Where do the 03-04 Pistons rank among the all-time great defenses?

[fpliii]

They have to be pretty high up there, right? Since I started watching in the early 90s, four defenses have most stood out to me...Ewing's Knicks, Duncan's Spurs, Garnett's Celtics, and that Pistons team that went all the way.

How do they compare to the greatest defenses you've seen? Do you think they're one of the best in league history (perhaps the best)?

Some Math

Evidently, DRTG = Points allowed * 100 / (.96 * (FGA - ORb + TO + (.44 * FTA)))

From this B-R search (http://bkref.com/tiny/lEcXb), we can plug in the necessary values to get:

2051 * 100 / (.96 * (1954 - 283 + 368 + (.44 * 642))) = 92.0

which is incredibly impressive. It's only 26 games, but they replicated it exactly in the postseason (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004.html) against tougher opposition.

I plugged in the 92.0 in place of their actual 95.4 DRtg on the season, and came out with a -2.6 z-score (# of standard deviations from the mean)on that season. This spreadsheet I put together (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sS lE#gid=0) a few months ago has the z-scores for other teams in the shotclock era. How many other teams check in at -2.0 or better? Here they are (along with DRtgs):

1956-57 BOS - 84.7 (-2.0)
1961-62 BOS - 85.7 (-2.3)
1962-63 BOS - 88.0 (-2.0)
1963-64 BOS - 84.4 (-2.0)
1964-65 BOS - 84.7 (-2.2)
1965-66 BOS - 88.6 (-2.0)
1967-68 MNM - 92.5 (-2.1)*
1969-70 NYK - 92.9 (-2.3)
1970-71 NYK - 91.9 (-2.2)
1974-75 WSB - 91.3 (-2.9)**
1975-76 GSW - 94.5 (-2.0)**
1980-81 PHO - 99.4 (-2.0)
1987-88 UTA - 103.1 (-2.0)
1988-89 UTA - 101.5 (-2.5)
1992-93 NYK - 99.7 (-2.9)
1993-94 NYK - 98.2 (-2.3)
2003-04 DET - 95.4 (-2.0)
2003-04 SAS - 94.1 (-2.3)
2004-05 SAS - 98.8 (-2.3)
2006-07 CHI - 99.6 (-2.1)
2006-07 SAS - 99.9 (-2.0)
2007-08 BOS - 98.9 (-2.7)
2010-11 BOS - 100.3 (-2.0)
2010-11 CHI - 100.3 (-2.0)

* first season of ABA's existence
** both occurred during the last couple of years the ABA was around, when it was considered to be a comparable league to the NBA

How about teams with a -2.5 or better?

1974-75 WSB - 91.3 (-2.9)**
1988-89 UTA - 101.5 (-2.5)
1992-93 NYK - 99.7 (-2.9)
2007-08 BOS - 98.9 (-2.7)

The Pistons with Sheed would be the fifth team in this group (remember we calculated their z-score to be -2.6).

[KG215]

Yeah, I was going to say, as great as they were before the Rasheed Wallace trade, he just took them to another level Not that he became the best defender once he joined the team (that was obviously still Ben Wallace), but he gave them an added ingredient to go from being an elite defensive team to an all-time great defensive team. And even as great as the Spurs defense was that year, I wouldn't have guessed they had a higher z-score than the Pistons before they got Wallace. Of course Duncan in his prime is one of the best defensive anchors ever, and Bowen was a nasty perimeter defender. No surprise their defense was just as good the following year, and that time it culminated in a championship.

[gin17]

the starting 5 were all defensive specialists/beasts. very rare to see a lineup that good defensively. they have to be at least top 3, imo.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Greatest of all time

2004 NBA Playoffs
DRtg: 92.0
Opponents PPG: 80.7
Opponents eFG%: 42.3
Opponents FG%: 39.2
Opponents 3P%: 27.7
Opponents PPS: 1.073

[Cali Syndicate]

Any outliers for weak defensive teams in any of those seasons?

Anyways that 08 Celtics team and Knicks are among the top IMO.

[fpliii]

Any outliers for weak defensive teams in any of those seasons?

Anyways that 08 Celtics team and Knicks are among the top IMO.

Here's a link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sS lE#gid=0) to the spreadsheet. The worst defensive teams (those with 2.0 z-score) are highlighted in red.

Are you interested in just the seasons with the exceptionally strong defenses, or just bad defensive teams in general?

[Cali Syndicate]

Here's a link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sS lE#gid=0) to the spreadsheet. The worst defensive teams (those with 2.0 z-score) are highlighted in red.

Are you interested in just the seasons with the exceptionally strong defenses, or just bad defensive teams in general?

All seasons. Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.

[Ne 1]

Easily one of the greatest defenses ever if not the greatest. Anchored by an incredible defender too, the best of the generation. I've never seen a defensive team quite like that Pistons squad after they got Sheed.

In Sheed's 21 starts in the '04 regular season, the Pistons allowed an average of just 76.8 ppg and they were 17-4 in those games. They held opponents under 70 points in 5 consecutive games in that stretch and under 80 points in 8 consecutive games during that same stretch. In those 21 games, an opponents high was 94 (the only time an opponent scored over 90 vs Detroit in those 21 games Sheed started). They held Indiana to just 61 points one game and in 8 out of those 21 games, they held their opponent under 70 points. In a playoff game, they held the Nets to just 56 points.

[fpliii]

All seasons. Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.

I just checked:

1969-70 MMF - 104.7 (2.0)*
1971-72 PTC - 113.1 (2.6)**
1975-76 UTS - 110.4 (2.1)
1977-78 HOU - 106.1 (2.5)
1983-84 SDC - 112.4 (2.0)
1984-85 GSW - 113.0 (2.2)
1989-90 ORL - 114.3 (2.3)
1990-91 DEN - 114.7 (2.5)
1992-93 DAL - 114.7 (2.3)***
1997-98 DEN - 112.1 (2.0)
1998-99 DEN - 110.4 (2.2)
1998-99 LAC - 109.7 (2.0)
2002-03 GSW - 109.5 (2.0)
2003-04 ORL - 110.4 (2.0)
2005-06 SEA - 114.4 (2.4)
2008-09 SAC - 114.7 (2.0)

* early ABA season
** also an ABA season, but the league started picking up not soon after this...they were probably legitimately bad on that end
*** they were also atrocious offensively, -2.7 in that department which is one of the worst ever (might be THE worst ever, I'd have to check)

EDIT: actually, the Bobcats last season at -2.9, the Nuggets in 03 at -3.0, Chicago in 98 and 99 at -2.9 and -3.1 (after Jordan/Pippen/PJax left), the 88 Clippers, the 76 and 77 Nets at -2.7 a each (after they lost Erving, who went to the Sixers), the ABA's New Orleans Jazz in 75 at -2.7 were all as bad or worse

[Cali Syndicate]

You compiled all this fpliii?

This is very nice.

[fpliii]

You compiled all this fpliii?

This is very nice.

Well, I exported the DRtgs for available for seasons from basketball-reference.com for available seasons. The rest I approximated using the methodology on ElGee's page (backpicks.com; it seems that it's currently adware-infested though).

But the z-scores are mine...Dean Oliver did something similar in his book 'Basketball On Paper', so I decided to take simple z-scores (which are again, just the number of standard deviations the sample data is from the mean, in a given season in this case). They're probably the best single number representations of how effective a team offense or team defense was overall (plus the pace z-rating numbers will tell you how much a given squad ran versus the rest of the league; DRtg, ORtg, Pace numbers vary as rules changes, this attempts to adjust for that and normalize those three numbers so they can be compared across eras).

It's useful to have it in one place though.

[Cali Syndicate]

Well, I exported the DRtgs for available for seasons from basketball-reference.com for available seasons. The rest I approximated using the methodology on ElGee's page (backpicks.com; it seems that it's currently adware-infested though).

But the z-scores are mine...Dean Oliver did something similar in his book 'Basketball On Paper', so I decided to take simple z-scores (which are again, just the number of standard deviations the sample data is from the mean, in a given season in this case). They're probably the best single number representations of how effective a team offense or team defense was overall (plus the pace z-rating numbers will tell you how much a given squad ran versus the rest of the league; DRtg, ORtg, Pace numbers vary as rules changes, this attempts to adjust for that and normalize those three numbers so they can be compared across eras).

It's useful to have it in one place though.

I still like. Paints a nice picture.

[fpliii]

I still like. Paints a nice picture.

:cheers:

Additionally it passes the eye test, which made the time/effort worth it IMO.

[Clippersfan86]

Best defense of all time.

[Toizumi]

Easily one of the greatest defenses ever if not the greatest. Anchored by an incredible defender too, the best of the generation. I've never seen a defensive team quite like that Pistons squad after they got Sheed.

In Sheed's 21 starts in the '04 regular season, the Pistons allowed an average of just 76.8 ppg and they were 17-4 in those games. They held opponents under 70 points in 5 consecutive games in that stretch and under 80 points in 8 consecutive games during that same stretch. In those 21 games, an opponents high was 94 (the only time an opponent scored over 90 vs Detroit in those 21 games Sheed started). They held Indiana to just 61 points one game and in 8 out of those 21 games, they held their opponent under 70 points. In a playoff game, they held the Nets to just 56 points.


I remember the Nets scoring just over 70 against the Pistons in a regular season matchup, in a loss obviously, and to them it was a moral victory because they scored over 70. Good times.

[fpliii]

I remember the Nets scoring just over 70 against the Pistons in a regular season matchup, in a loss obviously, and to them it was a moral victory because they scored over 70. Good times.

:cheers:

[JoshCoward]

I remember the Nets scoring just over 70 against the Pistons in a regular season matchup, in a loss obviously, and to them it was a moral victory because they scored over 70. Good times.

Those Nets team with Kidd, Martin and Jefferson gave a good fight though.

Pistons probably had one of the best defense I've seen from a team. I remember the times when it was weird seeing opposition scoring more than 80pts on them. They definitely deserved that Championship over the Lakers.

[Clifton]

How do they compare to the greatest defenses you've seen?
Best I've ever seen. Started watching in 2000.

They were just amazing. They would hold guys under 70 every other game. Never seen anything like it. Every possession they were on defense it was like JV vs. Varsity.

[eliteballer]

The refs let them get away with A LOT of contact, maybe more than any defense I've seen...

[Whoah10115]

The 2007-08 and half of 2008-09 Boston Celtics is the best defense I've seen.


And I'm a Knicks fan thru and thru, who has a heavy emotional attachment to those 90's teams, which are up there. I think you have to mention the Bulls, especially the 2nd 3peat. The Spurs in 99 (more Robinson than Duncan back then), even the Bulls in 2010-11 are up there..tho I guess you could argue being quite in the same tier.

[DatAsh]

Definitely top 5

1964 Celtics
1965 Celtics
1994 Knicks
2004 Pistons
2008 Celtics

Not sure how to order those 5 though.

[fpliii]

Definitely top 5

1964 Celtics
1965 Celtics
1994 Knicks
2004 Pistons
2008 Celtics

Not sure how to order those 5 though.

Great stuff.

While -2.0 is an arbitrary cutoff, it's incredible that six of the first nine Celtics teams pulled it off (some playing at breakneck speed with Cousy, before slowing it down with K.C. and others as ball-handlers). Check this out though:

0.5 (last season before Russell), -2.0, -1.8, -1.8, -1.7, -1.7, -2.3, -2.0, -2.0, -2.2, -2.0, -1.7, 1.6, -1.7, -0.1 (first season without Russell)

some ridiculous stuff.

[Clifton]

The refs let them get away with A LOT of contact, maybe more than any defense I've seen...
I don't remember this, but I can believe you. The refs have a human tendency to be lenient toward guys who put on a great show. That's why Wade got 20 free throws a game in 06, and if the Pistons got away with murder, that's why: they were the greatest show on earth the second half of the 2004 season. My friends and I would flock to the tv to see them hold every team to 65.

[DatAsh]

Great stuff.

While -2.0 is an arbitrary cutoff, it's incredible that six of the first nine Celtics teams pulled it off (some playing at breakneck speed with Cousy, before slowing it down with K.C. and others as ball-handlers). Check this out though:

0.5 (last season before Russell), -2.0, -1.8, -1.8, -1.7, -1.7, -2.3, -2.0, -2.0, -2.2, -2.0, -1.7, 1.6, -1.7, -0.1 (first season without Russell)

some ridiculous stuff.

Indeed.

I seriously doubt we'll ever see a player with that much defensive impact again. It could happen, but I doubt it, especially with the way the game is spreading out.

[ThaRegul8r]

Definitely top 5

1964 Celtics
1965 Celtics
1994 Knicks
2004 Pistons
2008 Celtics

Not sure how to order those 5 though.

:applause: on being the first to mention the '64 Celtics.

[ThaRegul8r]

Indeed.

I seriously doubt we'll ever see a player with that much defensive impact again. It could happen, but I doubt it, especially with the way the game is spreading out.

I'll come out and say flat out that it will never happen again.

[DatAsh]

:applause: on being the first to mention the '64 Celtics.

Honestly, any one of those 62'-65' Celtics has a solid case for being in that group. I do think 64' and 65' were the best though.

In 1964 they were 11.5 points below average and 5.6 below the second best team.

In 1965 they were 9.9 points below average and 8.1 points below the second best team.

[DatAsh]

The 2007-08 and half of 2008-09 Boston Celtics is the best defense I've seen.


And I'm a Knicks fan thru and thru, who has a heavy emotional attachment to those 90's teams, which are up there. I think you have to mention the Bulls, especially the 2nd 3peat. The Spurs in 99 (more Robinson than Duncan back then), even the Bulls in 2010-11 are up there..tho I guess you could argue being quite in the same tier.

The 2008 Celtics were incredible.

Which of the 90's Knicks teams do you think had the best defense?

[Whoah10115]

The 2008 Celtics were incredible.

Which of the 90's Knicks teams do you think had the best defense?


Either the 93 or 94 team...the 93 team is the best Knicks team, but 1994 was a dominant defensive year. Oak was a deserving top 3 DPOTY candidate that year. We got Harper at the break and he brought defense, tho his offense wasn't there until the playoffs. I think I have to go with 1994, just for the PPG. I remember some stats off my head: 98.5PPG for and 91.5PPG against...opposing teams failed to score 100points against them 61 times that year, which may have been a record, I don't know. But I believe that was the lowest PPG allowed up until that point.

[Rekindled]

definitely best of all time.

most of their games they hold their opponents under 80 points. that's is ridiculous.

[Rake2204]

I remember the Nets scoring just over 70 against the Pistons in a regular season matchup, in a loss obviously, and to them it was a moral victory because they scored over 70. Good times.Ha, I totally remember that. They'd held five consecutive teams to less than 70 points. Then they were blowing out the Nets and the game was already decided, and I remember Aaron Williams scoring with a second left to give the Nets 71 and he fist pumped in triumph.

[Money 23]

Rodman's Pistons
90s Bulls
90s Riley Knicks
90s Riley Heat
90s Sonics
Duncan's Spurs
Kidd's Nets
2000s Larry Brown Sixers
2000s Larry Brown Pistons
Garnett's Celtics
LeBron's Heat
2010s Thibs Bulls

Best defenses I've seen since I've started watching NBA basketball.

[Clifton]

Ha, I totally remember that. They'd held five consecutive teams to less than 70 points. Then they were blowing out the Nets and the game was already decided, and I remember Aaron Williams scoring with a second left to give the Nets 71 and he fist pumped in triumph.
I remember that game too.

[fpliii]

How about those two Mark Eaton Jazz teams on the list in the OP? They didn't do much in 89, but they gave the champs a good series in 88.

[Pointguard]

They have to be pretty high up there, right? Since I started watching in the early 90s, four defenses have most stood out to me...Ewing's Knicks, Duncan's Spurs, Garnett's Celtics, and that Pistons team that went all the way.

How do they compare to the greatest defenses you've seen? Do you think they're one of the best in league history (perhaps the best)?

Some Math

Evidently, DRTG = Points allowed * 100 / (.96 * (FGA - ORb + TO + (.44 * FTA)))

From this B-R search (http://bkref.com/tiny/lEcXb), we can plug in the necessary values to get:

2051 * 100 / (.96 * (1954 - 283 + 368 + (.44 * 642))) = 92.0

which is incredibly impressive. It's only 26 games, but they replicated it exactly in the postseason (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004.html) against tougher opposition.

I plugged in the 92.0 in place of their actual 95.4 DRtg on the season, and came out with a -2.6 z-score (# of standard deviations from the mean)on that season. This spreadsheet I put together (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdGJZdVI5X0dySzNJWm51NkZ2UU1sS lE#gid=0) a few months ago has the z-scores for other teams in the shotclock era. How many other teams check in at -2.0 or better? Here they are (along with DRtgs):

1956-57 BOS - 84.7 (-2.0)
1961-62 BOS - 85.7 (-2.3)
1962-63 BOS - 88.0 (-2.0)
1963-64 BOS - 84.4 (-2.0)
1964-65 BOS - 84.7 (-2.2)
1965-66 BOS - 88.6 (-2.0)
1967-68 MNM - 92.5 (-2.1)*
1969-70 NYK - 92.9 (-2.3)
1970-71 NYK - 91.9 (-2.2)
1974-75 WSB - 91.3 (-2.9)**
1975-76 GSW - 94.5 (-2.0)**
1980-81 PHO - 99.4 (-2.0)
1987-88 UTA - 103.1 (-2.0)
1988-89 UTA - 101.5 (-2.5)
1992-93 NYK - 99.7 (-2.9)
1993-94 NYK - 98.2 (-2.3)
2003-04 DET - 95.4 (-2.0)
2003-04 SAS - 94.1 (-2.3)
2004-05 SAS - 98.8 (-2.3)
2006-07 CHI - 99.6 (-2.1)
2006-07 SAS - 99.9 (-2.0)
2007-08 BOS - 98.9 (-2.7)
2010-11 BOS - 100.3 (-2.0)
2010-11 CHI - 100.3 (-2.0)

* first season of ABA's existence
** both occurred during the last couple of years the ABA was around, when it was considered to be a comparable league to the NBA

How about teams with a -2.5 or better?

1974-75 WSB - 91.3 (-2.9)**
1988-89 UTA - 101.5 (-2.5)
1992-93 NYK - 99.7 (-2.9)
2007-08 BOS - 98.9 (-2.7)

The Pistons with Sheed would be the fifth team in this group (remember we calculated their z-score to be -2.6).
Wow, that's really impressive. I usually don't like defensive stats or find that they blur things. And "Ewing's Knicks, Duncan's Spurs, Garnett's Celtics, and that Pistons team that went all the way" is really dead on. And as Money23 said Rodman's Pistons.

[fpliii]

Wow, that's really impressive. I usually don't like defensive stats or find that they blur things. And "Ewing's Knicks, Duncan's Spurs, Garnett's Celtics, and that Pistons team that went all the way" is really dead on. And as Money23 said Rodman's Pistons.

:cheers:

I started watching in 90-91 though, and they didn't stand out as much (perhaps I was too young though). I've watched all of the playoff games I can find from before then though (complete ECF/WCF/Finals from 79-80 on, and whatever else has been available for teams that made it that far), and the Bad Boy Pistons definitely stand out as well.

[Pointguard]

Those Nets team with Kidd, Martin and Jefferson gave a good fight though.

Pistons probably had one of the best defense I've seen from a team. I remember the times when it was weird seeing opposition scoring more than 80pts on them. They definitely deserved that Championship over the Lakers.

The Nets definitely beat them in the playoffs if Kidd was healthy (his knee and back wrecked him). It went seven games with half of Kidd the entire series.

[copper]

The Nets definitely beat them in the playoffs if Kidd was healthy (his knee and back wrecked him). It went seven games with half of Kidd the entire series.
The only thing thats defenite is that the Pistons won. Could there have been a different outcome? sure...and if your aunt had a ***** she would be your uncle.

[97 bulls]

You also must.consider the Pistons offense. They were on the lower end when it comes to OFRTG. And bottom 5 i believe in PPG. This has alot to do with why they were so good defensively.

[fpliii]

Just thought I'd give this thread a healthy bump. Some great conversation here so far.

[Odinn]

Definitely top 5

1964 Celtics
1965 Celtics
1994 Knicks
2004 Pistons
2008 Celtics

Not sure how to order those 5 though.
Sorry but 2008 Celtics are all about hype. There is no chance of one of the top 5 defensive teams ever allowing 100+ points 7 times in the playoffs (in the modern era). And they didn't even face a high-paced team!

[fpliii]

bump

[ILLsmak]

I wouldn't say they are one of the best all time teams on D. They were good, though. A lot of defensive players. Even guys off the bench.

-Smak

[Rake2204]

Loved how four Pistons were selected to the '06 All-Star team then proceeded to check in to the game together and lock down the Western Conference All-Stars. Of all the teams in history, they would be the guys who'd come to an All-Star game to force shot clock violations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cUZRECXZ2Y

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Loved how four Pistons were selected to the '06 All-Star team then proceeded to check in to the game together and lock down the Western Conference All-Stars. Of all the teams in history, they would be the guys who'd come to an All-Star game to force shot clock violations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cUZRECXZ2Y

LeBron's face is so thin in that game.

[RIP CITY]

Obviously I'm biased but I truly believe that was the best defensive team I've ever seen. Not only because they had the roster but because Larry Brown had some ingenious defensive schemes that no one else other than Popovich has been able to rival. His masterpiece being in the Finals deciding to play Shaq without doubling and throw a sophisticated bracket at Kobe, to keep him out of lane and shooting long contested jumpers by bracketing him with Tayshaun in front, Rip and Chauncey diving in from both sides the minute Kobe put the ball on the floor and took a step towards the basket to cut off his driving lanes because it was easier for Rip and Chauncey to get back to the open shooter than to bring over a big to double Kobe, it worked to perfection. Given how dominate Shaq was nobody would have had the balls to single cover him but Larry knew without Kobe's playmaking and Shaq's passing out of the double-team that the rest of those guys were worthless because everything they got came from Kobe and Shaq. No one on the Lakers other than Shaq/Kobe scored in double figures until Payton got 10 points in Game 5, which was a complete and utter blowout.

The 2nd best defensive player of his era in Ben Wallace (Duncan was better and it's one of the biggest travesties in NBA history that he doesn't have multiple DPOY's, even a couple of Ben's DPOY's should have gone to Duncan), Top 2-3 post defender in Sheed, Top 5 perimeter defender in Prince and two good defenders in Chauncey and Rip. With Lindsey Hunter and Mike James playing press defense off the bench, wreaking havoc in the backcourt. That starting 5 played on a string like no other team I've ever seen.

The Bad Boys are obviously one of the greatest defenses ever as well. 2008 Celtics are right up there. The second 3 Peat Bulls are right up there. The 90's Knicks are up there. A couple of those Spurs teams are way up there.

But Pistons fan or not, I can objectively say that's the best defensive team I've ever seen. At the end of the season teams were celebrating getting 71 points against them. They set a record for most consecutive games holding teams under under 80 points and were just suffocating even the best offensive teams in the League that year.

[SamuraiSWISH]

89, '90 Pistons
'92 - '96 Knicks
'94 - '97 Sonics
'97 - 2000 Heat
'90s Bulls
2004, 2005, 2006 Pistons
2008 - 2012 Celtics
2011, 2012, 2013 Bulls
2011, 2012, 2013 Heat

Spring to mind as basically the best defenses I've seen since watching NBA basketball ...

[aj1987]

2013 Heat
This team was really scary when they were trailing in the second half and basically shut down their opponents. They weren't consistently good though. Defensive lapses let teams build a lead. When they were focused though, game over.

[Rake2204]

Obviously I'm biased but I truly believe that was the best defensive team I've ever seen. Not only because they had the roster but because Larry Brown had some ingenious defensive schemes that no one else other than Popovich has been able to rival. His masterpiece being in the Finals deciding to play Shaq without doubling and throw a sophisticated bracket at Kobe, to keep him out of lane and shooting long contested jumpers by bracketing him with Tayshaun in front, Rip and Chauncey diving in from both sides the minute Kobe put the ball on the floor and took a step towards the basket to cut off his driving lanes because it was easier for Rip and Chauncey to get back to the open shooter than to bring over a big to double Kobe, it worked to perfection. Given how dominate Shaq was nobody would have had the balls to single cover him but Larry knew without Kobe's playmaking and Shaq's passing out of the double-team that the rest of those guys were worthless because everything they got came from Kobe and Shaq. No one on the Lakers other than Shaq/Kobe scored in double figures until Payton got 10 points in Game 5, which was a complete and utter blowout.That's a good point about scheme. I'm completely biased and I'll rightfully admit as such, so it's hard for me to rank the Pistons here. Though, having watched them so much, I will say their defensive schemes were often just as fun to see as the defense itself.

Those Pistons are one of the NBA few teams I've seen that's been been able press the opposition on a regular basis (often with two guards off the bench) and experience regular success. That's supposed to be high school strategy, yet here they were making it happen in the NBA Finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaQRberowqg

[Odinn]

I do not think the Pistons coached by Larry Brown shouldn't be considerer just as 2003-04 Pistons. 2004-05 Pistons played on the same level. One of the best defensive teams ever.

New York Knicks from 1969-70 to 1972-73, coached by Red Holzman
Bad Boys, coached by Chuck Daly
'90s Bulls, coached by Phil Jackson
Early-Mid '90s New York Knicks, coached by Pat Riley
Mid '90s Sonics, coached by George Karl
Mid '00s Pistons, coached by Larry Brown
Early&Mid '00s Spurs, coached by Gregg Popovich
Late '00s Celtics, coached by Doc Rivers

I do not consider LeBron era Heat as an all-time great defensive team. They were/are a great defensive team when they want to be. But not consistent enough to be called an all-time grea defensive team.


Mid '00s Pistons, coached by Larry Brown
Mid '00s Spurs, coached by Gregg Popovich

These 2 teams are my main candidates for the greatest defensive team ever.