View Full Version : Chris Kyle dead.....
tomtucker
02-04-2013, 04:32 AM
warhero....survied the enemy, killed back in the states by someone he was trying to help............:( ....:facepalm
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle
Bucket_Nakedz
02-04-2013, 04:47 AM
at a shooting range? rip to the man, but i wanna know if it was a real cowboy shootout. ain't surprised that they're from texas.
So trained and armed men can be shot by people who are in legal possession of a gun.
senelcoolidge
02-04-2013, 05:22 AM
R.I.P. Sad news. The guy that killed him was an ex marine with mental issues. Probably didn't like Kyle.
Burgz V2
02-04-2013, 06:31 AM
definitely tragic but I'm not sure I'd ever call him a "hero".
maybe the crazy guy got provoked, nobody knows what went down other than the crazy guy.
miller-time
02-04-2013, 06:50 AM
"Kyle had reportedly taken Routh to the gun range in an effort to help him with his PTSD."
Umm what? Was that really a good idea?
tomtucker
02-04-2013, 07:43 AM
this is so stupid....The devil of ramadi....killed back home........what do you think the insurgents he fought against will do when they hear this.........:facepalm .....laugh their asses off and say "we were right all along, america stink"
"Kyle had reportedly taken Routh to the gun range in an effort to help him with his PTSD."
Umm what? Was that really a good idea?
reminds me of an NCIS episode
Got bullet wounded twice, survived six IED attacks, got shot at millions of times while killing 160++ people (hell even the rodeo he was doing as a kid was somewhat dangerous breaking his arm and all that).... nothing, but going back home chilling and helping some guy out... instant death... considering the near death / begging for death experiences he had its almost as stupid as what happened to Steve Irwin
kNicKz
02-04-2013, 09:07 AM
wow, R.I.P.
this man did and witnessed horrible things all for our comfort and security
Rest in Peace Chris Kyle
Joshumitsu
02-04-2013, 09:24 AM
"Kyle had reportedly taken Routh to the gun range in an effort to help him with his PTSD."
Umm what? Was that really a good idea?
Lots of PTSD ridden vets go to the range, actually.
From what I gather, the murders might've stemmed from differences in personality with PTSD as the catalyst for conflict. Chris was kind of a macho-confrontational Type A kind of guy. The murderer appeared to have had drinking problems (had a DWI on record) and a resistant to change type of behavior. A kind of Travis Bickle type personality.
Likewise, Chris had drinking problems at one point and probably felt he could help the guy out through personal experience. But because of a clash of personality types or perhaps due to Kyle's fame and social stature, tensions might've escalated between the two. Routh could've been seeking attention and/or resisting any conflict that challenged his self-image. Thus, killing Kyle resolved these issues and gave Routh the quick fix he needed.
These type of behavioral patterns remain prevalent in guys like this who appear to lash out impulsively.
zizozain
02-04-2013, 10:33 AM
Karma IS a bitch
OP is a pathetic ******* who sucks the Military Industrial Complex's ****.
Chris Kyle was neither hero nor villain; he was a puppet who did an excellent job killing innocent people who did absolutely NOTHING to him. Anyone who still thinks the Iraq war was some sort of noble endeavor to "spread freedom" is dumber than a box of rocks.
c/p
tomtucker
02-04-2013, 10:33 AM
Got bullet wounded twice, survived six IED attacks, got shot at millions of times while killing 160++ people (hell even the rodeo he was doing as a kid was somewhat dangerous breaking his arm and all that).... nothing, but going back home chilling and helping some guy out... instant death... considering the near death / begging for death experiences he had its almost as stupid as what happened to Steve Irwin
true............some "Final Destination" shit here
tomtucker
02-04-2013, 10:46 AM
Karma IS a bitch
OP is a pathetic ******* who sucks the Military Industrial Complex's ****.
Chris Kyle was neither hero nor villain; he was a puppet who did an excellent job killing innocent people who did absolutely NOTHING to him. Anyone who still thinks the Iraq war was some sort of noble endeavor to "spread freedom" is dumber than a box of rocks.
c/p
no, the iraq war was stupid, we all know that.........but when the enemy gives you nicknames, then it means you are speciel.......
.
btw, on wiki it says the sniper with mosts kills is a finnish soldier in the WW2 era.......504 soviet soldiers killed........insane
rezznor
02-04-2013, 10:50 AM
"Kyle had reportedly taken Routh to the gun range in an effort to help him with his PTSD."
Umm what? Was that really a good idea?
should have taken him bowling instead
rezznor
02-04-2013, 10:51 AM
warhero....survied the enemy, killed back in the states by someone he was trying to help............:( ....:facepalm
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle
this never would have happened if Kyle had a gun! o wait...
jamal99
02-04-2013, 11:20 AM
War hero? Good one...
Killing people for oil and spreading "democracy" in their countries now makes you a war hero, very nice...
I wouldnt consider this guy a hero either. All he did was kill people because it furthered the not so noble agenda of his superiors.
bmulls
02-04-2013, 12:51 PM
I wouldnt consider this guy a hero either. All he did was kill people because it furthered the not so noble agenda of his superiors.
Shut the fck up retard. This guy survived 2 bullet wounds and 6 IEDs, killed hundreds of terrorists and saved hundreds if not thousands of American lives. He came back home and was killed trying to help a fellow veteran suffering from PTSD. He is the very definition of a hero. How embarrassing of you to sit there behind your computer and criticize when he accomplished more in his brief life than you ever will. I hope you realize what a pathetic insignificant phagg0t you are.
kNicKz
02-04-2013, 12:53 PM
War hero? Good one...
Killing people for oil and spreading "democracy" in their countries now makes you a war hero, very nice...
http://firstfriday.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/liberal_crap.jpg
Rasheed1
02-04-2013, 12:59 PM
live by the gun....die by the gun...
TheMan
02-04-2013, 01:01 PM
Shut the fck up retard. This guy survived 2 bullet wounds and 6 IEDs, killed hundreds of terrorists and saved hundreds if not thousands of American lives. He came back home and was killed trying to help a fellow veteran suffering from PTSD. He is the very definition of a hero. How embarrassing of you to sit there behind your computer and criticize when he accomplished more in his brief life than you ever will. I hope you realize what a pathetic insignificant phagg0t you are.
This nikka salty:oldlol:
And this Kyle dude is far from a hero.
Shut the fck up retard. This guy survived 2 bullet wounds and 6 IEDs, killed hundreds of terrorists and saved hundreds if not thousands of American lives. He came back home and was killed trying to help a fellow veteran suffering from PTSD. He is the very definition of a hero. How embarrassing of you to sit there behind your computer and criticize when he accomplished more in his brief life than you ever will. I hope you realize what a pathetic insignificant phagg0t you are.
Not surprised to get this reaction from someone like you who is the typical brainwashed american. Listen I am not badmouthing the guy, who knows what his intentions were. It is very likely that he signed up for the military to try and make a difference and perhaps he went to war to fight for his values. Ultimately though, someone who is a killing machine on the behalf of politicians in washington who want to maintain their power does not qualify for a hero in my eyes. A hero is someone who spreads good in the world, not someone who claims to have killed 255 people and is proud of that fact.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:07 PM
Karma IS a bitch
OP is a pathetic ******* who sucks the Military Industrial Complex's ****.
Chris Kyle was neither hero nor villain; he was a puppet who did an excellent job killing innocent people who did absolutely NOTHING to him. Anyone who still thinks the Iraq war was some sort of noble endeavor to "spread freedom" is dumber than a box of rocks.
c/p
Oh here we go......
- So when you serve your country ( as everyman should do) you get to make the rules up as you go??....you only follow command when it fits in your moral compass???....
" I will serve my country.....only if it fits my sunshine and rainbows morals.....oh no!...killing innocent people??...I quit......sunshine and rainbows...sunshine and rainbows!!"
- Real life doesn't work that way...He served his country ( meaning he doesn't get a chance to make the rules...he just has to follow orders unquestioned and do evrything in his power to make sure the guys next to him stay alive and the mission get done)....you serve the country and your contry men...not yourself!
- If the Higher ups give you a order....you do it......you can't sit around and question morals or innocence.......nothing wll ever get done.....and our country would not exist...if that was how combat worked.
( I realize I am most likely talking to someone who will live a long boring life....and likes to talk bad about others who actually scrifice for something they believed in..... ahead.....a real men won't listen to a timid soul who knows not victory or defeat.)
bmulls
02-04-2013, 01:12 PM
Not surprised to get this reaction from someone like you who is the typical brainwashed american. Listen I am not badmouthing the guy, who knows what his intentions were. It is very likely that he signed up for the military to try and make a difference and perhaps he went to war to fight for his values. Ultimately though, someone who is a killing machine on the behalf of politicians in washington who want to maintain their power does not qualify for a hero in my eyes. A hero is someone who spreads good in the world, not someone who claims to have killed 255 people and is proud of that fact.
He has never said he's proud of killing people, he has always said he is proud of the American lives he saved and he feels no guilt because he knows what he did was the right thing.
Whether or not you agree with the war itself is irrelevant. He served with a bravery and selflessness which he carried back into civilian life. He died trying to help a fellow veteran overcome a tragic mental illness. That is why he is a hero.
The fact that you and the rest of the ISH liberal crew are making tasteless comments about gun control in this thread is sad. You should all be embarrassed.
Oh here we go......
- So when you serve your country ( as everyman should do) you get to make the rules up as you go??....you only follow command when it fits in your moral compass???....
" I will serve my country.....only if it fits my sunshine and rainbows morals.....oh no!...killing innocent people??...I quit......sunshine and rainbows...sunshine and rainbows!!"
- Real life doesn't work that way...He served his country ( meaning he doesn't get a chance to make the rules...he just has to follow orders unquestioned and do evrything in his power to make sure the guys next to him stay alive and the mission get done)....you serve the country and your contry men...not yourself!
- If the Higher ups give you a order....you do it......you can't sit around and question morals or innocence.......nothing wll ever get done.....and our country would not exist...if that was how combat worked.
( I realize I am most likely talking to someone who will live a long boring life....and likes to talk bad about others who actually scrifice for something they believed in..... ahead.....a real men won't listen to a timid soul who knows not victory or defeat.)
Zizozain was a bit harsh but he is actually right. No one doubts that this guy was a good soldier and no one is saying that he didnt make sacrifices to try and do what he thought was right. The point is that the agenda he was serving is some grimy political bullshit that ultimately brought about no good.
Go talk to an iraqi and see what they have to say about the bush regime that "brought freedom" to their country. All of the men he killed were most likely young men trying to fight for their country when they got invaded by a superpower who claims to be on the morally correct side yet doesnt hesitate to dirty its hands to protect any of its interests. Not to mention the civilian casualties and all of the damage done to the country. I know first hand how grimy your countries politics are
bmulls
02-04-2013, 01:15 PM
( I realize I am most likely talking to someone who will live a long boring life....and likes to talk bad about others who actually scrifice for something they believed in..... ahead.....a real men won't listen to a timid soul who knows not victory or defeat.)
Exactly. Bunch of cowards criticizing behind a computer screen when we all know they'd never say these things to his face, let alone do something worthy of note. Beta as fck.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:15 PM
Not surprised to get this reaction from someone like you who is the typical brainwashed american. Listen I am not badmouthing the guy, who knows what his intentions were. It is very likely that he signed up for the military to try and make a difference and perhaps he went to war to fight for his values. Ultimately though, someone who is a killing machine on the behalf of politicians in washington who want to maintain their power does not qualify for a hero in my eyes. A hero is someone who spreads good in the world, not someone who claims to have killed 255 people and is proud of that fact.
News flash retard!.....
- when you are a Navy Seal Sniper....you train all day to Kill.....That's the whole point!
- Why shouldn't he proud of what he trained his life to do.....Should a coach be proud of his team winning?.....or a player who trains to score?...he hould be proud.
- a Hero is somone who achieves greatness through will......save your sunshine and rainbows for the civillians....it has no place in combat.
- without the Millitary ....you wouldn't have your stupid Morals.
He has never said he's proud of killing people, he has always said he is proud of the American lives he saved and he feels no guilt because he knows what he did was the right thing.
Whether or not you agree with the war itself is irrelevant. He served with a bravery and selflessness which he carried back into civilian life. He died trying to help a fellow veteran overcome a tragic mental illness. That is why he is a hero.
The fact that you and the rest of the ISH liberal crew are making tasteless comments about gun control in this thread is sad. You should all be embarrassed.
I can respect someone who is man enough to sacrifice for something he believes in but your anger should be directed towards your government who wasted his services. Why do you think wealthy and succesful politicians dont want their kids serving, because they know all of these recent wars have been bullshit.
News flash retard!.....
- when you are a Navy Seal Sniper....you train all day to Kill.....That's the whole point!
- Why shouldn't he proud of what he trained his life to do.....Should a coach be proud of his team winning?.....or a player who trains to score?...he hould be proud.
- a Hero is somone who achieves greatness through will......save your sunshine and rainbows for the civillians....it has no place in combat.
- without the Millitary ....you wouldn't have your stupid Morals.
The point I am making is that this n*gga is not a hero. The american military is not some disadvantaged victim who is nobly fighting to protect freedom from evil people.
Exactly. Bunch of cowards criticizing behind a computer screen when we all know they'd never say these things to his face, let alone do something worthy of note. Beta as fck.
I can confidently say that you are an idiot.
bmulls
02-04-2013, 01:22 PM
I can confidently say that you are an idiot.
Good one. Enjoy being a pseudo-intellectual loser.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:24 PM
Zizozain was a bit harsh but he is actually right. No one doubts that this guy was a good soldier and no one is saying that he didnt make sacrifices to try and do what he thought was right. The point is that the agenda he was serving is some grimy political bullshit that ultimately brought about no good.
Go talk to an iraqi and see what they have to say about the bush regime that "brought freedom" to their country. All of the men he killed were most likely young men trying to fight for their country when they got invaded by a superpower who claims to be on the morally correct side yet doesnt hesitate to dirty its hands to protect any of its interests. Not to mention the civilian casualties and all of the damage done to the country. I know first hand how grimy your countries politics are
By that theory...No one should ever go to War.
- why did young Men join Saddam Hussein's army???...why did they follow equally corrupt Polliticians?
why did they follow him attacking the Kurds?....then Kuwait?....
why did the Japanese Join the Germans?......why did the Vikings attack Rome?......why did the Nazi Party declare war?.....Why did the Ghengis have so many followers?.....
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:30 PM
The point I am making is that this n*gga is not a hero. The american military is not some disadvantaged victim who is nobly fighting to protect freedom from evil people.
- How is he not a hero?.....he applied himself to become one of the greatest snipers in history?...In the realest Game ever...WAR.
- You can't change the rules of WAR....just because you ( 1 person) doesn't believe he should follow orders.
- Considering he sercved his country ( even though he may or may not have agreed with hs politicians)....he did his job the best he could ( even though it took a grea toll on him) and helped his elow Brothers....
he is a Hero....to everyman....American or not
Good one. Enjoy being a pseudo-intellectual loser.
Dont know where you got pseduo-intellectual from but bmulls for real you need to stop believing everything your govt tells you. Your government wants to paint soldiers as heros because they need to do that to keep the ball rolling. Your politicians dont truly give a fcuk about individual soldiers, when cheney was lining his wallet through halliburton I would bet a million dollars he wouldnt want any of his close family serving.
Why do you think so many countries in the world dislike america? Why do you think so many americans go to war and come back disillusioned about the whole thing? Its because they realize there is no such thing as the good guys vs the bad guys and they realize how bullshit the whole thing is.
By that theory...No one should ever go to War.
- why did young Men join Saddam Hussein's army???...why did they follow equally corrupt Polliticians?
why did they follow him attacking the Kurds?....then Kuwait?....
why did the Japanese Join the Germans?......why did the Vikings attack Rome?......why did the Nazi Party declare war?.....Why did the Ghengis have so many followers?.....
The other day my neighbour saved someone from drowning, that right there is a hero. A doctor who actually cares for the health of his patients, that right there is a hero. Chris kyle is a hero in the sense that he protected those that he served with but in the grand scheme of things the war itself was not heroic thus I am hesistant to paint a soldier who did so much damage in that war as a hero
tomtucker
02-04-2013, 01:40 PM
right, we know that war was filled with lies....no WMD and so on.......but all wars since the dawn of time are filled with lies and are pointless, there has ever been a good war......war is terrible........but this guy has probably saved many allied soldiers lives......so therefore he is a hero......like there have been heroes in all wars
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:41 PM
Dont know where you got pseduo-intellectual from but bmulls for real you need to stop believing everything your govt tells you. Your government wants to paint soldiers as heros because they need to do that to keep the ball rolling. Your politicians dont truly give a fcuk about individual soldiers, when cheney was lining his wallet through halliburton I would bet a million dollars he wouldnt want any of his close family serving.
Why do you think so many countries in the world dislike america? Why do you think so many americans go to war and come back disillusioned about the whole thing? Its because they realize there is no such thing as the good guys vs the bad guys and they realize how bullshit the whole thing is.
Why do you cling on to this?
We already know politicians are not always pure....:confusedshrug:
That is not some insightful Light that we are blinded too.....
We don't Fight for the politicians....
Following orders ( good or Bad) is a sacrifice you have to take.....but that's what makes any Millitary/Country strong.
Why do you cling on to this?
We already know politicians are not always pure....:confusedshrug:
That is not some insightful Light that we are blinded too.....
We don't Fight for the politicians....
Following orders ( good or Bad) is a sacrifice you have to take.....but that's what makes any Millitary/Country strong.
There is nothing being clung to and the point is simple. Just think for yourself and see from other perspectives. "Fighting for freedom" "killing the terrorists" and "soldier= hero" are all simplistic and misaligned with the truth.
Burgz V2
02-04-2013, 01:48 PM
Shut the fck up retard. This guy survived 2 bullet wounds and 6 IEDs, killed hundreds of terrorists and saved hundreds if not thousands of American lives. He came back home and was killed trying to help a fellow veteran suffering from PTSD. He is the very definition of a hero. How embarrassing of you to sit there behind your computer and criticize when he accomplished more in his brief life than you ever will. I hope you realize what a pathetic insignificant phagg0t you are.
give me a f***ing break.
Terrorists? What terrorists do you speak of? Al-Qaieda? Taliban? WIthout the US governments funding, they would not exist. They were funded by YOUR government in order to fight the Soviets.
Many people would not be quick to applaud those for a problem they created themselves. Sure, they coordinated 9/11, but not a single person involved in 9/11 was Iraqi or Afghani. Those wars were ideological wars against regimes supposedly in possession of WMDs (false) and supposedly threatened the "democracy" of the United States.
be a good lamb and gobble this s*** up, but I for one will never accept the murder of hundreds of thousands of people over the span of 20 years as "heroic". They call the Arab world barbaric, but who are the real barbarians here.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:48 PM
The other day my neighbour saved someone from drowning, that right there is a hero. A doctor who actually cares for the health of his patients, that right there is a hero. Chris kyle is a hero in the sense that he protected those that he served with but in the grand scheme of things the war itself was not heroic thus I am hesistant to paint a soldier who did so much damage in that war as a hero
- He may not have pulled someone from a Pool...but he Learned how to swim in an Ocean full of Sharks ( called combat)..and not only did he swim.....he completed his swim better then most....and along the way he taught others how to survive in the Ocean full of Sharks.....so they too would not drown.
- only a selfish person would not call him a hero....
- He may not have pulled someone from a Pool...but he Learned how to swim in an Ocean full of Sharks ( called combat)..and not only did he swim.....he completed his swim better then most....and along the way he taught others how to survive in the Ocean full of Sharks.....so they too would not drown.
- only a selfish person would not call him a hero....
You are not getting the point. It has nothing to with being a good soldier.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:53 PM
give me a f***ing break.
Terrorists? What terrorists do you speak of? Al-Qaieda? Taliban? WIthout the US governments funding, they would not exist. They were funded by YOUR government in order to fight the Soviets.
Many people would not be quick to applaud those for a problem they created themselves. Sure, they coordinated 9/11, but not a single person involved in 9/11 was Iraqi or Afghani. Those wars were ideological wars against regimes supposedly in possession of WMDs (false) and supposedly threatened the "democracy" of the United States.
be a good lamb and gobble this s*** up, but I for one will never accept the murder of hundreds of thousands of people over the span of 20 years as "heroic". They call the Arab world barbaric, but who are the real barbarians here.[/
- You don't seem to mind using Barbarian technology....posting on a barbarian website.....on the interwebz wich happened to be invented by Barbarians...
- all I know is someone bombed us again....and if that happenes....someone is gonna get merked.....look what happened to Japan.
- Thats what makes America...good or bad...it has to be that way
bmulls
02-04-2013, 01:55 PM
Dont know where you got pseduo-intellectual from but bmulls for real you need to stop believing everything your govt tells you. Your government wants to paint soldiers as heros because they need to do that to keep the ball rolling. Your politicians dont truly give a fcuk about individual soldiers, when cheney was lining his wallet through halliburton I would bet a million dollars he wouldnt want any of his close family serving.
Why do you think so many countries in the world dislike america? Why do you think so many americans go to war and come back disillusioned about the whole thing? Its because they realize there is no such thing as the good guys vs the bad guys and they realize how bullshit the whole thing is.
:roll:
Hilarious how you think you've got it all figured out and we Americans are just naive 'Merica loving pawns.
The US isn't doing anything different than the UK, Spain, France, Rome and every other global empire has done throughout history. Do you not realize the only reason your country exists is because of England's colonialism?
"So many countries that dislike America" would be doing the exact same thing if they were in the US' position.
Ironic how you recognize that there are no good guys vs. bad guys yet you still fail to see the forest for the trees.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 01:55 PM
You are not getting the point. It has nothing to with being a good soldier.
of course it doesn't...he could have applied himself to be a great swimming instructor....or a teacher....or a great doctor....
point bieng....he served his country and was great at it.
:roll:
Hilarious how you think you've got it all figured out and we Americans are just naive 'Merica loving pawns.
The US isn't doing anything different than the UK, Spain, France, Rome and every other global empire has done throughout history. Do you not realize the only reason your country exists is because of England's colonialism?
"So many countries that dislike America" would be doing the exact same thing if they were in the US' position.
Ironic how you recognize that there are no good guys vs. bad guys yet you still fail to see the forest for the trees.
I know your exact type and trust me one day you will also look back on your current perspective and see yourself as naive.
bmulls
02-04-2013, 01:57 PM
give me a f***ing break.
Terrorists? What terrorists do you speak of? Al-Qaieda? Taliban? WIthout the US governments funding, they would not exist. They were funded by YOUR government in order to fight the Soviets.
Many people would not be quick to applaud those for a problem they created themselves. Sure, they coordinated 9/11, but not a single person involved in 9/11 was Iraqi or Afghani. Those wars were ideological wars against regimes supposedly in possession of WMDs (false) and supposedly threatened the "democracy" of the United States.
be a good lamb and gobble this s*** up, but I for one will never accept the murder of hundreds of thousands of people over the span of 20 years as "heroic". They call the Arab world barbaric, but who are the real barbarians here.
Move to Iran and live there for a year. Come back and tell me about barbarians.
Of course you would never do anything of the sort, because you like your comfy life and would never actually back up anything you have to say. You'd rather sit at your computer and criticize than do something about it.
bmulls
02-04-2013, 01:58 PM
I know your exact type and trust me one day you will also look back on your current perspective and see yourself as naive.
I used to be your type when I was a 20 year old know-it-all college student. You'll grow out of it.
of course it doesn't...he could have applied himself to be a great swimming instructor....or a teacher....or a great doctor....
point bieng....he served his country and was great at it.
Maybe he was a man of character who strived to uphold his values but him being a good sniper is not reason enough for me to call him a hero.
I used to be your type when I was a 20 year old know-it-all college student. You'll grow out of it.
If we were talking in person you would know that there is no arrogance and would know that I am not a know it all, the reason I said that is because you seemed to have the narrative of good vs evil which we all know is just not true.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 02:02 PM
I know your exact type and trust me one day you will also look back on your current perspective and see yourself as naive.
Yes because as you get older....everyone under stands it's all sunshine and rainbows..
- BULLSH!T.....talk to most old folks...especially the ones who seen combat...
They are the most patriotic hard core MF's out there....They understand the rules better then anyone...
kill or be killed....
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 02:03 PM
Maybe he was a man of character who strived to uphold his values but him being a good sniper is not reason enough for me to call him a hero.
Nor is it for me....It's his actions that made him a hero..
Yes because as you get older....everyone under stands it's all sunshine and rainbows..
- BULLSH!T.....talk to most old folks...especially the ones who seen combat...
They are the most patriotic hard core MF's out there....They understand the rules better then anyone...
kill or be killed....
Stop posting stupid glamorized shit about war. "The realest game of all" "swim with the sharks" " know the rules: kill or be killed." Shut the fcuk up already.
You know that modern war is not some honourable shit fought on equal footing right?
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 02:15 PM
Stop posting stupid glamorized shit about war. "The realest game of all" "swim with the sharks" " know the rules: kill or be killed." Shut the fcuk up already.
You know that modern war is not some honourable shit fought on equal footing right?
- Have you served in the Military?...Have you been in combat?.....How the **** would you know what it's like?...
- Don't get upset because some people took an oath to serve thier country...I take honor in my fellow brothers who faught side by side....I glamorize the real....
- "Modern war" is the same thing as two cave men battling over a Mammoth meat......those who believe the most ....those who believe the longest will win
save your sidewalk Phsychology....unless you served you have no right to talk
johndeeregreen
02-04-2013, 02:16 PM
Not that anyone cares, but my two cents:
These guys don't pick when and where they fight. Though many of you will look down their noses at these guys for being "naive," a lot of them join truly believing that they are trying to make their country safer and the world a better place. You may find those ideals to be ignorant or misguided, that's your prerogative, but you should also respect people who think differently than you in that regard.
To the topic at hand, whether or not you feel the war was justified or not, to me, is irrelevant. I've never been in combat, but have read many, many accounts from guys who served in some of the US' most high-profile foreign policy blunders, from Vietnam to Iraq, and the common thread is that these guys are out there fighting for each other. They didn't choose to go into these shitholes for unclear reasons with ambiguous objectives; so what they do is, day to day, do their best to get by with themselves and their buddies in one piece. That's how I regard these guys; to me, they aren't heroes because they killed X amount of Iraqis, they are heroes because they fought to bring one another home intact. A lot of these guys get back and speak out against the war, against what they were subjected to, but to a man they all fought as hard as they could when they were in the shit. Why? Certainly not to further their country's agenda, but for the guy on either side of them. And that's something that you can't take away from them, regardless of your politics.
Just because guys who served in WWII had a "cause" and guys in Iraq didn't shouldn't diminish what they have been through in service of the country. You want to hate on the dickless politicians that constantly misuse the military for their own personal agendas, absolutely, I'm first in line. But I think it's silly to dismiss veterans of unpopular wars because of circumstances outside their control.
Burgz V2
02-04-2013, 02:23 PM
Move to Iran and live there for a year. Come back and tell me about barbarians.
Of course you would never do anything of the sort, because you like your comfy life and would never actually back up anything you have to say. You'd rather sit at your computer and criticize than do something about it.
What does Iran have to do with this? This comment makes no sense. Conflating Iran's extremism across the whole middle east proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge of the actual situation in the middle east.
Further, I was born in Sudan, lived in Qatar and Bahrain, and I was living in Kuwait when the Gulf War started, yet you assume I have no right to criticize? Maybe if you heard the sound of bombs dropping outside your a mile from your door you would change you tune. Yet again, you claim I only sit at my computer and criticize? How very ironic.
bmulls
02-04-2013, 02:24 PM
If we were talking in person you would know that there is no arrogance and would know that I am not a know it all, the reason I said that is because you seemed to have the narrative of good vs evil which we all know is just not true.
Which part of this leads you to think I believe in a "good vs. evil" narrative?
:roll:
Hilarious how you think you've got it all figured out and we Americans are just naive 'Merica loving pawns.
The US isn't doing anything different than the UK, Spain, France, Rome and every other global empire has done throughout history. Do you not realize the only reason your country exists is because of England's colonialism?
"So many countries that dislike America" would be doing the exact same thing if they were in the US' position.
Ironic how you recognize that there are no good guys vs. bad guys yet you still fail to see the forest for the trees.
Especially re-read the last sentence.
You dislike the United States because you think our actions are immoral and our wars are unjustified. At the same time you think Americans are stupid because they don't realize there is no objective "good guys" or "bad guys".
Do you not see the irony? You're hating the player and the game.
I support the United States because I am a citizen and I appreciate all the freedoms and comforts afforded to me. I also understand the United States has to take care of it's own interests first and foremost. I don't give a shit if other countries "dislike" the US, because I know they would be doing the exact same things if they were in the US' position.
Keep thinking Americans are gullible sheep if it helps you feel better about yourself. There's a reason we lead the world in economy, science, technology, space travel, military and university. There's a reason you watch American TV shows and movies, eat at McDonald's, listen to American music. Our culture is exported all over the world. The only reason we are having this discussion on this board is because of the American made NBA.
- Have you served in the Military?...Have you been in combat?.....How the **** would you know what it's like?...
- Don't get upset because some people took an oath to serve thier country...I take honor in my fellow brothers who faught side by side....I glamorize the real....
- "Modern war" is the same thing as two cave men battling over a Mammoth meat......those who believe the most ....those who believe the longest will win
save your sidewalk Phsychology....unless you served you have no right to talk
You are quite the clown. You are talking about war like it is a football game except in this case one team has drones flying overhead and has bombers bombing the shit out of everything including civilians.
Listen, no one is talking shit about your military that you love, the point is that serving in the military in and of itself does not make one a hero. Is an iraqi sniper who killed 255 american soldiers a hero? He is protecting his brothers in arms and defending his homeland from the powerhungry invading superpower that is also taking advantage of his lands resources. He must be a hero right?
Is He Ill
02-04-2013, 02:35 PM
- Have you served in the Military?...Have you been in combat?.....How the **** would you know what it's like?...
- Don't get upset because some people took an oath to serve thier country...I take honor in my fellow brothers who faught side by side....I glamorize the real....
- "Modern war" is the same thing as two cave men battling over a Mammoth meat......those who believe the most ....those who believe the longest will win
save your sidewalk Phsychology....unless you served you have no right to talk
:roll: Yeah, those two things are totally the same. It's all about believing.
Which part of this leads you to think I believe in a "good vs. evil" narrative?
Especially re-read the last sentence.
You dislike the United States because you think our actions are immoral and our wars are unjustified. At the same time you think Americans are stupid because they don't realize there is no objective "good guys" or "bad guys".
Do you not see the irony? You're hating the player and the game.
I support the United States because I am a citizen and I appreciate all the freedoms and comforts afforded to me. I also understand the United States has to take care of it's own interests first and foremost. I don't give a shit if other countries "dislike" the US, because I know they would be doing the exact same things if they were in the US' position.
Keep thinking Americans are gullible sheep if it helps you feel better about yourself. There's a reason we lead the world in economy, science, technology, space travel, military and university. There's a reason you watch American TV shows and movies, eat at McDonald's, listen to American music. Our culture is exported all over the world. The only reason we are having this discussion on this board is because of the American made NBA.
I didnt read the post and you made some good points. I dont dislike america at all, I only disagree strongly with many of its government policies. The consititution's moral principles are very good but sadly in reality your country doesnt uphold them when it comes to protecting its interests. The american government meddles in the affairs of other countries and your politicians fcuk shit up all over the world.
I see why you would consider chris kyle a hero but by the same token you are also agreeing with the reason why the families of the Iraqi civilians whom your country killed consider your government to be the terrorists.
iamgine
02-04-2013, 02:37 PM
It's just a matter of a hero to who.
A robber could be a hero to his family because he was stealing medicine/food they couldn't afford.
Hittin_Shots
02-04-2013, 02:40 PM
It's just a matter of a hero to who.
A robber could be a hero to his family because he was stealing medicine/food they couldn't afford.
http://communicategood.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/carbon-rod.jpg
daily
02-04-2013, 02:47 PM
What does Iran have to do with this? This comment makes no sense. Conflating Iran's extremism across the whole middle east proves your ignorance and lack of knowledge of the actual situation in the middle east.
Further, I was born in Sudan, lived in Qatar and Bahrain, and I was living in Kuwait when the Gulf War started, yet you assume I have no right to criticize? Maybe if you heard the sound of bombs dropping outside your a mile from your door you would change you tune. Yet again, you claim I only sit at my computer and criticize? How very ironic.
Just to be clear. You were happier when it was Iraq occupying Kuwait instead of when the US drove Iraq out.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 02:57 PM
You are quite the clown. You are talking about war like it is a football game except in this case one team has drones flying overhead and has bombers bombing the shit out of everything including civilians.
Listen, no one is talking shit about your military that you love, the point is that serving in the military in and of itself does not make one a hero. Is an iraqi sniper who killed 255 american soldiers a hero? He is protecting his brothers in arms and defending his homeland from the powerhungry invading superpower that is also taking advantage of his lands resources. He must be a hero right?
I said why shouldn't he proud of his service.....His path?.....His Job was to Kill people....he spent over a decade of training in the Military....why shouldn't he proud of something he worked hard at?...
- again...have you ever served in the Military?...what gives you the knowledge to speak?...you don't understand the mindset....or the lifestyle..
honestly you haven't even earned the right to give yo 00.02$
- I referenced a sport....Players practice thier whole life to throw a ball.....or tackle someone......wouldn't they want to play in a real game?...shouldn't they be proud when they tackle?..or score a touchdown?.....same thing except on a whole different level.
- If an Iraqi sniper sniped 255 people....he damn well be a hero to his countrymen.....or at least his fellow Snipers.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 02:59 PM
:roll: Yeah, those two things are totally the same. It's all about believing.
please explain..If there is no belief in something ( survival....or protecting yourself/family/country /anything)..waht's the point of fighting???
Burgz V2
02-04-2013, 03:00 PM
Just to be clear. You were happier when it was Iraq occupying Kuwait instead of when the US drove Iraq out.
i am simply responding to his accusation that I criticize from the comfort of my computer chair. Nowhere in my comment do I even remotely insinuate such a sentiment. If you care enough to respond then you should at least show enough care to understand what context the comment was made. I think that's fair enough dont you?
I said why shouldn't he proud of his service.....His path?.....His Job was to Kill people....he spent over a decade of training in the Military....why shouldn't he proud of something he worked hard at?...
- again...have you ever served in the Military?...what gives you the knowledge to speak?...you don't understand the mindset....or the lifestyle..
honestly you haven't even earned the right to give yo 00.02$
- I referenced a sport....Players practice thier whole life to throw a ball.....or tackle someone......wouldn't they want to play in a real game?...shouldn't they be proud when they tackle?..or score a touchdown?.....same thing except on a whole different level.
- If an Iraqi sniper sniped 255 people....he damn well be a hero to his countrymen.....or at least his fellow Snipers.
Your entire logic is that if someone is succesful at something then he is a hero. Hitler was very succesful at genocide does that mean he is a hero?
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 03:16 PM
Your entire logic is that if someone is succesful at something then he is a hero. Hitler was very succesful at genocide does that mean he is a hero?
- Your entire Logic is....Only a person who does a certain moral act that brings some imaginary " Good" to the universe ( that you yourself deems to fit the criteria of Good vs EVIL or Good vs Not good)....any person who doesn't fit your criteria is not a hero...
- That's the same Mindset Hitler had!!!
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 03:17 PM
a hero is someone who does something that is universally good, not someone who is becomes skilled at something
I thought a doctor who helps people is a Hero to you.....did he all of a sudden wake up and become a Doctor one day?
a hero is someone who does something that is universally good, not someone who becomes skilled at something
I thought a doctor who helps people is a Hero to you.....did he all of a sudden wake up and become a Doctor one day?
It is not the fact that an individual is skilled that makes them a hero. According to your logic everyone who was ever very skilled at something is automatically a hero. That is ridiculous.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 03:26 PM
The other day my neighbour saved someone from drowning, that right there is a hero. A doctor who actually cares for the health of his patients, that right there is a hero. Chris kyle is a hero in the sense that he protected those that he served with but in the grand scheme of things the war itself was not heroic thus I am hesistant to paint a soldier who did so much damage in that war as a hero
a Doctor is nearly the same thing as a soldier....especially in the context you are using it.
A) They have to work hard to aquire the necassary skill....to become or work in the Healthcare industury.
B) They have to follow strict guidelines..if they don't , extreme punishment and loss of thier license.
C) Some believe in what they do actually helps people.....and many times it does.....sometimes it does not....( acctually Many times it does not...especially in the Obstetrician or vaccination fields)
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 03:28 PM
he was a puppet who did an excellent job killing innocent people who did absolutely NOTHING to him.
You have a strange sense of innocent.
As for doing nothing to him, I'm sure he detonated those IEDs himself so he would have a good story to tell.
Whatever the reasons that brought us to Iraq, once the war got started, there was some horrible barbaric shit going on in that country. Barbaric shit that often did happen to innocent people (http://www.iraqwarlogs.com/2010/10/25/mutilated-civilians-dumped-across-baghdad/)
The war logs record US soldiers finding tens of thousands of bodies dumped on the streets and thrown into the rivers of Iraq, as violence broke out across the country.
There are 32,563 cases of civilian murders by insurgent groups, accor
ding to the files substantially more than the 20,228 killed in IED explosions.
In hundreds of cases there are also references to torture, including that of 32 children.
The violence detailed in the documents is horrific. It includes .....
a Doctor is nearly the same thing as a soldier....especially in the context you are using it.
A) They have to work hard to aquire the necassary skill....to become or work in the Healthcare industury.
B) They have to follow strict guidelines..if they don't , extreme punishment and loss of thier license.
C) Some believe in what they do actually helps people.....and many times it does.....sometimes it does not....( acctually Many times it does not...especially in the Obstetrician or vaccination fields)
Listen alphawolf this shit is not very complicated. Everyone will have their own definition of what does and does not constitue a hero. In the case of chris kyle his intentions may have been good and in an earlier post I stated that he is most definitely is a hero for those he went to war with and protected and for you as well he is also a hero since you idolize military exploits. But if you ask me, in the grand scheme of things, I would not consider a hero someone whom was directly responsible for so much suffering in the name of a cause that I do not consider noble. That is all.
:roll:
Hilarious how you think you've got it all figured out and we Americans are just naive 'Merica loving pawns.
The US isn't doing anything different than the UK, Spain, France, Rome and every other global empire has done throughout history. Do you not realize the only reason your country exists is because of England's colonialism?
"So many countries that dislike America" would be doing the exact same thing if they were in the US' position.
Ironic how you recognize that there are no good guys vs. bad guys yet you still fail to see the forest for the trees.
You are not wrong generally speaking but I'm wondering if that fits in what the founders intended America to be or if it fits in what made America a great nation in the first place. I'm not an American but I'm genuinely interested in the differing perspectives in that regard.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 03:47 PM
Listen alphawolf this shit is not very complicated. Everyone will have their own definition of what does and does not constitue a hero. In the case of chris kyle his intentions may have been good and in an earlier post I stated that he is most definitely is a hero for those he went to war with and protected and for you as well he is also a hero since you idolize military exploits. But if you ask me, in the grand scheme of things, I would not consider a hero someone whom was directly responsible for so much suffering in the name of a cause that I do not consider noble. That is all.
I idolize many things....
One day you will wake up kid...
BTW...
- health care is a Billion upon Billion dollar industry....it is more corrupt then any Oil recovery industry...
- Doctors who try to do help people should be looked at as hero's.....they also just work for a Union who's main goal is to make money ....money from others suffering.
- (I'll give you a small example for sh!ts and giggles)....my Local hospital has a 77% cesarean rate....that means nearly 8 outta 10 women will give Birth through major surgery instead of Natural Births...( I know extreme cases need a cesarean...but 77%???)
- How much $$$$ is made from Cesarean Births?.....what are the negative effects of so many major surgery's?...why do we constantly push this?...why do so many doctors keep that rate up?
- another one.....why so many prescription Drugs for children?.....why so many vaccines at such a young age?....( Like only a few weeks old and already pumping deseases and chemicals in baby's?)..why so many Doctors push this?
:cheers:
I idolize many things....
One day you will wake up kid...
BTW...
- health care is a Billion upon Billion dollar industry....it is more corrupt then any Oil recovery industry...
- Doctors who try to do help people should be looked at as hero's.....they also just work for a Union who's main goal is to make money ....money from others suffering.
- (I'll give you a small example for sh!ts and giggles)....my Local hospital has a 77% cesarean rate....that means nearly 8 outta 10 women will give Birth through major surgery instead of Natural Births...( I know extreme cases need a cesarean...but 77%???)
- How much $$$$ is made from Cesarean Births?.....what are the negative effects of so many major surgery's?...why do we constantly push this?...why do so many doctors keep that rate up?
- another one.....why so many prescription Drugs for children?.....why so many vaccines at such a young age?....( Like only a few weeks old and already pumping deseases and chemicals in baby's?)..why so many Doctors push this?
:cheers:
The hell are you rambling about, no one is saying a doctor is automatically a hero either. :cheers:
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 03:59 PM
The hell are you rambling about, no one is saying a doctor is automatically a hero either. :cheers:
...Your Hero worship of Doctors and Lifeguards is the same thing as someone looking up to a soldier..
same sh!t diffrent toilet.
( you said a Doctor who try's to help someone???....)
...Your Hero worship of Doctors and Lifeguards is the same thing as someone looking up to a soldier..
same sh!t diffrent toilet.
( you said a Doctor who try's to help someone???....)
Oh now I see why you were rambling about doctors. I was giving a specific example of a doctor in my area who has helped many people and goes out of his way to make sure that his patients have what they need, that guy is defintely a hero. The fundamental difference between this doctor and your hero chris kyle is that this doctor has not killed 255 people in the name of washingtons political agendas.
bmulls
02-04-2013, 04:44 PM
You are not wrong generally speaking but I'm wondering if that fits in what the founders intended America to be or if it fits in what made America a great nation in the first place. I'm not an American but I'm genuinely interested in the differing perspectives in that regard.
No, the founding fathers were isolationists. George Washington is famously quoted as saying something like we should be cautious of entering into foreign entanglements.
Later on as the country grew up there was the Monroe Doctrine and a few other pieces of foreign "expansionist" policy, but I don't think US really grew into it's current role until WWI and WWII.
millwad
02-04-2013, 05:18 PM
Are there any reports of Chris Kyle killing any innocent people?
He must have shot and killed a couple of innocent, the guy claims that he killed more than 250 people and it wouldn't be the first time that soldiers have killed innocent people.
And I personally have a hard time calling someone a hero after killing so many people in a war that never should have started and in a war where tens of thousands innocent people have been killed.
I guess that what comes around goes around.
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 05:24 PM
Go talk to an iraqi and see what they have to say about the bush regime that "brought freedom" to their country. All of the men he killed were most likely young men trying to fight for their country when they got invaded by a superpower who claims to be on the morally correct side yet doesnt hesitate to dirty its hands to protect any of its interests. Not to mention the civilian casualties and all of the damage done to the country. I know first hand how grimy your countries politics are
red1, this all assumes the entire war took place in 2003. It didn't. Life for the average Iraqi turned got much worse not immediately after the invasion, but after the insurgency began and turned horrific after the Sunni-Shite civil war began.
You should ask an Iraqi about slaughter brought about by Sunni terrorists who joined the insurgency. You should ask about the Sunni and Shite death squads who would pull people off buses and check their IDs and then execute anyone named Omar or anyone named Ali depending on who was doing the killing and who they wanted to target.
kNicKz
02-04-2013, 05:30 PM
http://media.fakeposters.com/results/2012/07/13/niomt2tp0i.jpg
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 05:33 PM
Terrorists? What terrorists do you speak of? Al-Qaieda? Taliban? WIthout the US governments funding, they would not exist. They were funded by YOUR government in order to fight the Soviets.
None of what you say is true. It's a myth about Al Qaeda, the Arabs in Afghanistan were a tiny sideshow and did not receive US funds which went to the actual Afghan militias doing the fighting. All mujaheddin are not the same.
The Taliban bit isn't even a misunderstood myth, it just stupid to anyone who know the history of that war. The Taliban did not even exist until after the Soviets left. The Taliban were created AFTER the Afghan civil war that occurred years AFTER the Soviets left and AFTER the Communist government which itself was years after the Soviets left.
When the Soviets left so did the US. We didn't stick around for the civil war and we certainly weren't there when the Taliban was organized as a result of that war.
Blue&Orange
02-04-2013, 05:34 PM
I just had a great idea, how about giving assault rifles to war veterans with posttraumatic stress disorder and send them guard schools? That would be a good use of tax payers money.
kNicKz
02-04-2013, 05:37 PM
I just had a great idea, how about giving assault rifles to war veterans with posttraumatic stress disorder and send them guard schools? That would be a good use of tax payers money.
http://t.qkme.me/35jek4.jpg
millwad
02-04-2013, 05:39 PM
red1, this all assumes the entire war took place in 2003. It didn't. Life for the average Iraqi turned got much worse not immediately after the invasion, but after the insurgency began and turned horrific after the Sunni-Shite civil war began.
You should ask an Iraqi about slaughter brought about by Sunni terrorists who joined the insurgency. You should ask about the Sunni and Shite death squads who would pull people off buses and check their IDs and then execute anyone named Omar or anyone named Ali depending on who was doing the killing and who they wanted to target.
This is still stupidity.
Since the invasion a small town in Sweden called Sodertalje took in more iraqi refugees than Canada and the US combined. I've met plenty, plenty and plenty of refugees from Iraq and not even once have I heard anyone say anything good about the invasion or the result of it.
I've worked for free at a center for newly arrived foreigners in 2007, some of them were illegals and we gave them food, diapers and other stuff for free. I can't even recall once hearing that anyone felt any joy over Iraq's future or anyone being grateful over the invasion of their homeland.
No one is saying that Iraq was a good country to live in but you're full of crap, you should be aware of the fact that Ali is probably one of the most common names in Iraq so enough about your death squad propaganda. At least write valid stuff and don't write bogus.
ace23
02-04-2013, 05:41 PM
Shut the fck up retard. This guy survived 2 bullet wounds and 6 IEDs, killed hundreds of terrorists and saved hundreds if not thousands of American lives. He came back home and was killed trying to help a fellow veteran suffering from PTSD. He is the very definition of a hero. How embarrassing of you to sit there behind your computer and criticize when he accomplished more in his brief life than you ever will. I hope you realize what a pathetic insignificant phagg0t you are.
Agree with this. I have an enormous amount of respect for anyone who's accomplished what he has.
red1, you still my n!gga, doe.
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 05:48 PM
Are there any reports of Chris Kyle killing any innocent people?
He must have shot and killed a couple of innocent, the guy claims that he killed more than 250 people and it wouldn't be the first time that soldiers have killed innocent people.
This is simply pure conjecture. You also may not understand the difference between a sniper and regular infantryman. A sniper is likely much, much less likely to kill an innocent person because they actually have their eyes on the target. Snipers aren't used randomly. They are generally used in firefights. So they would actually be able to see some raise their weapon.
Another use that I know of in Iraq was against IED teams. If a certain spot was known to be where IED had been placed (which usually meant the locals knew they were there, the locals may be complicit or not.), they would put the area under observation and use snipers to take out guys who were trying to bury or trigger IEDs.
millwad
02-04-2013, 05:55 PM
This is simply pure conjecture. You also may not understand the difference between a sniper and regular infantryman. A sniper is likely much, much less likely to kill an innocent person because they actually have their eyes on the target. Snipers aren't used randomly. They are generally used in firefights. So they would actually be able to see some raise their weapon.
Another use that I know of in Iraq was against IED teams. If a certain spot was known to be where IED had been placed (which usually meant the locals knew they were there, the locals may be complicit or not.), they would put the area under observation and use snipers to take out guys who were trying to bury or trigger IEDs.
I am very well aware of snipers not being used randomly but considering how many innocent civilians who died in Iraq I wouldn't be surprised. I would like to know the records from his kills. He has 160 confirmed kills but he claims that he killed 255 people, that sounds fishy to me.
And regarding your so called knowledge, keep it to yourself, I don't really trust anything you write without mentioning sources. I just read your bogus post about deathsquads killing people with the name "Ali". It was embarrassing to the say the least.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 06:01 PM
Oh now I see why you were rambling about doctors. I was giving a specific example of a doctor in my area who has helped many people and goes out of his way to make sure that his patients have what they need, that guy is defintely a hero. The fundamental difference between this doctor and your hero chris kyle is that this doctor has not killed 255 people in the name of washingtons political agendas.
again.....
He does not have the option of making a choice to "kill 255 people in the name of washingtons political agendas"....
He was serving his country.....when you are in the Military you do not have the choice to decide what is right or wrong...
you follow orders.....that is it......you don't have the option to sit back and decide...
seems you can't grasp that concept.....how lucky you are ..... because of the shoulders from those who didn't have a choice.
BTW...
- Doctors ( who cannot go against Health Care policies) push far more Prescription drugs and vaccinnes ( even though they know the damages to the human nervous system) everyday...doing far more damage to the population/Universe then a soldier Killing 250 people.
- You don't like Soldiers following orders...but you look up to Doctors??....( shakes head......stupid civilians)
keepinitreal
02-04-2013, 06:33 PM
again.....
BTW...
- Doctors ( who cannot go against Health Care policies) push far more Prescription drugs and vaccinnes ( even though they know the damages to the human nervous system) everyday...doing far more damage to the population/Universe then a soldier Killing 250 people.
- You don't like Soldiers following orders...but you look up to Doctors??....( shakes head......stupid civilians)
Doing far more damage? 25,000,000 people in the US have diabetes and 65,000,000 people in the US have hypertension. I'm pretty sure a lot of these people would DKA / hypertensive crisis / stroke / MI / etc without the help of prescription medications. Sure, there are people who die from prescription medications, but most of those people are abusing medications or not taking them properly.
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 06:39 PM
This is still stupidity.
Since the invasion a small town in Sweden called Sodertalje took in more iraqi refugees than Canada and the US combined. I've met plenty, plenty and plenty of refugees from Iraq and not even once have I heard anyone say anything good about the invasion or the result of it.
I'm not making the argument about the invasion or that there was any benefit to the invasion. The argument I making is his portrayal of innocent Iraqi patriots is full of shit. It wasn't a group of innocent Iraqis who bombed the UN facility. It was terrorist organization operating in Iraq which was headed by Jordanian. He also bombed Al-Askari Mosque which ignited a sectarian Civil War.
His portrayal of patriotic Iraqis doesn't understand the dynamics of Iraqi after we invaded. There were Iraqis who were patriotic and took up arms and joined the new government and staffed the Iraqi police force and new the Iraqi army. These were generally not the folks we were killing. To say the violence in Iraq from 2003 to 2011 was just American vs Iraqi shows you only know about the beginning of the war and don't know anything about the rest of it.
One quote I read by a Iraqi Museum director was under Saddam the violence came from the government and you learned how to keep your head down and avoid it. In the war years, violence came from everywhere and there was no way to avoid it. Violent anarchy is much worse than tyranny. Folks who were refugees in Iraqi were of the victims of this violence.
You can ask those Iraqi refugees if any Iraqis were perpetrating violence against other Iraqis. Even in the early days, a lot of folks who took up arms were just straight out criminal gangs. Ask them about kidnappings and the like. Coordinated car bombings are still going on in Iraq like these in Feb 2012 (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombings-kill-dozens.html?_r=0) and in July 2012 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iraq-violence-flares-as-multiple-attacks-result-in-country-s-bloodiest-day-in-months-1.453010)
The insurgency began as mainly a Sunni fight. Think the battles of Fallujah. Sunni Iraqi insurgents formed a strategic alliance with foreign Sunni terrorist groups (They also formed some domestic Iraqi terrorist groups.) However, in the south there was a separate Shiite insurgency. There was later Shiite on Shiite violence and let's for the sake of brevity leave out the Kurds.
No one is saying that Iraq was a good country to live in but you're full of crap, you should be aware of the fact that Ali is probably one of the most common names in Iraq so enough about your death squad propaganda. At least write valid stuff and don't write bogus.
Yes, I do know Ali is a common name in Iraqi. And virtually all people named Ali are Shiite. Omar is also a popular name and virtually all people named Omar are Sunni. The point was there was sectarian death squads from both sides terrorizing the population.
You are truly ignorant about Iraq in the 21st century if don't know about death squads and the sectarian violence that erupted in Iraq. Most of Baghdad had a mix of Sunnis and Shia neighborhoods. No longer. During the violence of 2006, there were campaigns of sectarian cleansing going on. If you would Sunni in an area going Shiite, you would get death threats and eventually you would flee to a Sunni neighbhood. The same thing happened in reverse.
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 07:05 PM
Examples of sectarian death squads terrorizing Iraq because of their names.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/sep/04/sunni-and-shiite-iraqi-journalists-talk-about-war/?print&page=all
Sunni and Shiite Iraqi journalists talk about war
When the conflict between the Shiites and Sunnis started in 2006, everything changed.
Anybody named Omar (a Sunni name) was a target. I used to live near Yarmouk hospital, which was taken over by the Mahdi army, a Shiite militia, during the sectarian fighting.
A doctor whose name was Omar received threats and had to leave. An official in the morgue, who was my friend, was killed because he was Sunni. Many Sunnis I knew in the hospital were killed, including seven people named Omar in the area around the Yarmouk hospital........
I returned to Baghdad and asked not to be assigned to Sunni areas where people knew me and knew I worked for an American news agency. I asked to cover Risafa, a Shiite area.
I memorized the names of the Shiite Imams because if I had a run in with the Mahdi army, that's the first thing they'd ask.
I also covered the fighting between the Americans and the Mahdi army in Najaf. The militia men caught us, accused us of being spies and interrogated us for a long time. The longer they kept us, the more I was afraid they would find out I was Sunni.
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/111506/wor_111506062.shtml
Mass kidnapping at Iraq's education ministry;
Suspected Shiite militiamen dressed as Interior Ministry commandos stormed a Higher Education Ministry office Tuesday and kidnapped dozens of people after clearing the area under the guise of providing security for what they claimed would be a visit by the U.S. ambassador.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16247664/#.URA7eh1-kig
Several mass kidnappings have been carried out in the Iraqi capital in recent months, possibly by armed groups on either side of the sectarian conflict between Sunnis and Shiites.
On Thursday, gunmen in military uniforms kidnapped people from a commercial area in central Baghdad, police said. The attackers drove up to the busy Sanak area in about 10 sport utility vehicles and began rounding up shop owners and bystanders. Police said 50 to 70 people were abducted, but at least two dozen were later released.
The assault in Sanak came nearly a month after gunmen in Interior Ministry commando uniforms abducted scores of men from a Higher Education Ministry office building. The Education Ministry is predominantly Sunni Arab. About half of the victims were released.
The Price of a Name Is Death
http://www.rescue.org/news/price-name-death-newsweek-international-4226
To be called Abu Omar in today's Iraq is to be on death row. "Abu Omar" means "father of Omar." And this means that you probably are a Sunni and your son is a Sunni, too. And, as a Sunni friend explained to me last month-with her Shia husband sitting next to her-"all Omars in Iraq are either killed or change their names. For any Omar, the safest bet is to flee."
This is what the Abu Omar from Baghdad whom I met in Amman had done. He fled to Jordan after his relative named Omar was murdered, and after his son (the little Omar, 9) was first beaten and then, in a separate incident, kidnapped along with his sister Nabaa, 11. The ransom demanded was $10,000. Abu Omar did not ask the name of the group that wanted the money; he sold his shop and house and paid. Thirteen days later, his two children were back with him. Without waiting for anything worse to happen, Abu Omar left Baghdad
Where Your Name Can Be a Death Sentence
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1212291,00.html#ixzz2JySRqh4G
When he spotted the black Opel driving toward him on a recent evening, Omar Farooq knew he was about to confront his worst fears. Twice that week, the high school student had been chased by gunmen in a similar vehicle. On both occasions he had been in his own car and was able to get away. Now, walking down a narrow street toward his home in a middle-class Baghdad neighborhood, the 16-year-old was helpless. "They had me. Either they would take me or shoot me down as I tried to run." The Opel stopped, the rear door swung open, and one of the passengers pointed a pistol at him. Another reached out and dragged Omar in by the collar. Tires squealing, the car pulled away with Omar lying in a heap on the floor.
The two men in the backseat began to kick and pistol-whip him, ordering him to "confess" to being a Sunni and demanding to know his name. For months, Omar had heard stories of Sunni boys and men being snatched, tortured and killed by Shi'ite death squads. Because Omar is a common Sunni name, he claimed to be "Haider," a Shi'ite. But not only did his captors know his real name, they even knew that Omar had been named after his father. "They kept saying, "Omar, son of Omar, you have an evil name," he says.
For the next two hours, he endured constant beating as the car drove around the neighborhood. Only when the car ran into a checkpoint staffed by U.S. troops did Omar realize he might not be killed. Rather than risk being discovered by the Americans, his captors opened the door and tossed him into the street with a warning: "You may escape now, Omar — but with a name like yours, you're never going to be safe."
It's indicative of the danger of daily life in Baghdad these days that the very basis of your identity can mark you for death. For combatants in Iraq's low-boil civil war — which has erupted anew in the capital, with dozens of Sunnis killed by Shi'ite militants in the last few days — identifying the enemy can be difficult. Shi'ites and Sunnis share a common ethnicity and have a hard time telling themselves apart. And so the killers rely on a cruder vetting process: choosing victims based on their first name, which for many Iraqis is their only religiously distinguishing characteristic.
To the Shi'ite death squads responsible for many of the worst recent atrocities, no Sunni name incites more bile than Omar. (The original Omar was Islam's second Caliph and is reviled by Shi'ites who believe he worked against the interests of Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad.) More than a dozen Omars interviewed by TIME say that when they produce identification cards bearing their name, they regularly endure harassment by Shi'ite policemen and government officials. Others have met a more gruesome fate. In a single incident last earlier this year, the bodies of 14 Omars were found in a Baghdad garbage dump. They had all been killed with a single bullet to the head, and their ID cards were placed carefully on their chests. It has, says Saleh Mutlak, a prominent Sunni politician, "become the most dangerous name in Iraq."
millwad
02-04-2013, 07:23 PM
I'm not making the argument about the invasion or that there was any benefit to the invasion. The argument I making is his portrayal of innocent Iraqi patriots is full of shit. It wasn't a group of innocent Iraqis who bombed the UN facility. It was terrorist organization operating in Iraq which was headed by Jordanian. He also bombed Al-Askari Mosque which ignited a sectarian Civil War.
Listen, don't play games and don't write bogus.
First of all, you were the one who mentioned the situation of the iraqis and that was what I replied to. No one is saying he killed tons of innocent iraraqis. My concern is regarding how many innocent the man killed. The man himself claims that he killed way more people then what's been confirmed and that makes me very suspicious.
His portrayal of patriotic Iraqis doesn't understand the dynamics of Iraqi after we invaded. There were Iraqis who were patriotic and took up arms and joined the new government and staffed the Iraqi police force and new the Iraqi army. These were generally not the folks we were killing. To say the violence in Iraq from 2003 to 2011 was just American vs Iraqi shows you only know about the beginning of the war and don't know anything about the rest of it.
Don't put words in my mouth, don't play games because I will destroy you. You've only showcased a great amount of ignorance and stupidity, don't claim I've written stuff which you later made up by yourself.
And I like how you label the patriotic Iraqis as the one's who joined the new government, army and the police force. Only that shows how ignorant and stupid you are, especially considering the controversies around the election and that the Iraqi government is considered to be one of the most corrupt governments in the Middle East. So the rest of the Iraqi's who had no part in the politics, army or police force are basically less patriotic.
You can ask those Iraqi refugees if any Iraqis were perpetrating violence against other Iraqis. Even in the early days, a lot of folks who took up arms were just straight out criminal gangs. Ask them about kidnappings and the like. Coordinated car bombings are still going on in Iraq like these in Feb 2012 (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/world/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombings-kill-dozens.html?_r=0) and in July 2012 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iraq-violence-flares-as-multiple-attacks-result-in-country-s-bloodiest-day-in-months-1.453010)
The insurgency began as mainly a Sunni fight. Think the battles of Fallujah. Sunni Iraqi insurgents formed a strategic alliance with foreign Sunni terrorist groups (They also formed some domestic Iraqi terrorist groups.) However, in the south there was a separate Shiite insurgency. There was later Shiite on Shiite violence and let's for the sake of brevity leave out the Kurds.
Why are you replying with irrelevant garbage, I've never even once written about Iraqi vs Iraqi violence and fighting. You are trying to justify the non-legit invasion with rants about Iraq and the fighting going on that the US has nothing to do with. That is completely irrelevant, it's not even what I'm discussing.
Yes, I do know Ali is a common name in Iraqi. And virtually all people named Ali are Shiite. Omar is also a popular name and virtually all people named Omar are Sunni. The point was there was sectarian death squads from both sides terrorizing the population.
First of all, "in Iraqi"? Seriously, it's arabic and in the arab world and not "Iraqi", you're so uneducated that it's not even funny.
That is complete lie, I know 3 persons with the name Ali who are not even religious to start with, and that is in Sweden and they come from background with atheist parents. You have no clue what you're talking about, Ali is one of the most common names in the whole region of the middle east and there is no truth to it about the name being virtually only a name of Shia muslims.
You are truly ignorant about Iraq in the 21st century if don't know about death squads and the sectarian violence that erupted in Iraq. Most of Baghdad had a mix of Sunnis and Shia neighborhoods. No longer. During the violence of 2006, there were campaigns of sectarian cleansing going on. If you would Sunni in an area going Shiite, you would get death threats and eventually you would flee to a Sunni neighbhood. The same thing happened in reverse.
Haha, you're the one who's ignorant and stupid. I've never even commented on your so called facts other than the bogus post you wrote about the name Ali. That post alone shows how uneducated and clueless you really are.
First you write a rant about the violence between Iraqi's and I commented on that and then you go "I'm not making the argument about the invasion or that there was any benefit to the invasion."
You follow that up with writing yet another rant about Iraqi vs Iraqi violence. I know you like to act like you're some expert when it comes to the Middle East but your posts are full of errors, hypocrisy and stupidity. Please, educate yourself.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 07:25 PM
Doing far more damage? 25,000,000 people in the US have diabetes and 65,000,000 people in the US have hypertension. I'm pretty sure a lot of these people would DKA / hypertensive crisis / stroke / MI / etc without the help of prescription medications. Sure, there are people who die from prescription medications, but most of those people are abusing medications or not taking them properly.
- we need to change our lifestyle...not prescribe more Drugs.
- How many people OD on prescribed Drugs?....How many people still OD while taking the proper amount?....How many Physcological and nuerological problems do Prescribed Drugs cuase?..not only the person but on a society.
why the constant need to push major surgery for issues not needing it?....why so many vaccines?...why so many vaccines at a young age?.....
a Billion dollar industry feeding off of the weak....everyone dies.
( Of course there are some cases when you need major surgery/meds/ etc....but our society and it's Health care politics are insane)
"Buuu...buu.....Doctors are hero's!!....Gods even!!"....
they are just following orders.....like the rest of us.
millwad
02-04-2013, 07:27 PM
Examples of sectarian death squads terrorizing Iraq because of their names.
So yes, you completely made it up about Ali.
This is too funny, I replied regarding your lie about deathsquads killing people with the name "Ali" which is one of the most common names in the Middle East and in Iraq and you back your lie with spamming about deathsquads killing people with the name of Omar.
You're not even worth discussing with, for god sake, you even wrote "in Iraqi" which shows how little you know about Iraq. And then you wrote a lie about the most common name in the Middle East which I confronted you about and then you reply with giving me a reply about the name Omar.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 07:37 PM
Are there any reports of Chris Kyle killing any innocent people?
He must have shot and killed a couple of innocent, the guy claims that he killed more than 250 people and it wouldn't be the first time that soldiers have killed innocent people.
And I personally have a hard time calling someone a hero after killing so many people in a war that never should have started and in a war where tens of thousands innocent people have been killed.
I guess that what comes around goes around.
- How are you supposed to know who is the "bad guy" in Close combat quarters of a city?...
- when I was on a piece keeping mission in Kosovo...Little kids were just as able to engage you as a "bad guy" dressed up as a OMG! "terrorists"...
- GTFO with all your hindsight ...."innocent people"...unless you served ,your words are as meaningful as Tits on a Borhog...
go cry us a river.
millwad
02-04-2013, 07:44 PM
- How are you supposed to know who is the "bad guy" in Close combat quarters of a city?...
- when I was on a piece keeping mission in Kosovo...Little kids were just as able to engage you as a "bad guy" dressed up as a OMG! "terrorists"...
- GTFO with all your hindsight ...."innocent people"...unless you served ,your words are as meaningful as Tits on a Borhog...
go cry us a river.
You're the one who's crying about people not wanting to call the man a "hero". Personally I couldn't care less if he's dead, especially considering the fact that he has a record of killing 155 people while claiming himself that he killed 250 people which is very fishy to me.
I couldn't care less about you keeping mission in Kosovo, being a dummy in a war doesn't make you any more intelligent and considering that you must a grown up male while being obsessed with Kobe you probably got hit in the head in Kosovo.
Is He Ill
02-04-2013, 07:53 PM
please explain..If there is no belief in something ( survival....or protecting yourself/family/country /anything)..waht's the point of fighting???
Coming out victorious in a combat situation has very little to do with "belief" if you are not equipped with the same tools or attributes as your foe. There is no purpose of fighting if you do not believe in what you are fighting for, but that has little to do with the end result given that there are so many more relevant variables.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 08:09 PM
Coming out victorious in a combat situation has very little to do with "belief" if you are not equipped with the same tools or attributes as your foe. There is no purpose of fighting if you do not believe in what you are fighting for, but that has little to do with the end result given that there are so many more relevant variables.
Throught History this has been proven fase.....
you will fight or you will flight.....life isn't fair.
Hittin_Shots
02-04-2013, 08:12 PM
Throught History this has been proven fase.....
you will fight or you will flight.....life isn't fair.
It's a whole lot easier to have belief if you outmuscle the other side ridiculously....
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 08:15 PM
You're the one who's crying about people not wanting to call the man a "hero". Personally I couldn't care less if he's dead, especially considering the fact that he has a record of killing 155 people while claiming himself that he killed 250 people which is very fishy to me.
I couldn't care less about you keeping mission in Kosovo, being a dummy in a war doesn't make you any more intelligent and considering that you must a grown up male while being obsessed with Kobe you probably got hit in the head in Kosovo.
naww.....
I'm just laughing the fools saying he's not a hero becuase......
wait for it.....
wait for it.....
wait for it......
"He was just an American soldier fighting for a corrupt Government"....." he just Killed so many people.......he sould have spent his life bringing GOOD to the Universe instead....became a Doctor or a LifeGuard"
- obviously you guy's don't know shit about how the world operates.
- and I never said I was smart.....I'm just reality.
- and :cheers: you succeded in bringing KOBE into this thread.....took awhile but somehow you did it.
RoboticWang
02-04-2013, 08:18 PM
Not to sound like an asshole here, but maybe, JUST MAYBE taking someone to the shooting range who is suffering from severe PTSD is not the brightest idea?
This is the type of person whom we need to keep far away from firearms and explosives not push them towards it. Shooting is not a solution or treatment for mental illness.
PTSD is a breakage of the ability to cope with war and society through prolonged combat stress.
Putting that person directly back into this position can instantly trigger outbursts.
While I admire Chris for trying to help his fellow military member out I have to say this was not a very bright solution.
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 08:23 PM
You're not even worth discussing with, for god sake, you even wrote "in Iraqi" which shows how little you know about Iraq.
Um, yeah that's a typo. I meant in Iraq. So put that little fever dream out of your head.
So yes, you completely made it up about Ali.
Um, no. Iraqis (see there I used it right!) don't have many tools to tell each other apart by sect, however names is one of them and in Iraq (see, there I used right again) your first name indicates your sect more reliably than your last name (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2006/02/how_can_sunnis_and_shiites_tell_each_other_apart.h tml)
Sectarian violence in Iraq last week resulted in 379 deaths and 458 wounded, the Iraqi government announced on Tuesday. A weekend curfew had been put in place to de-escalate the strife between Sunnis and Shiites that boiled over after the bombing of an important Shiite shrine. Amid all this conflict, how can Shiites and Sunnis tell each other apart?
It's not easy. For the most part, you can't tell a Shiite or a Sunni by how they look, talk, or dress. There are Shiite and Sunni regions and neighborhoods in Iraq, and members of small communities may know the religious affiliations of their neighbors. You might also get some idea of which sect an Iraqi belongs to from his family name. Chalabi, for example, is a well-known Shiite name, and Pachachi tends to be Sunni. But surnames aren't reliable either, given the number of intermarriages that occurred under Baath party rule.....
This tradition makes it more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite. A man named Omar, Abu Bakr, or Yazid would almost certainly be a Sunni, since these names correspond to the opponents of the first imams and the major villains of Shiite history.
As for the "death squad propaganda:" do you now agree that there were death squads working in Iraq and that is not propaganda? Do agree that death squads were using first names to target their victims?
If you traveled though Iraq, you had to go through checkpoints manned by Shiite guards and Sunni guards and your name could give you away. Iraqis were always afraid of going checkpoints manned by someone of the opposite sect. (http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/driving-through-iraq-to-samarra/)
You might be right that Omar is a stronger indication of sect than Ali, but I didn't make this up. (http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=2187293)
Fake IDs Save Lives at Illegal Checkpoints in Baghdad
In the United States, fake IDs help college kids get past skeptical bouncers outside bars. But in Iraq, they can save lives.
Fake identification comes in handy at illegal checkpoints, as radical Shiite and Sunni militias increasingly target people from the opposing group for abduction and often execution. Now many Iraqis carry two IDs in their pockets and will produce one or the other, depending on who is asking for it.
It's All in the Name
Iraqis are required to show ID cards at checkpoints all over Baghdad. These cards, which are handwritten and have a photograph attached before being laminated, do not actually state whether the bearer is Shiite or Sunni. But first names, tribal names, birthplaces and places of residence often indicate a person's stream of Islam.
Sunnis, for example, are often called Omar, and many have the tribal names of al Jabouri, Dulaibi and al Ani. Shiites are often named Ali or Hussein, and bear tribal names like al Saidi, al Miyahi or Al Mousawi.
Anyway it's a tangent. Anyone who has paid attention knows there were death squads in Iraq, the Shiite ones tended to be associated with the government.
AlphaWolf24
02-04-2013, 08:25 PM
It's a whole lot easier to have belief if you outmuscle the other side ridiculously....
You go live in the desert for a year and tell me it's easy....
America is great becuase we have so many men and women who believed ...
PS: we were not always the ones with the Muscle....thank Goodness John Adams wasn't a P*ssy who was afraid to Fight....
Germany and Japan were Powerful Foes....
:facepalm this country is raising a bunch of cowards.
G-train
02-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Are there any reports of Chris Kyle killing any innocent people?
He must have shot and killed a couple of innocent, the guy claims that he killed more than 250 people and it wouldn't be the first time that soldiers have killed innocent people.
And I personally have a hard time calling someone a hero after killing so many people in a war that never should have started and in a war where tens of thousands innocent people have been killed.
I guess that what comes around goes around.
One of the more insensitive posts I've seen in ISH history.
Balla_Status
02-04-2013, 08:47 PM
Dont know where you got pseduo-intellectual from but bmulls for real you need to stop believing everything your govt tells you. Your government wants to paint soldiers as heros because they need to do that to keep the ball rolling. Your politicians dont truly give a fcuk about individual soldiers, when cheney was lining his wallet through halliburton I would bet a million dollars he wouldnt want any of his close family serving.
Why do you think so many countries in the world dislike america? Why do you think so many americans go to war and come back disillusioned about the whole thing? Its because they realize there is no such thing as the good guys vs the bad guys and they realize how bullshit the whole thing is.
I still don't understand why Halliburton is made to be a scapegoat in all this. The company doing the work over there was KBR who Halliburton broke off from. If it was "all about the money," Halliburton wouldn't have broke off from them. KBR has experience doing what they did and it isn't always perfect. You think they purposely ****ed up over there? You have to consider the conditions. Cheney knew KBR well and what they did and was familiar with them. You ever think that may have been the reason why he chose them?
It's funny you tell bmulls to stop believing everything that the government tells them. That's true to extent but believing everything the media and michael moore tell you probably isn't a smart idea either.
Also, how much money/oil is the US government receiving from Iraq? You do realize there are only two American companies working over there right? And all the operators working over there are working with the iraqi government to produce the oil. So they're training Iraqis and making the iraqi government loads of money and the oil is going to europe more than likely.
Not to mention that USA is "supposed" to be the #1 oil producer by 2017. And Canada/Mexico/Venezuela/Saudi Arabia are the biggest oil exporters to USA in that order. The oil argument holds no weight whatsoever. If you can shed some rationale on it, try me. If war was strictly about oil, we'd take over Canada. You pussbags would be way easier to deal with than the middle east.
The war in iraq was bogus. That's a fact. And JDG has the best post in this thread. He's a hero for saving his own american troops in Iraq. He's a hero for trying to help out a fellow soldier suffering from PTSD. If anything this is an argument to bring the troops home. Doesn't even belong in a gun control argument. Of course Obama won't do that though as he's just like Bush in terms of foreign policy.
I will agree he's not a hero in the respect of protecting america's freedom (as the iraq war was a bogus one). And you can't rail on him for killing people in Iraq as he was just doing his job.
Is He Ill
02-04-2013, 08:53 PM
- obviously you guy's don't know shit about how the world operates.
- and I never said I was smart.....I'm just reality.
- and :cheers: you succeded in bringing KOBE into this thread.....took awhile but somehow you did it.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/198/010/tysonreaction.gif
KevinNYC
02-04-2013, 09:04 PM
No one is saying he killed tons of innocent iraraqis. My concern is regarding how many innocent the man killed. The man himself claims that he killed way more people then what's been confirmed and that makes me very suspicious.
See we can all make typos. Does that prove you are stupid and uneducated?
Confirmed kill has specific meaning in the US military. I believe it means the someone witnessed the dead body. If you take a shot and the body drops out of sight, this might be an unconfirmed kill. I'm sure most snipers probably consider themselves to have more kills than unconfirmed, I wouldn't know.
However, it's still speculation if ever killed anyone innocent.
His portrayal of patriotic Iraqis doesn't understand the dynamics of Iraqi after we invaded.
Don't put words in my mouth, don't play games because I will destroy you. You've only showcased a great amount of ignorance and stupidity, don't claim I've written stuff which you later made up by yourself.
Yeah, you could destory me or you could realize that when I said HIS, I meant HIS and not YOURS because I was talking bout what he said and not you.
Why are you replying with irrelevant garbage, I've never even once written about Iraqi vs Iraqi violence and fighting. You are trying to justify the non-legit invasion with rants about Iraq and the fighting going on that the US has nothing to do with. That is completely irrelevant, it's not even what I'm discussing.
Nothing I've said here or at any time of ISH attempted a justification of the US invasion. So that bolded part might just apply to you. What I was saying was after we invaded there were several shitstorms of violence still to come. I'm not saying anything about 2003, but would it have been responsible to leave in 2006 when Iraq was descending into civil war? It probably would have been a regional war if we did that. After Vietnam and all the enmity that brought, we learned in the US to not project our ideas about the war policy makers onto the war fighters. It was a whole big cultural war for us. Lots of US soldiers fought because they were hoping to leave Iraq in a better place
That is complete lie, I know 3 persons with the name Ali who are not even religious to start with, and that is in Sweden and they come from background with atheist parents. You have no clue what you're talking about, Ali is one of the most common names in the whole region of the middle east and there is no truth to it about the name being virtually only a name of Shia muslims.
Haha, you're the one who's ignorant and stupid. I've never even commented on your so called facts other than the bogus post you wrote about the name Ali. That post alone shows how uneducated and clueless you really are.
Addressed in the other post about names. And yes, I'm aware you could be named David or Joseph and born to non-religious parents. However, I'm not sure the guys with guns who are looking for people to kill would care so much. What happened in Sweden doesn't really apply to what happened at and Iraqi (Did I do good?) during a sectarian civil war.
First you write a rant about the violence between Iraqi's and I commented on that and then you go "I'm not making the argument about the invasion or that there was any benefit to the invasion."
Well all that violence was released after the invasion, so I am clueless as to why you think I would that would be a benefit. It was saying now that we went in, there was a ton of shit to deal with. This is why the organization like the UN wanted us not to leave before helping us set up a stable Iraq once we were there.
millwad
02-05-2013, 03:33 AM
Sectarian violence in Iraq last week resulted in 379 deaths and 458 wounded, the Iraqi government announced on Tuesday. A weekend curfew had been put in place to de-escalate the strife between Sunnis and Shiites that boiled over after the bombing of an important Shiite shrine. Amid all this conflict, how can Shiites and Sunnis tell each other apart?
It's not easy. For the most part, you can't tell a Shiite or a Sunni by how they look, talk, or dress. There are Shiite and Sunni regions and neighborhoods in Iraq, and members of small communities may know the religious affiliations of their neighbors. You might also get some idea of which sect an Iraqi belongs to from his family name. Chalabi, for example, is a well-known Shiite name, and Pachachi tends to be Sunni. But surnames aren't reliable either, given the number of intermarriages that occurred under Baath party rule.....
This tradition makes it more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite. A man named Omar, Abu Bakr, or Yazid would almost certainly be a Sunni, since these names correspond to the opponents of the first imams and the major villains of Shiite history.
You might be right that Omar is a stronger indication of sect than Ali, but I didn't make this up. (http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=2187293)
Stop lying, seriously, you're so full of nonsense that it's not even funny.
First you go on a rant about deathsquads killing people with the name of Ali which is probably the most common name in the Middle East and in Iraq.
Then you get confronted about it and you tell me that "virtually all people with the name Ali are Shiite" which is yet another lie.
When you get confronted about that you post parts from an article where the name "Omar" is discussed, something I never even made a comment about, as a proof that you were telling the truth.
When I confront you about the fact that I was talking about the name Ali you post parts of an article where it says; "This tradition makes it more likely that a man named Ali, Hassan, or Hussein would be a Shiite."
There's a huge difference between the word "more likely" and "virtually all". And not only did you make that up, the death squad part about people with the name Ali being killed due their names was also made up nonsense from your side.
This is why I never believe anything you post.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 03:40 AM
So I post a bunch of quotes from actual reporting on Iraq that support the idea that deathsquads were targeting people by name and that's lying?
Also please answer the question do you now admit there were deathsquads in Iraq in the past decade?
millwad
02-05-2013, 04:01 AM
So I post a bunch of quotes from actual reporting on Iraq that support the idea that deathsquads were targeting people by name and that's lying?
Also please answer the question do you now admit there were deathsquads in Iraq in the past decade?
Are you mentally challenged or are you just acting stupid?
I haven't even made a comment about death squads existing, I confronted you regarding your made up nonsense about death squads going after people with the name of Ali, which is probably the most common name in the Middle East.
And when you got confronted you lied again when you wrote "virtually all people with the name of Ali are Shiites", which is not true.
I didn't confront you regarding the death squads, I confronted you regarding your lies about the name Ali. And then when you got confronted you posted an article about the name "Omar" and then to back up your earlier nonsense you posted yet another link where it said that "it's more likely" compared to your earlier nonsense about "virtually all Ali's being Shiite".
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 04:11 AM
Further evidence.
September 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/06/world/middleeast/06identity.html?ex=1315195200&en=2dd07d4416997e50&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)
To Stay Alive, Iraqis Change Their Names
The country’s Sunni-Shiite bloodletting is driving many Iraqis to bury the very essence of their identity: their names.
To have to hide one’s name is considered deeply shameful. But with sectarian violence surging, Iraqis fear that the name on an identification card, passport or other document could become an instant death sentence if seen by the wrong people.
That is because some first names and tribal names indicate whether a person is Sunni or Shiite. A first name of Omar is popular among Sunnis, for example, as is Ali among Shiites.
Stories abound of Iraqi civilians being stopped at checkpoints by militiamen, insurgents or uniformed men and having their identification cards scrutinized. They are then taken away or executed on the spot if they have a suspect name or a hometown dominated by the rival sect. In Baghdad, Shiite death squads — sometimes in police uniform — operate many of the illegal checkpoints, Iraqi and American officials say.
....
Common names among Shiites include Ali, Hussein and Abbas. Sunnis prefer Omar, Othman or Marwan. The tribal name can also be a giveaway — Dulaimi and Jubouri are large Sunni tribes, for example, while Lami and Daraji are predominantly Shiite ones.
July 9th 2006 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/28/AR2006092801996_2.html)
At Checkpoints in Baghdad, Disguise Is a Lifesaving Ritual
On July 9, in Baghdad's al-Jihad neighborhood, Shiite militiamen allegedly killed 40 Sunnis after erecting checkpoints and checking identity cards. Three days later, unknown gunmen attacked a bus station in the northeastern town of Muqdadiyah and separated Sunni men from Shiites. They blindfolded and handcuffed the Shiites, then shot them in the head.
"People are basically killed or taken away simply because of their name, their identity or specific affiliations," said Gianni Magazzeni, head of the U.N. human rights office for Iraq.
As violence increases, Iraqis turn to fake IDs (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13806135/#.URC52R1-kig)
A bookstore in eastern Baghdad is getting more customers these days, but they aren’t looking for something to read. The owner sells fake IDs, a booming business as Iraqis try to hide their identities in hopes of staying alive.
....
Sunni names include Abu Bakr, Omar or Othman, who are particularly reviled by Shiite extremists who perceive them as having usurped power from Imam Ali, the prophet’s cousin and the Shiites most revered saint.
millwad
02-05-2013, 04:22 AM
Further evidence.
September 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/06/world/middleeast/06identity.html?ex=1315195200&en=2dd07d4416997e50&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)
July 9th 2006 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/28/AR2006092801996_2.html)
What's wrong with you, seriously?
You lied and you can't admit you lied, Ali is a popular name among muslims no matter what side you're on, what country you live in or what continent you're from.
You wrote that virtually all people with the name Ali are Shiites which is a lie and you can't even admit you lie. Instead you spam article after article which really doesn't change your lie.
There's a massive difference between Ali being a popular name among Shiites compared to calling that the name is virtually only used by Shiites, which is a lie. Alot of iraqi's are named Ali no matter what side of the religion they choose to go after.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 04:30 AM
Are you mentally challenged or are you just acting stupid?
A question better saved for you mirror.
I haven't even made a comment about death squads existing,
You called it propaganda. The point about being target by death squads because of their names was my larger point. I specifically remembered people being pulled off buses and being separated by name. Do you deny this?
For some reason you seem obsessed on the much smaller point of does the name Ali identify you as Shiite as below.
I confronted you regarding your made up nonsense about death squads going after people with the name of Ali, which is probably the most common name in the Middle East.
And when you got confronted you lied again when you wrote "virtually all people with the name of Ali are Shiites", which is not true.
I didn't confront you regarding the death squads, I confronted you regarding your lies about the name Ali. And then when you got confronted you posted an article about the name "Omar" and then to back up your earlier nonsense you posted yet another link where it said that "it's more likely" compared to your earlier nonsense about "virtually all Ali's being Shiite".
See here's the thing, I could be wrong on the meaning of Iraqi names, but that still doesn't mean I'm lying. In my other post, I quoted several different pieces of reporting that says the first name Ali in Iraq identifies you as Sunni. That's where I got my impression and all those journalists could be wrong, but then I would be repeating misinformation which is different from lying. However, you would have to go a long, long way to convince me that all these folks who were reporting from Iraq had it wrong and you have it right.
Frankly, I think you accused me of bad faith, because it was easier than responding to my actual argument. The whole name thing was a small detail in support of the argument that there were a whole lot of killers in Iraq terrorizing the Iraqi populace that needed to be confronted.
Your arugment was basically that you were against the US invasion of Iraq, therefore Chris Kyle must have killed innocent people ....or something like that. It was incoherent, infected with ideology and ignoring the reality of Iraq after the invasion. When I pointed that I out I must have bad motives, I must be trying to justify the invasion, spout propaganda and lie.
tomtucker
02-05-2013, 04:43 AM
Not to sound like an asshole here, but maybe, JUST MAYBE taking someone to the shooting range who is suffering from severe PTSD is not the brightest idea?
This is the type of person whom we need to keep far away from firearms and explosives not push them towards it. Shooting is not a solution or treatment for mental illness.
PTSD is a breakage of the ability to cope with war and society through prolonged combat stress.
Putting that person directly back into this position can instantly trigger outbursts.
While I admire Chris for trying to help his fellow military member out I have to say this was not a very bright solution.
i agree......it really sounds like an absurd idea.......some war vets even hate/fear newyears eve, because of the loud fireworks
millwad
02-05-2013, 04:59 AM
A question better saved for you mirror.
You called it propaganda. The point about being target by death squads because of their names was my larger point. I specifically remembered people being pulled off buses and being separated by name. Do you deny this?
For some reason you seem obsessed on the much smaller point of does the name Ali identify you as Shiite as below.
It's not a smaller point, you just wrote that death squads were killing people with probably the most common name in Iraq. And you wrote that the name was virtually only used by Shia muslims which is completely false.
See here's the thing, I could be wrong on the meaning of Iraqi names, but that still doesn't mean I'm lying. In my other post, I quoted several different pieces of reporting that says the first name Ali in Iraq identifies you as Sunni. That's where I got my impression and all those journalists could be wrong, but then I would be repeating misinformation which is different from lying. However, you would have to go a long, long way to convince me that all these folks who were reporting from Iraq had it wrong and you have it right.
Then don't post stuff you have no clue about, when you're unsure of a certain thing, don't use it as facts. Especially not when it's a conclusion you came up with yourself. No where did any of your articles say that it was virtually only used by Shia muslims, that's your own made up lie.
Frankly, I think you accused me of bad faith, because it was easier than responding to my actual argument. The whole name thing was a small detail in support of the argument that there were a whole lot of killers in Iraq terrorizing the Iraqi populace that needed to be confronted.
This is not the first time I've corrected you regarding you making up own conclusions, that's why I'm very skeptical when I see you in these kind of threads because you're not well informed and you come up with own conclusions.
You got actual arguments, you claim you didn't use the death squad argument as a pro-war argument but you keep showing that you only mentioned it to justify the invasion.
No one is saying that there's no killers in Iraq terrorizing the population or that they didn't need to be confronted. Hell, US if full of killers and even though they're not organizations it's still a country full of killers. The thing is that they didn't need to be confronted by the US with a bogus invasion on false charges where tens of thousands of innocent iraqi's got killed, where the country got bombed on false charges and where the building up process is still going on.
Your arugment was basically that you were against the US invasion of Iraq, therefore Chris Kyle must have killed innocent people ....or something like that. It was incoherent, infected with ideology and ignoring the reality of Iraq after the invasion. When I pointed that I out I must have bad motives, I must be trying to justify the invasion, spout propaganda and lie.
That's not even the issue, the issue was that you were up to propaganda bogus. You're justifying war with reasons as the country not being in good shape, and you claim you're not but it's obvious that you are.
And not at all, again, don't put words in my mouth.
I wrote that I find it fishy that Chris Kyle claims that he killed way more people then recorded and that I don't find a person who killed that many people, probably some innocent people as well in the process to be a hero.
I challenged the fact that you were making up untrue stuff and I challenged your reason of mentioning Iraqi vs Iraqi issues.
tomtucker
02-05-2013, 05:04 AM
the whole "innocent people" stuff is dumb........in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan..the enemy did not wear a offical uniform, they wore normal everyday clothes......so no wonder innocent people could be killed.... that was also a part of the plan, so they could say civilans were killed by allied forces........actually, by not wearing a uniform in an armed conflict, you give up all your rights because it is against the laws of war
andgar923
02-05-2013, 05:08 AM
Regardless of whether you believe he's a hero or not, the war itself, soldiers are dying and we're killing to make rich people richer.
All these wars have bottom line.
To make these rich mufuhkas wealthier.
Poor soldiers are out there risking their lives for each other. Even after they find out the truth, they go back to protect their brothers.
As far as soldiers killing innocent civilians, it's a tough
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 05:12 AM
the whole "innocent people" stuff is dumb........in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan..the enemy did not wear a offical uniform, they wore normal everyday clothes......so no wonder innocent people could be killed.... that was also a part of the plan, so they could say civilans were killed by allied forces........actually, by not wearing a uniform in an armed conflict, you give up all your rights because it is against the laws of war
I don't think that's even what people are talking about when they talk about innocents being killed. No disputes the killing of insurgents who are not wearing a uniform. There are talking about incidents like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namir_Noor-Eldeen
tomtucker
02-05-2013, 05:51 AM
good insight of modern war
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pCOkTiR_yc
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 05:55 AM
It's not a smaller point, you just wrote that death squads were killing people with probably the most common name in Iraq. And you wrote that the name was virtually only used by Shia muslims which is completely false.
I stand by my larger point that death squads were targeting Iraqis based on their names.
Then don't post stuff you have no clue about, when you're unsure of a certain thing, don't use it as facts. Especially not when it's a conclusion you came up with yourself. No where did any of your articles say that it was virtually only used by Shia muslims, that's your own made up lie.
I don't know what you are calling a conclusion, but the idea that Ali was mainly used as a first name in Iraq was based on journalism that I read. Journalism I read years ago. I found some examples and posted them in another post, that was the type of stories I had heard back in 2006 and 2007 and probably later when some books were publishing that dealt with the sectarian cleansing of Baghdad.
You got actual arguments, you claim you didn't use the death squad argument as a pro-war argument but you keep showing that you only mentioned it to justify the invasion. [QUOTE]
I clearly didn't do this and furthermore it makes no sense. How could the death squads that emerged in 2005-2006 be used to justify the invasion of 2003? I don't get this.
[QUOTE]No one is saying that there's no killers in Iraq terrorizing the population or that they didn't need to be confronted. Hell, US if full of killers and even though they're not organizations it's still a country full of killers. The thing is that they didn't need to be confronted by the US with a bogus invasion on false charges where tens of thousands of innocent iraqi's got killed, where the country got bombed on false charges and where the building up process is still going on.
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I talk about your ideology infecting your argument. You're pretty much off the rails here. The last time the United States was as dangerous as Iraq has been in the past decade was in the early 1860's. Spielberg made a film about it. It's quite good. There was a single day in 2001 when the US was quite violent as. We do have our issues in America, but here's what we don't have: police stations coming under RPG attacks, routine mortar attacks, waves of coodinated car bombings, house bombs (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/15/AR2007081502320.html), people being pulled off buses by the dozens and then found dead in the street with power drill holes in their bodies, etc.
That's not even the issue, the issue was that you were up to propaganda bogus. You're justifying war with reasons as the country not being in good shape, and you claim you're not but it's obvious that you are.
No. I'm not justifying going to war. I actually marched against this war. I was saying there was a lot of legitimate military activity to be had once the war started and saying there's no evidence that Chris Kyle acted other than honorably there. Maybe he didn't, but the only evidence people are giving is that they didn't like the Iraq war which is obviously just silly.
And not at all, again, don't put words in my mouth.
yeah, I'm sneakly like that.
I wrote that I find it fishy that Chris Kyle claims that he killed way more people then recorded and that I don't find a person who killed that many people, probably some innocent people as well in the process to be a hero.
So you find that fishy so what? That means he killed innocent people? Also notice how I have never claimed that Chris Kyle is a hero. I had heard of his book, but I didn't know the man's name until he died. (After reading up on him, I see no reason he wouldn't be considered a military hero. He was the best at what he did and he received several medals for valor and probably helped save many lives of his fellow troops.) What is the basis of your accusation that he probably killed some innocent people other than ideology?
As for his confirmed kills vs unconfirmed, look up military snipers, I don't think it's unusual to have more kills than confirmed kills.
I challenged the fact that you were making up untrue stuff and I challenged your reason of mentioning Iraqi vs Iraqi issues.
I tell you what. We have had our back and forth. Let's have a bet. Loser leaves ISH.
We'll have the folks of ISH read through this thread and put it to their vote. Which of us argued in good faith and backed up their arguments? If they feel I lied during this thread or that I tried to justify the invasion or Iraq, I will leave ISH. You agree to leave if they feel you didn't argue in good faith. We'll create a new thread and take the issue there. It will be like a jury trial we a chance for us to defend ourselves.
Do you accept?
again.....
He does not have the option of making a choice to "kill 255 people in the name of washingtons political agendas"....
He was serving his country.....when you are in the Military you do not have the choice to decide what is right or wrong...
you follow orders.....that is it......you don't have the option to sit back and decide...
seems you can't grasp that concept.....how lucky you are ..... because of the shoulders from those who didn't have a choice.
BTW...
- Doctors ( who cannot go against Health Care policies) push far more Prescription drugs and vaccinnes ( even though they know the damages to the human nervous system) everyday...doing far more damage to the population/Universe then a soldier Killing 250 people.
- You don't like Soldiers following orders...but you look up to Doctors??....( shakes head......stupid civilians)
:coleman:
Kevin the point is that no one is innocent, especially the american govt who still doesnt have a valid reason for why they went to war with iraq the in first place. RIP to the guy, none of us know him and can give a comment on him but he is still not a hero in my eyes
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 02:47 PM
Kevin the point is that no one is innocent, especially the american govt who still doesnt have a valid reason for why they went to war with iraq the in first place. RIP to the guy, none of us know him and can give a comment on him but he is still not a hero in my eyes
Why is that? Because you are against militarism? Or his achievements needed to be in a just war?
Actually, a simpler way to ask it is do you believe any solider can be a hero?
Balla_Status
02-05-2013, 03:01 PM
Kevin the point is that no one is innocent, especially the american govt who still doesnt have a valid reason for why they went to war with iraq the in first place. RIP to the guy, none of us know him and can give a comment on him but he is still not a hero in my eyes
Not a hero for furthering bad agendas by the government. True.
He is unquestionably a hero for saving his friends (other troops) lives put in danger by the agenda and helping out those with PTSD. Please read johndeeregreens post again.
Why is that? Because you are against militarism? Or his achievements needed to be in a just war?
Actually, a simpler way to ask it is do you believe any solider can be a hero?
His main achievement was killing a shitload of Iraqis on their home soil in a war that most likely occured for financial reasons. I know many iraqis and they left an impression on me. They all hate bush and co with a passion and view the american govt as a bully. Of course saddam is also a b*tch and he is even worse for what he did but that is another story for another day.
Not a hero for furthering bad agendas by the government. True.
He is unquestionably a hero for saving his friends (other troops) lives put in danger by the agenda and helping out those with PTSD. Please read johndeeregreens post again.
I read his post and he is absolutely right.
Rasheed1
02-05-2013, 04:55 PM
Why is that? Because you are against militarism? Or his achievements needed to be in a just war?
Actually, a simpler way to ask it is do you believe any solider can be a hero?
How about if he was killing Americans? would he be a hero then?
isnt heroism a point of view?
:confusedshrug: wtf
AlphaWolf24
02-05-2013, 05:36 PM
Regardless of whether you believe he's a hero or not, the war itself, soldiers are dying and we're killing to make rich people richer.
All these wars have bottom line.
To make these rich mufuhkas wealthier.
Poor soldiers are out there risking their lives for each other. Even after they find out the truth, they go back to protect their brothers.
As far as soldiers killing innocent civilians, it's a tough… very tough. I'm sure some do it on purpose, but most don't go out there with intention on doing so. Most are simply trying their best to survive, or simply following orders. I don't put much blame on soldiers in combat.
- I served my country....willingly...I volunteered...as has everyone else that joined the Military.
- we understand what our jobs are, talking for myself and for my brothers who were next to me....no need to feel sorry for us....
- Feel sorry for the fellow Americans who do nothing to better themselves our our country.
- again ,
every service member in the Military willingly Volunteered.....War is what they asked for.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 06:34 PM
His main achievement was killing a shitload of Iraqis on their home soil in a war that most likely occured for financial reasons. I know many iraqis and they left an impression on me. They all hate bush and co with a passion and view the american govt as a bully. Of course saddam is also a b*tch and he is even worse for what he did but that is another story for another day.
So basically you're saying because of the context he couldn't demonstrate heroism. To me that's a bit simplistic. Like I mentioned in another thread, American fought a long culture war after Vietnam, it helped us separate our feelings for policy makers and those who are the instruments of policy makers.
He did win several medals for valor. The citation says he helped rescue fellow soldiers and two journalists who had been pinned down by enemy fire. He exposed himself to enemy fire during the rescue. Another time he exposed himself to enemy fire during an RPG attack to rescue other fellow soldiers.
I don't know about you, but that's more heroic than anything I've done. As I have gotten older, I have become very wary of criticizing "the man in the arena" when I am not in their shoes. For example, Paul Bremer was a disaster as the head of the CPA and made a couple of decisions that helped kickstart the insurgency for which deserves criticism. However, I also know he probably worked harder on that job that I have ever done. I don't know if I would be able to put months of 18-hour days at my age, let alone at his.
One problem with being an American Soldier since 1946 is you are often used not in a straight defense of your country, but to further American interests and in that role, you can be used wisely or not.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 06:37 PM
every service member in the Military willingly Volunteered.....War is what they asked for.
Do seriously believe this part?
I think they understand it's a possibility and sure some seek it out, but do you really think it's what they ask for?
AlphaWolf24
02-05-2013, 07:04 PM
Do seriously believe this part?
I think they understand it's a possibility and sure some seek it out, but do you really think it's what they ask for?
- From my expierence......yes.( and I can speak for my brothers as well)
- I served in a combat MOS.....when I wasn't travelling overseas...we were training CAX 7 Months outta the year ( Living in the High desert....training like we were in Combat situations engaging )..training to send rounds down range to eliminate the enemy.
of course we wanted the pink mist.....to apply ourselves in real situations.
- No one signs up for a combat MOS just to sit around and spit shine our shoes..
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 07:04 PM
How about if he was killing Americans? would he be a hero then?
isnt heroism a point of view?
:confusedshrug: wtf
I agree on the point of view. However, I think "killing Iraqis" is way too simplistic. The Iraqis he was facing were intentionally killing other Iraqi civilians. They also weren't just Iraqis. He earned his knickname in Ramadi which is an area that Zarqawi who was Jordanian was quite active in and wanted to "cleanse" of Shiites. Al Qaeda in Iraq had taken over and operated openly in parts of Ramadi. It was only in 2007 when the Sunni tribes who were part of the insurgency turned on the foreign fighters that Al Qaeda was driven out of Ramadi.
So I don't think people who kill to terrorize civilains are heroes.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 07:08 PM
No one signs up for a combat MOS just to sit around and spit shine our shoes..
I think that's it right there. Not every one in the military signs up for a combat occupation.
millwad
02-05-2013, 07:14 PM
I agree on the point of view. However, I think "killing Iraqis" is way too simplistic. The Iraqis he was facing were intentionally killing other Iraqi civilians. They also weren't just Iraqis. He earned his knickname in Ramadi which is an area that Zarqawi who was Jordanian was quite active in and wanted to "cleanse" of Shiites. Al Qaeda in Iraq had taken over and operated openly in parts of Ramadi. It was only in 2007 when the Sunni tribes who were part of the insurgency turned on the foreign fighters that Al Qaeda was driven out of Ramadi.
So I don't people who kill to terrorize civilains are heroes.
He wasn't only in Ramadi.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 07:19 PM
That is true. Neither was Zarqawi.
BTW, I made an offer at the one of my of my earlier posts to you here.
millwad
02-05-2013, 07:24 PM
That is true. Neither was Zarqawi.
BTW, I made an offer at the one of my of my earlier posts to you here.
Yes, I saw it, I laughed and couldn't believe that you'd be this pathetic. And I replied but I got logged out and the text disappeared and you're frankly not worth the time.
It's called a forum, the purpose of a forum is to discuss. I couldn't care less about you leaving the forum or if anyone thinks you're more right or wrong but one thing I know for sure is that no one cares.
You need to mature some.
And oh, so you basically mean that Zarqawi and his buddies were all over Iraq and that the war actually was only a war against Al-Qaeda? Please, tell me you're not serious.
AlphaWolf24
02-05-2013, 07:45 PM
I think that's it right there. Not every one in the military signs up for a combat occupation.
- True...but lets not get it twisted....
- You can sign up for a non combat MOS ( Fix GPS systems or Tele comm ,Admin or Photo journalists work on Airplanes or Radars....) but all that comes down to one Basic principle..
Be ready to use your skills in a combat role when your command deems necassary.
- Is it likely that a non combat MOS will approximate contact with a enemy threat?....not likely...
but it happens alot,
- We had Comm guy who was seting up a antenna spot a Truck Full of armed Iraqi's.......he called back to Artillery and told them to FFE ( send alot of artillery rounds to his location)...he ended up bein the direct catalyst for that elimination....despite working on Communicatio equipment.
- Everyone who signs up knows they might have a hand in WAR....some a little.....some a grip full.
KevinNYC
02-05-2013, 07:58 PM
You need to mature some.
http://twistedsifter.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/macho-man-randy-savage-costume.jpg
And oh, so you basically mean that Zarqawi and his buddies were all over Iraq and that the war actually was only a war against Al-Qaeda? Please, tell me you're not serious.
At some point, the Sunni insurgency made a strategic decision to ally with foreign jihadists and boycott the democratic process until they realized it was a big mistake several years later.
no, the iraq war was stupid, we all know that.........but when the enemy gives you nicknames, then it means you are speciel.......
.
btw, on wiki it says the sniper with mosts kills is a finnish soldier in the WW2 era.......504 soviet soldiers killed........insane
Yea, Simo Hayha is his name... "confirmed" 505 kills but he probably killed more than that... lived to be almost 100...
I saw an interview with him where he said that the key to his success was patience, experience and not using scopes, only the default iron sights with a bolt action mosin nagant because he got better view and a realistic feeling of the distance between him and the target which is how he trained for automatic bulletdrop & wind calculations... plus the scope is prone to reflection giving away his position and would fog up in cold weather.... speaking of patience, he said he used to dig himself inside the snow and wait there for hours until he got a kill and then he would immediately relocate, sometimes on a snowstacked tree and would use the same method to avoid detection when the enemies in to many numbers would patrol around him.... dude was the GOAT :D
http://imgttg.com/user/avatar/1073081_136590.jpg
So basically you're saying because of the context he couldn't demonstrate heroism. To me that's a bit simplistic. Like I mentioned in another thread, American fought a long culture war after Vietnam, it helped us separate our feelings for policy makers and those who are the instruments of policy makers.
He did win several medals for valor. The citation says he helped rescue fellow soldiers and two journalists who had been pinned down by enemy fire. He exposed himself to enemy fire during the rescue. Another time he exposed himself to enemy fire during an RPG attack to rescue other fellow soldiers.
I don't know about you, but that's more heroic than anything I've done. As I have gotten older, I have become very wary of criticizing "the man in the arena" when I am not in their shoes. For example, Paul Bremer was a disaster as the head of the CPA and made a couple of decisions that helped kickstart the insurgency for which deserves criticism. However, I also know he probably worked harder on that job that I have ever done. I don't know if I would be able to put months of 18-hour days at my age, let alone at his.
One problem with being an American Soldier since 1946 is you are often used not in a straight defense of your country, but to further American interests and in that role, you can be used wisely or not.
No one is doubting that he took huge risks and made ballsy sacrifices but you basically said it yourself when you acknowledge that it was those in power who wasted his efforts. I am going to get off this because I feel that this is in poor taste but I just wanted to share another perspective
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