LeBron is just as good a defender as prime Scottie Pippen

[Joey3000]

I watched Pippen play and he was a first class defender.

Ive also watched Lebron play and he to is a first class defender.

For people to say Pippen was light years ahead of James on the defensive end is not only a overstatment, it has no basis. Lebron (and wade by the way) terrorize players who or on a fast break. His come from behind blocks are only rivaled by Wade.

[(e)]

Going on record eh? And who are you suppose to be?

[LikeABosh]

Lebron took a while to fully develop as a defender but right now he's as good as Pippen ever was.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I mean if "Joey3000" is willing to go on record that really means a lot

the media backlash could be crazy

[Joey3000]

Going on record eh? And who are you suppose to be?

Yo Moma

[Joey3000]

I mean if "Joey3000" is willing to go on record that really means a lot

the media backlash could be crazy

So you disagree?

[TheMan]

Who the fakk was Prime Pippeb?

[(e)]

Lol this clown

[DuMa]

Lebron will never have that Pippen's role where he is totally committed to defense on every possession to the point where he has another player capable of carrying the offensive load like MJ did. Wade is slowly past his prime so he is not that guy anymore. So even if LeBron is as good as Pippen is (I dont think he is yet), he will never be given the opportunity to show it. At least i hope not because Miami would be severely misusing him if that were the case.

[(e)]

Breaking news everyone, Joey3000 has gone on record.

Full story later tonight.

[imdaman99]

a prime pibb you say?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110101004348/jackyman225/images/b/b7/Mr_pibb.jpg

i dont really remember pibb, anyone else? was it kinda like dr pepper?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Did Pippen ever allow somebody to average 31 pts on a 55/40/84 line on him in the Finals?

[Joey3000]

Did Pippen ever allow somebody to average 31 pts on a 55/40/84 line on him in the Finals?


What year was that?

[kenny817]

Did Pippen ever allow somebody to average 31 pts on a 55/40/84 line on him in the Finals?

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kenny817]

What year was that?


Ummm...last year in The Finals

noob

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What year was that?

'about 8 months ago :confusedshrug:

[kenny817]

a prime pibb you say?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110101004348/jackyman225/images/b/b7/Mr_pibb.jpg

i dont really remember pibb, anyone else? was it kinda like dr pepper?

Yep exactly like Dr. Pepper just a different name

[jimmy77x]

If you can go 2 weeks without picking up a personal foul, sorry thats not defense, his is average at best. He's protected by the league :sleeping :sleeping next.

[SyRyanYang]

Breaking news everyone, Joey3000 has gone on record.

Full story later tonight.
:roll:

[arifgokcen]

Lebron will never have that Pippen's role where he is totally committed to defense on every possession to the point where he has another player capable of carrying the offensive load like MJ did. Wade is slowly past his prime so he is not that guy anymore. So even if LeBron is as good as Pippen is (I dont think he is yet), he will never be given the opportunity to show it. At least i hope not because Miami would be severely misusing him if that were the case.
Agreed he is very close to pippen though when engaged even durant struggles to score on him.

[Joey3000]

Ummm...last year in The Finals

noob


First of all, u are delusional if u think anybody "IN THE HISTORY" of the game can gaurd or slow down Durant. A team effort would force him to get someone lese on the team involved. Durant would roast any defender, u name them: Jordan, Pippen, James, Kobe.. etc. Dude is just a beast.

[Joey3000]

Loooook you scumbags:

Lebron is just as good as Pippen on the defensive end. Stop making up myths about past players whom most of you never seen play.

[chips93]

Loooook you scumbags:

Lebron is just as good as Pippen on the defensive end. Stop making up myths about past players whom most of you never seen play.

people are only making fun of you because you take yourself so seriously as to make a thread, and 'go on the record' about your boring opinions

do you really think that you're that important, that people need to know, who you consider a better defender?

[Joey3000]

people are only making fun of you because you take yourself so seriously as to make a thread, and 'go on the record' about your boring opinions

do you really think that you're that important, that people need to know, who you consider a better defender?


Well im kinda a big deal.

[pauk]

Did Pippen ever allow somebody to average 31 pts on a 55/40/84 line on him in the Finals?

I thought the 90s was a weak era? :)

Battier mostly defended Durant, not like Lebron didnt defend him aswell but Durant as a pure shooting perimeter player at almost 7 feet is impossible to stop from shooting anyways..... Pippen never defended someone like that at his position in any of his finals, not even close... neither did he ever defend a perimeter player of that caliber or better at all in the Finals..... except for one guy you could say, Magic Johnson and with only Pippen & Jordan guarding him Magic averaged almost a 20 point triple double in that Finals as far as i remember...

Lebron & Pippen had very similar defense, especially when speaking of versatility... nobody could guard basically all positions as well as they could... but the biggest reason to why i lean more towards Pippen defensively is because his complementary role allowed him to work more as a defensive specialist than Lebron, as in he was able to focus more of his energy on defending than Lebron as this god called Jordan had his back completely on the offensive side (and even chipped in defensively aswell)....

[NumberSix]

Yeah, but Pippen creeps through the fog with his saggin' deuce.

[Whoah10115]

Lebron has only one season and two playoff runs played at that all-time elite defensive level. He was great his last two years in Cleveland, his first season in Miami, and has been very good this year.


And, even in that season and two playoff runs, he's not as good as Pippen.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I thought the 90s was a weak era? :)

Battier mostly defended Durant, not like Lebron didnt defend him aswell but Durant as a pure shooting perimeter player at almost 7 feet is impossible to stop from shooting anyways..... Pippen never defended someone like that at his position in any of his finals, not even close... neither did he ever defend a perimeter player of that caliber or better at all in the Finals..... except for one guy you could say, Magic Johnson and with only Pippen & Jordan guarding him Magic averaged almost a 20 point triple double in that Finals as far as i remember...

Lebron & Pippen had very similar defense, especially when speaking of versatility... nobody could guard basically all positions as well as they could... but the biggest reason to why i lean more towards Pippen is defensively is because his complementary role allowed him to work more as a defensive specialist than Lebron, as in he was able to focus more of his energy on defending than Lebron as this god called Jordan had his back completely on the offensive side (and even chipped in defensively aswell)....

So who did Lebron guard in the Finals? and how can I take him seriously as a defensive legend if hes not actually guarding anybody worth a damn in the most important games of the season? What good is Lebron being able to allegedly guard so many different positions if his team is getting killed by Rondo, then Dwight, then Dirk then Durant?

[(e)]

Well im kinda a big joke.
fixed

[NumberSix]

Lebron has only one season and two playoff runs played at that all-time elite defensive level. He was great his last two years in Cleveland, his first season in Miami, and has been very good this year.


And, even in that season and two playoff runs, he's not as good as Pippen.
People love using the rules changes against offense, but you have to do so for defense as well. defenders in Pippen's era had much more leeway with what they could do to the offensive player.

LeBron does a fantastic job staying in front of players with his feet and his team defense is beyond Pippen's. If LeBron could hand check a moving offensive player, he's be as effective or more so of a man2man defender than Pippen.

[pauk]

People love using the rules changes against offense, but you have to do so for defense as well. defenders in Pippen's era had much more leeway with what they could do to the offensive player.

LeBron does a fantastic job staying in front of players with his feet and his team defense is beyond Pippen's. If LeBron could hand check a moving offensive player, he's be as effective or more so of a man2man defender than Pippen.

Unfortunately this is true, hand-checking did wonders for defenders.

[NumberSix]

So who did Lebron guard in the Finals? and how can I take him seriously as a defensive legend if hes not actually guarding anybody worth a damn in the most important games of the season? What good is Lebron being able to allegedly guard so many different positions if he's team is getting killed by Rondo, then Dwight, then Dirk then Durant?
Uhh, 3x scoring champ Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook. James Harden. Ibaka at times.

[AlphaWolf24]

Who the fakk was Prime Pippeb?


that's Pip's lil twin Brother......Byron Pippen...aka Pippeb...played at Stonewood AL. junior college


You know in the Movies there is always 1 twin who doesn't get all the good gene's, and doesn't get all the fame like the other one...

Scottie went on to become a NBA superstar......Bron went on to work in automotive sales..

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr320/BruceBlitz/pip_zps1e173e52.jpg



(was I trying too hard?...oh well I gave it a shot)

[Lord Leoshes]

Pippen was allowed to handcheck his opponents, while Lebron is not.
If Lebron with his strength was allowed to handcheck people the way Pippen skinny ass was allowed to then Lebron would probably be better then even Jordan on the defensive side of the ball cause Jordan handchecked just as much as Pippin.

[NumberSix]

that's Pip's lil twin Brother......Byron Pippen...aka Pippeb


You know in the Movies there is always 1 twin who doesn't get all the good gene's, and doesn't get all the fame like the other one...

Scottie went on to become a NBA superstar......Bron went on to work in automotive sales..

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr320/BruceBlitz/pip_zps1e173e52.jpg



(was I trying too hard?...oh well I gave it a shot)
http://apexselfdefense.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/pippylongstocking.jpg

[Joey3000]

fixed


OK now get off my nutts, this debate is getting interesting.

[imdaman99]

So who did Lebron guard in the Finals? and how can I take him seriously as a defensive legend if hes not actually guarding anybody worth a damn in the most important games of the season? What good is Lebron being able to allegedly guard so many different positions if his team is getting killed by Rondo, then Dwight, then Dirk then Durant?
lebron locked up kendrick perkins, changed the series in the heats favor :bowdown:
we never heard from perkins again :eek:

[lebeast666]

Did Pippen ever allow somebody to average 31 pts on a 55/40/84 line on him in the Finals?


Did Prime pippen avg 30/10/7 in finals while guarding opponents best player

[imdaman99]

Did Prime pippen avg 30/10/7 in finals while guarding opponents best player
i dunno but i dont think perkins is the thunders best player. neither is ibaka :confusedshrug:

[Whoah10115]

I thought the 90s was a weak era? :)

Battier mostly defended Durant, not like Lebron didnt defend him aswell but Durant as a pure shooting perimeter player at almost 7 feet is impossible to stop from shooting anyways..... Pippen never defended someone like that at his position in any of his finals, not even close... neither did he ever defend a perimeter player of that caliber or better at all in the Finals..... except for one guy you could say, Magic Johnson and with only Pippen & Jordan guarding him Magic averaged almost a 20 point triple double in that Finals as far as i remember...

Lebron & Pippen had very similar defense, especially when speaking of versatility... nobody could guard basically all positions as well as they could... but the biggest reason to why i lean more towards Pippen defensively is because his complementary role allowed him to work more as a defensive specialist than Lebron, as in he was able to focus more of his energy on defending than Lebron as this god called Jordan had his back completely on the offensive side (and even chipped in defensively aswell)....



That's such a backhanded compliment. You take Pippen because his complementary role allowed him to do more on defense?


Take him because all of what makes Lebron so good on defense, Pippen could do while anchoring a team. I've never seen, outside of Pippen, a perimeter player anchor a defense. I've a perimeter player be the lead dog on defense and even be the leader of the defense, but Pippen did all the roaming around Lebron did, while being responsible for tying things up at the team's defensive core. A mix between Garnett and LeBron.


And Pippen did it every year. LeBron's defense has been great over the last 5 seasons, but it hasn't been all-time for all of it...not outside of last season and the last two playoff runs.


LeBron's advantage over Pippen, on defense, is that he could guard a big guy better in the post...and most of that is related to his ball-denial.

[lebeast666]

i dunno but i dont think perkins is the thunders best player. neither is ibaka :confusedshrug:

Lebron guarded KD more than KD guarded Lebron. It aint hard for the leading scorer in the league to avg 31 when he aint doing shit on the other end

[NumberSix]

lebron locked up kendrick perkins, changed the series in the heats favor :bowdown:
we never heard from perkins again :eek:
Look, I'm as relentless a LeBron homer as anyone, but I'm not going to brag about LeBron shutting down Kendrick Perkins of all people.

[ILLsmak]

This thread is worthwhile due to the title typo.

-Smak

[fpliii]

IMO definitely not (for now at least), Pippen is the best non-big defender in league history (and arguably top 10 in overall impact). LeBron definitely was the best offensive/defensive player (+ rebounder) in last year's run and is one of the elite/more versatile defenders in the game today, but Pippen was on another level.


That's such a backhanded compliment. You take Pippen because his complementary role allowed him to do more on defense?


Take him because all of what makes Lebron so good on defense, Pippen could do while anchoring a team. I've never seen, outside of Pippen, a perimeter player anchor a defense. I've a perimeter player be the lead dog on defense and even be the leader of the defense, but Pippen did all the roaming around Lebron did, while being responsible for tying things up at the team's defensive core. A mix between Garnett and LeBron.


And Pippen did it every year. LeBron's defense has been great over the last 5 seasons, but it hasn't been all-time for all of it...not outside of last season and the last two playoff runs.


LeBron's advantage over Pippen, on defense, is that he could guard a big guy better in the post...and most of that is related to his ball-denial.

This, great point.

Arguably the leading playmaker too, depending on which season(s) we're talking about (Jordan was the better player and had a greater impact, but Pippen was superior in terms of pure team value).

[Joey3000]

That's such a backhanded compliment. You take Pippen because his complementary role allowed him to do more on defense?


Take him because all of what makes Lebron so good on defense, Pippen could do while anchoring a team. I've never seen, outside of Pippen, a perimeter player anchor a defense. I've a perimeter player be the lead dog on defense and even be the leader of the defense, but Pippen did all the roaming around Lebron did, while being responsible for tying things up at the team's defensive core. A mix between Garnett and LeBron.


And Pippen did it every year. LeBron's defense has been great over the last 5 seasons, but it hasn't been all-time for all of it...not outside of last season and the last two playoff runs.


LeBron's advantage over Pippen, on defense, is that he could guard a big guy better in the post...and most of that is related to his ball-denial.


Who anchors Miami's Defense?

Miami has a great defensive team with week bigs.

[andgar923]

Pippen was quicker to the ball and had a higher defensive IQ. While Bron may have been taller Pip was longer and had a better reach.

To be fair, Pip also played in an era that allowed him to hover and stay in the paint, Bron doesn't have this luxury.

But it was also harder on Pip since he had to fight through more screens since ball movement was far more common. Isolation has always been part of the game no doubt, but there is more now than it was back then. Combine that with the physical play (YES even defenders got roughed up) Pip had it harder.

Pip also had to guard true big men in the post, when post players actually existed. He didn't get bailed out by big men trying to be guards shooting bad shots as much as Pip did. Somebody like Larry Johnson in his prime would do Bron just as nasty as he did Pip (perhaps worse).

It's easy to forget how great of a defender Pip was, but Bron still lacks some key elements that made Pip the better defender.

[Graviton]

Who anchors Miami's Defense?

Miami has a great defensive team with week bigs.
Heat's defense doesn't rely on post presence or shot blocking, they use quickness and lightning fast rotations to force turnovers, they aggressively double on pick n rolls and use traps to frustrate the main ball handler and speed everything up to create those turnovers,

For that kind of defense they need mobile bigs that can switch and recover, as well as contest and alter shots. Bosh and Joel are perfect in their system. They are great defenders, there is nothing weak about them. A lineup of Chalmers, Wade, LeBron, Battier and Bosh is a nightmare when locked in, your size becomes a liability vs their quickness, they will deny the ball in the post and pressure the ball handler so ferociously that the whole offensive set breaks down. Speed>Size for them.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Jordan argument is meritless. Arguably Pippen's two best defensive seasons came when Jordan was retired. In 1995 Pippen had to be his team's leading scorer, primary playmaker, defensive anchor, top rebounder, top shotblocker, league leader in steals, coach on the floor all the while playing nearly 40 minutes a game. He should have been DPOY that year. So the notion that he "conserved" energy via Jordan and hence played better defense was disproven when he had to expend unusually high amounts of energy (especially in 1995), given his role, without Mike.

[Joey3000]

Pippen was quicker to the ball and had a higher defensive IQ. While Bron may have been taller Pip was longer and had a better reach.

To be fair, Pip also played in an era that allowed him to hover and stay in the paint, Bron doesn't have this luxury.

But it was also harder on Pip since he had to fight through more screens since ball movement was far more common. Isolation has always been part of the game no doubt, but there is more now than it was back then. Combine that with the physical play (YES even defenders got roughed up) Pip had it harder.

Pip also had to guard true big men in the post, when post players actually existed. He didn't get bailed out by big men trying to be guards shooting bad shots as much as Pip did. Somebody like Larry Johnson in his prime would do Bron just as nasty as he did Pip (perhaps worse).

It's easy to forget how great of a defender Pip was, but Bron still lacks some key elements that made Pip the better defender.


What is that based on? I'm sorry, but that sounds like such an easy thing to say, but never has any real foundation.

[ThaRegul8r]

Going on record eh? And who are you suppose to be?

This is actually an interesting point in that for some reason people feel compelled to give their unsolicited opinions as if people are supposed to care. Someone will post a topic like:

"LeBron is the GOAT."

"LeBron > MJ."

"Kobe > MJ."

You've seen them and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Okay. If you think so, fine. Why are we supposed to care? Then you get people who'll argue with them, and of course if someone's mind is made up nothing will change it, so it becomes nothing more than pointless arguing which accomplishes nothing because neither side will change. People can think whatever they want, but why do they have to announce it to everyone, or proclaim it as "fact" or "official," as I've seen some do. As if their opinion is the official barometer? I've probably watched more basketball than the majority people on this forum have even been alive, yet I've never felt the need to post some thread on some opinion of mine as if it's supposed to mean anything. I never post opinions, as they're meaningless. Usually they're biased, and most of the time uninformed. You have people posting threads giving their GOAT lists who've only been watching basketball for 5-10 years. People who never even saw Jordan play when he was on the Bulls, let alone Magic or Bird. It's nothing more than an attempt to gain some kind of attention, or they're seeking validation ("there are other people who agree with me!").

But, whatever.

[Whoah10115]

Who anchors Miami's Defense?

Miami has a great defensive team with week bigs.


Do you know what an anchor is? It's not being the best defender on the team. It says right there in my post and no, LeBron does not do that.


Besides the fact that he hasn't even a great defender for the overall season.


And, while Bosh is not a great defender, he is a good one. Anthony's problem is he can't rebound. He's a great defender. And Spoelstra is a great x's and o's guy. His defense is terrific.

[hitmanyr2k]

What is that based on? I'm sorry, but that sounds like such an easy thing to say, but never has any real foundation.

It's being able to read plays, knowing where the offense wants to go and cut it off. Communicate with your teammates and direct them where to be while you cover their ass. It's basically everything the Lakers are not doing this season on the defensive side of the ball. No one on that team is being the leader on that side of the floor. I remember in the 2000 playoffs Kevin Garnett marveling how Pippen knew what plays the Wolves were going to run and was calling them out to the defense. The funny thing is Kevin Garnett picked it up and started doing the same thing, constantly out there barking and communicating making sure everyone is on the same page. That's why those guys can anchor their teams defensively. They have the physical aspect as well as the IQ to be the glue.

[Joey3000]

This is actually an interesting point in that for some reason people feel compelled to give their unsolicited opinions as if people are supposed to care. Someone will post a topic like:

"LeBron is the GOAT."

"LeBron > MJ."

"Kobe > MJ."

You've seen them and you know exactly what I'm talking about. Okay. If you think so, fine. Why are we supposed to care? Then you get people who'll argue with them, and of course if someone's mind is made up nothing will change it, so it becomes nothing more than pointless arguing which accomplishes nothing because neither side will change. People can think whatever they want, but why do they have to announce it to everyone, or proclaim it as "fact" or "official," as I've seen some do. As if their opinion is the official barometer? I've probably watched more basketball than the majority people on this forum have even been alive, yet I've never felt the need to post some thread on some opinion of mine as if it's supposed to mean anything. I never post opinions, as they're meaningless. Usually they're biased, and most of the time uninformed. You have people posting threads giving their GOAT lists who've only been watching basketball for 5-10 years. People who never even saw Jordan play when he was on the Bulls, let alone Magic or Bird. It's nothing more than an attempt to gain some kind of attention, or they're seeking validation ("there are other people who agree with me!").

But, whatever.

U mad?

[Joey3000]

Do you know what an anchor is? It's not being the best defender on the team. It says right there in my post and no, LeBron does not do that.


Besides the fact that he hasn't even a great defender for the overall season.


And, while Bosh is not a great defender, he is a good one. Anthony's problem is he can't rebound. He's a great defender. And Spoelstra is a great x's and o's guy. His defense is terrific.

An anchor is the lead defensive player whom the defense revolves around. and nobody on that tean fits that description better then LBJ

[LikeABosh]

Pippen is the more accomplished defender because that was his role. He was able go 100% defensiveness while not having to worry about carrying his team like Lebron does.

[Whoah10115]

An anchor is the lead defensive player whom the defense revolves around. and nobody on that tean fits that description better then LBJ



Not every team has an anchor. And an anchor does a little more than that, as well. You know, like an actual anchor.


And the defense on Miami does not revolve around LeBron. That's not what he does on defense.



Pippen is the more accomplished defender because that was his role. He was able go 100% defensiveness while not having to worry about carrying his team like Lebron does.



You don't like paying attention that part about his two best defensive seasons being the two years Jordan was out and where he did carry the offense...do you?

[CavaliersFTW]

I watched Pippen play and he was a first class defender.

Ive also watched Lebron play and he to is a first class defender.

For people to say Pippen was light years ahead of James on the defensive end is not only a overstatment, it has no basis. Lebron (and wade by the way) terrorize players who or on a fast break. His come from behind blocks are only rivaled by Wade.
Um.... no.

[CavaliersFTW]

Pippen was quicker to the ball and had a higher defensive IQ. While Bron may have been taller Pip was longer and had a better reach.

To be fair, Pip also played in an era that allowed him to hover and stay in the paint, Bron doesn't have this luxury.

But it was also harder on Pip since he had to fight through more screens since ball movement was far more common. Isolation has always been part of the game no doubt, but there is more now than it was back then. Combine that with the physical play (YES even defenders got roughed up) Pip had it harder.

Pip also had to guard true big men in the post, when post players actually existed. He didn't get bailed out by big men trying to be guards shooting bad shots as much as Pip did. Somebody like Larry Johnson in his prime would do Bron just as nasty as he did Pip (perhaps worse).

It's easy to forget how great of a defender Pip was, but Bron still lacks some key elements that made Pip the better defender.
Lebron James is not taller than Scottie Pippen. Pippen is both longer, and taller than Lebron.

Scottie Pippen:
6-7.5 w/o shoes
7-2 wingspan

Lebron James
6-7.25 w/o shoes
7-0.25 wingspan

[LikeABosh]

Not every team has an anchor. And an anchor does a little more than that, as well. You know, like an actual anchor.


And the defense on Miami does not revolve around LeBron. That's not what he does on defense.






You don't like paying attention that part about his two best defensive seasons being the two years Jordan was out and where he did carry the offense...do you?
He was mainly known for being the designated defensive stopper on Jordan's Bulls. That's just not Lebron's job, they're different players.

[DatAsh]

An anchor is the lead defensive player whom the defense revolves around. and nobody on that tean fits that description better then LBJ

I don't think the Heat's defense really revolves around Lebron though. They were a top 6 defense in 2010 - the year before he got there. They were actually a better defensive team without him in 2010 than they are this year with him.

I think the Heat's defense revolves around good rotations and coaching more-so than any one player.

[ThaRegul8r]

U mad?

Not at all, actually.

I commend you on such a cogent, well-articulated and well-thought out response.

I'm also somewhat surprised that you actually said something to me directly rather than leaving it at an anonymous neg.

[Whoah10115]

He was mainly known for being the designated defensive stopper on Jordan's Bulls. That's just not Lebron's job, they're different players.



No that is not what he was known as. Where does this revisionism come from? I was alive for that and I watched. Along with Ewing being a warrior and David Robinson "If he wasn't 7'1 he'd be a SF running up and down the wing", the other thing you heard the most in the 90's was that Pippen was "Arguably/Probably the best all-around player in the NBA".


Whether or not it's accurate is irrelevant. What is relevant is how completely inaccurate your comment is. Pippen was the most all-around player in the game. He was the team's PG. He ran the offense. And for two years, he did it without Michael and was the team's leading scorer, while having his best defensive seasons. So, in every possible way, that's inaccurate.

[(e)]

Pretty funny reading most of these comments.

You can generally tell who has actually seen Scottie Pippen play, and who hasn't just by their comments.

[andgar923]

What is that based on? I'm sorry, but that sounds like such an easy thing to say, but never has any real foundation.

Not hard to grasp if you understand or have played ball.

Knowing how to guard certain players, when to gamble, how to read the offensive sets (think Ray Lewis in the NFL) and adjust, when to rotate etc.etc.

I see many lapses in Bron's game from time to time. Such as, playing a non shooter close, letting players go to their strong hand etc.etc.

Of course not every player is perfect, but Pip was just better at being a better defender.

[andgar923]

Lebron James is not taller than Scottie Pippen. Pippen is both longer, and taller than Lebron.

Scottie Pippen:
6-7.5 w/o shoes
7-2 wingspan

Lebron James
6-7.25 w/o shoes
7-0.25 wingspan

I wasn't sure, just gave him the benefit of the doubt.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I don't agree with OP but here are some interesting stats someone posted on another forum

James + Wade (No Bosh)

ORTG: 125.3 (+19.8)
DRTG: 101.3 (-4.2)
Net: +24.1 in 271.6 minutes

James + Bosh (No Wade)

ORTG: 120.6 (+15.1)
DRTG: 104.1 (-1.4)
Net: +16.6 in 236.1 minutes

Wade + Bosh (No James)

ORTG: 101.0 (-5.5)
DRTG: 114.6 (+9.1)
Net: -13.7 in 112.0 minutes

Bosh + James + Wade

ORTG: 115.5 (+10.0)
DRTG: 104.0 (-1.5)
Net: +11.5 in 1064.6 minutes

[tomtucker]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100305160105/americandad/images/6/69/Pibb_Factory.jpg

[kshutts1]

I feel like Pippen has been adequately defended (intended) in this thread, but I have to chime in.

If I were to draft a lockdown defensive player, my picks would probably look something like:

Pippen
Lebron
Payton (would be second, but he's so small; oompa-loompa disease)
Some old-time player whose name I can't remember right now because I'm tipsy... played for the Lakers as a 6th man, I believe.
Artest

Lebron is a phenomenal defender, but he's not Pippen. Kobe was/is a phenomenal player, but he's not Jordan.

The difference seems to clearly be a generational thing.

[Vertical-24]

Better defender than Scottie Pippen? :wtf:

Do you guys know who Scottie Pippen is? :wtf:

LeBron is a great defensive player in his own right, so don't take this as a knock on him. Pippen was perhaps the greatest perimeter defender this league has ever seen. LeBron is a very versatile defender and can do a lot on that side of the ball but in regards to overall defense, he, sir is no Pippen.

[plowking]

Lebron James is not taller than Scottie Pippen. Pippen is both longer, and taller than Lebron.

Scottie Pippen:
6-7.5 w/o shoes
7-2 wingspan

Lebron James
6-7.25 w/o shoes
7-0.25 wingspan

I'd say Bron is taller due to that being taken when Bron was 18. I remember in your height thread where you used scaling, even you yourself mentioned that Lebron looked to have grown at least half an inch.

Moving on to another topic, reading andgar's posts is hilarious. If you gather all his posts over all the "old school vs current player" threads, you'd see what he writes has been contradicted by himself on a regular basis. Somehow its harder to play defense and offense back in the 80s and 90s. He complains players use to many screens these days in another thread, then talks about how Scottie has to go through more screens than Lebron... :facepalm

You're up there with the worst posters on the board andgar. You're recollection of basketball events is flawed on nearly every occasion as well, yet you continue to share your thoughts on here with extreme bias and no regard for what actually occurred.

[Joey3000]

Better defender than Scottie Pippen? :wtf:

Do you guys know who Scottie Pippen is? :wtf:

LeBron is a great defensive player in his own right, so don't take this as a knock on him. Pippen was perhaps the greatest perimeter defender this league has ever seen. LeBron is a very versatile defender and can do a lot on that side of the ball but in regards to overall defense, he, sir is no Pippen.

Whats that based on? You cant just come here and make these claims with out any support. Everybody knows Pippen was a great defender, but to say LBJ isnot in the same league as a defender with no evidence is crazy.

Ive seen both play in their primes "Lebron just now getting into his prime" and I think LBJ is just as good a defender. He actually does atleast 1 thing better.

What does he do better? He is the best Ive seen at chasing down a fast break and blocking from behind. With wade also one of the best at that, nodoubt they inspire each other in that category. But they absolutley terrorize fast breakers. Not saying Pippen didnt do it also, but I think LBJ does it better.

[Budadiiii]

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff504/Iamacatdog/Macros-Reaction/Yall-postin-in-a-troll-thread.jpg

[andgar923]

I'd say Bron is taller due to that being taken when Bron was 18. I remember in your height thread where you used scaling, even you yourself mentioned that Lebron looked to have grown at least half an inch.

Moving on to another topic, reading andgar's posts is hilarious. If you gather all his posts over all the "old school vs current player" threads, you'd see what he writes has been contradicted by himself on a regular basis. Somehow its harder to play defense and offense back in the 80s and 90s. He complains players use to many screens these days in another thread, then talks about how Scottie has to go through more screens than Lebron... :facepalm

You're up there with the worst posters on the board andgar. You're recollection of basketball events is flawed on nearly every occasion as well, yet you continue to share your thoughts on here with extreme bias and no regard for what actually occurred.

No, you're just stupid.

But why you always on my dick?

[Joey3000]

No, you're just stupid.

But why you always on my dick?

LOL I dont know man, he backed up his statments with facts. The above is not an arguement. :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Nah. Lebron is capable of doing anything Pippen ever did on defense from a physical standpoint but hes not the defensive leader that either Pippen or KG were. Defense is more being in position to deny shots to the other team than what you can do man to man. Lebron might be as capable or more man to man....hes not getting some of the guys Pippen worked with to work so well in the context of team defense.

Sure Lebrons cavs played great D with players not known for defense but it wasnt him doing it. It was mostly Mike Brown having years to drill it into them Pop style and holding everyone accountable. You can watch a Bulls game from the 90s and hear Pippen directing the team. Letting guys know where help was....what to do. Out stopping the ball on the fast break while sending teammates to cover for him. Making on the fly adjustments to the gameplan. Grabbing guys like Damon mid play to move them out of mismatches when they were like a deer in headlights....and that was on the Blazers.

I remember reading Phil Jackson talking about Pippen having a great battlefield voice for lack of a better term. Deep voice...big. Can be heard over a lot of action. Pippen had guys playing over their heads on defense while also guarding everyone from Tim Hardaway to Barkley and Zo now and then.

Lebron can guard everyone Pippen did. Lebron isnt the defensive leader Pippen was though.

[CavaliersFTW]

I feel like Pippen has been adequately defended (intended) in this thread, but I have to chime in.

If I were to draft a lockdown defensive player, my picks would probably look something like:

Pippen
Lebron
Payton (would be second, but he's so small; oompa-loompa disease)
Some old-time player whose name I can't remember right now because I'm tipsy... played for the Lakers as a 6th man, I believe.
Artest

Lebron is a phenomenal defender, but he's not Pippen. Kobe was/is a phenomenal player, but he's not Jordan.

The difference seems to clearly be a generational thing.
I like this list, and I'll add a prior generation's lockdown defenders just to keep their names in the hat:
K.C. Jones - best defensive point guard of the 60's
Jerry West - a la MJ, just as focused on defense as offense
Walt Frazier - another elite defensive guard of the 60's/70's

And my favorite, and particularly pertinent to this Scottie/Lebron discussion:
Gus Johnson - who should be mentioned here because before the 90's his reputation among NBA HOFers and former players of the time was that he was still "the best defensive forward of all-time". Even the Bull's GM in the late 80's said this, because Scottie Pippen's reputation wasn't gained until the 90's... Gus is virtually never brought up in these discussions, but he is one of the only true 1-5 defensive players in NBA history - in that he could effectively stop point guards through centers. I don't mean like how Lebron can "kinda" guard PF's/Centers either, I mean Gus guarded Oscar Robertson better than any other player, he guarded PF/C Jerry Lucas better than any other player, he guarded Artis Gilmore in the ABA Finals his final season despite injury, He was assigned to guard Kareem Abdul-Jabbar through some of the 1971 NBA Finals despite injury, he guarded Elgin Baylor on the Lakers, etc, literally any position and always an elite offensive threat - when he was healthy he took on whoever his coach needed him to guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYxh-Ljr5Sg

[kshutts1]

I like this list, and I'll add a prior generation's lockdown defenders just to keep their names in the hat:
K.C. Jones - best defensive point guard of the 60's
Jerry West - a la MJ, just as focused on defense as offense
Walt Frazier - another elite defensive guard of the 60's/70's

And my favorite, and particularly pertinent to this Scottie/Lebron discussion:
Gus Johnson - who should be mentioned here because before the 90's his reputation among NBA HOFers and former players of the time was that he was still "the best defensive forward of all-time". Even the Bull's GM in the late 80's said this, because Scottie Pippen's reputation wasn't gained until the 90's... Gus is virtually never brought up in these discussions, but he is one of the only true 1-5 defensive players in NBA history - in that he could effectively stop point guards through centers. I don't mean like how Lebron can "kinda" guard PF's/Centers either, I mean Gus guarded Oscar Robertson better than any other player, he guarded PF/C Jerry Lucas better than any other player, he guarded Artis Gilmore in the ABA Finals his final season despite injury, He was assigned to guard Kareem Abdul-Jabbar through some of the 1971 NBA Finals despite injury, he guarded Elgin Baylor on the Lakers, etc, literally any position and always an elite offensive threat - when he was healthy he took on whoever his coach needed him to guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYxh-Ljr5Sg

I didn't know West was known as a great defender, too. Thanks for that. Always nice to learn more about the players I've never seen.

[CavaliersFTW]

I didn't know West was known as a great defender, too. Thanks for that. Always nice to learn more about the players I've never seen.
http://youtu.be/OEzwR1a8KuA?t=9m26s
Some Jerry West defensive highlights :cheers:

[TheMan]

I feel like Pippen has been adequately defended (intended) in this thread, but I have to chime in.

If I were to draft a lockdown defensive player, my picks would probably look something like:

Pippen
Lebron
Payton (would be second, but he's so small; oompa-loompa disease)
Some old-time player whose name I can't remember right now because I'm tipsy... played for the Lakers as a 6th man, I believe.
Artest

Lebron is a phenomenal defender, but he's not Pippen. Kobe was/is a phenomenal player, but he's not Jordan.

The difference seems to clearly be a generational thing.
I believe you mean Michael Cooper.

[plowking]

I didn't know West was known as a great defender, too. Thanks for that. Always nice to learn more about the players I've never seen.

Dude had some ridiculously long arms.

I remember reading an article a while back that had a comparison of Oscar Robertson and West, and had player opinions and polls about the two. Many chose West due to playing both sides of the ball at an elite level. So he was very highly regarded on the defensive end for most of his career.

Anyone know of the article I'm speaking of? Would love to give it a read through again.

[kshutts1]

I believe you mean Michael Cooper.

Yes, thank you.

[Euroleague]

LeBron is a very good defender and very versatile, but this is just going too far. Pippen was a one of a kind defender. Pippen was better on defense than LeBron is.

[Whoah10115]

And my favorite, and particularly pertinent to this Scottie/Lebron discussion:
Gus Johnson -



This is annoying, because he was the guy I was going to pick for the Simulation League...and then I forgot.

[Pointguard]

I have Pippen as the better overall defender.

I wouldn't hold the Lebron/Durant thing so much against Lebron. He lead his team in every major category and that was what was necessary to win that series. Lebron had to be about his game and his strengths, and not get caught up with stopping Durant's strength. Even with that said, Durant's is the toughest guy to stop on the perimeter ever. His release on average is close to 9 feet high and as accurate as any perimeter player's shot. Its like a perimeter sky hook.

[Whoah10115]

I have Pippen as the better overall defender.

I wouldn't hold the Lebron/Durant thing so much against Lebron. He lead his team in every major category and that was what was necessary to win that series. Lebron had to be about his game and his strengths, and not get caught up with stopping Durant's strength. Even with that said, Durant's is the toughest guy to stop on the perimeter ever. His release on average is close to 9 feet high and as accurate as any perimeter player's shot. Its like a perimeter sky hook.


It helps that Durant put up some empty stats.

[Lebron23]

I watched Pippen play and he was a first class defender.

Ive also watched Lebron play and he to is a first class defender.

For people to say Pippen was light years ahead of James on the defensive end is not only a overstatment, it has no basis. Lebron (and wade by the way) terrorize players who or on a fast break. His come from behind blocks are only rivaled by Wade.

In LeBron's prime he was as good as a defender as Scottie Pippen

[Round Mound]

Nope. Lebron was a "good" defender while Pippen was a "GREAT" defender. Pippen had bigman-like effect on D.

[kawhileonard2]

If this was the case then he wouldn't have given up finals mvp's like candy. Dirk, Kawhi, Iggy, KD to name a few.

[bizil]

Peak Bron was a great defender. BUT I would give Pip the edge. BUT thing is, Bron ALSO had to worry about being the best scorer AND the top facilitator on his teams. With Pip, he NEVER had alpha dog scoring cred to begin with. The Bulls STRUCK GOLD by having two legends who were REDEFINING their positions at the same damn time. Pip NEVER had MJ's scoring ability. BUT in terms of floor game, positional versatility, and freak athletic ability as a package, Pip SET THE BAR at the SF position until G Hill and Bron came down the pike. Pip for all intents and purposes combined the floor game and positional versatility of Hondo with the freak athletic ability of Dr. J at the SF spot. That type of SF had NEVER been seen before at the time!

[light]

I watched Pippen play and he was a first class defender.

Ive also watched Lebron play and he to is a first class defender.

For people to say Pippen was light years ahead of James on the defensive end is not only a overstatment, it has no basis. Lebron (and wade by the way) terrorize players who or on a fast break. His come from behind blocks are only rivaled by Wade.

"For people to say Pippen was light years ahead of James on the defensive end is not only a overstatment, it has no basis."

Nobody says that.

At least nobody in basketball says that.

Here we have the great head coach Steve Kerr telling us in no uncertain terms that he thinks prime LeBron is a stronger and more versatile defender than prime Scottie Pippen, from 2013:

"LeBron this year is so good defensively. I watched a game I remember in Salt Lake in January - Al Jefferson, one of the best low post players in the game, was just destroying Miami and Spoelstra put LeBron on Jefferson and he shut him down the whole fourth quarter. I don't think he scored a point. The versatility of LeBron defensively is just incredible. I don't think we've ever seen someone with that defensive range. Scottie Pippen probably comes closest, but LeBron is stronger than Scottie when guarding post up players like Jefferson."

Here we have the great Coach K telling us that he thinks no other perimeter player in history could defend power forwards and centers like prime LeBron:

"He's the only player in the history of this game that can play all 5 positions offensively and defensively and play them well."

LeBron is bigger and stronger than Pippen which is why LeBron plays the 4 and 5 much more often than Pippen did.

That's a major advantage for LeBron because we know that prime Bron was also the best perimeter defender in the league and could lock up your point guard too. Pippen wasn't strong enough to compete in this regard - being equally strong 1 through 5.

And LeBron did that while also leading his team, and the series, in scoring, rebounding and assists.

Prime LeBron was basically MJ, Pippen and Grant in one player.

[light]

Nope. Lebron was a "good" defender while Pippen was a "GREAT" defender. Pippen had bigman-like effect on D.

Steve Kerr's take on LeBron's bigman-like effect on D versus Pippen's bigman-like effect on D, 2013: "The versatility of LeBron defensively is just incredible; I don't think we've ever seen someone with that defensive range. Scottie Pippen probably comes closest, but LeBron is stronger than Scottie when guarding post up players like Jefferson."

Jeff Van Gundy, 2013: "James is one of the top 10 perimeter defenders of all time."

Frank Vogel, 2013: "Everybody knows LeBron's the best player in the league. He's the best defensive player in the league as well."

David Thorpe, 2012: "LeBron was once a bad defender but is now the league's best wing defender."

Berry Tramel, The Oklahoman, 2012: "LeBron is a better defender than Michael Jordan."

Shane Battier, 2013: "He understands rotations. He understands strengths and weakness. Then, when you add that with supernatural athletic ability, you have a dominant defender."

https://i.ibb.co/j3x29WB/Screen-Shot-2022-08-14-at-5-10-18-AM.png

[Baller789]

Funny how defense works.

People look down on good offensive players when they are inconsistent and play below potential.

Yet is the inverse opposite is true on defense. Players get their props on the handful of times they decide show up on D for the entire season. And the constant coasting on D gets brushed under the rug.

[bison]

Dr. Pippen had the luxury of playing with Jordon who carried the offensive load allowing Dr. Pippen to focus exclusively on defending. LeCuck doesn't have that luxury and even if he did who knows how good a defender he could be since he doesn't mentally commit to defense either way.

[8Ball]

In LeBron's prime he was as good as a defender as Scottie Pippen

Better.

Larger than Scottie and just as fast.

[8Ball]

Steve Kerr's take on LeBron's bigman-like effect on D versus Pippen's bigman-like effect on D, 2013: "The versatility of LeBron defensively is just incredible; I don't think we've ever seen someone with that defensive range. Scottie Pippen probably comes closest, but LeBron is stronger than Scottie when guarding post up players like Jefferson."

Jeff Van Gundy, 2013: "James is one of the top 10 perimeter defenders of all time."

Frank Vogel, 2013: "Everybody knows LeBron's the best player in the league. He's the best defensive player in the league as well."

David Thorpe, 2012: "LeBron was once a bad defender but is now the league's best wing defender."

Berry Tramel, The Oklahoman, 2012: "LeBron is a better defender than Michael Jordan."

Shane Battier, 2013: "He understands rotations. He understands strengths and weakness. Then, when you add that with supernatural athletic ability, you have a dominant defender."

https://i.ibb.co/j3x29WB/Screen-Shot-2022-08-14-at-5-10-18-AM.png

When Light posts, thread is ended.

[3ba11]

Agreed, but not as good as MJ

MJ was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' and scoring champ - that's the goat caliber and goat longevity of that caliber

MJ was #2 for DPOY in 93' and won in 88'