James Harden to Houston = Worst trade in NBA History

[2010splash]

Name me once in NBA history a team with dynasty potential WILLINGLY pissed away an opportunity to develop a homegrown super-trio just to avoid ponying up the real dough that is required of all championship teams.

Heck, name me one time a team drafted three top 10 players and made the Finals with all of them under 23 years old.

A joke and third-rate organization OKC is. They ruined something that could have been very special. Instead they have glass knees Kevin Martin in his 30’s and scrub prospects that they hope will pan out to replace the current superstar 24 year old that is James Harden.

[Budadiiii]

:cry: :banghead: :rant


:wtf:






































































:cry:

[Kingwillball]

[QUOTE=2010splash]Name me once in NBA history a team with dynasty potential WILLINGLY pissed away an opportunity to develop a homegrown super-trio just to avoid ponying up the real dough that is required of all championship teams.

Heck, name me one time a team drafted three top 10 players and made the Finals with all of them under 23 years old.

A joke and third-rate organization OKC is. They ruined something that could have been very special. Instead they have glass knees Kevin Martin in his 30

[Mr. Jabbar]

Lets not overreact. Harden + refs cost OKC the title after all.

[christian1923]

It really is a shame

[andgar923]

Harden>>>>>>>> dumbrook.

[PJR]

They could've kept him for a couple more runs and decided trade either he or Westbrook down the road to avoid the repeater tax rules. You don't break up a potential young dynast like that, that early.

They overreacted to the new the CBA. It was probably Clay Bennett putting the presure on Presti to make the deal.

[Money 23]

Harden>>>>>>>> dumbrook.
Easily. He's Urkel, without the brains. The Ninja Turtles 5th, retarded brother they kept locked away from society.

Harden was the one pushing OKC in big games. Has less weakness than Durant, was their best playmaker, possibly their smartest player last year ... and ultimately the dimension that made them SO dangerous.

Houston traded a ton of pieces for him, but they got a steal. He might end up being the best player of the three before all is said and done. That sounds blasphemous given Durant's play. But the Houston situation is IDEAL for him to add and build a resume / legacy.

He doesn't have a second option as dangerous as UrkelBrook.

[imdaman99]

you think harden gets free reign to be the player he is for houston right now, on the thunder? :oldlol:

not a chance. he would still be a very good player, but 46 pts? not happening if he was on okc

[imdaman99]

Easily. He's Urkel, without the brains. The Ninja Turtles 5th, retarded brother they kept locked away from society.

Harden was the one pushing OKC in big games. Has less weakness than Durant, was their best playmaker, possibly their smartest player last year ... and ultimately the dimension that made them SO dangerous.

Houston traded a ton of pieces for him, but they got a steal. He might end up being the best player of the three before all is said and done. That sounds blasphemous given Durant's play. But the Houston situation is IDEAL for him to add and build a resume / legacy.

He doesn't have a second option as dangerous as UrkelBrook.
dude why dont you grow up? calling someone urkelbrook? let me guess, you're 14 yrs old :oldlol:

[Thunderstruck]

If the Thunder offered him 5 million more he would have been locked up for 4 years. This is how I'm feeling right now. :banghead:

[CelticBaller]

He wasn't going to stay either way

[supe12sta12z]

He wasn't going to stay either way

Wrong.

[Bobcats2013]

Gasol for Kwame, and Vazquez for Pondexter were worse.

[La Frescobaldi]

Presti has done an amazing job with that squad any ideas to the contrary need to be squashed for bugs.
When he took over the Thunder was like 1-12 and they have built a league contender powerhouse. Yah everyone knew Harden is great but how much money do you pay 6th man?
1 trade and who knows how it will play out in the long run

[boozehound]

Easily. He's Urkel, without the brains. The Ninja Turtles 5th, retarded brother they kept locked away from society.

Harden was the one pushing OKC in big games. Has less weakness than Durant, was their best playmaker, possibly their smartest player last year ... and ultimately the dimension that made them SO dangerous.

Houston traded a ton of pieces for him, but they got a steal. He might end up being the best player of the three before all is said and done. That sounds blasphemous given Durant's play. But the Houston situation is IDEAL for him to add and build a resume / legacy.

He doesn't have a second option as dangerous as UrkelBrook.
what was a ton of pieces? martin, Lamb (who may or may not ever amount to anything), and three picks (which they had been stockpiling? OKC sent back 3 nothing players as well (which is what I consider lamb and at least the 2nd round pick). Houston made out great IMO.

[Thunderstruck]

He wasn't going to stay either way

Yes he was. He wanted to resign at the max, 4 years/60 million. He came out and admitted the trade was a shock and he wanted to and expected to stay in OKC. Presti low-balled him, reportedly 4 years 54-55 million. Harden declined that offer and was shipped out the next day. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[dbk123]

He wasn't going to stay either way
nikka you cray

[supe12sta12z]

what was a ton of pieces? martin, Lamb (who may or may not ever amount to anything), and three picks (which they had been stockpiling? OKC sent back 3 nothing players as well (which is what I consider lamb and at least the 2nd round pick). Houston made out great IMO.

I remember when ISH posters were trying to convince me that Houston giving up all those pieces for Harden wasn't a good deal. :oldlol:

Now that Toronto pick is looking like a 12-14 pick. :roll:

[9512]

dude why dont you grow up? calling someone urkelbrook? let me guess, you're 14 yrs old :oldlol:

Family matters was popular in the late 80s and the 90s.

A 14 year old wouldn't be too hip to the Urkel-ster (Did I do that?)

[9512]

Yes he was. He wanted to resign at the max, 4 years/60 million. He came out and admitted the trade was a shock and he wanted to and expected to stay in OKC. Presti low-balled him, reportedly 4 years 54-55 million. Harden declined that offer and was shipped out the next day. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Nerd boy wanted to show Harden and the whole world that he was no nerdy pushover. His ego cost them an important player.

[Whoah10115]

Easily. He's Urkel, without the brains. The Ninja Turtles 5th, retarded brother they kept locked away from society.

Harden was the one pushing OKC in big games. Has less weakness than Durant, was their best playmaker, possibly their smartest player last year ... and ultimately the dimension that made them SO dangerous.

Houston traded a ton of pieces for him, but they got a steal. He might end up being the best player of the three before all is said and done. That sounds blasphemous given Durant's play. But the Houston situation is IDEAL for him to add and build a resume / legacy.

He doesn't have a second option as dangerous as UrkelBrook.


I agree with this, but let's be fair to Westbrook, as he was the Thunder's best player in the Finals.

[iamgine]

Could they afford to have Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka though?

[Money 23]

I agree with this, but let's be fair to Westbrook, as he was the Thunder's best player in the Finals.
No doubt. But in his finest game, also cost his team the game with a DUMB foul.

[che guevara]

I agree with this, but let's be fair to Westbrook, as he was the Thunder's best player in the Finals.
Dude... just no. You can't honestly believe that. He shot 43% for the series on 27 ppg, and that was hugely inflated by his game 4 (which was his only good, or even decent game in that series). Remove game 4 and he shot a mind-blowingly awful 36%. He was TERRIBLE in that series outside of game 4, and he was worse than his stats indicate - remember all those boneheaded plays he had in crunch time?

Durant, meanwhile, shot 55%, 39% on threes, and scored 31 a game. I hate to constantly "hate" on you, but this is the third time in the last week I've seen you make an outrageously stupid statement.

Sure, Durant wasn't doing anything that great outside his terrific scoring, but at least he wasn't actively hurting his team in crunch time like Westbrook was.

[DMV2]

I don't know if it's worst trade in NBA history but this trade is very similar to McGrady going to Orlando.

Young up-and-coming players who immediately became All-Stars and borderline MVP candidate in their new team. And yes, I do think Harden should be in the MVP discussion. He won't win it obvious, but might finish around 5th-7th in MVP votes.

[supe12sta12z]

Could they afford to have Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka though?

If they were serious about competing for a Championship, they would have kept the core together. They were more worried about the tax than they were about winning.

In the NBA, Your Window of opportunity is small. You have to take that opportunity when that window is there even at the cost of the tax. OKC decided that it wasn't worth it. And that's what they'll be remembered for as long as they don't win with their existing core.

[Draz]

This guy is amazing, they lost a true superstar.

[Whoah10115]

No doubt. But in his finest game, also cost his team the game with a DUMB foul.



I don't think he cost his team with that. It was a mistake, but that's not the game.

[PrettyCool]

OKC should have kept him and traded that turtle westbrick.

[che guevara]

This guy is amazing, they lost a true superstar.
Definitely. He's a better player AND better fit for OKC than Westbrook; one of the few decisions that Presti has blown. His game against the Thunder tonight was probably the best individual performance of any player so far this season.

He's been the best SG in the league this year, something I would never, ever have expected. And he's only 23, with basically no semblance of a midrange game. Can't wait to see how his career unfolds.

[imdaman99]

Dude... just no. You can't honestly believe that. He shot 43% for the series on 27 ppg, and that was hugely inflated by his game 4 (which was his only good, or even decent game in that series). Remove game 4 and he shot a mind-blowingly awful 36%. He was TERRIBLE in that series outside of game 4, and he was worse than his stats indicate - remember all those boneheaded plays he had in crunch time?

Durant, meanwhile, shot 55%, 39% on threes, and scored 31 a game. I hate to constantly "hate" on you, but this is the third time in the last week I've seen you make an outrageously stupid statement.

Sure, Durant wasn't doing anything that great outside his terrific scoring, but at least he wasn't actively hurting his team in crunch time like Westbrook was.
im sorry, you must be under the impression that basketball is 100% on the offense. pretty sure defense is a part of basketball as well :confusedshrug: who did dudrant (yes thats a typo) defend effectively? meanwhile westbrook was on wade, and wade had his worst finals. at some point, it felt as if the heat were feeding the ball to whoever durant was on. he was fine on offense though :cheers:

[ProfessorMurder]

Harden is better than Westbrook, but didn't fit with Durant and Westbrook. They wouldn't have won like that.

They chose to keep Westbrook over Harden.

Houston got a great deal.

If I was OKC I would've signed Harden and gotten rid of Westbrook.

[LilEddyCurry]

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Jeff Green
Ibaka

:bowdown:

[b0bab0i]

Presti has done an amazing job with that squad any ideas to the contrary need to be squashed for bugs.
When he took over the Thunder was like 1-12 and they have built a league contender powerhouse. Yah everyone knew Harden is great but how much money do you pay 6th man?
1 trade and who knows how it will play out in the long run
Harden was a top 5 sg last year. He carried the bench in okc. He was worth the money.

[iamgine]

If they were serious about competing for a Championship, they would have kept the core together. They were more worried about the tax than they were about winning.

In the NBA, Your Window of opportunity is small. You have to take that opportunity when that window is there even at the cost of the tax. OKC decided that it wasn't worth it. And that's what they'll be remembered for as long as they don't win with their existing core.
Well how much would the tax cost them exactly? If it's something outrageous then surely it would be understandable for them to trade Harden.

[AussieG]

you think harden gets free reign to be the player he is for houston right now, on the thunder? :oldlol:

not a chance. he would still be a very good player, but 46 pts? not happening if he was on okc
Similar thing with OJ Mayo and Memphis, although Mayo is clearly playing nowhere near as good as Harden. Harden is off the charts.

[AussieG]

Gasol for Kwame, and Vazquez for Pondexter were worse.
Gasol for Kwame?

Do you know that Grizzlies also got MARC GASOL in the deal.. and also other filler.. and Kwame's capspace got them Z-Bo.

So Pau Gasol for Marc Gasol and Z-Bo......... and since that trade.. they have finally won playoff games.. playoff series.. and are still improving.. and some even call them a contender.

Why are people so stupid.

[che guevara]

im sorry, you must be under the impression that basketball is 100% on the offense. pretty sure defense is a part of basketball as well :confusedshrug: who did dudrant (yes thats a typo) defend effectively? meanwhile westbrook was on wade, and wade had his worst finals. at some point, it felt as if the heat were feeding the ball to whoever durant was on. he was fine on offense though :cheers:
:oldlol: Yeah, as if that had ANYTHING to do with Westbrook. If you didn't notice, Wade was also having the worst season and playoff run of his career prior to the Finals due to injury and age. Wade averaged 23/6/5 in the Finals, and 23/5/4 through the first 3 rounds.

[Shepseskaf]

The way this board overreacts to one game is amazing. OKC handled the Rockets in their previous games, yet all of a sudden the Harden trade was a mistake?

As someone has already said, Harden would never have blossomed in OKC. He needed to get away, and they didn't need to tie up so much money in four players.

Good deal for both teams. Let's see what happens come playoff time. Will the Beard disappear again?

[che guevara]

The way this board overreacts to one game is amazing. OKC handled the Rockets in their previous games, yet all of a sudden the Harden trade was a mistake?

As someone has already said, Harden would never have blossomed in OKC. He needed to get away, and they didn't need to tie up so much money in four players.

Good deal for both teams. Let's see what happens come playoff time. Will the Beard disappear again?
People have been calling it a mistake since before the season even started. The point people are making is that Westbrook should've been traded, not Harden. Not many people are saying they should've kept all three.

[ralph_i_el]

Easily. He's Urkel, without the brains. The Ninja Turtles 5th, retarded brother they kept locked away from society.

Harden was the one pushing OKC in big games. Has less weakness than Durant, was their best playmaker, possibly their smartest player last year ... and ultimately the dimension that made them SO dangerous.

Houston traded a ton of pieces for him, but they got a steal. He might end up being the best player of the three before all is said and done. That sounds blasphemous given Durant's play. But the Houston situation is IDEAL for him to add and build a resume / legacy.

He doesn't have a second option as dangerous as UrkelBrook.


wow so much disrespect for westbrook.

Didn't you watch Harden blow it in the playoffs? Rockets play up tempo and he's the center of the offense so obviously he's going to look good

[Money 23]

Didn't you watch Harden blow it in the playoffs?
OKC wouldn't have even been IN THE FINALS w/o Harden's playoff performances.

[LilEddyCurry]

OKC wouldn't have even been IN THE FINALS w/o Harden's playoff performances.
:applause: And he was only 22 years old

[iamgine]

Gasol for Kwame?

Do you know that Grizzlies also got MARC GASOL in the deal.. and also other filler.. and Kwame's capspace got them Z-Bo.

So Pau Gasol for Marc Gasol and Z-Bo......... and since that trade.. they have finally won playoff games.. playoff series.. and are still improving.. and some even call them a contender.

Why are people so stupid.
That's not the way to look at trades.

Marc Gasol was a nobody and ZBo was not there.

The equivalent of today would be trading Lamarcus Aldridge for Andrew Nicholson.

[EllisGW]

people think he is going to be a 26 guy his whole career lol

he is putting up good numbers on an average team, i've seen this movie before. The thunder are same position as last year.

[Shepseskaf]

People have been calling it a mistake since before the season even started. The point people are making is that Westbrook should've been traded, not Harden. Not many people are saying they should've kept all three.
Some people called it a mistake, some people recognized that it was a very shrewd move by Presti. Put me in the latter group.

As erratic as he is, Westbrook was the correct player to keep. I also think it was right to keep Ibaka over Harden.

Again, the main point is if Harden had remained on OKC there is no way that he's putting up these numbers. Most people would probably be killing Presti for overpaying a bench player.

The bottom line: both OKC and Houston made the right moves with the Harden trade.

[FindingTim]

Gasol for Kwame?

Do you know that Grizzlies also got MARC GASOL in the deal.. and also other filler.. and Kwame's capspace got them Z-Bo.

So Pau Gasol for Marc Gasol and Z-Bo......... and since that trade.. they have finally won playoff games.. playoff series.. and are still improving.. and some even call them a contender.

Why are people so stupid.

good stuff. at the time, Memphis looked like idiots, but now they look like geniuses. with the downfall of Dwight Howard, I'd say Marc Gasol is the best center in the NBA. great trade for Memphis.


Some people called it a mistake, some people recognized that it was a very shrewd move by Presti. Put me in the latter group.

As erratic as he is, Westbrook was the correct player to keep. I also think it was right to keep Ibaka over Harden.

Again, the main point is if Harden had remained on OKC there is no way that he's putting up these numbers. Most people would probably be killing Presti for overpaying a bench player.

The bottom line: both OKC and Houston made the right moves with the Harden trade.

maybe too shrewd. I agree that Harden was the right guy to move, but they could have got a much better haul for him. His value was very high and Kevin Martin's was not. It's like trading a dollar for a 50 cent piece and a 2012 nickel. From what I've seen, Jeremy Lamb (the nickel) is probably Corey Brewer 2.0.
Martin is a nice fit, but they could have gotten much more for Harden.

but like they say, hindsight is 20-20. I knew Harden was talented, but I didn't foresee that he would be this good this quickly.

[Papaya Petee]

Do people not see that if he stayed on the Thunder this year he would of been an 18\4\4 45% player again?

[iamgine]

maybe too shrewd. I agree that Harden was the right guy to move, but they could have got a much better haul for him. His value was very high and Kevin Martin's was not. It's like trading a dollar for a 50 cent piece and a 2012 nickel. From what I've seen, Jeremy Lamb (the nickel) is probably Corey Brewer 2.0.
Martin is a nice fit, but they could have gotten much more for Harden.

but like they say, hindsight is 20-20. I knew Harden was talented, but I didn't foresee that he would be this good this quickly.
Like who?

[Shepseskaf]

but like they say, hindsight is 20-20. I knew Harden was talented, but I didn't foresee that he would be this good this quickly.
Harden is the only consistent scoring threat on Houston's roster and has the green light to shoot all game long. He is talented, but the situation is making him look better than he actually is.

Let's see what happens in the playoffs, when half-court defenses actually start showing up and Harden can't do his euro two-step in the lane all day.

[Jailblazers7]

I bet 75% of the people slobbering all over Harden right now will be calling him Joe Johnson 2.0 in like 3 years.

[KG215]

I'm not going back and reading the first 3+ pages of this thread, but this is (as all things do on ISH) getting out of hand. Harden was shit in the first two games against OKC. We let him and every other Rocket get off to a hot start in the first quarter, and Harden (who was about the only one other than Lin) who rode that throughout most of the rest of the game. Houston started something like 8/10 from three in the first quarter, cooled off in the second and third quarters, and picked it back up in the last six minutes of the fourth quarter.

Harden was awesome and went into God mode down the stretch. And yes, right now the Thunder are in a lull and not playing their best basketball. Shit like that happens in an 82 game season. That doesn't mean this is all of a sudden "the worst trade in NBA history."

[Whoah10115]

I'm not going back and reading the first 3+ pages of this thread, but this is (as all things do on ISH) getting out of hand. Harden was shit in the first two games against OKC. We let him and every other Rocket get off to a hot start in the first quarter, and Harden (who was about the only one other than Lin) who rode that throughout most of the rest of the game. Houston started something like 8/10 from three in the first quarter, cooled off in the second and third quarters, and picked it back up in the last six minutes of the fourth quarter.

Harden was awesome and went into God mode down the stretch. And yes, right now the Thunder are in a lull and not playing their best basketball. Shit like that happens in an 82 game season. That doesn't mean this is all of a sudden "the worst trade in NBA history."



No, but it was a pretty terrible trade. It was one before I ever imagined Harden putting up these numbers and leading this team towards the playoffs.


Toronto was obviously not going to be as bad as they were last year. That pick was never going to be a top 3 pick. The team got back nothing to make it worth giving up Harden. Yes, this might have even brought a lot of good out of Durant and Westbrook, but it's crazy to think they couldn't have gotten more for Harden.

[STATUTORY]

i honestly thought it was a good trade when it happened. I expected k mart and thabo to step up and basically approximate harden's production while allowing westbrook more freedom.

I didn't see how harden could do what he's doing with basically the same eurostep over and over again but apparently that move when done right is unstoppable.

[SpecialQue]

The Thunder had a team with THREE elite players, one of them coming off the bench. I don't care what they got for him, trading Harden was one of the most retarded trades in NBA history. The Rockets made out like bandits with this trade.

[bl2k8]

people think he is going to be a 26 guy his whole career lol

he is putting up good numbers on an average team, i've seen this movie before. The thunder are same position as last year.
So bascically they're set up to take an L to the Heat again if they reach the finals.

That team cannot beat MIA

[LilEddyCurry]

OKC's biggest mistake:
http://blog.newsok.com/thunderrumblings/files/2011/11/Kendrick-Perkins-Thunder1.jpg

[B4llin]

As a Thunder fan it just makes me REALLY SAD!

[B4llin]

As a Thunder fan it just makes me REALLY SAD!

However it has made the Rockets and incredibly fun team to watch, and as Harden was my fav thunder player, I do have another team to root for which isn't so bad.

[steve franchise]

I bet 75% of the people slobbering all over Harden right now will be calling him Joe Johnson 2.0 in like 3 years.

Except Harden gets to the FT line at will.

[Whoah10115]

I bet 75% of the people slobbering all over Harden right now will be calling him Joe Johnson 2.0 in like 3 years.



This is truly ridiculous. Joe Johnson was never as good as Harden is right now, nor was he ever close. The one season he put up crazy stats was the ultimate example of a player playing on a bad team and padding his way towards his big contract.


Joe Johnson goes iso iso iso and his impact is good. He's never been the lead dog the way people suggest. He never took the responsibility of being the first option. He just wanted the ball.


If people are ever whining about Harden it's because he's having a bad run or because he suddenly falls flat. Or because people are full of shit.

[FindingTim]

Like who?
I'm not sure. that's a good point. maybe a Klay Thompson shooter type, or a scoring power forward to compliment Ibaka? not sure about salaries..


Harden is the only consistent scoring threat on Houston's roster and has the green light to shoot all game long. He is talented, but the situation is making him look better than he actually is.

Let's see what happens in the playoffs, when half-court defenses actually start showing up and Harden can't do his euro two-step in the lane all day.
I agree with the bold. I think this season will be his best year statistically.
but he is still a bigtime force on offense, and he has had monster games against the two best teams in the NBA (Miami and OKC), for what that's worth. It's not like he is just unleashing his wrath on the Bobcats and Kings every night.
And this isn't quite a "Ricky Davis" Cavs situation where he is the only non-D-League talent on his team; Lin, Parsons, and Asik are good players.

[TOUCH MY BODY]

Artesia High School product :bowdown:

[Teanett]

[QUOTE=2010splash]Name me once in NBA history a team with dynasty potential WILLINGLY pissed away an opportunity to develop a homegrown super-trio just to avoid ponying up the real dough that is required of all championship teams.

Heck, name me one time a team drafted three top 10 players and made the Finals with all of them under 23 years old.

A joke and third-rate organization OKC is. They ruined something that could have been very special. Instead they have glass knees Kevin Martin in his 30

[ukballer]

I think a big question is, would we have ever seen this very James Harden if he remained an OKC player?

This first option role was thrust upon him in a way, and there were doubts, but obviously it's working out.

What would his ceiling be as the 6th man with OKC for another 4 seasons? This was a great trade for the NBA neutral fan.

[mjokc]

I think a big question is, would we have ever seen this very James Harden if he remained an OKC player?

This first option role was thrust upon him in a way, and there were doubts, but obviously it's working out.

What would his ceiling be as the 6th man with OKC for another 4 seasons? This was a great trade for the NBA neutral fan.

This

Harden would still be around an 18 ppg player in OKC. People really need to get a grip, OKC couldn't offer 3 max contracts all to wing players. Especially when we already have a superstar and durant and a proven player in westbrook. Holler at me when Harden is dropping 40 points in the finals.

[Teanett]

I think a big question is, would we have ever seen this very James Harden if he remained an OKC player?

This first option role was thrust upon him in a way, and there were doubts, but obviously it's working out.

What would his ceiling be as the 6th man with OKC for another 4 seasons? This was a great trade for the NBA neutral fan.

no doubt.
he was already their best playmaker last year.
he was already an olympian.
he outplayed kobe in the playoffs.
i would have traded him for melo straight up.

[ukballer]

This

Harden would still be around an 18 ppg player in OKC. People really need to get a grip, OKC couldn't offer 3 max contracts all to wing players. Especially when we already have a superstar and durant and a proven player in westbrook. Holler at me when Harden is dropping 40 points in the finals.

Yup. Sure, it was clear Harden couldn't spread his wings in OKC as much as he can now in Houston, but that was for a reason. As you said, KD and Russ are proven.

And sure, K-Mart isn't as good as Harden, but he's still pretty close to his career averages while coming off the bench.

From an OKC fans perspective, it would have been nice for them to keep Harden, but unrealistic. I thought they did the right thing at the time, and still have the same opinion today. I'm really happy for Harden though at the same time.

[mjokc]

Yup. Sure, it was clear Harden couldn't spread his wings in OKC as much as he can now in Houston, but that was for a reason. As you said, KD and Russ are proven.

And sure, K-Mart isn't as good as Harden, but he's still pretty close to his career averages while coming off the bench.

From an OKC fans perspective, it would have been nice for them to keep Harden, but unrealistic. I thought they did the right thing at the time, and still have the same opinion today. I'm really happy for Harden though at the same time.

It's a damn shame that people can't just leave it at that. People feel the need to taunt OKC fans about it as if we had any say on Harden getting traded. He's balling in Houston, that's good. However he wouldn't be getting that many touches here.

[Shepseskaf]

but he is still a bigtime force on offense, and he has had monster games against the two best teams in the NBA (Miami and OKC), for what that's worth. It's not like he is just unleashing his wrath on the Bobcats and Kings every night.
Harden has proven that he is a legit regular season #1 option on a good team. That was a real question at the beginning of the season.

I was skeptical, but will acknowledge that I was wrong, as he's thrived in that role -- though at times he's had some horrible shooting stretches, with lots of turnovers.

The real test of this trade will come in the playoffs. Harden struggles against elite perimeter defenses. Long, athletic defenders like Iggy and Batum definitely gave him problems.

If he gets shut down, Houston has no chance in a series. It will be interesting to see if the team can hold on to the #8 playoff spot once the pressure starts to build and the Lakers make a run.

[Kujo]

One wonders if OKC would have still traded Harden if played like he in that San Antonio series, and they ended up beating the Heat to win the NBA title. I doubt it.

[Jailblazers7]

This is truly ridiculous. Joe Johnson was never as good as Harden is right now, nor was he ever close. The one season he put up crazy stats was the ultimate example of a player playing on a bad team and padding his way towards his big contract.


Joe Johnson goes iso iso iso and his impact is good. He's never been the lead dog the way people suggest. He never took the responsibility of being the first option. He just wanted the ball.


If people are ever whining about Harden it's because he's having a bad run or because he suddenly falls flat.

It really isnt tho with the nature of fans, especially ISH. A couple first/second round exist and a couple bad games late in a series and everyone will be calling him a number 2 option who cant be the man, similar to Joe Johnson. Not saying its correct by Im willing to bet thats the trend his career will follow.

I hope he gets some early playoff success and avoids all that tho because hes a great playet to watch.

[Shepseskaf]

One wonders if OKC would have still traded Harden if played like he in that San Antonio series, and they ended up beating the Heat to win the NBA title. I doubt it.
The answer is obvious. Winning titles changes everything.

Harden didn't show up at the most important time last season, so he got traded. There were other factors, of course, but you can't lay an egg in the Finals then demand max money.

[ILLsmak]

I'm certainly surprised he's beasting. I didn't think he was a max player. Who knows, though... on OKC a guy like Ibaka might still be worth more. They have plenty of scoring.

-Smak

[Bigsmoke]

you think harden gets free reign to be the player he is for houston right now, on the thunder? :oldlol:

not a chance. he would still be a very good player, but 46 pts? not happening if he was on okc

but at the same time Harden is MILES better than Martin

[Blue&Orange]

Let's not forget OKC could have Chandler instead of Perkins

Frog, Harden, KD, Ibaka, Chandler



Are u kidding me?

[Mr Exlax]

The only reason Harden is putting up these numbers is because he has free reign to do so. He could do this in OKC, but then that's gonna take away shots from Durant. I would include Westbrook, but shit nothing's taking his shots away lol.

[supe12sta12z]

The only reason Harden is putting up these numbers is because he has free reign to do so. He could do this in OKC, but then that's gonna take away shots from Durant. I would include Westbrook, but shit nothing's taking his shots away lol.

Why are all these ISH posters so focused on PPG? OKC doesn't need his 26 PPG, but they need his ABILITY. His ability to handle the ball, rebounding, creating for himself and others, Running the offense, getting to the line, exploiting the second unit, and creating space for his teammates at the end of games while exploiting teams that over pursues Durant and Westbrook. All of that and his efficiency were off the charts. It's obvious that the guy bring much more to the table than just his ppg.

[IGOTGAME]

who didn't see this coming? it was just arrogant and shortsighted.


The only reason Harden is putting up these numbers is because he has free reign to do so. He could do this in OKC, but then that's gonna take away shots from Durant. I would include Westbrook, but shit nothing's taking his shots away lol.

has was possible the most efficient player in the NBA on OKC.

[Mr Exlax]

Why are all these ISH posters so focused on PPG? OKC doesn't need his 26 PPG, but they need his ABILITY. His ability to handle the ball, rebounding, creating for himself and others, Running the offense, getting to the line, exploiting the second unit, and creating space for his teammates at the end of games while exploiting teams that over pursues Durant and Westbrook. All of that and his efficiency were off the charts. It's obvious that the guy bring much more to the table than just his ppg.

His assists per game haven't just like jumped through the roof I don't think. I haven't really checked. More rebounds I'm guessing. Still effecient as hell. When the trade happened, I said Martin would give them the same number of PPG that Harden did. I expected Eric Maynor would be the PG on their second unit. He was good the season before last. Good as in a solid back up PG. The only time I figured they would miss him are the times when they needed him on the floor with Durant and Westbrook and running the offense. Maynor and Martin rolled into one. I haven't paid attention to OKC since Harden is here now, but how has Maynor played so far this season?

[bagelred]

james harden trade is FAR from worst trade. OKC was forced to do it for money reasons, and they still got a nice package of assets back.

To me, DWIGHT HOWARD has to be one of the worst trades in history. Orlando got back basically nothing for a Top 3 talent (top 3 at the time). Pathetic. Real pathetic.

[Mr Exlax]

who didn't see this coming? it was just arrogant and shortsighted.



has was possible the most efficient player in the NBA on OKC.


Haters didn't see it I'm guessing. I had to argue a ton of my buddies down when we traded for him and then signed him to the max. One of my closest friends is a basketball coach and he said Harden would be another Trevor Ariza lol. I asked him if he had ever actually watched Harden play. Of course, he brought up the shut down in the finals. My thing with that is he wasn't on the floor with Durant and Westbrook right? He was out there with the second unit and the defense keyed in on him and sent doubles and all that to get the ball out of his hands. What was he supposed to do?

[supe12sta12z]

His assists per game haven't just like jumped through the roof I don't think. I haven't really checked. More rebounds I'm guessing. Still effecient as hell. When the trade happened, I said Martin would give them the same number of PPG that Harden did. I expected Eric Maynor would be the PG on their second unit. He was good the season before last. Good as in a solid back up PG. The only time I figured they would miss him are the times when they needed him on the floor with Durant and Westbrook and running the offense. Maynor and Martin rolled into one. I haven't paid attention to OKC since Harden is here now, but how has Maynor played so far this season?

He does a great job sitting on the bench.

[Mr Exlax]

He does a great job sitting on the bench.

Damn!!!!! For real? He doesn't look right because of the injury you think or did he lose his skill? So the Jackson cat is the back up PG now? Hell I thought it was the other way around lol.

[Jasper]

[QUOTE=2010splash]Name me once in NBA history a team with dynasty potential WILLINGLY pissed away an opportunity to develop a homegrown super-trio just to avoid ponying up the real dough that is required of all championship teams.

Heck, name me one time a team drafted three top 10 players and made the Finals with all of them under 23 years old.

A joke and third-rate organization OKC is. They ruined something that could have been very special. Instead they have glass knees Kevin Martin in his 30

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Easily. He's Urkel, without the brains. The Ninja Turtles 5th, retarded brother they kept locked away from society.

Harden was the one pushing OKC in big games. Has less weakness than Durant, was their best playmaker, possibly their smartest player last year ... and ultimately the dimension that made them SO dangerous.

Houston traded a ton of pieces for him, but they got a steal. He might end up being the best player of the three before all is said and done. That sounds blasphemous given Durant's play. But the Houston situation is IDEAL for him to add and build a resume / legacy.

He doesn't have a second option as dangerous as UrkelBrook.
Don't necessarily agree on that point. But everything else is spot on.

And yes I felt like OKC threw away a potential dynasty by dumping Harden just to save a few bucks. Jerry Buss was willing to spend in order for the Lakers to win. And Hopefully Presti can be like that too. You can't win while being a cheapskate. OKC fans should be furious.

[DMAVS41]

Keeping Harden/Westbrook/Durant was silly and Presti knew it. The only thing you could maybe fault him for is keeping Westbrook over Harden.

Not because Harden is better. I actually think Westbrook is the better player, but the fact that Westbrook's trade value was so much higher so they could have gotten a lot more back probably.

[supe12sta12z]

Keeping Harden/Westbrook/Durant was silly and Presti knew it. The only thing you could maybe fault him for is keeping Westbrook over Harden.

Not because Harden is better. I actually think Westbrook is the better player, but the fact that Westbrook's trade value was so much higher so they could have gotten a lot more back probably.

How was it silly? It was very possible scenario and Harden had no problems giving OKC a discount to stay. They could have easily kept the core together for another 3-4 years.

[DMAVS41]

How was it silly? It was very possible scenario and Harden had no problems giving OKC a discount to stay. They could have easily kept the core together for another 3-4 years.

To keep Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Harden together is very unlikely just on the money alone. So that is the first problem.

The next problem is having 4 guys like that. It is the law of diminishing returns. Not to mention the progress of the players would be somewhat stunted at times and I don't love (and neither did Presti) the lineup that creates.

The move cut costs and still gives them a chance to win the title immediately with more flexibility in the long run.

I mean are people just ignoring that Martin is giving the Thunder 15ppg on 45/43/90 efficiency? And he doesn't need the ball as much as Harden did. I'd say the trade worked out really well for both teams.

[Kingwillball]

Trading Harden was silly to say least and looking back if they could do it again wonder if they would trade Westbrook instead who probably would fetch more including a REAL pg which would allow Harden to Flourish plus OKC would have a lot smoother offense in halfcourt sets and would make better decisions.

[DMAVS41]

Trading Harden was silly to say least and looking back if they could do it again wonder if they would trade Westbrook instead who probably would fetch more including a REAL pg which would allow Harden to Flourish plus OKC would have a lot smoother offense in halfcourt sets and would make better decisions.

You do realize that Harden is playing on a team playing the fastest pace in the league right?

I really like Harden, but the notion that he's much better or even better than Westbrook is hardly concrete.

The one thing, and I said this earlier, was that trading Westbrook might have been better solely because he had significantly higher trade value. But even then it is always difficult to mix and match the right players. What the Thunder did know is that a team led by Westbrook and Durant just made the finals and they are only going to get better as players.

[supe12sta12z]

To keep Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Harden together is very unlikely just on the money alone. So that is the first problem.

The next problem is having 4 guys like that. It is the law of diminishing returns. Not to mention the progress of the players would be somewhat stunted at times and I don't love (and neither did Presti) the lineup that creates.

The move cut costs and still gives them a chance to win the title immediately with more flexibility in the long run.

I mean are people just ignoring that Martin is giving the Thunder 15ppg on 45/43/90 efficiency? And he doesn't need the ball as much as Harden did. I'd say the trade worked out really well for both teams.

What? That very same roster got them to the Finals a year ago. You don't get back by making your team noticeably weaker. The roster may not be sustainable in the long run but in the short term, it's very feasible. A window of 4 years isn't too much to ask for especially for a player who's still growing.

[disel]

Only an idiot would say Westbrook>Harden. Harden brings far more to the tabel.

[DMAVS41]

What? That very same roster got them to the Finals a year ago. You don't get back by making your team noticeably weaker. The roster may not be sustainable in the long run but in the short term, it's very feasible. A window of 4 years isn't too much to ask for especially for a player who's still growing.

With the new rules...it's virtually impossible to keep harden/ibaka/durant/westbrook long term. You can't just ignore that.

And again. Noticeably weaker? I don't think so at all.

[supe12sta12z]

With the new rules...it's virtually impossible to keep harden/ibaka/durant/westbrook long term. You can't just ignore that.

And again. Noticeably weaker? I don't think so at all.

4 years isn't longterm. Are you kidding me? This isn't a 6 year 100+ million dollar contract here. It's 4 years. You haven't noticed Martin's 1 dimensonal play? He offers nothing other than scoring. His production is slowly dropping. Nowhere near as productive as Harden.

[disel]

What? That very same roster got them to the Finals a year ago. You don't get back by making your team noticeably weaker. The roster may not be sustainable in the long run but in the short term, it's very feasible. A window of 4 years isn't too much to ask for especially for a player who's still growing.
You douche. Because the Thunder play an slow down game. They lead the lead in scoring by running the lanes and using their freaks of nature they call players in the open court. The Thunder has the most athletic squad in the leauge.

[supe12sta12z]

You douche. Because the Thunder play an slow down game. They lead the lead in scoring by running the lanes and using their freaks of nature they call players in the open court. The Thunder has the most athletic squad in the leauge.

WTF are you babbling about?

[disel]

WTF are you babbling about?
Shut ya mouth ******

[DMAVS41]

4 years isn't longterm. Are you kidding me? This isn't a 6 year 100+ million dollar contract here. It's 4 years. You haven't noticed Martin's 1 dimensonal play? He offers nothing other than scoring. His production is slowly dropping. Nowhere near as productive as Harden.

Lets see what happens in the playoffs. To date, Martin has filled in very nicely and nobody would be saying any of this if the Thunder didn't drop a few games lately combined with Harden going nuts last night.

Typical crazy over-reaction. First it was the Thunder were going to miss Harden a ton...then they weren't...now they do again. Same old story.

[supe12sta12z]

Shut ya mouth ******

That's all you got? why don't you bring facts to the table? No one can understand your incoherent drivel. OKC pace isn't much different from last season. Grow up son.

[supe12sta12z]

Lets see what happens in the playoffs. To date, Martin has filled in very nicely and nobody would be saying any of this if the Thunder didn't drop a few games lately combined with Harden going nuts last night.

Typical crazy over-reaction. First it was the Thunder were going to miss Harden a ton...then they weren't...now they do again. Same old story.

Trading Harden was ALWAYS a mistake. There were no flip flopping on my end. It was on the day of the trade and still is today. Nothing has changed. And nothing will unless they get back to the finals and win.

[DMAVS41]

Trading Harden was ALWAYS a mistake. There were no flip flopping on my end. It was on the day of the trade and still is today. Nothing has changed. And nothing will unless they get back to the finals and win.

How is that a fair standard? They got their shit kicked in the finals with Harden being a huge reason they lost in the finals.

Now, without him, they have to win it all to make you think it wasn't a huge mistake? Makes no sense at all. Harden had 3 stinkers in 5 finals games...the Thunder just happened to win one of them. And really the last game is worthless because of the blowout.

If you are going to take that stance...then you are being unreasonable and there is no point in discussing this.

[supe12sta12z]

How is that a fair standard? They got their shit kicked in the finals with Harden being a huge reason they lost in the finals.

Now, without him, they have to win it all to make you think it wasn't a huge mistake? Makes no sense at all. Harden had 3 stinkers in 5 finals games...the Thunder just happened to win one of them. And really the last game is worthless because of the blowout.

If you are going to take that stance...then you are being unreasonable and there is no point in discussing this.

Again, you ISH posters love to refer to 1 series to define his career. It's gets old and is pointless. According you ISH, Harden can't improve his play. They were well on their way back to the finals as Western conference favorites and would have another 4 years to win the title. Instead, they have Martin for 1 year, a late lottery pick, and Lamb who they're basically dangling as a trade piece.

How's that for #Winning.

[pegasus]

Lets not overreact. Harden + refs cost OKC the title after all.
This. He needs to prove himself in the playoffs before he's called a superstar.

[DMAVS41]

Again, you ISH posters love to refer to 1 series to define his career. It's gets old and is pointless. According you ISH, Harden can't improve his play. They were well on their way back to the finals as Western conference favorites and would have another 4 years to win the title. Instead, they have Martin for 1 year, a late lottery pick, and Lamb who they're basically dangling as a trade piece.

How's that for #Winning.

What. Talk about reading way too much into a statement.

I simply said that Harden really sucked most of the finals and was probably the biggest reason the Thunder lost. So how can you say this year is a failure if the the Thunder don't win it all?

Nobody said Harden can't improve...but have you ever thought that he wouldn't improve all that much playing only 31 minutes a game? Have you ever thought having Harden on the Thunder would curb the improvement of Westbrook / Durant/ Ibaka?

Have you thought about what it would potentially do to team chemistry with the Harden / Westbrook dilemma?

[chazzy]

I'd rather have Harden as my team's best player than Westbrook. He's more skilled and is a better natural playmaker and isolation scorer IMO. Westbrook's impact goes beyond his numbers with his relentless attacking putting pressure on defenses and opening things up on the perimeter.. but I don't think he'd be doing as well as Harden is right now in this situation. I'm not entirely sure if OKC would be better with Harden instead of Westbrook though because that's a different dynamic. OKC is already an elite offense, and Westbrook is more disruptive defensively.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'd rather have Harden as my team's best player than Westbrook. He's more skilled and is a better natural playmaker and isolation scorer IMO.

This. Westbrook is REALLY overrated.

[DMAVS41]

This. Westbrook is REALLY overrated.

How is that the conclusion you got from his post?

[supe12sta12z]

What. Talk about reading way too much into a statement.

I simply said that Harden really sucked most of the finals and was probably the biggest reason the Thunder lost. So how can you say this year is a failure if the the Thunder don't win it all?

Nobody said Harden can't improve...but have you ever thought that he wouldn't improve all that much playing only 31 minutes a game? Have you ever thought having Harden on the Thunder would curb the improvement of Westbrook / Durant/ Ibaka?

Have you thought about what it would potentially do to team chemistry with the Harden / Westbrook dilemma?

That's a non-issue. They could take some minutes away from Thabo if they wanted to give him more minutes. He was 23, nowhere near his prime. He was still improving regardless of the minutes he received. He fitted in perfectly and the chemistry was NOT a problem. He could play both on and off ball well which is why it works. The quality of his play meshed well with his teammates.. especially his efficiency to score and create.

Keeping Harden gave them the best chance of winning it all. It's not unreasonable to believe that they would have won at least 1 if they resigned him for another 4 years. Talent like his doesn't grow on trees. How many Championships would the Spurs have won if they gave Ginobili away early in his career?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How is that the conclusion you got from his post?

Well, that's just my opinion. I agree w/ his post in that I'd rather have Harden than Westbrook.

[DMAVS41]

Well, that's just my opinion. I agree w/ his post in that I'd rather Harden over Westbrook.

He said he'd rather of Harden over Westbrook as the best player on a team. Which is something I would probably agree with it...although it would be very close for me.

[DMAVS41]

That's a non-issue. They could take some minutes away from Thabo if they wanted to give him more minutes. He was 23, nowhere near his prime. He was still improving regardless of the minutes he received. He fitted in perfectly and the chemistry was NOT a problem. He could play both on and off ball well which is why it works. The quality of his play meshed well with his teammates.. especially his efficiency to score and create.

Keeping Harden gave them the best chance of winning it all. It's not unreasonable to believe that they would have won at least 1 if they resigned him for another 4 years. Talent like his doesn't grow on trees. How many Championships would the Spurs have won if they gave Ginobili away early in his career?

Nobody said they are better without him. But unfortunately we live in the real world where more than just winning basketball games factor in.

What I do know is that what Harden as a bench player gives you can be replaced. What Harden as a starter gives you is much harder to replace. The problem is that Harden can't be the player he is now on the Thunder with Westbrook and Durant. So that was the dilemma.

Presti chose to go with Westbrook...and I think that was the smart thing personally.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He said he'd rather of Harden over Westbrook as the best player on a team. Which is something I would probably agree with it...although it would be very close for me.

Well yeah, he's a better player :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Well yeah, he's a better player :confusedshrug:

Hmmmm. Not sure I think that is the standard for determining who the better player is. But even if it were....that still doesn't address reality.

Reality is that what the Thunder need...is best addressed by Westbrook in my opinion.

[tontoz]

He wasn't going to stay either way


Harden was restricted. OKC could match any offer. If OKC wanted to keep him they would have whether Harden wanted to be there or not.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Hmmmm. Not sure I think that is the standard for determining who the better player is. But even if it were....that still doesn't address reality.

Reality is that what the Thunder need...is best addressed by Westbrook in my opinion.

How much of a better playmaker and scorer do you think Westbrook is than Harden? Is it more conducive to his teams success?

[DMAVS41]

OK.

How much of a better playmaker and scorer do you think Westbrook is than Harden? Is it more conducive to his teams success?

I don't think Westbrook is a better playmaker than Harden. I said I think that Westbrook gives the Thunder more of what they need than Harden would.

I am certainly not going to dispute what Harden is doing, but the Rockets play a style that is really conducive to putting up big numbers.

If you made me choose one for the Thunder I'd take Westbrook. If you made me choose one for the Rockets...I'd choose Harden.

But that really isn't was this is about. It's about the notion that trading Harden was this huge mistake. I just think it is a perfect example of the law of diminishing returns. 3 ball dominant perimeter players...just don't like it.

[SCdac]

That's a non-issue. They could take some minutes away from Thabo if they wanted to give him more minutes. He was 23, nowhere near his prime. He was still improving regardless of the minutes he received. He fitted in perfectly and the chemistry was NOT a problem. He could play both on and off ball well which is why it works. The quality of his play meshed well with his teammates.. especially his efficiency to score and create.

Keeping Harden gave them the best chance of winning it all. It's not unreasonable to believe that they would have won at least 1 if they resigned him for another 4 years. Talent like his doesn't grow on trees. How many Championships would the Spurs have won if they gave Ginobili away early in his career?

Actually, around the time of the playoffs there were rumblings of Harden complaining in the locker room about his minutes and role. I think after a game in which he wasn't featured much in the 4th quarter. I'm not surprised, given his talent and age.

The difference between him and Manu/Spurs is, Manu was a late 2nd round pick who came to the league in his mid-20's and perfectly willing to take a role off the bench or in the starting lineup. Harden is young and looking at multiple big contracts – and OKC already has some on the books. You have to think he was craving some freedom... behind Durant and Westbrook, it's not really there.

[Shepseskaf]

Why are all these ISH posters so focused on PPG? OKC doesn't need his 26 PPG, but they need his ABILITY. His ability to handle the ball, rebounding, creating for himself and others, Running the offense, getting to the line, exploiting the second unit, and creating space for his teammates at the end of games while exploiting teams that over pursues Durant and Westbrook. All of that and his efficiency were off the charts. It's obvious that the guy bring much more to the table than just his ppg.
I agree with most of this from a pure skills perspective, but you can't pay $16+ million a year for a bench player.

If you're going to give Harden a max deal, then his playing time has to also be maximized. It makes no fiscal sense to play him 30 minutes a game, while making all that money.

No one is claiming that Martin is more skilled than Harden, but his price tag fits much better into OKC's payroll. After this year, he'll be even cheaper, if they choose to re-sign him.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=SCdac]Actually, around the time of the playoffs there were rumblings of Harden complaining in the locker room about his minutes and role. I think after a game in which he wasn't featured much in the 4th quarter. I'm not surprised, given his talent and age.

The difference between him and Manu/Spurs is, Manu was a late 2nd round pick who came to the league in his mid-20's and perfectly willing to take a role off the bench or in the starting lineup. Harden is young and looking at multiple big contracts

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think Westbrook is a better playmaker than Harden. I said I think that Westbrook gives the Thunder more of what they need than Harden would.


Why though? What does he do that Harden can't?


If you made me choose one for the Thunder I'd take Westbrook. If you made me choose one for the Rockets...I'd choose Harden.

But why? :confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

But that really isn't was this is about. It's about the notion that trading Harden was this huge mistake. I just think it is a perfect example of the law of diminishing returns. 3 ball dominant perimeter players...just don't like it.
The move was purely financial. If they had unlimited funds they would definitely resign Harden.. he was quite effective in his role. 6th man, ran the offense when Durant or Westbrook were out and was insanely efficient with the touches he got. Martin has filled in nicely but I don't trust him to deliver consistently in the playoffs. OKC will miss his late game play in the playoffs.. he was huge in the Dallas and Spurs series. But it made sense financially - a team like OKC isn't going to give their 3rd option max money.

[LikeABosh]

Harden>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ibaka
Harden>>>Westbrook
God knows why they gave him up instead of one of those two

[supe12sta12z]

[QUOTE=SCdac]Actually, around the time of the playoffs there were rumblings of Harden complaining in the locker room about his minutes and role. I think after a game in which he wasn't featured much in the 4th quarter. I'm not surprised, given his talent and age.

The difference between him and Manu/Spurs is, Manu was a late 2nd round pick who came to the league in his mid-20's and perfectly willing to take a role off the bench or in the starting lineup. Harden is young and looking at multiple big contracts

[DMAVS41]

The move was purely financial. If they had unlimited funds they would definitely resign Harden.. he was quite effective in his role. 6th man, ran the offense when Durant or Westbrook were out and was insanely efficient with the touches he got. Martin has filled in nicely but I don't trust him to deliver consistently in the playoffs. OKC will miss his late game play in the playoffs.. he was huge in the Dallas and Spurs series. But it made sense financially - a team like OKC isn't going to give their 3rd option max money.

Of course you would rather have Harden than not have Harden if every team could just get any player they want.

But I actually don't like the makings of a team with 3 ball dominant perimeter players. I don't think it will work in the long run in reality.

[DMAVS41]

Why though? What does he do that Harden can't?



But why? :confusedshrug:


Westbrook is a better athlete and just causes more havoc on the court on both ends.

I like Westbrook's defense much better.

Can we please stop acting like Harden is God. Needs to stop. This is the same guy that essentially no showed the biggest series of his life last year. The idea that Harden is noticeably better than Westbrook as a player is absurd to begin with...and even more absurd to extend that to the Thunder being a noticeably better team with him over Westbrook.

[supe12sta12z]

Of course you would rather have Harden than not have Harden if every team could just get any player they want.

But I actually don't like the makings of a team with 3 ball dominant perimeter players. I don't think it will work in the long run in reality.

Durant isn't ball dominant. A big misconception is that Harden is that he has to be ball dominant. He's still sharing ball handling duties to this very day. He's very capable playing off ball.

[DMAVS41]

Durant isn't ball dominant.

Yea...he is. Not in a bad way...he just needs the ball in his hands a lot. Like most star perimeter players.

Having 3 on the same team doesn't make a lot of sense. Doesn't mean it won't work, but it is hardly optimal.

If they kept Harden. You are relegating him to roughly 31 mpg and 12 shots a game. His value with those constraints simply isn't worth it...

[supe12sta12z]

Yea...he is. Not in a bad way...he just needs the ball in his hands a lot. Like most star perimeter players.

Having 3 on the same team doesn't make a lot of sense. Doesn't mean it won't work, but it is hardly optimal.

If they kept Harden. You are relegating him to roughly 31 mpg and 12 shots a game. His value with those constraints simply isn't worth it...

Why do you keep harping on points like that's all he brings to the table. I don't understand that at all.

[DMAVS41]

Durant isn't ball dominant. A big misconception is that Harden is that he has to be ball dominant. He's still sharing ball handling duties to this very day. He's very capable playing off ball.

I get what you are saying. But Harden playing the majority of his minutes in that way takes away from the player he is.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Westbrook is a better athlete and just causes more havoc on the court on both ends.

I like Westbrook's defense much better.

Can we please stop acting like Harden is God. Needs to stop. This is the same guy that essentially no showed the biggest series of his life last year. The idea that Harden is noticeably better than Westbrook as a player is absurd to begin with...and even more absurd to extend that to the Thunder being a noticeably better team with him over Westbrook.

I'm not acting like he's a "God". I simply asked you to explain your reasoning.

Westbrook has had plenty of choke jobs himself; and hasn't shown ANY signs of being able to carry a team like Harden has, who does everything pretty well.

[DMAVS41]

Why do you keep harping on points like that's all he brings to the table. I don't understand that at all.

Because there is only so much a player can do in those minutes with those shots and with that amount of time with the ball in his hands.

You can't ignore the 80 combined minutes Westbrook and Durant will be on the court.

Stop talking about this as if the Thunder just could have kept Harden and not had to deal with reality.

[PrettyCool]

With the new rules...it's virtually impossible to keep harden/ibaka/durant/westbrook long term. You can't just ignore that.

And again. Noticeably weaker? I don't think so at all.

Actually you can, you just have to pay even more out of the ass to do it. The OKC situation is like a crazy hypothetical come real life that one would ask to really separate the owners who were truly in it to win it.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not acting like he's a "God". I simply asked you to explain your reasoning.

Westbrook has had plenty of choke jobs himself; and hasn't shown ANY signs of being able to carry a team like Harden has, who does everything pretty well.

Westbrook has shown plenty of signs that he can carry a team. He's one of the best players in the league.

I'm not interested in a Westbrook vs Harden comparison because I don't think they are different enough in terms of impact to warrant it. Even if we could objectively answer the question which player is better...it would mean almost nothing for this debate and it wouldn't be a large enough gap to think that one or the other is the difference in a title or not.

[supe12sta12z]

Because there is only so much a player can do in those minutes with those shots and with that amount of time with the ball in his hands.

You can't ignore the 80 combined minutes Westbrook and Durant will be on the court.

Stop talking about this as if the Thunder just could have kept Harden and not had to deal with reality.

Yea, let's disregard his ability to create, get to the line, run the offense, rebound, cause turnovers, and efficiency. But all you want to focus on his points.

You clearly ignore that Harden isn't a PG or a SF.

[SCdac]

I still don't see it as an issue. The only game he was limited was game 7 where he was awful and very foul prone. He played plenty of minutes in the playoffs. Nothing out of the norm.

As for Ginobili, the context has nothing to do with where he was drafted or what role specific role he played. It has more to do with the fact that you don't get rid of a key contributor on a championship caliber team if you don't have to.

I agree with the overall concept of "keeping the winning team together". But it's not that simple always. For instance, the Spurs one time let go of a young Stephen Jackson in the offseason, immediately following him being the 3rd scorer for the Spurs in a championship run. For small market teams, that stuff is going to have to happen. Letting Harden go is much different, but it's still all about money and strategy.

But we really don't know how much chemistry was or wasn't becoming an issue, especially with a coach who's not well-tenured at the helm. What role any given player is willing to embrace is completely relevant. You have to wonder how long Harden was willing to take a 6th man kind of role... or if him in the starting lineup would work (I think it could, but who knows with a cocky guy like Westbrook around). I don't think player-team separation is completely one-sided. Players know each other's contracts and it's not like Harden with a max contract wouldn't want to be a "max player".

[DMAVS41]

Yea, let's disregard his ability to create, get to the line, run the offense, rebound, cause turnovers, and efficiency. But all you want to focus on his points.

You clearly ignore that Harden isn't a PG or a SF.

We all know Harden is really really good. Is that your point? We all agree that he's awesome and is on his way to being one of the 10 best players in the league...maybe he already is.

But he wouldn't be one of the 10 best players in the league on the Thunder. He'd have the potential to be...but he wouldn't be able to realize the potential you are witnessing now.

Reality dude. Please come back and realize you can't always just keep everyone together.

[supe12sta12z]

I agree with the overall concept of "keeping the winning team together". But it's not that simple always. For instance, the Spurs one time let go of a young Stephen Jackson in the offseason, immediately following him being the 3rd scorer for the Spurs in a championship run. For small market teams, that stuff is going to have to happen. Letting Harden go is much different, but it's still all about money and strategy.

But we really don't know how much chemistry was or wasn't becoming an issue, especially with a coach who's not well-tenured at the helm. What role any given player is willing to embrace is completely relevant. You have to wonder how long Harden was willing to take a 6th man kind of role... or if him in the starting lineup would work (I think it could, but who knows with a cocky guy like Westbrook around). I don't think player-team separation is completely one-sided. Players know each other's contracts and it's not like Harden with a max contract wouldn't want to be a "max player".

If he was willing to accept an offer from OKC, doesn't that pretty much mean he's going to accepts his role? If OKC gave him a fair 4 year deal, he would have signed.

[supe12sta12z]

We all know Harden is really really good. Is that your point? We all agree that he's awesome and is on his way to being one of the 10 best players in the league...maybe he already is.

But he wouldn't be one of the 10 best players in the league on the Thunder. He'd have the potential to be...but he wouldn't be able to realize the potential you are witnessing now.

Reality dude. Please come back and realize you can't always just keep everyone together.

Again, you simply do not understand the context of my responses. I don't give a rat's ass where you or anyone else ranks him. All you need to know is that OKC gave away an elite player who gives them the best opportunity to compete.

You keep coming back with stupid responses like they can't keep then all but the FACT that he's restricted and was willing to resign with OKC in GOOD FAITH tells a different story.

OKC could have kept him if they wanted it. but they CHOSE NOT TO. End of story.

[SCdac]

If he was willing to accept an offer from OKC, doesn't that pretty much mean he's going to accepts his role? If OKC gave him a fair 4 year deal, he would have signed.

Yeah, but what Harden (& league consensus) thinks is a "fair contract" might be seriously handcuffing the Thunder – who didn't a championship – and that's a tough decision to make when you have the best player in the game already (not named Lebron) and a top flight PG who is reminiscent of Parker and Rose and such. OKC did offer Harden a contract, and Harden did think is was too low. So, apparently, he wasn't willing to accept the 'role' OKC was offering. Obviously it's not that simplistic, but some disagreement must have brewed IMO. and as mentioned, there were reports of Harden complaining about a small amount of shots in a Finals win.

[DMAVS41]

Again, you simply do not understand the context of my responses. I don't give a rat's ass where you or anyone else ranks him. All you need to know is that OKC gave away an elite player who gives them the best opportunity to compete.

You keep coming back with stupid responses like they can't keep then all but the FACT that he's restricted and was willing to resign with OKC in GOOD FAITH tells a different story.

OKC could have kept him if they wanted it. but they CHOSE NOT TO. End of story.

Of course they "could' have signed him. But they chose not to for all the reasons we have been talking about.

Nobody here has ever said that the Thunder are better without him....at least I haven't.

But it is about dealing in reality. Can a team like the Thunder afford to give their 6th man a near max deal and keep Ibaka. And then the question becomes...do you want to have 3 ball dominant perimeter players playing that many minutes on a team? Would you be better off trading him and getting back something for both the present and keeping options for the future more open?

What you are doing is approaching this solely in philosophical terms. Unfortunately reality is all that matters. Of course every team would always choose to keep the players that give them the absolute best chance to win each year. But that isn't reality.

I think from both a money and basketball stance that Presti made the right move in the long run. Like I said before. The only thing that may have been better would have been to trade Westbrook because they could have gotten a lot more in return.

[miles berg]

Gasol for Kwame, and Vazquez for Pondexter were worse.

Memphis got Marc Gasol, three 1sts, & the cap space to get Zach Randolph all for Pau.

That was a great trade for Memphis.

[Darius]

IMO if it's a given that the Thunder didn't want to take on big payroll, the question was should they have kept Harden or Westbrook...

... and the answer is obviously Harden.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

IMO if it's a given that the Thunder didn't want to take on big payroll, the question was should they have kept Harden or Westbrook...

... and the answer is obviously Harden.

Right...

Thing is, some people actually think Russ is a better player, thus Presti made the correct choice. I don't get it. Educate me, Westbrook fans.

[KG215]

IMO if it's a given that the Thunder didn't want to take on big payroll, the question was should they have kept Harden or Westbrook...

... and the answer is obviously Harden.
Obviously? How do we not now Westbrook wouldn't be putting up something like 25-7-5-2 in the same role as Harden? I mean he's averaging 22-8-5-2 as a second banana. This is what bugs me, when people say OKC made a mistake keeping Harden instead of Westbrook. Westbrook is still a really, really good player, and you have no idea how he might perform in Harden's role. Especially on a run-n-gun team with no other consistently legit offensive options like the Rockets.

[KG215]

Right...

Thing is, some people actually think Russ is a better player, thus Presti made the correct choice. I don't get it. Educate me, Westbrook fans.
I'm not saying Russ is definitively the better players, but it certainly is arguable. He ws clearly the second best player the last two years even with Harden on the team. He's still putting up really good numbers as a second option on a top 3 team in the NBA. Just because Harden has gone to a different team and is putting up good numbers doesn't mean he's all of a sudden clearly better than Westbrook.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying Russ is definitively the better players, but it certainly is arguable. He ws clearly the second best player the last two years even with Harden on the team. He's still putting up really good numbers as a second option on a top 3 team in the NBA. Just because Harden has gone to a different team and is putting up good numbers doesn't mean he's all of a sudden clearly better than Westbrook.

Correct.

But understand that nobody would be saying this if the Thunder hadn't lost 3 in a row and Harden didn't go for 46 last night.

Just crazy over-reactions.

The notion that there is a clear cut best player in the Harden vs Westbrook comparisons is silly.

[ukballer]

but at the same time Harden is MILES better than Martin

So what though? OKC didn't need James Harden to be the James Harden we're seeing beasting in Houston. K-Mart is doing exactly what they want from him, and doesn't, won't and can't draw anywhere near the same amount of money we already know they'd have had to pay Harden.

This is the point others have been trying to make, but it just doesn't occur to some.

Honestly, is what K-Mart is doing right now a real step down from what Harden was doing in his Sixth man role with OKC? I don't think so personally. And this is not me comparing them as overall players, don't get it twisted.

[Whoah10115]

It really isnt tho with the nature of fans, especially ISH. A couple first/second round exist and a couple bad games late in a series and everyone will be calling him a number 2 option who cant be the man, similar to Joe Johnson. Not saying its correct by Im willing to bet thats the trend his career will follow.

I hope he gets some early playoff success and avoids all that tho because hes a great playet to watch.


My bad, I misunderstood.

[supe12sta12z]

Obviously? How do we not now Westbrook wouldn't be putting up something like 25-7-5-2 in the same role as Harden? I mean he's averaging 22-8-5-2 as a second banana. This is what bugs me, when people say OKC made a mistake keeping Harden instead of Westbrook. Westbrook is still a really, really good player, and you have no idea how he might perform in Harden's role. Especially on a run-n-gun team with no other consistently legit offensive options like the Rockets.

I agree. The results would still be the same. OKC would still be missing a key piece. It's what makes that OKC team so special. You can't double any of them, you can't rely on your bench to make up deficits or hold leads, and most teams do not have the pieces to defend all 3 players. It's sad that their time together was so short. I was really looking forward to seeing them play together for another couple of years.

[Mr Exlax]

Correct.

But understand that nobody would be saying this if the Thunder hadn't lost 3 in a row and Harden didn't go for 46 last night.

Just crazy over-reactions.

The notion that there is a clear cut best player in the Harden vs Westbrook comparisons is silly.

There is a clear cut best player between the two. His name is Wussel Westbrook lol. The thing is I think Harden would've been a better fit with Durant. I have nothing to really base that on. Just what I think.

[Whoah10115]

Obviously? How do we not now Westbrook wouldn't be putting up something like 25-7-5-2 in the same role as Harden? I mean he's averaging 22-8-5-2 as a second banana. This is what bugs me, when people say OKC made a mistake keeping Harden instead of Westbrook. Westbrook is still a really, really good player, and you have no idea how he might perform in Harden's role. Especially on a run-n-gun team with no other consistently legit offensive options like the Rockets.



I think Westbrook can put up similar numbers. 25 and 7 would probably not be beneficial to his team, with his style of play. But if he went somewhere and got to play SG then that would benefit him.


The argument for trading Westbrook should be that his value was higher.

[KG215]

I think Westbrook can put up similar numbers. 25 and 7 would probably not be beneficial to his team, with his style of play. But if he went somewhere and got to play SG then that would benefit him.


The argument for trading Westbrook should be that his value was higher.
Yeah, it would ultimately depend on the team Westbrook went to.

[KG215]

Just crazy over-reactions.

This pretty much sums it all up. Harden played great last night, but the other two times Houston played OKC and lost by 20+? Not so much. He's an excellent player but if OKC doesn't choke way a 13 point lead in the last 5+ minutes last night, this thread never gets made, even though Harden would've still finished with 35ish-8-6. That's how fine the line is between things like this on ISH.

But lose a 3rd straight game (heaven forbid a team have a mid-season lull) where a former player goes of in beating his old team...and you get a 10+ page thread about this being the worst trade ever.

[chazzy]

Obviously? How do we not now Westbrook wouldn't be putting up something like 25-7-5-2 in the same role as Harden? I mean he's averaging 22-8-5-2 as a second banana. This is what bugs me, when people say OKC made a mistake keeping Harden instead of Westbrook. Westbrook is still a really, really good player, and you have no idea how he might perform in Harden's role. Especially on a run-n-gun team with no other consistently legit offensive options like the Rockets.
Well, he's around 42 FG% and 52 TS% as a second option.. that's going down with increased defensive pressure and more attempts. He would be great of course, but I think he's less in control than Harden and their team offense wouldn't be as potent.

[TMac&Luther]

Westbrook is a better athlete and just causes more havoc on the court on both ends.

I like Westbrook's defense much better.

Can we please stop acting like Harden is God. Needs to stop. This is the same guy that essentially no showed the biggest series of his life last year. The idea that Harden is noticeably better than Westbrook as a player is absurd to begin with...and even more absurd to extend that to the Thunder being a noticeably better team with him over Westbrook.

:rolleyes:

extremely lazy criticism that's used way too often and it needs to stop. Who gives a flying crap if Harden had a bad series? People act like Harden is the only player on earth who had a bad showing in a series. Kobe has had them, Lebron has had them, Dirk your boy kicked bikes over them... and OKC wouldn't of even had a chance to COMPETE FOR A CHIP if Harden didn't go beast mode in the previous series' :facepalm

P.S.

Harden is a way better player than Westbrook and a more complete player. Westbrook isn't the better fit for OKC, if they would've kept Harden and moved Westbrook, OKC would be better right now, because Harden can simply do more and isn't selfish enough where he has to dominate the ball to be effective. If your only argument for Westbrook being a better player is that he's "more athletic" it's a stupid argument. And no, Westbrook doesn't cause more havoc either. Harden gets to the line at will and at a much higher rate than Westbrook does... that alone causes more havoc for the other team than anything Westbrook can do (nice dunk BTW).

A Harden, Durant back court would've been a championship caliber back court the same way Lebron and Wade are. The Thunder didn't make a mistake by recognizing they had to move one of their guards/wings.. they made a mistake when they chose the wrong one to move. Name the last time a ball dominant PG would a championship? It almost never happens now.

[DMAVS41]

:rolleyes:

extremely lazy criticism that's used way too often and it needs to stop. Who gives a flying crap if Harden had a bad series? People act like Harden is the only player on earth who had a bad showing in a series. Kobe has had them, Lebron has had them, Dirk your boy kicked bikes over them... and OKC wouldn't of even had a chance to COMPETE FOR A CHIP if Harden didn't go beast mode in the previous series' :facepalm

P.S.

Harden is a way better player than Westbrook and a more complete player. Westbrook isn't the better fit for OKC, if they would've kept Harden and moved Westbrook, OKC would be better right now, because Harden can simply do more and isn't selfish enough where he has to dominate the ball to be effective. If your only argument for Westbrook being a better player is that he's "more athletic" it's a stupid argument. And no, Westbrook doesn't cause more havoc either. Harden gets to the line at will and at a much higher rate than Westbrook does... that alone causes more havoc for the other team than anything Westbrook can do (nice dunk BTW).

A Harden, Durant back court would've been a championship caliber back court the same way Lebron and Wade are. The Thunder didn't make a mistake by recognizing they had to move one of their guards/wings.. they made a mistake when they chose the wrong one to move. Name the last time a ball dominant PG would a championship? It almost never happens now.


Of course players play bad series. Not a big deal at all, but it needs to be mentioned when people like you say the following:

"Harden is a way better player than Westbrook"

That is the exact reason I brought it up. I don't think by any reasonable or objective standards one could make that statement.

That is the point. I love Harden. Think he's already great and will continue to get better. But Westbrook is a lot better than he's getting credit for here. A lot better.

[TMac&Luther]

Correct.

But understand that nobody would be saying this if the Thunder hadn't lost 3 in a row and Harden didn't go for 46 last night.

Just crazy over-reactions.

The notion that there is a clear cut best player in the Harden vs Westbrook comparisons is silly.


Wrong.. People were saying this as soon as the trade happened. Talking heads on TV were even talking about it, so that makes your post a overreaction

And the notion that Harden is clearly > than Westbrook isn't a silly notion, just a correct one. Westbrook is the better athlete, Harden is a better basketball player. They get paid to play basketball, therefore I'll take the better basketball player.

[DMAVS41]

Wrong.. People were saying this as soon as the trade happened. Talking heads on TV were even talking about it, so that makes your post a overreaction

And the notion that Harden is clearly > than Westbrook isn't a silly notion, just a correct one. Westbrook is the better athlete, Harden is a better basketball player. They get paid to play basketball, therefore I'll take the better basketball player.

I give up if the basketball world thinks that Harden is clearly better than Westbrook.

Does anyone pay attention to the style of play in Houston? Mind boggling to me that fans that take the time to post on a message board don't see how that impacts production.

[TMac&Luther]

Of course players play bad series. Not a big deal at all, but it needs to be mentioned when people like you say the following:

"Harden is a way better player than Westbrook"

That is the exact reason I brought it up. I don't think by any reasonable or objective standards one could make that statement.

That is the point. I love Harden. Think he's already great and will continue to get better. But Westbrook is a lot better than he's getting credit for here. A lot better.

You didn't bring that up because someone said Harden is better than Westbrook.. your would've brought it up if anything said anything positive about Harden.. it had NOTHING to do with Westbrook (who also had crappy showings in the playoffs BTW) It's what haters do.. they're lazy and cling on to a bad performance while ignoring the great ones. You know like the type of performances that put his team in the finals in the first place.

Regardless though. Harden is still better than Westbrook regardless of his performance in the finals.

[DMAVS41]

You didn't bring that up because someone said Harden is better than Westbrook.. your would've brought it up if anything said anything positive about Harden.. it had NOTHING to do with Westbrook (who also had crappy showings in the playoffs BTW) It's what haters do.. they're lazy and cling on to a bad performance while ignoring the great ones. You know like the type of performances that put his team in the finals in the first place.

Regardless though. Harden is still better than Westbrook regardless of his performance in the finals.

I brought it up to remind people that Harden played 3 stinkers in the finals. To remind people like you that say he's "clearly" better than another elite player to slow down a bit...

We are watching him play great in the regular season on the fastest pace team in the league...a team that doesn't even care about defense. It's just different.

And its not negative about Harden. I'd be saying the same thing about Westbrook if people were saying Westbrook is "clearly" better...

But that wasn't even the point of this debate...it was about the Thunder trading Harden. They basically had to for all the reasons we discussed...or at least they had to trade Westbrook or Harden. I personally would have kept Westbrook because I like his game for the Thunder more. But I even said I could see the argument for keeping Harden and getting more from a trade of Westbrook.

I'll ask you this. Rank the 15 best players in the league right now...so I can get an idea of how much better Harden is than Westbrook.

[TMac&Luther]

I give up if the basketball world thinks that Harden is clearly better than Westbrook.

Does anyone pay attention to the style of play in Houston? Mind boggling to me that fans that take the time to post on a message board don't see how that impacts production.

Actually I did pay attention to it. I already looked it up earlier after reading another irrelevant argument you made. Houston only gets up 4 more shots than OKC a game. whoopty doo. And while you keep harping about "style of play" you ignore that Harden was already a better ovrl and more efficient player than Westbrook in the SAME EXACT STYLE OF PLAY that Westbrook plays in now. So what's your point?

The entire basketball world has that opinion for a reason.. It's not like your the smartest man in the room filled with morons here. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Actually I did pay attention to it. I already looked it up earlier after reading another irrelevant argument you made. Houston only gets up 4 more shots than OKC a game. whoopty doo. And while you keep harping about "style of play" you ignore that Harden was already a better ovrl and more efficient player than Westbrook in the SAME EXACT STYLE OF PLAY that Westbrook plays in now. So what's your point?

The entire basketball world has that opinion for a reason.. It's not like your the smartest man in the room filled with morons here. :oldlol:

So it was clear that Harden was better last year? So Brooks just played Westbrook 7 or 8 more minutes a game in the playoffs to hurt his own team? Presti decided to trade Harden and not Westbrook...even though Harden was better and Westbrook's trade value was higher?

Seems to me that this year and what Harden has done in Houston is what changed the basketball worlds mind buddy....

[Legends66NBA7]

They traded Harden because they could not keep in business sense and had to also sign Ibaka. There's no way they can tie up all that money to 3 perimeter players long-term and not have a defensive anchor. It's far from the worst trade in NBA history.

Getting Martin to replace him was a good move, just for the role he can play and at a lesser cost, not to mention the picks. Harden is getting his opportunity and can be ranked as a Top 10-15 player and wouldn't if he was on the Thunder.

And Harden isn't "clearly" better than Westbrook. You can see he's better if you want, but far from "clearly".

[TMac&Luther]

I brought it up to remind people that Harden played 3 stinkers in the finals. To remind people like you that say he's "clearly" better than another elite player to slow down a bit...

We are watching him play great in the regular season on the fastest pace team in the league...a team that doesn't even care about defense. It's just different.

And its not negative about Harden. I'd be saying the same thing about Westbrook if people were saying Westbrook is "clearly" better...

But that wasn't even the point of this debate...it was about the Thunder trading Harden. They basically had to for all the reasons we discussed...or at least they had to trade Westbrook or Harden. I personally would have kept Westbrook because I like his game for the Thunder more. But I even said I could see the argument for keeping Harden and getting more from a trade of Westbrook.

I'll ask you this. Rank the 15 best players in the league right now...so I can get an idea of how much better Harden is than Westbrook.

:facepalm Harden's final performance doesn't have crap to do with a discussion of who's a better basketball player. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Lebron is the best player in the world and he's played like hammered dog crap in the finals before.

And no, I'm not going to waste my time compiling a top 15 list for someone who's opinion I probably won't even change. I'll simply say I think Harden is clearly a better overl player. Why do you think he does more despite not being the elite athlete that Westbrook is, why do you think he leads the league in FT attempts despite being a elite athlete? He has more clubs in his bag, has a higher basketball IQ, and has elite footwork that allows him to get to the rim/line at will. He's simply a more complete player... Westbrook can jump out of a gym though.

[imdaman99]

westbrook plays defense, harden doesnt. remind me who harden was covering last night? oh yeah thats right, it was no one. as sefolosha was open all game and dropped his own career high. high praise. harden is a very good player, but he would never become what he is now, on okc. westbrook will be getting close or winning championships, while harden is partying in houston. but thats what he wanted after all, so good for him :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm Harden's final performance doesn't have crap to do with a discussion of who's a better basketball player. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Lebron is the best player in the world and he's played like hammered dog crap in the finals before.

And no, I'm not going to waste my time compiling a top 15 list for someone who's opinion I probably won't even change. I'll simply say I think Harden is clearly a better overl player. Why do you think he does more despite not being the elite athlete that Westbrook is, why do you think he leads the league in FT attempts despite being a elite athlete? He has more clubs in his bag, has a higher basketball IQ, and has elite footwork that allows him to get to the rim/line at will. He's simply a more complete player... Westbrook can jump out of a gym though.

How a player performs when the games matter most is absolutely relevant to the discussion of which player is better. I could just as quickly turn around and say who cares about the regular season so far this year or something like that.

You are arguing with a ghost. I have said one thing about the comparison. That it is wrong to say that either of them are "clearly" better than the other given the evidence.

And I still want to hear how the entire basketball world thought Harden was better last year...and if he was better last year...don't you think he would have played better in the finals? I mean...a player that is clearly better than another usually doesn't play that much worse...or am I missing something?

[stevieming]

Harden is better than Westbrook, but didn't fit with Durant and Westbrook. They wouldn't have won like that.

They chose to keep Westbrook over Harden.

Houston got a great deal.

If I was OKC I would've signed Harden and gotten rid of Westbrook.

Totally agree, with such a great scorer in Durant and an excellent scorer creator in Harden. They could go and get a mid tier PG and ran with KD, Harden, Ibaka, I think that team would be better than Westbrook, KD and Ibaka.

[KG215]

Actually I did pay attention to it. I already looked it up earlier after reading another irrelevant argument you made. Houston only gets up 4 more shots than OKC a game. whoopty doo. And while you keep harping about "style of play" you ignore that Harden was already a better ovrl and more efficient player than Westbrook in the SAME EXACT STYLE OF PLAY that Westbrook plays in now. So what's your point?

Except, you know, hardly anyone thought Harden was better than Westbrook last year. Westbrook was the much more consistent player. It's certainly debatable now, but it wasn't as much of a debate last year.

[TMac&Luther]

How a player performs when the games matter most is absolutely relevant to the discussion of which player is better. I could just as quickly turn around and say who cares about the regular season so far this year or something like that.

You are arguing with a ghost. I have said one thing about the comparison. That it is wrong to say that either of them are "clearly" better than the other given the evidence.

And I still want to hear how the entire basketball world thought Harden was better last year...and if he was better last year...don't you think he would have played better in the finals? I mean...a player that is clearly better than another usually doesn't play that much worse...or am I missing something?

Another crap argument. Playoff basketball is playoff basketball. OKC wouldn't of even sniffed the finals if Harden didn't play great in the playoffs so your argument is stupid. Harden afforded himself the opportunity to have a poor series, because it was his play that got them there in the first place.

[DMAVS41]

Another crap argument. Playoff basketball is playoff basketball. OKC wouldn't of even sniffed the finals if Harden didn't play great in the playoffs so your argument is stupid. Harden afforded himself the opportunity to have a poor series, because it was his play that got them there in the first place.

And they wouldn't have sniffed the finals without Westbrook either. So let's get this straight...

You claim Harden is "clearly" better. You want to ignore the finals last year. You don't care about what type of team they play for. You don't care about what role they play for their teams. You don't care at all about defense.

You claim everyone thought Harden was better last year.

Did I get that right?

[KG215]

Another crap argument. Playoff basketball is playoff basketball. OKC wouldn't of even sniffed the finals if Harden didn't play great in the playoffs so your argument is stupid. Harden afforded himself the opportunity to have a poor series, because it was his play that got them there in the first place.
So we're just supposed to ignore how horribly Harden played in the Finals because of how well he played in the other series?

In the Finals...

Westbrook: 27.0 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 6.6 APG, 1.0 SPG
Harden: 12.4 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.2 SPG

Playoffs...

Westbrook: 23.1 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 5.9 APG, 1.6 SPG
Harden: 16.3 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.6 SPG

Even if you wanted to argue their production was almost a wash in the entire playoffs because of the difference in minutes played, it still doesn't make-up or the enormous gap in production between the two in the Finals.

[Funnyfuka]

it s westbrook that should have been gone, not harden...stupid choice.

[TMac&Luther]

westbrook plays defense, harden doesnt. remind me who harden was covering last night? oh yeah thats right, it was no one. as sefolosha was open all game and dropped his own career high. high praise. harden is a very good player, but he would never become what he is now, on okc. westbrook will be getting close or winning championships, while harden is partying in houston. but thats what he wanted after all, so good for him :cheers:

Being a better defender doesn't make Westbrook a better player, because Harden is still better in more aspects than Westbrook.

Harden is a better offensive player, is more efficient, gets to the line more, takes better shots, and is not the chucker ball dominant player that Westbrook is.

Harden and Durant would've been able to grow together and would've been great and OKC with Westbrook will never win a ring. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that you can win with that type of PG (one that has to carry such a big scoring load and dominates the ball in order to be effective). I said name me the last time a team has won a title with a PG like that. You pretty much have to go all the way back to Isiah. Look at the teams who have won since then and look at their PGs.. Hell even when the Celtics won, Rondo wasn't Rondo or mentioned with the big three.

The PG position often gets refereed to as the QB of a team, but he's more like the center. He needs to be able to get everyone lined up correctly, needs to know where the defense is going to attack from, but if he's doing his job right, you shouldn't notice him as much. OKC would've been better off keeping Harden and trading Westbrook for pieces and a high quality smart experienced PG who could set up plays for both Harden and Durant and hit the open shots those players would create him. Every bad shot Westbrook takes is a good shot he takes away from players like Durant.

[imdaman99]

Another crap argument. Playoff basketball is playoff basketball. OKC wouldn't of even sniffed the finals if Harden didn't play great in the playoffs so your argument is stupid. Harden afforded himself the opportunity to have a poor series, because it was his play that got them there in the first place.
ISH, where disappearing on the biggest of stages is excusable as long as you helped get them there

[Doranku]

At least if the Lakers end up missing the playoffs, I can take some solace in watching Harden get exposed in the playoffs.

[Doranku]

Another crap argument. Playoff basketball is playoff basketball. OKC wouldn't of even sniffed the finals if Harden didn't play great in the playoffs so your argument is stupid. Harden afforded himself the opportunity to have a poor series, because it was his play that got them there in the first place.
:durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed: :durantunimpressed:

[TMac&Luther]

So we're just supposed to ignore how horribly Harden played in the Finals because of how well he played in the other series?

In the Finals...

Westbrook: 27.0 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 6.6 APG, 1.0 SPG
Harden: 12.4 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.2 SPG

Playoffs...

Westbrook: 23.1 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 5.9 APG, 1.6 SPG
Harden: 16.3 PPG, 5.1 RPG, 3.4 APG, 1.6 SPG

Even if you wanted to argue their production was almost a wash in the entire playoffs because of the difference in minutes played, it still doesn't make-up or the enormous gap in production between the two in the Finals.

:biggums:

Did I ever ask you to ignore it? You don't have to ignore it, everybody here saw it and knows it happened, but you don't have to act like that has pigeonholed Harden's entire career. That is a dumbass and lazy opinion, because like I already said... there's PLENTY of other players who played poorly in a series before.. players that now are champions. But continue to stew over one playoff performance. :rolleyes:

[Droid101]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8573213/the-harden-disaster

[TMac&Luther]

At least if the Lakers end up missing the playoffs, I can take some solace in watching Harden get exposed in the playoffs.

At least if the Harden ends up "getting exposed" I can take solace in knowing that my team is the youngest team in the league, had no business making the playoffs, (unlike a team with 4 potential future HOFers) has top SG in the West, has plenty of cap space to get another max player, and by their play kept the lakers and you sitting on y'all's collective asses watching my team in the playoffs.

[Doranku]

At least if the Rockets end up "getting exposed" I can take solace in knowing that my team is the youngest team in the league, had no business making the playoffs, (unlike a team with 4 potential future HOFers) has top SG in the West, has plenty of cap space to get another max player, and by their play kept the lakers and you sitting on y'all's collective asses watching my team in the playoffs.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Also, if you could read, I said Harden would get exposed. I never mentioned any of the other garbage players on your team.

[Smoke117]

Harden would have never gotten the chances he got on the Thunder that he gets on the Rockets. Besides that, Harden is overrated. I can't believe people actually think he's better than Dwade. Harden is massively overrated as a scorer. He's one of those player that just lives at the ft line and his defense is subpar. The one thing I actually do like about him is he's a great play maker for a sg, but so is Dwade and he's a much, much better defensive player and scorer in general.

[KG215]

:biggums:

Did I ever ask you to ignore it? You don't have to ignore it, everybody here saw it and knows it happened, but you don't have to act like that has pigeonholed Harden's entire career. That is a dumbass and lazy opinion, because like I already said... there's PLENTY of other players who played poorly in a series before.. players that now are champions. But continue to stew over one playoff performance. :rolleyes:
I didn't say you did. And I'm not using it to "pigeonhole" Harden's career. We're discussing whether or not Harden is "clearly" better than Westbrook. You said, because of how well Harden played in the other three playoff series, It basically doesn't matter what he did in the Final. And I agree to an extent. However, Westbrook out played Harden in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounds, and CLEARLY outplayed Harden in the Finals.

No one in their right mind was saying 'Harden is clearly better than Westbrook last year" and, to be honest, there's not tangible evidence to Harden being "clearly" better than Westbrook this year. Westbrook, the last two years, was clearly OKC's second best player and, for long stretches last year, he was closer to being as good as Durant as he was to being as good as Harden. I mean there were times last year you could make a very strong argument that Westbrook was 1b to Durant's 1a. Just because Harden has gone to an offensive friendly system where he's the clear cut #1 option, does not mean he's all of a sudden "clearly" better than Westbrook.

[TMac&Luther]

Also, if you could read, I said Harden would get exposed. I never mentioned any of the other garbage players on your team.

:cheers: Yep, I didn't stutter. Harden is the best SG in the west. You know, he's actually leading his team to the playoffs, despite all the "garbage players."

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[steve franchise]

I didn't say you did. And I'm not using it to "pigeonhole" Harden's career. We're discussing whether or not Harden is "clearly" better than Westbrook. You said, because of how well Harden played in the other three playoff series, It basically doesn't matter what he did in the Final. And I agree to an extent. However, Westbrook out played Harden in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounds, and CLEARLY outplayed Harden in the Finals.

No one in their right mind was saying 'Harden is clearly better than Westbrook last year" and, to be honest, there's not tangible evidence to Harden being "clearly" better than Westbrook this year. Westbrook, the last two years, was clearly OKC's second best player and, for long stretches last year, he was closer to being as good as Durant as he was to being as good as Harden. I mean there were times last year you could make a very strong argument that Westbrook was 1b to Durant's 1a. Just because Harden has gone to an offensive friendly system where he's the clear cut #1 option, does not mean he's all of a sudden "clearly" better than Westbrook.

This is correct. Westbrook came off the bench and still outperformed Harden, the starter. Not to mention Harden has been in the league a bit longer.

[Doranku]

:cheers: Yep, I didn't stutter. Harden is the best SG in the west. You know, he's actually leading his team to the playoffs, despite all the "garbage players."

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I guess Tony Parker is a better PG than Westbrook and CP3 then. :rolleyes:

[TMac&Luther]

Harden would have never gotten the chances he got on the Thunder that he gets on the Rockets. Besides that, Harden is overrated. I can't believe people actually think he's better than Dwade. Harden is massively overrated as a scorer. He's one of those player that just lives at the ft line and his defense is subpar. The one thing I actually do like about him is he's a great play maker for a sg, but so is Dwade and he's a much, much better defensive player and scorer in general.

Since when is getting to the line a knock on a players game? Your boy won a title by doing that. Hence the nickname Dwhistle. Ask the Mav fan posting in this thread, I'm sure he remembers.

Harden is only 23, his game is going to evolve as he does.. you can call him overrated all you want, but for a 23 year old, his game is already light years ahead of other players and he's only going to get better. He's already arguably the best SG in the league and whether people might have a different opinion, the other two guys aren't getting younger so eventually it won't even be a argument.

[TMac&Luther]

I guess Tony Parker is a better PG than Westbrook and CP3 then. :rolleyes:


He's the perfect type of PG I'd want on a championship caliber team... so if we're talking chips, then yes.

[Connor B]

Lets not overreact. Harden + refs cost OKC the title after all.

This. I am so ****ing sick of people going on and on about Harden. Yes, he's an all-star, but his play in the finals was extremely detrimental to them. Replace a solid K-Mart performance in that series and who knows...just saying, people need to stfu about James Harden.

[Smoke117]

Since when is getting to the line a knock on a players game? Your boy won a title by doing that. Hence the nickname Dwhistle. Ask the Mav fan posting in this thread, I'm sure he remembers.

Harden is only 23, his game is going to evolve as he does.. you can call him overrated all you want, but for a 23 year old, his game is already light years ahead of other players and he's only going to get better. He's already arguably the best SG in the league and whether people might have a different opinion, the other two guys aren't getting younger so eventually it won't even be a argument.


:oldlol: Sure he is.

[Lakers Legend#32]

The Harden trade was another example of the Curse Of The Sonics, which will keep OKC from ever winning any thing that matters.

[steve franchise]

:oldlol: Sure he is.

He is.

[Jacks3]

Dude is gonna be a top 3-5 player in the league for the next decade.

Presti is a dumbass.

[Whoah10115]

:oldlol: Sure he is.


He's #3, but he's quite arguably (and at this point probably) been the best SG in the league this season. He's been better than Wade for the year. I'll still take Wade for right now tho.


But bagging on him for getting to the line makes no sense. I was a huge Wade fan, but I know he got to the line a lot. I think the whole D-Whistle thing is, for the most part, BS. Wade was a guy who got hit and earned the FT's. But so does Harden. Your argument against Harden, on that basis, isn't an argument. If there's more to it, post it.


His defense is subpar. He knows where to be but he closes out too late and he can get blown buy if he's left out too deep or in the open. He'll get better.

[Midnight Toker]

I consider this to be a good trade because if they let him walk in off season, they get nothing. They were a 1st team in their division last year, they are a first place this year. They had the best record in the nba for a good part of this season, and are still in the driver's seat for the playoffs this year. So, what exactly has been the fall off here? Harden wanted a max type deal, and you cant have 3 max guys on one roster. He wanted 16 mil, OKC offered 13.5 per year, he turned that down. Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka all took paycuts as an agreement they made that the rings were worth the paycut. Then Harden decided he needed that few extra million, you know, to feed his family, and wanted to be a #1 guy. Okc wasnt going to make him a # 1 guy. meanwhile here's a houston team willing to spend max dollars, 5 years, and make him the face of the franchise. He didnt turn down small market okc, he just wanted to be a max paid #1 option, not a stud 6th man only making 13.5 million (scrub money).

[arifgokcen]

I consider this to be a good trade because if they let him walk in off season, they get nothing. They were a 1st team in their division last year, they are a first place this year. They had the best record in the nba for a good part of this season, and are still in the driver's seat for the playoffs this year. So, what exactly has been the fall off here? Harden wanted a max type deal, and you cant have 3 max guys on one roster. He wanted 16 mil, OKC offered 13.5 per year, he turned that down. Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka all took paycuts as an agreement they made that the rings were worth the paycut. Then Harden decided he needed that few extra million, you know, to feed his family, and wanted to be a #1 guy. Okc wasnt going to make him a # 1 guy. meanwhile here's a houston team willing to spend max dollars, 5 years, and make him the face of the franchise. He didnt turn down small market okc, he just wanted to be a max paid #1 option, not a stud 6th man only making 13.5 million (scrub money).

Durant didnt take a paycut he took the max you know even though lebron is 4 years older durant is making more money!!

[JerryWest]

we'll see... wait till next year

[disel]

Harden would have never gotten the chances he got on the Thunder that he gets on the Rockets. Besides that, Harden is overrated. I can't believe people actually think he's better than Dwade. Harden is massively overrated as a scorer. He's one of those player that just lives at the ft line and his defense is subpar. The one thing I actually do like about him is he's a great play maker for a sg, but so is Dwade and he's a much, much better defensive player and scorer in general.

Fukin spastic. You rag on Harden for living on the line but rave on about Wade. Thats pretty much how Wade made his living you handicapped moron.

[Shepseskaf]

Harden is being ridiculously overrated by some people. Just look at the Rockets' roster and tell me who else can provide consistent scoring. The entire offense goes through Harden, on practically every trip up the floor.

Give any above average scorer that green light, and the results would be similar.

Harden hasn't been particularly efficient (.454) and turns the ball over nearly 4x per game.

He has been spectacular on occasion, but pump the brakes on all the praise until we can see how he performs under the pressure of the playoffs as the #1 option. Last time he was on the biggest stage, the results weren't good. DWade produced, Harden didn't.

[Jacks3]

Not efficient? Dude has a 61% TS. That's +8% relative to league average. Hes the most efficient scorer in the league after Durant/LBJ.

Dudes still using FG%. :facepalm

[Fatstogey]

Lets not overreact. Harden + refs cost OKC the title after all.
LOL Lebron cost OKC the title.

[Shepseskaf]

Not efficient? Dude has a 61% TS. That's +8% relative to league average. Hes the most efficient scorer in the league after Durant/LBJ.
Not true. Try again.


Dudes still using FG%. :facepalm
TS% is BS. Combining FG% with FT% makes no sense at all, because one is generated under duress and the other is a completely uncontested shot.

Just another example of over-statification and similar garbage that doesn't provide a true picture of a player's performance.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

TS% is BS. Combining FG% with FT% makes no sense at all, because one is generated under duress and the other is a completely uncontested shot.

Just another example of over-statification and similar garbage that doesn't provide a true picture of a player's performance.

:applause:

[Smoke117]

He's #3, but he's quite arguably (and at this point probably) been the best SG in the league this season. He's been better than Wade for the year. I'll still take Wade for right now tho.


But bagging on him for getting to the line makes no sense. I was a huge Wade fan, but I know he got to the line a lot. I think the whole D-Whistle thing is, for the most part, BS. Wade was a guy who got hit and earned the FT's. But so does Harden. Your argument against Harden, on that basis, isn't an argument. If there's more to it, post it.


His defense is subpar. He knows where to be but he closes out too late and he can get blown buy if he's left out too deep or in the open. He'll get better.

There is a big difference between Wade getting to the ft line and Harden. Everyone talks about Durant getting all kinds of bullshit calls, but Harden gets just as many. In 2009 Wade was averaging 9.8fta's on 22 shot attempts. Harden is averaging 10.1 on 17.4 shots attempts. Even those two seasons Wade averaged over 10fta's he was taking more shots and let's face it...James Harden isn't close to the penetrator Dwyane Wade was/is.

[Haymaker]

Not true. Try again.


TS% is BS. Combining FG% with FT% makes no sense at all, because one is generated under duress and the other is a completely uncontested shot.

Just another example of over-statification and similar garbage that doesn't provide a true picture of a player's performance.

Truth! Repped

[ZenMaster]

Not true. Try again.


TS% is BS. Combining FG% with FT% makes no sense at all, because one is generated under duress and the other is a completely uncontested shot.

Just another example of over-statification and similar garbage that doesn't provide a true picture of a player's performance.

It makes sense when you want the overall scoring capabilities of a player because 2pt shot, 3pt shot and FT's are the only way to score points.

The people who disregard TS% as a valuable stat are the same ones that think FT's are a random chance event, which is far from the truth.

[Whoah10115]

There is a big difference between Wade getting to the ft line and Harden. Everyone talks about Durant getting all kinds of bullshit calls, but Harden gets just as many. In 2009 Wade was averaging 9.8fta's on 22 shot attempts. Harden is averaging 10.1 on 17.4 shots attempts. Even those two seasons Wade averaged over 10fta's he was taking more shots and let's face it...James Harden isn't close to the penetrator Dwyane Wade was/is.



But he draws contact just as much as Wade did. Wade would throw his body around, but Harden stays on the ground when he gets hit. He uses the old man game.


Also, while Harden is a better shooter than Wade, he has no midrange game to speak of. He either has the straight jumper or the drive. Wade, despite what the LeBron years tell people, was a very good midrange shooter his whole career. And Wade spent a lot of time in the midrange. Plus, he was better in transition and often got to the rim too quick to get fouled.

[Whoah10115]

Harden is being ridiculously overrated by some people. Just look at the Rockets' roster and tell me who else can provide consistent scoring. The entire offense goes through Harden, on practically every trip up the floor.



That's why your argument is poor. Harden is the guy and defenses key in on him. Yet, he's still putting up the numbers, while facilitating and enabling his team to as good a they are on the offensive end.


And he's not shot-jacking to do this. Like Smoke said, when Wade had similar FT numbers, he was putting up 5 more shots a game. Despite being the supposed only guy on his team (a point you're exaggerating) he's putting up crazy numbers and doing so without taking a crazy amount of shots. Not to mention the fouls are getting the other team in trouble...and they're not bailout calls.


Plus, his team is above ..500 and currently in the playoffs. There's nothing at all overrated about that.

[Shepseskaf]

It makes sense when you want the overall scoring capabilities of a player because 2pt shot, 3pt shot and FT's are the only way to score points.

The people who disregard TS% as a valuable stat are the same ones that think FT's are a random chance event, which is far from the truth.
Its mixing apples and oranges. Contested shots and uncontested shots are different, require different skillsets, and should be measured separately.

[Qwyjibo]

Its mixing apples and oranges. Contested shots and uncontested shots are different, require different skillsets, and should be measured separately.
Sure. But if you are simply measuring their scoring efficiency then FTs are a big part of that. The ability to get to the line and make a high % is important.

We're talking about results (efficiency and volume). Not skill-set.

[Shepseskaf]

That's why your argument is poor. Harden is the guy and defenses key in on him. Yet, he's still putting up the numbers, while facilitating and enabling his team to as good a they are on the offensive end.
Presenting poor arguments is typically something that you do. This case is no exception.

Harden is a skilled offensive player. Even if defenses are keying on him, to some degree, he has the ability to score -- given the fact that he has the green light every night, as I've already stated.

He has definitely 'shot jacked' on occasion. Just look at his cumulative game log. Its dumb to say that he doesn't do that.

The proof of Harden's worth will come in the playoffs. That's when defenses really get serious, and he'll start seeing consistent double teams and receive much more focus.

[Mr Exlax]

But he draws contact just as much as Wade did. Wade would throw his body around, but Harden stays on the ground when he gets hit. He uses the old man game.

No flailing arms and throwing the ball all crazy. He's still scoring after the contact. That's not flopping to me. He's really getting fouled. They doesn't seem like BS calls to me.

[Shepseskaf]

Sure. But if you are simply measuring their scoring efficiency then FTs are a big part of that. The ability to get to the line and make a high % is important.

We're talking about results (efficiency and volume). Not skill-set.
I don't disagree. However, TS% does not present as accurate a portrayal of a player's on-court performance as FG%.

Look at prime Shaq. He destroyed teams, but was a horrible FT shooter. Yes, that should be reflected in a stat, but I consider his inside dominance and FG% to be a more important measure.

Harden isn't shooting a good % from the field, but because he's the league's best flopper he gets to the line more than anyone else. That boosts his TS%, but its a suspect measure.

[Mr Exlax]

I don't disagree. However, TS% does not present as accurate a portrayal of a player's on-court performance as FG%.

Look at prime Shaq. He destroyed teams, but was a horrible FT shooter. Yes, that should be reflected in a stat, but I consider his inside dominance and FG% to be a more important measure.

Harden isn't shooting a good % from the field, but because he's the league's best flopper he gets to the line more than anyone else. That boosts his TS%, but its a suspect measure.

Have you watched him play this season? He's still flopping this season or is he getting hit when he's driving and still finishing? That's flopping? I don't see flailing arms and hollering and looking at the refs. I see driving to the basket and getting hit and finishing. I am biased of couse.

[Shepseskaf]

Have you watched him play this season? He's still flopping this season or is he getting hit when he's driving and still finishing? That's flopping? I don't see flailing arms and hollering and looking at the refs. I see driving to the basket and getting hit and finishing. I am biased of couse.
I think that Harden gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs for getting into the lane and throwing his body into people. Flopping can be done in more than one way.

Its going to be interesting to see if he continues to get those calls in the playoffs.

[Mr Exlax]

I think that Harden gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs for getting into the lane and throwing his body into people. Flopping can be done in more than one way.

Its going to be interesting to see if he continues to get those calls in the playoffs.

He doesn't really even throw his body into people though. He holds the ball out and they go for it. It's funny to see. There are times though that he causes the contact and the defender is off balance once he plows into them, but the main thing is that he's still finishing. It's not bail outs. It's And 1's.

[Shepseskaf]

He doesn't really even throw his body into people though. He holds the ball out and they go for it. It's funny to see. There are times though that he causes the contact and the defender is off balance once he plows into them, but the main thing is that he's still finishing. It's not bail outs. It's And 1's.
I hear you. I see it a bit differently, but we can agree to disagree.

As I said before, the test will be in the playoffs as to whether he can continue to get more FTs than anyone else.

[bmd]

I hear you. I see it a bit differently, but we can agree to disagree.

As I said before, the test will be in the playoffs as to whether he can continue to get more FTs than anyone else.You just playa hatin'.

[Mr Exlax]

I hear you. I see it a bit differently, but we can agree to disagree.

As I said before, the test will be in the playoffs as to whether he can continue to get more FTs than anyone else.

I feel ya. I'll say he will only because of the pace that we play at.

[Xsatyr]

I think that Harden gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs for getting into the lane and throwing his body into people. Flopping can be done in more than one way.

Its going to be interesting to see if he continues to get those calls in the playoffs.

You have to watch his game. Harden attacks the basket with his arms extended in front of him to bait defenders to reach in. Defenders reach in for the ball and he extends his arms farther causing them to grab his arm and not the ball. He rarely flops and flails his arms attacking the basket. For the most part he is legitimately getting fouled.

[Fatstogey]

you think harden gets free reign to be the player he is for houston right now, on the thunder? :oldlol:

not a chance. he would still be a very good player, but 46 pts? not happening if he was on okc
yup okc was a waste of his talent.

They were looking for about 12-20 ponits a game. And as hes showing now thats way beneath him.

Okc made a great trade and got a guy to fill exactly teh roll that harden was over filling. Okc couldnt have afforded to resign him anyway. They mad ea great move that wa good for the future of the organization and good for James Hardens career. And Basketball in general for that matter.

[NumberSix]

Harden is legit.

Hey, OKC fans. Keep telling me how you're just as happy with Martin. LOL

[ZenMaster]

Its mixing apples and oranges. Contested shots and uncontested shots are different, require different skillsets, and should be measured separately.

It's adding up what's in the fruit bowl all together.

[bmd]

Harden is legit.

Hey, OKC fans. Keep telling me how you're just as happy with Martin. LOLI don't think it is as big of a deal for OKC as people are making it out to be.

A team only has a limited number of shots that they take per game. So when you have Durant, Westbrook, and Harden, somebody's scoring is going to take a bit of a hit. Most likely Harden.

So even if they had Harden, they wouldn't be getting the most out of him. And Martin can shoot, and really that's all he needs to do. Make the 3 when he gets the ball kicked out to him from Durant or Westbrook after they penetrate.

The only time it may hurt is if both Durant and Westbrook are having off nights, and Harden would be there also with the ability to take over a game. It would be a third guy that defenses have to worry about.

But overall, I don't think it's a big deal for OKC.

[KungFuJoe]

The one thing harden has to watch out for is his stiff arming is way through the lane.

He is VERY obvious with that sometimes...if the refs start catching him on it.

He uses his arms a LOT to create room.

[rknine15]

Not efficient? Dude has a 61% TS. That's +8% relative to league average. Hes the most efficient scorer in the league after Durant/LBJ.

Dudes still using FG%. :facepalm
:oldlol:

[Eric Cartman]

Harden is legit.

Hey, OKC fans. Keep telling me how you're just as happy with Martin. LOL

:lol not even there anymore

[tomtucker]

.

OKC had to choose.....keep harden or perkins......

.


.
http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/bill-cosby-breaks-silence-on-rape-accusations__oPt.jpg

[SpaceJammeR]

he will choke in playoffs.

[SillyRabbit]

I am an OKC fan.

I openly stated that the Harden trade was horrible at the time.

It's even more horrible now.

Any of my fellow fans trying to defend the trade are blind homers.

Quality wise, I wouldn't say it's the worst trade in NBA history, but it's definitely top 10.

When you consider the implications it had (OKC goes from potential dynasty with 4 superstars hitting their prime together to Durant possibly leaving OKC next season with zero rings)... I would say that it's the worst trade of all time.

Harden stays in OKC and Durant would have at least 3 rings before 30. We would be talking about him being a potential top 10 player of all time. His legacy was forever changed the day that Harden was traded.

[El Kabong]

The thing some people don't consider is there was a very good chance Harden would want out by now, even if he did re-sign with OKC. He wanted the big $ contract and he wanted to be THE guy on the team. He wasn't going to get either from hanging around OKC where he was behind Durant and Westbrook.

[Bigsmoke]

Lets not overreact. Harden + refs cost OKC the title after all.
The refs had nothing to do with it. The heat just won.

[Bigsmoke]

.


OKC had to choose.....keep harden or perkins......

.


.
http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/bill-cosby-breaks-silence-on-rape-accusations__oPt.jpg

you mean Serge Ibaka

[No_Look604]

There's only one ball to go around. He was bound to leave regardless.

And to think T-Mac didn't stick around to form that 1-2 punch with Carter...not even a third wheel scenario.:facepalm

[just_NONchalant]

Gasol for Kwame, and Vazquez for Pondexter were worse.
You forgot Marc Gasol. Considering how well Memphis has been doing afterwards it was a good trade(slight gamble that worked out)

[DMV2]

You forgot Marc Gasol. Considering how well Memphis has been doing afterwards it was a good trade(slight gamble that worked out)
Every trade involving an all-star and up caliber player will always be a gamble because they're trading proven players for picks and prospects.

Only Celtic/Rondo fans think otherwise, thinking Rondo is only tradeable if they get another big name player back. And look at how the Rondo trade turn out, a bunch of bench players and 2nd rounders.

[andremiller07]

But the Thunder got one of the worst starting C's in the NBA in the deal? And it opened up playing time for D-Leaguers like Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb :roll: .

Don't forget the great Reggie Jackson lol.

[tomtucker]

you mean Serge Ibaka

per year

Serge Ibaka $12,250,000

Kendrick Perkins $9,154,342
.
:confusedshrug:

[RoseCity07]

Another underrated stupid move was letting Jeff Green go. I hated playing OKC because even if by miracle the other big 3 didn't play well Jeff Green would pick up the slack. They had a big 4. Kendrick Perkins has always been trash.

[GOBB]

Charles Barkley trade was way worse.

[Top Gun]

Don't think that KD, Russ and Harden could survive together in the same offence as none of them would want to be the third option. KD, Russ and Ibaka are all still years from their peak so not sure why people are rushing them. Look how long it took Lebron and MJ.

[Eric Cartman]

Don't think that KD, Russ and Harden could survive together in the same offence as none of them would want to be the third option. KD, Russ and Ibaka are all still years from their peak so not sure why people are rushing them. Look how long it took Lebron and MJ.

Isn't this KD's 8th season? :confusedshrug:

If Lebron or MJ had the OKC roster they would've both won multiple titles.

[dunksby]

[QUOTE=2010splash]Name me once in NBA history a team with dynasty potential WILLINGLY pissed away an opportunity to develop a homegrown super-trio just to avoid ponying up the real dough that is required of all championship teams.

Heck, name me one time a team drafted three top 10 players and made the Finals with all of them under 23 years old.

A joke and third-rate organization OKC is. They ruined something that could have been very special. Instead they have glass knees Kevin Martin in his 30

[GIF REACTION]

Still a horrible trade

[Sarcastic]

he will choke in playoffs.


Good call. :applause:

[AirTupac]

Harden over Westbrook? HAHAHAHA What a bozo of a poster :roll:

[Kawhi]

:roll: :roll:



:eek: :eek:
Why are you laughing at some of those posts? The Thunder haven't won shit and they will never win shit. You're barely above .500 and didn't even make the playoffs last year. FOH.

[BIG FURB]

Harden over Westbrook? HAHAHAHA What a bozo of a poster :roll:

Wasn't Harden 2nd in mvp voting and playing in the WCF while Westbrook was watching the playoffs at home like the rest of us?

[SpecialQue]

Why are you laughing at some of those posts? The Thunder haven't won shit and they will never win shit. You're barely above .500 and didn't even make the playoffs last year. FOH.

Agreed. Shit doesn't make sense.

The Rockets had a great record last season, Harden was an MVP candidate, and they got to the conference finals, all while the Thunder went fishing. Are we still going to pretend that this trade was anything less than a fvcking disaster?