Where is Hakeem on your all-time best list?

[bmd]

Where is he on your list of best centers ever, and where is he on your list of best players ever at any position?

[gengiskhan]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Russell
8. Shaq

[9erempiree]

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Kobe
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Russell

[Whoah10115]

#4 center, pushing Kareem more than people realize...top 10 player. Where, exactly, I don't know.

[TheCorporation]

Top 10, for sure. I'm just not sure exactly where.

As for Centers...

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem

So, #4.

[2LeTTeRS]

Among bigs I only have Shaq, Kareem, Wilt and Russel in front of him.

[gengiskhan]

Top 10, for sure. I'm just not sure exactly where.

As for Centers...

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem

So, #4.

Nope!

Its Kareem > Wilt > Hakeem > Shaq

Hakeem 1 MVP = Shaq 1 MVP
Hakeem 1 DPOY > Shaq 0 DPOY
Hakeem 2 FMVPs > Shaq's 3 FMVPs ( Hakeem beat Ewing in 7 game series, Hakeem Swept Shaq, BOTH CENTERS)

[Scholar]

In the top 4 among Centers and definitely top 10 among all-time great players.

[Sakkreth]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem

[Rubio2Gasol]

Best player I have ever seen play the game really. You cannot handcraft a more perfect center- he could do anything you want at an elite level.

[kNicKz]

Hakeem beat Ewing in 7 game series, Hakeem Swept Shaq,

Breaking: multiple sources confirm basketball is no longer a team sport

[Bigsmoke]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Shaq
5. Bird
7. Kobe
8. Magic
9. Hakeem
10.Duncan

something like that

[BlackVVaves]

He's in the 8-10 range for me on my All Time list. #4 center all time in terms of individual skill. Immense talent, his greatness is too easily undervalued, but that seems to have changed a bit over the years.

[bdreason]

1. Kareem
2. Jordan
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

[Rubio2Gasol]

He's in the 8-10 range for me on my All Time list. #4 center all time in terms of individual skill. Immense talent, his greatness is too easily undervalued, but that seems to have changed a bit over the years.

Shaq , Kareem and Wilt ?

I disagree with Shaq but I'm not going to fight it down - didn't see the other two at least not in their primes.

[Harison]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3-4. Kareem, Wilt
5-6. Magic, Bird
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Kobe

[Shepseskaf]

Its Kareem > Wilt > Hakeem > Shaq
Absolutely!!

No way that Snaq belongs ahead of Hakeem. No possible way.

Their on-the-court accomplishment are very close, but Hakeem was simply a superior player.

Notice that every big man who needs to learn better post moves works with Hakeem. Is anyone asking for tips from Snaq?

[Money 23]

I absolutely don't like ranking players I didn't get to see in context or in their prime. I caught the tail end of Magic, barely any of Bird, and had to watch their games on tape ...

Not as it happened (which lends itself a different more dramatic experience by players, especially when it comes to clutch areas or context rich scenarios)

If I'm ranking players since I just started watching NBA ball, which was around '89 / '90 - ish, as a 4 or 5 year old ... I'd have Hakeem ranked top five, quite easily of best players I've seen of all-time

MJ
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
LeBron

If I'm taking historical players, their legacy and influence on the game into account he ranks in the #8 - #10, top ten of all-time range.

[dyna]

1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Russell
5) Bird
6) Magic
7) Shaq
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) Kobe

[TheMarkMadsen]

Breaking: multiple sources confirm basketball is no longer a team sport


Breaking news anybody without a nut for a brain realizes that Shaq had all the talent in the world on his Orlando teams and got crushed when he faced the superior Hakeem who's supporting cast was.. Less than memorable

[shaq2000]

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant

[JMT]

Not sure about All Time, but definitely ahead of Shaq. He was simply a far more skilled basketball player who played the same position.

Probably comfortable with somewhere in that 8-10 range.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Breaking news anybody without a nut for a brain realizes that Shaq had all the talent in the world on his Orlando teams and got crushed when he faced the superior Hakeem who's supporting cast was.. Less than memorable

Talent wise Shaq's team edged it and as far and it was also a better fit. Nonetheless he wasn't the player he was going to be a couple years down the line.

But even then he never carried a team like Hakeem did and he had so many flaws. You don't come across a player as fundamentally GREAT in every department like Hakeem was. Shaq had clear weaknesses you could pick at and achieve success - Hakeem didn't.

There's just something about players with that adaptive capacity man. They can just adjust to whatever defenses throw at them. Hakeem was that type of player.

[pauk]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

[KBryant24]

top 12 in my books
jordan, magic, wilt are at the top
then its hakeem with guys like
shaq, kobe, duncan, west, russell, oscar, kaj, & bird

[CP3MVP]

we really need polls enabled on this forum...

#1:
#2:
#3:
#4:
#5:
#6: gengiskhan
#7: 9erempiree, Harison
#8: dyna, shaq2000
#9: Sakkreth, Bigsmoke, bdreason, CP3MVP
#10: pauk

[pauk]

top 12 in my books
jordan, magic, wilt are at the top
then its hakeem with guys like
shaq, kobe, duncan, west, russell, oscar, kaj, & bird

West/Oscar but no Lebron? No Moses? Careful now fella......

....................Lebron..........Moses......... ..Oscar.............West.......
MVP.................3..................3.......... ........1.................0..........
FMVP................1..................1.......... ........0.................1..........
CHAMP..............1..................1........... .......1.................1..........
ROTY...............Yes...............No........... .....Yes..............No.........
1st All-Nba........6..................4..................9 .................10.........
1st All-Def.........4..................1.................. 0.................4..........
All-Star.............9.................12............. ....12...............14.........
Best player....Many years....Maybe once.....Never........Maybe once..
PPG................27.6.............20.6.......... .....25.7............27.0........
RPG.................7.2..............12.2......... .......7.5..............5.8.......
APG.................6.9................1.4........ .......9.5..............6.7........
PER................27.5..............22.3......... .....23.2............22.9........

Keep also in mind that Oscar won his only championship when he was an old sidekick to Kareem and that Jerry West won his only championship where Goodrich/Wilt outproduced him, where Wilt won the MVP...

Oscar/Jerry dropped some nice stats, where great talents... but they dont belong over Lebron/Moses really...

[Deuce Bigalow]

West/Oscar but no Lebron? No Moses? Careful now fella......

....................Lebron..........Moses......... ..Oscar.............West.......
MVP.................3..................3.......... ........1.................0..........
FMVP................1..................1.......... ........0.................1..........
CHAMP..............1..................1........... .......1.................1..........
ROTY...............Yes...............No........... .....Yes..............No.........
1st All-Nba........6..................4..................9 .................10.........
1st All-Def.........4..................1.................. 0.................4..........
All-Star.............9.................12............. ....12...............14.........
Best player....Many years....Maybe once.....Never........Maybe once..
PPG................27.6.............20.6.......... .....25.7............27.0........
RPG.................7.2..............12.2......... .......7.5..............5.8.......
APG.................6.9................1.4........ .......9.5..............6.7........
PER................27.5..............22.3......... .....23.2............22.9........
Where are the POTM and POTW awards?

[pauk]

Where are the POTM and POTW awards?

Unfortunately that, DPOY and spg/bpg didnt exist during all of these guys eras, so i didnt include that..... FMVP didnt exist aswell during most of Oscars era, but its not like he was gona recieve it anyways.... cant remove that... are you ok with it? :rolleyes:

POTW? lol... thats only a weekly "honor", POTM however is for a month and you get a hardware/trophy, those that recieve the most POTM in a season also win the MVP... so i would say its more prestigious/meaningful than a All-Star MVP (which i didnt include either)

PS: Dont worry, i know why you asked that...

[Round Mound]

In Terms of Impact Players He Is Around Top 6-7. Hakeem was the 2nd Best Player in The League for Decade from 1985 to 1995 after MJ.

[Gotterdammerung]

The best center I've ever seen to play the game. No weaknesses - could adapt to any defense, play any offense, flourish at either man to man or off the ball defense, and destroy elite centers.

Top 5 of alltime (of players I've seen since 1990).

Historically probably bottom half of top 10, but that matters little.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Unfortunately that, DPOY and spg/bpg didnt exist during all of these guys eras, so i didnt include that..... FMVP didnt exist aswell during most of Oscars era, but its not like he was gona recieve it anyways.... cant remove that... are you ok with it? :rolleyes:

POTW? lol... thats only a weekly "honor", POTM however is for a month and you get a hardware/trophy, those that recieve the most POTM in a season also win the MVP... so i would say its more prestigious/meaningful than a All-Star MVP (which i didnt include either)

PS: Dont worry, i know why you asked that...
You finally realized this :applause: Impressive.

[pauk]

You finally realized this :applause: Impressive.

I always realised this... the thread long time ago when i did include everything (FMVP/DPOY/SPG/BPG and yes POTM) i didnt care about the difference of eras... i just simply wanted to include all & any NBA HARDWARE/STATS the players actually had at their disposal, which i thought was the right thing to do..... but later on i had to remove most of that due to complaints from the likes of you, who were mostly complaining about POTM.... which is perfectly fine by me...

Now to avoid those annoying complaints i dont include any of it (DPOY, SPG, BPG and yes POTM)..... FMVP would be then also technically the same thing to remove if you would compare someone of the modern era to Russell and so on.... but i dont care, you can complain about FMVP... aint gona remove that from the comparisons... :P

[no pun intended]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Hakeem Olajuwon

[pauk]

These era differences sucks... :/ Im sure most of you maybe know Bill Russell would be the undisputed GOAT if FMVP/DPOY did exist? He would have hypothetically up to 10 FMVP/DPOY.... i mean, its a guarantee he would had them if they did exist, he was the best player in his 11 championships and was the best defensive player in most of his years...

11 rings
11 fmvps
10 dpoys
5 mvps

Jordan who?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Borderline top 5 player to me. Only post-Jordan player I've seen who may have been as good/better was Shaq, and Lebron is on the verge of entering that category to me. But Hakeem was ridiculously good from '93-'95. He pretty much had as much impact on a game during that time as you could.

[Legends66NBA7]

Don't really have an exact number, but... from what I've seen, Hakeem's ranking is varied. I've seen people list him as high as Top 2-5 and as low as Top 13-15 range. I think I've seen it written how he got a boost in ranking after he retired into the Top 10, before that he was in the Top 15 range.

So Top 10-15 range, sounds about right to me. I could see Top 5, but I think he's lacking overall accomplishments. As a player, it's far more different though and could be more understanding.


Absolutely!!

No way that Snaq belongs ahead of Hakeem. No possible way.

Their on-the-court accomplishment are very close, but Hakeem was simply a superior player.

Notice that every big man who needs to learn better post moves works with Hakeem. Is anyone asking for tips from Snaq?

:oldlol: @ no possible way, as if it's a fact. I've seen enough people in this thread rank Shaq over Hakeem.

[ThaRegul8r]

Haven't really thought about it. He was my favorite center of the '90s, but that shouldn't have anything to do with all-time rankings.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

#8 all time. #4 center

[millwad]

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Olajuwon
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Russell
8. Wilt

Hakeem between 93-96 is the best player I've ever seen behind MJ, the full package and while being an amazing defensive player he was just as amazing on the offensive end.

[Papaya Petee]

1.) Jordan 2.) Kareem 3.) Wilt 4.) Bird 5.) Shaq 6.) Magic 7.)Russell 8.) Kobe 9.)Duncan 10.)Hakeem.

[ILLsmak]

It's time for everyone to gather and say they think Hakeem was a better player than Shaq.

-Smak

[Legends66NBA7]

These era differences sucks... :/ Im sure most of you maybe know Bill Russell would be the undisputed GOAT if FMVP/DPOY did exist? He would have hypothetically up to 10 FMVP/DPOY.... i mean, its a guarantee he would had them if they did exist, he was the best player in his 11 championships and was the best defensive player in most of his years...

11 rings
11 fmvps
10 dpoys
5 mvps

Jordan who?

I know this has been said before to you (I think), but Russell would not have 11 Finals MVP's. It's not possible, because Jerry West got in in 69, Russell's Final season. 10 is the absolute max.

If you want an attempted take on DPOY's and Finals MVP's before they existed, here are the threads:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190992

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369

[noob cake]

1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Russell
5) Bird
6) Magic
7) Shaq
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) Kobe

Close thread.

LeBron is pushing #10 right now. Another ship LeBronzy pushes Kobe out.

[Xsatyr]

I would rank him top 5 all time and def better than Shaq. It's pretty subjective when comparing players that good though.

[gengiskhan]

In Terms of Impact Players He Is Around Top 6-7. Hakeem was the 2nd Best Player in The League for Decade from 1985 to 1995 after MJ.

This.

A reason why he is rated at #6. & also because he beat Shaq in 1995 NBA Finals. He basically OWNED him.

[fpliii]

These era differences sucks... :/ Im sure most of you maybe know Bill Russell would be the undisputed GOAT if FMVP/DPOY did exist? He would have hypothetically up to 10 FMVP/DPOY.... i mean, its a guarantee he would had them if they did exist, he was the best player in his 11 championships and was the best defensive player in most of his years...

11 rings
11 fmvps
10 dpoys
5 mvps

Jordan who?

Likely at least 7 Finals MVPs (absolute minimum of 5, in 60-63 and 66). I'll quote myself and ThaRegul8r from last month:


Thanks. Which seasons are we definitely giving to him? I'm guessing (apologies for anything inaccurate):

57 - Heinsohn, Cousy, Russ have a case
58 - nonissue, was injured
59 - Heinsohn, Sharman have a case (Russ might, GOAT rebounding series I believe?)
60 - Russell
61 - Russell
62 - Russell
63 - Russell
64 - Sam Jones, Russ have a case
65 - Russell (Sam Jones outside case, but wouldn't make much sense)
66 - Russell
67 - nonissue, wasn't in Finals
68 - Havlicek and Russ both have a case
69 - nonissue, goes to West

Aside from the bolded, I guess you went with 59 and 65 (I think you've said you have Havlicek in 68)? Of the five, 61-63 (back-to-back-to-back) would qualify as "MVP sweeps", and 65 could potentially as well (again, apologies if I'm off base).


Correct. Russell doesn't win in '57, I believe that would likely go to Heinsohn. People will go for Heinsohn's scoring numbers. '59, as you said, was the GOAT rebounding series. Lakers' coach John Kundla specifically said, "We tried as much as possible to keep him away from the boards, but there really isn't much you can do with the guy" (The Milwaukee Sentinel, Apr 7, 1959). "I think it was Russell who beat us. We just can't do anything about that man. ... He grabs that ball, wings it to Cousy and Boston has got three men breaking against our one back before we know what hit us" (The Evening Independent, Apr 8, 1959). Russell's rebounding was the catalyst for their offensive attack, and people were appreciating what he was doing despite not having gaudy scoring numbers. And he finished the sweep with a triple-double of 15 points, 30 rebounds and 12 blocks.

He then wins '60-'63 without question. He puts up back-to-back 20/20 series in '62 and '63, of course having one of the great Game 7s in Finals history in '62, with his entire frontcourt fouling out. I give '64 to Jones, because I acknowledge that voter fatigue might set in at this point and it might go to someone other than Russell. Though Jones did have a six points on 2-for-6 shooting and one-rebound stinker in there, and Russell had to contend with both Chamberlain and Nate Thurmond. Russell wins '65. He set a still-standing record for FG% for a 5-game series, shooting 70.2%, and had 22 points, 30 rebounds and four assists in the deciding Game 5 while Jones had a mere 10 points, which would kill any outside chance he might have at FMVP. Russell wins in '66, averaging another 20/20, leading the team in scoring at 23.6 points on 53.8% FG and 57.4% TS, 24.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists and shooting 74% from the free throw line.

'68 is between Russell and Havlicek. I gave it to Havlicek because, as I said regarding '64, it might go to Someone Other Than Russell, and I account for the fact that Russell is likely not going to get all 10 that would be available for that reason. For example, in '98, Pippen was regarded as the favorite for Finals MVP until Game 5 and his injury, and in '96, there were people who regarded Rodman as the true Finals MVP (if Kemp didn't pull a Jerry West). Since Russell was involved in so many more Finals than Jordan was, I figure he loses a couple of FMVPs, but he still wins more than anyone else ever does.

I haven't thought hard enough about retro DPOY, but G.O.A.T's picks in the thread Legends linked look pretty good so I think.

A retro DPOY project would be pretty fun, maybe I'll start a thread here during the offseason.

[ThaRegul8r]

I know this has been said before to you (I think), but Russell would not have 11 Finals MVP's. It's not possible, because Jerry West got in in 69, Russell's Final season. 10 is the absolute max.

If you want an attempted take on DPOY's and Finals MVP's before they existed, here are the threads:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190992

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369

Common sense says Russell couldn't have won 11 Finals MVPs, since it did exist in '69, and he didn't win it. So I don't know why some people insist he'd have 11.

I have notes on every Finals of the Russell era. The absolute worst case scenario, he wins seven, which is still more than anyone ever, and wouldn't be surpassed, as no other superstar besides Russell has ever won more than six NBA titles period (Jordan, Kareem). Only Horry and various teammates of Russell have more than six.

I disagree, however, with the link that says he wins all 10. Voter fatigue isn't accounted for. At some point they're going to give it to Someone Other Than Russell. In fact, I don't believe he wins the first one, as people didn't appreciate what he was doing yet; and seeing how he won MVP the next season yet wasn't voted First Team All-NBA (no black player was, his rookie or his second season), I don't believe they were ready to give it to a black player yet either. An objective, non-fanboy, non-Stan take, he wins >= 7 < 10. I tend to go with the conservative figure as I dislike when people automatically assume everything will go right for a particular player, and usually it's because they like the player and thus grant him every award it's possible for him to get.

[ThaRegul8r]

A retro DPOY project would be pretty fun, maybe I'll start a thread here during the offseason.

Unfortunately, those kind of things don't go over well here. If it isn't about Kobe or LeBron, people don't give a damn.

And I saw in your absolute minimum for Russell FMVPs, '65 wasn't listed. It isn't possible for Russell not to win in '65.

[Bernie Nips]

1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

[fpliii]

Unfortunately, those kind of things don't go over well here. If it isn't about Kobe or LeBron, people don't give a damn.

Maybe, though I guess we could have a designated voting panel of sensible posters which would eliminate that issue. With last summer's peaks project I had to cut short abruptly, I tried leaving voting open to everyone and that turned out disastrously.


And I saw in your absolute minimum for Russell FMVPs, '65 wasn't listed. It isn't possible for Russell not to win in '65.

I agree (as of today), but in the quoted post I was trying to figure out which seven you had in your absolute minimum. Since at the time I hadn't gone through my files for 65 yet I couldn't definitively make the call (now that I've had a chance to look through the writeups, I think it's probably one of his stronger Finals series). Sorry for any confusion/ignorance on my part.

[Odinn]

Changes from time to time. I'd say 8-11 range.

As for peaks, he's top 5 probably.
From 1992-93 to 1994-95;
27.0/12.0/3.6/3.8/1.8 on .525 fg .751 ft regular season
29.8/11.4/4.4/3.7/1.5 on .524 fg .754 ft playoffs
2x DPoY
1x MVP (Could have been 2. He had a great case for the 1993 MVP.)
2x FMVP

But I can not name a top 10 player other than Olajuwon that his career defined by only 3 seasons.

[Horde of Temujin]

Numero uno

[2010splash]

Definitely the second best center of all time. Only Shaq was better.

[ThaRegul8r]

Changes from time to time. I'd say 8-11 range.

As for peaks, he's top 5 probably.
From 1992-93 to 1994-95;
27.0/12.0/3.6/3.8/1.8 on .525 fg .751 ft regular season
29.8/11.4/4.4/3.7/1.5 on .524 fg .754 ft playoffs
2x DPoY
1x MVP (Could have been 2. He had a great case for the 1993 MVP.)
2x FMVP

But I can not name a top 10 player other than Olajuwon that his career defined by only 3 seasons.

If one were to make a list, there would be different rankings for peak vs. career. When people think of Hakeem they're thinking of '93-95, put that wasn't indicative of his whole career.

[Whoah10115]

Close thread.

LeBron is pushing #10 right now. Another ship LeBronzy pushes Kobe out.



This is so lame. It's awful.

[Odinn]

If one were to make a list, there would be different rankings for peak vs. career. When people think of Hakeem they're thinking of '93-95, put that wasn't indicative of his whole career.

Top peaks (based on 3 seasons) since 1979-80 season;

Moses Malone; 1981-83
RS: 27.8ppg / 14.9rpg / 1.6apg / 1.0spg / 1.8bpg / 3.6tpg / 0.515fg% / 0.760ft%
PO: 26.3ppg / 15.2rpg / 1.8apg / 0.9spg / 1.6bpg / 2.8tpg / 0.493fg% / 0.723ft%
Individual achievements; 2x MVP. 1x FMVP. 2x All-NBA 1st Team. 1x All-NBA 2nd Team. 1x All-Defensive 1st Team.
Team achievements; 2x NBA Finals. 1x NBA Championship.

Larry Bird; 1984-86
RS: 26.2ppg / 10.1rpg / 6.7apg / 1.8spg / 0.9bpg / 3.1tpg / 0.504fg% / 0.889ft%
PO: 26.5ppg / 9.9rpg / 6.5apg / 2.0spg / 0.9bpg / 3.1tpg / 0.500fg% / 0.894ft%
Individual achievements; 3x MVP. 2x FMVP. 3x All-NBA 1st Team. 1x All-Defensive 2nd Team.
Team achievements; 3x NBA Finals. 2x NBA Championship.

Magic Johnson; 1987-89
RS: 22.0ppg / 6.8rpg / 12.3apg / 1.7spg / 0.3bpg / 3.8tpg / 0.509fg% / 0.870ft%
PO: 20.1ppg / 6.3rpg / 12.3apg / 1.6spg / 0.3bpg / 3.3tpg / 0.517fg% / 0.857ft%
Individual achievements; 2x MVP. 1x FMVP. 3x All-NBA 1st Team.
Team achievements; 3x NBA Finals. 2x NBA Championship.

Michael Jordan; 1991-93
RS: 31.4ppg / 6.4rpg / 5.7apg / 2.6spg / 0.9bpg / 2.5tpg / 0.517fg% / 0.840ft%
PO: 33.7ppg / 6.4rpg / 6.6apg / 2.1spg / 1.0bpg / 2.9tpg / 0.497fg% / 0.836ft%
Individual achievements; 2x MVP. 3x FMVP. 3x All-NBA 1st Team. 3x All-Defensive 1st Team.
Team achievements; 3x NBA Finals. 3x NBA Championship.

Hakeem Olajuwon; 1993-95
RS: 27.0ppg / 12.0rpg / 3.6apg / 2.2spg / 3.8bpg / 3.3tpg / 0.525fg% / 0.751ft%
PO: 29.8ppg / 11.4rpg / 4.4apg / 1.5spg / 3.7bpg / 3.5tpg / 0.524fg% / 0.754ft%
Individual achievements; 1x MVP. 2x FMVP. 2x DPoY. 2x All-NBA 1st Team. 1x All-NBA 3rd Team. 2x All-Defensive 1st Team.
Team achievements; 2x NBA Finals. 2x NBA Championship.

Shaquille O'Neal; 2000-02
RS: 28.6ppg / 12.4rpg / 3.5apg / 0.6spg / 2.6bpg / 3.1tpg / 0.575fg% / 0.529ft%
PO: 29.9ppg / 14.5rpg / 3.0apg / 0.5spg / 2.4bpg / 3.0tpg / 0.552fg% / 0.533ft%
Individual achievements; 1x MVP. 3x FMVP. 3x All-NBA 1st Team. 2x All-Defensive 2nd Team.
Team achievements; 3x NBA Finals. 3x NBA Championship.

Tim Duncan; 2001-03
RS: 23.6ppg / 12.6rpg / 3.5apg / 0.8spg / 2.6bpg / 3.1tpg / 0.507fg% / 0.711ft%
PO: 25.2ppg / 14.9rpg / 4.8apg / 0.8spg / 3.3bpg / 3.5tpg / 0.501fg% / 0.699ft%
Individual achievements; 2x MVP. 1x FMVP. 3x All-NBA 1st Team. 3x All-Defensive 1st Team.
Team achievements; 1x NBA Finals. 1x NBA Championship.

Kobe Bryant; 2006-08
RS: 31.7ppg / 5.8rpg / 5.1apg / 1.7spg / 0.4bpg / 3.2tpg / 0.457fg% / 0.853ft%
PO: 30.1ppg / 5.7rpg / 5.3apg / 1.5spg / 0.4bpg / 3.8tpg / 0.480fg% / 0.817ft%
Individual achievements; 1x MVP. 3x All-NBA 1st Team. 3x All-Defensive 1st Team.
Team achievements; 1x NBA Finals. 0x NBA Championship.

[Round Mound]

This.

A reason why he is rated at #6. & also because he beat Shaq in 1995 NBA Finals. He basically OWNED him.

He Did Not Own Shaq in the 1995 NBA Finals. He Set Up His Teamates Better than Shaq for 3-Pointers but in the 1 on 1 Departament Shaq Outplayed Hakeem. Although It Is Important to Remember That Hakeem was Guarded Mostly by Horace Grant because he Was Such a Missmatch For Centers. Hakeem is the Best CF that Played the Game (Duncan 2nd). From 1985-1995 the 3 Best Players in the League Where Jordan 1st, 2nd Hakeem and 3rd Barkley.

[Big#50]

MJ
Shaq/Duncan
KAJ
Bird
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Hakeem
Kobe
In this order. LeBron will bump Kobe off my list if he wins another ring.

[Big#50]

In Terms of Impact Players He Is Around Top 6-7. Hakeem was the 2nd Best Player in The League for Decade from 1985 to 1995 after MJ.
Wtf are you on? MJ wasn't the best player in the league since 85. Hakeem was nowhere the second best player from those years either.

[millwad]

Changes from time to time. I'd say 8-11 range.

As for peaks, he's top 5 probably.
From 1992-93 to 1994-95;
27.0/12.0/3.6/3.8/1.8 on .525 fg .751 ft regular season
29.8/11.4/4.4/3.7/1.5 on .524 fg .754 ft playoffs
2x DPoY
1x MVP (Could have been 2. He had a great case for the 1993 MVP.)
2x FMVP

But I can not name a top 10 player other than Olajuwon that his career defined by only 3 seasons.

That is so stupid, first of all, his career is only defined by 3 years by people like you who are clueless.

Olajuwon in only his second season as a pro lead his Rocket team to the finals while crushing Kareem and the showtime Lakers in the WCF and while dominating the Celtic centers in the finals.

Hell, the guy even got the highest point per game average for any center in the playoffs in league history. And he was a 6 time ALL-NBA first team player while playing in the most competitive center era in league history. He leads in blocks, he is top 10 in scoring, top 11 in rebounding, top 10 in scoring and top 10 in steals, he was a freak of nature.

Now if you want to get stuck on the 3 seasons you're writing about, take away Shaq's top 3 seasons, take away Duncan's top 3 seasons, take away Bird's top 3 season, take away Wilt's top 3 season etc.. and you'll have the same stuff..

[millwad]

He Did Not Own Shaq in the 1995 NBA Finals. He Set Up His Teamates Better than Shaq for 3-Pointers but in the 1 on 1 Departament Shaq Outplayed Hakeem. Although It Is Important to Remember That Hakeem was Guarded Mostly by Horace Grant because he Was Such a Missmatch For Centers. Hakeem is the Best CF that Played the Game (Duncan 2nd). From 1985-1995 the 3 Best Players in the League Where Jordan 1st, 2nd Hakeem and 3rd Barkley.

He got the best of Shaq and outplayed him, that's a fact.

[Whoah10115]

He Did Not Own Shaq in the 1995 NBA Finals. He Set Up His Teamates Better than Shaq for 3-Pointers but in the 1 on 1 Departament Shaq Outplayed Hakeem. Although It Is Important to Remember That Hakeem was Guarded Mostly by Horace Grant because he Was Such a Missmatch For Centers. Hakeem is the Best CF that Played the Game (Duncan 2nd). From 1985-1995 the 3 Best Players in the League Where Jordan 1st, 2nd Hakeem and 3rd Barkley.


Hakeem busted Shaq's ass every bit of that series. That's the only time Shaq has ever give, another guy credit. Hakeem busted his ass.



1v1....I thought basketball was 5v5 :confusedshrug:

[NBASTATMAN]

MJ
KAREEM
WILT
RUSSELL
MAGIC
BIRD
Hakeem
Shaq r kobe






Shaq could have easily cracked the top 4 if he was motivated like the guys in front of him.

[Odinn]

That is so stupid, first of all, his career is only defined by 3 years by people like you who are clueless.

Olajuwon in only his second season as a pro lead his Rocket team to the finals while crushing Kareem and the showtime Lakers in the WCF and while dominating the Celtic centers in the finals.

Hell, the guy even got the highest point per game average for any center in the playoffs in league history. And he was a 6 time ALL-NBA first team player while playing in the most competitive center era in league history. He leads in blocks, he is top 10 in scoring, top 11 in rebounding, top 10 in scoring and top 10 in steals, he was a freak of nature.

Now if you want to get stuck on the 3 seasons you're writing about, take away Shaq's top 3 seasons, take away Duncan's top 3 seasons, take away Bird's top 3 season, take away Wilt's top 3 season etc.. and you'll have the same stuff..
Just no. You do not deserve to be taking seriously. Sorry.

[ProfessorMurder]

Jordan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Big O

Russell, Wilt and Kareem always change places for me. The rest are set.

[Whoah10115]

Shaq could have easily cracked the top 4 if he was motivated like the guys in front of him.


How could he be more motivated when he's getting away with murder? He was content with that. He could be more deserving of his place.

[AussieG]

The thing I loved about him.. was that he was like a guard in a 7 footers body.. off the dribble.. he had all of the moves and footwork. He could do it all. People might rank Shaq higher.. but Shaq was all power. Hakeem was much more fun to watch.

[millwad]

Just no. You do not deserve to be taking seriously. Sorry.

Nice reply, you're clueless.

Lets take the 3 best years away from TD and you'll have TD as a 1 time champion while not even being the finals MVP.

And the fact that you didn't even mention Hakeem's '86 season showcases more of your ignorance. Stupid Spur fans..

[Round Mound]

Shaq Was a Better Individual Player but Not Team Player and Defender than Hakeem. Hakeem Was Finishing his Peek and Shaq Was Just Entering His Peek.

Shaq in the 1995 Finals Did Destroy the Whole Rockets Team on His Own..Outscoring, Out Shooting FG%, Out Rebounding, Out Assisting and Out Blocking Hakeem...But What Ever He Did Good His Team Did Nothing to Stop Those 3-Point Shooters. Many People Where Young When Watching This So The Hype Was that Hakeem Outplayed Shaq but That Isn`t True At All. His Team Outplayed Shaq`s Team.

[millwad]

Shaq Was a Better Individual Player but Not Team Player and Defender than Hakeem. Hakeem Was Finishing his Peek and Shaq Was Just Entering His Peek.

Shaq in the 1995 Finals Did Destroy the Whole Rockets Team on His Own..Outscoring, Out Shooting FG%, Out Rebounding, Out Assisting and Out Blocking Hakeem...But What Ever He Did Good His Team Did Nothing to Stop Those 3-Point Shooters. Many People Where Young When Watching This So The Hype Was that Hakeem Outplayed Shaq but That Isn`t True At All. His Team Outplayed Shaq`s Team.

What a bogus lie and why do you type with capital letters, that's not going to make your lie equal with the truth.

So, since you're so sure about that Hakeem didn't outplay Shaq, do a game 1 to 4 break down and tell me why Shaq has the edge more than Hakeem during the majority of the games.

[Legends66NBA7]

Lets take the 3 best years away from TD and you'll have TD as a 1 time champion while not even being the finals MVP.

I think Duncan in his run from 00-02 was very comparable to his title seasons. Though, it is hard to guage 99-00, since he got hurt at the end of the year and did not play in the playoffs.

[Gotterdammerung]

Orlando Magic guarded Hakeem with Grant? :oldlol:

False. Perhaps in stretches, when Shaq was off the floor or if Hakeem beat Shaq upcourt on offense.

Box-score watching is the first hint anyone needs to know that some people did not watch the 95 Finals. Hakeem got his on Shaq until the game was out of hand, and Shaq scored without any effect on the final score.

[Pointguard]

6. Duncan - most amazing winner in an era where he shouldn't have been.
7. Shaq - Dominant
8. Bird - all around game
9. Kobe - too many superb years
10. Hakeem - great peak and all around game - needed more years as top player.

[Whoah10115]

Shaq Was a Better Individual Player but Not Team Player and Defender than Hakeem. Hakeem Was Finishing his Peek and Shaq Was Just Entering His Peek.

Shaq in the 1995 Finals Did Destroy the Whole Rockets Team on His Own..Outscoring, Out Shooting FG%, Out Rebounding, Out Assisting and Out Blocking Hakeem...But What Ever He Did Good His Team Did Nothing to Stop Those 3-Point Shooters. Many People Where Young When Watching This So The Hype Was that Hakeem Outplayed Shaq but That Isn`t True At All. His Team Outplayed Shaq`s Team.



Olajuwon busted his ass.



What does better individual player mean? If that doesn't translate to team value it doesn't mean shit and that's that.


If Shaq wasn't getting a stat he was having no impact on what was going on.


Shaq had the best team in the league behind him and Penny played up to par with Drexler. The Rockets played better because Olajuwon busted his ass.


Olajuwon busted Robinson's ass but Robinson played better than O'Neal did. O'Neal got his stats and went to sleep. Robinson paid attention to team defense, making others better, trying to be involved outside of his points, rebounds and assists. O'Neal did. Olajuwon's performance vs. Robinson is as good as it gets, because Robinson showed up and played him and (more important) played his team...and Olajuwon was a monster. O'Neal played his own game and it wasn't near enough. Switch Olajuwon and O'Neal and the Rockets get swept.


Olajuwon busted his ass.

[Shepseskaf]

:oldlol: @ no possible way, as if it's a fact. I've seen enough people in this thread rank Shaq over Hakeem.
Unfortunately, its pretty clear that many people in this thread never saw Hakeem in his prime. He was a better player than Snaq, and should be rated ahead of him in any all-time list.

[che guevara]

6. Duncan - most amazing winner in an era where he shouldn't have been.
7. Shaq - Dominant
8. Bird - all around game
9. Kobe - too many superb years
10. Hakeem - great peak and all around game - needed more years as top player.
:biggums:

What? Hakeem had 12-13 seasons as an elite player. More than Bird's 9 or Duncan's 10-11, and the same as Shaq's 12-13. Kobe has 14 elite seasons if you count every season starting with '99-'00.

[Whoah10115]

6. Duncan - most amazing winner in an era where he shouldn't have been.
7. Shaq - Dominant
8. Bird - all around game
9. Kobe - too many superb years
10. Hakeem - great peak and all around game - needed more years as top player.


Duncan ahead of Bird is an absolute travesty.


Why shouldn't he have been the greatest winner of this era? Because he wasn't a guard?

He was on a rookie on a team that was already great and got better, was coached by a top 5 all-time coach, is part of the best organization in the game...in an era where he shouldn't have been? Can this man be any more romanticized?

[Legends66NBA7]

Unfortunately, its pretty clear that many people in this thread never saw Hakeem in his prime. He was a better player than Snaq, and should be rated ahead of him in any all-time list.

Too bad arbitrary lists can never be the same. There is more than enough of an argument of Shaq over Hakeem.

[jlip]

Truthfully once you get past the "immortal six" of Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and MJ (Sometimes Bird is the odd man out in some recent lists.) the ranking becomes extremely debatable. The next 5 of Moses Malone, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan are often interchangeable based upon a person's criteria. Really the gap between 7 and 11 is not that wide at all.

[Shepseskaf]

There is more than enough of an argument of Shaq over Hakeem.
No, actually there isn't -- to people who actually watched both in their primes.

[Big#50]

Can't believe people have Kobe as high as 5. LoL

[KOBE143]

UNBIASED TOP 10 All Time
1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Kobe
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. TD
8. Wilt
9. Shaq
10. Russell

UNBIASED TOP 5 Center
1. KAJ
2. Hakeem
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Russell

Personally this is not my rankings.. I search the internet and got this list from majority of people rankings around the world.. So theres no hidden agenda from it or whatever..

[Whoah10115]

No, actually there isn't -- to people who actually watched both in their primes.


Shaq was a massive talent who also dominated, put up crazy numbers, and actually won. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if that last title didn't happen. And it's obviously worth discussing actual play and taking into consideration what O'Neal was able to do and get rewarded for.


But, there is the basis for the argument.

[Legends66NBA7]

No, actually there isn't -- to people who actually watched both in their primes.

This thread clearly suggested otherwise. More than enough info, even peak comparisons.

[Shepseskaf]

Shaq was a massive talent who also dominated, put up crazy numbers, and actually won. It'd be interesting to see what would happen if that last title didn't happen. And it's obviously worth discussing actual play and taking into consideration what O'Neal was able to do and get rewarded for.


But, there is the basis for the argument.
Snaq is obviously an all-time great, so on that basis there's an argument -- but not a great argument for people who actually watched both of them.

[Big#50]

Duncan ahead of Bird is an absolute travesty.


Why shouldn't he have been the greatest winner of this era? Because he wasn't a guard?

He was on a rookie on a team that was already great and got better, was coached by a top 5 all-time coach, is part of the best organization in the game...in an era where he shouldn't have been? Can this man be any more romanticized?
Looks at the Spurs roster from 99-03.

[Shepseskaf]

This thread clearly suggested otherwise. More than enough info, even peak comparisons.
What part of "people who actually watched them" don't you understand? Snaq was awesome, and you can toss around his stats all day.

He just wasn't better than Olajuwon.

[Legends66NBA7]

But, there is the basis for the argument.

Yup, no doubt about it.

[Legends66NBA7]

What part of "people who actually watched them" don't you understand? Snaq was awesome, and you can toss around his stats all day.

He just wasn't better than Olajuwon.

Who are "people who actually watched them" ? How do you know who watched them play and who did not ?

I can toss stats that actually suggest otherwise ? Sure.

Again, more than debatable. The only thing I ever argued about, that it is actually debatable.

[Shepseskaf]

Who are "people who actually watched them" ? How do you know who watched them play and who did not ?
:facepalm

It should be pretty clear. Posters who primarily talk stats in the comparison probably didn't see them actually go head to head. Those who actually refer to those contests probably did.

[Whoah10115]

Yup, no doubt about it.


If O'Neal had to play by rules then it would be different, I think. He'd still be one of the best players ever but I think there would be much less clamoring for his ranking.


But when a guy is great and wins like that, it becomes difficult not to respect the argument...it also makes it difficult for me to give my most honest lists, for fear of being pelted...and also because I feel almost obligated to put him ahead of some people.

[Legends66NBA7]

:facepalm

It should be pretty clear. Posters who primarily talk stats in the comparison probably didn't see them actually go head to head. Those who actually refer to those contests probably did.

So using factual information is a problem ? Okay...

I actually did not even use any here, but whatever

[Legends66NBA7]

But when a guy is great and wins like that, it becomes difficult not to respect the argument...it also makes it difficult for me to give my most honest lists, for fear of being pelted...and also because I feel almost obligated to put him ahead of some people.

I have seen both Shaq and Hakeem ranked as high as number 2, all-time. And anybody will get their list blasted, but I understand what you mean That is the thing of having an opinion.

[rmt]

He was on a rookie on a team that was already great and got better, was coached by a top 5 all-time coach, is part of the best organization in the game...in an era where he shouldn't have been? Can this man be any more romanticized?

You talk as if Popovich was a top 5 all-time coach at that time. At the start of their first championship season, Pop had a whopping NBA record of 73-73. That's some top 5 all-time coach there. He was in danger of LOSING his job as they started the season 6-8 before rallying (that's why Avery Johnson's jersey is hanging in the rafters). Duncan didn't inherit a HOF coach who had won 6 championships the way Shaq/Kobe did. TD had to carry the team while Parker, Manu and Pop developed and grew into the players/coach they are today.

[shaq2000]

If you're considering everything for the all-time list, Hakeem doesn't have the career or dominance that Shaq had. Peak Shaq (Lakers, not Magic) was not stoppable. Period. He's ahead of Hakeem on the all-time rankings, or at worst, put them in two adjacent and interchangeable spots.

[millwad]

If you're considering everything for the all-time list, Hakeem doesn't have the career or dominance that Shaq had. Peak Shaq (Lakers, not Magic) was not stoppable. Period. He's ahead of Hakeem on the all-time rankings, or at worst, put them in two adjacent and interchangeable spots.

I have a hard time ranking them so most of the time I put them on same place but you are forgetting one big aspect of the game called defense.

Shaq in all was a better scorer but Hakeem definitely got the edge on defense and it's not close.

[Whoah10115]

You talk as if Popovich was a top 5 all-time coach at that time. At the start of their first championship season, Pop had a whopping NBA record of 73-73. That's some top 5 all-time coach there. He was in danger of LOSING his job as they started the season 6-8 before rallying (that's why Avery Johnson's jersey is hanging in the rafters). Duncan didn't inherit a HOF coach who had won 6 championships the way Shaq/Kobe did. TD had to carry the team while Parker, Manu and Pop developed and grew into the players/coach they are today.



I guess Popovich didn't do any work to get there...Thank the Lord for Duncan. So much that David Robinson -who is one of the best ever- is overlooked.


I simply don't get how Duncan was not supposed to be the best winner in his era.

Duncan is easier to build around, as he's a big man. The fact that he was a big man playing alongside another legendary big man, made it even easier to build around them. So none of that makes any kind of sense.

[ScalabrineStan]

I have him at 3 behind LeBron and Jordan. I rate players based more on merit and ability than accomplishments, essentially, only LeBron and Jordan could affect the game in more ways at an elite level than Hakeem. There's really nothing you can say against Hakeem, he's proven everything and won more titles on his own than ANYONE. Say he has better teammates, say Sampson doesn't get hurt and the two run train through the 90s, he'd probably have anywhere between 3-7 rings. Dude was the only person Jordan couldn't **** with, and he'd have given him a hell of a time if the two had ever met in the finals.

2nd best go-to move ever? Check
Most versatile defender ever? Check
Most titles on his own? Check

Weaknesses:
3 point shot
Management during his tenure in Houston

[Euroleague]

Players better than Hakeem career-wise,

Jordan
Magic
Bird

That's it.

Players as good as Hakeem prime-wise.

NO ONE

Hakeem is best center of all time BY FAR.

[Ne 1]

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem, Jordan, Russell, Wilt
Second tier (weak GOAT candidates): Bird, Shaq, Magic
Third tier (at best top 5 candidates): Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan
Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates) : Moses, LeBron, Erving, West, Oscar

[Eat Like A Bosh]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Wilt

Most definitely still in the top 10.

[Euroleague]

This needs to be said, anyone that puts Duncan or Shaq over Hakeem is a retard and should be banned for a few days.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Olajuwon busted Robinson's ass but Robinson played better than O'Neal did. O'Neal got his stats and went to sleep. Robinson paid attention to team defense, making others better, trying to be involved outside of his points, rebounds and assists. O'Neal did. Olajuwon's performance vs. Robinson is as good as it gets, because Robinson showed up and played him and (more important) played his team...and Olajuwon was a monster. O'Neal played his own game and it wasn't near enough. Switch Olajuwon and O'Neal and the Rockets get swept.

Hakeem did outplay Shaq, Robinson and Ewing during those back to back titles, but the bolded statement is truly laughable. Shaq easily played the best out of the 3 centers vs Hakeem. He was the only one who was consistently effective offensively, the only one who played up to his usual level and he did make him work for his points while Hakeem just toyed with Robinson. Hakeem had to work more vs the Knicks and was played tougher, but the Knicks were a vastly superior defensive team to the Magic and Anthony Mason guarded Hakeem the toughest out of any Knick he saw.

Shaq didn't play poorly, Hakeem was just better. He was on a ridiculous level during that entire playoff run and was easily the best player in the game at that point.

The biggest case of the stats being deceptive was game 2 when Hakeem badly outplayed Shaq and their numbers were about even. This is because Shaq was almost invisible in the first half while Hakeem dominated and Houston took control of the game and Shaq put up numbers in the second half, but Orlando never really threatened Houston.

Game 4 was the other example of Hakeem badly outplaying Shaq, though this time, the stats reflected that.

Shaq actually outplayed Hakeem in game 1, though and had 12 points in the 4th, iirc to all but guarantee a win until Anderson missed 4 straight free throws and Penny bit on Kenny Smith's fake to give him a good look at a 3.

I thought their performances were pretty comparable in game 3, which was the other close game and the game was sealed by a late Robert Horry 3.

Implying the series was decided by the center match up is wrong. Shaq's role players crumbled, while Hakeem's hit huge shots. Hakeem outplayed Shaq as I said before, but this was a massive difference. Shaq did have the more talented team, and better team on paper, probably the most talented team in the league rivaled by only Phoenix, but Hakeem's teammates played better.

Orlando was done after game 1 in hindsight. Any team giving away game 1 and homecourt in the worst possible way is almost always going to lose the finals, much less a team as young as Orlando. Other than Horace Grant who was very experienced and Brian Shaw who had made it to the second round once in '92 with Boston, the rest of Orlando's core was very inexperienced. Shaq, Penny, Anderson and Scott had one playoff appearance before '95 and that was a first round exit. Anderson was done after game 1, and Scott gave them no offense all series(31 FG% and 24% on 3s) In fact, both Anderson and Scott had as many/more FGA than points in the series. Meanwhile, Elie couldn't miss, and Horry was pretty much playing like an all-star.


Snaq is obviously an all-time great, so on that basis there's an argument -- but not a great argument for people who actually watched both of them.

The argument for Shaq isn't weak, imo. I'd take him as the better offensive player. Hakeem had far more skills and counters, but Shaq didn't need them. He could get deep position at will, and get quicker, easier baskets than Dream. This made him the better scorer, imo, and why I believe Shaq was the better option for an offense like the triangle where he wasn't allowed to work for his own ideal shot as much, and required to get deep position and go quick, or pass out and re-post most of the time yet he still scored a career-high. Dream had to work harder for his shots with less easy baskets available because Shaq was some 3 inches taller and probably 80 pounds heavier.

Both developed into excellent passing big men, though I think Shaq was the better pure passer, but you could make a case for either, particularly as playmakers considering how many looks Dream created for the shooters. Shaq definitely made crisper passes to cutters, but Dream was very adept at making a spin move, drawing 3 defenders and finding a shooter with nobody around him.

With that being said, Shaq developed as a passer much earlier in his career.

There is the fact that Dream had no real weaknesses since he made his free throws, and was a guy you could go to if you needed a game-winner because he could also hit the jumpers and wasn't as easy to double. But Dream also got to the line far less. With Shaq, he'd get entire frontlines in foul trouble and other teams into the penalty early. The hack-a-Shaq strategy also usually backfired when they were fouling repeatedly off the ball.

The difference in their defense was bigger in Dream's favor because of his mobility which allowed him to guard screen/rolls unlike Shaq, guard smaller players on switches when he had to, and still recover to block and alter shots. He also improved his post defense by the time he was winning titles.

But I'm primarily referring to both players at their best so I have to mention Shaq having a DPOY-caliber season in 2000. The Lakers had the best defensive team in the league statistically by overplaying and funneling guys into Shaq in the paint. Despite his flaws defensively, it's undeniable that he was a massive presence in the paint. That's why his teams were usually among the best in opponents paint FG%.

As far as rebounding, when both were at their best as overall players(mid 90's Hakeem vs early 00's Shaq) Shaq was the more dominant rebounder.

And there's something that's difficult to account for, which is that Shaq was the biggest mismatch I've ever seen simply because he used his unmatched combination of size and athleticism so well, and developed a skill set that complemented it. I've heard many coaches and opposing players say that Shaq changes your defense more than anyone, and I probably agree with that. I think we're starting to see that with Lebron using his size more, but not to the same extent.

I did watch both players starting with Hakeem right around the time he started winning titles. Granted, I was young and certainly couldn't analyze the game like I can now or when Shaq was at his best with the Lakers, but I do have an extensive collection of full games from Hakeem's prime and think I know his game well.

But I've seen people who know the game much better than I do and have seen just about every great center give Shaq some extremely high praise. George Karl and Bob Weiss called Shaq the best post player ever in '98, Bill Sharman called Shaq the greatest center ever in 2000 and Larry Brown said he's never seen a better player in his life than Shaq in 2001. So I don't think it's fair to say that those who watched both play can't choose Shaq. Whether you think much of my opinion or not, I think most would agree these names are more than qualified to answer.

Personally, I cringe when I see Hakeem ranked as a borderline top 10 player, I think he was clearly better than some guys who usually seem to be ranked above him, but I place more importance on a player's true prime than most.


[/b]
:biggums:

What? Hakeem had 12-13 seasons as an elite player. More than Bird's 9 or Duncan's 10-11, and the same as Shaq's 12-13. Kobe has 14 elite seasons if you count every season starting with '99-'00.

Actually, if Kobe's 2000 season counts as elite, then Shaq's first 14 seasons have to, imo. Although Kobe doesn't look done as an elite player. Hakeem also has at least as many elite seasons as Magic, who only played 12 before his first retirement, and I'd have a hard time counting Magic's '81 season as elite since he only played 37 games.

[Whoah10115]

Hakeem did outplay Shaq, Robinson and Ewing during those back to back titles, but the bolded statement is truly laughable. Shaq easily played the best out of the 3 centers vs Hakeem. He was the only one who was consistently effective offensively, the only one who played up to his usual level and he did make him work for his points while Hakeem just toyed with Robinson. Hakeem had to work more vs the Knicks and was played tougher, but the Knicks were a vastly superior defensive team to the Magic and Anthony Mason guarded Hakeem the toughest out of any Knick he saw.

Shaq didn't play poorly, Hakeem was just better. He was on a ridiculous level during that entire playoff run and was easily the best player in the game at that point.

The biggest case of the stats being deceptive was game 2 when Hakeem badly outplayed Shaq and their numbers were about even. This is because Shaq was almost invisible in the first half while Hakeem dominated and Houston took control of the game and Shaq put up numbers in the second half, but Orlando never really threatened Houston.

Game 4 was the other example of Hakeem badly outplaying Shaq, though this time, the stats reflected that.

Shaq actually outplayed Hakeem in game 1, though and had 12 points in the 4th, iirc to all but guarantee a win until Anderson missed 4 straight free throws and Penny bit on Kenny Smith's fake to give him a good look at a 3.

I thought their performances were pretty comparable in game 3, which was the other close game and the game was sealed by a late Robert Horry 3.

Implying the series was decided by the center match up is wrong. Shaq's role players crumbled, while Hakeem's hit huge shots. Hakeem outplayed Shaq as I said before, but this was a massive difference. Shaq did have the more talented team, and better team on paper, probably the most talented team in the league rivaled by only Phoenix, but Hakeem's teammates played better.

Orlando was done after game 1 in hindsight. Any team giving away game 1 and homecourt in the worst possible way is almost always going to lose the finals, much less a team as young as Orlando. Other than Horace Grant who was very experienced and Brian Shaw who had made it to the second round once in '92 with Boston, the rest of Orlando's core was very inexperienced. Shaq, Penny, Anderson and Scott had one playoff appearance before '95 and that was a first round exit. Anderson was done after game 1, and Scott gave them no offense all series(31 FG% and 24% on 3s) In fact, both Anderson and Scott had as many/more FGA than points in the series. Meanwhile, Elie couldn't miss, and Horry was pretty much playing like an all-star.



The argument for Shaq isn't weak, imo. I'd take him as the better offensive player. Hakeem had far more skills and counters, but Shaq didn't need them. He could get deep position at will, and get quicker, easier baskets than Dream. This made him the better scorer, imo, and why I believe Shaq was the better option for an offense like the triangle where he wasn't allowed to work for his own ideal shot as much, and required to get deep position and go quick, or pass out and re-post most of the time yet he still scored a career-high. Dream had to work harder for his shots with less easy baskets available because Shaq was some 3 inches taller and probably 80 pounds heavier.

Both developed into excellent passing big men, though I think Shaq was the better pure passer, but you could make a case for either, particularly as playmakers considering how many looks Dream created for the shooters. Shaq definitely made crisper passes to cutters, but Dream was very adept at making a spin move, drawing 3 defenders and finding a shooter with nobody around him.

With that being said, Shaq developed as a passer much earlier in his career.

There is the fact that Dream had no real weaknesses since he made his free throws, and was a guy you could go to if you needed a game-winner because he could also hit the jumpers and wasn't as easy to double. But Dream also got to the line far less. With Shaq, he'd get entire frontlines in foul trouble and other teams into the penalty early. The hack-a-Shaq strategy also usually backfired when they were fouling repeatedly off the ball.

The difference in their defense was bigger in Dream's favor because of his mobility which allowed him to guard screen/rolls unlike Shaq, guard smaller players on switches when he had to, and still recover to block and alter shots. He also improved his post defense by the time he was winning titles.

But I'm primarily referring to both players at their best so I have to mention Shaq having a DPOY-caliber season in 2000. The Lakers had the best defensive team in the league statistically by overplaying and funneling guys into Shaq in the paint. Despite his flaws defensively, it's undeniable that he was a massive presence in the paint. That's why his teams were usually among the best in opponents paint FG%.

As far as rebounding, when both were at their best as overall players(mid 90's Hakeem vs early 00's Shaq) Shaq was the more dominant rebounder.

And there's something that's difficult to account for, which is that Shaq was the biggest mismatch I've ever seen simply because he used his unmatched combination of size and athleticism so well, and developed a skill set that complemented it. I've heard many coaches and opposing players say that Shaq changes your defense more than anyone, and I probably agree with that. I think we're starting to see that with Lebron using his size more, but not to the same extent.

I did watch both players starting with Hakeem right around the time he started winning titles. Granted, I was young and certainly couldn't analyze the game like I can now or when Shaq was at his best with the Lakers, but I do have an extensive collection of full games from Hakeem's prime and think I know his game well.

But I've seen people who know the game much better than I do and have seen just about every great center give Shaq some extremely high praise. George Karl and Bob Weiss called Shaq the best post player ever in '98, Bill Sharman called Shaq the greatest center ever in 2000 and Larry Brown said he's never seen a better player in his life than Shaq in 2001. So I don't think it's fair to say that those who watched both play can't choose Shaq. Whether you think much of my opinion or not, I think most would agree these names are more than qualified to answer.

Personally, I cringe when I see Hakeem ranked as a borderline top 10 player, I think he was clearly better than some guys who usually seem to be ranked above him, but I place more importance on a player's true prime than most.





I can't disagree much more than I do. I had a great post on this like a year ago.


Hakeem's teammates did not show up and do a better job than Shaq's. Just not true. Hakeem made them better. O'Neal first game was his best and they were comparable that game, tho I don't think Shaq outplayed him. But Hakeem outplayed him every game the rest of the way.


In the case of Robinson and Shaq, it's clear within the outcome of both series. There's a reason San Antonio went into Houston and won two games, even with Hakeem playing the way he did. Robinson not only played him hard but he great impact thru his team defense. O'Neal went at Olajuwon a bit and that's fine, but the game is 5v5. 5v5 Shaq didn't have the impact that Robinson had.

[Rysio]

1. jordan
2. kobe
3. bird
4. kareem
5. Magic
6. iverson
7. shaq
8. barkley
9. hakeem
10. dirk

[CP3MVP]

1. jordan
2. kobe
3. bird
4. kareem
5. Magic
6. iverson
7. shaq
8. barkley
9. hakeem
10. dirk
:biggums:

[necya]

Hakeem & Kareem, my 2 favorite centers

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem's teammates did not show up and do a better job than Shaq's. Just not true. Hakeem made them better. O'Neal first game was his best and they were comparable that game, tho I don't think Shaq outplayed him. But Hakeem outplayed him every game the rest of the way.

Hakeem did make them better, but that doesn't account for the entire disparity in performances. Elie gave them 16 ppg and shot 65% overall and 8/14 on 3s. Horry played an all around game and really did give them an all-star series.

The disparity is simply too great to Anderson and Scott for example to say the difference in their teammates actual performance was because of Hakeem and Shaq. Shaq had nothing to do with Anderson blowing game 1 and certainly the difference between Scott shooting terribly and hitting his shots like Dream's role players wasn't the centers. Scott just didn't hit his shots, and that was what he was there to do.

And look at the direct contrast between some of the big shots made by Hakeem's teammates and Shaq's. Hakeem's teammates looked like they could handle the pressure, Shaq's didn't. I do think Hakeem was without question a better leader which you can potentially attribute some of this too. But that's just speculation as well, some guys handle the pressure, others don't. And you certainly can't attribute Orlando blowing game 1 to Shaq's leadership. No excuse for Anderson there. It was clear of an example of choking as you'll ever see. And choking is an overused word here.

It wasn't like Shaq's teammates didn't get looks either. And I'd definitely say Shaq outplayed Dream in game 1. Ultimately, Shaq didn't have a great overtime or anything, but I don't remember Dream taking over OT either. He had the game-winning tip in, but that one shot isn't enough for me to say they were even throughout the game, as huge as it was.

I can't disagree with you claiming Hakeem outplayed Shaq every other game. It was obvious in games 2 and 4, though I think they were comparable in game 3.



In the case of Robinson and Shaq, it's clear within the outcome of both series. There's a reason San Antonio went into Houston and won two games, even with Hakeem playing the way he did. Robinson not only played him hard but he great impact thru his team defense. O'Neal went at Olajuwon a bit and that's fine, but the game is 5v5. 5v5 Shaq didn't have the impact that Robinson had.

Sorry, but this is still among the more ridiculous things I've read here. Neither Dream or Shaq could stop the other from scoring. The few times they tried 1 on 1, each ended up in foul troubling during the series. Hakeem got help defending Robinson, but Robinson clearly was stopped defensively. It's not like Robinson got his teammates more looks than Shaq did either, quite the contrary.

Robinson's team defense didn't particularly stand out to me in the series, and it was largely negated by Hakeem essentially bending him over.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Hakeem had alot to do with Orlando's players under performing and Shaq's defense did contribute to Houston players nonperforming.

I don't care to compare the series, I get that Shaq was young and would get better. My only reason for thinking Hakeem was better was that he had less weaknesses and thoroughly influenced the game on both ends, not just more than Shaq- but for me more than any player I've ever seen period.

[Pointguard]

Duncan ahead of Bird is an absolute travesty.

Why shouldn't he have been the greatest winner of this era? Because he wasn't a guard?

He was on a rookie on a team that was already great and got better, was coached by a top 5 all-time coach, is part of the best organization in the game...in an era where he shouldn't have been? Can this man be any more romanticized?
You are right. I make a distinction between best player and GOAT. Bird is higher on my GOAT list. He isn't higher on my Best player list. My player list isn't as concerned with impact beyond basketball or team accomplishments. Bird, Magic, Wilt get a lot of points with me because of what they did for the sport. Their impact was great.

[Vienceslav]

Sitting comfortably at #10.

[Pointguard]

[/b]
:biggums:

What? Hakeem had 12-13 seasons as an elite player. More than Bird's 9 or Duncan's 10-11, and the same as Shaq's 12-13. Kobe has 14 elite seasons if you count every season starting with '99-'00.

Great players usually have about 7 years as a top tier player. Hakeem has three, maybe four where he is this type of elite. Some non top ten greats meet that standard Lebron, KG, Malone, Barkley, Big O, J West, and Petit immediately come to mind. The three maybe four list is Earl Monroe, TMac, Grant Hill, Walt Frazier, Bill Walton, Wes Unseld, Gervin, Dantley, Archibald, Durant, etc.

[Euroleague]

There isn't a single thing Duncan or Shaq could do better than Hakeem. Some people in this forum are a real joke.

[ShaqAttack3234]

There isn't a single think Duncan or Shaq could do better than Hakeem. Some people in this forum are a real joke.

Yes there were things they did better. Shaq was the better scorer, both were better rebounders, imo, I'd give both the edge as passers and Duncan was the more disciplined defender.

I have Hakeem as a better player than Duncan, and have a hard time choosing between Dream and Shaq, but saying neither did a single thing better than Hakeem is idiotic.

[fpliii]

I struggle with all-time lists, so this is a tough question. I've recently flirted with putting him at 5th on my GOAT list (I have whacky standards though), but it's a tough sell putting him ahead of Kareem (my number 5 last time I did a list, around a year or so ago). He's definitely top 15 all-time at the absolute worst, anyone putting him lower is trolling. I'd say he has to be top 10 as well, but some people use different criteria.

[Euroleague]

Yes there were things they did better. Shaq was the better scorer, both were better rebounders, imo, I'd give both the edge as passers and Duncan was the more disciplined defender.

I have Hakeem as a better player than Duncan, and have a hard time choosing between Dream and Shaq, but saying neither did a single thing better than Hakeem is idiotic.

No way in hell was Shaq a better scorer than Hakeem. Get serious. Both were better rebounders? Both better passers? Duncan a better defender?

Duncan a better defender? WTF are you on?

:roll:

OK, no chance you ever saw prime Hakeem. Absolutely zero chance you ever even once saw Hakeem playing in his prime.

[Big#50]

No way in hell was Shaq a better scorer than Hakeem. Get serious. Both were better rebounders? Both better passers? Duncan a better defender?

Duncan a better defender? WFT are you on?

:roll:

OK, no chance you ever saw prime Hakeem. Absolutely zero chance you ever even once saw Hakeem playing in his prime.
Duncan is the greatest defensive player of all time. Shaq was the better scorer. Hakeem never demanded triple teams.

[shaq2000]

Euroleague, nobody takes you seriously. You must know this by now.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No way in hell was Shaq a better scorer than Hakeem. Get serious. Both were better rebounders? Both better passers? Duncan a better defender?

Duncan a better defender? WFT are you on?

:roll:

OK, no chance you ever saw prime Hakeem. Absolutely zero chance you ever even once saw Hakeem playing in his prime.

Learn to read, douchebag. I never said Duncan was a better defender, I said he was smarter and more disciplined, which is true. Hakeem would probably be my choice for best overall defender of the last 20 years, though.

How was Shaq not a better scorer than Hakeem? I'm not talking about who had more skills or moves, I'm talking about pure effectiveness. Shaq's unmatched ability to get deep position at will is enough for me.

And yes, I'd say both were better as pure passers, though playmaking is a tougher call and you could very well make a case for Hakeem at his peak.

Rebounding isn't a particularly tough call if you're talking about them when they were at their best as overall players. When Hakeem was winning titles, he wasn't really a dominant rebounder anymore.


Duncan is the greatest defensive player of all time. Shaq was the better scorer. Hakeem never demanded triple teams.

Hakeem was doubled a ton, probably a comparable amount to Shaq actually. That's what a lot of the Rockets offense was based on.

[NumberSix]

Above Kobe

[Euroleague]

Duncan is the greatest defensive player of all time. Shaq was the better scorer. Hakeem never demanded triple teams.

I don't think Duncan was even half as good on defense as Hakeem was.

[Whoah10115]

Nothing better than #50 telling the world that Tim Duncan is the best defender of all-time.


That's better than Statutory being a Wade fan and Nash being a Nash fan... So clever. #50...lol.

[Whoah10115]

You are right. I make a distinction between best player and GOAT. Bird is higher on my GOAT list. He isn't higher on my Best player list. My player list isn't as concerned with impact beyond basketball or team accomplishments. Bird, Magic, Wilt get a lot of points with me because of what they did for the sport. Their impact was great.


That makes a lot more sense, if you disregard that Duncan isn't near Bird's level.

[madmax]

I don't think Duncan was even half as good on defense as Hakeem was.

affirmative..
I've no clue why folks think that Duncan is better than The Dream in any significant category, let alone defense, where prime young and athletic Hakeem excelled at. He was blocking any shiz which was near the basket, including the likes of Jordan and Jabbar. As for his scoring, he did fall in love with his jumper quite a bit sometimes, but that was happening later in his career, before his athletic decline

[Big#50]

Nothing better than #50 telling the world that Tim Duncan is the best defender of all-time.


That's better than Statutory being a Wade fan and Nash being a Nash fan... So clever. #50...lol.
Duncan's #1 hater talking shit. Nothing better than that.

[Whoah10115]

Hakeem did make them better, but that doesn't account for the entire disparity in performances. Elie gave them 16 ppg and shot 65% overall and 8/14 on 3s. Horry played an all around game and really did give them an all-star series.

The disparity is simply too great to Anderson and Scott for example to say the difference in their teammates actual performance was because of Hakeem and Shaq. Shaq had nothing to do with Anderson blowing game 1 and certainly the difference between Scott shooting terribly and hitting his shots like Dream's role players wasn't the centers. Scott just didn't hit his shots, and that was what he was there to do.

And look at the direct contrast between some of the big shots made by Hakeem's teammates and Shaq's. Hakeem's teammates looked like they could handle the pressure, Shaq's didn't. I do think Hakeem was without question a better leader which you can potentially attribute some of this too. But that's just speculation as well, some guys handle the pressure, others don't. And you certainly can't attribute Orlando blowing game 1 to Shaq's leadership. No excuse for Anderson there. It was clear of an example of choking as you'll ever see. And choking is an overused word here.

It wasn't like Shaq's teammates didn't get looks either. And I'd definitely say Shaq outplayed Dream in game 1. Ultimately, Shaq didn't have a great overtime or anything, but I don't remember Dream taking over OT either. He had the game-winning tip in, but that one shot isn't enough for me to say they were even throughout the game, as huge as it was.

I can't disagree with you claiming Hakeem outplayed Shaq every other game. It was obvious in games 2 and 4, though I think they were comparable in game 3.




Sorry, but this is still among the more ridiculous things I've read here. Neither Dream or Shaq could stop the other from scoring. The few times they tried 1 on 1, each ended up in foul troubling during the series. Hakeem got help defending Robinson, but Robinson clearly was stopped defensively. It's not like Robinson got his teammates more looks than Shaq did either, quite the contrary.

Robinson's team defense didn't particularly stand out to me in the series, and it was largely negated by Hakeem essentially bending him over.



I get all that you're saying, and I don't think you're being biased or anything.


I think that if you trade Robinson's performance in the WCF's for Shaq's in the Finals, that the outcomes get traded too. I think the Spurs end up swept and that the Magic end up pushing Houston to a tough tough 6 games. Tougher than what happened in the WCF's.

With that said, that wouldn't the final word. That can't take into consideration whether or not Robinson was more fitted for Orlando and Shaq for San Antonio. More importantly, it doesn't take into consideration that Hakeem was straight playing better in the WCF's and it's hard to account for a guy's best performance. It's like looking at a lot of Starks vs. MJ. Who guarded Jordan better than Starks? Even in the Double Nickel game...Starks was all over him. Sometimes, that brings out the best in the other guy. As a fellow Knick fan, I know you understand that.


And again, I disagree. I think Robinson played the game the right way and I think he was always making his teammates better. Not simply the looks he was giving, but the way he was playing. That series vs Houston was like most games, except he wasn't hitting like he usually would and the other guy was giving one of the absolute best performances of all-time.

[FindingTim]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Blaylock

[ThaRegul8r]

Duncan is the greatest defensive player of all time.

Duncan is my favorite active player currently in the league, and I wouldn't say that.

It actually irks me in that people often go to one of two extremes. Either they disparage a player and do their best to make him out to be a scrub, or they go to the other extreme and resort to hyperbole. There are few who can be objective with a realistic grasp of both their strengths and weaknesses.

[gengiskhan]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Blaylock

Duncan above Hakeem is laughable.

Duncan above Shaq is also laughable.

Where is Big O

whole list is whack.

[gengiskhan]

Above Kobe

Kobe is great but not that great where is top 10 GOATs.

Kobe is just an all-time great. #11 - #15.

[Tking714]

Behind Shaq

[ShaqAttack3234]

I get all that you're saying, and I don't think you're being biased or anything.


I think that if you trade Robinson's performance in the WCF's for Shaq's in the Finals, that the outcomes get traded too. I think the Spurs end up swept and that the Magic end up pushing Houston to a tough tough 6 games. Tougher than what happened in the WCF's.

With that said, that wouldn't the final word. That can't take into consideration whether or not Robinson was more fitted for Orlando and Shaq for San Antonio. More importantly, it doesn't take into consideration that Hakeem was straight playing better in the WCF's and it's hard to account for a guy's best performance. It's like looking at a lot of Starks vs. MJ. Who guarded Jordan better than Starks? Even in the Double Nickel game...Starks was all over him. Sometimes, that brings out the best in the other guy. As a fellow Knick fan, I know you understand that.


And again, I disagree. I think Robinson played the game the right way and I think he was always making his teammates better. Not simply the looks he was giving, but the way he was playing. That series vs Houston was like most games, except he wasn't hitting like he usually would and the other guy was giving one of the absolute best performances of all-time.

Personally, I think Shaq fit better on the Magic than Robinson would have, and Robinson was a better fit for the Spurs than Shaw would have been, which is no surprise considering each team built around their superstar.

I think the Houston series is just an example of what I've always said about Robinson. That he simply wasn't the offensive player the regular season numbers suggested, and it was shown in the playoffs time after time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is great but not that great where is top 10 GOATs.

Kobe is just an all-time great. #11 - #15.
Votes: 27,107

SportsNation Rankings

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4.Larry Bird
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Bill Russell
7.Kobe Bryant
8.Shaquille O'Neal
9.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Tim Duncan

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260

The majority has him 7th all time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

ISH's Top 10 All-time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

[Riley Martin]

ISH's Top 10 All-time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

I'd go with this, but switch Duncan and Hakeem.

[gengiskhan]

ISH's Top 10 All-time

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

The whole list is messed up.

Russell aint above Magic

Kobe above Olaijuwon is BIGGEST LAUGHABLE joke.

For god's sake, Hakeem delivered the greatest NBA Season Ever in Toughest NBA decade of '90s. NBA MVP + NBA DPOY + dominant FMVP vs Ewing. all in one year. :bowdown: :bowdown:

Kobe won consolation MVP (non-unanimous) in 2008 & lost FMVP to Pierce.

How da faaaak is Kobe above Hakeem?? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[gengiskhan]

Votes: 27,107

SportsNation Rankings

1.Michael Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4.Larry Bird
5.Wilt Chamberlain
6.Bill Russell
7.Kobe Bryant
8.Shaquille O'Neal
9.Hakeem Olajuwon
10.Tim Duncan

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260

The majority has him 7th all time.

This is the reason why Kobe is the most OVERRATED POLARIZING player in NBA History

Forget #7. He is #11 - #15 after everything being said & done.

Now that LBJ is creaping up the rankings. Kobe will never hold #10 spot.

[2010splash]

Actually, Kobe over Hakeem isn't that far-fetched at all. His overall body of work is more impressive and he has won a lot more. There's a massive difference between 5 rings/7 finals appearances and 2 rings/3 finals appearances. And if you want to argue that Hakeem was a better individual player and thus should be ranked higher than Kobe, then it's ridiculous to rank guys like Russell and Bird over LeBron and Shaq, who may have less decorated careers at this point in time but were clearly much more dominant players. Same rules have to apply.

[Pointguard]

That makes a lot more sense, if you disregard that Duncan isn't near Bird's level.

Duncan was a great defensive anchor and one of the games best winners without really ever playing with a very stacked team. He also is one of the most well rounded players ever. Ducan won twice when Shaq was in his prime and playing with Kobe. Duncan is the only player ever, to win it all while leading his team in points, rebounds, assist, blocks while being the most important defender in the playoffs and finals (Lebron isn't in the top ten yet but he didn't have the blocks anyway).

In the playoffs, Duncan play was elite level (a top three performer) about six times. Bird had like three. Duncan is boring but he's a real player. He won as much as as any other player during his time despite never really having a great number two player and two other top ten GOATs having much better teammates. He could have more excuses than anybody but he doesn't. Don't let the smooth taste fool ya, Duncan was serious.

[millwad]

Actually, Kobe over Hakeem isn't that far-fetched at all. His overall body of work is more impressive and he has won a lot more. There's a massive difference between 5 rings/7 finals appearances and 2 rings/3 finals appearances. And if you want to argue that Hakeem was a better individual player and thus should be ranked higher than Kobe, then it's ridiculous to rank guys like Russell and Bird over LeBron and Shaq, who may have less decorated careers at this point in time but were clearly much more dominant players. Same rules have to apply.

Stupid post, counting the amount of rings is pure stupidity when Kobe was the 2nd option after Shaq during the first 3-peat and Shaq was the best basketball player in the world back then. And it was against less impressive teams.

Hakeem won his first ring while having Vernon Maxwell as his 2nd best scorer on the team..

[miles berg]

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. LeBron (or Kobe for now but LeBron surpassing him is inevitable).

[Shepseskaf]

Stupid post, counting the amount of rings is pure stupidity when Kobe was the 2nd option after Shaq during the first 3-peat and Shaq was the best basketball player in the world back then. And it was against less impressive teams.

Hakeem won his first ring while having Vernon Maxwell as his 2nd best scorer on the team..
:applause:

[Whoah10115]

Duncan was a great defensive anchor and one of the games best winners without really ever playing with a very stacked team. He also is one of the most well rounded players ever. Ducan won twice when Shaq was in his prime and playing with Kobe. Duncan is the only player ever, to win it all while leading his team in points, rebounds, assist, blocks while being the most important defender in the playoffs and finals (Lebron isn't in the top ten yet but he didn't have the blocks anyway).

In the playoffs, Duncan play was elite level (a top three performer) about six times. Bird had like three. Duncan is boring but he's a real player. He won as much as as any other player during his time despite never really having a great number two player and two other top ten GOATs having much better teammates. He could have more excuses than anybody but he doesn't. Don't let the smooth taste fool ya, Duncan was serious.



Duncan was one of my favorite players before 2005, but he's never been anywhere near Larry Bird. Always had a great team and had it in a weaker era. Has 4 FMVP and should certainly have 2. More importantly, he's just never been as good as Larry Bird.


But to each his own.

[Big#50]

Duncan was one of my favorite players before 2005, but he's never been anywhere near Larry Bird. Always had a great team and had it in a weaker era. Has 4 FMVP and should certainly have 2. More importantly, he's just never been as good as Larry Bird.


But to each his own.
Finals MVP's is flawed award anyway. Duncan took weak ass teams to 57+ wins. Bird had McHale and The Chief for most of his career. Bird had stacked teams. WTF are you talking about?

[willds09]

Bottom of top 20

[Euroleague]

affirmative..
I've no clue why folks think that Duncan is better than The Dream in any significant category, let alone defense, where prime young and athletic Hakeem excelled at. He was blocking any shiz which was near the basket, including the likes of Jordan and Jabbar. As for his scoring, he did fall in love with his jumper quite a bit sometimes, but that was happening later in his career, before his athletic decline

Yep. Exactly. Duncan can't even touch Hakeem on defense.

[Big#50]

Yep. Exactly. Duncan can't even touch Hakeem on defense.
Duncan wasn't a foul machine. Duncan was usually in great defensive position. Duncan usually had his team in the top three defenses. Duncan never played in an era where you could camp in the paint and get away with a lot of contact. Hakeem never played in the perimeter player friendly era. Blocks are not the tell all on defense. Can't compare players when one played in an era where teams were averaging 120 points to a player that played in an era where holding teams to under 95 was the goal.

[Euroleague]

Duncan wasn't a foul machine. Duncan was usually in great defensive position. Duncan usually had his team in the top three defenses. Duncan never played in an era where you could camp in the paint and get away with a lot of contact. Hakeem never played in the perimeter player friendly era. Blocks are not the tell all on defense. Can't compare players when one played in an era where teams were averaging 120 points to a player that played in an era where holding teams to under 95 was the goal.

Believe it or not, some of did see both Hakeem and Duncan play. you are not convincing any of those people that Duncan was a better defender than Hakeem.

[Big#50]

Believe it or not, some of did see both Hakeem and Duncan play. you are not convincing any of those people that Duncan was a better defender than Hakeem.
Not trying to. Nor will I ever. Hakeem reached the most overrated player title on ISH a while ago.

[shaq2000]

Actually, Kobe over Hakeem isn't that far-fetched at all. His overall body of work is more impressive and he has won a lot more. There's a massive difference between 5 rings/7 finals appearances and 2 rings/3 finals appearances. And if you want to argue that Hakeem was a better individual player and thus should be ranked higher than Kobe, then it's ridiculous to rank guys like Russell and Bird over Magic and Shaq, who may have less decorated careers at this point in time but were clearly much more dominant players. Same rules have to apply.

This.

[JMT]

Definitely the second best center of all time. Only Shaq was better.

As close as I've ever come to negging someone over an opinion :facepalm

[shaq2000]

Prime Shaq > prime Hakeem.
Shaq's career > Hakeem's career.

He's higher on the list, although it's close. Deal with it.

[thefatmiral]

i was introduced to pro basketball by hakeem sweeping shaqs in the finals. i was probably about seven.

my idea of who is the best is skewed. only ranking who i have watched,90's and up
jordan
kobe
hakeem
duncan
shaq
lebron
robinson
garnett
drexler

[La Frescobaldi]

i was introduced to pro basketball by hakeem sweeping shaqs in the finals. i was probably about seven.

my idea of who is the best is skewed. only ranking who i have watched,90's and up
jordan
kobe
hakeem
duncan
shaq
lebron
robinson
garnett
drexler
That's a powerful list. No iverson, pierce, pippen, rodman or Bad Boy Pistons. Huh!! That's a cool view really

[Whoah10115]

As close as I've ever come to negging someone over an opinion :facepalm



Don't be so hesitant.


BTW, since you've watched a ton of basketball, is it just me or is there somewhat recent push for Kareem being the GOAT? When the 50 Greatest List was released, every magazine started giving their different lists for things. Kareem was someone I at least saw a little bit of and so I always ranked him the highest of the big 3 and I was always disappointed to see him #3 on every single list, behind Russell and Wilt. He was always the 3rd ranked center.


Now over the last 5 years I see him ranked as the best player of all-time on different internet lists, different people on message boards...even respectable posters. Is it just me or is this similar to the Air Apparent tag for Grant Hill, Kobe, LeBron? It's like they're always looking for someone to displace Jordan.