Short Penny Hardaway video to help you answer a question....

[Kblaze8855]

I put this together earlier intending to use it as evidence in another topic but it went another direction so im gonna leave it in here and probably delete it(the video not topic) later as its not really...about...anything. Just making a point for me:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li6sA5DTHCg


Penny Hardaway probably had Kobes footwork if not better....and something along the lines of Lebrons passing. He didnt quite have Wades finishing but he was trouble going to the rim.

I thought he was overrated in his prime but he would probably be better now than he was then.

Good example of a less popular player who can hang with the all time greats in a few respects.

And because of it I ask....which of these guards do you think a healthy Penny can replace and make the team they had at the time better?


Lebron
Kobe
Deron
Wade
Chris paul
Tmac
VC
Iverson
Pierce
Melo
Nash
Westbrook
Arenas
Ray Allen
Derrick Rose

Points included because...though history doesnt seem to remember it that way...Penny Hardaway was flat out a point guard until he fell off. He just happened to be 6'7''. But he was a legit all the time point guard.

How many of those guys can you see Penny standing in for and making a team better? Im thinking...9 of them. That doesnt mean I think Penny is better than 9 of them. But I think Penny on 9 of their teams...makes those team possibly improve.

Hard to say how much....but unselfishness and passing really do rub off when your star has as much as Penny did. I cant see many others as talented as he taking 15 shots a game.

Penny could probably have scored 22-25 a night just living in the post.

The longer I get from 1995 hearing my friends claim hes better than Jordan the more I can respect what he brought to the game.

I will still...never...ever...rank him ahead of Grant Hill though.

[HAzE024]

Song? I heard Big L in the beginning (my #1 GOAT rapper)


How many of those guys can you see Penny standing in for and making a team better? Im thinking...9 of them. That doesnt mean I think Penny is better than 9 of them. But I think Penny on 9 of their teams...makes those team possibly improve.


Well, I might say he is better than 9 of those players. Assumiing health, I'd take him over Deron,T-Mac, VC, Iverson, Pierce, Melo, Westbrook, Arenas, Rose. Ok, maybe not AI

PS - When I grow up, I want to be the subject a kblaze video.

[SCdac]

Sweeet. Hands down one of my favorite players growing up. And I'm sure many from my generation (born in mid-80s).

[Clippersfan86]

Random question but was T-Mac's favorite player Penny? He chose number 1 and worse the same arm band as Penny.

[Mechanixxxx]

I was a huge Penny fan back in the day. I even tried to emulate his game, which at first led me to commit lots of turnovers :facepalm lol

[plowking]

Very underrated. When Shaq went down and when he was running the team himself he did a great job. Didn't really skip a beat considering Shaq went down.

Much more impactful than his stats suggest, even though they were quite good from a stand alone perspective.

[PJR]

http://5.kicksonfire.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/nike-air-penny-ii-black-white-varsity-royal-19.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Jailblazers7]

Penny highlights are always awesome. He would eat people up in the post in today's NBA.

I think an argument can be made for him improving those team of almost everyone on those lists with like 4 or 5 exceptions.

[Rake2204]

I'd like to see full footage of Hardaway's little dunk on Mutombo (along with the finger wave).

Also, what's the deal with Penny picking pockets while sitting down underneath the basket? Should have been in a scouting report. And always good to work in a David Wood cameo, even if he's just struggling to outrun someone sitting down.

http://www.marcoislandchamber.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/blog_full/David%20Wood%202.jpg

[ncrizzle]

Injuries..... Who knows how good he could have been. I remember reading somewhere Jordan saying penny was the hardest person to guard

[Whoah10115]

I really think he could have ended up the 2nd best PG of all-time. Penny and Hill...those two guys were so good and it's pretty sad how many people think that's just nostalgia talking. Add Kidd and that's one hell of a mid-90's trio.

[pauk]

One of my favorite players of all time :bowdown: Great video

[Myth]

Here is another Short Penny commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MGX0h7eNhU

And:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2ddc8-KH0M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poKrDMTTPJE&NR=1&feature=fvwp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVmnb3z96zg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgPNj3CFpC8

[pauk]

And because of it I ask....which of these guards do you think a healthy Penny can replace and make the team they had at the time better?


Lebron (ouch, hell no...)
Kobe (arguably 2000-2001-2002 and most definitely would bring more success than 1996-1999 Kobe)
Deron
Wade (today only)
Chris paul (arguably)
Tmac (tough one, but im not sure Penny would bring more success)
VC
Iverson (tough one)
Pierce
Melo
Nash (probably not that Suns MVP nash tho, not sure)
Westbrook
Arenas
Ray Allen
Derrick Rose


I am a bit Penny biased but i did my best :P

With that being said i would take Penny over anybody up there but Lebron... even if it meant less success, i liked him that much, i wouldnt mind the eye candy, his game was so damn smooth, that postgame and footwork was just ridicilous (felt better than Kobes footwork to me, it was kindof quicker).... then the rest was alot like Lebron, that length, athleticism, could score, rebound, pass...

[Kblaze8855]

I really think he could have ended up the 2nd best PG of all-time. Penny and Hill...those two guys were so good and it's pretty sad how many people think that's just nostalgia talking. Add Kidd and that's one hell of a mid-90's trio.



Considering how many people put Stockton and Kidd high in those talks its not impossible. Dude was all nba first team over both of them. Kidd wasnt quite prime kidd but Penny never got to prime Penny himself. And Stockton was just starting to slow but it didnt show much.

Penny had the potential to climb into that Oscar/Isiah/Stockton discussion.

[Haymaker]

I put this together earlier intending to use it as evidence in another topic but it went another direction so im gonna leave it in here and probably delete it(the video not topic) later as its not really...about...anything. Just making a point for me:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li6sA5DTHCg


Penny Hardaway probably had Kobes footwork if not better....and something along the lines of Lebrons passing. He didnt quite have Wades finishing but he was trouble going to the rim.

I thought he was overrated in his prime but he would probably be better now than he was then.

Good example of a less popular player who can hang with the all time greats in a few respects.

And because of it I ask....which of these guards do you think a healthy Penny can replace and make the team they had at the time better?


Lebron
Kobe
Deron
Wade
Chris paul
Tmac
VC
Iverson
Pierce
Melo
Nash
Westbrook
Arenas
Ray Allen
Derrick Rose

Points included because...though history doesnt seem to remember it that way...Penny Hardaway was flat out a point guard until he fell off. He just happened to be 6'7''. But he was a legit all the time point guard.

How many of those guys can you see Penny standing in for and making a team better? Im thinking...9 of them. That doesnt mean I think Penny is better than 9 of them. But I think Penny on 9 of their teams...makes those team possibly improve.

Hard to say how much....but unselfishness and passing really do rub off when your star has as much as Penny did. I cant see many others as talented as he taking 15 shots a game.

Penny could probably have scored 22-25 a night just living in the post.

The longer I get from 1995 hearing my friends claim hes better than Jordan the more I can respect what he brought to the game.

I will still...never...ever...rank him ahead of Grant Hill though.

"Something along the lines of Lebron's passing" No. He was as good or even better passer than Lebron.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes id say so to be honest but I didnt want this to become a Lebron vs Penny thing.

[Clifton]

I'm sad I wasn't born a decade earlier. I missed a great decade in the 90s. Highlights do not convey Hill and Penny - which I assume, because I've never found videos of them to be that cool. (I love(d) both these guys as older players though in Phoenix.) (Pippen is another guy who I just can't see the appeal of having not been there for his prime.) A real appreciation of these guys can only be had by watching them a few times a year plus playoffs for a span of years. The same is true of Brandon Roy and Paul Pierce, my favorite players of the era I did get to watch. (Chris Paul too.) Or the Pistons of that decade, especially in 04. Can't convey how cool they were in a mix.

You can convey AI or Irving or Vince Carter or Wade in a mix though. I wonder what this will mean for the legacies of players who play after the YouTube era.

[Jacks3]

If he improves those teams, he's obviously a better player...

And I think he has a top 25-30 peak in NBA history, so its not crazy to say.

[necya]

i have around 200 of his games on DVD, if i could make a mix of his highlights cause it's always the same footage we can see on youtube.
unfortunately, we never got the chance to see prime penny.
who in the league, was able to play PG and SG position at first team all-nba level ?

btw, i have a game where he has 6 dunks, i just wondering if someone can recall a guard having a lot of dunks in the same game ? of course i think about MJ but while i have around 600 of his games, i don't have watched them all...maybe Kobe ?

[NBASTATMAN]

Blaze do the same for Ghill :applause:

[tikay0]

Favorite players of all time:

1a) T-MAC (Orlando)
1b) Penny
2) Rose

[stevieming]

I am a bit Penny biased but i did my best :P

With that being said i would take Penny over anybody up there but Lebron... even if it meant less success, i liked him that much, i wouldnt mind the eye candy, his game was so damn smooth, that postgame and footwork was just ridicilous (felt better than Kobes footwork to me, it was kindof quicker).... then the rest was alot like Lebron, that length, athleticism, could score, rebound, pass...

If lebron had Penny's post game from day one, then he would have won the chip in Cleveland and MJ would be crying in his cereal at losing his GOAT status...

Penny's post game is sick....

Also I rate Penny's passing ability higher than Lebron's. Lebron actually makes very simple, easy passes because the key defense keys in on him so much. He rarely creates something out of nothing in terms of passes ala Steve Nash.

Penny could really pass as well....

[Rab]

Penny was one of my favorite players. He was an awesome combination of size, agility, athleticism, footwork, ball handling, and vision. He could really do it all on the court. He did have the potential to be mentioned up there with the greats at his position, and we never got to see everything he could've been. He was one of the most entertaining players in the league.

[NBASTATMAN]

If lebron had Penny's post game from day one, then he would have won the chip in Cleveland and MJ would be crying in his cereal at losing his GOAT status...
..



Lebron would still be in Cleveland.

Penny with the rock in his hands was Magic.. Too bad he got hurt..

[mateoboz]

I really miss watching Penny play. It's a shame he didn't have a full, injury-free career. I would have loved to have seen how it would have panned out and to have seen him play against Kobe, A.I., T-Mac, Pierce, Francis, Vince as those guys were becoming superstars.

[pauk]

Sorry Kblaze, but i have to reply on this one.


If lebron had Penny's post game from day one, then he would have won the chip in Cleveland and MJ would be crying in his cereal at losing his GOAT status...

Lebron didnt have problems scoring at all in Cleveland with no post game, he just faced you up and blew by you, as simple as that...... however, his teammates...... that was the problem behind no championship, how cool his footwork looked in the post with his back to the basket would not helped his team win a championship unless that meant 40 ppg on much higher FG% than he had, probably more assists to or something... :P even that would not be a guarantee considering the supporting cast bottleneck


Also I rate Penny's passing ability higher than Lebron's. Lebron actually makes very simple, easy passes because the key defense keys in on him so much. He rarely creates something out of nothing in terms of passes ala Steve Nash.

Penny could really pass as well....

You are entitled to your own opinion and i respect that, its no a delusional opinion or something Penny had great passing/vision, you could argue that, but i disagree... for me he is right there behind Lebron & Bird though (i have just seen way to much from both Bird & Lebron in that department and they did it for so long)... at best i think Penny is right up there with them in that department.... but better? Nah.... Penny would have to reach around Magic Johnson passing ability level for us to unquestionably say he had better passing ability than Bird/Lebron...

[unbreakable]

Penny Hardaway probably had Kobes footwork if not better...

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

KBLAZE with the all time trolling!

:applause:

[unbreakable]

for me he is right there behind Lebron & Bird though (i have just seen way to much from both Bird & Lebron in that department)

:roll:

Are you implying Lebron is a better passer than Bird was?

:roll:

[pauk]

:roll:

Are you implying Lebron is a better passer than Bird was?

:roll:

Out of respect for the OP, i will not answer that.... it will derail the thread massively.

[pauk]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

KBLAZE with the all time trolling!

:applause:

You obviously didnt see enough of Penny...

[unbreakable]

this ni66a pauk.. arent you like 20? aint no way in hell you seen penny. i had his damn shoes in middle school so i know me some penny.

but kobe is up there with hakeem , kareem and mj when it comes to footwork. aint nobody else up on that mountain top and penny sure aint one of em.

[Kblaze8855]

You forgot Mchale....

And really...if we had complete every game highlights from even....Gary Payton...you would see just about everything Kobe ever did in the post.

[kNicKz]

Another player that isn't treated well by time

[9512]

I always thought Penny was a combo of Magic, Bird, and Jordan all into one player.

Athletic, smart, great footwork, devastating 1 v 1 skills, great vision, great ball handling. I wore #1 when I played for my junior high team in honor of Penny.

[Whoah10115]

Considering how many people put Stockton and Kidd high in those talks its not impossible. Dude was all nba first team over both of them. Kidd wasnt quite prime kidd but Penny never got to prime Penny himself. And Stockton was just starting to slow but it didnt show much.

Penny had the potential to climb into that Oscar/Isiah/Stockton discussion.



Well, I take a prime Kidd over Stockton...if he'd learn to shoot just a tad bit better or shot just a little less...or if he simply ever had a better team, I might rank Kidd 2nd right now. Robertson, I'm having more and more trouble ranking over the years. The more I watch old Robertson the more I get upset, as he refuses to let anyone else do anything else. Not sure where I'd rank him, but his overall greatness is overrated, as his impact was not near the equal of his stats. But that's another topic.


Along with the injury, it bothered me that the Magic were so obsessed with making him a SG. Awful.

[kNIOKAS]

Nice mix, but if you say he had close to Kobe's footwork and Lebron's passing, what else is there to add... Duncan's rebounding? :wtf:

[Holy Random]

Loved those two steals and quick assists he got while lying on his back

[Norcaliblunt]

Kevin Johnson's prime craps all over Penny's.

[Kblaze8855]

Nice mix, but if you say he had close to Kobe's footwork and Lebron's passing, what else is there to add... Duncan's rebounding?

No...but the first two are no exaggeration. I'll see what I can do to support that with some things not in the video....

[Kblaze8855]

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9765/pennypost.gif

And Penny didnt have Hakeem to teach him

[Kblaze8855]

And Magic was saying watching Penny was like looking into a mirror 10 years before he said the same of Lebron:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7229/pennynolook.gif

[PJR]

Still remember those back to back 40 spots against the Heat in the playoffs. Penny was a sure fire hall of famer. Damn injuries.

[IGOTGAME]

You forgot Mchale....

And really...if we had complete every game highlights from even....Gary Payton...you would see just about everything Kobe ever did in the post.


Still doesn't make him as skilled a post player. There is much more to being a post player than just having the moves. You gotta be able to seal, create leverage etc...I've seen 215-220 pound Kobe post up legit power forwards and just back them down for left handed hooks. Penny was a great player and very skilled, he wasn't Kobe in the post.

Sad part about this is that with all the Kobe highlights out there, no one has come close to doing lobes post game justice. I think it because most don't understand what makes his post game impressive on an all time level. Would love to see someone go back and make a good Kobe post game mix. Would really add value to the basketball library on YouTube.

[Kblaze8855]

I've seen Drexler score on more bigmen in the post than either of them.....of course it isn't just the moves but penny could do it all. He was guarded by bigger players too because he was a mismatch on every point. Kobe is not gonna score on the same player at a higher rate then penny at his peak. Not around the basket.

Some who could didn't have the same variety either of them did. Just stuck to a few key moves. Dantley. King.

But far as total package? Penny competes with most anyone.

Especially when you bring post passing into it. He wasn't magic....but nobody was magic

[IGOTGAME]

Utah jazz front office guy posted this a couple weeks ago. Gives very detailed post up stats for the year.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AmfdINmLntkUdEtkb0JQVVBtMTFUSzhZTTRFZDBMMm c#gid=0

He has been the best post up player in the league for a few years IMO. It just isn't what's best for the way these teams have constructed.

[Kblaze8855]

considering the attempts isn't that something like people who shoot great from 3 because they take 1 a game?

not to suggest Kobe isn't arguably number 1 because he is...... I just don't know that the numbers there are why.

He's a bit of a relic. not many are coming along these days who seem to value that part of the game. Al Jefferson aside how many great post players are under 30?

Save us Greg Monroe.....

[Pointguard]

Great Video. I too always like him but liked Grant Hill a little better.

[pauk]

this ni66a pauk.. arent you like 20? aint no way in hell you seen penny. i had his damn shoes in middle school so i know me some penny.

but kobe is up there with hakeem , kareem and mj when it comes to footwork. aint nobody else up on that mountain top and penny sure aint one of em.

That was long time ago, why do you believe i am not older than that or seen Penny... Because i like to joke around in this forum and english is my 5th language and because i absolutely adore Lebrons game? :)

Penny, Reggie, Jordan (etc.) and ofcourse VHS, Commodore 64, Amiga, NES, Snes, Sega Genesis, Van Damme, Arnold, Fresh Prince, 100 mhz/8mb ram computers and so on was my childhood. I have seen as much of Penny live as internationally possible (all NBA games were not broadcasted), but soon as www.pontel.com came it allowed me to catch up with anything i didnt want to miss.

My father is also an avid basketball (Celtics fan) fan, who played pro ball in his time in Croatia, he introduced me to basketball & NBA, you cant imagine how many VHS tapes he has of the 80s Celtics (and ofcourse other games), am a huge Larry Bird fan.

[Kblaze8855]

Great Video. I too always like him but liked Grant Hill a little better.

As you should. While Penny was getting overrated on a team that had everything going for it Hill was struggling on the Pistons. Swap the two and id say the Magic win a ring. The Pistons wouldnt get any worse...but I think the Magic get better.

[Whoah10115]

As you should. While Penny was getting overrated on a team that had everything going for it Hill was struggling on the Pistons. Swap the two and id say the Magic win a ring. The Pistons wouldnt get any worse...but I think the Magic get better.



Who is playing PG? Grant Hill?


Penny is the better open-court team player. That's how the Orlando offense ran. He found Shaq a lot down the court. Grant Hill would slow it down more. Maybe it'd work, but it wouldn't suit the team as it was constructed to play. I don't think he makes them better.


And Penny was a better defender than Hill was back then.

[unbreakable]

Kobe is not gonna score on the same player at a higher rate then penny at his peak. Not around the basket.


:facepalm

kobe is bigger, stronger, longer, and much more dominant in the post than penny could imagine, yet penny is gonna score more ?

you on dat der koolaid, blaze.

[Kblaze8855]

Who is playing PG? Grant Hill?


Penny is the better open-court team player. That's how the Orlando offense ran. He found Shaq a lot down the court. Grant Hill would slow it down more. Maybe it'd work, but it wouldn't suit the team as it was constructed to play. I don't think he makes them better.


And Penny was a better defender than Hill was back then.

Yes id put Grant at point. He was great there for a year and change on the Pistons. And they had other ball handlers depending on the year. He would be fine. And I dont think he and Shaq butt heads the same way over time. He would probably feed Shaqs ego if anything.



kobe is bigger, stronger, longer, and much more dominant in the post than penny could imagine, yet penny is gonna score more ?

you on dat der koolaid, blaze.


At least 2 of those assumptions id question...but especially the "much more dominant" part. People credit Kobe for more post scoring than he does. He likely could be a dominant post scorer but he spent vast stretches of his career not making any attempt to do so. Hes doing it more as he ages...but hes not posting up as much as a lot of guards/forwards.

There is a stat up above showing that while he scores at a high rate in the post...hes not even among the top people attempting shots there. Not even tops among non bigmen. He picks his spots and take advantage when he can. As he should...Kobe is a well rounded offensive player. The times hes dominated in the post are few. Hes done it. He doesnt do it for long periods of time. Hes more...skilled...than dominant.

Same with Penny. Hes never done it at a rate I find hard to see Penny doing. Shit Melo is down there doing work guarded often by 4s and 5s. With all D team bigmen on him in the olympics still operating. And I wouldnt call him dominant either.

Given an equal opposing player I dont think Kobe would score THAT much more than even Scottie Pippen in the post. Or Drexler(Who I believe Kenny smith said was the best post up guard he played).

Kobe is on the short list. But Penny is on it too. I dont think Penny is just...better. I think they are close enough to talk about. Penny abused guards and swingmen at the same basic rate Kobe does. If Kobe can do work on bigmen better....worth looking into. But it isnt a Kobe is up here...and Penny is waaaaaaaaaaaaay down here...kinda thing.