Lebron+wade= 1, Jordan+pippen=6, magic+kareem=5, Kobe+pau= 2

[kennethgriffin]

wade = top 25-30 all time
pippen = top 20-25 all time
kareem = arguable goat
pau = top 90-100 all time


pau:

averaged 19ppg
0-12 playoff rec as 1st option
averaged only 9 rebounds as a 7 footer
4 reserve allstar games
2 all nba third teams


is currently averaging 13/8/3 on 45%fg's as a 7 foot center/power forward


as for the other 3 guys

- dwyane wade

24/5/6 career average
7 all nba teams (2 first teams)
3 all defensive teams
finals mvp
allstar mvp
9 time starting allstar


- scottie pippen


20/7/6 average from 1990-1998
16/6/5 average career
7 all nba teams (3 first teams)
10 all defensive teams ( 8 first team )
allstar mvp
7 time allstar (starting some games )



kareem abdul jabbar


24/11/3 career
15 all nba teams (10 first teams )
11 all defensive teams ( 5 first teams )
7 time mvp
2 time finals mvp
19 time allstar ( started most )




3 hall of fame legends

1 boarderline allstar for half his career. a nobody for the other half


this is why i don't care that kobe had shaq for his first 3 rings... his 3 straight finals, back 2 back titles/finals mvps with a guy like pau gasol is something nobody else has ever done in nba history

hakeem did it once ( then won in 95 with a legend )

walton did it once

barry did it once

dirk did it once ( but lately its been obvious tyson chandler as a defensive anchor was the real reason the mavs were dominant )

duncan did it once in 2003

only these guys had comparable running mates for a single title

every other big name in nba history to lead a team to a championship did it with a legendary side kick

kobe did it with a bum................TWICE

[ZeN]

Not being a high caliber star historically doesnt mean him a bum.

[kennethgriffin]

Not being a high caliber star historically doesnt mean him a bum.


but he was a bum

hes pau gasol

the softest player in history

couldnt rebound the ball at 7 feet tall

could barely jump over a sheet of paper

settles for 20 footers

gets dunked on by 6-4 players




he was solid when the lakers won titles. but he was still one of the 5 worst 2nd options in championship history

and he should NOT make the hall of fame just because of a few silver medals from the olympics

[Deuce Bigalow]

Pau was great in the 09 & 10 Playoffs.
18/11/3/2 58FG
20/11/4/2 54FG

"Bum" :facepalm

[Segatti]

dirk did it once ( but lately its been obvious tyson chandler as a defensive anchor was the real reason the mavs were dominant )


You are an idiot. Dirk hasn't been playing like in 2011 playoffs, how can you get to this stupid conclusion?

[kennethgriffin]

Pau was great in the 09 & 10 Playoffs.
18/11/3 58FG
20/11/4 54FG

"Bum" :facepalm


i said he was solid during the titles

hes a bum career wise


without kobe he would have had a career similar to shareef abdur rahim

[kennethgriffin]

dirk did it once ( but lately its been obvious tyson chandler as a defensive anchor was the real reason the mavs were dominant )


You are an idiot. Dirk hasn't been playing like in 2011 playoffs, how can you get to this stupid conclusion?


i dunno... the knicks suddenly a title contender and a solid defensive team?

tyson is obviously a garnett type defensive anchor out there

[LikeABosh]

Gasol averaged 20 and 11 and 2 blocks per game on 54% shooting in the 2010 playoffs. What a bum

[asdf1990]

Gasol was robbed of a fmvp

[DMAVS41]

i said he was solid during the titles

hes a bum career wise


without kobe he would have had a career similar to shareef abdur rahim

and without shaq and gasol and phil jackson kobe would have had a career similar to allen iverson.

so what? means nothing....

Gasol during the two title runs was absolutely great. Way better than his numbers even suggest considering how clutch he was as well.

[kennethgriffin]

Gasol was robbed of a fmvp
:roll:

33/8/6 2009 finals average

30/6/5 2010 finals average


main play maker, main ball handler too

:lol

[HardwoodLegend]

Kobe shot 25% on the most shot attempts in Game 7 and benefitted from the other team's defensive anchor going down with an injury for one of those rings.

I don't even care if you classify Gasol as a "bum", but it's impossible to paint Kobe as a hero who carried that team when others had to clean up his mess.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Gasol was robbed of a fmvp
Your mother was robbed of her birth control

[asdf1990]

:roll:

33/8/6 2009 finals average

30/6/5 2010 finals average


main play maker, main ball handler too

:lol

30/6/5 are pretty good numbers for a sidekick

[kennethgriffin]

and without shaq and gasol and phil jackson kobe would have had a career similar to allen iverson.

so what? means nothing....

Gasol during the two title runs was absolutely great. Way better than his numbers even suggest considering how clutch he was as well.


i know everyone needs help

kobe just needed allot less than 90% of finals mvps

ofcourse if you take off your 2nd best player itel be hard to win

just saying kobes second best player for 2 straight titles was PAU GASOFT


lakers might be one of the only teams in history to win a title with ZERO interior defense

:bowdown:

[Duncan21formvp]

Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares each of the 3 full seasons he was there (from 2009 to 2011)
He finished 2nd in the league in 2011 in it, led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in 2010 and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010 while having a 24.0 PER in the playoffs and posted a 25.5 PER in the 2010 finals. Had over a 4.3 Win Share in 2009 as well in the playoffs.

He wasn't a superstar by name, but that is superstar production and even had greater production than his own teammate in some of those years.

[DMAVS41]

i know everyone needs help

kobe just needed allot less than 90% of finals mvps

ofcourse if you take off your 2nd best player itel be hard to win

just saying kobes second best player for 2 straight titles was PAU GASOFT


lakers might be one of the only teams in history to win a title with ZERO interior defense

:bowdown:

i don't see how gasol/odom/fisher/bynum/ariza(artest) coached by phil jackson is not a lot of help when you are playing the competition the Lakers played...

honestly the only great team they played was the 10 celtics...and it went 7 and could have gone either way

[Bigsmoke]

Hakeem won it with vernon maxwell as the Rocket's 2nd option in the playoffs and he averaged 14ppg on 37% shooting.

so Hakeem the G.O.A.T. right?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe shot 25% on the most shot attempts in Game 7 and benefitted from the other team's defensive anchor going down with an injury for one of those rings.

I don't even care if you classify Gasol as a "bum", but it's impossible to paint Kobe as a hero who carried that team when others had to clean up his mess.
The Lakers shot 32% as a team. While Kobe struggled from the field, he got to the Line 15 times, 9 times in the 4th quarter. Also grabbed 15 rebounds, the most defensive rebounds in the game. Nobody cleaned up his "mess". If his teammates showed up in Game 5, there would be no need for a Game 7.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares each of the 3 full seasons he was there (from 2009 to 2011)
He finished 2nd in the league in 2011 in it, led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in 2010 and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010 while having a 24.0 PER in the playoffs and posted a 25.5 PER in the 2010 finals. Had over a 4.3 Win Share in 2009 as well in the playoffs.

He wasn't a superstar by name, but that is superstar production and even had greater production than his own teammate in some of those years.
Kobe led the Lakers in PER and WS in the 2009 Playoffs and in PER in the 2010 Playoffs. Those stats are bullshit anyway.

Clyde Drexler had a higher playoff WS in the 1995 Playoffs than Hakeem.

Pau Gasol had a higher playoff PER in 2010 than every single playoff Larry Bird had except '84.

[HardwoodLegend]

The Lakers shot 32% as a team.

Then that speaks to the fact that the Lakers faced a historically bad old ass team missing their young defensive anchor.

Once again, Kobe lucked out. LUCK.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Then that speaks to the fact that the Lakers faced a historically bad old ass team missing their young defensive anchor.

Once again, Kobe lucked out. LUCK.
Did he luck out in Game 5 when he had 21 straight laker points in one stretch, finishing with 38 points, but lost?

[Heavincent]

Then that speaks to the fact that the Lakers faced a historically bad old ass team missing their young defensive anchor.

Once again, Kobe lucked out. LUCK.

So mad.

[tazb]

Pau was great in the 09 & 10 Playoffs.
18/11/3/2 58FG
20/11/4/2 54FG

"Bum" :facepalm

:oldlol: OP's a retard.

[HardwoodLegend]

Did he luck out in Game 5 when he had 21 straight laker points in one stretch, finishing with 38 points, but lost?

Naw, Game 5 was his own fault. Chemistry killer in that game. He knew he was facing a old senile weak opponent and tried to do too much.

[asdf1990]

Did he luck out in Game 5 when he had 21 straight laker points in one stretch, finishing with 38 points, but lost?

Gasol decided not to carry Kobe that game and lakers lost

[kennethgriffin]

Hakeem > Kobe then b/c he did it with a worse supporting cast.


for 1 title.. yea... if all these guys only had 1 title. hakeem would be at the top


but hakeem only did it once, and overall twice with his 2nd coming with clyde


kobe has multiple rings with no other hall of famer. and 5 overall as a guy averaging 25-30ppg/5reb/5ast+


only guy hakeem outranks out of those 4 guys is lebron

[Eat Like A Bosh]

OK we get it. Kobe's second option was clearly not as good as Jordan, LeBron or Magic/Kareem's second option. But despite not being very superstar heavy, a team of Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Ariza, Fish coached by Phil Jackson is by no means a bad team.

And Gasol certainly is no bum(or at least wasn't back then 08-10).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

for 1 title.. yea... if all these guys only had 1 title. hakeem would be at the top


but hakeem only did it once, and overall twice with his 2nd coming with clyde


kobe has multiple rings with no other hall of famer. and 5 overall as a guy averaging 25-30ppg/5reb/5ast+


only guy hakeem outranks out of those 4 guys is lebron

What are you even saying? Pau isn't a HOFer? :oldlol:

[BrickingStar]

What are you even saying? Pau isn't a HOFer? :oldlol:
You actually read his shit? It's cancerous.

[kennethgriffin]

OK we get it. Kobe's second option was clearly not as good as Jordan, LeBron or Magic/Kareem's second option. But despite not being very superstar heavy, a team of Kobe, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, Ariza, Fish coached by Phil Jackson is by no means a bad team.

And Gasol certainly is no bum(or at least wasn't back then 08-10).


it wasnt bad... but it wasnt great

odom never made an allstar team ( bosh made 8, rodman is a legendary defensive anchor/rebounder, worthy is a HOF legend )

bynum in 2009 and 2010 didnt even play. he averaged like 5ppg and sat 4th q's during those 2 title runs

ariza is a nobody... career 9/4/1 average man... solid defender. crap everywhere else IMO

fish hit clutch shots. but he was a bad defender, old, slow at the time. kobe was the pg and sg for the lakers. fish just hit a few spot up threes and never ran the offense



phil is great... but pat riley isnt? phil coached mike too...

spo is alright. but they won a title against scott brooks. both coaches werent really legendary


not too many teams win without a good coach

[KyrieTheFuture]

i know everyone needs help

kobe just needed allot less than 90% of finals mvps

ofcourse if you take off your 2nd best player itel be hard to win

just saying kobes second best player for 2 straight titles was PAU GASOFT


lakers might be one of the only teams in history to win a title with ZERO interior defense

:bowdown:

The heat had way less interior D

[HardwoodLegend]

odom never made an allstar team

He should have made it at least 3 different times, so you can call him all-star caliber.

He was a triple-double waiting to happen and copped a 6th Man of the Year award. It was a luxury for Kobe to have that kind of bench support.

The attempt to sell Kobe as this guy who carry a team to titles by himself falls short when you see what happened in the years immediately following Shaq's depature.

[Mr. Incredible]

We get it.

Kobe> Jordan and LeBron combined!

[Ne 1]

The '09 and '10 Lakers were the traditional style championship team, with one superstar, a great all-star sidekick, and varied contributions from good role players in the playoffs. Nothing more, nothing less.

[guy]

wade = top 25-30 all time
pippen = top 20-25 all time
kareem = arguable goat
pau = top 90-100 all time



Pau's better then top 90. Name 90 players better then him before you make that statement.

Its funny you say all this and conveniently leave out that Kobe won 3 playing with an arguable top 5, definitely top 10 player of all-time at his peak which was a top 1-5 peak of all-time. So if he overachieved by winning 2 with a top 90 player of all-time, isn't that kinda irrelevant because he underachieved by winning only 3 with one of the greatest players of all-time?

And statements like this are very misleading. Wade wasn't at a top 25-30 all-time level last year when Lebron won with him. Pippen was definitely not at a top 20-25 (arguably not a top 20-25 player anyway) all-time level for all of those titles. Kareem was a shell of himself for at least 3 of those titles with Magic, in fact Pau in those 2 titles was probably better then Kareem was for his last 2 titles.

Shaq was at his absolute peak for those 3 titles. In fact, you can easily argue that out of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, and Lebron, only Kobe played with as great of a player as peak Shaq.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Naw, Game 5 was his own fault. Chemistry killer in that game. He knew he was facing a old senile weak opponent and tried to do too much.
38 of the team's 86 points
Most assists on the team
Rest of his team shot 35%

dumbass

Gasol decided not to carry Kobe that game and lakers lost
Carry what? Kobe's luggage?

[keepinitreal]

Hakeem won it with vernon maxwell as the Rocket's 2nd option in the playoffs and he averaged 14ppg on 37% shooting.

so Hakeem the G.O.A.T. right?

:rockon:

[hitmanyr2k]

The Lakers had the squad to win titles for their era. The West teams for the most part had soft midgets in the paint and what it came down to is none of those weak west teams had a frontline that could compete with the size and length of Gasol, Bynum, and Odom. Bynum didn't even have to be completely healthy in '09 to be effective against the cupcake frontlines of the west. LA won because they could simply over-power most teams on the offensive boards and dominate the paint. The '10 Celtics had a tougher frontline than any other team LA faced which is why it went 7 games.

[Smoke117]

i know everyone needs help

kobe just needed allot less than 90% of finals mvps

ofcourse if you take off your 2nd best player itel be hard to win

just saying kobes second best player for 2 straight titles was PAU GASOFT


lakers might be one of the only teams in history to win a title with ZERO interior defense

:bowdown:


You say the dumbest shit. How did the Lakers have no interior defense? Gasol may not be an anchor, but he still played solid defense and through both of the Lakers championships, Lamar Odom was clearly their best defensive player and he played defense INSIDE. The laker's sure as hell weren't rated so high defensively those two season because of Kobe Bryant that's for sure.

[Smoke117]

i know everyone needs help

kobe just needed allot less than 90% of finals mvps

ofcourse if you take off your 2nd best player itel be hard to win

just saying kobes second best player for 2 straight titles was PAU GASOFT


lakers might be one of the only teams in history to win a title with ZERO interior defense

:bowdown:


You say the dumbest shit. How did the Lakers have no interior defense? Gasol may not be an anchor, but he still played solid defense and through both of the Lakers championships, Lamar Odom was clearly their best defensive player and he played defense INSIDE. The laker's sure as hell weren't rated so high defensively those two seasons because of Kobe Bryant that's for sure.

[I.R.Beast]

Gasol led the Lakers in Win Shares each of the 3 full seasons he was there (from 2009 to 2011)
He finished 2nd in the league in 2011 in it, led the Lakers in both PER and Win Shares in 2010 and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares in 2010 while having a 24.0 PER in the playoffs and posted a 25.5 PER in the 2010 finals. Had over a 4.3 Win Share in 2009 as well in the playoffs.

He wasn't a superstar by name, but that is superstar production and even had greater production than his own teammate in some of those years.
win shares?....get outta here....

[OldSchoolBBall]

Gasol was giving production comparable to/better than Pippen in the '09/'10 postseasons, and his impact went beyond even that due to his skill level offensively and length defensively. OP is an idiot.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe + Pau + Bynum = 2

Stop excluding Bynum, the center with best post-up game in NBA.

[Mechanixxxx]

No mention of Pau's Rookie of the year award....

[Money 23]

Gasol was giving production comparable to/better than Pippen in the '09/'10 postseasons, and his impact went beyond even that due to his skill level offensively and length defensively. OP is an idiot.
Let's not forget the offensive versatility of Odom, comparable to Pippen (even off the bench) and defensive impact, that while not near as great as Pippen certainly provided much for that team (Ariza in '09 and Artest in '10) ... the Lakers were lucky the Celtics were injured in 2009. That would've been their biggest test. Their playoff opponents weren't all that special. The Nuggets were decent.

[TheBigVeto]

wade = top 25-30 all time
pippen = top 20-25 all time
kareem = arguable goat
pau = top 90-100 all time


pau:

averaged 19ppg
0-12 playoff rec as 1st option
averaged only 9 rebounds as a 7 footer
4 reserve allstar games
2 all nba third teams


is currently averaging 13/8/3 on 45%fg's as a 7 foot center/power forward


as for the other 3 guys

- dwyane wade

24/5/6 career average
7 all nba teams (2 first teams)
3 all defensive teams
finals mvp
allstar mvp
9 time starting allstar


- scottie pippen


20/7/6 average from 1990-1998
16/6/5 average career
7 all nba teams (3 first teams)
10 all defensive teams ( 8 first team )
allstar mvp
7 time allstar (starting some games )



kareem abdul jabbar


24/11/3 career
15 all nba teams (10 first teams )
11 all defensive teams ( 5 first teams )
7 time mvp
2 time finals mvp
19 time allstar ( started most )




3 hall of fame legends

1 boarderline allstar for half his career. a nobody for the other half


this is why i don't care that kobe had shaq for his first 3 rings... his 3 straight finals, back 2 back titles/finals mvps with a guy like pau gasol is something nobody else has ever done in nba history

hakeem did it once ( then won in 95 with a legend )

walton did it once

barry did it once

dirk did it once ( but lately its been obvious tyson chandler as a defensive anchor was the real reason the mavs were dominant )

duncan did it once in 2003

only these guys had comparable running mates for a single title

every other big name in nba history to lead a team to a championship did it with a legendary side kick

kobe did it with a bum................TWICE

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg


http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif

[Vertical-24]

Naw, Game 5 was his own fault. Chemistry killer in that game. He knew he was facing a old senile weak opponent and tried to do too much.

You know you're reaching with that one.

And I don't understand OP's Gasol bashing. He was great in both runs and if not for his showing up in 2010, i'm not so sure we take the title at all. I'm just thankful we won. Do I believe Gasol was robbed of FMVP? No, I think it was rightfully given to Kobe but that doesn't mean Pau wasn't an integral part of us winning the title. Bashing Pau to prop up Kobe is ridiculous. Just be happy WE WON. Its a team effort, who cares who had the "least" help.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He should have made it at least 3 different times, so you can call him all-star caliber.

He was a triple-double waiting to happen and copped a 6th Man of the Year award. It was a luxury for Kobe to have that kind of bench support.

The attempt to sell Kobe as this guy who carry a team to titles by himself falls short when you see what happened in the years immediately following Shaq's depature.

:roll:

Please list the years Odom should have made the all star team and who he should have replaced on said team.

He also has 12 triple doubles over the course of his 14 year career. That's a lot of waiting.

[alleykat]

this is why i don't care that kobe had shaq for his first 3 rings... his 3 straight finals, back 2 back titles/finals mvps with a guy like pau gasol is something nobody else has ever done in nba history



u do care, otherwise u wouldn't be trying to justify anything....

anyways pau gasol is an all-star and maybe a hall of fame ballot. one of the best power forwards of the decade. why try and discredit him? does it make kobe look any better?

phil jackson was trash and overrated too then huh?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe + Pau + Bynum = 2

Stop excluding Bynum, the center with best post-up game in NBA.

http://i.imgur.com/MiuNmFD.png

Most TWIN TOWER DOMINANT 7 pts a game OF ALL TIME!

[j3lademaster]

This is taken way out of context. I get into debates about how Kobe won so many titles with Gasoft who wouldn't even be a top 5 c in the 80's or 90's all the time... with the only issue of that logic being... Gasol didn't play in the 80's/90's. Kareem went up against Moses Malone, Jordan didn't even have the luxury of a big when it was a standard to have at least an all-star big if you even wanted to compete, Wade is not the "top 25-30 all time" Wade anymore.

Gasol outplayed Dwight in the finals straight up. If Gasol wasn't the best c in the league in those championship years then who was? Dwight, who 80% of the laker fan base says is the cancer and root of the problems (along with the coach) of the Lakers this year? Even if you say Dwight, Gasol is 2nd those years, and again: he outplayed Dwight straight up in those finals.

Kobe had one of the top pf's (and top 2 c when he played that position) AVAILABLE during those championship runs. He can't have a Kareem, Drobb, Hakeem, etc. or anything close, but he didn't have to play against that quality of big man either(before 3 second rule where bigs can camp and average 4 blocks/game, too), or anything close.

And with Bynum healthy Lakers had the best rim protection in the league. I mean Lakers frontcourt was massive. Not trying to say he was Bill Russell, but who in the league had better? Lakers, though not historically stacked, was as stacked or more than some of those bulls teams compared to the rest of the league.

I actually rank Kobe 7th/8th all-time before the haters start coming after me.

[kennethgriffin]

http://i.imgur.com/MiuNmFD.png

Most TWIN TOWER DOMINANT 7 pts a game OF ALL TIME!

beat me to it

:roll:


bynums epic 6ppg average in finals is legendary

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is taken way out of context. I get into debates about how Kobe won so many titles with Gasoft who wouldn't even be a top 5 c in the 80's or 90's all the time... with the only issue of that logic being... Gasol didn't play in the 80's/90's. Kareem went up against Moses Malone, Jordan didn't even have the luxury of a big when it was a standard to have at least an all-star big if you even wanted to compete, Wade is not the "top 25-30 all time" Wade anymore.

Gasol outplayed Dwight in the finals straight up. If Gasol wasn't the best c in the league in those championship years then who was? Dwight, who 80% of the laker fan base says is the cancer and root of the problems (along with the coach) of the Lakers this year? Even if you say Dwight, Gasol is 2nd those years, and again: he outplayed Dwight straight up in those finals.


Dwight and Garnett were both better than Pau Gasol. They were DPOY and MVP candidates. Current Dwight has as much relevance to 2009 Dwight as current Pau has to 2009 Pau.


Kobe had one of the top pf's (and top 2 c when he played that position) AVAILABLE during those championship runs. He can't have a Kareem, Drobb, Hakeem, etc. or anything close, but he didn't have to play against that quality of big man either(before 3 second rule where bigs can camp and average 4 blocks/game, too), or anything close.


Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett are hall of fame level post players. :confusedshrug:


And with Bynum healthy Lakers had the best rim protection in the league. I mean Lakers frontcourt was massive. Not trying to say he was Bill Russell, but who in the league had better? Lakers, though not historically stacked, was as stacked or more than some of those bulls teams compared to the rest of the league.

Bynum wasn't healthy for either title run. What team was more stacked? The Celtics. Their bigs were just as good as the Lakers leaving Kobe to will his team to victory over Ray Allen, Rondo and Paul Pierce while having some of the worst backcourt support in the entire league.


I actually rank Kobe 7th/8th all-time before the haters start coming after me.

Irrelevant

[j3lademaster]

Dwight and Garnett were both better than Pau Gasol. They were DPOY and MVP candidates. Current Dwight has as much relevance to 2009 Dwight as current Pau has to 2009 Pau.



Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett are hall of fame level post players. :confusedshrug:



Bynum wasn't healthy for either title run. What team was more stacked? The Celtics. Their bigs were just as good as the Lakers leaving Kobe to will his team to victory over Ray Allen, Rondo and Paul Pierce while having some of the worst backcourt support in the entire league.



IrrelevantWho during the Lakers Kobe/Gasol 2peat weren't nearly the level of players as Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, Drobb, Ewing, etc. Thanks for proving my point

[HelterSkelter]

:oldlol: so, just to promote Kobe.. you suddenly rank Wade top 25-30 all-time? :roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Who during the Lakers Kobe/Gasol 2peat weren't nearly the level of players as Kareem, Hakeem, Moses, Drobb, Ewing, etc. Thanks for proving my point

2009 Dwight Howard is right up there with anybody on that list. I don't know who you think you are fooling with that mantra that Pau outplayed him. Pau on the Magic are first round fodder and he doesn't even come close to what prime healthy Howard represents defensively. And nice try trying to sneak Patrick Ewing among some of the greatest of all time. :lol

[schism206]

Pau's better then top 90. Name 90 players better then him before you make that statement.

Its funny you say all this and conveniently leave out that Kobe won 3 playing with an arguable top 5, definitely top 10 player of all-time at his peak which was a top 1-5 peak of all-time. So if he overachieved by winning 2 with a top 90 player of all-time, isn't that kinda irrelevant because he underachieved by winning only 3 with one of the greatest players of all-time?

And statements like this are very misleading. Wade wasn't at a top 25-30 all-time level last year when Lebron won with him. Pippen was definitely not at a top 20-25 (arguably not a top 20-25 player anyway) all-time level for all of those titles. Kareem was a shell of himself for at least 3 of those titles with Magic, in fact Pau in those 2 titles was probably better then Kareem was for his last 2 titles.

Shaq was at his absolute peak for those 3 titles. In fact, you can easily argue that out of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, and Lebron, only Kobe played with as great of a player as peak Shaq.
:applause:

[knicksman]

pau actually is a mvp caliber type of player. Remember at the start of 2010-11 season when he was carrying the lakers while kobe was injured. But kobe doesnt want to get exposed as one of the luckiest players to play this game so he shotjacked left and right and then they started losing. After that, pau lost his passion and so kobe also started losing.

[Breezy]

To the op:

You're clearly a bright guy. You have an opinion and you have the wit to carefully place the info relevant to the argument in a way that highlights what you're trying to say. You certainly have a lot more insight that some of these other Kobe maniacs that start topics like... "So Kobe is clearly the best passer of all time, DISCUSS!!" Or "Kobe was Robbed of the MVP his rookie year" so I hope you'll take this as constructive criticism when I say that you're a one trick pony.

When ever I see a topic you've created I don't even have to look to see what it's about, If there is a topic even remotely referencing Kobe or lebron I know you'll be there lobbing grenades at the other side. You know who feels the need to constantly defend a position or insert it where it doesn't belong? People who know their critics are right. Go ahead test me call a tall guy short and see what happens. He'll just laugh and keep walking. Next call a short guy short and see how freaks out.

BRANCH THE **** OUT!!!!!

Start talking about other nba topics. There is a ton of em. and people might be interested to hear your opinion.

I was pleasantly surprised to see you're Garnett topic from earlier today. But even then in the back of my mind I was wondering if wasn't some underhanded way to prop up Kobe.


Just talk about something else for once.

What do you think about Basketball maybe coming back to seattle? Pretty exciting?!

[guy]

Dwight and Garnett were both better than Pau Gasol. They were DPOY and MVP candidates. Current Dwight has as much relevance to 2009 Dwight as current Pau has to 2009 Pau.



Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett are hall of fame level post players. :confusedshrug:



Bynum wasn't healthy for either title run. What team was more stacked? The Celtics. Their bigs were just as good as the Lakers leaving Kobe to will his team to victory over Ray Allen, Rondo and Paul Pierce while having some of the worst backcourt support in the entire league.



Irrelevant

In 08, KG was definitely better then Gasol, but in 09 and 10 he definitely wasn't. In 09 he definitely wasn't at least because of injury, but in 10 he wasn't regardless and was outplayed by Gasol in the Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

In 08, KG was definitely better then Gasol, but in 09 and 10 he definitely wasn't. In 09 he definitely wasn't at least because of injury, but in 10 he wasn't regardless and was outplayed by Gasol in the Finals.

Gasol didn't outplay Garnett. He just played more minutes. Gasol hasn't outplayed his counterpart in the playoffs in years. Garnett outplays Gasol everytime he steps on the court for his defense alone.

[guy]

Gasol didn't outplay Garnett. He just played more minutes. Gasol hasn't outplayed his counterpart in the playoffs in years. Garnett outplays Gasol everytime he steps on the court for his defense alone.

:oldlol: KG couldn't even average 6 rebounds per game. And this was years ago. Gasol hasn't done shit in the playoffs the last 2 years, and I'd say KG has been better, but Gasol was better for those 2 years.

A big reason KG was playing less was getting into foul trouble. Plus, the fact that KG was too old and injured to play more minutes isn't exactly a good thing. You think the Celtics didn't want him to play 40 mpg if he could? :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: KG couldn't even average 6 rebounds per game. And this was years ago. Gasol hasn't done shit in the playoffs the last 2 years, and I'd say KG has been better, but Gasol was better for those 2 years.

A big reason KG was playing less was getting into foul trouble. Plus, the fact that KG was too old and injured to play more minutes isn't exactly a good thing. You think the Celtics didn't want him to play 40 mpg if he could? :oldlol:

If your go to trait to hype up Pau Gasol is his rebounding you know you are reaching.

I think the Celtics would take 32 mins of Garnett over 42 mins of Gasol all day as would every other team in the league including the Lakers. He's a defensive Juggernaut, Gasol is a defensive liability. Gasol would have to be Rodman on the boards to even make it a push.

[DMAVS41]

Gasol didn't outplay Garnett. He just played more minutes. Gasol hasn't outplayed his counterpart in the playoffs in years. Garnett outplays Gasol everytime he steps on the court for his defense alone.

Gasol clearly outplayed KG in the 2010 Finals. What the **** are you smoking?

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KG was a joke on the glass and his defense was good, but hardly up to his standard. He obviously had worn down that late into the playoffs and had lost his legs.

The notion that KG was better than Gasol in the 2010 Finals is just objectively false. No argument can be made at all...

[longtime lurker]

OP is an idiot but there have been some almost equally idiot posts in this thread.

[BrickingStar]

Gasol clearly outplayed KG in the 2010 Finals. What the **** are you smoking?

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KG was a joke on the glass and his defense was good, but hardly up to his standard. He obviously had worn down that late into the playoffs and had lost his legs.

The notion that KG was better than Gasol in the 2010 Finals is just objectively false. No argument can be made at all...
This guy will go to new levels to make kobe look greater than he really is, he's trying to sell us the gasol has always been like the gasol we see now. Gasol was huge in the lakers title run

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gasol clearly outplayed KG in the 2010 Finals. What the **** are you smoking?

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KG was a joke on the glass and his defense was good, but hardly up to his standard. He obviously had worn down that late into the playoffs and had lost his legs.

The notion that KG was better than Gasol in the 2010 Finals is just objectively false. No argument can be made at all...

No argument can be made if you post cherry picked raw statistics, ignore minutes played, ignore efficiency and compare 2010 KG defensively to prime KG instead of 2010 Gasol. :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

No argument can be made if you post cherry picked raw statistics, ignore minutes played, ignore efficiency and compare 2010 KG defensively to prime KG instead of 2010 Gasol. :oldlol:


seriously... even if garnett only averaged 5ppg. he would still be more valuable than gasol

i would take garnetts defense over paus offense any day of the week

difference is garnett can drop nearly 20ppg at the same time. while pau gets shat on every chance he gets to try and block anyone

[DMAVS41]

No argument can be made if you post cherry picked raw statistics, ignore minutes played, ignore efficiency and compare 2010 KG defensively to prime KG instead of 2010 Gasol. :oldlol:

How can playing less minutes be a positive? If you aren't on the court, you don't do anything. Your impact is 0. The only way you could argue that being positive for KG is if Gasol was hurting the Lakers...which everyone knows would be absurd.

KG was not even close to himself in the series. He was awful on the glass especially.

Nobody...I mean nobody...objectively evaluating that series would come away thinking that KG outplayed Gasol. Absurd....

[guy]

If your go to trait to hype up Pau Gasol is his rebounding you know you are reaching.

I think the Celtics would take 32 mins of Garnett over 42 mins of Gasol all day as would every other team in the league including the Lakers. He's a defensive Juggernaut, Gasol is a defensive liability. Gasol would have to be Rodman on the boards to even make it a push.

:roll: Gasol was not a defensive liability. He wasn't as great as KG but you're making seem like he was Amare Stoudemire. Gasol was a 10-12 rpg player from 09-12 and was top 10 each year. How am I reaching? You maybe right about the Celtics rather taking 32 mins of KG over 42 mins of Gasol but alot of that has to do with his personality and leadership and the culture of that team. Either way, you know for damn sure the Lakers wouldn't have done that.

:oldlol: this revisionist history you're trying to make. During the series, the general feeling was that Gasol was playing better then KG for the most part. The general feeling was that in the LA games Gasol badly outplayed KG who was terrible in LA, and for the 3 games in Boston, KG had 2 really good games and was better then Gasol and in the other game they both didn't really do much, but overall Gasol wasn't nearly as bad in Boston as KG was in LA.

By the way, did you say or imply that Kobe willed that team to victory singlehandedly while his bigs sucked it up and got no backcourt support? It was Gasol, Fisher, and Artest that hit the biggest shots at the end of that game 7 with Gasol and Artest having better games overall. It was Fisher that singlehandedly closed out game 3 while Kobe was playing cheerleader (and this wasn't the first Finals game of their careers that Fisher closed out and Kobe didn't). You will go to ridiculous lengths to prop up Kobe, even to the point of painting history with lies.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:roll: Gasol was not a defensive liability. He wasn't as great as KG but you're making seem like he was Amare Stoudemire. Gasol was a 10-12 rpg player from 09-12 and was top 10 each year. How am I reaching? You maybe right about the Celtics rather taking 32 mins of KG over 42 mins of Gasol but alot of that has to do with his personality and leadership and the culture of that team. Either way, you know for damn sure the Lakers wouldn't have done that.

:oldlol: this revisionist history you're trying to make. During the series, the general feeling was that Gasol was playing better then KG for the most part. The general feeling was that in the LA games Gasol badly outplayed KG who was terrible in LA, and for the 3 games in Boston, KG had 2 really good games and was better then Gasol and in the other game they both didn't really do much, but overall Gasol wasn't nearly as bad in Boston as KG was in LA.

By the way, did you say or imply that Kobe willed that team to victory singlehandedly while his bigs sucked it up and got no backcourt support? It was Gasol, Fisher, and Artest that hit the biggest shots at the end of that game 7 with Gasol and Artest having better games overall. It was Fisher that singlehandedly closed out game 3 while Kobe was playing cheerleader (and this wasn't the first Finals game of their careers that Fisher closed out and Kobe didn't). You will go to ridiculous lengths to prop up Kobe, even to the point of painting history with lies.

Why wouldn't the Lakers do it? The would have done in 08, 09, 10, 11, 12 and today. The gap between the two on offense is negligible and their differences on defense are vast. Pau Gasol is a great #2 guy. Kevin Garnett was the identity of that team. Their playoff run was fueled by elite level defense http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6237 A prime healthy KG doesn't wait to the postseason to turn it on but make no mistake he was still dominant defensively.

Gasol, Fisher and Artest were 17/40 in Game 7. My comment about backcourt support wasn't about the last 30 secs of random games of your choosing but rather the entirety of 2008-2010. If you disagree please feel free to name names.

[Fatstogey]

Problem is 2 guys on that list are gonna get more rings yet to come so....

[crisoner]

Pau Gasol a bum????

If utilized the right way he is still one of the top 5 bigmen in the NBA.

SMH

[Stuckey]

OP is the reason I dont read much from this section of the site

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How can playing less minutes be a positive? If you aren't on the court, you don't do anything. Your impact is 0. The only way you could argue that being positive for KG is if Gasol was hurting the Lakers...which everyone knows would be absurd.

KG was not even close to himself in the series. He was awful on the glass especially.

Nobody...I mean nobody...objectively evaluating that series would come away thinking that KG outplayed Gasol. Absurd....

Playing less minutes isn't a positive but it brings the dreaded context to the discussion that you selectively despise. Gasol rebounded better than Garnett, that's it. The gap isn't a large that it appears because Gasol was simply on the court more. On a per minute basis Garnett was the better scorer and more efficient. And the elephant in the room that you guys like to gloss over is that Garnett's impact defensively trumps Gasol 10 out of 10 times.

[NBASTATMAN]

The Lakers shot 32% as a team. While Kobe struggled from the field, he got to the Line 15 times, 9 times in the 4th quarter. Also grabbed 15 rebounds, the most defensive rebounds in the game. Nobody cleaned up his "mess". If his teammates showed up in Game 5, there would be no need for a Game 7.


I won some money on that Finals. Who you kiddin the Refs cleaned up the mess for the Lakers...:D

[NBASTATMAN]

The Lakers won the 2009 title cuz Kg got injured and in 2010 they win cuz Perkins was injured.. In 2002 Peja was injured for the WCF if not they lose that as well. I won't even mention that if Duncan is not injured in 2000 you lose to the Spurs that year.

The Lakers have benefited from injuries and the REFS HELP.
:rockon:

[NumberSix]

LeBron+Wade=1...... so far.

[Bandito]

dirk did it once ( but lately its been obvious tyson chandler as a defensive anchor was the real reason the mavs were dominant ) I am baffled by this, since when has the Mavs been dominant? They won by pure will of the veterans Dirk, Barea, Terry, Chandler, Marion, Kidd and even Stevenson (among others.) They were not dominant.

[guy]

Why wouldn't the Lakers do it? The would have done in 08, 09, 10, 11, 12 and today. The gap between the two on offense is negligible and their differences on defense are vast. Pau Gasol is a great #2 guy. Kevin Garnett was the identity of that team. Their playoff run was fueled by elite level defense http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6237 A prime healthy KG doesn't wait to the postseason to turn it on but make no mistake he was still dominant defensively.

Gasol, Fisher and Artest were 17/40 in Game 7. My comment about backcourt support wasn't about the last 30 secs of random games of your choosing but rather the entirety of 2008-2010. If you disagree please feel free to name names.

I already said KG was better then Gasol in 08, 11, 12. But in 09 and 10? There's no way the Lakers take KG over Gasol. In 09 at least just for the simple fact that KG got injured and his age and durability was starting to become a question mark, while Gasol was at the peak of his career, and in 10 because Gasol was just better, while KG was old and on the decline and that clearly showed with KG basically running out of gas at the end while Gasol was arguably his team's best player in that game 7.

Bottom line is Kobe didn't will that team singlehandedly to shit against the Celtics. You're making it seem like he pulled a Jordan 1998 game 6 vs. the Jazz type of performance against them when he clearly didn't. It was much more of a team effort, with some of his teammates arguably doing more at the end of games in some cases. You can say that about Kobe in game 5 of that series if the Lakers had won that game, but they didn't.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I already said KG was better then Gasol in 08, 11, 12. But in 09 and 10? There's no way the Lakers take KG over Gasol. In 09 at least just for the simple fact that KG got injured and his age and durability was starting to become a question mark, while Gasol was at the peak of his career, and in 10 because Gasol was just better, while KG was old and on the decline and that clearly showed with KG basically running out of gas at the end while Gasol was arguably his team's best player in that game 7.

Bottom line is Kobe didn't will that team singlehandedly to shit against the Celtics. You're making it seem like he pulled a Jordan 1998 game 6 vs. the Jazz type of performance against them when he clearly didn't. It was much more of a team effort, with some of his teammates arguably doing more at the end of games in some cases. You can say that about Kobe in game 5 of that series if the Lakers had won that game, but they didn't.

Jordan's teammates shot 59% in Game 6.
Kobe's teammates shot 36% in Game 7.

Jordan had 2 rebounds+Assists in Game 6.
Kobe had 17 Rebounds+Assists in Game 7.

Yeah clearly it was Kobe who had all the help not Jordan. :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Gasol clearly outplayed KG in the 2010 Finals. What the **** are you smoking?

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KG was a joke on the glass and his defense was good, but hardly up to his standard. He obviously had worn down that late into the playoffs and had lost his legs.

The notion that KG was better than Gasol in the 2010 Finals is just objectively false. No argument can be made at all...



:wtf:

Yao put his foot in his mouth.. :roll:

[guy]

Jordan's teammates shot 59% in Game 6.
Kobe's teammates shot 36% in Game 7.

Jordan had 2 rebounds+Assists in Game 6.
Kobe had 17 Rebounds+Assists in Game 7.

Yeah clearly it was Kobe who had all the help not Jordan. :oldlol:

Do you ever watch games or just read box scores? Jordan took over half of his team's shots and scored over half their points for a reason. There is arguably no closer situation to a player singlehandedly willing his team to a victory then that, and there's nothing in Kobe's Finals career that even comes close to that and definitely not that game 7 where other players were hitting the bigger shots.

:oldlol: Where is this revisionist history coming from? No one in their right mind was saying Kobe singlehandedly willed that team to victory in game 7 or any of those games in general. In fact, after game 7, the general feeling was that his teammates bailed him out. Kobe even said his teammates really came through for him that night and made up for what he was lacking. What world were you living in during that time ? :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Do you ever watch games or just read box scores? Jordan took over half of his team's shots and scored over half their points for a reason. There is arguably no closer situation to a player singlehandedly willing his team to a victory then that, and there's nothing in Kobe's Finals career that even comes close to that and definitely not that game 7 where other players were hitting the bigger shots.

:oldlol: Where is this revisionist history coming from? No one in their right mind was saying Kobe singlehandedly willed that team to victory in game 7 or any of those games in general. In fact, after game 7, the general feeling was that his teammates bailed him out. Kobe even said his teammates really came through for him that night and made up for what he was lacking. What world were you living in during that time ? :oldlol:

How is it that you continually argue against yourself yet somehow find a way to lose?

I never claimed Kobe won Game 7 by himself. I said his backcourt support from 2008-2010 was among the worst in the league if not the worst. You countered that up with some irrelevant Jordan mythology. :confusedshrug:

[guy]

How is it that you continually argue against yourself yet somehow find a way to lose?

I never claimed Kobe won Game 7 by himself. I said his backcourt support from 2008-2010 was among the worst in the league if not the worst. You countered that up with some irrelevant Jordan mythology. :confusedshrug:

I'm not losing shit cause I'm not the one thats continuously making up history.

This is what you said:

Bynum wasn't healthy for either title run. What team was more stacked? The Celtics. Their bigs were just as good as the Lakers leaving Kobe to will his team to victory over Ray Allen, Rondo and Paul Pierce while having some of the worst backcourt support in the entire league.

You said Kobe was willing his team to victory. If you're just talking about strictly backcourt, then what the **** does that even mean? There's 5 players on the court. He's not singlehandedly willing his team to anything if other players are stepping up as well. And even if you can somehow just restrict it to the backcourt, 2 of the games they won were blowouts. Game 3 it was Derek Fisher who closed out that game going 5-7 in the 4th while Kobe went a disgusting 1-6. If you're including Paul Pierce then I'm assuming you should also be including Ron Artest, who arguably was the best player in game 7 and hit the biggest shot. So no matter how you look at it, Kobe in no shape or form willed his team singlehandedly to anything vs. the Celtics.

The Jordan example was just an example. And its not mythology. Thats what people were saying and what the general feeling was. That he singlehandedly willed his team to victory that night, unlike Kobe in game 7 vs. the Celtics which was like the exact opposite .

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not losing shit cause I'm not the one thats continuously making up history.

This is what you said:

Bynum wasn't healthy for either title run. What team was more stacked? The Celtics. Their bigs were just as good as the Lakers leaving Kobe to will his team to victory over Ray Allen, Rondo and Paul Pierce while having some of the worst backcourt support in the entire league.

You said Kobe was willing his team to victory. If you're just talking about strictly backcourt, then what the **** does that even mean? There's 5 players on the court. He's not singlehandedly willing his team to anything if other players are stepping up as well. And even if you can somehow just restrict it to the backcourt, 2 of the games they won were blowouts. Game 3 it was Derek Fisher who closed out that game going 5-7 in the 4th while Kobe went a disgusting 1-6. If you're including Paul Pierce then I'm assuming you should also be including Ron Artest, who arguably was the best player in game 7 and hit the biggest shot. So no matter how you look at it, Kobe in no shape or form willed his team singlehandedly to anything vs. the Celtics.

The Jordan example was just an example. And its not mythology. Thats what people were saying and what the general feeling was. That he singlehandedly willed his team to victory that night, unlike Kobe in game 7 vs. the Celtics which was like the exact opposite .

See once again you are arguing against yourself. Pau Gasol was the best player 3 posts ago for Game 7 and now its Ron Artest. :oldlol: As I said before my comments are not in reference to extreme limited subsets of games that you cling to (non blowout games, last 6 shots for Fisher of one game , last 1 one shot for Artest of another). Ron Artest and Derick Fisher were 13 for 42 (31%) from 3 in the Finals. Artest shot an amazing 7 for 18 in Game 7. Name a player who won a title recently with worse backcourt support.

The disconnect between what people "say" and "feel" and the evidence that's left behind is the definition of mythology. :confusedshrug:

[raptorfan_dr07]

Ron Artest and Derick Fisher were 13 for 42 (31%) from 3 in the Finals. Artest shot an amazing 7 for 18 in Game 7. Name a player who won a title recently with worse backcourt support.


Derek Fisher shot 45% from the field and 36% from 3 in 2010 playoffs. Kobe by comparison, shot 46% from the field and 37% from 3.

Pau Gasol in Game 7: 38% shooting
Ron Artest in Game 7: 39% shooting
Derek Fisher in Game 7: 67% shooting

Kobe Bryant in Game 7: 25%

They all shot significantly better than him in Game 7. Kobe choked plain and simple. He had his shot at imposing his will in legendary fashion against the Lakers most hated opponent in the biggest game of the season and he choked. Luckily for him, his teammates came through.

And Gasol outplayed KG in the 2010 Finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Derek Fisher shot 45% from the field and 36% from 3 in 2010 playoffs. Kobe by comparison, shot 46% from the field and 37% from 3.

Pau Gasol in Game 7: 38% shooting
Ron Artest in Game 7: 39% shooting
Derek Fisher in Game 7: 67% shooting

Kobe Bryant in Game 7: 25%

They all shot significantly better than him in Game 7. Kobe choked plain and simple. He had his shot at imposing his will in legendary fashion against the Lakers most hated opponent in the biggest game of the season and he choked. Luckily for him, his teammates came through.

And Gasol outplayed KG in the 2010 Finals.

Kobe's disastrous Game 7

6-24 = 25.0%

His amazing teammates who carried the load

21-59= 35.6%

10.6% gap

Jordan heroically leading his team to victory single-handedly in Game 6

15-35= 42.9%

His scrub teammates

19-32= 59.4%

16.5% gap

:confusedshrug: