Bill Russell jumps over a guy

[RaininThrees]

http://deadspin.com/5986780/heres-old-footage-of-bill-russell-jumping-over-a-guy

Didn't see this elsewhere here. Pretty dang impressive.

[rknine15]

:eek: :eek:

wow that old guy could move

[fpliii]

:applause: CavsFTW getting his video posted on deadspin. Congrats!

[pauk]

Now i am starting to at least consider his "I could get my eyes above the rim" claim :eek:

[DatAsh]

:applause: CavsFTW getting his video posted on deadspin. Congrats!

:applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Some people are so baffled by the play (perhaps not expecting Russell to be that athletic) that they claimed I faked it because the slow-motion is suspicious or some B.S. so I just uploaded this version as well, which shows the play in real-time speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

Note, Bill picks up his dribble 25 feet out, and doesn't land back on his feet until he is nearly out of bounds :eek:

[Take Your Lumps]

Holy shit.

People say that Dwight Howard should model his game after Bill Russell all the time...like that's some easy feat.

Dwight couldn't get up and down like that if Jesus himself was on the other side of the court.

[d.bball.guy]

Damn, didn't know he's that athletic! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[teddytwelvetoes]

People sleep on Bill. Guy had sprinter speed and crazy hops. Yet we still have people who started watching hoops during Linsanity talking about how Ryan Hollins could do the same back then :facepalm :roll:

[KG215]

And now ESPN's asking his permission to use the video. That's awesome. At least this shedding more light on the fact that Russell, like Wilt, was an athletic freak of nature. And this is more based on things I've read, but guys like Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson were really good athletes, too. So was Jerry West.

[CavaliersFTW]

People sleep on Bill. Guy had sprinter speed and crazy hops. Yet we still have people who started watching hoops during Linsanity talking about how Ryan Hollins could do the same back then :facepalm :roll:
literally, I've been going across the internet reading responses about the video and while most of them are positive/amazed - there are people out there still so stuck on the stigma of "60s player = no good" that they are trying to convince everyone that big men today do stuff like that all the time...

McGee, one of the most athletic centers in the league today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIzDVFM50ok

It isn't easy for big men with huge wingspans to rebound and run their own fast breaks - let alone leaping across the key like that over a player that steps in front of them - all in the flow of a game

[ThaRegul8r]

Some people are so baffled by the play (perhaps not expecting Russell to be that athletic) that they claimed I faked it because the slow-motion is suspicious or some B.S. so I just uploaded this version as well, which shows the play in real-time speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

Note, Bill picks up his dribble 25 feet out, and doesn't land back on his feet until he is nearly out of bounds :eek:

You realize it's because it's hard evidence that flies in the face of their contention that past players were inferior athletes who simply couldn't compare to the athletic specimens of today. It's damaging to the agenda.

[Round Mound]

Bill Russel Wasn`t The Greatest of Offensive Players but Athletically at 6`10 He had an Insane Vertical Leap, Quickness, Sprinting Power, Agility etc He Was the Best Technical Rebounder Ever Prior to Rodman (go watch his rebounding videos to learn how to rebound) and The Best Defender Ever.

People are Sleeping On 50s,60s and 70s Greats.

[alwaysunny]

It's on yahoo too

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/case-hadn-t-heard-bill-russell-pretty-good-004150534--ncaab.html

[ThaRegul8r]

He Was the Best Technical Rebounder Ever Prior to Rodman (go watch his rebounding videos to learn how to rebound)

If one reads some of the things Russell said about rebounding during the '60s and then reads some of the things Rodman's said about rebounding, one sees that they're saying the exact same thing and using the same approach.

[clayton]

Look at that shitty dribble. :roll:

[ThaRegul8r]

It's on yahoo too

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/case-hadn-t-heard-bill-russell-pretty-good-004150534--ncaab.html

Interesting how quickly it's getting around.

It's a good thing too, as perhaps people will start giving some respect to the greats of yesteryear. It's annoying to me how people feel the necessity to constantly disparage past greats (which smacks of insecurity), and then these same people will turn around and whine about how their favorite players are being "hated" on. I wish people would just appreciate greatness when and wherever it is instead of just whomever their favorite player(s) happens to be.

[La Frescobaldi]

literally, I've been going across the internet reading responses about the video and while most of them are positive/amazed - there are people out there still so stuck on the stigma of "60s player = no good" that they are trying to convince everyone that big men today do stuff like that all the time...

McGee, one of the most athletic centers in the league today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIzDVFM50ok

It isn't easy for big men with huge wingspans to rebound and run their own fast breaks - let alone leaping across the key like that over a player that steps in front of them - all in the flow of a game
There are still a few of us that remember.
People been laughing at my stories of Chamberlain, Russell, Thurmond, Jerry West all these years.
Shoot just the other day was a whole bunch of people right here on this board trying to say Patrick Ewing would eat up these guys.
He never went to the top, CAVs, he just wasn't THOSE guys.
Ewing never skied like Wilt after a blocked shot, never came remotely close to #13. He couldn't rebound like Wilt, couldn't intimidate like Nate, just couldn't.

Straight up who thinks Patrick Ewing ever saw a single day when he could run with Bill Russell? He never did.

And Ewing is one of the greats.

[bmd]

Why are people making out over this?

It's not like he threw it down... he layed the ball up... and he is like 7 feet tall.

It's not surprising he could lay the ball up from the dotted line...

[LikeABosh]

5' 9" white guy

[CavaliersFTW]

Interesting how quickly it's getting around.

It's a good thing too, as perhaps people will start giving some respect to the greats of yesteryear. It's annoying to me how people feel the necessity to constantly disparage past greats (which smacks of insecurity), and then these same people will turn around and whine about how their favorite players are being "hated" on. I wish people would just appreciate greatness when and wherever it is instead of just whomever their favorite player(s) happens to be.
Type "Bill Russell" in google search under the filter of "past 24 hours"

It's all over the internet now

[ThaRegul8r]

Why are people making out over this?

It's not like he threw it down... he layed the ball up... and he is like 7 feet tall.

He isn't (and was never) 7 feet tall.

This should be common knowledge to anyone who knows anything about basketball. Even a simple Google search would have told you he wasn't 7 feet tall.

[CavaliersFTW]

Why are people making out over this?

It's not like he threw it down... he layed the ball up... and he is like 7 feet tall.

It's not surprising he could lay the ball up from the dotted line...
:lol so mad

[bmd]

He isn't (and was never) 7 feet tall.

This should be common knowledge to anyone who knows anything about basketball. Even a simple Google search would have told you he wasn't 7 feet tall.:roll: It's hyperbole.

I didn't mean he is literally 7 feet, 0 inches tall.

I know he's not literally that tall. He's like 6'9", 6'10".

[fpliii]

Look at that shitty dribble. :roll:

:facepalm

[bmd]

:lol so madI'm not mad. Why would I be? I keep it real.

He layed the ball up from the dotted line. He looked graceful doing it, but that is literally what he did.

[DonDadda59]

Wow :eek: :bowdown:

Just the speed that he got up the court with was impressive, but then the leap... it was like watching a Panther in the wild. Morgan Freeman was a bad mamajamma in his youth :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm not mad. Why would I be? I keep it real.

He layed the ball up from the dotted line. He looked graceful doing it, but that is literally what he did.

He looked graceful doing it, but it was still a layup from the dotted line.
If it's nothing but a graceful layup why is the sports world creaming their pants over it right now?

[jaydacris]

I thought Bill Gates jumping over a chair was more impressive
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Bill-Gates-Jumping-Over-Chair.gif

[La Frescobaldi]

:lol so mad
You know another clip you've got that really rocks and should be a gif?
Chamberlain volleyball bump in that college game, where he goes to top of backboard on that blocked shot

[bmd]

If it's nothing but a graceful layup why is the sports world creaming their pants over it right now?Because it's Bill Russell and people cream their pants over even the slightest hint of athletic ability from past legends.

[CavaliersFTW]

Because it's Bill Russell and people cream their pants over even the slightest hint of athletic ability from past legends.
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/11/110013/2304795-good_good_let_the_butthurt_flow_through_you_1.jpg

[fpliii]

Something's telling me this is only the tip of the iceberg...CavsFTW has a lot of footage, so I feel like he's going to be dropping some major bombs soon.

:cheers:

[bmd]

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/11/110013/2304795-good_good_let_the_butthurt_flow_through_you_1.jpgh ttp://kylasgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/i-aint-even-mad.jpg


I acknowledge amazing feats when I see them.

If Bill Russell dunked from a foot inside the free throw line, then I would be like yeah, that dude could sky.

But a layup from the dotted line? He glided pretty nicely, but it was still a layup from the dotted line.

P.S... picking up your dribble from around the 3-point line is very common. I don't even know why that needed to be mentioned...

[KG215]

Why are people making out over this?

It's not like he threw it down... he layed the ball up... and he is like 7 feet tall.

It's not surprising he could lay the ball up from the dotted line...
:oldlol:

He jumped from damn near the FT line AND jumped over a guy....after grabbing the defensive rebound on one end and dribbling coast-to-coast.

[KG215]

http://kylasgifs.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/i-aint-even-mad.jpg


I acknowledge amazing feats when I see them.

If Bill Russell dunked from a foot inside the free throw line, then I would be like yeah, that dude could sky.

But a layup from the dotted line? He glided pretty nicely, but it was still a layup from the dotted line.

P.S... picking up your dribble from around the 3-point line is very common. I don't even know why that needed to be mentioned...
You seem to be forgetting he jumped over another player on the play.

[inclinerator]

this edited vid getting alot of publicity!

[fpliii]

this edited vid getting alot of publicity!

:facepalm

[inclinerator]

Something's telling me this is only the tip of the iceberg...CavsFTW has a lot of footage, so I feel like he's going to be dropping some major bombs soon.

:cheers:
not really, if he had anything spectacular it would have been out by now

[CavaliersFTW]

It's like that time we first saw Yoda bust out his lightsaber in Attack of the Clones...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8vqjqnXBk1rv5zh8o1_400.gif

Bill is the Yoda of the NBA... until now we just saw him in puppet form.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zdrOLheajzE/USljuN-c5nI/AAAAAAAAEPI/Ds5zbE5mypU/s800/Bill%2520Russell%2520Athleticism.gif

[bmd]

:oldlol:

He jumped from damn near the FT line AND jumped over a guy....after grabbing the defensive rebound on one end and dribbling coast-to-coast.Near the free throw line is a little misleading.

He was a good 2 feet away from the free throw line:

http://i47.tinypic.com/lxtg3.jpg


And then he LAYED THE BALL UP... he didn't even dunk!, and he landed right by the out of bounds line:


http://i45.tinypic.com/2lvfmdf.jpg


Oh, and as far as "jumping over" somebody... that isn't true. Here:

http://i45.tinypic.com/akvqcp.jpg

He jumped to the side of him. If you think he jumped over him, your eyes are deceiving you.


"After grabbing the offensive rebound... dribbling coast to coast" yada yada.. Now you are just trying to make it seem more impressive than it was.

[bmd]

You seem to be forgetting he jumped over another player on the play.No he didn't. See above.

The whole reason he kicked his leg out near the end of the layup is because his right leg hit the guy and knocked it out from under him a little bit.

[Rake2204]

I acknowledge amazing feats when I see them.

If Bill Russell dunked from a foot inside the free throw line, then I would be like yeah, that dude could sky.

But a layup from the dotted line? He glided pretty nicely, but it was still a layup from the dotted line.

P.S... picking up your dribble from around the 3-point line is very common. I don't even know why that needed to be mentioned...I have to be real, I am largely in agreement with you here. The bigger surprise to me is, who thought Bill Russell couldn't do this?

I suppose I'll answer my own question - I'm guessing there's a lot of folks out there who don't know a lot about Bill Russell. But for those who are fans of the NBA and its history, this is a cool clip, but is it really that stunning and amazing? One of the greatest players and athletes of all-time, standing 6'9'', dribbled down the court, picked up his dribble and completed a finger roll while he was in college. Pointing out certain normal things such as "he picked up his dribble at the three point line" feels forced.

Is the clip cool? Yes. Am I thankful for a clear clip from so long ago hitting YouTube? Definitely. But was I truly amazed by this clip? I can't say that I was. Lastly, I know this will sound like I'm being a stickler, but it doesn't really look like Russell jumped over that defender at all. I mean, it looks like he could have with ease, but it appeared as if that fellow was not really in his flight path.

Fun clip either way.

[CavaliersFTW]

Near the free throw line is a little misleading.

He was a good 2 feet away from the free throw line:

http://i47.tinypic.com/lxtg3.jpg


And then he LAYED THE BALL UP... he didn't even dunk!, and he landed right by the out of bounds line:


http://i45.tinypic.com/2lvfmdf.jpg


Oh, and as far as "jumping over" somebody... that isn't true. Here:

http://i45.tinypic.com/akvqcp.jpg

He jumped to the side of him. If you think he jumped over him, your eyes are deceiving you.


"After grabbing the offensive rebound... dribbling coast to coast" yada yada.. Now you are just trying to make it seem more impressive than it was.
Writhing in pain and frustration :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[bmd]

I have to be real, I am largely in agreement with you here. The bigger surprise to me is, who thought Bill Russell couldn't do this?

I suppose I'll answer my own question - I'm guessing there's a lot of folks out there who don't know a lot about Bill Russell. But for those who are fans of the NBA and its history, this is a cool clip, but is it really that stunning and amazing? One of the greatest players and athletes of all-time, standing 6'9'', dribbled down the court, picked up his dribble and completed a finger roll while he was in college. Pointing out certain normal things such as "he picked up his dribble at the three point line" feels forced.

Is the clip cool? Yes. Am I thankful for a clear clip from so long ago hitting YouTube? Definitely. But was I truly amazed by this clip? I can't say that I was. Lastly, I know this will sound like I'm being a stickler, but it doesn't really look like Russell jumped over that defender at all. I mean, it looks like he could have with ease, but it appeared as if that fellow was not really in his flight path.

Fun clip either way.I am in full agreement with you here. It IS a cool clip, and Bill Russell was an awesome player. But nothing here is really surprising or amazing.

I feel like people are exaggerating this into some great feat just because it's Bill Russell.

And for the record, I love Bill Russell. But I also like to be realistic.

[Jameerthefear]

Nice job CavFTW

[bmd]

Writhing in pain and frustration :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:I guess when you have no real response to disprove what I'm saying, you have to resort to saying I'm "writhing in pain and frustration".

I mean, this thread title is "Bill Russell jumps over a guy"... when he clearly did not jump over the guy.

He may have been able to if he was in his way and he opened his legs up Vince Carter style... but he didn't jump over him.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Better than LeBron

[NumberSix]

Short white guy

[DonDadda59]

Short white guy

This. Jumping over Black midget>>>

http://heatbball.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/a11.gif

[DCL]

:biggums:

quick as sh!t running down the floor. he ran the fastbreak all by himself as the center, grabbing a board and going coast to coast... probably unheard of during that era.

sh!t, still looks nice if he did that in today's game.

[boozehound]

Some people are so baffled by the play (perhaps not expecting Russell to be that athletic) that they claimed I faked it because the slow-motion is suspicious or some B.S. so I just uploaded this version as well, which shows the play in real-time speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM

Note, Bill picks up his dribble 25 feet out, and doesn't land back on his feet until he is nearly out of bounds :eek:
yeah, people are idiots if they dismiss russell, as I posted in the original thread with this footage. regardless of the speed of the film, look at his coast to coast dribble and his finish. Dude took off from near the ft line and went over a dude.

[pauk]

I am kindof with bmd on this one.

[DuMa]

wow. that was impressive. I'd put that up there with LBJ's FT line dunk in a game against teh Bucks. its amazing to see a guy that size fly down the court and jump so far.

[CavaliersFTW]

Hello Dan the Man,
ESPN would like clearance to use this video. It is a fantastic clip and we are curious about where you got it from and if you own the rights to it. If this clip is not owned by you, can you tell us who owns it and how we contact them for clearance? If you do own the rights to it, would we be cleared to use on all our shows and platforms (including web)? How would you like us to credit/courtesy this footage and what other restrictions would there be for use? Please advise.

Bill Russell making ESPN highlights 60 years after he played :bowdown:

[fpliii]

Bill Russell making ESPN highlights 60 years after he played :bowdown:

Legend.

[no pun intended]

Damn CavaliersFTW, you have officially gone viral.

ISH is proud of you.

[steve franchise]

Thank You CavaliersFTW, you made us ISHiots proud. :applause: (You should post a link to ISH on your vids so the server can crash again lol)

[d.bball.guy]

First, ISH getting the shoutout from TNT during the ASG and now, CavaliersFTW making us proud. :applause: :applause: :bowdown: :bowdown: :cheers: :cheers:

[jlip]

Bill Russell making ESPN highlights 60 years after he played :bowdown:
:cheers: :applause: :bowdown:

You should make a thread just to show this post.

[CavaliersFTW]

Don't thank me thank him

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cIeZzHU43Fc/T2VliXN4qSI/AAAAAAAADPM/Jglt_bFO3ng/s800/Corbis-IH161161.jpg

all I did was locate the clip, he did all the hard work

[CavaliersFTW]

:cheers: :applause: :bowdown:

You should make a thread just to show this post.
nah, you guys can make a thread about it if you want just to alert everyone to be on an ESPN watch for the clip

I don't know what show or when they'd use that clip - other than that I don't really know if it's thread worthy - i mean it's not like they promised me they'd use it or anything, they might not deliver...

still cool that they subscribed to my youtube channel and messaged me though :lol

[Djahjaga]

Congrats CavsFan!

[atljonesbro]

Only 8 teams in the league, divide his rings by about 4 which should round out at about 3. Impressive but not mind boggling.

[fpliii]

Only 8 teams in the league, divide his rings by about 4 which should round out at about 3. Impressive but not mind boggling.

:facepalm

[Lebron23]

Prime Russell would still be a dominant Center in today's NBA.

[Rolando]

Don't thank me thank him

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cIeZzHU43Fc/T2VliXN4qSI/AAAAAAAADPM/Jglt_bFO3ng/s800/Corbis-IH161161.jpg

all I did was locate the clip, he did all the hard work

Nice photo.:applause: Obviously his head is at rim level and ovbiously he is on his way down after dunking. Looks like he is just in college at that point to. Nowhere near his physical prime.

[Psileas]

And then he LAYED THE BALL UP... he didn't even dunk!, and he landed right by the out of bounds line:

So what if it was a lay up? It only makes sense that the ease with which he lays the ball up shows that he would have dunked the ball if he tried to. When he takes off, he already holds the ball in a position indicating that he'd lay it up.

BTW, am I the only one who had seen this clip way before it went viral?

[2swift4u]

to me it doesn't look like he actually jumped over the guy.

[stephanieg]

I don't understand why people are supposedly amazed by this. Breaking news: human beings could dribble and play basketball 60 years ago. Film at 11.

If you want, you can torrent old '60s games.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I guess when you have no real response to disprove what I'm saying, you have to resort to saying I'm "writhing in pain and frustration".

I mean, this thread title is "Bill Russell jumps over a guy"... when he clearly did not jump over the guy.

He may have been able to if he was in his way and he opened his legs up Vince Carter style... but he didn't jump over him.

6'10 dude went coast to coast at an amazing speed, jumped almost from the FT line, went over a guy, making it look easy, didn't even extend his arm, could've easily dunked it but probably didn't want to because players weren't really about the flash back then.. and you're hating? :facepalm Stay mad lol

If LeBron was doing something remotely close to this nowadays some people would be drooling (wait that actually happened)

And he's doing this with some sh!tty shoes, without advanced suplements and so on.

[atljonesbro]

:facepalm
I dont get it.. 3.75 x more teams 3.75x less chance of ring. If you count those rings equal to players in a morr modern setting you have to use the same formula for all players. Lets uses Kobe as our example. In an 8 team league he'd have 3.75x less teams so multiple his rings by 3.75. WOAH THATS ABOUT 19 RINGS FOR KOBE IN RUSSELLS ERA!!

[Psileas]

I dont get it.. 3.75 x more teams 3.75x less chance of ring. If you count those rings equal to players in a morr modern setting you have to use the same formula for all players. Lets uses Kobe as our example. In an 8 team league he'd have 3.75x less teams so multiple his rings by 3.75. WOAH THATS ABOUT 19 RINGS FOR KOBE IN RUSSELLS ERA!!

And here lies the absurdity. So, I guess winning 2 titles in a row in the NCAA is the equivalent of winning 20 in a row in the NBA, since the NCAA has 10 times more teams...

[atljonesbro]

And here lies the absurdity. So, I guess winning 2 titles in a row in the NCAA is the equivalent of winning 20 in a row in the NBA, since the NCAA has 10 times more teams...It would be ten times easier so from a mathematical standpoint, yes. But there's no way you could play that many years in college.

[Psileas]

It would be ten times easier so from a mathematical standpoint, yes. But there's no way you could play that many years in college.

A player no, but a team definitely.

Back to Russell, you ignore the fact that there were 14 teams by the time Russell was in his last season and that still didn't prevent him from winning once again. After Russell, it took 18 seasons for another team to just repeat, let alone 8-peat.

However, the problem with this overall logic is that what really matters is the total number of title contenders, not the number of teams. Even George Mikan's NBA had more teams than Russell's NBA, but it wasn't harder to win the title, since there were not more contending teams. In today's NBA, only a small handful of teams eye the title seriously. A few more have a small chance and the others none at all. You could remove the bottom 20-22 of the NBA's 30 teams and not boost at all the chances of the rest to win the title.

[jlip]

I dont get it.. 3.75 x more teams 3.75x less chance of ring. If you count those rings equal to players in a morr modern setting you have to use the same formula for all players. Lets uses Kobe as our example. In an 8 team league he'd have 3.75x less teams so multiple his rings by 3.75. WOAH THATS ABOUT 19 RINGS FOR KOBE IN RUSSELLS ERA!!

In today's era you only play 4 teams in the playoffs in route to a title, not the other 29. 14 of the 30 teams don't even make the playoffs, and add absolutely nothing to the difficulty of winning a championship because they are not even competing once the playoffs begin. In addition to that, 8 of the 16 who make the playoffs are in the other conference. Even if a team makes the Finals and win, they'll never have to compete against 7 of those 8 because other teams have already eliminated them. Again, since there are only 4 rounds you only face 4 teams in route to a title today, not 29.

Also look at this comparison (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5327419&postcount=63)I did between the 60s Celtics title runs and the 90s Bulls title runs.

[BuffaloBill]

Why are people making out over this?

It's not like he threw it down... he layed the ball up... and he is like 7 feet tall.

It's not surprising he could lay the ball up from the dotted line...



:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

Left Handed!!!!.....

Coast to Coast!!...

Barely any Bigs the past 30 years could do that.

[Rake2204]

Left Handed!!!!.....

Coast to Coast!!...

Barely any Bigs the past 30 years could do that.I cannot pick up on sarcasm well so I apologize in advance if you're kidding, but Bill Russell was left-handed. Still, most centers aren't doing that with their strong hand either.

[bmd]

6'10 dude went coast to coast at an amazing speed, jumped almost from the FT line, went over a guy, making it look easy, didn't even extend his arm, could've easily dunked it but probably didn't want to because players weren't really about the flash back then.. and you're hating? :facepalm Stay mad lol

If LeBron was doing something remotely close to this nowadays some people would be drooling (wait that actually happened)

And he's doing this with some sh!tty shoes, without advanced suplements and so on.1. He wasn't almost at the free throw line. He was a good 2 feet past the free throw line.

2. He never jumped over the guy. He jumped next to him.

3. He layed it up.


I'm sorry, but you are seeing what you want to see, and hype it up because its Bill Russell footage from the 50's.

If a 6'10" guy layed the ball up from the dotted line today, nobody would bat an eye.

This is pretty cool footage of a great player, but those of you hyping this footage up as some amazing feat of athleticism are reaching. Clearly he is athletic, but you don't need to lie and say things like it was basically from the free throw line and he jumped over a guy and he could have dunked it but he didn't feel like it when I'm watching the video with my own eyes and know that you are full of it.

[CavaliersFTW]

1. He wasn't almost at the free throw line. He was a good 2 feet past the free throw line.

2. He never jumped over the guy. He jumped next to him.

3. He layed it up.


I'm sorry, but you are seeing what you want to see, and hype it up because its Bill Russell footage from the 50's.

If a 6'10" guy layed the ball up from the dotted line today, nobody would bat an eye.

This is pretty cool footage of a great player, but those of you hyping this footage up as some amazing feat of athleticism are reaching. Clearly he is athletic, but you don't need to lie and say things like it was basically from the free throw line and he jumped over a guy and he could have dunked it but he didn't feel like it when I'm watching the video with my own eyes and know that you are full of it.
As in; ESPN, NBC, ABC, Yahoo sports, and another 200k people in the past 48 hours who've seen it then reposted to their sports blogs and messages boards with impressions of awe and amazement? It isn't just ISH... the entire sports world is not on your side right now.

[Rake2204]

As in; ESPN, NBC, ABC, Yahoo sports, and another 200k people in the past 48 hours who've seen it then reposted to their sports blogs and messages boards with impressions of awe and amazement? It isn't just ISH... the entire sports world is not on your side right now.I can honestly still see where he's coming from. It's a great play by itself, I'm not sure it needs all the extra stretches to be added to it in an attempt to make it even grander. It stands just fine on its own. Saying he basically jumped from the free throw line, drawing attention to where he picked up his dribble (which is not an uncommon pickup point), and insisting he jumped clear over the defender has the potential to cheapen things a little bit.

What's one of the issues many people tend to have with accounts of players from years past? The stretching of the truth. This is a spectacularly clear video of one of the greatest athletes and skilled basketball players in history going coast to coast and swooping in for a layup. The video proof is there, yet we're still trying to stretch it into something more (he jumped over a guy, pretty much took off from the free throw line). It reminds me of the Gus Johnson thread from a few weeks ago (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=290143). Johnson was great and is often forgotten, but to label him the original Michael Jordan and LeBron James (as you did) creates only more skepticism.

I think you are doing something very cool in sharing your clips. They're goldmines and I think they speak for themselves. I just kind of wish you'd let them do the talking. I don't think everything has to be a "take that" response to the few folks who wish to believe players of years past couldn't play. With respect, it's a little off-putting.

[CavaliersFTW]

I can honestly still see where he's coming from. It's a great play by itself, I'm not sure it needs all the extra stretches to be added to it in an attempt to make it even grander. It stands just fine on its own. Saying he basically jumped from the free throw line, drawing attention to where he picked up his dribble (which is not an uncommon pickup point), and insisting he jumped clear over the defender has the potential to cheapen things a little bit.

One of the issues many people tend to have with accounts of players from years past? The stretching of the truth. This is a spectacularly clear video of one of the greatest athletes and skilled basketball players in history going coast to coast and swooping in for a layup. The video proof is there, yet we're still trying to stretch it into something more (he jumped over a guy, pretty much took off from the free throw line). It reminds me of the Gus Johnson thread from a few weeks ago. Johnson was great and is often forgotten, but to label him the original Michael Jordan and LeBron James (as you did) creates only more skepticism.

I think you are doing something very cool in sharing your clips. They're goldmines and I think they speak for themselves. I just kind of wish you'd let them do the talking. I don't think everything has to be a "take that" response to the few folks who wish to believe players of years past couldn't play. It's a little off-putting.
He took off near the free throw line did he not? His leg glides over a defenders back does it not?

I'm adding no more sensationalist descriptive terms than what is always seen in modern highlights. That's how people headline highlights it doesn't matter what era it's from. I'm not stretching the truth simply because it's old footage - I'm just mirroring how modern footage is brought into public view. It's those key words that people identify with that help get my videos seen. If I had called the video "Bill Russell rebounds and makes a layup" the video might be lucky to have 650 views right now because it's those boring titles that prevent videos from getting noticed. People look for sensational descriptions before they decide to watch something - it's just the way it is, I understand why you feel the way that you do but like I said, I'm just mirroring how everyone else treats highlights.

[bmd]

As in; ESPN, NBC, ABC, Yahoo sports, and another 200k people in the past 48 hours who've seen it then reposted to their sports blogs and messages boards with impressions of awe and amazement? It isn't just ISH... the entire sports world is not on your side right now.Thats because it is cool footage of Bill Russell... and he did seem to glide through the air. It looks pretty cool.

But the problem I have is that many of you aren't just talking about the cool old-school footage... you guys are using it to hype up and exaggerate the play in order to try to make some point about old-school players like Bill Russell.

And it is deceitful to say thing like he jumped over a guy, which he clearly didn't, in order to further whatever agenda it is that you have.

So once again, awesome footage, but completely exaggerated interpretation.

[bmd]

He took off near the free throw line did he not? His leg glides over a defenders back does it not?

I'm adding no more sensationalist descriptive terms than what is always seen in modern highlights. That's how people headline highlights it doesn't matter what era it's from. I'm not stretching the truth simply because it's old footage - I'm just mirroring how modern footage is brought into public view. It's those key words that people identify with that help get my videos seen. If I had called the video "Bill Russell rebounds and makes a layup" the video might be lucky to have 650 views right now because it's those boring titles that prevent videos from getting noticed. People look for sensational descriptions before they decide to watch something - it's just the way it is, I understand why you feel the way that you do but like I said, I'm just mirroring how everyone else treats highlights....but he didn't jump over a guy...

It's one thing to use hyperbole, and another thing to just straight-up not tell the truth.

[Rake2204]

He took off near the free throw line did he not? His leg glides over a defenders back does it not?

I'm adding no more sensationalist descriptive terms than what is always seen in modern highlights. That's how people headline highlights it doesn't matter what era it's from. I'm not stretching the truth simply because it's old footage - I'm just mirroring how modern footage is brought into public view. It's those key words that people identify with that help get my videos seen. If I had called the video "Bill Russell rebounds and makes a layup" the video might be lucky to have 650 views right now because it's those boring titles that prevent videos from getting noticed. People look for sensational descriptions before they decide to watch somethingI can definitely understand that angle. I've uploaded a few videos myself and I notice the difference between labeling something as "Rich Mahorn Plays Defense" versus "Rick Mahorn Makes Smartest Play Ever". I totally agree sensationalizing the title of a play will assist with views.

That said, if you admit you're stretching the truth simply for the fact of drawing attention to your video, can you truly fault some posters (bmd) for stepping up and clarifying that Russell did not in fact jump over a defender and more or less completed an athletic layup from a pretty standard distance? It's strange to see you openly mock a poster just because he was already aware of Russell's atleticism and subsequently wasn't completely blown away by the clip you're sharing.

[CavaliersFTW]

Thats because it is cool footage of Bill Russell... and he did seem to glide through the air. It looks pretty cool.

But the problem I have is that many of you aren't just talking about the cool old-school footage... you guys are using it to hype up and exaggerate the play in order to try to make some point about old-school players like Bill Russell.

And it is deceitful to say thing like he jumped over a guy, which he clearly didn't, in order to further whatever agenda it is that you have.

So once again, awesome footage, but completely exaggerated interpretation.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-02-26/bill-russell-highlight-san-francisco-boston-celtics-red-auerbach-bob-cousy

Sports pages all over the internet are not disputing the fact that Bill Russell jumps over an opponent so why are you?

In fact they are taking the headline and running with it - comparing it to Lebron's similar leap frog of an opponent

The sports world's reaction tells me what I did was correctly describe the play.

[Poetry]

Don't thank me thank him

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cIeZzHU43Fc/T2VliXN4qSI/AAAAAAAADPM/Jglt_bFO3ng/s800/Corbis-IH161161.jpg

all I did was locate the clip, he did all the hard work

Still, you deserve some credit for shining a light on his abilities :cheers: Keep up the good work.

[bmd]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-02-26/bill-russell-highlight-san-francisco-boston-celtics-red-auerbach-bob-cousy

Sports pages all over the internet are not disputing the fact that Bill Russell jumps over an opponent so why are you?

In fact they are taking the headline and running with it - comparing it to Lebron's similar leap frog of an opponent

The sports world's reaction tells me what I did was correctly describe the play.Then they are wrong, too. It's not the first time the media has been wrong.

I've watched the video many times, and it is clear he did not jump over anybody.

He jumps, a guy was slightly in his way, and his right leg hits the guy and knocks that leg out from under him as he's making the layup. He jumped to the left of the guy.

It is clear as day. If you deny that account, then you are just wrong.

I already posted one screenshot:

http://i45.tinypic.com/akvqcp.jpg

It's clear he is behind the guy.

[jlip]

CavaliersFTW, this video has basically gone viral. In just 3 days it already has over 212,000 hits. I can't wait for the official Russell mix. You might actually show some stuff that ESPN has never seen.

[Rake2204]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-02-26/bill-russell-highlight-san-francisco-boston-celtics-red-auerbach-bob-cousy

Sports pages all over the internet are not disputing the fact that Bill Russell jumps over an opponent so why are you?

In fact they are taking the headline and running with it - comparing it to Lebron's similar leap frog of an opponent

The sports world's reaction tells me what I did was correctly describe the play.I kind of feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. People are making those headlines for the same reason you're making yours - it's close to the truth while not entirely being the truth and it's going to get people's attention, which in turn is going to increase viewership on each of those sites, which is how those sites survive. Further, the clip is cool even though it's not Russell really jumping over someone, so it still works.

It's incredibly clear from your clip that Russell at no point jumped over a defender in the manner most of us are assuming. It was not akin to LeBron James over John Lucas and it most definitely was not Vince Carter over Frederic Weis. It was more similar to the countless moments in NBA games where a player jumps, a defender remains grounded nearby, and the offensive player's body is technically higher than the standing defender. If we want to argue semantics and say 1/10th of Russell's leg was technically above a part of that defender's shoulder, then I suppose I may not be able to argue such a minute detail. But to suggest this was a true hurdle is preposterous, regardless of whether websites copy your video's admittedly sensationalized title in hopes of convincing people otherwise.

With such great content, I feel as though you should be better than this. Share the clips, be real about them, be open to discussion (as you are here).

[WillC]

It's great that your work is getting some acknowledgement, CavaliersFTW. You really deserve it. Your videos are truly outstanding and HUGELY appreciated by myself and others.

I obsessively read about the players from the 1950s and 60s so its great to have some new footage to enjoy.

Also, I should add that the success couldn't happen to a greater guy; you're modest and mature, and deserving of the recognition.

Keep up the great work.

PS - I told you that a Russell highlight video would be much appreciated. It looks like I was right! :cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

Then they are wrong, too. It's not the first time the media has been wrong.

I've watched the video many times, and it is clear he did not jump over anybody.

He jumps, a guy was slightly in his way, and his right leg hits the guy and knocks that leg out from under him as he's making the layup. He jumped to the left of the guy.

It is clear as day. If you deny that account, then you are just wrong.

I already posted one screenshot:

http://i45.tinypic.com/akvqcp.jpg

It's clear he is behind the guy.

You post a pic of Bill hovering directly over that guys back - and your trying to say that it's proof he didn't jump over him? :facepalm

[Rolando]

He jumped over him. :applause: :pimp:

[bmd]

You post a pic of Bill hovering directly over that guys back - and your trying to say that it's proof he didn't jump over him? :facepalmHis right leg is behind the guy. You can see that he didn't jump over him.

Could he have? Maybe. It looked like he was high enough.

But did he actually jump over him? No, he didn't.

[CavaliersFTW]

I kind of feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. People are making those headlines for the same reason you're making yours - it's close to the truth while not entirely being the truth and it's going to get people's attention, which in turn is going to increase viewership on each of those sites, which is how those sites survive. Further, the clip is cool even though it's not Russell really jumping over someone, so it still works.

It's incredibly clear from your clip that Russell at no point jumped over a defender in the manner most of us are assuming. It was not akin to LeBron James over John Lucas and it most definitely was not Vince Carter over Frederic Weis. It was more similar to the countless moments in NBA games where a player jumps, a defender remains grounded nearby, and the offensive player's body is technically higher than the standing defender. If we want to argue semantics and say 1/10th of Russell's leg was technically above a part of that defender's shoulder, then I suppose I may not be able to argue such a minute detail. But to suggest this was a true hurdle is preposterous, regardless of whether websites copy your video's admittedly sensationalized title in hopes of convincing people otherwise.

With such great content, I feel as though you should be better than this. Share the clips, be real about them, be open to discussion (as you are here).
I think there is just a difference of opinion - as I feel more than 1/10th of 1 leg is over that defender. I think at least 1/4 of his body is over that defender, including one of his legs in it's entirety. To me, that's enough to constitute as jumping over someone. I see why you think I'm overreacting since you perceive the play so differently. I think all we can do then is agree to disagree here :cheers:

[Rake2204]

I think there is just a difference of opinion - as I feel more than 1/10th of 1 leg is over that defender. I think at least 1/4 of his body is over that defender, including one of his legs in it's entirety. To me, that's enough to constitute as jumping over someone. I see why you think I'm overreacting since you perceive the play so differently. I think all we can do then is agree to disagree here :cheers:I can vibe with that. Despite our disagreements, I can see where you're coming from.

[Ballin416]

Amazing speed and agility for a man that size. Just couldn't picture any bigs today doing that.

[bmd]

Amazing speed and agility for a man that size. Just couldn't picture any bigs today doing that.There are a ton of players today his size that can do that. LeBron, Durant, Faried, Blake Griffin, Josh Smith, Amare Stoudemire, etc. off the top of my head.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

There are a ton of players today his size that can do that. LeBron, Durant, Faried, Blake Griffin, Josh Smith, Amare Stoudemire, etc. off the top of my head.
Russell measured ~ 6 9.6 without shoes.

Lebron measured 6 7.25 when drafted it's possible he's grown half an inch but still quite a bit shorter than russell. Griffin 6 8.5, smith = 6 7, amare = 6 8.5. faried = 6 6 So russell is taller than all of them.

btw of those 5 guys Lebron is the only one i could see doing it and he is a top 10 athlete in the history of the sport.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Amazing speed and agility for a man that size. Just couldn't picture any bigs today doing that.
Very fluid as well.

[Rake2204]

Amazing speed and agility for a man that size. Just couldn't picture any bigs today doing that.To be fair, there's not going to be a lot of men that size in any decade who could do something like that. Bill Russell was special. I think it speaks more toward what Russell could do as opposed to what modern big men cannot.

I think it'd kind of be like saying I'd like to see a modern big man do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18. It likely won't happen because guys like Robinson and Russell are extra special. Surely, there's bigs who will complete something similar, but usually slower and less fluid, such as:

McGee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_dqONoCf-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxYkI6ht3wA

Drummond: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiX-Afe3Uug

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQJYLsBJN0

O'Neal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riV3hvW8M64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAglVkIIy0Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b866hh4apUI

Noah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpgMHUHJZNU

But none of them will rival what Russell and Robinson did because both of those guys were beyond special in terms of athleticism and grace. They're exceptional, and it's not easy to duplicate.

[Ballin416]

To be fair, there's not going to be a lot of men that size in any decade who could do something like that. Bill Russell was special. I think it speaks more toward what Russell could do as opposed to what modern big men cannot.

But none of them will rival what Russell and Robinson did because both of those guys were beyond special in terms of athleticism and grace. They're exceptional, and it's not easy to duplicate.

Coast to coast finish in a matter of 3 or 4 seconds, it is indeed exceptional.

And they say Howard should mirror his game after him but there's no way Howard or any big could replicate that, bad back or not.

[alwaysunny]

CavaliersFTW, you probably answered this question like hundred times, but where did you get all these footage?

[CavaliersFTW]

CavaliersFTW, you probably answered this question like hundred times, but where did you get all these footage?
I just constantly look for footage - it's as simple as that, there isn't one singular source, so the best I can narrow it down is; "The Internet"

I know which team a player from that era played for, which colleges, and for which seasons, so I search for games... documentaries... anything with key words that could lead me to find clips containing highlights of these players. That particular clip happened to come from a San Francisco Dons documentary.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Ppl still find ways to hate and try to discredit one of the greatest NBA players and athletes. :facepalm

Haters gonna hate..

[atljonesbro]

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhE1iNiyGK2z0MMx3s

Vid made it on worldstar impressive.

[bdreason]

Impressive.

[ai9]

that was nice, but come on, laying it up from the dotted line at 6 foot 9 is nothing special. hell, iverson did that all the time

[Asukal]

oh look players back in the 60s could do it too. I thought we had cavemen playing back in those days... :rolleyes:

[305Baller]

Nice...

[CavaliersFTW]

ESPN facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/NBAonESPN?fref=ts

[bdreason]

TNT using this clip on the show tonight.

[CavaliersFTW]

TNT using this clip on the show tonight.
damn i missed it :(

anyone finds the inside the NBA episode or segment online please post the link here so we can see it!

[unbreakable]

wow i knew he was athletic but i had no idea he could hard-dribble up the court like that full speed...

dat stride ... omg... need more footage!!!! how the fukkkk does this dude cavssftw have footage? he an nba insider ??

[CavaliersFTW]

anyone able to explain to me how they showed the clip and if/what the crews reaction to it was?

[bdreason]

anyone able to explain to me how they showed the clip and if/what the crews reaction to it was?


I came in after while the clip was being played. The general consensus was that great players are great players in any generation, and that Bill Russell, utilizing all the modern tools players use today, would be just as great as he was in the 60's and 70's.

[CavaliersFTW]

wow i knew he was athletic but i had no idea he could hard-dribble up the court like that full speed...

dat stride ... omg... need more footage!!!! how the fukkkk does this dude cavssftw have footage? he an nba insider ??
I'm a bloodhound for old basketball footage sources

[CavaliersFTW]

I came in after while the clip was being played. The general consensus was that great players are great players in any generation, and that Bill Russell, utilizing all the modern tools players use today, would be just as great as he was in the 60's and 70's.
Yay the sports world is giving 60s players their due - amazing what one Bill Russell clip can do :rockon:

[Round Mound]

It Sure Looks Like Some Kids Here Are Kind of Mad After Watching What a 60s 6`9 3/4 ft Center Could Do :confusedshrug: . And Yes, The Clip of the Play is Impressive. Lets Imagine Russell`s Already Great Athletic Capactiy for His Time With All The Advanced Working Out Conditions, Supliments and Vitamins etc of Today?:wtf: Russell Was The 60s Kevin Garnett but With More Witts in the Rebounding, Man to Man D and Passing Departments (not as skilled offensively but that he never was, neither did he go to the Celtics to be that).

Also Lets Make Kids Understand that Back then "Traveling Was Actually Called" (early 90s and before): There Where Few Open Floor Dunks Taken Off 3 Steps Like the Mids 90s till Today (Rule Chances Ruined the NBA`s Fundamental Skills: Whom Which Very Few Have To Day...Other Than Jump Shooting Ofcourse..) and Going into the 70s, 80s and Early 90s You Can Clearly See That Players of Today Have It Easier to Penetrate and Handle the Ball in the 1 on 1 Departement Cause of the Handchecking Eliminatio Rule Ofcourse!. That Makes for More Flashy Flamboyant Ballhandling and Penetrating by Perimeter Players. Defensive 3 Second on Centers, 5 Second Back to the Basket Rule, No More 2 Handed Grabing the Post etc etc Anti Low Post Players Anti Stocky Players that Make the League since 2001 or 2002 THEE SOFTEST NBA ERA EVER!!!

[imnew09]

Good finding Cavs!

[BoutPractice]

Yeah, first of all, congrats to CavsFan, you've been doing great work finding all these clips.

Secondly, that people are even surprised by this vid is disrespectful of Russell. The man was an athletic freak... it's a widely documented fact and I don't understand why it would even be questioned in the first place.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Sick video. Looks like he could have EASILY dunked it, too, but I think they still had the "no dunking" rule in effect back then. Look where he takes off from, and then to be able to EASILY dunk it from that distance while still having to be concerned about being undercut - wow. :eek: :bowdown:

[CavaliersFTW]

Sick video. Looks like he could have EASILY dunked it, too, but I think they still had the "no dunking" rule in effect back then. Look where he takes off from, and then to be able to EASILY dunk it from that distance while still having to be concerned about being undercut - wow. :eek: :bowdown:
there were no "no dunking" rules when he played - he layed it in by choice

[Rolando]

there were no "no dunking" rules when he played - he layed it in by choice

He didn't want to "showboat". My how things have changed.

[OldSchoolBBall]

there were no "no dunking" rules when he played - he layed it in by choice

You sure about that? I recall there being a time period when dunking was prohibited in the NCAA and NBA. Maybe it was after his time, though.

[Rake2204]

You sure about that? I recall there being a time period when dunking was prohibited in the NCAA and NBA. Maybe it was after his time, though.That was just in the NCAA. Simply for the sake of clarity and information, per Wiki:


Dunking was banned in the NCAA from 1967 to 1976. Many people have attributed this to the dominance of the then-college phenomenon Lew Alcindor (now known as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) upon his entry into the NCAA. Subsequently, the no-dunking rule is sometimes referred to as the "Lew Alcindor rule."[3][4]

Separately, not to go back down this road again, but I saw a comment on the Deadspin link that brought this to mind.... people not being absolutely stunned by this clip, and those who label it as something they'd have expected to see out of Bill, and even those (myself included here) objecting to the wild exclamations of "He jumped over a guy from the free throw line pretty much!" I'm okay with all of that. I think those are all legit feelings.

However, this, this is just flat out... wow... (from Deadspin comments):

Yes, the athleticism on display was impressive. But he did have cutters streaking with him, and plenty of passing lanes; pushing the tempo to that extent and running by himself, with that speed, was reckless... almost pointless. If only somebody had taken the time to point out to Russell that not everything is about race.
I think it's one thing to have a varying perspective, quite another to pull out a line like that. I don't even know where to begin with a comment like that.

[The Iron Fist]

And now ESPN's asking his permission to use the video. That's awesome. At least this shedding more light on the fact that Russell, like Wilt, was an athletic freak of nature. And this is more based on things I've read, but guys like Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson were really good athletes, too. So was Jerry West.

The only people shitting on these guys, are the morons who know nothing except what espn feeds them. Its as if these kids are scared to read books, past articles, anything at all. They don't consider it valid unless they can actually see it, and its a shame. Bill Russell is a legit candidate for GOAT.

[The Iron Fist]

Don't thank me thank him

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cIeZzHU43Fc/T2VliXN4qSI/AAAAAAAADPM/Jglt_bFO3ng/s800/Corbis-IH161161.jpg

all I did was locate the clip, he did all the hard work
Epic picture. As if its saying, "I am God, before you".

[The Iron Fist]

Only 8 teams in the league, divide his rings by about 4 which should round out at about 3. Impressive but not mind boggling.
8 teams of only the absolute best players in the world. Not people who were there because they had "upside", or because they were able to "jump out of the building", but because they were, at that time, the best basketball players in the world.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I acknowledge amazing feats when I see them.

If Bill Russell dunked from a foot inside the free throw line, then I would be like yeah, that dude could sky.

But a layup from the dotted line? He glided pretty nicely, but it was still a layup from the dotted line.

P.S... picking up your dribble from around the 3-point line is very common. I don't even know why that needed to be mentioned...

Just shut the **** up, you god damned moron.

[Mrofir]

8 teams of only the absolute best players in the world. Not people who were there because they had "upside", or because they were able to "jump out of the building", but because they were, at that time, the best basketball players in the world.


Yes, the argument is often made that the nba has been softened and diluted by expansion teams (see 90s vs 80s). So people have to choose what they like in this regards.. 3 choices

expansion dilutes talent, therefor more teams = worse teams, making the threshold for winning a championship lower most years

expansion increases talent, therefor more teams = better teams, making the threshold for winning a championship higher most years

expansion neither increases nor reduces talent, therefor the difficulty of winning a championship any given year is due to other factors entirely, and the number of teams is irrelevant.

[jlip]

Yes, the argument is often made that the nba has been softened and diluted by expansion teams (see 90s vs 80s). So people have to choose what they like in this regards.. 3 choices

expansion dilutes talent, therefor more teams = worse teams, making the threshold for winning a championship lower most years

expansion increases talent, therefor more teams = better teams, making the threshold for winning a championship higher most years

expansion neither increases nor reduces talent, therefor the difficulty of winning a championship any given year is due to other factors entirely, and the number of teams is irrelevant.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: