Dirk is better than KG.

[westsideozzie]

Watching this Laker game made me realize that Dirk has been a great scorer and go to in the league. Sure he can be a defensive liability, but overall he's been a superior player than Garnett. The Garnett vs Duncan debate is silly, mainly because Duncan has been markedly better. But I have to give the nod to Dirk on this matchup

[DirkNowitzki41]

whats new?

[Donnybrook]

You don't get points for defense. Despite Dirk being a better scorer, KG has more overall impact, and always has. They're both great players, but Dirk is quiet when he isn't scoring or in rhythm.

[creepingdeath]

Watching this Laker game made me realize that Dirk has been a great scorer and go to in the league. Sure he can be a defensive liability, but overall he's been a superior player than Garnett. The Garnett vs Duncan debate is silly, mainly because Duncan has been markedly better. But I have to give the nod to Dirk on this matchup
Regardless of the same old, same old KG vs Dirk debate.. What is this? 2002?

[JohnnySic]

No. Not very close either.

[atljonesbro]

Call me when KG can carry a team like 2011 Dirk.

[PP34Deuce]

For the next 2 years I'm taking KG. He will always hustle, play great team Defense and very solid Post defense while giving you an occasional 25 point game.

[PJR]

No. Not very close either.

Um, it's definitely close. Don't be stupid.

You can't go wrong with either. You got Dirk's take over ability as a scorer, while being the ultimate stretch 4, single handedly providing spacing for teammates.

Or KG's all around play, masterful help defense.


I'll lean towards Garnett if all things are equal, but it's close.

[brandonislegend]

Call me when KG can carry a team like 2011 Dirk.

Not many players could have done what he did, that was incredible.

[Pointguard]

Call me when KG can carry a team like 2011 Dirk.
Dirk didn't really carry that team. When their defensive anchor left that team, Dirk couldn't win a playoff game the next year. Carrying a team is like when KG lead his team in rebounds, points and be their defensive anchor in the regluar season and post season and finals like KG did. Dirk does his part of the pie which is score. Without Chandler they didn't win a playoff game because defense is a big piece of the pie. Marion and Kidd had the best defensive run probably ever in a playoff run in that year, both stopping two all time greats. Kidd also lead the team in assist and steals. Terry was their most accurate shooter over their last three wins. Tyson Chandler was their defensive anchor and lead the team in rebounds. Dirk was impressive and had big impact but lets not get carried away. You can't carry a team by scoring alone. Durant is a much bigger scorer than Dirk ever was. And he doesn't carry a team - he leads them but he doesn't carry them.

Besides why is OP saying this in a game Kobe will likely out clutch Dirk anyway?

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Call me when KG can carry a team like 2011 Dirk.
Call me when Dirk can anchor one of the best defenses in NBA history while being his teams best rebounder, scorer, and 4th quarter scorer in the Playoffs.

[atljonesbro]

Call me when Dirk can anchor one of the best defenses in NBA history while being his teams best rebounder, scorer, and 4th quarter scorer in the Playoffs.
Call me when you start hating on KG for team hopping for rings like you do to LeBron.

[atljonesbro]

Dirk didn't really carry that team. When their defensive anchor left that team, Dirk couldn't win a playoff game the next year. Carrying a team is like when KG lead his team in rebounds, points and be their defensive anchor in the regluar season and post season and finals like KG did. Dirk does his part of the pie which is score. Without Chandler they didn't win a playoff game because defense is a big piece of the pie. Marion and Kidd had the best defensive run probably ever in a playoff run in that year, both stopping two all time greats. Kidd also lead the team in assist and steals. Terry was their most accurate shooter over their last three wins. Tyson Chandler was their defensive anchor and lead the team in rebounds. Dirk was impressive and had big impact but lets not get carried away. You can't carry a team by scoring alone. Durant is a much bigger scorer than Dirk ever was. And he doesn't carry a team - he leads them but he doesn't carry them.

Besides why is OP saying this in a game Kobe will likely out clutch Dirk anyway?
Please. If you replace Dirk with Lamarcus Aldridge it's an easy first round exit for them, maybe a sweep.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Call me when you start hating on KG for team hopping for rings like you do to LeBron.
When have I ever hated on Lebron? Please find one post of me ever saying anything negative about Lebron and then get back to me.

And KG was traded to a team that won 24 games the previous season. And he didn't even want to leave the Timberwolves in the first place.

[atljonesbro]

When have I ever hated on Lebron? Please find one post of me ever saying anything negative about Lebron and then get back to me.

And KG was traded to a team that won 24 games the previous season. And he didn't even want to leave the Timberwolves in the first place.
A large portion of the forum hates LeBron for that. KG couldn't win a ship with the wolves, so he joined up with 2 other stars of the time so he could actually win one. While on the other hand Dirk stayed loyal, persevered, and won with a 2nd option of Jason Terry. Kg could NEVER dream of that.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

A large portion of the forum hates LeBron for that. KG couldn't win a ship with the wolves, so he joined up with 2 other stars of the time so he could actually win one. While on the other hand Dirk stayed loyal, persevered, and won with a 2nd option of Jason Terry. Kg could NEVER dream of that.
I couldn't care less about what a large part of the forum does.

Dirk played for a great organization who surrounded him with great teams throughout his career. KG's best teammate in Minnesota was a late prime Sam Cassell who wasn't even healthy in the Playoffs (and missed the WCF), and he still went on to take them to the conference finals where they took the Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton Lakers to 6 with KG playing PG.

And again, he didn't leave the Wolves to hop on a championship contender, he left them because they wanted to go in a different direction, he was as loyal as he could be to them. Even with Pierce and Allen on the Celtics they were in no way the universal favorites to win the title, they were looked at as a team with 3 good players, a terrible bench, and no competent PG or C.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

A large portion of the forum hates LeBron for that. KG couldn't win a ship with the wolves, so he joined up with 2 other stars of the time so he could actually win one. While on the other hand Dirk stayed loyal, persevered, and won with a 2nd option of Jason Terry. Kg could NEVER dream of that.

Minnesota wanted to get rid of KG.
Cleveland wanted to keep LeBron.

I thought I'd spell out the difference in case you are just stupid instead of being an agenda-driven bitch.

[creepingdeath]

Dirk didn't really carry that team. When their defensive anchor left that team, Dirk couldn't win a playoff game the next year. Carrying a team is like when KG lead his team in rebounds, points and be their defensive anchor in the regluar season and post season and finals like KG did. Dirk does his part of the pie which is score. Without Chandler they didn't win a playoff game because defense is a big piece of the pie. Marion and Kidd had the best defensive run probably ever in a playoff run in that year, both stopping two all time greats. Kidd also lead the team in assist and steals. Terry was their most accurate shooter over their last three wins. Tyson Chandler was their defensive anchor and lead the team in rebounds. Dirk was impressive and had big impact but lets not get carried away. You can't carry a team by scoring alone. Durant is a much bigger scorer than Dirk ever was. And he doesn't carry a team - he leads them but he doesn't carry them.

Besides why is OP saying this in a game Kobe will likely out clutch Dirk anyway?
You are so full of sh*t. Marion and Kidd had the best defensive run of all time? :roll:
Dirk had the 3rd most 4th quarter scoring average of all time. He was the finals leading rebounder of both teams. He played better man-to-man defense than Chandler for most games (see Aldridge's scoring against him compared to his scoring when Dirk covered him). While obviously Chandler was the defensive anchor, Dirk did so much more than just scoring.

Oh, and said Kobe got vastly outplayed in the semi-finals by Dirk. It was not even close. And the reason for Dirk not winning a single game in the year after the championship? Well, for starters, how about that almost the complete team was gone? Three of the finals starters?

[[GR]]

When have I ever hated on Lebron? Please find one post of me ever saying anything negative about Lebron and then get back to me.

And KG was traded to a team that won 24 games the previous season. And he didn't even want to leave the Timberwolves in the first place.
KG didn't want the trade, until Ray was traded there. That convinced him.


Technically, Lebron was traded too.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

']KG didn't want the trade, until Ray was traded there. That convinced him.


Technically, Lebron was traded too.
I'm not comparing KG to Lebron because neither of them did anything wrong to me. But the above poster said KG left Minnesota because he realized he couldn't win there, which could not be further from the truth. He was traded from Minnesota because the team wanted to go in a different direction, not him.

[PP34Deuce]

A large portion of the forum hates LeBron for that. KG couldn't win a ship with the wolves, so he joined up with 2 other stars of the time so he could actually win one. While on the other hand Dirk stayed loyal, persevered, and won with a 2nd option of Jason Terry. Kg could NEVER dream of that.

MIA situation is COMPLETELY different than BOS.

MIA get together... Ages are 25,25, and 27. Prime athletic and skill years while having 2 guys as top 7 players and a top 20-25.

BOS gets together, Ages are 31,30, and 32. Arguably between top 15-25 players. Half step out their prime but work together great.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I would take Dirk.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

']KG didn't want the trade, until Ray was traded there. That convinced him.


Technically, Lebron was traded too.

Minnesota gave Garnett the choice as a way of thanking him for being a great servant to the club as a whole.
Cleveland got a trade exception and some picks as Miami's way of saying "thanks for the best player in the league, SUCKERS"

Now that we've arrived at the argument again, let's revisit why Dirk is not better than KG.

Help defence: KG
Man-to-man defence: KG
Rebounding: KG
Passing: KG
3pt shooting: Dirk
Midrange: wash
finishing: wash
Athleticism: KG
Leadership/intangibles: KG

Count em

[DMAVS41]

You are so full of sh*t. Marion and Kidd had the best defensive run of all time? :roll:
Dirk had the 3rd most 4th quarter scoring average of all time. He was the finals leading rebounder of both teams. He played better man-to-man defense than Chandler for most games (see Aldridge's scoring against him compared to his scoring when Dirk covered him). While obviously Chandler was the defensive anchor, Dirk did so much more than just scoring.

Oh, and said Kobe got vastly outplayed in the semi-finals by Dirk. It was not even close. And the reason for Dirk not winning a single game in the year after the championship? Well, for starters, how about that almost the complete team was gone? Three of the finals starters?

Don't even bother. Somehow having the most clutch playoff run of all time...or at least since MJ retired...while winning a title without another all nba or all star player...while going through one of the toughest roads...if not the toughest road to a title in the last 30 years....is...wait for it....

Because of Tyson Chandler...a guy that couldn't even average a double double

Standard...

[atljonesbro]

Minnesota gave Garnett the choice as a way of thanking him for being a great servant to the club as a whole.
Cleveland got a trade exception and some picks as Miami's way of saying "thanks for the best player in the league, SUCKERS"

Now that we've arrived at the argument again, let's revisit why Dirk is not better than KG.

Help defence: KG
Man-to-man defence: KG
Rebounding: KG
Passing: KG
3pt shooting: Dirk
Midrange: wash
finishing: wash
Athleticism: KG
Leadership/intangibles: KG

Count em
Sorry, your in analysis crap doesn't work for me. Here's my analysis: If I want to win a championship I pick Dirk because he needs less help and can take over a game at will. He proved that in 2011. KG can NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to taking over a game like Dirk. Dirk is one of those rare players who are: Loyal, Dedicated, Humble, Hard Working, Motivated, and has all of the qualities that he can take a team all the way with a crappy second option like Terry. KG proved he couldnt do that.

[Phiology]

Minnesota gave Garnett the choice as a way of thanking him for being a great servant to the club as a whole.
Cleveland got a trade exception and some picks as Miami's way of saying "thanks for the best player in the league, SUCKERS"

Now that we've arrived at the argument again, let's revisit why Dirk is not better than KG.

Help defence: KG
Man-to-man defence: KG
Rebounding: KG
Passing: KG
3pt shooting: Dirk
Midrange: wash
finishing: wash
Athleticism: KG
Leadership/intangibles: KG

Count em

Help defence: KG
Man-to-man defence: KG
Rebounding: KG
Passing: D

[Just2McFly]

Call me when KG can carry a team like 2011 Dirk.
What was your phone number from 98-07?

[JellyBean]

No he isn't. Dirk is a better shooter than KG. But overall player, its KG. U gotta play both ends of the floor, Dirk does not give you that. KG will. KG is a better leader than Dirk. If we are talking about shooting and just plain offense, yeah Dirk is better. But overall player, hands down KG is your guy.

[atljonesbro]

What was your phone number from 98-07?
How many rings did he win in those years?

[Just2McFly]

How many rings did he win in those years?
How many teammates of his stepped in playoff time like he did?

[creepingdeath]

How many teammates of his stepped in playoff time like he did?
That goes for both these guys.

[Just2McFly]

That goes for both these guys.
wtf does that even mean?

I'm saying KG has carried his team like Dirk did and more, but didnt win a ring due to lack of support? How does that go both ways when Dirk has always had the better teams when both were in the West?

[atljonesbro]

wtf does that even mean?

I'm saying KG has carried his team like Dirk did and more, but didnt win a ring due to lack of support? How does that go both ways when Dirk has always had the better teams when both were in the West?
Jason Terry was his second option in 2011 :facepalm

[Just2McFly]

Jason Terry was his second option in 2011 :facepalm
and he played well.:wtf: Extremely well in fact. Along with Kidd,Marion,Barera,etc...

KG had Sprewell and Cassell.:facepalm

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Jason Terry was his second option in 2011 :facepalm
And Tyson Chandler was his defensive anchor.

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

and he played well.:wtf: Extremely well in fact. Along with Kidd,Marion,Barera,etc...

KG had Sprewell and Cassell.:facepalm
Who didn't even play in the WCF.

[creepingdeath]

wtf does that even mean?

I'm saying KG has carried his team like Dirk did and more, but didnt win a ring due to lack of support? How does that go both ways when Dirk has always had the better teams when both were in the West?
Dirk clearly had better teams for most of his career. However, for most of his runs, those teams were a) not clear championship material, and b) did Dirk's teammates not step up for a lot of his runs. Terry is a great example for that. He had a history of making a disappearing act in the years prior to 2011.

Why are KG fans so sensitive? I'm not even railing on Garnett, just putting things into focus.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I think Garnett was a better player in the sense that he always had a larger influence over the game as a whole - but Dirk was a unique talent and I can see why some would take him over Garnett.

[Legends66NBA7]

and he played well.:wtf: Extremely well in fact. Along with Kidd,Marion,Barera,etc...

KG had Sprewell and Cassell.:facepalm

Not sure what the facepalm is for, since Sprewell and Cassell both played very well in the playoffs. Infact, both played much better as individuals in 2004 in the playoffs than any of Nowitzki's teammates in 2011 did individually.


Who didn't even play in the WCF.

Cassell did play in the WCF.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

[QUOTE=Phiology]Help defence: KG
Man-to-man defence: KG
Rebounding: KG
Passing: D

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Not sure what the facepalm is for, since Sprewell and Cassell both played very well in the playoffs. Infact, both played much better as individuals in 2004 in the playoffs than any of Nowitzki's teammates in 2011 did individually.



Cassell did play in the WCF.
He played like 2 games in the series. And he was hobbled in those games. They had Derrick Martin starting at PG for most of the series (although KG took over most of the ball handling responsibilities).

[Legends66NBA7]

He played like 2 games in the series. And he was hobbled in those games. They had Derrick Martin starting at PG for most of the series (although KG took over most of the ball handling responsibilities).

I know.

I should have clarified into that from what you just said, but saying he didn't play wasn't true.

If Cassell was healthy, they probably would have won the series.

[Segatti]

Completely different players.

[ProfessorMurder]

[QUOTE=Phiology]Midrange: D

[Just2McFly]

Not sure what the facepalm is for, since Sprewell and Cassell both played very well in the playoffs. Infact, both played much better as individuals in 2004 in the playoffs than any of Nowitzki's teammates in 2011 did individually.



Cassell did play in the WCF.

They did play great but Dirk had a wealth of depth on his team. A bunch of specialist. Dirk had perimeter defenders in Kidd,Stevenson and Marion. He had a defensive anchor in Chandler.

KG had Spree,Cassell,Wally and some hustle players. Just god awful depth on that squad in comparison to Dirk 2011 team.

[Djahjaga]

Completely different players.

Therefore we cannot make judgements about them or debate their overall impact on a basketball game.

:rolleyes:

[Segatti]

Therefore we cannot make judgements about them or debate their overall impact on a basketball game.

:rolleyes:

Therefore nothing, don't distort what I said

[ballup]

Watching this Laker game made me realize that Dirk has been a great scorer and go to in the league. Sure he can be a defensive liability, but overall he's been a superior player than Garnett. The Garnett vs Duncan debate is silly, mainly because Duncan has been markedly better. But I have to give the nod to Dirk on this matchup
So what you saying is defense doesn't matter. Ok.

[Djahjaga]

Therefore nothing, don't distort what I said

So what were you saying? You offered nothing to the discourse. It definitely seemed like you argument was that they can't be compared because they're so different.

[Just2McFly]

Dirk clearly had better teams for most of his career. However, for most of his runs, those teams were a) not clear championship material, and b) did Dirk's teammates not step up for a lot of his runs. Terry is a great example for that. He had a history of making a disappearing act in the years prior to 2011.

Why are KG fans so sensitive? I'm not even railing on Garnett, just putting things into focus.

There is fundamental difference between having teammates who do not step up, and having to carry a cast of misfits the whole way.

There is no sensitivity, and you do not understand the origin of my argument. I'm making the claim that in terms of carrying, KG has had to do way more than Dirk ever has. Which I cannot see anyone debating this.

[creepingdeath]

There is fundamental difference between having teammates who do not step up, and having to carry a cast of misfits the whole way.

There is no sensitivity, and you do not understand the origin of my argument. I'm making the claim that in terms of carrying, KG has had to do way more than Dirk ever has. Which I cannot see anyone debating this.
Who disputed that for KG's 2001-2007 years?

[red1]

dirk has really come into his own these past few seasons but I would still take kg

[DMAVS41]

There is fundamental difference between having teammates who do not step up, and having to carry a cast of misfits the whole way.

There is no sensitivity, and you do not understand the origin of my argument. I'm making the claim that in terms of carrying, KG has had to do way more than Dirk ever has. Which I cannot see anyone debating this.

Of course KG played with much less on the twolves most years.

But the results show that. It's not like they had similar success. Dirk led teams won 50 or more games like 11 straight years...made the wcf 3 times. finals twice. and a title. that kind of success is something KG never touched as the leader of a team.

now, before you say anything. i'm not knocking KG for that. he was in a terrible position. i totally agree that KG had much less help. however, again, it's not like the level of success is anywhere remotely even.

the problem with any of these debates is that people just assume two basic things that are actually dead wrong:

1. KG can't carry a team offensively and isn't good in crunch time. it is true that he's not on the Dirk level in that regard, but he's actually a much better crunch time player and overall offensive force than people give him credit for.

2. Dirk isn't only a shooter/scorer. Just not true. Dirk is actually one of the best defensive rebounding power forwards of all time. Since about the 04 season...his defense has not been a liability at all aside from extenuating circumstances that every player faces in terms of matchups. People forget that Dirk played Nellie ball until 05...defense wasn't even coache or asked of him. He played his role on those teams. There are also things that Dirk brings to the table that people seem to ignore...even though they might be his most valuable assets. Having a 7 footer that can shoot the ball from 3 as well as he does just causes so many matchup problems. Put a big on him and he'll blow by or stretch the floor...put a smaller player on him and he'll post him up and draw doubles. Run high screen and rolls and the help man literally can't hedge because of Dirk's range at the three point line...I could go on.


The ultimate point of all of these endless debates is that playing the game of basketball is more of an art than a science...and while stats are really important as is overall play, they don't tell the whole story.

If defense was as important as people think it is here...and it is really important, then guys like Dirk and Nash and Magic and a whole host of other players just wouldn't have done what they did.

And I'll say it again. The notion that Dirk is a terrible defender has not been true for almost a decade now.

[DMAVS41]

dirk has really come into his own these past few seasons but I would still take kg

I don't mean to jump on you, but it's comments like these that do Dirk's career a huge disservice.

Dirk was destroying teams in the playoffs all the way back to 02 (KG's wolves)...certainly in 03 (wcf)...and in 06 the Dirk led Mavs were the only team to beat the Spurs in 3 years of playoffs.

[Djahjaga]

Of course KG played with much less on the twolves most years.

But the results show that. It's not like they had similar success. Dirk led teams won 50 or more games like 11 straight years...made the wcf 3 times. finals twice. and a title. that kind of success is something KG never touched as the leader of a team.

now, before you say anything. i'm not knocking KG for that. he was in a terrible position. i totally agree that KG had much less help. however, again, it's not like the level of success is anywhere remotely even.

the problem with any of these debates is that people just assume two basic things that are actually dead wrong:

1. KG can't carry a team offensively and isn't good in crunch time. it is true that he's not on the Dirk level in that regard, but he's actually a much better crunch time player and overall offensive force than people give him credit for.

2. Dirk isn't only a shooter/scorer. Just not true. Dirk is actually one of the best defensive rebounding power forwards of all time. Since about the 04 season...his defense has not been a liability at all aside from extenuating circumstances that every player faces in terms of matchups. People forget that Dirk played Nellie ball until 05...defense wasn't even coache or asked of him. He played his role on those teams. There are also things that Dirk brings to the table that people seem to ignore...even though they might be his most valuable assets. Having a 7 footer that can shoot the ball from 3 as well as he does just causes so many matchup problems. Put a big on him and he'll blow by or stretch the floor...put a smaller player on him and he'll post him up and draw doubles. Run high screen and rolls and the help man literally can't hedge because of Dirk's range at the three point line...I could go on.


The ultimate point of all of these endless debates is that playing the game of basketball is more of an art than a science...and while stats are really important as is overall play, they don't tell the whole story.

If defense was as important as people think it is here...and it is really important, then guys like Dirk and Nash and Magic and a whole host of other players just wouldn't have done what they did.

And I'll say it again. The notion that Dirk is a terrible defender has not been true for almost a decade now.

Not to simplify everything you just said, but would you agree with this statement:

The gap between KG's offense and Dirk's offense is smaller than the gap between KG's defense and Dirk's defense.



I think that much is at least very obvious and not debatable.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The gap between KG's offense and Dirk's offense is smaller than the gap between KG's defense and Dirk's defense.



I think that much is at least very obvious and not debatable.

The gaps may be the same but the actual weight of the gaps is not the same. You can replace what KG brought defensively a lot easier than you can replace with what Dirk brings on offense.

[DMAVS41]

Not to simplify everything you just said, but would you agree with this statement:

The gap between KG's offense and Dirk's offense is smaller than the gap between KG's defense and Dirk's defense.



I think that much is at least very obvious and not debatable.

Yes, but this is my point. I've talked about this before. If you were grading them scientifically it would be something like this.

KG is a 10 on defense/rebounding...Dirk is a 5

KG is a 8 on offense....Dirk is a 9 or 9.5

You'd get 18 vs 14.5

I'm sorry, but if anyone actually thinks KG is 20% better than Dirk...you are just objectively nuts.

Let's take a different example. What about Nash vs KG. Nash would essentially be a 1 or 2 (if we are being kind) on defense. He's literally one of the worst defensive players ever. So you are looking at a 11 or 12 if you award nash a 10 on offense..which i don't think he deserves...but you get my point.

How about Magic Johnson? Is Gary Payton better than him? I could go on and on. There are certain things that players bring to the table that defy simplistic breakdowns and measurements.

And my argument would be that Dirk has those things and that is what makes a debate that should be one sided on paper....but in reality it's a tough call.

[Halipender]

dirk is nowhere the defender KG is

[red1]

I don't mean to jump on you, but it's comments like these that do Dirk's career a huge disservice.

Dirk was destroying teams in the playoffs all the way back to 02 (KG's wolves)...certainly in 03 (wcf)...and in 06 the Dirk led Mavs were the only team to beat the Spurs in 3 years of playoffs.
Despite all of that it is perfectly fair to say that he only recently shed the soft label once and for all after winning the chip two seasons ago. Thats just the way sports work. Dirk is an unconventional big, if he never won that fmvp he never wouldve got the respect he gets now since people would write him off for not defending the way the typical star big does. Btw 2011 dirk is the best version of dirk.

[spacebump]

dirk is nowhere the defender KG is

and KG isn't even on the same planet as Dirk when it comes to offense.
People like to talk about how KG was surrounded by crap but Dirk took Dampier to the Finals.

Dirk is better. He won a title as the man and didn't need excuses. KG will never win Finals MVP.

[Halipender]

and KG isn't even on the same planet as Dirk when it comes to offense.
People like to talk about how KG was surrounded by crap but Dirk took Dampier to the Finals.

Dirk had Nash, couldnt do anything.
Dirk was always surrounded by great players, much better then KG.
Dirk won a title, thanks to tyson Chandler who covered his deficiency on defensive end.

[Djahjaga]

The gaps may be the same but the actual weight of the gaps is not the same. You can replace what KG brought defensively a lot easier than you can replace with what Dirk brings on offense.

I would say it's the other way around. Dirk is a revolutionary in terms of being a 7 foot floor spacer extreme, but if you think the advantages he brings to a team with his range can compare to the overall defensive impact of someone like Garnett, you're kidding yourself.

Look no further than the defensive anchor on Dirk's own championship team, Tyson Chandler. When he came and made them a top defensive team, you know what people said? They said he did for them what KG did for the Celtics, albeit to a (much) lesser degree.

Granted, this isn't 99 and Dirk isn't getting dunked on by perimeter players twice a month, but there is no aspect of defense where he isn't head and shoulders behind Garnett.

But even if his man-to-man D and help D were somewhat on par with Garnett's, he doesn't come close to organizing a defense like Garnett does (and he's one of the best in history in this case, so not only can Dirk not replicate it, you'd be hardpressed to find someone that would). KG had the highest on/off court +/- for the majority of his career, and that's because of his ability to take otherwise average or even terrible defensive teams and make play superior defense. A lot of that is him covering for his guys, but a lot of it is also him understanding everyone's role on offense and barking orders, telling people where to be, what to do. That's something very few people can bring to a team to the degree Garnett does.


Yes, but this is my point. I've talked about this before. If you were grading them scientifically it would be something like this.

KG is a 10 on defense/rebounding...Dirk is a 5

KG is a 8 on offense....Dirk is a 9 or 9.5

You'd get 18 vs 14.5

I'm sorry, but if anyone actually thinks KG is 20% better than Dirk...you are just objectively nuts.

Let's take a different example. What about Nash vs KG. Nash would essentially be a 1 or 2 (if we are being kind) on defense. He's literally one of the worst defensive players ever. So you are looking at a 11 or 12 if you award nash a 10 on offense..which i don't think he deserves...but you get my point.

How about Magic Johnson? Is Gary Payton better than him? I could go on and on. There are certain things that players bring to the table that defy simplistic breakdowns and measurements.

And my argument would be that Dirk has those things and that is what makes a debate that should be one sided on paper....but in reality it's a tough call.

I think I disagree.

You're right that all-time greats transcends simplistic arguments, but the examples you gave all come with qualifiers. You have to consider, like Locked_Up did, the weight of the qualities and also the impact the players' strengths and corresponding weaknesses have on his team.

For Nash and Magic, the fact that they couldn't play D wasn't nearly as important as they legendary ability to run the offense. Perimeter D from the PG position will always be less important than interior D. This is conveniently relevant to our KG/Dirk debate. You can't talk about Dirk's rebounding and then ignore his average impact on the defensive end. For certain positions, certain attributes are more important than they are for others. Dirk's ability to score on anyone, at anytime, in any scheme creates matchup problems and wins games. But there's a reason his teams didn't win until they got a stable interior defensive presence to make-up for his deficiencies as a rim protector and defensive quarterback.

In short, Garnett's skillset is more valuable to a team. I think that handily translates to him being a better player.

[Just2McFly]

Who disputed that for KG's 2001-2007 years?
the person i quoted in this thread first

[DMAVS41]

Despite all of that it is perfectly fair to say that he only recently shed the soft label once and for all after winning the chip two seasons ago. Thats just the way sports work. Dirk is an unconventional big, if he never won that fmvp he never wouldve got the respect he gets now since people would write him off for not defending the way the typical star big does. Btw 2011 dirk is the best version of dirk.

What kind of response is that? That him shedding the label means more than his actual play?

Dirk was honestly never even "soft"...but certainly has not been soft since the 05 season. People just didn't know or care.

And I disagree about 11 Dirk being the best. You give plenty of other versions of Dirk the kind of help and coaching he got in 11 and you'd see. I don't think most people understand just how good he was all the way back to 03...let alone 06.

It is all connected. Having the right team around you allows a player to play at his optimal level. Lucky players get that often in their careers....unfortunately most players just don't.

[DMAVS41]

I would say it's the other way around. Dirk is a revolutionary in terms of being a 7 foot floor spacer extreme, but if you think the advantages he brings to a team with his range can compare to the overall defensive impact of someone like Garnett, you're kidding yourself.

Look no further than the defensive anchor on Dirk's own championship team, Tyson Chandler. When he came and made them a top defensive team, you know what people said? They said he did for them what KG did for the Celtics, albeit to a (much) lesser degree.

Granted, this isn't 99 and Dirk isn't getting dunked on by perimeter players twice a month, but there is no aspect of defense where he isn't head and shoulders behind Garnett.

But even if his man-to-man D and help D were somewhat on par with Garnett's, he doesn't come close to organizing a defense like Garnett does (and he's one of the best in history in this case, so not only can Dirk not replicate it, you'd be hardpressed to find someone that would). KG had the highest on/off court +/- for the majority of his career, and that's because of his ability to take otherwise average or even terrible defensive teams and make play superior defense. A lot of that is him covering for his guys, but a lot of it is also him understanding everyone's role on offense and barking orders, telling people where to be, what to do. That's something very few people can bring to a team to the degree Garnett does.



I think I disagree.

You're right that all-time greats transcends simplistic arguments, but the examples you gave all come with qualifiers. You have to consider, like Locked_Up did, the weight of the qualities and also the impact the players' strengths and corresponding weaknesses have on his team.

For Nash and Magic, the fact that they couldn't play D wasn't nearly as important as they legendary ability to run the offense. Perimeter D from the PG position will always be less important than interior D. This is conveniently relevant to our KG/Dirk debate. You can't talk about Dirk's rebounding and then ignore his average impact on the defensive end. For certain positions, certain attributes are more important than they are for others. Dirk's ability to score on anyone, at anytime, in any scheme creates matchup problems and wins games. But there's a reason his teams didn't win until they got a stable interior defensive presence to make-up for his deficiencies as a rim protector and defensive quarterback.

In short, Garnett's skillset is more valuable to a team. I think that handily translates to him being a better player.


But you could say that about every player. Shaq only won having an all time great sg coupled with a top 5 coach of all time. Kobe has only won having the best front court in the NBA. KG only won playing with two first ballot hall of famers still playing at an elite level. Magic, Bird...on and on and on.

Yes, you need a defensive minded center like Chandler and a quality shot maker on the perimeter and quality coaching and a solid team around Dirk to win.

Are you honestly going to say that same isn't true in some form or another with every other all time great player? Look at the teams Kobe needed to win his titles. Every single title team he had was better on the court and in coaching than what Dirk had. Same with Magic. Same with Bird. Same with Lebron's Heat both in 11 when they lost and last year.

You find me other examples in the history of the game with the kind of help and coaching Dirk has had...that have won 50 11 straight seasons and had similar success...etc. You will only find it with Duncan...who has won the most with the least in NBA history.

Dirk plays a unique version of pf....he's not a center. You put Chandler next to Dirk and that solves every single problem that you could nitpick on Dirk for. I don't think that is asking so much when Kobe gets Shaq and Phil Jackson and vice versa. KG gets Allen and Pierce and Rondo. Lebron gets Wade and Bosh.

I mean come one. Dirk won in 11 going through one of the toughest roads to the title in the last 30 years with much less help than most championship squads have.

[Djahjaga]

It is all connected. Having the right team around you allows a player to play at his optimal level. Lucky players get that often in their careers....unfortunately most players just don't.

This perfectly defines KG's career, especially in comparison to players like Duncan, Kobe, and, to a lesser degree, Dirk.

KG had half the talent (before Boston) on his teams than these guys did.

[DMAVS41]

This perfectly defines KG's career, especially in comparison to players like Duncan, Kobe, and, to a lesser degree, Dirk.

KG had half the talent (before Boston) on his teams than these guys did.

Again. Nobody is disputing that.

But there has to be something to the fact that Dirk did things like get to the finals in 06 and led his 07 team to 67 wins...while KG's teams didn't do anything outside of 04.

And I get it, but then you have to look at what a guy like Lebron was doing with garbage around him.

I totally agree KG didn't have much to work with, but he also didn't do much that blows you away given what he had either.

[red1]

What kind of response is that? That him shedding the label means more than his actual play?

Dirk was honestly never even "soft"...but certainly has not been soft since the 05 season. People just didn't know or care.

And I disagree about 11 Dirk being the best. You give plenty of other versions of Dirk the kind of help and coaching he got in 11 and you'd see. I don't think most people understand just how good he was all the way back to 03...let alone 06.

It is all connected. Having the right team around you allows a player to play at his optimal level. Lucky players get that often in their careers....unfortunately most players just don't.
I have seen dirks entire career and what he did in the 2011 playoffs is undoubtedly him at his best. The reason I take kg over him is that kg is easier to build around and brings more to the table, his advantages at all of the other aspects of the game make up for the scoring advantage. It would be easier to find a scoring wing than it would be to find another big defensive anchor.

[Djahjaga]

Again. Nobody is disputing that.

But there has to be something to the fact that Dirk did things like get to the finals in 06 and led his 07 team to 67 wins...while KG's teams didn't do anything outside of 04.

And I get it, but then you have to look at what a guy like Lebron was doing with garbage around him.

I totally agree KG didn't have much to work with, but he also didn't do much that blows you away given what he had either.

The one year KG had a solid team around him, he made it to the Western Conference Finals and took the Lakers to 6 games with a hobbled Sam Cassell as his second best player (this has been mentioned before).

The 07 Mavs team was fantastic during the regular season, yeah, but if KG is going to lose points for not ever winning 67 games, Dirk has to lose points for losing in the first round with the best team in the league (regardless of the Warriors being a tough matchup for them).

If KG has the same level of talent around him (not the same players and same system) that Dirk had for his 07 team and a comparable build around him the way Dirk was built around for that team, he wouldn't get bounced in the first round. I would bet money on that hypothetical KG team to go all the way.


I'm not one of the idiots saying "it's KG and it's not even close," but I think there's a relatively clear answer, even if the players themselves are close to each other in impact and ability.

[Djahjaga]

But you could say that about every player. Shaq only won having an all time great sg coupled with a top 5 coach of all time. Kobe has only won having the best front court in the NBA. KG only won playing with two first ballot hall of famers still playing at an elite level. Magic, Bird...on and on and on.

Yes, you need a defensive minded center like Chandler and a quality shot maker on the perimeter and quality coaching and a solid team around Dirk to win.

Are you honestly going to say that same isn't true in some form or another with every other all time great player? Look at the teams Kobe needed to win his titles. Every single title team he had was better on the court and in coaching than what Dirk had. Same with Magic. Same with Bird. Same with Lebron's Heat both in 11 when they lost and last year.

You find me other examples in the history of the game with the kind of help and coaching Dirk has had...that have won 50 11 straight seasons and had similar success...etc. You will only find it with Duncan...who has won the most with the least in NBA history.

Dirk plays a unique version of pf....he's not a center. You put Chandler next to Dirk and that solves every single problem that you could nitpick on Dirk for. I don't think that is asking so much when Kobe gets Shaq and Phil Jackson and vice versa. KG gets Allen and Pierce and Rondo. Lebron gets Wade and Bosh.

I mean come one. Dirk won in 11 going through one of the toughest roads to the title in the last 30 years with much less help than most championship squads have.

No, I'm NOT some revisionist saying previous champions have won without help (though Hakeem got pretty close, I guess). But I am saying there is no one in NBA history that was gonna take some of those Minny teams much farther than KG did.

I brought up the Chandler thing because I'm saying he acted as a sort of KG-lite for that team, and it resulted in a title. Granted, Dirk played out of his mind, and I'm not saying Chandler was worth more to that team than Dirk, but I think he was harder to replace. And I definitely think what he brings correlates more closely to winning than what Dirk brought.

We repeat the whole "defense wins championships" mantra religiously, but it's clear very few actually believe it.

Edited: I said I was some revisionist idiot by accident...lol

[DMAVS41]

No, I'm NOT some revisionist saying previous champions have won without help (though Hakeem got pretty close, I guess). But I am saying there is no one in NBA history that was gonna take some of those Minny teams much farther than KG did.

I brought up the Chandler thing because I'm saying he acted as a sort of KG-lite for that team, and it resulted in a title. Granted, Dirk played out of his mind, and I'm not saying Chandler was worth more to that team than Dirk, but I think he was harder to replace. And I definitely think what he brings correlates more closely to winning than what Dirk brought.

We repeat the whole "defense wins championships" mantra religiously, but it's clear very few actually believe it.

Edited: I said I was some revisionist idiot by accident...lol


We'll just have to agree to disagree then...because I think Dirk is infinitely harder to replace than Dirk. I just think that vastly inflates the value of a player like Chandler.

Pierce, for example, is definitely more valuable than Chandler in my opinion. In 08, Pierce's game 7 against Lebron....that value just trumps what you are talking about I think.

I think defense is a huge part of winning a title. But team defense and individual defense are two completely different things. You can have a guy like Dirk at pf and still have a great defensive team without stacking a team hugely or anything like that.

I guess I don't understand why Dirk has been made into a guy that needs a lot to win...when in reality he needed much less than just about every championship team in the history of the league.

Honestly I think you are putting KG on the level of Duncan. If he were...then I would agree with what you are saying. But I'm of the opinion that Duncan is just on another level than both Dirk and KG...so I have a hard time seeing KG lead a team with Terry/Chandler as the 2nd / 3rd best player to a title...going through the likes of the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat...

But I could see Duncan doing it.

[Pointguard]

You are so full of sh*t. Marion and Kidd had the best defensive run of all time? :roll:
Well there are only two ways to look at it.

One, the Mavs were the luckiest team ever in having SG Wade and Kobe be off and Durant and Lebron be off which would basically make it a fluke run.

Two, either Kidd and Marion had the greatest defensive run.

Apparently you believe it was fluke run. Which one is it Creepy?


Dirk had the 3rd most 4th quarter scoring average of all time. He was the finals leading rebounder of both teams. He played better man-to-man defense than Chandler for most games (see Aldridge's scoring against him compared to his scoring when Dirk covered him). While obviously Chandler was the defensive anchor, Dirk did so much more than just scoring.
I never expected you to understand how Chandler plays defense. Do you know what Anchor means? If you really think Dirk is a better defender than Chandler you are so far gone, Creepy, I don't know what to think. We're talking about carrying a team. Dirk averaged 8 rebounds a game in the playoffs - that's not carrying anything. His responsibility was scoring. He took care of his piece of the pie which was distributed pretty evenly.

Even in the finals the last three games of the finals Jason Terry was much more efficient (58% from 25 of 43 shooting to Dirk's 37.5% from 24 of 64) in the last three games and was close in scoring (22 to 25.6ppg).


Oh, and said Kobe got vastly outplayed in the semi-finals by Dirk. It was not even close. And the reason for Dirk not winning a single game in the year after the championship? Well, for starters, how about that almost the complete team was gone? Three of the finals starters?
Would this really matter if you carried the team?

[DMAVS41]

Well there are only two ways to look at it.

One, the Mavs were the luckiest team ever in having SG Wade and Kobe be off and Durant and Lebron be off which would basically make it a fluke run.

Two, either Kidd and Marion had the greatest defensive run.

Apparently you believe it was fluke run. Which one is it Creepy?

I never expected you to understand how Chandler plays defense. Do you know what Anchor means? If you really think Dirk is a better defender than Chandler you are so far gone, Creepy, I don't know what to think. We're talking about carrying a team. Dirk averaged 8 rebounds a game in the playoffs - that's not carrying anything. His responsibility was scoring. He took care of his piece of the pie which was distributed pretty evenly.

Even in the finals the last three games of the finals Jason Terry was much more efficient (58% from 25 of 43 shooting to Dirk's 37.5% from 24 of 64) in the last three games and was close in scoring (22 to 25.6ppg).

Would this really matter if you carried the team?


It never ceases to amaze me how under-rated Dirk really is.

[Djahjaga]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then...because I think Dirk is infinitely harder to replace than Dirk. I just think that vastly inflates the value of a player like Chandler.

Pierce, for example, is definitely more valuable than Chandler in my opinion. In 08, Pierce's game 7 against Lebron....that value just trumps what you are talking about I think.

I think defense is a huge part of winning a title. But team defense and individual defense are two completely different things. You can have a guy like Dirk at pf and still have a great defensive team without stacking a team hugely or anything like that.

I guess I don't understand why Dirk has been made into a guy that needs a lot to win...when in reality he needed much less than just about every championship team in the history of the league.

Honestly I think you are putting KG on the level of Duncan. If he were...then I would agree with what you are saying. But I'm of the opinion that Duncan is just on another level than both Dirk and KG...so I have a hard time seeing KG lead a team with Terry/Chandler as the 2nd / 3rd best player to a title...going through the likes of the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat...

But I could see Duncan doing it.


I'm fine with us disagreeing :cheers:

But I do want to clear some things up. Regarding the difference between individual and team defense, I agree. What I'm saying is that KG impacts your team defense on such a level that it's almost irreplaceable. What he does for the defense is what Magic Johnson or Steve Nash did for the offense. He organizes it into a coherent, working machine. The difference is, on a given night he could also dominate offensively, whereas Nash and Magic could never do so defensively. Just like Magic and Nash, however, there are limits to his "magic." He can't take a team of defensive scrubs and turn them into the best defensive team in the league, and yet that's what he was forced to do for most of his career. If the league didn't fine Minny 5 (!) draft picks in a row for the whole Joe Smith fiasco, we might be having a different conversation right now.

Regarding the Pierce game, KG had those games too, on the offensive end. But he also had analogous games on the defensive end. And those are harder to see and remember. You can't say, "Oh, remember KG's stifling D in that one game against so-and-so! He limited him to 6-14 shooting and basically won the game with his D!" And that works against KG. But he had those games, even if his defensive impact went far beyond locking one dude down for the night (and I'll admit, there were better one-on-one defenders, though not very many in the history of the game). And the reason Pierce was free to go at Lebron the way he did was because Garnett kept the team composed and were able to limit the contribution from the rest of the Cavs. Garnett has an impact that is altogether less noticed, but just as real, and (as I'm arguing) more impactful than someone just scoring a sh*t-ton of points.

So, I'm not saying KG needs (or can win with) Terry/Chandler. In fact, he would make Chandler redundant. What I'm saying is, with an comparable, analogous level of talent and an analogous build around KG, he would have won multiple times, or at least been vastly more successful than he has been.

To put it in other words, you obviously don't build around KG the way you do around Dirk; you need a different system and different players to suit KG's abilities. If you were to translate the players Dirk had on the 2011 championship team (or even some of the ones from earlier in the decade, 05-07, maybe 03) to pure talent, and put that on a KG team and mold it into the corresponding players he would need around him, he would be just as successful, if not more, than Dirk.

Dirk may have not had a super-stacked team in 2011, but he's had some pretty stacked ones in the past. Nothing like Kobe-Shaq on one team, but pretty serious, nonetheless.

[willds09]

Dirk iz better

[DMAVS41]

I'm fine with us disagreeing :cheers:

But I do want to clear some things up. Regarding the difference between individual and team defense, I agree. What I'm saying is that KG impacts your team defense on such a level that it's almost irreplaceable. What he does for the defense is what Magic Johnson or Steve Nash did for the offense. He organizes it into a coherent, working machine. The difference is, on a given night he could also dominate offensively, whereas Nash and Magic could never do so defensively. Just like Magic and Nash, however, there are limits to his "magic." He can't take a team of defensive scrubs and turn them into the best defensive team in the league, and yet that's what he was forced to do for most of his career. If the league didn't fine Minny 5 (!) draft picks in a row for the whole Joe Smith fiasco, we might be having a different conversation right now.

Regarding the Pierce game, KG had those games too, on the offensive end. But he also had analogous games on the defensive end. And those are harder to see and remember. You can't say, "Oh, remember KG's stifling D in that one game against so-and-so! He limited him to 6-14 shooting and basically won the game with his D!" And that works against KG. But he had those games, even if his defensive impact went far beyond locking one dude down for the night (and I'll admit, there were better one-on-one defenders, though not very many in the history of the game). And the reason Pierce was free to go at Lebron the way he did was because Garnett kept the team composed and were able to limit the contribution from the rest of the Cavs. Garnett has an impact that is altogether less noticed, but just as real, and (as I'm arguing) more impactful than someone just scoring a sh*t-ton of points.

So, I'm not saying KG needs (or can win with) Terry/Chandler. In fact, he would make Chandler redundant. What I'm saying is, with an comparable, analogous level of talent and an analogous build around KG, he would have won multiple times, or at least been vastly more successful than he has been.

To put it in other words, you obviously don't build around KG the way you do around Dirk; you need a different system and different players to suit KG's abilities. If you were to translate the players Dirk had on the 2011 championship team (or even some of the ones from earlier in the decade, 05-07, maybe 03) to pure talent, and put that on a KG team and mold it into the corresponding players he would need around him, he would be just as successful, if not more, than Dirk.

Dirk may have not had a super-stacked team in 2011, but he's had some pretty stacked ones in the past. Nothing like Kobe-Shaq on one team, but pretty serious, nonetheless.


Well...I agree with everything other than your assertion that Chandler is harder to replace than Dirk.

Also, if KG on defense is just as valuable to Magic on offense...then do you think KG was better than Magic?

Because KG's offense is certainly more valuable than Magic's defense. I'm interested to know...

Also, I could say the exact same thing about Dirk. All the teams they put around him did not complement him as well as the talent should have. He didn't need Finley and Nash...he needed one of them and a better center. So it is somewhat of a circular argument because Dirk hardly had teams built well around him...yes, he had talent, but not much in the way of complimentary talent. Not only did he never play with a quality center until 2011, but he never had a reliable 2nd guy post 2003 really.

[TheBigVeto]

whats new?

This. Dirk = 2nd GOAT PF after Duncan.

[creepingdeath]

Well there are only two ways to look at it.

One, the Mavs were the luckiest team ever in having SG Wade and Kobe be off and Durant and Lebron be off which would basically make it a fluke run.

Two, either Kidd and Marion had the greatest defensive run.

Apparently you believe it was fluke run. Which one is it Creepy?
Yeah, because the level of defense Marion and Kidd were playing is clearly a dichotomy, not a continuum that allows for more than either GOAT or bust. Also, a championship is never monocausal, so their defensive prowess of course correlates with the team's success, but more factors go into the equation. How can you be so dense?



I never expected you to understand how Chandler plays defense. Do you know what Anchor means? If you really think Dirk is a better defender than Chandler you are so far gone, Creepy, I don't know what to think. We're talking about carrying a team. Dirk averaged 8 rebounds a game in the playoffs - that's not carrying anything. His responsibility was scoring. He took care of his piece of the pie which was distributed pretty evenly.
Where did I say that Dirk is a better defender than Chandler? I said that, at times, he clearly player better man-to-man defense. There are numbers to back up that claim. And you seriously use a rebound average of 8 to use prove that Dirk's sole responsibility was scoring? I also like how you completely ignore the fact that Dirk was the finals rebounding leader.


Even in the finals the last three games of the finals Jason Terry was much more efficient (58% from 25 of 43 shooting to Dirk's 37.5% from 24 of 64) in the last three games and was close in scoring (22 to 25.6ppg).
So? What do you conclude from that arbitrary sample?


Would this really matter if you carried the team?
Erm, obviously, yeah. Dirk was still the team's best player and carried his team (which was so much worse than the championship team, losing Stevenson, Chandler, Peja and Barea while acquiring Lamar Odumb and lunatic West; plus Dirk's lack of health) into the playoffs (despite playing most of the season injured since he played on a sore knee for the German national team). What does carrying for you mean? Carrying to a title?
Oh, and if Chandler basically did for the Mavs what KG did for the Celtics, then why was Dallas ranked at the same exact spot in DRtg?

[Pointguard]

It never ceases to amaze me how under-rated Dirk really is.
I think he has great impact and great value. But he I wouldn't call what he does carrying his team. They were one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the playoffs, before the finals and he wasn't top three in that. The team was playing great defense. Passing great along the perimeter. The leadership was top notch, the ball management was superb, the transition defense great. Few players ever carry a team.

[DMAVS41]

The other side of this is that sadly we have to deal in hypothetical. We never got to see KG in his prime playing on championship caliber teams.

With Dirk we got to see more, but hardly on the level of the help that guys like Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Lebron (now)...etc.

What I do know is that a post prime (at least athletically) led a team to a title that nobody gave a chance to...and for good reason. And it confirmed what I had thought for nearly a decade and what I had argued with people on here for a full year and a half before the Mavs won.

Which was simply;

Give Dirk a legit championship caliber supporting cast and coach and great things would happen. And they did. Same thing I thought watching Lebron on the Cavs...same thing I thought watching KG on Minny.

Seems to me we just continue to ignore what evidence we do have. What we do know is that Dirk led his team to over 50 wins 11 straight years. He stepped up his game in the playoffs with a 27/10/3 stat line on some of the best efficiency ever seen in playoff history on over 25 ppg. He's always been great in game 7's (5-0)...and had ice water in his veins in crunch time and game winning situations.

The Mavs from 05 to 11 had the best record in close games out of any team in the NBA.

I could go on, but I think it's pretty damn impressive when only 3 teams had made the NBA finals and won a title in the West from 99 to 2011. The Spurs, Lakers, and Mavs. And clearly both the Lakers and Spurs had better teams most years.

[DMAVS41]

I think he has great impact and great value. But he I wouldn't call what he does carrying his team. They were one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the playoffs, before the finals and he wasn't top three in that. The team was playing great defense. Passing great along the perimeter. The leadership was top notch, the ball management was superb, the transition defense great. Few players ever carry a team.

What you say above could be said about every championship team ever. Nobody wins alone. It just so happens that almost every year the team that wins has better players than the 11 Mavs did and plays an easier road to the title.

Funny how a player that wins with less than most and plays better teams than most....has somehow now gotten a rap for having a ton of help.

Makes no sense.

I can't even imagine what a team would be like with Dirk playing with Kobe or Wade like Shaq did.

[Pointguard]

Yeah, because the level of defense Marion and Kidd were playing is clearly a dichotomy, not a continuum that allows for more than either GOAT or bust. Also, a championship is never monocausal, so their defensive prowess of course correlates with the team's success, but more factors go into the equation. How can you be so dense?
Wow, that was a complete joke. Dichotomy, continuum, monocausal, prowess, correlates. :lol Who do you think you are fooling??? Bwhaaaahahaaha. Which one is it clown? Good defense by Kidd/Marion, star power just missing or both. I didn't ask you for third grade vocabulary test. Simple question. Really was that circle of nothingness necessary?



Where did I say that Dirk is a better defender than Chandler? I said that, at times, he clearly player better man-to-man defense. There are numbers to back up that claim. And you seriously use a rebound average of 8 to use prove that Dirk's sole responsibility was scoring? I also like how you completely ignore the fact that Dirk was the finals rebounding leader.
He was the leader but its not like he got ten. It was a team orchestration on both sides. The Heat's main ball handler is their best rebounder and Chandler's help defense got him out of position.


So? What do you conclude from that arbitrary sample?
Dirk's pie of clutch shooting was shared.


Erm, obviously, yeah. Dirk was still the team's best player and carried his team (which was so much worse than the championship team, losing Stevenson, Chandler, Peja and Barea while acquiring Lamar Odumb and lunatic West; plus Dirk's lack of health) into the playoffs (despite playing most of the season injured since he played on a sore knee for the German national team). What does carrying for you mean? Carrying to a title?
Oh, and if Chandler basically did for the Mavs what KG did for the Celtics, then why was Dallas ranked at the same exact spot in DRtg?
The last time I talked about Defense it triggered a vocabulary disaster. You really think Tyson with and Tyson gone were the same defensive teams?

[DMAVS41]

Wow, that was a complete joke. Dichotomy, continuum, monocausal, prowess, correlates. :lol Who do you think you are fooling??? Bwhaaaahahaaha. Which one is it clown? Good defense by Kidd/Marion, star power just missing or both. I didn't ask you for third grade vocabulary test. Simple question. Really was that circle of nothingness necessary?


He was the leader but its not like he got ten. It was a team orchestration on both sides. The Heat's main ball handler is their best rebounder and Chandler's help defense got him out of position.

Dirk's pie of clutch shooting was shared.

The last time I talked about Defense it triggered a vocabulary disaster. You really think Tyson with and Tyson gone were the same defensive teams?

Last year the main problems were Dirk struggling with his health and our offensive consistency. The defense relatively stayed the same....of course we were better as a team and on defense with Chandler. Is that supposed to prove something?

[Derka]

A large portion of the forum hates LeBron for that. KG couldn't win a ship with the wolves, so he joined up with 2 other stars of the time so he could actually win one. While on the other hand Dirk stayed loyal, persevered, and won with a 2nd option of Jason Terry. Kg could NEVER dream of that.

Being traded to a team with another star =\= manipulating and colluding in the off-season with other players to join up.

As relates to the thread topic, I respectfully disagree.

[DMAVS41]

I want people to remember reality...because this is kind of getting silly

28 points / 8 boards / 3 assists

49% fg 46% 3p 94% ft

And one of...if not the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

Had to win 2 series as road underdogs. Went through Kobe, Durant, Lebron....

And somehow it's just a ho hum..."well he had Chandler and Kidd and Stevenson"...

:wtf:

[Djahjaga]

Well...I agree with everything other than your assertion that Chandler is harder to replace than Dirk.

Also, if KG on defense is just as valuable to Magic on offense...then do you think KG was better than Magic?

Because KG's offense is certainly more valuable than Magic's defense. I'm interested to know...

Also, I could say the exact same thing about Dirk. All the teams they put around him did not complement him as well as the talent should have. He didn't need Finley and Nash...he needed one of them and a better center. So it is somewhat of a circular argument because Dirk hardly had teams built well around him...yes, he had talent, but not much in the way of complimentary talent. Not only did he never play with a quality center until 2011, but he never had a reliable 2nd guy post 2003 really.

No, I don't think KG was better than Magic, precisely because of what I was saying earlier about the importance of the weight of their deficiencies and strengths with regards to their positions.

What Magic gave you from the PG spot was, frankly, more than what KG did from his position (whatever you want to call it -- supersized SF, PF, C). PG defense won't even be as important as PF/C defense, and so Magic's major deficiencies don't hold him back that much. What Magic did give you were playmaking, rebounding, and steals (no one seems to bring this up, but Magic stole the f*cking ball at a ridiculous rate earlier in his career) and, later, scoring at an above median value. His assists were elite, and his other stats were elite for his position (his rebounding was elite for all positions for a season or two, I'd say). But all of this is qualified by the fact that I believe Magic was put in literally THE perfect position to succeed (after Nixon was traded away, that is). If he hadn't been in a system and surrounded by players that complemented him so well, I don't know how successful he would have been. I guess what I'm saying (it comes a shock to me, as well) is that KG is easier to build around than Magic, but if you can build properly around either, you should obviously choose Magic.

[Legends66NBA7]

I want people to remember reality...because this is kind of getting silly

28 points / 8 boards / 3 assists

49% fg 46% 3p 94% ft

And one of...if not the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

Had to win 2 series as road underdogs. Went through Kobe, Durant, Lebron....

And somehow it's just a ho hum..."well he had Chandler and Kidd and Stevenson"...

:wtf:

And the only case is Dwyane Wade outplaying him, statistically speaking.

[magnax1]

Everytime I see this thread I'm just not sure how you come to the conclusion that Dirk is better. Dirk in his prime was not on another level offensively, and while he was a great rebounder he wasn't nearly as good as KG, and obviously the gap on defense is massive. The argument I've seen is that Dirk somehow can carry a team more than KG, but where the evidence is for that I'm not really sure. Being a bit better scorer doesn't exactly make that sort of difference.

[red1]

I want people to remember reality...because this is kind of getting silly

28 points / 8 boards / 3 assists

49% fg 46% 3p 94% ft

And one of...if not the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

Had to win 2 series as road underdogs. Went through Kobe, Durant, Lebron....

And somehow it's just a ho hum..."well he had Chandler and Kidd and Stevenson"...

:wtf:
godly playoff run

[DMAVS41]

No, I don't think KG was better than Magic, precisely because of what I was saying earlier about the importance of the weight of their deficiencies and strengths with regards to their positions.

What Magic gave you from the PG spot was, frankly, more than what KG did from his position (whatever you want to call it -- supersized SF, PF, C). PG defense won't even be as important as PF/C defense, and so Magic's major deficiencies don't hold him back that much. What Magic did give you were playmaking, rebounding, and steals (no one seems to bring this up, but Magic stole the f*cking ball at a ridiculous rate earlier in his career) and, later, scoring at an above median value. His assists were elite, and his other stats were elite for his position (his rebounding was elite for all positions for a season or two, I'd say). But all of this is qualified by the fact that I believe Magic was put in literally THE perfect position to succeed (after Nixon was traded away, that is). If he hadn't been in a system and surrounded by players that complemented him so well, I don't know how successful he would have been. I guess what I'm saying (it comes a shock to me, as well) is that KG is easier to build around than Magic, but if you can build properly around either, you should obviously choose Magic.

So the only thing we differ on is the value of Dirk. I think a lot of his true value is lost with most people. Having a 7 footer that can stretch the floor at the 3 point line and post up and shoot mid range and make 90% or better free throws in the playoffs and not dominate the ball is in that ultra offensive brilliance of a magic or bird.

And I think the results of what Dirk was able to lead the Mavs to for the last 12 years are proof of that value.

Think for a second about the turnover of players and coaches over the last 12 years in Dallas....didn't matter the combination...if Dirk was healthy (which was often as he's been one of the most durable players of all time up to this year)...the Mavs were winning over 50.

Yet I hear he's hard to build around. Which makes me laugh. Excelled playing Nellie ball...excelled playing avery's slow down defense. Excelled playing with little help at center...excelled playing with a quality center...on and on and on.

At some point you have to look at what stayed the same. Success and Dirk...literally ever other thing changed.

[creepingdeath]

Wow, that was a complete joke. Dichotomy, continuum, monocausal, prowess, correlates. :lol Who do you think you are fooling??? Bwhaaaahahaaha. Which one is it clown? Good defense by Kidd/Marion, star power just missing or both. I didn't ask you for third grade vocabulary test. Simple question. Really was that circle of nothingness necessary?

My reply should be comprehensible for anyone who finished high school. But thanks for proving my point that you are too dumb to argue with.

[DMAVS41]

Everytime I see this thread I'm just not sure how you come to the conclusion that Dirk is better. Dirk in his prime was not on another level offensively, and while he was a great rebounder he wasn't nearly as good as KG, and obviously the gap on defense is massive. The argument I've seen is that Dirk somehow can carry a team more than KG, but where the evidence is for that I'm not really sure. Being a bit better scorer doesn't exactly make that sort of difference.

Because it goes well beyond scoring. I think you think that Dirk is basically just Carmelo Anthony.

Which just could not be further from the truth. Which is why I've tried to explain to you multiple times that Dirk's value is far more than just his scoring. It is what he creates for a team without even touching the ball...and all the other things I've said.

[Pointguard]

What you say above could be said about every championship team ever. Nobody wins alone. It just so happens that almost every year the team that wins has better players than the 11 Mavs did and plays an easier road to the title.

Funny how a player that wins with less than most and plays better teams than most....has somehow now gotten a rap for having a ton of help.

Makes no sense.

I can't even imagine what a team would be like with Dirk playing with Kobe or Wade like Shaq did.
Dirk to me was never a top tier scorer like Durant, Wade, Lebron, Kobe. All of whom had to carry their teams with their scoring. That burden seemingly was never heavy on Dirk like it was on them. While the help doesn't seem like much, it was never like Dirk had to get 30ppg for more than two weeks. Why? Because he was in a much better setting most of his career. Like Duncan who had the same situation, sobeit only scoring wise.

Duncan once lead his team in almost every major category so the carrying was a load in every direction. Something that only Lebron and Garnett in recent memory have done going deep into the playoffs.

Something has to account for Dirk never having to score like the top tier scorers? Durant can score from every point on the floor as Dirk ever could and is just better at it. Durant is more efficient, a better ball handler, more aggressive and even more of a mismatch. He's very clutch too. Durant is seemingly on a better team but his scoring responsibility demanded much more than Dirk's.

Dirk's situation never demanded of him what Durant has to do because Dirk's team was a lot better than what it seemed to be. No way do Lebron, Wade and Kobe have the luxury of scoring like Dirk did on those teams that won a whole lot. Durant could average 25ppg in a toned down mode but his team seemingly can't win there. Dirk can win a title at 26ppg in the finals and what only 21ppg in the regular season.

[kenny817]

Minnesota gave Garnett the choice as a way of thanking him for being a great servant to the club as a whole.
Cleveland got a trade exception and some picks as Miami's way of saying "thanks for the best player in the league, SUCKERS"

Now that we've arrived at the argument again, let's revisit why Dirk is not better than KG.

Help defence: KG
Man-to-man defence: KG
Rebounding: KG
Passing: KG
3pt shooting: Dirk
Midrange: wash
finishing: wash
Athleticism: KG
Leadership/intangibles: KG
Count em


LOL @ bolded

[magnax1]

Because it goes well beyond scoring. I think you think that Dirk is basically just Carmelo Anthony.

Which just could not be further from the truth. Which is why I've tried to explain to you multiple times that Dirk's value is far more than just his scoring. It is what he creates for a team without even touching the ball...and all the other things I've said.
Okay let's assume for a moment that Dirk has some amazing intangible value (he doesn't, pretty much everything you describe as "far more than scoring" is the attention the defense pays to his ability to score) Well is it not true that KG has amazing intangible value that surpasses dirk? One of the best screen setters ever, can play with anyone easily, and an amazing leader and defensive communicator. If we say that Dirk has a value far beyond his scoring (Which once again I don't agree with. He would probably not even get much playing time if he was an average scorer) how does this separate him from KG? You'd have to say that KG's intangible values were nonexistent for this to be even close to enough to make up the gaps elsewhere.

[creepingdeath]

Because it goes well beyond scoring. I think you think that Dirk is basically just Carmelo Anthony.

Which just could not be further from the truth. Which is why I've tried to explain to you multiple times that Dirk's value is far more than just his scoring. It is what he creates for a team without even touching the ball...and all the other things I've said.
Don't bother, man. He is among the likes of CJ Retard and Pointguard who basically derail any effort of having a serious discussion.

[Pointguard]

What you say above could be said about every championship team ever. Nobody wins alone. It just so happens that almost every year the team that wins has better players than the 11 Mavs did and plays an easier road to the title.

Funny how a player that wins with less than most and plays better teams than most....has somehow now gotten a rap for having a ton of help.

Makes no sense.

I can't even imagine what a team would be like with Dirk playing with Kobe or Wade like Shaq did.
Dirk to me was never a top tier scorer like Durant, Wade, Lebron, Kobe. All of whom had to carry their teams with their scoring. That burden seemingly was never heavy on Dirk like it was on them. While the help doesn't seem like much, it was never like Dirk had to get 30ppg for more than two weeks. Why? Because he was in a much better setting most of his career. Like Duncan who had the same situation, sobeit only scoring wise.

Duncan once lead his team in almost every major category so the carrying was a load in every direction. Something that only Lebron and Garnett in recent memory have done going deep into the playoffs.

Something has to account for Dirk never having to score like the top tier scorers? Durant can score from every point on the floor as Dirk ever could and is just better at it. Durant is more efficient, a better ball handler, more aggressive and even more of a mismatch. He's very clutch too. Durant is seemingly on a better team but his scoring responsibility demanded much more than Dirk's.

Dirk's situation never demanded of him what Durant has to do because Dirk's team was a lot better than what it seemed to be. No way do Lebron, Wade and Kobe have the luxury of scoring like Dirk did on those teams that won a whole lot. Durant could average 25ppg in a toned down mode but his team seemingly can't win there. Dirk can win a title at 26ppg in the finals and what only 21ppg in the regular season. All of the other PF had a more taxing demand to get wins.

[kenny817]

Dirk to me was never a top tier scorer like Durant, Wade, Lebron, Kobe. All of whom had to carry their teams with their scoring. That burden seemingly was never heavy on Dirk like it was on them. While the help doesn't seem like much, it was never like Dirk had to get 30ppg for more than two weeks. Why? Because he was in a much better setting most of his career. Like Duncan who had the same situation, sobeit only scoring wise.

Duncan once lead his team in almost every major category so the carrying was a load in every direction. Something that only Lebron and Garnett in recent memory have done going deep into the playoffs.

Something has to account for Dirk never having to score like the top tier scorers? Durant can score from every point on the floor as Dirk ever could and is just better at it. Durant is more efficient, a better ball handler, more aggressive and even more of a mismatch. He's very clutch too. Durant is seemingly on a better team but his scoring responsibility demanded much more than Dirk's.

Dirk's situation never demanded of him what Durant has to do because Dirk's team was a lot better than what it seemed to be. No way do Lebron, Wade and Kobe have the luxury of scoring like Dirk did on those teams that won a whole lot. Durant could average 25ppg in a toned down mode but his team seemingly can't win there. Dirk can win a title at 26ppg in the finals and what only 21ppg in the regular season. All of the other PF had a more taxing demand to get wins.


I'm convinced you do not watch basketball. There is a reason we went like 2-9 without Dirk the championship year...and there's a reason why we were 10 games under .500 without him this year

Negged

[Pointguard]

I want people to remember reality...because this is kind of getting silly

28 points / 8 boards / 3 assists

49% fg 46% 3p 94% ft

And one of...if not the most clutch playoff runs of all time.

Had to win 2 series as road underdogs. Went through Kobe, Durant, Lebron....

And somehow it's just a ho hum..."well he had Chandler and Kidd and Stevenson"...
:wtf:
If Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Durant do their usual outscoring of Dirk by 4 or 5 points per game, Dallas doesn't win. That's the point. The defense and Dallas Luck, as per your boy Creepydeath, were integral to their success. Even you argued all year that year, that offensive players shouldn't get credit for a teams good defense.

Btw, those stats are cheap in comparison with every other Power Foward had to produce to make their teams competitive. But Dirk doesn't have the burden other great PF had. His clutch shooting was great. I will give him that.

[Pointguard]

I'm convinced you do not watch basketball. There is a reason we went like 2-9 without Dirk the championship year...and there's a reason why we were 10 games under .500 without him this year

Negged
:lol does anybody else see the brilliance of this guy.

The majority (I thought it was 5 of 7) of those loses came to teams that beat Dallas on their home court with Dirk playing. Unfortunately they played those same teams on the road, while losing their second highest scorer as well as Dirk. There was a lot of context in that spurt.

[teddytwelvetoes]

LOL @ boldedYou think Dirk is a better leader than KG? :facepalm

KG at a hundred years old is still a defensive anchor.

[DMAVS41]

This is just priceless. The burden of those other guys is higher than Dirk's? They had so much more help.

Durant's team last year was better, quite easily, than any team Dirk has ever played on.

westbrook, harden, sefolosha, collison, perkins, ibaka...i mean...my god.

somehow it's harder for Lebron to win with Wade/Bosh and other solid veterans than it is for Dirk to win with Terry and Chandler.

Kobe? Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Fisher...the GOAT coach?

This is my problem. If you put any of the guys you mention on a team with similar help to the 11 Mavs...you'd be sitting here saying they didn't have enough help.

It is mind boggling to me.

The only player that deserves to have the argument made that he could win with less is Duncan. Guys like Kobe, Lebron, KG, Shaq, Durant (if he wins one) will have needed absolutely great help and great coaching.

I called this even before the Mavs won. I said that everyone's notions about Dirk were so deeply entrenched that even if he led a team of misfits that were shit without him as huge underdogs to the title while playing great...somehow people would make it about everyone but Dirk

And god damn was I right...:facepalm

[Clifton]

Defense matters when you're 7 feet tall. KG isn't just an elite defensive player; he's a defensive captain. He makes other guys better on D.

Dirk doesn't even make other guys better on O. He can't pass or handle the ball like KG either. It is true that he's a much better playoff performer, much more clutch, and a more potent offensive threat. The two are close. But KG suffices as a cornerstone on both ends of the floor; all you need to add are gutsy combo guards and shooters and you've got a contender. Dirk needs much more specific support that is much harder to assemble.

[Clifton]

I didn't ask you for third grade vocabulary test. Simple question.
I always find it funny when someone calls someone out for using hard words to be pretentious, and then the words they point out are not hard at all. I don't know if there's an easier way to make a fool of yourself.

[DMAVS41]

Okay let's assume for a moment that Dirk has some amazing intangible value (he doesn't, pretty much everything you describe as "far more than scoring" is the attention the defense pays to his ability to score) Well is it not true that KG has amazing intangible value that surpasses dirk? One of the best screen setters ever, can play with anyone easily, and an amazing leader and defensive communicator. If we say that Dirk has a value far beyond his scoring (Which once again I don't agree with. He would probably not even get much playing time if he was an average scorer) how does this separate him from KG? You'd have to say that KG's intangible values were nonexistent for this to be even close to enough to make up the gaps elsewhere.

KG does have it as well. Who is refuting that? I'm just saying Dirk has it in a way that is escaping you clearly.

[Pointguard]

This is just priceless. The burden of those other guys is higher than Dirk's? They had so much more help.

Durant's team last year was better, quite easily, than any team Dirk has ever played on.

westbrook, harden, sefolosha, collison, perkins, ibaka...i mean...my god.

somehow it's harder for Lebron to win with Wade/Bosh and other solid veterans than it is for Dirk to win with Terry and Chandler.

Kobe? Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Fisher...the GOAT coach?

This is my problem. If you put any of the guys you mention on a team with similar help to the 11 Mavs...you'd be sitting here saying they didn't have enough help.

It is mind boggling to me.

The only player that deserves to have the argument made that he could win with less is Duncan. Guys like Kobe, Lebron, KG, Shaq, Durant (if he wins one) will have needed absolutely great help and great coaching.

I called this even before the Mavs won. I said that everyone's notions about Dirk were so deeply entrenched that even if he led a team of misfits that were shit without him as huge underdogs to the title while playing great...somehow people would make it about everyone but Dirk

And god damn was I right...:facepalm
I'm not talking about outside help, understand me. The personal tax, isn't what Tim Duncan and Lebron are taxed despite them looking like they had better teams in Tim's and Lebron's case.

Below is a minium of Conferernce finals:

KG's tax for going to the WCF was 24/15/5/1/2 great defense - playing 3 posititions and defensive anchor and still get eliminated Shaq/Kobe. Be the top scorer, rebounder, assist man, block man, and best man on man defender and he couldn't cut back on anything. And they still lose.

Tim Duncan's tax 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and defensive anchor, while leading his team in every category but steals. and he couldn't cut back on anything.

Lebron 30/10/6/2 to win it all, best defender, leads all three major categories. Play four positions to win it all.

Wade 28/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, penetrator to win it all. Had one of the best finals performace ever to win it all. 35/8/4/3 with 1 block to defeat Dallas.

Kobe 30/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, lost to Celtics.

Durant, in his three playoff years, has averaged what it took for Dirk to win the championship 28/8/4

Dirk's tax was bigger in '06 so we'll use that 27/12/3. One of the worst starting defenders in the starting line-up. Lead his team in rebounding. They lose in the finals to Wade.

And the regular season is way more lopsided against Dirk.

The tax is significantly less on Dirk in both seasons. So what is the reason that his team can succeed while demanding less of him? Could it be that his team compensates for what he lacks to a bigger degree? The misfits of compensation were seemingly greater in every example and throughout Dirk's career. I know you will avoid the question.

[Pointguard]

:lol Figure I will repost this since you negged me on it and used your other account Kenny817 to threaten me with it. What's foul is that you started with the insults.



Originally Posted by creepingdeath:

Yeah, because the level of defense Marion and Kidd were playing is clearly a dichotomy, not a continuum that allows for more than either GOAT or bust. Also, a championship is never monocausal, so their defensive prowess of course correlates with the team's success, but more factors go into the equation. How can you be so dense?




Wow, that was a complete joke. Dichotomy, continuum, monocausal, prowess, correlates. :lol Who do you think you are fooling??? Bwhaaaahahaaha. Which one is it clown? Good defense by Kidd/Marion, star power just missing or both. I didn't ask you for your third grade vocabulary test. Simple question. Really was that circle of nothingness necessary?

:lol

[magnax1]

KG does have it as well. Who is refuting that? I'm just saying Dirk has it in a way that is escaping you clearly.
Yeah, I get that, but the point is that KG has a large gap in impact everywhere but scoring (not even offense as a whole, just scoring) but you somehow come to the conclusion that Dirk is his equal, usually saying something like "Offense is more important than defense" which is mathematically just false. I'm just trying to see how you could come to a logical conclusion that Dirk is as good, and there really isn't one. There isn't a gap anywhere between Dirk's and KG's offense that is big enough to make up the huge advantages KG has elsewhere. It's just not logical. You can try and make up some magical advantage Dirk has in intangibles, but that isn't there. Look, I like Dirk, but reality is that yes, he is mostly a scorer. He is not all that different then Melo. Smarter, yeah, and has a better post game which is nice if you want to have an offense run around him, but it's not like he's in a different tier as a scorer. You're comparing a 25-30 ppg 10 rpg guy to a 20-25 ppg scorer, top 10 all time defender, one of the best rebounders at his position ever, and one of the best passers at his position ever. To come to the conclusion different than KG is better is just silly.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Call me when you start hating on KG for team hopping for rings like you do to LeBron.
I'm on the Dirk side, but Kevin Garnett 5 is a good poster. I don't see him hate in Lebron at all.

[creepingdeath]

:lol Figure I will repost this since you negged me on it and used your other account Kenny817 to threaten me with it. What's foul is that you started with the insults.

You're reposting your selfownage? Okay, suit yourself. :roll:
However, I don't use sockpuppet accounts, and I signed my neg, moron.

[Clifton]

"Offense is more important than defense" which is mathematically just false.
What?

[DMAVS41]

I'm not talking about outside help, understand me. The personal tax, isn't what Tim Duncan and Lebron are taxed despite them looking like they had better teams in Tim's and Lebron's case.

Below is a minium of Conferernce finals:

KG's tax for going to the WCF was 24/15/5/1/2 great defense - playing 3 posititions and defensive anchor and still get eliminated Shaq/Kobe. Be the top scorer, rebounder, assist man, block man, and best man on man defender and he couldn't cut back on anything. And they still lose.

Tim Duncan's tax 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and defensive anchor, while leading his team in every category but steals. and he couldn't cut back on anything.

Lebron 30/10/6/2 to win it all, best defender, leads all three major categories. Play four positions to win it all.

Wade 28/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, penetrator to win it all. Had one of the best finals performace ever to win it all. 35/8/4/3 with 1 block to defeat Dallas.

Kobe 30/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, lost to Celtics.

Durant, in his three playoff years, has averaged what it took for Dirk to win the championship 28/8/4

Dirk's tax was bigger in '06 so we'll use that 27/12/3. One of the worst starting defenders in the starting line-up. Lead his team in rebounding. They lose in the finals to Wade.

And the regular season is way more lopsided against Dirk.

The tax is significantly less on Dirk in both seasons. So what is the reason that his team can succeed while demanding less of him? Could it be that his team compensates for what he lacks to a bigger degree? The misfits of compensation were seemingly greater in every example and throughout Dirk's career. I know you will avoid the question.

Whether or not a player is physically taxed more is not an indication of their overall impact.

Avoid what question? Objectively all the guys you listed simply had better teams other than KG and Duncan. And when they didn't...they didn't win.

Could it be that all of the other guys need teammates to compensate for issues as well? Like Paul Pierce outdueling Lebron in a game 7? Guess what...less guys in the league can do that than average 9/8 and play quality defense at center like Chandler did.

Your breakdown above is great providing the gap between us on this issue.

Your point would be great if Dirk led teams with clearly less help in terms of players and coaching weren't so successful. How did Dirk get to the finals in 06? How did he lead them to 67 wins the next year...how did they win it all? He did all of that with far below average supporting casts based on nba history.

And the nail in your coffin is that you claim Dirk needs so much help defensively. Well...the Mavs had one quality center in the Dirk era...Chandler. That was it. So how did they win so consistently without him? I agree that was what the Mavs needed to win it, but what about all those other years in which our centers were the jokes of damp/diop/lafrentz/najera..etc?

The idea that Kobe's help of gasol/odom/bynum/fisher/artest...coached by phil jackson is somehow more taxing for kobe to play with is absurd.

And the numbers support this. The Mavs almost never won...especially in the playoffs if Dirk had an off game. If Kobe did...his win percentage was much higher. Why? Because he clearly and objectively had more help.

People like you want every NBA player to fit into a little box where everything can be broken down in a very simplistic way. And the only way it works is for you to ignore the facts....simply that Dirk led teams...comprised of different players and coaches and styles were at 50 wins for 11 straight years.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, I get that, but the point is that KG has a large gap in impact everywhere but scoring (not even offense as a whole, just scoring) but you somehow come to the conclusion that Dirk is his equal, usually saying something like "Offense is more important than defense" which is mathematically just false. I'm just trying to see how you could come to a logical conclusion that Dirk is as good, and there really isn't one. There isn't a gap anywhere between Dirk's and KG's offense that is big enough to make up the huge advantages KG has elsewhere. It's just not logical. You can try and make up some magical advantage Dirk has in intangibles, but that isn't there. Look, I like Dirk, but reality is that yes, he is mostly a scorer. He is not all that different then Melo. Smarter, yeah, and has a better post game which is nice if you want to have an offense run around him, but it's not like he's in a different tier as a scorer. You're comparing a 25-30 ppg 10 rpg guy to a 20-25 ppg scorer, top 10 all time defender, one of the best rebounders at his position ever, and one of the best passers at his position ever. To come to the conclusion different than KG is better is just silly.

We just obviously see the game differently. And you prove my point with the Melo crap. If you can't see the huge difference in a guy like Melo and Dirk and what they do...I give up.

It's about how unique Dirk is and what he does to defenses. You can't sit here and compare him to Melo and talk about ppg and Dirk being a little smarter and better in the post. It's so much more than that. And again..shocking...the evidence is there to support this.

And of course we haven't even brought up the 02 series. Not sure if you watched it or were old enough, but there was no doubt...absolutely no doubt who the best player in that series was. And this was well before Dirk reached even his prime.

[ProfessorMurder]

And of course we haven't even brought up the 02 series. Not sure if you watched it or were old enough, but there was no doubt...absolutely no doubt who the best player in that series was. And this was well before Dirk reached even his prime.

:rolleyes:

Nash/Finley/Dirk/Van Exel/LaFrentz with homecourt vs. Billups/KG/Szczerbiak

[DMAVS41]

:rolleyes:

Nash/Finley/Dirk/Van Exel/LaFrentz with homecourt vs. Billups/KG/Szczerbiak

It's not about the Mavs winning...it was about Dirk clearly being the best player on the floor. Which he was. LOL at listing Lafrentz like he's anything...might as well list nesterovich

[bdreason]

I'll take KG. Defensive anchor and he can get you 20/10.

[ProfessorMurder]

It's not about the Mavs winning...it was about Dirk clearly being the best player on the floor. Which he was. LOL at listing Lafrentz like he's anything...might as well list nesterovich

Big deal. He was the better player in 3 games, with homecourt, with a better team.

LaFrentz averaged 10/7/2 blocks in that series, which would make him better than Nesterovic.

[Brunch@Five]

Dirk's offense is underrated. He's on close to Nash and Magic in the regard that he and only he makes their system work. Without Dirk running the pick/roll/pop with whoever, Dallas' offense crumbles. He is similar to Karl Malone in that regard, only that he didn't need a PG of John Stockton's caliber to get the ball.
KG might be a good screen setter, and has a good mid-range game, but he would not be as effective as Dirk playing this kind of ball.

Also, did someone really say that Dirk didn't carry his team? What then is scoring 48 and 40 against OKC in the WCF '11 to outduel Durant? What was putting up 37/15 against the Spurs in game 7 '06 to outduel Duncan? His 50 point game against Suns that same year? What Dirk did time after time in the playoffs is the definition of carrying a team.

[spacebump]

One thing KG is better at than Dirk is being a punk and picking fights with guys smaller than him.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Dirk's offense is underrated. He's on close to Nash and Magic in the regard that he and only he makes their system work. Without Dirk running the pick/roll/pop with whoever, Dallas' offense crumbles. He is similar to Karl Malone in that regard, only that he didn't need a PG of John Stockton's caliber to get the ball.
KG might be a good screen setter, and has a good mid-range game, but he would not be as effective as Dirk playing this kind of ball.

Also, did someone really say that Dirk didn't carry his team? What then is scoring 48 and 40 against OKC in the WCF '11 to outduel Durant? What was putting up 37/15 against the Spurs in game 7 '06 to outduel Duncan? His 50 point game against Suns that same year? What Dirk did time after time in the playoffs is the definition of carrying a team.

:applause:

You know your stuff.

[tpols]

I'm not talking about outside help, understand me. The personal tax, isn't what Tim Duncan and Lebron are taxed despite them looking like they had better teams in Tim's and Lebron's case.

Below is a minium of Conferernce finals:

KG's tax for going to the WCF was 24/15/5/1/2 great defense - playing 3 posititions and defensive anchor and still get eliminated Shaq/Kobe. Be the top scorer, rebounder, assist man, block man, and best man on man defender and he couldn't cut back on anything. And they still lose.
.
The way I look at it great teams need a combination of..

Elite defensive coordination- team
Offensive dominance- individual

to win. Defense is very important but it is the TEAM oriented aspect of the two. Look at Thibs in Chicago. A coach who brings in an elite defensive strategy and gets the whole team to buy into it. Look at the Pacers. The Pistons back in the day. They just slow the game down and grind it out. It their team strategy. One guy, like KG, can cover up for defensive lapses and bring great leadership on that side of the ball, but that can be achieved with simple basic coaching and having the team buy into the strategy.

Offense doesnt work like that. Offense is about creativity and control. It cant be 'cooached' nearly as effectively as defense because its often one or two guys making plays for all their teammates. Dirk makes plays for himself and his teammates on a different level than KG does. He opens the floor up because of his range giving his teammates lanes to penetrate and open spots to shoot from. He literally can score at will. KG cant. Dirk can put a team on his back in an inevitablely close game like a lot of playoff games are with similarly talented squads playing against each other day after day. KG isnt clutch like that.

KG needs an elite offensive system in place for him to win while he provides the D. Dirk needs an elite D in place for him while he provides the offense. Id rather have an offensive juggernaut because it would be easier to find a bunch of shooters/defensive role players than it would be to find a team with a great offensive 2nd/3rd option.

[tpols]

You really cant go wrong with either choice though..

KG has one title but could easily have had 2. Dirk has one title but could have easily had two as well. They are like mirror opposites of each other with the same excat results.. One guys does everything at an elite level except create offense at will and the other does everything a little bit worse except he has legendary clutch scoring/offense creation.

[ballup]

KG needs an elite offensive system in place for him to win while he provides the D. Dirk needs an elite D in place for him while he provides the offense. Id rather have an offensive juggernaut because it would be easier to find a bunch of shooters/defensive role players than it would be to find a team with a great offensive 2nd/3rd option.
Oh so it's like that. Dirk needs the D and KG provides it.:yaohappy:

[DMAVS41]

The way I look at it great teams need a combination of..

Elite defensive coordination- team
Offensive dominance- individual

to win. Defense is very important but it is the TEAM oriented aspect of the two. Look at Thibs in Chicago. A coach who brings in an elite defensive strategy and gets the whole team to buy into it. Look at the Pacers. The Pistons back in the day. They just slow the game down and grind it out. It their team strategy. One guy, like KG, can cover up for defensive lapses and bring great leadership on that side of the ball, but that can be achieved with simple basic coaching and having the team buy into the strategy.

Offense doesnt work like that. Offense is about creativity and control. It cant be 'cooached' nearly as effectively as defense because its often one or two guys making plays for all their teammates. Dirk makes plays for himself and his teammates on a different level than KG does. He opens the floor up because of his range giving his teammates lanes to penetrate and open spots to shoot from. He literally can score at will. KG cant. Dirk can put a team on his back in an inevitablely close game like a lot of playoff games are with similarly talented squads playing against each other day after day. KG isnt clutch like that.

KG needs an elite offensive system in place for him to win while he provides the D. Dirk needs an elite D in place for him while he provides the offense. Id rather have an offensive juggernaut because it would be easier to find a bunch of shooters/defensive role players than it would be to find a team with a great offensive 2nd/3rd option.

Well said.

And it's not like KG doesn't do things on offense that really help at the end of games...he does.

It's just that Dirk does things that pretty much no other 7 foot pf has ever done. Which is what I've tried to get at...when you can run a pick and pop with a pf and you can't leave the guy...it just opens up the court for driving lanes and wide open shots.

And then that same pf can post and demands a double...and if he gets fouled will make 90% from the ft line....it is a unique impact on the game that goes beyond the average basketball understanding. And again...if he was just a slightly better version than Melo...the Mavs would never have had the success they've had.

[Pointguard]

You're reposting your selfownage? Okay, suit yourself. :roll:
However, I don't use sockpuppet accounts, and I signed my neg, moron.
Haha, you wouldn't have negged me if I did you a favor, Creepy. Stop trying to pretend like this works for you. As for the rest, I made a distinction between your two accounts and said that Creepy negged me, not your alias. But of course that requires reading.


Whether or not a player is physically taxed more is not an indication of their overall impact.

25 and 9 with average defense couldn't get KG teams 35 wins much less 55 wins that Dallas always produced. The tax is a production tax. KG was also the main setup man those years for his team. I think that's the case with most of the guys I listed - well not to KG's extent. To me those Dallas teams had to be better than they looked.



Could it be that all of the other guys need teammates to compensate for issues as well? Like Paul Pierce outdueling Lebron in a game 7? Guess what...less guys in the league can do that than average 9/8 and play quality defense at center like Chandler did.
I disagree there. Without Kevin Garnett, Pierce would never be in a serious duel with Lebron. Lebron would just take Pierce to the hoop every-time. KG makes that whole situation possible. Lebron was averaging a little over 37 ppg on Pierce the previous 3 years before KG came and crashed the party. The record was like 6 wins to 1 loss as well. KG's defensive presence made it seem like a duel and greatly changed that wining percentage number. Lebron is rarely driving to the rim, his plus 500% shooting percentage immediately takes dips to 27%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=jamesle01



Your point would be great if Dirk led teams with clearly less help in terms of players and coaching weren't so successful. How did Dirk get to the finals in 06? How did he lead them to 67 wins the next year...how did they win it all? He did all of that with far below average supporting casts based on nba history.
It would be very different if Dirk handled the ball more, was crazy with inspiration, had unbelievable decision making skills, played set up man and had some unique defensive skill then we can say his intangibles were off the hook. When Dirk didn't score his influence is minimal. There is no affecting Lebron's game going to the hoop like KG's influence mentioned above. Kidd could win a game without scoring. Dirk is different. His contribution is in plain site. His team needs his 25 and 9 which isn't an phenomenal amount for a superstar, or they suffer. When teams keyed up on him the Mav's lost.

Durant who scores from the same spots on the floor as Dirk, is more efficient, more skilled, a better passer and is very clutch too, simply can't get to more than 60 wins, much less 67 wins while having to score more than Dirk ever did. Can you tell me how Dirk's influence is more than Durant's? Then I might be able to see how this works. Dirk's team weren't as bad as they looked. A team does many things and you can't be said to carry a team when most very good players do two things very well. The Duncan's, KG's and Lebron's are indeed the exception.


People like you want every NBA player to fit into a little box where everything can be broken down in a very simplistic way. And the only way it works is for you to ignore the facts....simply that Dirk led teams...comprised of different players and coaches and styles were at 50 wins for 11 straight years.

I let the Kobe thing go since there are enough people here to defend him. Trust me I have Dirk ranked high because, I like the no excuse thing. He's a winner and is very clutch. I believe he is the main reason why his teams won. I just think he had to do less than other PF's to get wins. He was never a big hustle guy, never a guy of several dimensions to his game, never a guy who was really effective without scoring and he never was a top tier scorer. And his teams didn't need him to be that to win a lot.

[Fiba basketball]

Dirk was best player in the world KG wasn't .

[DMAVS41]

Haha, you wouldn't have negged me if I did you a favor, Creepy. Stop trying to pretend like this works for you. As for the rest, I made a distinction between your two accounts and said that Creepy negged me, not your alias. But of course that requires reading.



25 and 9 with average defense couldn't get KG teams 35 wins much less 55 wins that Dallas always produced. The tax is a production tax. KG was also the main setup man those years for his team. I think that's the case with most of the guys I listed - well not to KG's extent. To me those Dallas teams had to be better than they looked.

I disagree there. Without Kevin Garnett, Pierce would never be in a serious duel with Lebron. Lebron would just take Pierce to the hoop every-time. KG makes that whole situation possible. Lebron was averaging a little over 37 ppg on Pierce the previous 3 years before KG came and crashed the party. The record was like 6 wins to 1 loss as well. KG's defensive presence made it seem like a duel and greatly changed that wining percentage number. Lebron is rarely driving to the rim, his plus 500% shooting percentage immediately takes dips to 27%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=jamesle01


It would be very different if Dirk handled the ball more, was crazy with inspiration, had unbelievable decision making skills, played set up man and had some unique defensive skill then we can say his intangibles were off the hook. When Dirk didn't score his influence is minimal. There is no affecting Lebron's game going to the hoop like KG's influence mentioned above. Kidd could win a game without scoring. Dirk is different. His contribution is in plain site. His team needs his 25 and 9 which isn't an phenomenal amount for a superstar, or they suffer. When teams keyed up on him the Mav's lost.

Durant who scores from the same spots on the floor as Dirk, is more efficient, more skilled, a better passer and is very clutch too, simply can't get to more than 60 wins, much less 67 wins while having to score more than Dirk ever did. Can you tell me how Dirk's influence is more than Durant's? Then I might be able to see how this works. Dirk's team weren't as bad as they looked. A team does many things and you can't be said to carry a team when most very good players do two things very well. The Duncan's, KG's and Lebron's are indeed the exception.


I let the Kobe thing go since there are enough people here to defend him. Trust me I have Dirk ranked high because, I like the no excuse thing. He's a winner and is very clutch. I believe he is the main reason why his teams won. I just think he had to do less than other PF's to get wins. He was never a big hustle guy, never a guy of several dimensions to his game, never a guy who was really effective without scoring and he never was a top tier scorer. And his teams didn't need him to be that to win a lot.


I'll try to respond to one point at a time to make this back and forth easier.

The Durant thing. You make my point for me. What is more likely? That somehow the 06 or 07 or 11 Mavs were just this hugely under-rated team with hugely under-rated players...or that Dirk's impact goes beyond what you think.

How on earth is Durant struggling to lead a team like his current Thunder or last years Thunder to the win totals you are talking about....IN HIS FAVOR?

Why can't we all just be honest. We all know Durant last year had more help than Dirk ever had. It's just not debatable at all. Sorry. So how the **** are you going to sit there and say that Durant has to do more.

Even if he did...it's meaningless because all that would mean is that Dirk impacts the game in a much greater way just by being on the court and not producing numbers...which again leads directly to my point.

Do we really have to sit here and pretend that the 06 or 07 or 11 Mavs were loaded teams? It's absurd.

[Pointguard]

The way I look at it great teams need a combination of..

Elite defensive coordination- team
Offensive dominance- individual

to win. Defense is very important but it is the TEAM oriented aspect of the two. Look at Thibs in Chicago. A coach who brings in an elite defensive strategy and gets the whole team to buy into it. Look at the Pacers. The Pistons back in the day. They just slow the game down and grind it out. It their team strategy. One guy, like KG, can cover up for defensive lapses and bring great leadership on that side of the ball, but that can be achieved with simple basic coaching and having the team buy into the strategy.

Offense doesnt work like that. Offense is about creativity and control. It cant be 'cooached' nearly as effectively as defense because its often one or two guys making plays for all their teammates. Dirk makes plays for himself and his teammates on a different level than KG does. He opens the floor up because of his range giving his teammates lanes to penetrate and open spots to shoot from. He literally can score at will. KG cant. Dirk can put a team on his back in an inevitablely close game like a lot of playoff games are with similarly talented squads playing against each other day after day. KG isnt clutch like that.

KG needs an elite offensive system in place for him to win while he provides the D. Dirk needs an elite D in place for him while he provides the offense. Id rather have an offensive juggernaut because it would be easier to find a bunch of shooters/defensive role players than it would be to find a team with a great offensive 2nd/3rd option.
Dirk had like three years where he was great with the clutch shooting. Before '11 he had a rap of being a choker (he wasn't tho). KG had a year where he was clutch. Its not like either one of them are top tier scorer's.

I will say that people don't look at keeping players out of the paint as being clutch. I coach and I think most coaches will tell you that in big games, defense being played solid will win you more games than one clutch player ever will. Dominant defense is on a whole different level than a clutch scorer. When LA was trashing SA that year ('08), SA was a great defensive team as well but you could get to the rim on them, I said its going to be different with Boston's D. Kobe was clutch that year too. Dominant defense is a level above a super scorer and a clutch scorer - see Detroit vs Kobe/Shaq.

Dominant Defense is better than clutch shooting 80% of the time. But people like to think otherwise because its easier to say look at that one guy scoring. In the playoffs defense is more important than anything. KG makes more correct aggressive defensive decisions than any player in modern basketball but its a hard call for people who just think players are just playing defense by instinct. But if a player does this with the ball he gets way more attention and will be called a genius. Try playing Chess with an equal talent and neglect defense.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk had like three years where he was great with the clutch shooting. Before '11 he had a rap of being a choker (he wasn't tho). KG had a year where he was clutch. Its not like either one of them are top tier scorer's.

I will say that people don't look at keeping players out of the paint as being clutch. I coach and I think most coaches will tell you that in big games, defense being played solid will win you more games than one clutch player ever will. Dominant defense is on a whole different level than a clutch scorer. When LA was trashing SA that year ('08), SA was a great defensive team as well but you could get to the rim on them, I said its going to be different with Boston's D. Kobe was clutch that year too. Dominant defense is a level above a super scorer and a clutch scorer - see Detroit vs Kobe/Shaq.

Dominant Defense is better than clutch shooting 80% of the time. But people like to think otherwise because its easier to say look at that one guy scoring. In the playoffs defense is more important than anything. KG makes more correct aggressive defensive decisions than any player in modern basketball but its a hard call for people who just think players are just playing defense by instinct. But if a player does this with the ball he gets way more attention and will be called a genius. Try playing Chess with an equal talent and neglect defense.


Dirk has been an elite clutch player since 05...probably all the way back to 03 in reality. Sorry...

But ultimately where reality and your take differ is in this;

If these other players do so much more...then reality should be that they need less help around them to win. But reality, in almost every case (aside from Duncan), has been that these guys have needed objectively better players and better coaches to win...

So I ask again. What is more likely? That every player that Dirk has played with has just been historically under-rated?...or that you are missing key parts of his impact in your analysis?

[Pointguard]

I'll try to respond to one point at a time to make this back and forth easier.

The Durant thing. You make my point for me. What is more likely? That somehow the 06 or 07 or 11 Mavs were just this hugely under-rated team with hugely under-rated players...or that Dirk's impact goes beyond what you think.

How on earth is Durant struggling to lead a team like his current Thunder or last years Thunder to the win totals you are talking about....IN HIS FAVOR?

Why can't we all just be honest. We all know Durant last year had more help than Dirk ever had. It's just not debatable at all. Sorry. So how the **** are you going to sit there and say that Durant has to do more.

Even if he did...it's meaningless because all that would mean is that Dirk impacts the game in a much greater way just by being on the court and not producing numbers...which again leads directly to my point.

Do we really have to sit here and pretend that the 06 or 07 or 11 Mavs were loaded teams? It's absurd.

Detroit wasn't a loaded team when they won it all. Its more about the pieces. You keep doing this by deductive reasoning,-who else looks like much on that team - when in team sports never operates that way. Its always inductive, pertaining to the pieces are greater than the sum. Lebron and Wade are not really complimentary players on paper. Kobe and DH are idea. Deductive reasoning will lead you to believe Kobe and DH is the team to win 65 games. Dallas figured a way to win as a team. The guys passing and playing defense are critical to its success.

[DMAVS41]

Detroit wasn't a loaded team when they won it all. Its more about the pieces. You keep doing this by deductive reasoning,-who else looks like much on that team - when in team sports never operates that way. Its always inductive, pertaining to the pieces are greater than the sum. Lebron and Wade are not really complimentary players on paper. Kobe and DH are idea. Deductive reasoning will lead you to believe Kobe and DH is the team to win 65 games. Dallas figured a way to win as a team. The guys passing and playing defense are critical to its success.

You can't use exceptions as the rule. Detroit didn't have a superstar, but they were actually pretty damn loaded...and had a great coach.

Of course things like chemistry matter. But again...you would be arguing my point. Somehow chemistry just worked for every Dirk team for the last 12 years...maybe Dirk being so easy to play with and what he brings on the court (forget all the off court crap) is part of his value.

You see? You very much need to broaden what you look for when analyzing players.

And what more does a player like Durant (who you claim does more and is better) need? He had an all nba 2nd star. The best 6th man. A great perimeter defender in Thabo. Ibaka....solid defensive center in Perk. Bench guy like Collison. Leadership in Fisher. If Durant is better and does more...how is that not enough? How does an inferior player do more with less? It just doesn't add up in reality...unless of course we play revisionist history and pretend guys like Terry and Marion and Chandler are just far better than they are in reality.

[tpols]

Dirk had like three years where he was great with the clutch shooting. Before '11 he had a rap of being a choker (he wasn't tho). KG had a year where he was clutch. Its not like either one of them are top tier scorer's.

I will say that people don't look at keeping players out of the paint as being clutch. I coach and I think most coaches will tell you that in big games, defense being played solid will win you more games than one clutch player ever will. Dominant defense is on a whole different level than a clutch scorer. When LA was trashing SA that year ('08), SA was a great defensive team as well but you could get to the rim on them, I said its going to be different with Boston's D. Kobe was clutch that year too. Dominant defense is a level above a super scorer and a clutch scorer - see Detroit vs Kobe/Shaq.

Dominant Defense is better than clutch shooting 80% of the time. But people like to think otherwise because its easier to say look at that one guy scoring. In the playoffs defense is more important than anything. KG makes more correct aggressive defensive decisions than any player in modern basketball but its a hard call for people who just think players are just playing defense by instinct. But if a player does this with the ball he gets way more attention and will be called a genius. Try playing Chess with an equal talent and neglect defense.
You need both. Dominant defenses are not necessarily better than elite offensive clutch superstars. Look at the history of championships.

MJ/Scottie + Elite D- 6 Rings.
Hakeem, Superstar Offense and Great Defense- 2 rings.
Duncan + Elite D- 4 Rings.
Kobe/Shaq, offensive dominance + good/great D- 5 Rings.

You need to have good defense and at least one offensive juggernaut to win a championship 95% of the time. KG, while good offensively, is far from a juggernaut.

KG shoots 52% TS for his career in the playoffs.. in his prime he was in the low 50s. He averaged 22-23 ppg.

Dirk shoots 58% TS for his career. In his prime was shooting near 60% every long playoff run. Thats a MASSIVE efficiency gap. Dirk shoots way, way better at the line and from deep while having damn near the same FG. He also averages 26-27 ppg in his prime.

So a difference of 6+% overall efficiency and ~5ppg.. Thats fvcking huge difference. Thats a bigger difference than MJ to Kobe.. much bigger in fact for a comparison of two players who play the same position.

Then you have to add in the clutch factor.. cant say niether are elite scorers. Thats a joke. Dirk is and KG isnt. KG is an elite defender/rebounder while Dirk is average at D and as good as any all star forward would be at rebounding always getting 10+ in the playoffs. They both have their deficiencies and advantages.

Just because KG physically works harder doesnt mean that work translates into a higher value in the end.

[Pointguard]

Dirk has been an elite clutch player since 05...probably all the way back to 03 in reality. Sorry...

But ultimately where reality and your take differ is in this;

If these other players do so much more...then reality should be that they need less help around them to win. But reality, in almost every case (aside from Duncan), has been that these guys have needed objectively better players and better coaches to win...

So I ask again. What is more likely? That every player that Dirk has played with has just been historically under-rated?...or that you are missing key parts of his impact in your analysis?
Lebron and KG have gone to conference finals while being the best at nearly every category. You know Dirk could never do that. The team would be a joke. He's not doing everything for his teams. When Derrick Rose played the part of Dirk, except Rose held down every player at his position that year, you were hard core against saying he was even a top 7 player. And Derrick Rose is their set up man as well, the main decision maker, and the teams unquestioned leader you were strongly against him. But now its like pulling teeth with you about Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron and KG have gone to conference finals while being the best at nearly every category. You know Dirk could never do that. The team would be a joke. He's not doing everything for his teams. When Derrick Rose played the part of Dirk, except Dirk held down every player at his position that year, you were hard core against saying he was even a top 7 player. And Derrick Rose is their set up man as well, the main decision maker, and the teams unquestioned leader you were strongly against him. But now its like pulling teeth with you about Dirk.

This is where stats can often be meaningless. Take for example the Heat this year. Lebron does everything...he leads them in virtually every category. If Dirk played on that team in his prime he would not do everything...although he would lead them in scoring and rebounding....but he wouldn't dominate like Lebron statistically. And certainly wouldn't be the defensive force. Yet give prime Dirk Wade and a suitable equal to Bosh and it's game over most likely.

Yet...it would be by far the best team Dirk has ever played on. So that argument makes no sense.

The Rose stuff was more about his lack of efficiency and inability to come through when it matters. Again though. That Bulls team was better than the Mavs in my opinion. Give Dirk a team with Noah and Deng and a suitable guard replacement for Boozer and I don't think they lose in 11. Just too good defensively with an elite offensive force like Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

You need both. Dominant defenses are not necessarily better than elite offensive clutch superstars. Look at the history of championships.

MJ/Scottie + Elite D- 6 Rings.
Hakeem, Superstar Offense and Great Defense- 2 rings.
Duncan + Elite D- 4 Rings.
Kobe/Shaq, offensive dominance + good/great D- 5 Rings.

You need to have good defense and at least one offensive juggernaut to win a championship 95% of the time. KG, while good offensively, is far from a juggernaut.

KG shoots 52% TS for his career in the playoffs.. in his prime he was in the low 50s. He averaged 22-23 ppg.

Dirk shoots 58% TS for his career. In his prime was shooting near 60% every long playoff run. Thats a MASSIVE efficiency gap. Dirk shoots way, way better at the line and from deep while having damn near the same FG. He also averages 26-27 ppg in his prime.

So a difference of 6+% overall efficiency and ~5ppg.. Thats fvcking huge difference. Thats a bigger difference than MJ to Kobe.. much bigger in fact for a comparison of two players who play the same position.

Then you have to add in the clutch factor.. cant say niether are elite scorers. Thats a joke. Dirk is and KG isnt. KG is an elite defender/rebounder while Dirk is average at D and as good as any all star forward would be at rebounding always getting 10+ in the playoffs. They both have their deficiencies and advantages.

Just because KG physically works harder doesnt mean that work translates into a higher value in the end.


Dirk is like 7th all time in playoffs ppg and has the best overall scoring efficiency of anyone scoring over 25ppg in the playoffs for their career.

He also is 5-0 in game 7's and has averaged something like 30/12/4 in those games if memory serves right. And the Mavs had the best record in close games from 05 through 12 overall I believe...certainly 05 through 11.

[Pointguard]

You need both. Dominant defenses are not necessarily better than elite offensive clutch superstars. Look at the history of championships.

MJ/Scottie + Elite D- 6 Rings.
Hakeem, Superstar Offense and Great Defense- 2 rings.
Duncan + Elite D- 4 Rings.
Kobe/Shaq, offensive dominance + good/great D- 5 Rings.

You need to have good defense and at least one offensive juggernaut to win a championship 95% of the time. KG, while good offensively, is far from a juggernaut.

KG shoots 52% TS for his career in the playoffs.. in his prime he was in the low 50s. He averaged 22-23 ppg.

Dirk shoots 58% TS for his career. In his prime was shooting near 60% every long playoff run. Thats a MASSIVE efficiency gap. Dirk shoots way, way better at the line and from deep while having damn near the same FG. He also averages 26-27 ppg in his prime.

So a difference of 6+% overall efficiency and ~5ppg.. Thats fvcking huge difference. Thats a bigger difference than MJ to Kobe.. much bigger in fact for a comparison of two players who play the same position.

Then you have to add in the clutch factor.. cant say niether are elite scorers. Thats a joke. Dirk is and KG isnt. KG is an elite defender/rebounder while Dirk is average at D and as good as any all star forward would be at rebounding always getting 10+ in the playoffs. They both have their deficiencies and advantages.
Dirk never scored like Kobe, Lebron, Wade or like Durant does now, He and KG were always second tier scorers, the 22-25 ppg scorers - I give Dirk the higher end on that, but he was never top tier. KG was a top three scorer once and Dirk never was. KG usually shoots much better from the field (25 percentage points higher which is high), KG was always the top passing big man. So offensively they are very close. You didn't just say Dirk was the same rebounder KG was did you? KG always got much more blocks, steals, and a whole different level defensively.

[SCdac]

I'd go with KG, and that's not an insult to Dirk (obviously). I can see the argument for both players, but stepping back and looking at their careers, I prefer the defensive beast and guy who has triple-double-esque impact.

They both, in the latter part of their careers, lead their team to a championship as the best player and both got eliminated from the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round around 8-9 times, so it's close for me. Both players have had amazing and awful moments. Mark Cuban spent a crap load of money for a decade to no avail building around Dirk, while Garnett was on some lame-duck rosters going no where.

Given an equal supporting cast, if I'm starting a team from scratch right now and told I have to build around them as rookies for the next 5 years I'd go with KG. If I had to build around them for 5 years when they were 27-28 years of age, I'd probably still go with KG.

Dirk's offensive game (prime) is tempting though, especially with today's rules where you can draw so many fouls on the perimeter. There's not very many elite bigs, and the league is softer relative to when he entered the league 15 years ago. But when Dirk entered the league helped him as much as it hurt him, it took many losses, and going up against all time great players / defenses over the years, for Dirk to eventually have that great run. It wasn't solely adding Chandler, Stevenson, etc. His post game improved over the years and he showed great resiliency in that '11 run.

[Young X]

KG, he's slightly worse offensively while being much better at everything else.

[Pointguard]

Dirk has been an elite clutch player since 05...probably all the way back to 03 in reality. Sorry...
You saying Dirk wasn't a considered a choker before? That's new to you??? Google Dirk and choker. He had a bad rap. I didn't think he was but he wasn't considered on Kobe level of clutch either.




But ultimately where reality and your take differ is in this;

If these other players do so much more...then reality should be that they need less help around them to win. But reality, in almost every case (aside from Duncan), has been that these guys have needed objectively better players and better coaches to win...

So I ask again. What is more likely? That every player that Dirk has played with has just been historically under-rated?...or that you are missing key parts of his impact in your analysis?

Once again this is deductive reasoning which doesn't have a reality in sports.

KG needed a whole different organization - it was one of the worse ever. Dirk had one owner that built around him and did so very well. Cuban is known as one of the smartest basketball owners. So its a solid organization from the top down.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

KG needed a whole different organization - it was one of the worse ever.

Um Dallas in the 90's was the worst ever franchise. They were the equivalent of the Charlotte Bobcats. There was one year where they were afraid they would set the recor4d for fewest wins in a year. And they were several other years in which they had the 3rd or fourth worst record in the league.

[Djahjaga]

Um Dallas in the 90's was the worst ever franchise. They were the equivalent of the Charlotte Bobcats. There was one year where they were afraid they would set the recor4d for fewest wins in a year. And they were several other years in which they had the 3rd or fourth worst record in the league.

Dirk was drafted in 98. Cuban bought the team in Jan 2000 IIRC and proved himself as one of the best, most dedicated and knowledgeable owners in the biz.

It doesn't matter how good or how bad the organization was historically. The fact is, the Mavs were infinitely better as an organization and front office than the T-wolves were, even accounting for the 5 draft pick fine (what kind of org even risks that kind of sh*t? And for Joe Smith? In retrospect, that's literally something an insane person would do.)

[veilside23]

Defense Wins Championships ... Scoring = Phx Suns :)

[DMAVS41]

You saying Dirk wasn't a considered a choker before? That's new to you??? Google Dirk and choker. He had a bad rap. I didn't think he was but he wasn't considered on Kobe level of clutch either.


Once again this is deductive reasoning which doesn't have a reality in sports.

KG needed a whole different organization - it was one of the worse ever. Dirk had one owner that built around him and did so very well. Cuban is known as one of the smartest basketball owners. So its a solid organization from the top down.

Who cares what the perception was? Reality and facts are what matter.

Are you solely looking at regular season stats? Because part of what makes Dirk do great was his ability to raise his game in the playoffs. And the difference in terms of scoring volume and efficiency as tpols said...is very different than KG...not to mention the ability to run an offense through Dirk in the 4th qtr night in night out. Something you can't do with KG.

I think ultimately the problem with this conversation is that you are turning KG into Duncan. And KG is not Duncan...Duncan is on a different tier than Dirk..but KG isn't...

[Pointguard]

Who cares what the perception was? Reality and facts are what matter.

Are you solely looking at regular season stats? Because part of what makes Dirk do great was his ability to raise his game in the playoffs. And the difference in terms of scoring volume and efficiency as tpols said...is very different than KG...not to mention the ability to run an offense through Dirk in the 4th qtr night in night out. Something you can't do with KG.
KG, ran the offense in Minny's Conference Final run when he replaced Cassell, whom was hurt a large part of that run. He played the point, rebounded like crazy, defended exceptionally well, didn't turnover the ball, lead the team in points/rebounds/assist in fact he did it in a two point win against the Lakers in an important game five and scored 30 points 16 rebounds 4 assist with NO TURNOVERS. He did this after a 28/13/9 game at the point in game four - all very close games. Big difference as compared to Dirk who doesn't really run the offense at any point in the game. He simply moves the ball around. He never was a set up guy, lets not get crazy. He's good at shooting.

Once again, KG anchored a dominating defense. That no team could crack. The only other outstanding defender came off the bench - Allen. Rondo was still new to defense. When Dirk won it all his offense had one of the best three point make and percentage teams ever thru the conference finals. Barea was a great penetrator, Terry was a great clutch game shooter. Kidd, the real facilitator made the best decisions. Dallas won the chip primarily on defense. The four guys that usually outscore Dirk, never arrived in any of the series. Or as Creeping Death said, it was part luck. With the defense Boston played there wasn't much luck. When Boston needed stops at the end of the game, they got it throughout the championship run. Its just that you aren't up on the term. But clutch is on both sides of the ball. Boston defense got in people's head. To the point it messed with the clarity of opposing player's head. Its clutch time so we not going to penetrate... Believe me, its much more thorough than one clutch shooter.



I think ultimately the problem with this conversation is that you are turning KG into Duncan. And KG is not Duncan...Duncan is on a different tier than Dirk..but KG isn't...

I never made any comparison whatsoever between Duncan and Garnett here. KG one, Duncan another. I know when KG played Duncan it was as equal as two players played each as you can get. This is true of the H2H in regular season and postseason and they guarded each other a lot. Even their career prime numbers are eerily similar.

[DMAVS41]

KG, ran the offense in Minny's Conference Final run when he replaced Cassell, whom was hurt a large part of that run. He played the point, rebounded like crazy, defended exceptionally well, didn't turnover the ball, lead the team in points/rebounds/assist in fact he did it in a two point win against the Lakers in an important game five and scored 30 points 16 rebounds 4 assist with NO TURNOVERS. He did this after a 28/13/9 game at the point in game four - all very close games. Big difference as compared to Dirk who doesn't really run the offense at any point in the game. He simply moves the ball around. He never was a set up guy, lets not get crazy. He's good at shooting.

Once again, KG anchored a dominating defense. That no team could crack. The only other outstanding defender came off the bench - Allen. Rondo was still new to defense. When Dirk won it all his offense had one of the best three point make and percentage teams ever thru the conference finals. Barea was a great penetrator, Terry was a great clutch game shooter. Kidd, the real facilitator made the best decisions. Dallas won the chip primarily on defense. The four guys that usually outscore Dirk, never arrived in any of the series. Or as Creeping Death said, it was part luck. With the defense Boston played there wasn't much luck. When Boston needed stops at the end of the game, they got it throughout the championship run. Its just that you aren't up on the term. But clutch is on both sides of the ball. Boston defense got in people's head. To the point it messed with the clarity of opposing player's head. Its clutch time so we not going to penetrate... Believe me, its much more thorough than one clutch shooter.



I never made any comparison whatsoever between Duncan and Garnett here. KG one, Duncan another. I know when KG played Duncan it was as equal as two players played each as you can get. This is true of the H2H in regular season and postseason and they guarded each other a lot. Even their career prime numbers are eerily similar.

So I want to get this straight. You are saying that the 08 Celtics outside of KG were worse than the 11 Mavs outside of Dirk.

Please answer.

[FF1]

Dirk never scored like Kobe

Dirk averages more PPG than Kobe in the playoffs.

[FF1]

Dirk is like 7th all time in playoffs ppg and has the best overall scoring efficiency of anyone scoring over 25ppg in the playoffs for their career.

He also is 5-0 in game 7's and has averaged something like 30/12/4 in those games if memory serves right. And the Mavs had the best record in close games from 05 through 12 overall I believe...certainly 05 through 11.

This post brings the hammer.

[veilside23]

So I want to get this straight. You are saying that the 08 Celtics outside of KG were worse than the 11 Mavs outside of Dirk.

Please answer.


YES YES YES!!!!! KG was ranked 2nd or third in mvp votes dirk was not even in the discussion of top 3 in 11... and KG won DPOY!!!!! something dirk cant even dream of...

Dirk what did what ? he did the same thing when they lost to heat when shaq was there score...

Its really funny that people seem to think dirk is really superior when all he can do is score but through out their career considering garnett is considered the 3rd option in the current celtics how come there overall career averages isnt even more than 5 pts 19.2 for kg 22.7 for dirk

while the other factors of the game .... doesnt count anymore.. honestly if there is a forward that would be a clear cut better scorer than kg i would take barkley and malone...

and garnett wont choke losing the number 1 seed to a golden state warriors team led by baron davis ....

[veilside23]

Dirk averages more PPG than Kobe in the playoffs.


I would take allen iverson over both dirk and kobe in the playoffs :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Pointguard]

This is where stats can often be meaningless. Take for example the Heat this year. Lebron does everything...he leads them in virtually every category. If Dirk played on that team in his prime he would not do everything...although he would lead them in scoring and rebounding....but he wouldn't dominate like Lebron statistically. And certainly wouldn't be the defensive force. Yet give prime Dirk Wade and a suitable equal to Bosh and it's game over most likely.

I don't know there??? Prime Wade is a better scorer than Dirk? Dirk would lead in rebounds.


Yet...it would be by far the best team Dirk has ever played on. So that argument makes no sense.
You got stuck in the mud... . I was talking about the tax of players that have to do everything for their teams to win. Dirk can score and rebound. He's not leading the team in anything else. He's a two prong player.


The Rose stuff was more about his lack of efficiency and inability to come through when it matters. Again though. That Bulls team was better than the Mavs in my opinion. Give Dirk a team with Noah and Deng and a suitable guard replacement for Boozer and I don't think they lose in 11. Just too good defensively with an elite offensive force like Dirk.
No you said this in the regular season, when the argument was for MVP, in the regular season, when Rose was the games best clutch shooter in the game - Dirk included. Rose's team turned around more 4th quarters wins than any other team.

And you were adamant about this: That the Bulls were a defensive team that rebounded well. DRose, who was the third best rebounding point guard and created a great situation for offensive rebounds with his penetration. And held every star guard in check that year and the best one's far below their averages/percentages. The team had the best record. He lead all PG in scoring. Only player top ten in assist and ppg. Was first in PG blocks that year. In Dirk's MVP year he couldn't dream of leading PF's in rebounding or being top ten in anything outside of scoring.

At that time, before the 2011 playoffs, Rose had participated in one of the best playoff series ever with Boston and was guarded by Lebron the year before that, and shot better in his career playoffs than Dirk did in his career when he had offensive help. Somebody opened that thread up not to long ago.

You did a 360 when it came around to Dirk - Three months later. Lebron Wade Kobe and Durant all of whom will have some stake in being three greatest playoff players at their position EVER were stopped. Something that Chicago couldn't do. But Dirk who was still primarily a scorer should get all of the credit for carrying "a team misfits." that's what you called them, while Rose played a bigger role on his team during the regular season than Dirk did in the playoffs, and YOU said Rose's team carried him. Remind you Rose had more of the scoring burden and more of the clutch burden that Dirk would later on. 360's don't come better than that. Chickens came home to roost for you on that one.

[Pointguard]

So I want to get this straight. You are saying that the 08 Celtics outside of KG were worse than the 11 Mavs outside of Dirk.

Please answer.
No. But I am saying KG's team won on defense - which btw, Dirk's team did too if you look at the scores, and KG defensive presence and offense was a bigger part of the pie than Dirk's timely offense was. KG also was the main scorer throughout the playoffs for the Celtics. KG told the defense how to move and trap. The perimeter players were instructed to channel their players toward KG. Who ultimately kept players out of the paint.

[DMAVS41]

No. But I am saying KG's team won on defense - which btw, Dirk's team did too if you look at the scores, and KG defensive presence and offense was a bigger part of the pie than Dirk's timely offense was. KG also was the main scorer throughout the playoffs for the Celtics. KG told the defense how to move and trap. The perimeter players were instructed to channel their players toward KG. Who ultimately kept players out of the paint.

So isn't that just another way of saying that you would put a different team around each of them? Who cares how they won?

Objectively I think it's pretty obvious that KG's team was better, but that doesn't even matter because all you are saying is that these players need different players around them. Which is just obvious.

The reason I brought up Duncan earlier...was that you seem to think KG could have pulled off what Duncan did in 03 or what Hakeem did in 94. And I could never imagine a KG led team without another star player winning a title. But obviously Hakeem and Duncan did it...and they are on another level for me.

So if you are putting KG on that level...then these arguments make a lot more sense. But if you aren't...and there really is zero evidence that he is...then all you are arguing for is that Dirk requires a different team around him than KG. Which is again...just obvious.

By the way...if the Mavs won on defense...then you have to give Dirk some credit for that. He played something like 39 minutes a game. Terry played 33 minutes a game (awful defender...much worse than Dirk)...Barea...no defensive impact. Peja...no defensive impact. Chandler only played like 32 minutes a game. You have Stevenson who was solid (15 mpg)...and Kidd and Marion. So either the team combined to play quality defense by scheme like Tpols and I said...or somehow, by magic I guess...a team that played Dirk / Terry / Peja / Barea a combined 110 minutes (all poor defenders according to you) got lucky other teams missed shots or some nonsense

[DMAVS41]

I don't know there??? Prime Wade is a better scorer than Dirk? Dirk would lead in rebounds.

You got stuck in the mud... . I was talking about the tax of players that have to do everything for their teams to win. Dirk can score and rebound. He's not leading the team in anything else. He's a two prong player.

No you said this in the regular season, when the argument was for MVP, in the regular season, when Rose was the games best clutch shooter in the game - Dirk included. Rose's team turned around more 4th quarters wins than any other team.

And you were adamant about this: That the Bulls were a defensive team that rebounded well. DRose, who was the third best rebounding point guard and created a great situation for offensive rebounds with his penetration. And held every star guard in check that year and the best one's far below their averages/percentages. The team had the best record. He lead all PG in scoring. Only player top ten in assist and ppg. Was first in PG blocks that year. In Dirk's MVP year he couldn't dream of leading PF's in rebounding or being top ten in anything outside of scoring.

At that time, before the 2011 playoffs, Rose had participated in one of the best playoff series ever with Boston and was guarded by Lebron the year before that, and shot better in his career playoffs than Dirk did in his career when he had offensive help. Somebody opened that thread up not to long ago.

You did a 360 when it came around to Dirk - Three months later. Lebron Wade Kobe and Durant all of whom will have some stake in being three greatest playoff players at their position EVER were stopped. Something that Chicago couldn't do. But Dirk who was still primarily a scorer should get all of the credit for carrying "a team misfits." that's what you called them, while Rose played a bigger role on his team during the regular season than Dirk did in the playoffs, and YOU said Rose's team carried him. Remind you Rose had more of the scoring burden and more of the clutch burden that Dirk would later on. 360's don't come better than that. Chickens came home to roost for you on that one.


I can't even follow this. Rose had more help than Dirk in 11. He just wasn't as good as Dirk...painfully obvious at this point.

And stop making the point about what taxing things a player has to do to win. It makes no sense. You can't have it both ways. You can't readily admit that the current Heat would be by far the best team Dirk would ever have....and then turn around and say he's lesser of a player because of the tax it would take to win.

It is so funny...because the whole "taxing" thing is making my argument again for me. Dirk impacts the game in a much greater way than you give him credit for and that is what is missing.

I just love it. The Mavs were a team of misfits. Nobody wanted guys like Marion and Stevenson and Barea and Peja...hell...nobody wanted Chandler. And Dirk won with them...but somehow it counts less than when a guy like Kobe or Lebron or KG win with clearly better help? WTF are you on?

And to the Rose thing a bit more. Rose was dreadful against Miami...even before his inept 4th qtr play. But somehow the guy that has to do everything could play like ass all game and his team would still be right there late in games. Funny how that works...and the difference between Rose and Dirk at that point was that a Dirk led team wouldn't crumble in crunch time the way the Bulls Did....

But Rose had to do everything...yet somehow when he did everything poorly...his team still was right there with the Heat...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Odinn]

DMAVS41, I suggest that just put Pointguard to your ignore list.

Garnett's offense; 8 - Garnett's defense; 8
Nowitzki's offense; 9 - Nowitzki's defense; 5
Moses' offense; 9 - Moses' defense; 5
That's why Garnett > Nowitzki and Moses in his opinion. One of the most ridicilous.

It's just the way how he is handling the debates. He's not capable of understanding and making a healthy judgement of impact.

[Pointguard]

So isn't that just another way of saying that you would put a different team around each of them? Who cares how they won?

Objectively I think it's pretty obvious that KG's team was better, but that doesn't even matter because all you are saying is that these players need different players around them. Which is just obvious.

The reason I brought up Duncan earlier...was that you seem to think KG could have pulled off what Duncan did in 03 or what Hakeem did in 94. And I could never imagine a KG led team without another star player winning a title. But obviously Hakeem and Duncan did it...and they are on another level for me.

So if you are putting KG on that level...then these arguments make a lot more sense. But if you aren't...and there really is zero evidence that he is...then all you are arguing for is that Dirk requires a different team around him than KG. Which is again...just obvious.
Neither Duncan or Hakeem win in Minny. The team was neither offensively or defensively designed. I do think KG wins with Pop and Cuban. I think Dirk wins with Pop too.



By the way...if the Mavs won on defense...then you have to give Dirk some credit for that. He played something like 39 minutes a game. Terry played 33 minutes a game (awful defender...much worse than Dirk)...Barea...no defensive impact. Peja...no defensive impact. Chandler only played like 32 minutes a game. You have Stevenson who was solid (15 mpg)...and Kidd and Marion. So either the team combined to play quality defense by scheme like Tpols and I said...or somehow, by magic I guess...a team that played Dirk / Terry / Peja / Barea a combined 110 minutes (all poor defenders according to you) got lucky other teams missed shots or some nonsense
Point is that Kidd/Marion/Stephenson/Chandler did a defensive job I would compare to anybody's in the history of the game. Perimeter scorers in this era are harder to stop than centers in the 90's. Maybe you too believe it was luck???

[DMAVS41]

Neither Duncan or Hakeem win in Minny. The team was neither offensively or defensively designed. I do think KG wins with Pop and Cuban. I think Dirk wins with Pop too.


Point is that Kidd/Marion/Stephenson/Chandler did a defensive job I would compare to anybody's in the history of the game. Perimeter scorers in this era are harder to stop than centers in the 90's. Maybe you too believe it was luck???

They played the best defense in the history of the game? What an absurd statement. But lets pretend that is true. That means that a team with Dirk playing by far this most minutes can be part of a team that played aruably the best defense in the history of the game (your words)...

So Dirk simply can't be the no impact defensive player you claim...not to mention the fact that guys like Terry, Barea, and Peja are just objectively poor defensive players. Certainly Terry and Peja are...

So I ask again. Are you somehow missing some key things that make Dirk as great as the results have shown?

I don't know if Hakeem or Duncan would have won in Minny...I'd bet my life they have more success than KG did though. And it wouldn't shock me to see one of them find a way to get by the Lakers in 04. And why do we just give KG a pass for series like 02 against the Mavs? If he's so great and so capable of dominating both ends..etc. Why did his team get run so easily? Before the series KG was talking shit about locking up Dirk and plenty of people thought the Wolves might win....certainly in Dallas people thought that.

So where is this huge impact? All I see is a great player in KG that needed as much help as everyone else to win. He's done nothing out of the ordinary to warrant your claims.

And you already admitted that the 08 Celtics were better. So lets try this a different way;

Tell me which superstars had less help than Dirk en route to winning the title in the last 30 years. Please answer.

Also, I'd understand this if Dirk's team in 11 was the first sign of success or something. Again...we are talking about 11 straight seasons over 50 wins. 2 trips to the finals...3 trips to the wcf...a title. Doing so in a conference where each year at least 1 other team had more talent and better coaching. A conference of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Kings, Suns, Thunder....

How did he do it? He doesn't do much....but somehow every team he's played on when healthy (his entire career essentially) was over 50 wins...different players, different coaches, different systems, different roles...

But it's all luck...

[Pointguard]

DMAVS41, I suggest that just put Pointguard to your ignore list.

Garnett's offense; 8 - Garnett's defense; 8
Nowitzki's offense; 9 - Nowitzki's defense; 5
Moses' offense; 9 - Moses' defense; 5
That's why Garnett > Nowitzki and Moses in his opinion. One of the most ridicilous.

It's just the way how he is handling the debates. He's not capable of understanding and making a healthy judgement of impact.
Whoa, Odinn watch your mouth. I never disrespected you.

You're the guy who got upset when I showed you that KG was a much better defensive rebounder than Malone??? And if you saw Malone play you know that he had these crazy inflated offensive rebounding numbers? That his shooting percentage was a lot lower than point guards were at the time. And you were trying to act like Malone had all of the deep playoff runs when he didn't? At least defend yourself if you are going to tell people to not listen to somebody else. So why don't you show people how great your healthy judgment of impact was, you certainly acted like you never saw him play.

You didn't show any understanding and to be honest you didn't even take a stand... and then you are going to talk about other people's judgment and assessment qualities??? When you didn't even answer back if I recall right. But hey suit yourself. You're rarely raise your hand and when you do it comes out like this.

[Pointguard]

They played the best defense in the history of the game? What an absurd statement. But lets pretend that is true. That means that a team with Dirk playing by far this most minutes can be part of a team that played aruably the best defense in the history of the game (your words)...
Simple question. Name me a perimeter player that had to guard quality players on the level of Lebron/Durant? or Wade who had one of the best finals ever and Kobe? Don't make it confusing. Answer the simple question.



I don't know if Hakeem or Duncan would have won in Minny...I'd bet my life they have more success than KG did though. And it wouldn't shock me to see one of them find a way to get by the Lakers in 04. And why do we just give KG a pass for series like 02 against the Mavs? If he's so great and so capable of dominating both ends..etc. Why did his team get run so easily? Before the series KG was talking shit about locking up Dirk and plenty of people thought the Wolves might win....certainly in Dallas people thought that.
Duncan never played on a bad team so you can't back that up at all. Hakeem played many years with very solid players and didn't win. The first year KG plays for a good organization he won it all.

In 02 he wasn't put on Dirk cause his team had few strengths and it was better to have KG go 25/19/5/2/2 instead of going around chasing a 7 foot perimeter player around screens. It makes perfect sense. Dirk didn't play on the blocks, then.



So where is this huge impact? All I see is a great player in KG that needed as much help as everyone else to win. He's done nothing out of the ordinary to warrant your claims.



And you already admitted that the 08 Celtics were better. So lets try this a different way;

Tell me which superstars had less help than Dirk en route to winning the title in the last 30 years. Please answer.
Dirk had some Jedi doing mind tricks on Lebron who wasn't missing shots and passivley took very few. Every player in the game would wish that the top player on the other team bug out on the floor. Even you said it! It was a fluke. Like you said all along about Chicago - Defense carried the team.



Also, I'd understand this if Dirk's team in 11 was the first sign of success or something. Again...we are talking about 11 straight seasons over 50 wins. 2 trips to the finals...3 trips to the wcf...a title. Doing so in a conference where each year at least 1 other team had more talent and better coaching. A conference of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Kings, Suns, Thunder....

How did he do it? He doesn't do much....but somehow every team he's played on when healthy (his entire career essentially) was over 50 wins...different players, different coaches, different systems, different roles...

But it's all luck...
I already gave him props for that. He's a no excuse guy.

[spacebump]

Dirk had like three years where he was great with the clutch shooting. Before '11 he had a rap of being a choker (he wasn't tho). KG had a year where he was clutch. Its not like either one of them are top tier scorer's.


If you don't think of Dirk throughout most of his career as one of the top tier scorer's in the league, you didn't watch enough Dirk.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

It's great to know that this wouldn't even be a debate if LeBron hadn't melted down in the 11 Finals.

Dirk is a better scorer/shooter and that's it. He does nothing else even on the same level as Garnett, except perhaps loyalty (and even then it's never been tested the same way Garnett's has). In terms of achievement, they both have 1 MVP, 2 Finals, 1 Championship, Dirk has a Finals MVP, and Garnett has a DPOY.

Is the fact that Paul Pierce had a couple of better games in 2008 enough to wipe out the fact Garnett was a better player in almost every possible category? You can decide for yourself... but I only see one answer.

[DMAVS41]

Simple question. Name me a perimeter player that had to guard quality players on the level of Lebron/Durant? or Wade who had one of the best finals ever and Kobe? Don't make it confusing. Answer the simple question.


Duncan never played on a bad team so you can't back that up at all. Hakeem played many years with very solid players and didn't win. The first year KG plays for a good organization he won it all.

In 02 he wasn't put on Dirk cause his team had few strengths and it was better to have KG go 25/19/5/2/2 instead of going around chasing a 7 foot perimeter player around screens. It makes perfect sense. Dirk didn't play on the blocks, then.




Dirk had some Jedi doing mind tricks on Lebron who wasn't missing shots and passivley took very few. Every player in the game would wish that the top player on the other team bug out on the floor. Even you said it! It was a fluke. Like you said all along about Chicago - Defense carried the team.


I already gave him props for that. He's a no excuse guy.


You continue to ignore the questions. If KG is so much better...where was the impact in 02 in the series...seems to me in order for KG to anchor a good defense he needs help. Shocking how that works. I didn't say why didn't KG just stop Dirk...I said why he didn't impact that series at all defensively

Also, you can't keep focusing on 11 for Dirk as if it was the only time in his career he's been on a really good team that had success. What happened in 03? Or 06? or 07 in the regular season?

When a huge underdog team like the 11 Mavs wins the title...of course it is somewhat a fluke...because they are a worse team with worse talent than some of the teams they play. That makes it even more impressive...the margin for error on a championship team like that is much less.

And I will ask again. Please tell me which superstars won the title over the last 30 years with less help than Dirk had. There are a few, just and to see your list....

[goldcrow]

Comeon guys Dirk won it all being the clear #1 option on a balanced team with no other all-stars. KG had Pierce and Allen, two other HOFs on the latter part of their prime. That alone should tip the balance in Dirk's favor.

[Brunch@Five]

people really need to stop pretending that Dirk is simply a great scorer. He's one of the best offensive players of the past decade. Efficient, few TOs, arguably the best pick and roll/pop big ever. KG far from Dirk as an offensive player.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

people really need to stop pretending that Dirk is simply a great scorer. He's one of the best offensive players of the past decade. Efficient, few TOs, arguably the best pick and roll/pop big ever. KG far from Dirk as an offensive player.

KG has a better career FG%, and .4 TOPG more than Dirk over their career is hardly huge. You're talking like KG averages like 15ppg over his career... and of course omitting the fact that Garnett has him beat in every other facet of the game.

[rmt]

Hey, guys, ya'll can play the "what if" game until kingdom come. I can say what if Duncan had the 100+million payroll in SA the way Kobe has had. I can hypothesize who would do what where. All that matters is what happened. The better player doesn't necessarily end up winning more. If I were to start a franchise, I would pick KG over Dirk (because of the defense). It's easier to find a clutch perimeter player than a good, defensive big man.

I think that KG was (stupid/greedy/loyal) to stay in MIN for so long, but he's got his money and less championships - his choice. Same as it is his choice now to stay in BOS when he could go to any contender and make a HUGE difference and have a better chance of winning a championship. Same goes for Dirk too of course. But apparently, loyalty, comfort level, etc count for something (after they've made their millions, of course).

[Brunch@Five]

KG has a better career FG%, and .4 TOPG more than Dirk over their career is hardly huge. You're talking like KG averages like 15ppg over his career... and of course omitting the fact that Garnett has him beat in every other facet of the game.

I'm talking impact. You can't build a top-tier offense around KG. He is versatile and can score from all inside the 3point area, but Dirk's pick/roll play and mid-post game is far superior and dominant enough to run your entire offense around it.
That's what seperates guys like Shaq, Magic, Bird, Dirk, MJ, Duncan and Hakeem offensively from other guys: the dominance in that one aspect that opens everything up for the entire team. (Bird, Magic and MJ of course doing it in more than one way, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan being superior in the low post - I'm not putting Dirk on their level as an overall player). You can give Dirk the ball in the mid-post or play p/r on top and let your offense work around it. Can't do that with KG.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I'm talking impact. You can't build a top-tier offense around KG. He is versatile and can score from all inside the 3point area, but Dirk's pick/roll play and mid-post game is far superior and dominant enough to run your entire offense around it.
That's what seperates guys like Shaq, Magic, Bird, Dirk, MJ, Duncan and Hakeem offensively from other guys: the dominance in that one aspect that opens everything up for the entire team. (Bird, Magic and MJ of course doing it in more than one way, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan being superior in the low post - I'm not putting Dirk on their level as an overall player). You can give Dirk the ball in the mid-post or play p/r on top and let your offense work around it. Can't do that with KG.

The Pierce/Garnett and Rondo/Garnett pick and rolls are among the most dangerous in basketball. You can give Garnett the ball in the low post in this era and he'll dominate, see last year's playoffs. The only reason the Celtics got a sniff of the conference finals was because KG abused teams inside and in the pick and pop. Often Garnett gets the ball in low post and is good enough of a passer to get the guy who passed it then cut to the basket a layup. He averages more apg than Nowitzki, too...

Offensively, yes, Dirk has the greater impact. Defensively, there's a far larger gap in impact, and it's not in Dirk's favour... I just can't believe how people ignore this when this argument comes up every other week. Garnett is one of the best defenders ever, Dirk is average at best. The offensive gap is not that wide, and don't insult yourself trying to say it is...

I'm interested to know what your definition of "top-tier" is, by the way... the Mavs haven't had a top 5 offense since 2006-07.

[Bigsmoke]

[QUOTE=Phiology]
Passing: D

[Djahjaga]

What the hell are assists? A defensive stat?

There is quite literally nothing Dirk does better than KG other than shooting and scoring. This doesn't need to get more complicated than that.

Now you want me to believe he's a better player than Garnett because he averages a few more PPG and can shoot threes and free throws better? That's ridiculous.

[Djahjaga]

I'm talking impact. You can't build a top-tier offense around KG. He is versatile and can score from all inside the 3point area, but Dirk's pick/roll play and mid-post game is far superior and dominant enough to run your entire offense around it.
That's what seperates guys like Shaq, Magic, Bird, Dirk, MJ, Duncan and Hakeem offensively from other guys: the dominance in that one aspect that opens everything up for the entire team. (Bird, Magic and MJ of course doing it in more than one way, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan being superior in the low post - I'm not putting Dirk on their level as an overall player). You can give Dirk the ball in the mid-post or play p/r on top and let your offense work around it. Can't do that with KG.

And you can't build a top-tier defense around Dirk. Show me a team where Dirk has been the main rim/paint protector that has achieved more defensively than the 08 Celtics? Even the 04 Wolves had a top ranked defense ffs.

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/

Multiple studies have shown Garnett's defensive impact to be historically great, even when surrounded by incredibly shitty defensive teams.



Are we throwing away the whole "defense wins championships" thing, or what? Are we gonna ignore that KG is one of the best passing big men of all-time? Or are we gonna keep talking abstractly about what Dirk brings to the offense without offering tangible proof? Yeah, I watched the 2011 playoffs and my jaw was on the ground for most of it, but that doesn't mean Dirk is somehow better than KG.

[Brunch@Five]

What the hell are assists? A defensive stat?

There is quite literally nothing Dirk does better than KG other than shooting and scoring. This doesn't need to get more complicated than that.

Now you want me to believe he's a better player than Garnett because he averages a few more PPG and can shoot threes and free throws better? That's ridiculous.

yes it does need to get more complicated than that, because simply saying "Dirk is a better scorer and shooter and worse at everything else" is missing the point. As a complete package, Dirk is way better and more dominant than KG on offense, and that includes creating scoring opportunities for his teammates.
Btw, not only is Dirk better at shooting, he is also better at driving to the basket.

[Djahjaga]

yes it does need to get more complicated than that, because simply saying "Dirk is a better scorer and shooter and worse at everything else" is missing the point. As a complete package, Dirk is way better and more dominant than KG on offense, and that includes creating scoring opportunities for his teammates.
Btw, not only is Dirk better at shooting, he is also better at driving to the basket.

Dirk is not and has NEVER been better at creating opportunities for his teammates. That's a f*cking joke. The two are much closer on offense simply because of KG's far superior passing game.

And you're ignoring defense, yet again.

[Bigsmoke]

Garnett is like that only 7 footer since Wilt to average at least 6 assists a game before and these white boys in ISH trying to claim that Dirk is a better passer :lol

[Djahjaga]

Garnett is like that only 7 footer since Wilt to average at least 6 assists a game before and these white boys in ISH trying to claim that Dirk is a better passer :lol

It's f*cking revisionism. Even if we ignore the stats, watch a handful of games of either and the answer is clear. But now Dirk proponents want to tell us he's better at passing and has better intangibles? Ridiculous.

[Brunch@Five]

read my posts properly. I said "create scoring opportunities for his teammates", not "pass them the ball for an open shot". He creates scoring opportunities because a) he's a mismatch for almost all opponents and b) when he sets screens the defense cannot switch and the big man has to stay with him and cannot help and c) you can give him the ball in the mid-/high-post, basically at the center of the court where the ball is most dangerous.
Never did I say that he was a better passer, because he isn't. But neither was Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan, and they certainly created more scoring opportunities than KG too, right?

[Djahjaga]

read my posts properly. I said "create scoring opportunities for his teammates", not "pass them the ball for an open shot". He creates scoring opportunities because a) he's a mismatch for almost all opponents and b) when he sets screens the defense cannot switch and the big man has to stay with him and cannot help and c) you can give him the ball in the mid-/high-post, basically at the center of the court where the ball is most dangerous.
Never did I say that he was a better passer, because he isn't. But neither was Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan, and they certainly created more scoring opportunities than KG too, right?

This implies that A. Garnett doesn't have a comparable, and in some cases superior, effect in those circumstances. and B. that Garnett's far superior passing ability doesn't negate any advantage Dirk may have in "creating scoring opportunities for his teammates."

While Dirk is obviously a bigger threat, you can't leave Garnett on the PnR either. And while we're discussing screens, Garnett is one of the best screen setters of all time.

The T-wolves ran their offense through Garnett all the time, mainly through the high or pinch post. Garnett created just as many scoring opportunities as Dirk in those situations, and his far superior passing is enough to outscore Dirk in this area, as well.

Note that, for Dirk, these are all pros that are dependent on his ability to score the ball. In other words, they're a product of his shooting and scoring ability. Garnett offers so much more. This is a guy who scored 25,000 points with a pass first mindset.

[Brunch@Five]

This implies that A. Garnett doesn't have a comparable, and in some cases superior, effect in those circumstances. and B. that Garnett's far superior passing ability doesn't negate any advantage Dirk may have in "creating scoring opportunities for his teammates."

I am absolutely implying that, but realize that it's merely an opinion. I dunno if stats do verify it. So we'll to agree to disagree.


While Dirk is obviously a bigger threat, you can't leave Garnett on the PnR either. And while we're discussing screens, Garnett is one of the best screen setters of all time.

I don't wanna put KG down, and he obviously sets great screens (often bordering the illegal), but you can absolutely leave him at the 3point line, so his setting a screen does not distort the defense as much as Dirk does.



Note that, for Dirk, these are all pros that are dependent on his ability to score the ball. In other words, they're a product of his shooting and scoring ability. Garnett offers so much more. This is a guy who scored 25,000 points with a pass first mindset.

You're right, but what does that mean? Dirk's scoring ability, thus the way he is defended, is not gonna change from one possession to the next.


KG and Dirk were not that dissimilar in playing style, KG being a better passer but Dirk being a more dominant and efficient scorer. That might equal out in the creating for others department, but still leaves only Dirk being a bonafide go-to guy in the clutch, making Dirk much more valuable on offense than KG overall.

[Pointguard]

You continue to ignore the questions. If KG is so much better...where was the impact in 02 in the series...seems to me in order for KG to anchor a good defense he needs help. Shocking how that works. I didn't say why didn't KG just stop Dirk...I said why he didn't impact that series at all defensively
The coach. The coach didn't know how to use Garnett, coach wasn't defensive minded at all. The first year KG gets a defensive coach its one of the best defensive teams in history. KG was never on an offensive minded team either. Minny was just a mess. The '08 Celtics would have absolutely destroyed that Maverick's team. But its all on the coach. KG can't just go and start guarding Dirk. Dirk rarely guarded KG in KG's prime period. In general Dirk rarely guarded other superstars.

I just want to be clear on something here. You are saying that Dallas won on the fluke? That they were lucky enough that 4 players all of whom will be ranked top 3 in playoff history at their positions, had mysteriously coincidental horrible performances?

[DMAVS41]

The coach. The coach didn't know how to use Garnett, coach wasn't defensive minded at all. The first year KG gets a defensive coach its one of the best defensive teams in history. KG was never on an offensive minded team either. Minny was just a mess. The '08 Celtics would have absolutely destroyed that Maverick's team. But its all on the coach. KG can't just go and start guarding Dirk. Dirk rarely guarded KG in KG's prime period. In general Dirk rarely guarded other superstars.

I just want to be clear on something here. You are saying that Dallas won on the fluke? That they were lucky enough that 4 players all of whom will be ranked top 3 in playoff history at their positions, had mysteriously coincidental horrible performances?

No. I said any time a huge underdog team wins...you can call it a fluke if you want. I think the Mavs won because they all had ice water in their veins late in close games. Of course everything and everyone goes into a championship. You could credit Trevor Ariza with the 09 Lakers title if you want to look at things the way you do. Without him they don't win.

So I don't get the point. The Mavs won tight game after tight game the entire playoffs...and I'd credit Dirk the most for that by far.

And you still can't grasp the point. So here it is again. If Dirk can be the clear cut best player and most valuable player...and play by far the most minutes (7 more than anyone else per game)...on a team that, according to you, plays the best defense ever...and wins the title going through all the best players and best teams...then maybe his so called "deficiencies" don't impact things as much as you claim...

You see?

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't know if Hakeem or Duncan would have won in Minny...I'd bet my life they have more success than KG did though. And it wouldn't shock me to see one of them find a way to get by the Lakers in 04.

I don't know about Duncan, since his team already lost in the second round with a 2-0 series lead, as well. However, he would have better weapons, if Cassell is healthy, so I see what your saying. Duncan was also injured that year, I believe, so it probably comes down to his healthy too. I can see Hakeem changing the series a lot more and outplaying Shaq.


Tell me which superstars had less help than Dirk en route to winning the title in the last 30 years. Please answer.

Though you didn't ask me, it's probably Hakeem's Rockets in 94 and Duncan's Spurs in 03.

Rick Barry in 75 would also be in the conversation too, but you did say last 30 years... I can see if someone wanted to say the Pistons in 04 and Heat in 06, but I thought the all-around depth was there.

[DMAVS41]

I don't know about Duncan, since his team already in the second round with a 2-0 series lead, as well. However, he would have better weapons, if Cassell is healthy, so I see what your saying. Duncan was also injured that year, I believe, so it probably comes down to his healthy too. I can see Hakeem changing the series a lot more and outplaying Shaq.



Though you didn't ask me, it's probably Hakeem's Rockets in 94 and Duncan's Spurs in 03.

Rick Barry in 75 would also be in the conversation too, but you did say last 30 years... I can see if someone wanted to say the Pistons in 04 and Heat in 06, but I thought the all-around depth was there.

Exactly. So if so few superstars won with equal to or less help and coaching...without even mentioning the extremely tough road to the title historically.

Then what do all these so called "deficiencies" really add up to? In my mind they keep Dirk away from being in the ultra elite category of players like Duncan, Bird, and Hakeem...but KG just doesn't belong in that category imo.

[SCdac]

And you still can't grasp the point. So here it is again. If Dirk can be the clear cut best player and most valuable player...and play by far the most minutes (7 more than anyone else per game)...on a team that, according to you, plays the best defense ever...and wins the title going through all the best players and best teams...then maybe his so called "deficiencies" don't impact things as much as you claim...

You're (conveniently) forgetting Jason Kidd... the guy who lead the Mavs in steals, assists, and three's.

[DMAVS41]

You're (conveniently) forgetting Jason Kidd... the guy who lead the Mavs in steals, assists, and three's.

My fault. 4 more than anyone else.

[Ballin416]

Haven't read the thread but preference in all time rankings must consider two way play and in that sense, KG is heaps and bounds above Dirk.

[rmt]

Haven't read the thread but preference in all time rankings must consider two way play and in that sense, KG is heaps and bounds above Dirk.

I disagree. All-time rankings place more emphasis on winning than on who is the "better (2-way) player" or else Bill Russell would be considered a lot lower than he is (he'd be like the opposite of Dirk). Also, Lebron would be considered top 10 and he isn't because he hasn't won enough yet.

Another example is Hakeem/Kobe. IMO, Hakeem is the better player - more impact and the one I would choose to start a franchise with but I consider Kobe #9 ahead of Hakeem #10 just because of the sheer weight of his career. Hakeem with the higher peak - Kobe with longevity. Skill-wise they're about even for their respective positions.

[SCdac]

I hate how in threads like these both players get talked down to an exaggerated degree. Both are all-time greats. Neither player is flawless that's for sure. Dirk's regular season win-% is like .66+ which is awesome but that drops in the playoffs to like .46+. I'm sure KG's drops as well, because both players have been a part of numerous first and second round exits.

[veilside23]

simple if dirk is so good in scoring how come he only has 3 more points than kg all through their career.. considering that garnett has been the "3rd option" for the celtics since 08 dirk should have been like 5 pts or more ...

and garnett had 2 or 3 more assists a steal or 2 per game ... 3 to 5 more rebounds and a block or 2 per game

how can people not count that greatness ???

if we will go by scoring then is it safe to say that melo >> dirk ?

since melo plays 3 or 4 as well...

see the logic ? sometimes people need to learn and really understand basketball...

[Ballin416]

I disagree. All-time rankings place more emphasis on winning than on who is the "better (2-way) player" or else Bill Russell would be considered a lot lower than he is (he'd be like the opposite of Dirk). Also, Lebron would be considered top 10 and he isn't because he hasn't won enough yet.

Another example is Hakeem/Kobe. IMO, Hakeem is the better player - more impact and the one I would choose to start a franchise with but I consider Kobe #9 ahead of Hakeem #10 just because of the sheer weight of his career. Hakeem with the higher peak - Kobe with longevity. Skill-wise they're about even for their respective positions.

I don't disagree with you that all time rankings place a great emphasis on winning. I'm just saying that you must also consider the inherent skills and abilities of these players on both ends of the court.

There's a general stigma for players who have never won and it greatly affects their rank but had they won even one ring, some would jump a tier in the hierarchy of all time greats (Malone Barkley). But because they never won, we don't view them as the absolute elite even if they reach an elite benchmark (Malone 2nd all time in points).

As for my first post, we know Dirk and KG have won a championship so I feel it fair to place more emphasis on their collective skillsets. KG wins it by a mile.

[DMAVS41]

I don't disagree with you that all time rankings place a great emphasis on winning. I'm just saying that you must also consider the inherent skills and abilities of these players on both ends of the court.

There's a general stigma for players who have never won and it greatly affects their rank but had they won even one ring, some would jump a tier in the hierarchy of all time greats (Malone Barkley). But because they never won, we don't view them as the absolute elite even if they reach an elite benchmark (Malone 2nd all time in points).

As for my first post, we know Dirk and KG have won a championship so I feel it fair to place more emphasis on their collective skillsets. KG wins it by a mile.


The bold is the exact problem...I suggest anyone that actually thinks that KG is better than Dirk "by a mile" needs to go back and come up with a new way to analyze players. Because your conclusion is way off...

[Pointguard]

No. I said any time a huge underdog team wins...you can call it a fluke if you want. I think the Mavs won because they all had ice water in their veins late in close games. Of course everything and everyone goes into a championship. You could credit Trevor Ariza with the 09 Lakers title if you want to look at things the way you do. Without him they don't win.

So I don't get the point. The Mavs won tight game after tight game the entire playoffs...and I'd credit Dirk the most for that by far.

And you still can't grasp the point. So here it is again. If Dirk can be the clear cut best player and most valuable player...and play by far the most minutes (7 more than anyone else per game)...on a team that, according to you, plays the best defense ever...and wins the title going through all the best players and best teams...then maybe his so called "deficiencies" don't impact things as much as you claim...

You see?
First time I heard the minutes argument. Dirk played 3.5 minutes more than J Kidd's very respectable 37.5 and who guarded Kobe, Wade and Westbrook while leading his team in 3pts, assist and steals. Please name me a player that guarded more explosive guards than that in the history of the playoffs? and still had to be the shooter, distributer, and still get steals. In the last three games - all Dalas wins, Dirk was shooting 38% from the field and wasn't tearing up the boards or guarding Lebron. Terry took up the slack and made more FG's than Dirk and only averaged 4 less ppg! He shot like 20 percentage points higher than Dirk as well in the last three games.
While talking about minutes how about the over and under for the last three games. When Kidd was on the floor he was the difference maker.

In the final three wins.
Game 4 Kidd +12, Dirk +7
Chandler the big minute getter in this game is +7 and gathers 16 rebounds. Dirk shoots 6 for 19 (316%), has 11 rebounds and 3 turnovers. Shawn Marion is 7 for 12 Jason Terry is 6 for 15. Team effort for this close win. Chandler's rebounding, Kidd's defense, Marion's hot streak and Lebron being 3 for 11 are all integral to winning the game. Dirk's clutch shooting is key at the end.

Game 5 Dirk +14, Kidd +13
Dirk shoots 9 for 18 for 29 points, Terry 8 for 12 with 21 points, Kidd has three steals and shoots 4 for 6, Lebron 17 points and Wade 6 for 12 are both held in check. Not really a close game. But Dirk's 29 points standout

Game 6Clinch game
Dirk was -4 in the last game Kidd +18 a 22 point differential when Kidd is on the floor.

Dirk shoots 9 for 27 (33%) for 21 points. 11 rebounds tho.
Jason Terry 11 for 16 for (68%) for 27 points
Team is hot from 3 point land except Dirk who keeps shooting 1 for 7. Wade shoots 6 for 16. Barrera penetrates a lot. Kidd 8 assist. Game was decided in third quarter.

Terry was definitely Ice Water. Kidd was stopping the poster boys for Ice Water in Wade and Kobe. As luck would have it Lebron acted like he came out of Ice Water.

This is not a story of a guy carrying bums at all. Dirk shot bad in the last three games. Chandler, Terry, Marion and Kidd were all had big key moments. Barrea's penetrating was big, as was Stevenson's defense. And Dirk's game had dipped quite a bit in two of the last three wins. Terry was Ice Water and shot significantly better than Dirk did in two of the wins (33% to 50%) and the scoring per minute is like only like 3 points per game differential. Kidd was key in every way except scoring.

Dirk definitely wasn't dominant in two the three last wins. He was their best player, yeah. But he wasn't some giant carrying ants. No way.

[rmt]

I don't disagree with you that all time rankings place a great emphasis on winning. I'm just saying that you must also consider the inherent skills and abilities of these players on both ends of the court.

There's a general stigma for players who have never won and it greatly affects their rank but had they won even one ring, some would jump a tier in the hierarchy of all time greats (Malone Barkley). But because they never won, we don't view them as the absolute elite even if they reach an elite benchmark (Malone 2nd all time in points).

As for my first post, we know Dirk and KG have won a championship so I feel it fair to place more emphasis on their collective skillsets. KG wins it by a mile.

The absolute elite should include winning. How can one be considered top 10 GOAT without winning when winning is the point of the game?

"By a mile" is an exaggeration - it's close. Dirk has gotten his team to the Finals twice. Admittedly, Mavs got screwed by the refs vs MIA, but I consider that payback for the refs screwing SAS in the WCSF. Each has 1 MVP with Dirk having a FMVP. Their careers are on the same level. Now if KG had left MIN earlier, maybe things would have been different, but it was his choice.

[DMAVS41]

First time I heard the minutes argument. Dirk played 3.5 minutes more than J Kidd's very respectable 37.5 and who guarded Kobe, Wade and Westbrook while leading his team in 3pts, assist and steals. Please name me a player that guarded more explosive guards than that in the history of the playoffs? and still had to be the shooter, distributer, and still get steals. In the last three games - all Dalas wins, Dirk was shooting 38% from the field and wasn't tearing up the boards or guarding Lebron. Terry took up the slack and made more FG's than Dirk and only averaged 4 less ppg! He shot like 20 percentage points higher than Dirk as well in the last three games.
While talking about minutes how about the over and under for the last three games. When Kidd was on the floor he was the difference maker.

In the final three wins.
Game 4 Kidd +12, Dirk +7
Chandler the big minute getter in this game is +7 and gathers 16 rebounds. Dirk shoots 6 for 19 (316%), has 11 rebounds and 3 turnovers. Shawn Marion is 7 for 12 Jason Terry is 6 for 15. Team effort for this close win. Chandler's rebounding, Kidd's defense, Marion's hot streak and Lebron being 3 for 11 are all integral to winning the game. Dirk's clutch shooting is key at the end.

Game 5 Dirk +14, Kidd +13
Dirk shoots 9 for 18 for 29 points, Terry 8 for 12 with 21 points, Kidd has three steals and shoots 4 for 6, Lebron 17 points and Wade 6 for 12 are both held in check. Not really a close game. But Dirk's 29 points standout

Game 6Clinch game
Dirk was -4 in the last game Kidd +18 a 22 point differential when Kidd is on the floor.

Dirk shoots 9 for 27 (33%) for 21 points. 11 rebounds tho.
Jason Terry 11 for 16 for (68%) for 27 points
Team is hot from 3 point land except Dirk who keeps shooting 1 for 7. Wade shoots 6 for 16. Barrera penetrates a lot. Kidd 8 assist. Game was decided in third quarter.

Terry was definitely Ice Water. Kidd was stopping the poster boys for Ice Water in Wade and Kobe. As luck would have it Lebron acted like he came out of Ice Water.

This is not a story of a guy carrying bums at all. Dirk shot bad in the last three games. Chandler, Terry, Marion and Kidd were all had big key moments. Barrea's penetrating was big, as was Stevenson's defense. And Dirk's game had dipped quite a bit in two of the last three wins. Terry was Ice Water and shot significantly better than Dirk did in two of the wins (33% to 50%) and the scoring per minute is like only like 3 points per game differential. Kidd was key in every way except scoring.

Dirk definitely wasn't dominant in two the three last wins. He was their best player, yeah. But he wasn't some giant carrying ants. No way.


You are arguing with a ghost. Nobody said Dirk won alone. I simply asked how a team led by Dirk as by far the best player (not even remotely close) with far less than average championship help in terms of players and coaching...won the title.

I asked and you give me an answer that would be true for every single player that won ever. Nobody won alone. When Duncan won in 03...his help actually did help him. When Hakeem won in 94...you could point to so many examples of his help coming through.

So I will ask again and hopefully you will finally answer. Which superstars won titles with less help than Dirk in the last 30 years. Please answer.

[Ballin416]

The bold is the exact problem...I suggest anyone that actually thinks that KG is better than Dirk "by a mile" needs to go back and come up with a new way to analyze players. Because your conclusion is way off...

I like Dirk's game as much as anyone and am happy he got a ring to call his own. He will go down as the best European to ever play.

But in comparison to KG who does everything on the court at an elite level while only averaging a few points less for his career with the ladder part of it focused enitirely on the defensive end, Dirk holds no argument. KG will go down as top20 while Dirk may float around the 30-40.

This won't even be a discussion when they retire as the only comparison would be KG and Duncan with Dirk always being in the next tier.

[miles berg]

Dirk is on a tier above kg. that's not a knock on KG at all.

[DMAVS41]

I like Dirk's game as much as anyone and am happy he got a ring to call his own. He will go down as the best European to ever play.

But in comparison to KG who does everything on the court at an elite level while only averaging a few points less for his career with the ladder part of it focused enitirely on the defensive end, Dirk holds no argument. KG will go down as top20 while Dirk may float around the 30-40.

This won't even be a discussion as the only comparison would be KG and Duncan with Dirk always being in the next tier.

Yep.

I guess these guys are just huge Dirk homers....ROFL

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2012/06/nba-legacy-all-time-25-june-2012.html

But yea...it's just such a crazy notion to think Dirk and KG are on the same tier and a legit debate...:roll:

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Dirk is on a tier above kg. that's not a knock on KG at all.
So what tier is Dirk on? The same tier as Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, etc (top 10-12)?

Because KG is top 15-20 to me.

[Ballin416]

Yep.

I guess these guys are just huge Dirk homers....ROFL

http://nbalegacy.blogspot.com/2012/06/nba-legacy-all-time-25-june-2012.html

But yea...it's just such a crazy notion to think Dirk and KG are on the same tier and a legit debate...:roll:

Perhaps they are Dirk homers. It's the only explanation for why they have him over KG besides its just a blog no different than that of your average joe's.

Maybe it's just hard for me to objectively evaluate a player who's a borderline liability on defense. To each his own I suppose.

[rmt]

I like Dirk's game as much as anyone and am happy he got a ring to call his own. He will go down as the best European to ever play.

But in comparison to KG who does everything on the court at an elite level while only averaging a few points less for his career with the ladder part of it focused enitirely on the defensive end, Dirk holds no argument. KG will go down as top20 while Dirk may float around the 30-40.

This won't even be a discussion when they retire as the only comparison would be KG and Duncan with Dirk always being in the next tier.

Duncan is widely considered top 10. It's KG and Dirk who are on the same level. Each with 1 MVP and 1 ring. No way is Dirk top 40.

[Djahjaga]

At least we all agree Duncan is ahead of both of them! :oldlol:

I think I'm done arguing this. You guys have certainly made a better argument for Dirk than I could have made, not that I ever said or thought it was "KG by a mile" or anything of the sort.

To me, it's clear enough.

[Pointguard]

You are arguing with a ghost. Nobody said Dirk won alone. I simply asked how a team led by Dirk as by far the best player (not even remotely close) with far less than average championship help in terms of players and coaching...won the title.
No, I am not saying alone. I'm saying of equal input. Dirk is better than his teammates but they won the title on defense. You are very familiar with this concept, now you are acting like you brand new. Its the argument you used against Derrick Rose for MVP. You know the argument very well.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6151952&postcount=101. That's you. You said Derrick Rose wasn't top seven player because of that. When Rose shot like Dirk did the last three games of the finals you dogged him bad and called him all types of names. I have those post too. You won't answer who had a tougher assignment than Kidd cause you know I cornered you. Plus I practically have the video tape of you dogging Rose on the exact same principle.

Kidd had the toughest defensive assignment of any perimeter player in the history of the playoffs. You know it, I know it. Plus Kidd lead the team in assist, steals and three pointers as well, he controlled the tempo, he was the main man stopping Miami from running. He was important on both sides of the ball every trip up and down the court. So the distance between Dirk and Kidd is minimal in terms of effectiveness. Wade almost single handily destroyed Dallas in the playoffs before. Kidd's part of the pie was bigger than Dirk's. Terry's part of the pie was big in those last three games.



I asked and you give me an answer that would be true for every single player that won ever. Nobody won alone. When Duncan won in 03...his help actually did help him. When Hakeem won in 94...you could point to so many examples of his help coming through.

So I will ask again and hopefully you will finally answer. Which superstars won titles with less help than Dirk in the last 30 years. Please answer.
I answered that when you first asked. Dirk had more help than you realize. Dirk made hero shots but didn't have the bulk of the responsibility. He's there to score and his rebounding was ok. It was a very simple job. Lebron has way more responsibility than Dirk did despite having much more talent. Lebron lead his team in every category and if he plays bad, like he did against Dallas, the team can't compensate. When Dirk played bad in the finals the team was able to compensate and beat the Wade/Bosh team.

Therein lies my answer.