Tyreke and Blake Griffin

[Pointguard]

The more they know the game the worse they get. Great Rookie campaigns but it was all south from there. Both were huge athletes at their position with great know-how of doing their thing there, but have both shrunk severely and seemingly know less about themselves and the game. I never seen anything like them. Are they taking an Anti-steriods?

1. Anybody else like them?
2. On what teams could they look like their rookie selves?
3. Have NBA coaches dumbed em down?

[Rekindled]

I dont think Blake regressed at all, he has gotten better. it's just that his rookie year he was the go to guy. now he has CP3 and Crawford above him inthe pecking order.

same thing with tyreke

[andremiller07]

I dont think Blake regressed at all, he has gotten better. it's just that his rookie year he was the go to guy. now he has CP3 and Crawford above him inthe pecking order.

same thing with tyreke

Pretty much hit the nail on the head, stats don't mean everything

[Myth]

Blake's rebounding is the only thing that seemed to have dipped. I think he was more aggressive as a rookie, but overall he is smarter and more efficient.

Blake's first game though dropped my jaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcODpwKFhgU

[Kellogs4toniee]

The more they know the game the worse they get. Great Rookie campaigns but it was all south from there. Both were huge athletes at their position with great know-how of doing their thing there, but have both shrunk severely and seemingly know less about themselves and the game. I never seen anything like them. Are they taking an Anti-steriods?

1. Anybody else like them?
2. On what teams could they look like their rookie selves?
3. Have NBA coaches dumbed em down?


I say this in the most non-condescending way, but watch a good sample size of them actually playing the game before making such statements. I can't say anything for Tyreke because I have not watched many Kings games the last 2-3 years, but Blake Griffin is leaps and bounds better this year than during his rookie campaign.

[33teeth]

Tyreke is playing pretty well this season and not forcing too much.

Try watching a few games rather than just looking at box scores. :confusedshrug:

[COnDEMnED]

This isnt part of the original question, but DeMarcus Cousins could have really used another year or two of college ball to mature. I would love to see him get traded to whatever team Kevin Garnett finishes out his career on. I think Cousins would have to respect KG enough to allow him to help put it together. If that team happens to be say the Spurs with coach Pop...Wow. It would be a shame for Cousins to ruin what could be an amazing career because hes such a wackjob. I hope he figures it out, hes going to be fun to watch if he does.

[mjokc]

In before Clippersfan86.

[b0bab0i]

As stated from most people above, griffin has improved greatly since his rookie season. He's improved his defense greatly and is now knocking down outside jumpers .

Not sure about tyreke though because I haven't had a chance to watch many kings games.

[Miles and Miles]

Tyreke isn't a very intelligent person. Teams know what he is going to do about 99% of the time but yet he can't change. I like Tyreke but his game has not developed.

[ralph_i_el]

The more they know the game the worse they get. Great Rookie campaigns but it was all south from there. Both were huge athletes at their position with great know-how of doing their thing there, but have both shrunk severely and seemingly know less about themselves and the game. I never seen anything like them. Are they taking an Anti-steriods?

1. Anybody else like them?
2. On what teams could they look like their rookie selves?
3. Have NBA coaches dumbed em down?


you're just retarded.

Blake doesn't have to shoot as much or play as many minutes because he has good teammates and they're winning games by large margins. His shooting is so much better now. He's a beast

He's also become a positive on defense as opposed to the negative presence he had his rookie year

[Darius]

Blake's rebounding is the only thing that seemed to have dipped. I think he was more aggressive as a rookie, but overall he is smarter and more efficient.

Blake's first game though dropped my jaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcODpwKFhgU

hah funny to watch that video.

The main thing that came to mind watching it was:

"No one in that game any idea how to guard Griffin."

People severely underestimate how much it inhibits players once teams start game planning for them. If teams still played Griffin in that clueless way he'd be dropping 30 a night.

Players improve but defenses improve with them so sometimes it looks like they are less effective stats-wise but they are putting more and more pressure on the defense.

I think Griffin is especially affected by this bc of the spectacular nature of his game. Guys are hyper-aware of him because they don't want to get embarrassed.

[Clippersfan86]

Everybody else here is slapping the OP around with knowledge so no need for me to say much other than.. you're an idiot, watch more games. Like a few others have said I'm not sure about Tyreke. He's in such a toxic situation that it's really hard for me to judge him.

[NuggetsFan]

Blake has got better. Problem is people saw his rookie season and thought OMGZ goat PF next year he's going to average 25 points per game. The only reason he put up that great of a rookie season was because the Clippers forced him into that role and he was on a lottery team going nowhere and he was extremely talented.

As the team he got better so did he but statistically speaking he never saw the huge spike that some anticipated because while he got better so did the Clippers. Blake doesn't average what he did his rookie season with this team.

I'm sure if the Clippers were still winning 30-40 games he could put up much better numbers, not that he isn't already doing so right now but the type of numbers people expected after his rookie season.

[Pointguard]

I say this in the most non-condescending way, but watch a good sample size of them actually playing the game before making such statements. I can't say anything for Tyreke because I have not watched many Kings games the last 2-3 years, but Blake Griffin is leaps and bounds better this year than during his rookie campaign.
Oh, so he's more aggressive? He rebounds better? They were worrying about his conditioning his rookie year? He doubts himself now? His presence is no where near what it was his rookie year. Did I miss every good game? Wow, he's more efficient and picks his spots but when he's not aggressive he's overthinking everything.

Please show me another player who came in at 22.5 and 12.5 and looks like Blake two years later. Please, just name me one. He came in with one of the best rookie campaigns from a modern day PF, it was like TD's. When he's aggressive people say he's the same athlete as Lebron. Right now, that seems like some cruel joke. His assertiveness is like a role players. 18 and 8.5??? He was one of the few that had the promise of a post game. 8.5rebs is garbage. I guess yall would know best but trust me, he was feared at one point. I just don't see him getting 30 and 15 I fully expect that from Kevin Love I expect 15 and 8 from Blake - the guy who came in dominant.

[DuMa]

if you really think blake griffin has gotten worse since his rookie year, all i can say is that you watch the box score too much. if anything blake griffin is almost the perfect reason why you shouldnt watch the box score so much and watch the games more. his statistical declines have nothing to do with how well he is playing and having more impact contributing to team success

[Pointguard]

Thanks NuggetsFan,
People here are thinking that a player can simply get back to their rookie level of aggression and domination - it doesn't work like that at all. The first thing is that scouting becomes more aggressive and effective as coaches see more of you. Its never good to regress because you start thinking you are a 8 rebound per game player. You think Kevin Love thinks of himself that way. Whatever you settle for - the league will make sure you won't surpass it. He's too young to settle.

All of you who disagree with me, show me the player who averaged 12 and went down to 8 without injury before he was 25 years old. Just give me one example. Barkley wasn't like him at the same age. Moses and Karl Malone weren't close to his play at age 21. On average they would be about 7 ppg and 2 rebounds below Blake. Tim Ducan wasn't as productive as BG either. But at 23, they all would demolish him. They all would probably double up on him - very good chance of that. But yall call it progress. None of them look to the ref like he does. None of them settled for 9 rebounds. That's a mentality.

When you are 23 and 24 you better love the grind and go for it because the love of the doesn't get stronger if you aren't engaging. Domination is a mentality that works like a muscle - you don't use it you loose it.

You guys don't think there's a word out about BG? They know he looks to the refs. They know he rarely has a great game. They know he can be sidetracked. They know they can get a little guy to challenge him. They aren't saying like yall are saying: "he's more efficient, he's smarter." Now if he was more aggressive, claimed more space underneath, and acted like he was the best PF in the game, trust me they make note of that.

He should be dominating gentlemen. Yall just expect little.

[NuggetsFan]

Thanks NuggetsFan,


I'm not really agreeing with you. Blake was AWFUL defensively his rookie season. He's became a better defender. His rebounding numbers are down but that probably has to do with Clippers becoming more talented across the board. His scoring hasn't went up like some predicted because he's on competitive teams that have better offensive options, I'm sure if he was on a bottom dweller it would rise just like it did when the Clips got banged up with injuries. His assists are down from his rookie season because a contender like the Clippers probably won't run it's offense through Blake like they did in his rookie season if they want to be contenders.

Since his rookie season he's became a more polished player, better defensively and I'd rather 3rd year Blake Griffin vs rookie Blake Griffin. Rookie Blake Griffin was in a better position to average superior statistics than 3rd year Blake Griffin is what I'm implying.

[Clippersfan86]

Pointguard... Barkley never had the help Blake does now which is why he ended his career ringless. Barkley was one of those players who were so good they carried their respective teams to contention but never had enough help to get it done. I know he had a few awesome players in his career such as KJ but nowhere near the TEAM talent that the current Clippers have. As for Malone having a guy like Stockton who AVERAGED 13+ apg regularly spoon feeding him all day it's not hard to average 28. Not to mention the Jazz offense ran through Malone. The Clippers offense SHOULD run through Griffin and eventually will with a better coach but right now it doesn't nearly enough.

Besides pace was much faster in the 80's and 90's and the game was so different that it's stupid to compare them like that. Blake has a reduced role due to this being one of the deeper teams in the last decade and he is playing less minutes. His rebounding is down because you have high minute players like Odom dominating the glass. Not to mention he's playing from the high post, midrange area way more than before so he's not in position for 12 rpg.

Blake in his prime will likely be a 25/10/4 type player with very good man D, he just needs another 2-3 years to get to his prime.

[ralph_i_el]

Thanks NuggetsFan,
People here are thinking that a player can simply get back to their rookie level of aggression and domination - it doesn't work like that at all. The first thing is that scouting becomes more aggressive and effective as coaches see more of you. Its never good to regress because you start thinking you are a 8 rebound per game player. You think Kevin Love thinks of himself that way. Whatever you settle for - the league will make sure you won't surpass it. He's too young to settle.

All of you who disagree with me, show me the player who averaged 12 and went down to 8 without injury before he was 25 years old. Just give me one example. Barkley wasn't like him at the same age. Moses and Karl Malone weren't close to his play at age 21. On average they would be about 7 ppg and 2 rebounds below Blake. Tim Ducan wasn't as productive as BG either. But at 23, they all would demolish him. They all would probably double up on him - very good chance of that. But yall call it progress. None of them look to the ref like he does. None of them settled for 9 rebounds. That's a mentality.

When you are 23 and 24 you better love the grind and go for it because the love of the doesn't get stronger if you aren't engaging. Domination is a mentality that works like a muscle - you don't use it you loose it.

You guys don't think there's a word out about BG? They know he looks to the refs. They know he rarely has a great game. They know he can be sidetracked. They know they can get a little guy to challenge him. They aren't saying like yall are saying: "he's more efficient, he's smarter." Now if he was more aggressive, claimed more space underneath, and acted like he was the best PF in the game, trust me they make note of that.

He should be dominating gentlemen. Yall just expect little.


just looking at the # of rebounds tells you very little. He's got DJ and crew sucking up more rebounds these days and he plays less minutes.

If you want to really judge BG you need to watch him play. He pulled a sweet little stepback on Tyson Chandler yesterday that would have been impossible for rookie Blake:applause:



Please show me another player who came in at 22.5 and 12.5 and looks like Blake two years later. Please, just name me one. He came in with one of the best rookie campaigns from a modern day PF, it was like TD's. When he's aggressive people say he's the same athlete as Lebron. Right now, that seems like some cruel joke. His assertiveness is like a role players. 18 and 8.5??? He was one of the few that had the promise of a post game. 8.5rebs is garbage. I guess yall would know best but trust me, he was feared at one point. I just don't see him getting 30 and 15 I fully expect that from Kevin Love I expect 15 and 8 from Blake - the guy who came in dominant.

He looks better than the Blake who had 22.5 and 12.5.

look at per 36 and he's been within 1 point each of his seasons. If stats are all you care about then check out the advanced ones and get back to me http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/griffbl01.html


Griffin's rookie year he had an injured eric gordon and RANDY FOYE as his two other offensive options and that team BLEW. Mo williams and Bdiddy were hurt almost all of that year

Now that he has CP3 and Jcraw scoring why would you expect him to score as many points? Especially when he impacts the team offensively even when he isn't scoring. He's top 5 for PF's as a ballhandler and passer imo





@OP You're right on Tyreke though I don't know what went wrong with that guy. Refuses to use his left hand for layups and it might be seriously limiting him. Just watch him play he's always trying to do a reverse with his right hand instead of just laying it in with his left

[Pointguard]

Pointguard... Barkley never had the help Blake does now which is why he ended his career ringless. Barkley was one of those players who were so good they carried their respective teams to contention but never had enough help to get it done. I know he had a few awesome players in his career such as KJ but nowhere near the TEAM talent that the current Clippers have. As for Malone having a guy like Stockton who AVERAGED 13+ apg regularly spoon feeding him all day it's not hard to average 28. Not to mention the Jazz offense ran through Malone. The Clippers offense SHOULD run through Griffin and eventually will with a better coach but right now it doesn't nearly enough.
Barkley averages were 20 and 12 on a legit top contender (Moses, Doc and Mo Cheeks) in his second year. Chris Paul is talked about as the best PG in the game?


Besides pace was much faster in the 80's and 90's and the game was so different that it's stupid to compare them like that. Blake has a reduced role due to this being one of the deeper teams in the last decade and he is playing less minutes. His rebounding is down because you have high minute players like Odom dominating the glass. Not to mention he's playing from the high post, midrange area way more than before so he's not in position for 12 rpg.

Blake in his prime will likely be a 25/10/4 type player with very good man D, he just needs another 2-3 years to get to his prime.

I can accept that. But right now he's not where he should be. He came in great with a potential as high as any PF that ever played the game. He shot the three with more confidence and accuracy, he attacked with passion, he was in every game and the opposition wondered if he might have a monster game on him. Blake came in at great magnitude (he averaged a regular year for TD and KG in their prime) at 21 years of age, he's more productive than the top 5 PF of all time at the same age. Three year later he's definitely not as good as KG and TD when they are 36 years old and shadows of themselves. They still are better than him in energy categories - defense and rebounding. That should just not be.

Great players have great games. Average players have an occasional great game. OJ Mayo has more game threads here than Blake does. Blake might have had two or three very good games but I wouldn't call them great - maybe yall will, but you post more than a virus on Facebook (no habit hatin tho) and you don't even create Blake post.


just looking at the # of rebounds tells you very little. He's got DJ and crew sucking up more rebounds these days and he plays less minutes.

If you want to really judge BG you need to watch him play. He pulled a sweet little stepback on Tyson Chandler yesterday that would have been impossible for rookie Blake:applause:



He looks better than the Blake who had 22.5 and 12.5.

look at per 36 and he's been within 1 point each of his seasons. If stats are all you care about then check out the advanced ones and get back to me http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/griffbl01.html


I just want to make this clear. Screw the stats. He doesn't play dominant. He plays very well but way too contained. This stuff about he's smarter and more efficient means very little for his position - it might mean more for ball handlers or defensive cogs. He plays PF, The grit and grind position. What you put in is what other players respect. If his team isn't leading the league in rebounds then 8.5 is simply not good enough.

A dominant player is an aggressive player. He came in with a touch - I don't think its developed like it should have. He came in going after every board with avengence, now he's calculating where the ball will land. He came in a very creative player, now he's fitting in. He used to have great explosive games, now he's a sophisticated role player. And this is progress??? He doesn't have to sacrifice these aspects of his game for the team. He came in dominant, now he's not.

Ibaka is a premier blocker, Gasol, Tim, KG have great all around game, Aldrige and Dirk score, Love shoots, scores and rebounds, Blake is more efficient now than he was in his rookie year. What type of garbage is that? Blake doesn't even have a particular niche anymore.

[Pointguard]

I'm not really agreeing with you. Blake was AWFUL defensively his rookie season. He's became a better defender. His rebounding numbers are down but that probably has to do with Clippers becoming more talented across the board. His scoring hasn't went up like some predicted because he's on competitive teams that have better offensive options, I'm sure if he was on a bottom dweller it would rise just like it did when the Clips got banged up with injuries. His assists are down from his rookie season because a contender like the Clippers probably won't run it's offense through Blake like they did in his rookie season if they want to be contenders.

Since his rookie season he's became a more polished player, better defensively and I'd rather 3rd year Blake Griffin vs rookie Blake Griffin. Rookie Blake Griffin was in a better position to average superior statistics than 3rd year Blake Griffin is what I'm implying.
You Raphiel, ClippersFan, Myth, Duma at least back up what you say. I don't care if we disagree. The thanks was for getting others involved in the process of talking it out.

My point is that the mentality of dominance, or that I belong on the stage in a big way, is much different than the way Blake approaches the game now. As a coach and player you recognize a player for how he sees himself on the court. Blake can have a big game but he isn't very likely to have one. In his rookie year he was much more likely to have a big game.

[ralph_i_el]

You Raphiel, ClippersFan, Myth, Duma at least back up what you say. I don't care if we disagree. The thanks was for getting others involved in the process of talking it out.

My point is that the mentality of dominance, or that I belong on the stage in a big way, is much different than the way Blake approaches the game now. As a coach and player you recognize a player for how he sees himself on the court. Blake can have a big game but he isn't very likely to have one. In his rookie year he was much more likely to have a big game.

I can agree with that. We'll see what happens in the playoffs this year with real expectations

[Clippersfan86]

Pointguard not sure if you watch Blake that often but one HUGE problem is the coach. Blake will regularly have 12 to 15 points in the first half... But inexplicably get 3 shots the entire second half and almost no touches. If we get a better coach, watch Blake blossom. Blake was one of coach K's favorite players and was going to start at PF on the USA team because coach K liked his game and attitude more than love. Melo ended up playing 4 cause of Blake's injury.

[Pointguard]

Pointguard not sure if you watch Blake that often but one HUGE problem is the coach. Blake will regularly have 12 to 15 points in the first half... But inexplicably get 3 shots the entire second half and almost no touches. If we get a better coach, watch Blake blossom. Blake was one of coach K's favorite players and was going to start at PF on the USA team because coach K liked his game and attitude more than love. Melo ended up playing 4 cause of Blake's injury.

No I seen maybe seven games... You and Raphiel are educating me on the finer things. As you do, I disagree with the way he is being used. To me, I really thought BG was going to be the main guy in the league with a lethal post game. I really though he was a lock for HOF with potential to be a top 5 PF. He could have been a bigger and stronger Dominique Wilkins with great rebounding tendencies. But now I'm like he's Vince Carter of the PFs. Can do it all but you won't ever see too much of it.

On the Bulls, instead of Boozer, he might be closer to his potential. But once you go dominant if you leave its not easy to comeback to it. Its rare to see a coach go away from a great talent's strength like this. But he has to claim his greatness. He has to say the boards are mine, the lane is mine, the post - I own it.

[Money 23]

The more they know the game the worse they get. Great Rookie campaigns but it was all south from there. Both were huge athletes at their position with great know-how of doing their thing there, but have both shrunk severely and seemingly know less about themselves and the game. I never seen anything like them. Are they taking an Anti-steriods?

1. Anybody else like them?
2. On what teams could they look like their rookie selves?
3. Have NBA coaches dumbed em down?
1. Don't like Griffin. Puts the ball on the floor too much, non-existent post game, has regressed quite a bit. Love Reke's handle, fun to watch in his rookie season. Both of them as you've said think too much now, and have over-complicated their games.

2. I'd love to have Evans on the Bulls in the absence of Rose. Hell, even with Rose. I don't care if his jumper is suspect, Bulls need another fearless guard who can create off the dribble. Thibs won't put him in shackles on offense. Let him cook in the kitchen, like he did Rose. Plus they were rivals in HS and AAU, let them make each other better through competition.

3. No, NBA coaches have over coached them. They need to keep it simple. Both of them. Blake, learn the basics of post up. How you can go from 22 ppg 12 rpg and regress this much with experience and better teammates is alarming. He's probably their 3rd or 4th best player now, when he should be breaking out.

[Ikill]

Blake's rebounding is the only thing that seemed to have dipped. I think he was more aggressive as a rookie, but overall he is smarter and more efficient.

Blake's first game though dropped my jaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcODpwKFhgU
he's playing with better rebounders thats probably why

[Ikill]

Have you even watched Blake Griffin this have you atleast looked at his stats outside of ppg/rpg/apg stats?

[alwaysunny]

#FreeTyreke

(my first attempt at a hashtag thing)

[ralph_i_el]

1. Don't like Griffin. Puts the ball on the floor too much, non-existent post game, has regressed quite a bit. Love Reke's handle, fun to watch in his rookie season. Both of them as you've said think too much now, and have over-complicated their games.

2. I'd love to have Evans on the Bulls in the absence of Rose. Hell, even with Rose. I don't care if his jumper is suspect, Bulls need another fearless guard who can create off the dribble. Thibs won't put him in shackles on offense. Let him cook in the kitchen, like he did Rose. Plus they were rivals in HS and AAU, let them make each other better through competition.

3. No, NBA coaches have over coached them. They need to keep it simple. Both of them. Blake, learn the basics of post up. How you can go from 22 ppg 12 rpg and regress this much with experience and better teammates is alarming. He's probably their 3rd or 4th best player now, when he should be breaking out.

:facepalm just read back through the rest of this thread and educate yourself

Better teammates sometimes means less stats

[Pointguard]

Have you even watched Blake Griffin this have you atleast looked at his stats outside of ppg/rpg/apg stats?

Less steals, 3pt percentage and makes way down, homers way up and he rarely has a big game. Sorry fellas, if you come into the league impressing everybody, being more productive than the the top four greats at your position and then three years later you rarely have a big game. You simply have not progressed the way you should have. I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.

You all are sitting here telling me he's progressed to the point where he rarely has a big game. Great players have great and dominant games. Not one of you who disagreed with me has made a post about Griffin this year outside of his dunks. I haven't seen a game where I was impressed with him. Most of the games I seen CP3 and Jamal Crawford had the most impact which means there's room underneath for those who want to claim it. Chris Paul is the best pure point guard in the league and rocks an alias of Lob City. A superb shooting guard and the best PG are idea for most big men. He has to get rebounds. The way you all are talking like's he first team all defense. Amazingly, every game I see he's good, but he has no chance of making an all defensive team.

[Clippersfan86]

Less steals, 3pt percentage and makes way down, homers way up and he rarely has a big game. Sorry fellas, if you come into the league impressing everybody, being more productive than the the top four greats at your position and then three years later you rarely have a big game. You simply have not progressed the way you should have. I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.

You all are sitting here telling me he's progressed to the point where he rarely has a big game. Great players have great and dominant games. Not one of you who disagreed with me has made a post about Griffin this year outside of his dunks. I haven't seen a game where I was impressed with him. Most of the games I seen CP3 and Jamal Crawford had the most impact which means there's room underneath for those who want to claim it. Chris Paul is the best pure point guard in the league and rocks an alias of Lob City. A superb shooting guard and the best PG are idea for most big men. He has to get rebounds. The way you all are talking like's he first team all defense. Amazingly, every game I see he's good, but he has no chance of making an all defensive team.

If you need evidence look at the Lebron like stretch Griffin had while CP3 was down the last 3 weeks. He put up something like 23 ppg, 10 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg over 8 games. He's had at least 10 games this year where he has 20 points after 3 quarters but Clippers are blowing a team out by 20 so he doesn't play the 4th. Just lots of variables you need to factor in dude.

1. Way more talent around him, some shot happy guys like Crawford, Butler and Barnes.

2. He's no longer having the offense run through him every play like when he was a rookie. The offense runs through CP3 and when he feeds Blake a lot, Blake still dominates normally.


Blake's defense, shot, free throw shooting and post game are SIGNIFICANTLY improved which is why people are telling you despite the numbers he's progressed a bunch. 3rd year Griffin would destroy 1st year Griffin any day of the week. Like Nuggets said in his rookie year it was Blake and a bunch of okay players. Gordon was great but was injured 30+ games that year.

Not to mention as Nuggetsfan also said (I think he did at least) teams didn't really know how to defend Blake his rookie year. Now scouts and teams are ready for Blake every night so the days of single coverage are over. Teams that single cover Blake all game get demolished. PER 36 Blake is averaging 4 apg and 2 spg which is amazing for a PF.

[Pointguard]

If you need evidence look at the Lebron like stretch Griffin had while CP3 was down the last 3 weeks. He put up something like 23 ppg, 10 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg over 8 games. He's had at least 10 games this year where he has 20 points after 3 quarters but Clippers are blowing a team out by 20 so he doesn't play the 4th. Just lots of variables you need to factor in dude.

1. Way more talent around him, some shot happy guys like Crawford, Butler and Barnes.

2. He's no longer having the offense run through him every play like when he was a rookie. The offense runs through CP3 and when he feeds Blake a lot, Blake still dominates normally.

Tim Duncan plays three less minutes per game and his team plays 12 players double digit minutes. His team has more blowouts. His point guard isn't a great set up PG and in fact is moreso a scoring PG. I know Duncan rebounds more and pretty sure he scores more. He also plays better defense. When KG went to Boston he had better talent around him than Blake did and played the same amount of minutes and was in a different hemisphere defensively. He was more productive in every aspect of the game.



Blake's defense, shot, free throw shooting and post game are SIGNIFICANTLY improved which is why people are telling you despite the numbers he's progressed a bunch. 3rd year Griffin would destroy 1st year Griffin any day of the week. Like Nuggets said in his rookie year it was Blake and a bunch of okay players. Gordon was great but was injured 30+ games that year.

Not to mention as Nuggetsfan also said (I think he did at least) teams didn't really know how to defend Blake his rookie year. Now scouts and teams are ready for Blake every night so the days of single coverage are over. Teams that single cover Blake all game get demolished. PER 36 Blake is averaging 4 apg and 2 spg which is amazing for a PF.

I said that. You're using my help. Which isn't cool because a lot of you came at me.

By mid year Blake was getting doubled his first year. His mentality was more aggressive then so he was feared. With PF's aggression is 9/10th the law unless you are superskilled like Dirk. The Knicks didn't double Blake yesterday and he didn't crush them. His defense wasn't great. He had 4 assist and played 38 minutes. He had a good shooting night and was 17 and 12 in a full games work in a step up game because the rest of the front line (Butler, Odom, Hollins, Turiaf, Jordan) had 7 points in total on few attempts and about the same in rebounds. The Clipper back court was shooting great from three and from two point land. Its an ideal game for a dominant inside player. But it was a regular game I seen from Griffin.

[ralph_i_el]

Tim Duncan plays three less minutes per game and his team plays 12 players double digit minutes. His team has more blowouts. His point guard isn't a great set up PG and in fact is moreso a scoring PG. I know Duncan rebounds more and pretty sure he scores more. He also plays better defense. When KG went to Boston he had better talent around him than Blake did and played the same amount of minutes and was in a different hemisphere defensively. He was more productive in every aspect of the game.



I said that. You're using my help. Which isn't cool because a lot of you came at me.

By mid year Blake was getting doubled his first year. His mentality was more aggressive then so he was feared. With PF's aggression is 9/10th the law unless you are superskilled like Dirk. The Knicks didn't double Blake yesterday and he didn't crush them. His defense wasn't great. He had 4 assist and played 38 minutes. He had a good shooting night and was 17 and 12 in a full games work in a step up game because the rest of the front line (Butler, Odom, Hollins, Turiaf, Jordan) had 7 points in total on few attempts and about the same in rebounds. The Clipper back court was shooting great from three and from two point land. Its an ideal game for a dominant inside player. But it was a regular game I seen from Griffin.

Tony parker begs to differ.

Nobody is trying to say blake is better than prime KG. Timmy D is a top 3 big this year but that has no bearing on how well BG has been playing. Both guys are having great years.

[Clippersfan86]

"Over his past 15 games, Griffin has averaged 4.9 assists, which ranks first among power forwards and centers."

This is astounding for a 3rd year PF who's considered raw and lacking in skills. Dude has the potential to be Barkley like in his prime. Last PF I saw this a passing game this good, this young was Chris Webber.

[devin112]

Third time all star... Op can eat a dikk

[Da KO King]

does YoungGrease still post here? LOL

[Force]

Blake has improved a ton each season. He is so much better now than last year even. Defensively people said he would be a liability. No doubt that he will find his way to the all defense team a few times before he calls it quits.

[ncrizzle]

What position are the kings even playing tyreke? He came in as a PG and i know he has played sg and sf as well. He will probably never have the stats of his rookie year, but injuries and switching positions definitely wont help

[Miles and Miles]

What position are the kings even playing tyreke? He came in as a PG and i know he has played sg and sf as well. He will probably never have the stats of his rookie year, but injuries and switching positions definitely wont help

SG most of the time this year.

[Pointguard]

What position are the kings even playing tyreke? He came in as a PG and i know he has played sg and sf as well. He will probably never have the stats of his rookie year, but injuries and switching positions definitely wont help

If you went to a Clippers/Kings game and told somebody that two guys had the best rookies years in recent memory (20/5/5 and 22/12 something Magic and the 4 best powerforwards didn't do respectively) and only within the past 4 years, it would be confusing to no end. Cousins? Isiah?

Blake probably is a better player but he's got to start getting back to domination mode. I for one never believe, a third best player is dominant - 90% of the time they are sophisticated role players. Everybody has dominant minutes but until dominant games are on the regular - you can't say a player is dominant. Better is only worth something if it is used. And we've seen players (Kareem), lose their taste for rebounding.

Aggression is more than half the story.

Check this and think about it:
Faried, isn't the same player as Blake. Blake is a better player, better skills, more polished, better offensively, better at most things. Faried is the more aggressive player. Faried wins more games for his team - primarily because his niche for rebounding is really needed and he knows his limitations extremely well. Faried outplayed Blake in their last game and Faried is more likely to influence the outcome of the games, primarily because of the way they are used. H2H doesn't mean a lot but Faried still is the player that is more likely to have an explosive game in general and is even more consistent in what you can expect from him. Better without manifestions of being better is most of the time a useless concept.

So I'm not a big fan of Blake's a better player this year while having relatively few outstanding games. Its similar to saying he's better for a few minutes per game - just not the whole game. Excellent players have excellent games. Blake needs to have better games.

[Pointguard]

Tony parker begs to differ.

Nobody is trying to say blake is better than prime KG. Timmy D is a top 3 big this year but that has no bearing on how well BG has been playing. Both guys are having great years.

You know Tony Parker isn't on the level of CP3 in relation as a set up guard.

BG should be better than KG and TD in the hustle aspect of the game (defense and rebounding), and you know he isn't. These guys are five or six years off of their prime and 13 years his senior. Blake's rookie year (points and rebs wise) was like an average year in KG and TD's prime. Three years later TD, is 36 and amazingly has a clear advantage in output. That isn't the way progress looks.

[ralph_i_el]

You know Tony Parker isn't on the level of CP3 in relation as a set up guard.

BG should be better than KG and TD in the hustle aspect of the game (defense and rebounding), and you know he isn't. These guys are five or six years off of their prime and 13 years his senior. Blake's rookie year (points and rebs wise) was like an average year in KG and TD's prime. Three years later TD, is 36 and amazingly has a clear advantage in output. That isn't the way progress looks.

you keep throwing out these hard stat's as proof one guy played better than another. So many things influence a guy's statline. Just watching the games Blake is so much better than he was in his rookie year. If anything you are overrating him by his inflated rookie year stats

[Miles and Miles]

Drop the stats. The Clippers are 37 and 17 and in first place. The Kings are 19 and 33. So Blake is doing fine and Tyreke is not.

[KyrieTheFuture]

"Over his past 15 games, Griffin has averaged 4.9 assists, which ranks first among power forwards and centers."

This is astounding for a 3rd year PF who's considered raw and lacking in skills. Dude has the potential to be Barkley like in his prime. Last PF I saw this a passing game this good, this young was Chris Webber.

I can't even describe how ridiculous it is to compare him to Barkley

[Pointguard]

you keep throwing out these hard stat's as proof one guy played better than another. So many things influence a guy's statline. Just watching the games Blake is so much better than he was in his rookie year. If anything you are overrating him by his inflated rookie year stats
Well name me a great power forward that's 18 and 8?

I was talking about defense and rebounding and you know we don't need stats to see that he's not as good as KG and TD in those categories. Are you seriously trying to tell me he ripping up the league in rebounds? That's he going to get on the all defensive team.

Screw the stats, this is my third time saying that. Its obvious that when he was aggressive teams feared him. Lamar Odom is an example of a player that is cleary better than he was 8 years ago. But without the aggression who cares? Its a mute point. He could change the landscape of his team 8 years ago. Right now, for moments in a game he's all world. But does he have great games now? All I'm asking for are a lot of good games or a good number of great games. This Blake is better but he just doesn't have great games anymore... .

[Al Thornton]

his rebounding numbers are a reflection of his minutes played. he and cp3 sit on the bench more than any superstars in the league.

[Ikill]

Well name me a great power forward that's 18 and 8?

I was talking about defense and rebounding and you know we don't need stats to see that he's not as good as KG and TD in those categories. Are you seriously trying to tell me he ripping up the league in rebounds? That's he going to get on the all defensive team.

Screw the stats, this is my third time saying that. Its obvious that when he was aggressive teams feared him. Lamar Odom is an example of a player that is cleary better than he was 8 years ago. But without the aggression who cares? Its a mute point. He could change the landscape of his team 8 years ago. Right now, for moments in a game he's all world. But does he have great games now? All I'm asking for are a lot of good games or a good number of great games. This Blake is better but he just doesn't have great games anymore... .
Blake is averaging 20.4 9.5 4 1.6 0.7 per 36 57 ts while leading the Clippers to a top 5 defense. He`s a more impactful player now

[Clippersfan86]

Blake is averaging 20.4 9.5 4 1.6 0.7 per 36 57 ts while leading the Clippers to a top 5 defense. He`s a more impactful player now


Yup. 20.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with much much better defense and even efficiency. Hell his free throw shooting continues to climb near 70 percent. We saw that Blake could easily put up monster numbers still when Paul was recently out with injury.

[Pointguard]

Well I hope BG pulls it together. When Rose went out, we really missed him. So we need more stars and I think BG could be one of the brightest. I want to root for Tyreke but he has to be on another team. He too can be very exciting.

[Ikill]

Yup. 20.5 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg with much much better defense and even efficiency. Hell his free throw shooting continues to climb near 70 percent. We saw that Blake could easily put up monster numbers still when Paul was recently out with injury.
He's on his way to fixing all of his major problems he had in his rookie in 3 years (defense free throw shooting jumper). Pointgaurd is right that he doesn't hustle as much for rebounds but that might be why he is better because he has more energy for defense. I would easily take the improved defense over an extra 1-2 rebounds.

[ralph_i_el]

Well name me a great power forward that's 18 and 8?

I was talking about defense and rebounding and you know we don't need stats to see that he's not as good as KG and TD in those categories. Are you seriously trying to tell me he ripping up the league in rebounds? That's he going to get on the all defensive team.

Screw the stats, this is my third time saying that. Its obvious that when he was aggressive teams feared him. Lamar Odom is an example of a player that is cleary better than he was 8 years ago. But without the aggression who cares? Its a mute point. He could change the landscape of his team 8 years ago. Right now, for moments in a game he's all world. But does he have great games now? All I'm asking for are a lot of good games or a good number of great games. This Blake is better but he just doesn't have great games anymore... .

I don't think blake is better than Timmy D and KG's D probably gives him an edge over BG too. But these guys are two of the greatest players to every play the game and Blake's only in his third year. He's a great player, a legitimate allstar, and has improved each year in the league

[FindingTim]

Blake's numbers don't jump off the page as much, but he is a considerably better overall player. He has evolved.
His game is more well-rounded and less out-of-control. He is wiser now.

[Clippersfan86]

He's on his way to fixing all of his major problems he had in his rookie in 3 years (defense free throw shooting jumper). Pointgaurd is right that he doesn't hustle as much for rebounds but that might be why he is better because he has more energy for defense. I would easily take the improved defense over an extra 1-2 rebounds.

Spot on. You always do know your Blake Griffin/Clippers stuff :cheers: .

[Kellogs4toniee]

Oh, so he's more aggressive? He rebounds better? They were worrying about his conditioning his rookie year? He doubts himself now? His presence is no where near what it was his rookie year. Did I miss every good game? Wow, he's more efficient and picks his spots but when he's not aggressive he's overthinking everything.

Please show me another player who came in at 22.5 and 12.5 and looks like Blake two years later. Please, just name me one. He came in with one of the best rookie campaigns from a modern day PF, it was like TD's. When he's aggressive people say he's the same athlete as Lebron. Right now, that seems like some cruel joke. His assertiveness is like a role players. 18 and 8.5??? He was one of the few that had the promise of a post game. 8.5rebs is garbage. I guess yall would know best but trust me, he was feared at one point. I just don't see him getting 30 and 15 I fully expect that from Kevin Love I expect 15 and 8 from Blake - the guy who came in dominant.


I have not read any of the responses past the post above, but I am sure they go along the same kind of reasoning as I am about to list :

His presence is no where near his rookie season? You do realise they won what....... 32 games that season? What great presence that was. Yes, we understand there are many other factors, but the main point is you are the epitome of someone who focuses too much on the box score.

For someone like you, you see decreased stats. For everyone else so far in this thread, we see someone who's minutes decreased from 38 to 32.5 because they have been blowing out teams. A big reason for that is the maturity and improvement in Blakes game. What we also see is the Clippers are on pace for a top three seed this season, versus... 32 games TOTAL when he posted those ridiculous "stats" you mentioned.

:facepalm

[andremiller07]

If Tyreke played for a proper coach, giving him proper mins and a team with floor spacing he would be back to averging his rookie season numbers, hes overall improved as a player and the guys defense is above average.

[Pointguard]

I have not read any of the responses past the post above, but I am sure they go along the same kind of reasoning as I am about to list :

His presence is no where near his rookie season? You do realise they won what....... 32 games that season? What great presence that was. Yes, we understand there are many other factors, but the main point is you are the epitome of someone who focuses too much on the box score.

For someone like you, you see decreased stats. For everyone else so far in this thread, we see someone who's minutes decreased from 38 to 32.5 because they have been blowing out teams. A big reason for that is the maturity and improvement in Blakes game. What we also see is the Clippers are on pace for a top three seed this season, versus... 32 games TOTAL when he posted those ridiculous "stats" you mentioned.

:facepalm

Sorry for the folks who read my other post. I was going to let it go but I hate the facepalm emoticon.



Blake doesn't rebound on a team that needs it. No Boxscore.

His guards are among the best in the league which open things up. No Boxscore.

He has has the best set up guard in the league - lob city. He should be better. No Boxscore.

He isn't as aggressive despite playing less minutes. No Boxscore.

He has declined in scoring and rebounding in the per 36 minutes played - your excuse above does not apply. Chris Paul will likely lead the league in two categories same minutes played as Blake. Larry Sanders leads the league in blocks while playing 7 less minutes than Blake. Jamal Crawford will win 6th man of the year. DH leads the league in rebounding and he's playing only 2 more minutes per game... .

Manimal is a better rebounder, despite player 3 less minutes and is a game changer - Denver might catch the Clippers as they had a tougher schedule to this point.

Blake turns the ball over more and commits more fouls per 36 than 2 years ago.

His FT% is a tiny bit better but it should be better.

He had a better touch from 3 in his rookie year. No Boxscore.

He had a lot of very good games in his rookie year. He rarely has one now. No Boxscore

Most great players had to play less minutes - its just an excuse. No Boxscore

And he's not making any all team defenses. No bosxcore

Lamar Odom is a better player than he was six years ago but he doesn't have the aggression to implement it. If Wade doesn't attack the basket his game if vastly inferior no matter how he fine tunes other things. Figure it out. No Boxscore

By nature you grow, knowing the game better you automatically are suppose to be sharper. But you have to blend that in with aggression. No Boxscore

Great players have great games. Players operate in the context of the game. Players usually have some manifest of improvement. He doesn't show much of that at all. Several of you have said defense and I'll go along with that despite seeing several blown assignments against the Knicks. He may fit in better but that is something we say about role players. No boxscore.

[Clippersfan86]

Sorry for the folks who read my other post. I was going to let it go but I hate the facepalm emoticon.



Blake doesn't rebound on a team that needs it. No Boxscore.

His guards are among the best in the league which open things up. No Boxscore.

He has has the best set up guard in the league - lob city. He should be better. No Boxscore.

He isn't as aggressive despite playing less minutes. No Boxscore.

He has declined in scoring and rebounding in the per 36 minutes played - your excuse above does not apply. Chris Paul will likely lead the league in two categories same minutes played as Blake. Larry Sanders leads the league in blocks while playing 7 less minutes than Blake. Jamal Crawford will win 6th man of the year. DH leads the league in rebounding and he's playing only 2 more minutes per game... .

Manimal is a better rebounder, despite player 3 less minutes and is a game changer - Denver might catch the Clippers as they had a tougher schedule to this point.

Blake turns the ball over more and commits more fouls per 36 than 2 years ago.

His FT% is a tiny bit better but it should be better.

He had a better touch from 3 in his rookie year. No Boxscore.

He had a lot of very good games in his rookie year. He rarely has one now. No Boxscore

Most great players had to play less minutes - its just an excuse. No Boxscore

And he's not making any all team defenses. No bosxcore

Lamar Odom is a better player than he was six years ago but he doesn't have the aggression to implement it. If Wade doesn't attack the basket his game if vastly inferior no matter how he fine tunes other things. Figure it out. No Boxscore

By nature you grow, knowing the game better you automatically are suppose to be sharper. But you have to blend that in with aggression. No Boxscore

Great players have great games. Players operate in the context of the game. Players usually have some manifest of improvement. He doesn't show much of that at all. Several of you have said defense and I'll go along with that despite seeing several blown assignments against the Knicks. He may fit in better but that is something we say about role players. No boxscore.

I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in only 29 minutes.


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only 29 minutes.


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 10 assists, 4 steals in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just 28 minutes.


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just 28 minutes.



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.

[Pointguard]

1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.

He's 39th in the league in rebounds per 48 minutes. 21 overall. Its not ok.



3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.

Haha, lob shiddy. But he's Chris Paul dammit. Best passing game controlling pg.



4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.
I never argued against this.



5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .

Haha, I brought that up because you two were acting like he was Einstein now and had an all knowing eye after he evolved from his cave man activities in his rookie year. On the real his rookie year he got those fouls trying to dunk people into the hoop. So he was being aggressive. Now he amazingly fouls himself and flops when point guards hollar at him - ok that was a joke. I never had a problem with his defense being better.



6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.

HE'S SHOOTING 65% IN Feb!



8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.

Blake came in the league with superstar written all on him and on the fence of being there. There are usually only 7 Superstars, at most, in the league. Its never going to be an 18 and 8 guy that is arguably the third best player on his team. Crawford has more impact on that team and he isn't a superstar.



If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.

I was being nice. Trust me, really nice. But you getting a little carried away with it. I said I was learning the finer things about Blake, not the bigger things about Blake. In the many responses here you guys haven't advanced the argument beyond that he's better defensively and his middle game is better. BUT, he obviously is in a diminished role with less production. The SUPER STAR tendency is to grow in responsibility, role, impact and production. He's in reverse. He's growing in his diminished role because nature demands it. He's not maturing toward his superstar potential. You guys here just have low expectations and are ok with small regular player increments.

You are on a cloud if you think he's a superstar.

The guy came into the league more impressively than Barkley. Blake came into the league much more impressive than an older Karl Malone was when he came into the league. A younger KG wasn't really good at anything, but by the time he was BG;s age, he already is one of the most versatile players in the game ever, some of that was natural progression. Charles Barkley two years after coming into the league is a straight up Superstar. In two years Karl Malone is an all out Beast that knows and USES all of his strengths. The distance those guys covered in two years is light years above what Blake has accomplished. They matured into their superstar potential.

Faried, is a much more limited player role player that came in with much lower expectations. His improvements are obvious from year one to year two. I saw him have more impact in a game than Blake based solely on his aggression. Faried's team won that game and Faried was a big reason why. It didn't surprise anybody here because they kind of expect it.

Blake came in blazing now he's a controllable fire.

[Clippersfan86]

Blake came in blazing on a team that won 32 games (only won that much because of a dominant January) and he was unknown to opposing teams. It's common sense that teams after 2.5 years will learn how to defend him more efficiently. That being said his minutes adjusted numbers aren't far off his previous years and his actual skill set is significantly better. Once we shed the dead weight of ball hogs like Butler and Blake continues developing watch his game take off. 2.5 seasons isn't enough to throw in the towel on a big man who's been a deserving all star every single year.

Bro did you just say Crawford's impact>Griffin's? If so I don't even need to argue with you, you've already failed and everybody even non Clippers fans would laugh at this.

[Whoah10115]

hah funny to watch that video.

The main thing that came to mind watching it was:

"No one in that game any idea how to guard Griffin."

People severely underestimate how much it inhibits players once teams start game planning for them. If teams still played Griffin in that clueless way he'd be dropping 30 a night.

Players improve but defenses improve with them so sometimes it looks like they are less effective stats-wise but they are putting more and more pressure on the defense.

I think Griffin is especially affected by this bc of the spectacular nature of his game. Guys are hyper-aware of him because they don't want to get embarrassed.


:applause:

[Ikill]

I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in only 29 minutes.


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only 29 minutes.


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 10 assists, 4 steals in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just 28 minutes.


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just 28 minutes.



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.
good post

[The Nets]

Very solid comparison, I did not pay much attention to Tyreke before but now I am astonished at the similarity between him and Blake Griffin. Both have been declining rapidly after peaking at their rookie seasons. Blake Griffin is fast declining at a rate of 2ppg, 2rpg each season, Tyreke is more unpredictable though.

[ralph_i_el]

Very solid comparison, I did not pay much attention to Tyreke before but now I am astonished at the similarity between him and Blake Griffin. Both have been declining rapidly after peaking at their rookie seasons. Blake Griffin is fast declining at a rate of 2ppg, 2rpg each season, Tyreke is more unpredictable though.

OH NO IN 4 YEARS HE'LL SCORE 10 POINTS AND 0 REBOUNDS! In 15 minutes:roll:

[Pointguard]

Blake came in blazing on a team that won 32 games (only won that much because of a dominant January) and he was unknown to opposing teams. It's common sense that teams after 2.5 years will learn how to defend him more efficiently.
While scouting reports figure a player out, the stars spend their first three years getting and improving on the previous year. Non stars fade back. Dwight wasn't that polished his second and third year but he improved and got more productive each year.


That being said his minutes adjusted numbers aren't far off his previous years and his actual skill set is significantly better. Once we shed the dead weight of ball hogs like Butler and Blake continues developing watch his game take off. 2.5 seasons isn't enough to throw in the towel on a big man who's been a deserving all star every single year.


Blake is exciting and he's got on the allstar team on that bases and injuries this year.

Duncan and David Lee do everything better than Blake and more ingrained to their teams.

If Dirk was healthy he too would be ahead of Blake. As would a healthy Kevin Love who is way more active and means more to his team's success.

Those on the same level:

A healthy Gasol is usually a more productive player and is definitely more polished which is what you call better. He's a better offensive player overall, post player, rebounder and defensive player,

Aldridge does everything well and is a better post defender

Zach Randolph is in the argument.

I will say an aggressive Blake has the potential to be better than all of them but as of now, his exciting play from his rookie year is getting him in favor.

[Clippersfan86]

Dirk's putting up 14 and 6 this year.. healthy or not he's declining and has no case. Duncan is a center first off, second off he did play well enough to get in but he isn't as much better than Griffin as you're making it seem. 17/10/3/3 vs 18.5, 8.5, 3.5,1.5.

Spurs and Clippers both have a top 3 record in the league. David Lee is NOT better than Blake Griffin and has a much lower impact. He's got nicer offensive numbers than Blake but he's a pretty terrible defender, plays more minutes and plays on a far worse team. Aldridge is on a team that's barely hanging onto the 8 seed and again isn't a better individual player than Blake despite more minutes and a bigger role giving him better stats. Love may be better but didn't play hardly at all this year, so it's idiotic to play the what if game. Zbo has zero case over Blake this year or any year of Blake's career.

Basically Blake is the 2nd best all around PF in the league after a healthy Love. Couple guys have a little better stats but on a per minute basis, efficiency factored and minutes factored Blake is a cream of the crop PF this year. Next year he's going to be even better. Blake Griffin is no doubt the most exciting and all star games are all about this and popularity but he's deserving nonetheless.

[Pointguard]

Dirk's putting up 14 and 6 this year.. healthy or not he's declining and has no case. Duncan is a center first off, second off he did play well enough to get in but he isn't as much better than Griffin as you're making it seem. 17/10/3/3 vs 18.5, 8.5, 3.5,1.5.

You know full well Duncan knows the game and plays it on a whole different level.


Spurs and Clippers both have a top 3 record in the league. David Lee is NOT better than Blake Griffin and has a much lower impact. He's got nicer offensive numbers than Blake but he's a pretty terrible defender, plays more minutes and plays on a far worse team. Aldridge is on a team that's barely hanging onto the 8 seed and again isn't a better individual player than Blake despite more minutes and a bigger role giving him better stats. Love may be better but didn't play hardly at all this year, so it's idiotic to play the what if game. Zbo has zero case over Blake this year or any year of Blake's career.


Its not idiotic if you know how to read.

David Lee's team was right there with the Clippers before Bogut joined the team. And he was their only consistent player and their best player. His teammates are categorically WAAAAY worse in every position than the Clippers. So Lee really carried a team that was only like three games behind the Clippers.


Blake, simply put, is not where he should be. If he was a bad player I would simply say well - he's better. But since he a man of great potential its better to measure him with a higher bar - more responsibilities, bigger role, more production, bigger impact - almost none of that applies! Come on now!

The guy is the second most impressive athlete in the game. He rebounded like a top three guy in his first year. He looked like he was capable of being the premier post up guy in the league. Top rookie campaign for a PF. He should be a top 3 player and most definitely can be. As of right now he's definitely not top 10.

[Clippersfan86]

You know full well Duncan knows the game and plays it on a whole different level.


Its not idiotic if you know how to read.

David Lee's team was right there with the Clippers before Bogut joined the team. And he was their only consistent player and their best player. His teammates are categorically WAAAAY worse in every position than the Clippers. So Lee really carried a team that was only like three games behind the Clippers.


Blake, simply put, is not where he should be. If he was a bad player I would simply say well - he's better. But since he a man of great potential its better to measure him with a higher bar - more responsibilities, bigger role, more production, bigger impact - almost none of that applies! Come on now!

The guy is the second most impressive athlete in the game. He rebounded like a top three guy in his first year. He looked like he was capable of being the premier post up guy in the league. Top rookie campaign for a PF. He should be a top 3 player and most definitely can be. As of right now he's definitely not top 10.

Duncan is a legend but to say right now he plays it on a whole different level than newer generation top PF's is a great exaggeration. First off he's been a center for 7 years predominantly as I said and second off he's having superb year but don't act like he's the clear cut best bigman of the ones mentioned because it's debatable. Blake is where he should be if you actually watch basketball games and not Basketball Reference.

Blake's skillset has evolved to the point to where if you put him on a bad team again as THE man... no doubt he could easily average 23+ ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg and 1.5 spg. The only things stopping him from that are the things i mentioned. So much depth and talent surrounding him that he doesn't get nearly as many shots as he did his rookie year. Also he's needed to hit the jumper more than before so he's out of position on rebounds more often.

Then you factor in that when you put 100 percent more energy into defense it's not as easy to go all out crashing the boards. No player in the NBA gives 100 percent effort on offense, defense AND rebounding all the time. You have to learn to take it easy in one facet until you need to turn it on and for Blake that's rebounding lately due to the fact that there is less of a need currently. He's our 3rd best playmaker on the team and despite the numbers he's our 2nd best rebounder to Odom. Most reliable scoring option on the team. One of our best defenders.

I don't think you are understanding the concept of intangibles. Blake's impact on the team is MASSIVE. He's constantly drawing double teams and creating for teammates and that alone regularly swings games.

[ralph_i_el]

BG having a big game 20 points in the first

[ZaaaaaH]

I was trying to reason with you.. but since you want to boxscore watch I guess I'm going to have to educate you a bit more. I don't think you understand what playing 6 minutes less per game on a MUCH more talented team does to numbers. Nonetheless I'll post some great games he's had. For the first month or so of the season he was banged up with a few injuries but after that he really picked it up.


Nov 17th vs the Bulls: 26 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals and a block in only 33 minutes of play.


Dec 3rd vs the Jazz: 30 points, 11 rebounds, 1 steal in 37 minutes of play.


Dec 8th vs the Suns: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in only 29 minutes.


Dec 23rd vs the Suns: 23 points, 11 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 steals, 1 block in 31 minutes.


Jan 4th vs the Lakers: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal in only 29 minutes.


Jan 5th vs the Warriors: 20 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals in just 30 minutes.


Jan 12th vs the Magic: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 1 block in 35 minutes.


Jan 21st vs the Warriors: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, 1 block in 41 minutes.


Jan 22nd vs the Thunder: 31 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals and a block in 36 minutes.


Jan 26th vs the Blazers: 24 points, 8 rebounds, 10 assists, 4 steals in 38 minutes.


Jan 27th vs the Blazers: 23 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals in just 28 minutes.


Jan 30th vs the Wolves: 26 points, 13 rebounds, 3 steals in 36 minutes.


Feb 3rd vs the Celtics: 20 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists in 36 minutes.


Feb 11th vs the Sixers: 20 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal in just 28 minutes.



Notice anything? Sure not as many 30 point games but way more balance with big steals numbers and all around stats in LESS minutes. To get those 30+ point games often his rookie year Blake was logging over 38 minutes a game, 7th most in the NBA if I recall. Now that we got that out of the way let me pick apart your other points.


1. Blake does rebound and his PER 36 rebound rate is over 10 which is fine for a PF playing on a team with guys like Odom and DJ who have very good rebound rates. Not to mention Turiaf and Hollins are good per minute rebounders this year.


2. His guards are among the best and all of them are ball dominant guards who either A. take a lot of shots or B. handle the ball a ton. When Billups and CP3 were both out Blake put up better stats than ever before in his career for about a two week stretch.


3. Chris Paul is FAR from the best set up guard in terms of lobs. Baron Davis threw him twice the lobs and Chris Paul often is afraid to throw lobs for fear of a turnover. He CONSTANTLY misses Blake on the spin lob.


4. Blake's motor is still high but as he's matured he's learned to tone it down. Not to mention his rookie year he put ZERO energy into defense, now he puts nearly as much into it as offense so not sure what the aggression comment is based on besides you watching him maybe 5 times.


5. This comment about him fouling more often is actually in direct contradiction to your previous comment that his aggression is down. The reason his fouls are up is because he actually plays good defense now and is MORE aggressive. Who would have thought :hammerhead: .


6. FT shooting is actually significantly better. Again I can tell you're boxscore watching because you're looking at total percentage rather than the deeper story here. Beyond that a jump of over 1 percent and climbing is worth noting and still counts. He shot 70 percent in January for the entire month and has been very reliable from the line lately compared to previous seasons.


7. You really wanted to bring up 3 point shooting bro? He's pretty much only ever attempted 3's as a bailout with the clock expiring. Anything he hits or misses has primarily been luck because that's not a shot he normally takes. Sample size is too small and even if he is somehow a worse three point shooter, it doesn't matter for a PF who never attempts them. What's more important is he's become a decently reliable MIDRANGE shooter.


8. No superstars or perennial all stars in the NBA that aren't old play less minutes than Griffin or CP3. EVERYBODY else plays heavier minutes than these two and every top 15 player in the NBA regularly hits 38+ minutes, these guys rarely do. So no the reduced minutes isn't an excuse, it's a fact.


9. So because he's not going to get elected to an all NBA defensive team this year it means his defensive improvement is negligible? Bro I don't think you understand he's not just marginally better defensively. He's went from atrocious, invisible defender to "very solid" or "good" one in just two seasons.


If you need any other education on Clippers players let me know. The only thing I ask is PLEASE don't base such strong opinions on your limited viewing and then right paragraphs ripping a player with false shit.

CP3 is never "Afraid" he just doesn't want to gamble and tries to get better setup play.

Everything else Great post

[ZaaaaaH]

He's 39th in the league in rebounds per 48 minutes. 21 overall. Its not ok.


Haha, lob shiddy. But he's Chris Paul dammit. Best passing game controlling pg.


I never argued against this.



Haha, I brought that up because you two were acting like he was Einstein now and had an all knowing eye after he evolved from his cave man activities in his rookie year. On the real his rookie year he got those fouls trying to dunk people into the hoop. So he was being aggressive. Now he amazingly fouls himself and flops when point guards hollar at him - ok that was a joke. I never had a problem with his defense being better.



HE'S SHOOTING 65% IN Feb!


Blake came in the league with superstar written all on him and on the fence of being there. There are usually only 7 Superstars, at most, in the league. Its never going to be an 18 and 8 guy that is arguably the third best player on his team. Crawford has more impact on that team and he isn't a superstar.



I was being nice. Trust me, really nice. But you getting a little carried away with it. I said I was learning the finer things about Blake, not the bigger things about Blake. In the many responses here you guys haven't advanced the argument beyond that he's better defensively and his middle game is better. BUT, he obviously is in a diminished role with less production. The SUPER STAR tendency is to grow in responsibility, role, impact and production. He's in reverse. He's growing in his diminished role because nature demands it. He's not maturing toward his superstar potential. You guys here just have low expectations and are ok with small regular player increments.

You are on a cloud if you think he's a superstar.

The guy came into the league more impressively than Barkley. Blake came into the league much more impressive than an older Karl Malone was when he came into the league. A younger KG wasn't really good at anything, but by the time he was BG;s age, he already is one of the most versatile players in the game ever, some of that was natural progression. Charles Barkley two years after coming into the league is a straight up Superstar. In two years Karl Malone is an all out Beast that knows and USES all of his strengths. The distance those guys covered in two years is light years above what Blake has accomplished. They matured into their superstar potential.

Faried, is a much more limited player role player that came in with much lower expectations. His improvements are obvious from year one to year two. I saw him have more impact in a game than Blake based solely on his aggression. Faried's team won that game and Faried was a big reason why. It didn't surprise anybody here because they kind of expect it.

Blake came in blazing now he's a controllable fire.



:facepalm

Then who Odom?