Finals was on tape delay until the 80's.

[fpliii]

'73-'74 = Greatest defensive season in NBA history. '73-'74 Chicago Bulls/Milwaukee Bucks = GOAT defensive team :applause:

1. Chicago Bulls- 93.6
2. Milwaukee Bucks- 93.6
3. Detroit Pistons- 93.8
4. Capital Bullets- 94.2
5. New York Knicks- 94.7
6. Boston Celtics- 95.1
7. Los Angeles Lakers- 96.6
8. Golden State Warriors- 98.4
9. Atlanta Hawks- 99
10. Philadelphia 76ers- 99

Wouldst thou not agree? :confusedshrug:

It's not perfect since the defensive climate changes from year-to-year. I just got in, here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sS lE#gid=0

higher z-score is better for offenses, lower is better for defenses (i.e. a big negative score is best), and for paces it just tells you what you'd expect.

Note that since the z-score tells you how many standard deviations you are from the mean, almost every team will fall between -1.0 and +1.0 in every category. The farther you are from the mean, the more exceptionally good (or bad) you are in that regard.

[ripthekik]

not surprised that lebron is more clutch than kobe
cuz lebron usually passes them, he only takes them when he has a wideeeeee open shot duhh

[DonDadda59]

You brought it up.

Actually, no I didn't. I was responding to another of your tangents that had nothing to do with the topic, specifically listing championships won.


That's nice. But what does it have to do with the topic at hand? :confusedshrug:


You know exactly what it has to do with the topic. Lebron's been in 3 finals, 2 of them he was not good in the 4th quarters in which many of the games were close.


And what do you not understand about DRtg and the 70's decade? There's a reason why the NBA Finals was on tape delay until the 80's.

I don't understand how in one instance you try to use DRTG as an excuse for Kobe's poor playoff/finals showings and to somehow show he played better defenses than Jordan... then when the same metric says that a 'weak era' is actually by far the toughest defensive era ever, all of a sudden you start talking about tape delays :oldlol:

All I'm saying is at least try to stay consistent.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Actually, no I didn't. I was responding to another of your tangents that had nothing to do with the topic, specifically listing championships won.







I don't understand how in one instance you try to use DRTG as an excuse for Kobe's poor playoff/finals showings and to somehow show he played better defenses than Jordan... then when the same metric says that a 'weak era' is actually by far the toughest defensive era ever, all of a sudden you start talking about tape delays :oldlol:

All I'm saying is at least try to stay consistent.
You keep on making excuses and are consistent at doing so. I'm just saying that Kobe has played elite defense in the Finals and when Jordan played against a defense that was on that level, he shot around the same as Kobe did. Defense in the early 00's was elite, every stat you can think of shows that it is better defense than the 80s and 90s, no not going to compare the 70s,60s,& 50s because it was clearly a deferent league-something you don't get for some reason. DRtg, TS%, eFG%, FG%, PPS all at it's lowest in '98-2004 since '79-80 season. Don't worry dude, your man Jordan won a title, FMVP, MVP, a scoring title and made the all-nba first team in the '98 season, which was great defensive season.

[mikek85]

Kobe is GOAT obviously

[DonDadda59]

You keep on making excuses...

Yeah I'm gonna leave this thread here. I'm the one making excuses? That is so hilarious it's almost scary. :oldlol:

Well, back to the drawing board for you I suppose. Can't wait to see what you cook up next before you backtrack away from it. DRTG just went the way of 'advanced zone defense'. Good luck to you :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah I'm gonna leave this thread here. I'm the one making excuses? That is so hilarious it's almost scary. :oldlol:

Well, back to the drawing board for you I suppose. Can't wait to see what you cook up next before you backtrack away from it. DRTG just went the way of 'advanced zone defense'. Good luck to you :cheers:
While you're leaving keep comparing the. 50s,60s,&70s decades to the modern era. Bbbbut look at the drtg of the 73 season :lol
You're making excuses to not accept DRTG.

[DonDadda59]

While you're leaving keep comparing the. 50s,60s,&70s decades to the modern era. Bbbbut look at the drtg of the 73 season :lol
You're making excuses to not accept DRTG.

I learned from the best. buh buh buh look at the '04 Timberwolves or Kings DRTG compared to the Bad Boy Pistons and their Jordan rules :oldlol:

And how am I not 'accepting' DRTG? DRTG tells me that the early-mids 70s is by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history. Who am I to argue against that infallible metric?

Go to sleep. Soon, you'll have more Kobe excuses that you'll back track from once I expose you. Until then, let's hope Bean stops choking in the clutch and helps his HOF teammates reach .500 :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I learned from the best. buh buh buh look at the '04 Timberwolves or Kings DRTG compared to the Bad Boy Pistons and their Jordan rules :oldlol:

And how am I not 'accepting' DRTG? DRTG tells me that the early-mids 70s is by far the greatest defensive era in NBA history. Who am I to argue against that infallible metric?

Go to sleep. Soon, you'll have more Kobe excuses that you'll back track from once I expose you. Until then, let's hope Bean stops choking in the clutch and helps his HOF teammates reach .500 :cheers:
Oh wow. Are you purposely trying to be ignorant?