View Full Version : LeBron's 'Un-Clutch' Myth. He's actually more clutch than Kobe and Durant.
stallionaire
02-01-2013, 05:11 AM
http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg
Speak haters. How do you dispute this evidence?
mjokc
02-01-2013, 05:20 AM
http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg
Speak haters. How do you dispute this evidence?
FG% is nice, but what are the volume of shots?
brandonislegend
02-01-2013, 05:23 AM
FG% is nice, but what are the volume of shots?
this.
Kyrie Irving is at 54.4% right now but it doesn't even show how many shots they are using that sample size off of.
jamal99
02-01-2013, 05:25 AM
Melo is mad clutch :applause:
chazzy
02-01-2013, 05:31 AM
Not hating, but I'm pretty sure Lebron's numbers are wrong. He was at 23/69 going into his first Miami season and has been 4/22 since.
RoundMoundOfReb
02-01-2013, 05:33 AM
edit
UtahJazzFan88
02-01-2013, 05:36 AM
I think LeBron's "unclutchness" is due to the fact that he doesn't have as many walk off shots as those guys listed, yet he's still great at the end of games.
no pun intended
02-01-2013, 05:52 AM
http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg
Speak haters. How do you dispute this evidence?
This doesn't say much. The reason for this "un-clutchness" also stems from his LeBron's over-selectiveness in his shots, which makes him unable to draw a definite line between when it is best to be aggressive and when to be passive. Nonetheless, with Ray Allen now in the mix, I think this makes it is easier for him to draw this line now.
FG% is nice, but what are the volume of shots?
Higher than Carmelo (and especially Durant obviously, less seasons afterall). You can see that here, although its only up to 2009: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time (ironically enough the article touches on the myth of Kobe being very clutch)
But Kobe has played more games than basically anybody today obviously so ofcourse he took more of those shots.
Lebron is also 6 of 14 (43%) in the playoffs, Kobe is 7 of 29 (24%), Durant is 3 of 6... can see more details about that here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279220
This doesn't say much. The reason for this "un-clutchness" also stems from his LeBron's over-selectiveness in his shots, which makes him unable to draw a definite line between when it is best to be aggressive and when to be passive. Nonetheless, with Ray Allen now in the mix, I think this makes it is easier for him to draw this line now.
Is Carmelo over-selective to and passive? No? Then why has Carmelo taken less and made less gamewinning/gametying shots despite coming in to the NBA the same year Lebron did? What excuse do we use now?
White Mamba
02-01-2013, 06:49 AM
:roll: try prove it to the mavs fans.
ripthekik
02-01-2013, 06:59 AM
please.
only reason his fg% might be a bit higher because he NEVER/HARDLY takes those shots when his team is down. It's always hot potato pass to mario chalmers last season, and this season ALWAYS passes to his daddy ray allen. only when his team is tied, or because of some scramble he's suddenly wide open, then he'll take the shot.
any clutchness spewed by lebron fans such as pauk, lebron23 is the real myth. he just doesn't got it. and there's nothing to be ashamed of, he's still a heck of a player.
lebron fans, just let it go.
:roll: try prove it to the mavs fans.
~4 games is not exactly the be all end all for a players capability in any facet of the game, for the good or for the bad.... just before that series everybody was debating who the best clutch player was in the playoffs him or Nowitzki, after that ECF performance on both ends in the clutch it was all about Lebron (which made his performance in the clutch vs Mavs even more shocking after that work he did against Celtics & Bulls).... lots can happen in that very short span, from overall luck or rythm or good shot/plays/decisions, to bad luck or no rythm or bad shots/plays/decisions (especially in Lebrons situation that year with the new team/role and ofcourse the scrutiny) ...
In the clutch or in any way any player in NBA history underperformed in such a short span during the season or playoffs.... the sample size is just to small to make anything out of it except prove that "This player played bad during these 4 games"... because in example Lebrons case at the end of the day in the Playoffs Lebron is overall 6 of 14 in the gamewinner department, averages highest 4th quarter PPG and has the best "clutch stats" (performance with 5 minutes or less in 4th/OT with neither team ahead of more than 5 pts) and im sure you know of some of his historic playoff clutch highlights & performances... that his numbers catapult in the playoffs is just another bonus....
PS: What happened to Lebron vs Mavs in the clutch (or his PPG for that series) is the worst productive series you will EVER see from Lebron, i believe we will never see anything close to as that bad from him (and you couldnt see it before either)...... it was THAT bad by Lebrons standards...
Trentknicks
02-01-2013, 07:56 AM
Is Carmelo over-selective to and passive? No? Then why has Carmelo taken less and made less gamewinning/gametying shots despite coming in to the NBA the same year Lebron did? What excuse do we use now?
Maybe cause funnily enough, as chance has it, not every game comes down to a last shot.
Trentknicks
02-01-2013, 07:58 AM
http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg
Speak haters. How do you dispute this evidence?
So no mention of hating Melo or the Knicks, how do you dispute this evidence?
How's the Wolves going? :roll:
nathanjizzle
02-01-2013, 09:49 AM
http://i.imgur.com/SPiScC0.jpg
Speak haters. How do you dispute this evidence?
how many shots are they taking.
Blue&Orange
02-01-2013, 10:16 AM
Melo :bowdown:
We all Know the King pussification took place once he bolted for Miami, he can't handle the pressure of being the favorite.
When someone tells me Lebron is clutch, i remember him passing the ball to battier, battier passing back to him and Lebron passing it back to battier, clock running down, and he wastes like 5 seconds passing the ball twice to someone that wasn't in position to take a shot. Happened just a couple games ago.
Definition of choke.
PS: What happened to Lebron vs Mavs in the clutch (or his PPG for that series) is the worst productive series you will EVER see from Lebron, i believe we will never see anything close to as that bad from him (and you couldnt see it before either)...... it was THAT bad by Lebrons standards...
No, it was that bad for just about any superstars' standards, even those below Lebron. And no, its not just about production, thats like half the reason. That would've been a black mark on even someone like Wade, Dirk, Melo, Rose, CP3, Pierce i.e. players clearly below him.
Lebron being considered un-clutch has more to do with the 2010 playoffs vs. the Celtics and the 2011 Finals vs. the Mavs. If it wasn't for those, no one would consider him that way. I'm not sure he deserves that reputation anymore considering last year cause he did do what he was supposed to do in spectacular fashion, but those 2 series were pretty bad.
The only criticism for the regular season he ever really deserved was not being able to hit walk-off shots, but thats such a small sample size with such specific criteria, that its hard to knock him that much for that. He's hit plenty of clutch shots still. He really doesn't deserve much criticism for what he's done in the regular season. If the ultimate goal was to win as many regular season games as possible, Lebron is by far the 1st pick and its been that way for like the past 4-5 years.
How we define his clutchness has more to do with who he's compared to I guess. In today's league, I would probably want Durant or CP3 over Lebron, but everyone else is up in the air.
Bandito
02-01-2013, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by pauk
PS: What happened to Lebron vs Mavs in the clutch (or his PPG for that series) is the worst productive series you will EVER see from Lebron, i believe we will never see anything close to as that bad from him (and you couldnt see it before either)...... it was THAT bad by Lebrons standards...
It was bad by Kwame standards my brother. He played great last year but that blemish in his career will never be deleted. THat and the 2010 playoffs.
Big Cheese
02-01-2013, 11:12 AM
LBJ has always made big plays in clutch in his career. His misses are just talked about 10000000X more than his makes.
Darius
02-01-2013, 11:15 AM
LBJ has always made big plays in clutch in his career. His misses are just talked about 10000000X more than his makes.
Yup and a lot of those "clutch" plays aren't just shots but they are passing and putting pressure on the defense.
Bottom line, in the clutch, he has the ball in his hands and is creating, whether he shoots it or not.
LikeABosh
02-01-2013, 11:43 AM
Lebron has been clutch his whole career. A few games in the Finals in 11' doesn't change shit. Haters don't like the cold hard facts and stats huh?
LBJ 23
02-01-2013, 12:37 PM
Lebron is always in a lose-lose situation on here. His missed shots are blown out of proportions.
Just look at the game against Boston a few days ago. He hit a clutch 3 to send game to OT. Then in OT he missed a potential gamewinner. Everybody on here was talking how he choked again and people were even creating threads about it. Funny though, the same people were completely ignoring the fact that a few minutes before he missed a gamewinner, he actually hit a clutch 3 which prevented Boston from winning and he forced OT.
Clifton
02-01-2013, 01:00 PM
Speak haters. How do you dispute this evidence?
Numbers are deceiving. Lebron is clutch, that's for sure. He's a winner, that's for sure too. But he's not more clutch than Durant.
His FG% is only higher in this situation because the way Lebron executes in the clutch is either to create a shot in the paint for himself or an open opportunity for someone else. Whereas Durant always takes the shot.
Lebron would take the shot more if he were a better jumpshooter, but his J is inconsistent and relies upon rhythm. I don't fear Lebron when he's open; I fear him when he's hit his last shot or two and is looking for his shot again.
kNicKz
02-01-2013, 01:27 PM
Lebron has been clutch his whole career.
Barring elbow injuries
2007 finals
2008 ecf
2011 finals
:coleman:
Haters don't like the cold hard facts and stats huh?
All you have are stats, when in reality it took the chosen one about a decade of choking every year to team up with 2 top 10 players to still lose and then finally win with the 2 best teams in the east having injured stars in a shortened season :roll:
Rysio
02-01-2013, 01:30 PM
Barring elbow injuries
2007 finals
2008 ecf
2011 finals
:coleman:
All you have are stats, when in reality it took the chosen one about a decade of choking every year to team up with 2 top 10 players to still lose and then finally win with the 2 best teams in the east having injured stars :roll:
repped. :applause:
alleykat
02-01-2013, 02:07 PM
Barring elbow injuries
2007 finals
2008 ecf
2011 finals
:coleman:
All you have are stats, when in reality it took the chosen one about a decade of choking every year to team up with 2 top 10 players to still lose and then finally win with the 2 best teams in the east having injured stars in a shortened season :roll:
he still won as the dominant player on the court....
so....
kNicKz
02-01-2013, 02:10 PM
He has lost a lot more than he has won in important games. That is not even up for debate...
Kblaze8855
02-01-2013, 03:48 PM
Lebron made 2 game winners his first playoff series, has made walkoff shots/game winners vs the Magic, Blazers, Hornets, Spurs, Warriors, Pistons,Bobcats, and others, made too many big late 3s to list(I can think of 3 just vs the Bulls), scored 30 in a row to win an elimination game, has had some of the most absurd playoff games in modern history vs the Magic and Celtics, and has been a key player on two gold medal teams, while winning an NBA title putting up 30/10/6 in the playoffs with games of 40/18/9 and 45/15/5 before going to and closing out the finals with back to back triple doubles to win finals mvp with Bosh missing half the playoffs and Wade having his worst playoffs since he was Lamar Odoms sidekick being mentored by Eddie Jones.
The idea of Lebron not being clutch is gonna be laughed at longterm.
Much like complaints of Kobe field goal percentage, Durant not being more than a scorer, or even that Dirk not being clutch one that persisted for 10 years.
Guys doing what they do stack too much on the positive side for anyone to be heard complaining about shit that doesnt matter and is rarely even true.
Lebron wasnt clutch for the first few years of stardom and merely had stumbles everyone but Bill Russell had since. Durant wasnt any more than a scorer before he became a good defender and rebounder with underrated passing. Kobes shooting percentage did hurt his team a litte....in the first half of 1998. Dirk did go out like a bitch vs the Warriors and come up short in 06 from the line in game 3.
But Lebron figured it out, Durant loves the game too much and works too hard to allow such glaring weaknesses, Kobe missed 1-2 shots too many on the way to winning 5 rings, and Dirk made shots when it counted vs the Thunder and didnt miss his FTs the second time he played the heat.
They saw weakness and overcame it. History wont even remember the weakness having been there.
Jerry West had a string of failures the internet today would clown him for losing in the finals like 7 times before winning.... while shooting 32%...and being like the 6th best player on the floor.
Nobody gives a shit he was 9-28 in game 6 as they won.
Hes Mr.Clutch.
Too much is expected of these guys. Cant be perfect and nobody can win em all. Only Russell could win more than he lost.
You wanna shine a light on the negative they all look bad.
But the positive shines too bright for most to see the negative.
They "Cant hear the critics talking over the applause" really.
The W drowns them out. I bet Karl Malone can still hear them though. Which I enjoy.
BrickingStar
02-01-2013, 04:34 PM
Barring elbow injuries
2007 finals
You're a ****ing retard for even listing this, you might as well list Melo's entire career if you're going to stretch the meaning of clutch this far
2008 ecf
2012 ECF
2011 finals
2012 Finals
:coleman:
All you have are stats, when in reality it took the chosen one about a decade of choking every year to team up with 2 top 10 players to still lose and then finally win with the 2 best teams in the east having injured stars in a shortened season :roll:
Fixed it for one of the most retarded knicks posters to ever exist.
BrickingStar
02-01-2013, 04:36 PM
Lebron made 2 game winners his first playoff series, has made walkoff shots/game winners vs the Magic, Blazers, Hornets, Spurs, Warriors, Pistons,Bobcats, and others, made too many big late 3s to list(I can think of 3 just vs the Bulls), scored 30 in a row to win an elimination game, has had some of the most absurd playoff games in modern history vs the Magic and Celtics, and has been a key player on two gold medal teams, while winning an NBA title putting up 30/10/6 in the playoffs with games of 40/18/9 and 45/15/5 before going to and closing out the finals with back to back triple doubles to win finals mvp with Bosh missing half the playoffs and Wade having his worst playoffs since he was Lamar Odoms sidekick being mentored by Eddie Jones.
The idea of Lebron not being clutch is gonna be laughed at longterm.
Much like complaints of Kobe field goal percentage, Durant not being more than a scorer, or even that Dirk not being clutch one that persisted for 10 years.
Guys doing what they do stack too much on the positive side for anyone to be heard complaining about shit that doesnt matter and is rarely even true.
Lebron wasnt clutch for the first few years of stardom and merely had stumbles everyone but Bill Russell had since. Durant wasnt any more than a scorer before he became a good defender and rebounder with underrated passing. Kobes shooting percentage did hurt his team a litte....in the first half of 1998. Dirk did go out like a bitch vs the Warriors and come up short in 06 from the line in game 3.
But Lebron figured it out, Durant loves the game too much and works too hard to allow such glaring weaknesses, Kobe missed 1-2 shots too many on the way to winning 5 rings, and Dirk made shots when it counted vs the Thunder and didnt miss his FTs the second time he played the heat.
They saw weakness and overcame it. History wont even remember the weakness having been there.
Jerry West had a string of failures the internet today would clown him for losing in the finals like 7 times before winning.... while shooting 32%...and being like the 6th best player on the floor.
Nobody gives a shit he was 9-28 in game 6 as they won.
Hes Mr.Clutch.
Too much is expected of these guys. Cant be perfect and nobody can win em all. Only Russell could win more than he lost.
You wanna shine a light on the negative they all look bad.
But the positive shines too bright for most to see the negative.
They "Cant hear the critics talking over the applause" really.
The W drowns them out. I bet Karl Malone can still hear them though. Which I enjoy.
good post :applause: You bring in the knowledge unlike retards like kNicKz who pretend to know basketball before last decade and claim Pistol pete > Wade
Remix
02-01-2013, 04:43 PM
THIS is classic BRON doing what he does best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhbM6uuCt74
Doranku
02-01-2013, 04:47 PM
http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg
wakencdukest
02-01-2013, 04:58 PM
First of all, you can't define just game tying and go-ahead shots as the sole factor for clutchness. What about when your team is down by 3 and you hit a 2 pointer? I guess that one gets left out? what if you hit 4 shots straight and the last one is to tie the game and send it into overtime? Is that last shot the only one that is clutch? What if your team is ahead and the other team closes a 15 point lead, and you are up by one point, and you hit a shot to put the game out of reach? Is that not a clutch shot? Nothing against LeBron, I think he's a great player, but These stats the OP came up with are misleading.
SpaceJammeR
02-01-2013, 07:11 PM
Lebron made 2 game winners his first playoff series, has made walkoff shots/game winners vs the Magic, Blazers, Hornets, Spurs, Warriors, Pistons,Bobcats, and others, made too many big late 3s to list(I can think of 3 just vs the Bulls), scored 30 in a row to win an elimination game, has had some of the most absurd playoff games in modern history vs the Magic and Celtics, and has been a key player on two gold medal teams, while winning an NBA title putting up 30/10/6 in the playoffs with games of 40/18/9 and 45/15/5 before going to and closing out the finals with back to back triple doubles to win finals mvp with Bosh missing half the playoffs and Wade having his worst playoffs since he was Lamar Odoms sidekick being mentored by Eddie Jones.
The idea of Lebron not being clutch is gonna be laughed at longterm.
Much like complaints of Kobe field goal percentage, Durant not being more than a scorer, or even that Dirk not being clutch one that persisted for 10 years.
Guys doing what they do stack too much on the positive side for anyone to be heard complaining about shit that doesnt matter and is rarely even true.
Lebron wasnt clutch for the first few years of stardom and merely had stumbles everyone but Bill Russell had since. Durant wasnt any more than a scorer before he became a good defender and rebounder with underrated passing. Kobes shooting percentage did hurt his team a litte....in the first half of 1998. Dirk did go out like a bitch vs the Warriors and come up short in 06 from the line in game 3.
But Lebron figured it out, Durant loves the game too much and works too hard to allow such glaring weaknesses, Kobe missed 1-2 shots too many on the way to winning 5 rings, and Dirk made shots when it counted vs the Thunder and didnt miss his FTs the second time he played the heat.
They saw weakness and overcame it. History wont even remember the weakness having been there.
Jerry West had a string of failures the internet today would clown him for losing in the finals like 7 times before winning.... while shooting 32%...and being like the 6th best player on the floor.
Nobody gives a shit he was 9-28 in game 6 as they won.
Hes Mr.Clutch.
Too much is expected of these guys. Cant be perfect and nobody can win em all. Only Russell could win more than he lost.
You wanna shine a light on the negative they all look bad.
But the positive shines too bright for most to see the negative.
They "Cant hear the critics talking over the applause" really.
The W drowns them out. I bet Karl Malone can still hear them though. Which I enjoy.
lebron haters be like:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Mr. Jabbar
02-01-2013, 07:27 PM
http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg
ether
maybeshewill13
02-01-2013, 07:37 PM
ether
http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg
Ether
Mrofir
02-01-2013, 10:05 PM
http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg
Ether
lol, and there is only one other intelligent post in this entire thread. Thanks KBlaze.
http://www.hiphopstan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Lebron-James-Stare.jpg
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