Scottie Pippen on LeBron/Jordan

[Lebron23]

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/pip.jpg

[quote]Scottie Pippen was sitting inside an AmericanAirlines Arena suite last week when he mentioned something he said 21 months ago that irked some Michael Jordan fans.

[B]

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Thanks for posting. Interesting stuff from Scottie. Only player I'd take over current James (assuming he keeps this up for the rest of the season and playoffs) is peak Jordan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.
Where?

[andgar923]

He's jumping the gun, he's still not there yet.

His game still isn't as refined on the offensive end (not close), and he's still behind on other aspects.

But as I said on another thread, once he figures things out he may have a legit shot. Until then, he's still steps behind him.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Where?

Paragraphs 5 6 & 7

[Lebron23]

LeBron was an 18 yrs.old NBA rookie while Jordan played 4 years in College. LBJ is going to be a top 6-8 player of all time if he wins his 4th MVP, and 2nd Finals MVP this season.


“Mentally, Michael was more mature, not to take anything away from LeBron. Michael had four years of college under Dean Smith.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

He's jumping the gun, he's still not there yet.

His game still isn't as refined on the offensive end (not close), and he's still behind on other aspects.

But as I said on another thread, once he figures things out he may have a legit shot. Until then, he's still steps behind him.
I don't think he'll ever be quite as good as Jordan but we'll see he's just 28...

[coin24]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.

MJ > Bronzey

[tazb]

[quote]

[Deuce Bigalow]

LeBron was an 18 yrs.old NBA rookie while Jordan played 4 years in College. LBJ is going to be a top 6-8 player of all time if he wins his 4th MVP, and 2nd Finals MVP this season.
On what? The Lebron kid list?

[Lebron23]

On what? The Lebron kid list?

NBA All time List.

[Deuce Bigalow]

NBA All time List.
By a Lebron kid

[RoundMoundOfReb]

By a Lebron kid
Where do you have him right now and where would you put him if he wins mvp and fmvp on a run similar to last year? Just curious..

[fpliii]

I'm neither a LeBron nor Kobe guy, but isn't ranking either guy difficult at this point in time? Neither is retired, so their careers aren't set in stone. If you heavily weight prime/peak you could place Kobe, but LeBron's isn't finished yet (meaning to do so, you either have to underrate him by rating him to date, or potentially overrate him by projecting his career out).

If you're going with a single season comparison you could use any of the last few of LeBron's seasons, but to use this season you again run into the problem above.

[Money 23]

This really shouldn't be all that surprising to anyone.

LeBron is basically a very rich man's Pippen. Scottie sees a lot of himself in Bron, so naturally he's going to pump him up.

Same goes for Jordan's respect and choosing of Kobe over LeBron. He sees himself in Kobe, and even though Kobe's a poor man's Jordan, he has respect for him because of a similar competitive nature, drive, skill set ... and the fact Kobe clearly idolized Jordan, and asked him for guidance early on in the league.

Plus, Kobe ALWAYS has MJ's back. When asked after the game against the Heat the weak before All Star Break on the comparison of James / Wade to MJ / Scottie, and asked who Kobe thinks is better his response:

:kobe:

MJ and Scottie. They got 6 rings.

Same goes for MJ's logical reasoning for choosing Kobe all-time over LeBron. Much like Pippen, Bron is kind of a natural beta. Kobe, like Jordan a competitive alpha.

This could be none more apparent than in Bron's refusal to step up to the mano y mano challenge in the All Star Game when Kobe literally punked him in front of all his elite peers.

MJ would've gone at Kobe, and vice a versa. Hell they did it in 1998, when MJ was 35 and Kobe 19. They are both, as MJ said, cursed ... as competitors. Bron, he kind of has an at times Pippen-esque, whatever demeanor when challenged. And like when MJ used to challenge Pip mano y mano, Pippen would tuck his tail and cede dominance to MJ. It can be seen in Charity Games, and stories of them in practice.

Pippen reps Bron because they're similar. All around ball players, versatile team defenders (though not near as good man defenders as MJ or Kobe) ... they're both jack of all trades, master of none.

Kobe and Jordan, all around ball players who at the end of the day can score at an elite level. For as great of all around players as Bron and Pippen are (Bron being better) I still don't think they're the greatest scorers in the half court.

That's why I'd even take Wade (another poor man's Jordan) as scorers over LeBron. Pip's statements shouldn't be all that surprising.

Pip used to hate on Kobe to on the sly, probably because how he mirror's Jordan and deep inside Pip might resent Jordan's fame and recognition over him. Kobe also used to get the better of Pippen, too.

At the end of the day, I'm still taking MJ > LeBron, Pippen, Kobe, or Wade.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Where do you have him right now and where would you put him if he wins mvp and fmvp on a run similar to last year? Just curious..
Right now 14th.
If he wins again, 11th behind Hakeem.

[DCL]

LeBron was an 18 yrs.old NBA rookie while Jordan played 4 years in College.

Wrong.

Jordan only played 3 years of college.

[Lebron23]

Right now 14th.
If he wins again, 11th behind Hakeem.


LMAO.

4x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP. Stop acting like Kobe is a dominant Finals performer.

[Poetry]

I don't think he'll ever be quite as good as Jordan but we'll see he's just 28...

I have to be honest, i'm still not convinced he's better than Barkley.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I have to be honest, i'm still not convinced he's better than Barkley.
I love chuck but Lebron is an elite defender, Barkley never was.

[Money 23]

I have to be honest, i'm still not convinced he's better than Barkley.
Chuck gets slept on in these discussions because he doesn't have a ring. He was absolutely better at his peak / prime than Pippen. He had a unique game and skill set. The height of a SG / SF but with the physicality and dominant post game of a power player. Could run the floor ... Could dribble pretty well ... Could hit the three ball. Hell in his prime he could jump too. He was absolutely a superior rebounder to Bron but I think Brons defense puts him over Barkley

[coin24]

LMAO.

4x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP. Stop acting like Kobe is a dominant Finals performer.

U forgetting 2011 finals:lol that weighs in here. All time greatest choke.
Loser couldn't post up barea or kidd:roll:

I agree with 14 after last years run, and 10/11 if he can repeat it..

[ripthekik]

LMAO.

4x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP. Stop acting like Kobe is a dominant Finals performer.
this phillipino kid MAD :roll: :roll:

[No_Look604]

As tight as Scottie is with Jordan....it would only be natural for him to be jealous of MJ, deep down inside...it's human nature.

And let's not forget LBJ is present, Jordan is the past. Scottie has lived a good life...he's paying dues and reppin today's league with these comments.

Don't be so foolish.

[No_Look604]

And LBJ be hooking up Scottie with some young hoez, so he's reppin his boy.

I wouldn't be shocked to hear MJ was a dick to Pippen as well, back then and even today...no one really knows where the two stand deep down inside soo...

And I can only imagine reppin today's league is gooood for someone who is trying to get his foot back in the door, whether it's coaching or broadcasting.

[andgar923]

As tight as Scottie is with Jordan....it would only be natural for him to be jealous of MJ, deep down inside...it's human nature.

And let's not forget LBJ is present, Jordan is the past. Scottie has lived a good life...he's paying dues and reppin today's league with these comments.

Don't be so foolish.

HOnestly, I see friends and family members dig at each other all the time, and I do it as well. I think we all do to some extent, rooting for a team you know your brother hates just to stick it to him. My bro knows I like CP3, and he loves to make smart ass comments to get under my skin. Some of you can't wait to make fun of your co-worker's loss specially when your team beats them.

Like you mentioned, I think it's natural. Specially when they're competitive as they are.

[Fatstogey]

As tight as Scottie is with Jordan....it would only be natural for him to be jealous of MJ, deep down inside...it's human nature.

And let's not forget LBJ is present, Jordan is the past. Scottie has lived a good life...he's paying dues and reppin today's league with these comments.

Don't be so foolish.

No hes telling the truth.

Lebron is a better player than micheal. But does not have that "ill kill everyone to get ot the top" mentallity.

MJ was an arrogant asshole and lebron is a like a humble good dude. Thats the "will to win" everyone talks about. MJ was sniffing his own asshole the entire time. (not saying he shouldnt just stating the facts.)

When the games come on the line lebron has delivered just as many times as jordan, if not more.

He plays WAY more defense than jordan. Lebron is in a defensive category all alone. There is not a single player in the league who exists in this category. He can D 1-5 just like scottie said. MJ could not do that.


Fact is all the argument is down to now is rings. But thats a dumb argument because lebron still has plenty of time to get more rings. And im sure he will this year and next year at least.

And im still with Jeff Van Gundy. They can definately break the single season win record of hte bulls if they really want to try for that. But idk if they would. But if lebron said to himself and the team "hey lets break their record." I think they might.

But of course these days everyone is so hollywood so idk if they could maintain that sorta focus. Thats the difference, Jordan would force everyone to have that focus. But that just isnt lebrons personality. Does it mean hes not as good a basketball player? no


IDK this ****ing argument is so old and dumb. Lebron is the best basketball player walking on planet earth right now. And thats all there is to it.

[zass]

simply put, LBJ is Pippen on roids.

[NumberSix]

It's true that LeBron is the most complete player of all time, but does that necessarily mean the best of all time? Perhaps, perhaps not.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen smoking that stuff lol. You know that part of him must be loving that he gets to say something like this now that MJ isn't playing, because neither he nor anyone else would have dared to question MJ's dominance in his Bulls days. I especially like the part where he says "that's how I felt playing with Michael." Read between the lines and you'll see that Pippen is likely relishing the chance to say that someone is or could be better than Jordan. But I'll tell you one thing: if 26-30 year old Jordan was playing today, Pippen and everyone else would keep their mouths shut about a comparison.

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron can't guard anyone in the NBA... That is crazy... :rant


He may wind up being the best and that is great and all but there is no way he can guard true pf's or centers

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron can guard positions 1-5 either depending on the individual, or the situation. Can he guard someone like Westbrook or Rose during the last 2 minutes of the game? Sure, we've seen it in the 2011 playoffs. Over the course of 48 minutes? Not very likely. Could he guard Dwight or Bynum for a possession or two? Sure. Over the course of 48 minutes? No. A less talented center with minimal offensive ability? Sure. Someone like a Raymond Felton? Absolutely.

This myth that Lebron can guard anyone in the NBA, needs to really be put in context. Hell, youtube Pippen defending Barkley, Malone or Ewing in the post and having success on a play or two. Would you use Pippen to guard them over the course of the game? Of course not.

[kNicKz]

"Lebron will be better than jordan"

http://enriquepascal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/michael_jordan_trophy_rings2-300x203.jpg

"Who said that?"

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/marty_burns/02/16/allstar.notebook/p1_pippen-getty.jpg

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

[kNicKz]

U forgetting 2011 finals:lol that weighs in here. All time greatest choke.
Loser couldn't post up barea or kidd:roll:

I agree with 14 after last years run, and 10/11 if he can repeat it..

Kobe did lose in the finals twice though

Wow, kidd locking down Lebron, I just remembered that. That was an embarrassment, LOL. Getting locked down by a 38 year old like 6 inches shorter than you (Kidd aint 6'4", I've seen him in real life)

[guy]

No hes telling the truth.

Lebron is a better player than micheal. But does not have that "ill kill everyone to get ot the top" mentallity.

MJ was an arrogant asshole and lebron is a like a humble good dude. Thats the "will to win" everyone talks about. MJ was sniffing his own asshole the entire time. (not saying he shouldnt just stating the facts.)

When the games come on the line lebron has delivered just as many times as jordan, if not more.

He plays WAY more defense than jordan. Lebron is in a defensive category all alone. There is not a single player in the league who exists in this category. He can D 1-5 just like scottie said. MJ could not do that.


Fact is all the argument is down to now is rings. But thats a dumb argument because lebron still has plenty of time to get more rings. And im sure he will this year and next year at least.

And im still with Jeff Van Gundy. They can definately break the single season win record of hte bulls if they really want to try for that. But idk if they would. But if lebron said to himself and the team "hey lets break their record." I think they might.

But of course these days everyone is so hollywood so idk if they could maintain that sorta focus. Thats the difference, Jordan would force everyone to have that focus. But that just isnt lebrons personality. Does it mean hes not as good a basketball player? no


IDK this ****ing argument is so old and dumb. Lebron is the best basketball player walking on planet earth right now. And thats all there is to it.

Wow there is so much wrong with this post, especially the bolded :oldlol:

[guy]

Lebron can guard positions 1-5 either depending on the individual, or the situation. Can he guard someone like Westbrook or Rose during the last 2 minutes of the game? Sure, we've seen it in the 2011 playoffs. Over the course of 48 minutes? Not very likely. Could he guard Dwight or Bynum for a possession or two? Sure. Over the course of 48 minutes? No. A less talented center with minimal offensive ability? Sure. Someone like a Raymond Felton? Absolutely.

This myth that Lebron can guard anyone in the NBA, needs to really be put in context. Hell, youtube Pippen defending Barkley, Malone or Ewing in the post and having success on a play or two. Would you use Pippen to guard them over the course of the game? Of course not.

So true. I'm not even sure Lebron has ever guarded someone as big as Vlade Divac which Jordan did do for a stretch in the 91 Finals.

And anyway, Lebron isn't the first player I've heard people say can guard 5 positions. I remember they were saying this same thing about Shawn Marion back when he was with the Suns, saying things like he can guard everyone from Tony Parker to Shaquille O'Neal. And I'm pretty sure they were saying the same thing about players like Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen back in the day.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron is an amazing player probably the most physically gifted I ever seen since I have been watching bball since the 80,s but Jordan was so darn competitive besides being ultra talented as well. Lebron losing 11 finals hurts his goat chances but he can still be in conversation with a few more chips and Mvps. Lebrons biggest drawback and flaw has always been mental. If he had Jordan's mentality no doubt he would be Goat. Reason he doesn't he has always been loved and looked up to as a basketball prodigy since he was in HS and is afraid of failure or disappointing people. I love when he plays with a nasty streak/edge like in Playoff gm against Boston last season when he was just locked in from the start. That Lebron is just fun to watch not the mentally weak passive 2011 finals version.

[plowking]

Lebron is an amazing player probably the most physically gifted I ever seen since I have been watching bball since the 80,s but Jordan was so darn competitive besides being ultra talented as well. Lebron losing 11 finals hurts his goat chances but he can still be in conversation with a few more chips and Mvps. Lebrons biggest drawback and flaw has always been mental. If he had Jordan's mentality no doubt he would be Goat. Reason he doesn't he has always been loved and looked up to as a basketball prodigy since he was in HS and is afraid of failure or disappointing people. I love when he plays with a nasty streak/edge like in Playoff gm against Boston last season when he was just locked in from the start. That Lebron is just fun to watch not the mentally weak passive 2011 finals version.


:oldlol:

There is no way in hell you were watching ball in the 80's. You might have watched a few tapes recently or something, but I just don't believe you're that old. :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

And I'm pretty sure they were saying the same thing about players like Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen back in the day.

Exactly. I don't recall Rodman ever guarding a point guard, but he's guarded the likes of Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Shaq across the span of his career. And there are very few players of that caliber playing today, especially the center spot. Lebron has the physical size to match up with some of today's centers and PFs because there aren't many true low-post scoring threats now. Put Lebron in the 90's, is he guarding Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Ewing successfully? There are NO centers of that pedigree anymore, including a healthy Howard and Bynum who at least would be second-tier star centers after the ones I mentioned above.

[Jasper]

Pip has been there , done it , and played with MJ

These threads are :lol

Just enjoy watching Lebron - whether you like him or hate him it's bball.

You might never see another player like him(.)

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie said "numbers don't lie." He is right.

Lebron vs. Jordan through age 27

Championships: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
NBA finals: Lebron 3, Jordan 1
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0
All-NBA first team: Lebron 6, Jordan 5
Lost in the first round: Jordan 3, Lebron 0

Team win totals


Jordan: 27 (pre-MJ), 38, 30 (9-9 with MJ), 40, 50, 47, 55, 61
Lebron: 17 (pre-Lebron), 35, 40, 50, 50, 47, 66, 61, 58, 57 (over 82 games)

The only thing Jordan at 27-28 has over Lebron at this stage is sneaker sales and marketing dollars. :oldlol: Jordan fans will note that Lebron entered the league out of high school. That helps him in all-time totals but it hurts his career averages. Moreover, is it really fair to compare 18 and 19 year old Lebron to what MJ did coming out of UNC with Dean Smith's training? The fact that Lebron can even be compared to early Jordan illustrates how transcendent a player Lebron is. He--fresh out of high school--took a 17 win team to 35 wins, which is more than Jordan did.

However, Lebron is on his way to a 4th MVP (in 5 years) thanks to achieving a level of efficiency that Jordan never came close to and Lebron likely will have 2 rings and 4 finals appearances after this year. Considering that Lebron just entered his peak, he definitely is on pace to eclipse Jordan's accomplishments.

No one will care about the 2011 NBA finals in a few years when Lebron has 6-7 MVP's and 4-6 rings, just as no one cares about MJ taking 4 years to even get out the first round--and even that took going to the final game--or 6 years to win more than 50 games.

The big difference between Lebron and Jordan indeed is mentality: one is a great teammate and the other was/is known to be a world-class jerk. Lebron doesn't take over a third of his team's shots, elevates his teammates, etc. That is why he had the success he did with scrubs in Cleveland. It is funny to see mind-set used against Lebron today; in 5-7 years it will be exhibit A in the case for Lebron over Jordan.

Lebron is posting 27/8/7/2/1 on 57%, including 41% from three point range and Lebron is doing all this with only 18 FGA and 7 FTA a game. When did Jordan ever approach that? Jordan had a few seasons at 54% (on much higher volume: 22-24 FGA and 8-11 FTA--but they didn't call fouls back then :lol ), but he did so because he lacked the ability to shoot 3's (13%, 28%, and 31% those seasons at 0.6-1.2 attempt a game). Lebron's effective FG % is 61% this year; Jordan's best was 55%.

Here is where Lebron likely will pull away from Jordan:

Jordan at ages 29-31: 1 championship, 0 MVP's, 1 all-NBA first team

Lebron will be at his peak during those years and not lose interest in basketball and retire. Jordan's two retirements will hurt him all-time, although to be fair if Jordan did play, due to a lack of motivation, he wouldn't have been "Jordan" anyway. There is something to be said, though, for having the dedication to being the best year in and year out. Lebron has that.

[guy]

Exactly. I don't recall Rodman ever guarding a point guard, but he's guarded the likes of Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Shaq across the span of his career. And there are very few players of that caliber playing today, especially the center spot. Lebron has the physical size to match up with some of today's centers and PFs because there aren't many true low-post scoring threats now. Put Lebron in the 90's, is he guarding Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Ewing successfully? There are NO centers of that pedigree anymore, including a healthy Howard and Bynum who at least would be second-tier star centers after the ones I mentioned above.

He guarded Magic. Obviously you might not count that, but I'm pretty sure he's guarded players like Dennis Johnson, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson in stretches. Either way, his ability to guard all 5 positions, as well as Pippen's and Marion's, were exaggerated just like Lebron's is now.

[guy]

Scottie said "numbers don't lie." He is right.

Lebron vs. Jordan through age 27

Championships: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
NBA finals: Lebron 3, Jordan 1
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0
All-NBA first team: Lebron 6, Jordan 5
Lost in the first round: Jordan 3, Lebron 0

Team win totals


Jordan: 27 (pre-MJ), 38, 30 (9-9 with MJ), 40, 50, 47, 55, 61
Lebron: 17 (pre-Lebron), 35, 40, 50, 50, 47, 66, 61, 58, 57 (over 82 games)

The only thing Jordan at 27-28 has over Lebron at this stage is sneaker sales and marketing dollars. :oldlol: Jordan fans will note that Lebron entered the league out of high school. That helps him in all-time totals but it hurts his career averages. Moreover, is it really fair to compare 18 and 19 year old Lebron to what MJ did coming out of UNC with Dean Smith's training? The fact that Lebron can even be compared to early Jordan illustrates how transcendent a player Lebron is. He--fresh out of high school--took a 17 win team to 35 wins, which is more than Jordan did.

However, Lebron is on his way to a 4th MVP (in 5 years) thanks to achieving a level of efficiency that Jordan never came close to and Lebron likely will have 2 rings and 4 finals appearances after this year. Considering that Lebron just entered his peak, he definitely is on pace to eclipse Jordan's accomplishments.

No one will care about the 2011 NBA finals in a few years when Lebron has 6-7 MVP's and 4-6 rings, just as no one cares about MJ taking 4 years to even get out the first round--and even that took going to the final game--or 6 years to win more than 50 games.

The big difference between Lebron and Jordan indeed is mentality: one is a great teammate and the other was/is known to be a world-class jerk. Lebron doesn't take over a third of his team's shots, elevates his teammates, etc. That is why he had the success he did with scrubs in Cleveland. It is funny to see mind-set used against Lebron today; in 5-7 years it will be exhibit A in the case for Lebron over Jordan.

Lebron is posting 27/8/7/2/1 on 57%, including 41% from three point range and Lebron is doing all this with only 18 FGA and 7 FTA a game. When did Jordan ever approach that? Jordan had a few seasons at 54% (on much higher volume: 22-24 FGA and 8-11 FTA--but they didn't call fouls back then :lol ), but he did so because he lacked the ability to shoot 3's (13%, 28%, and 31% those seasons at 0.6-1.2 attempt a game). Lebron's effective FG % is 61% this year; Jordan's best was 55%.

Here is where Lebron likely will pull away from Jordan:

Jordan at ages 29-31: 1 championship, 0 MVP's, 1 all-NBA first team

Lebron will be at his peak during those years and not lose interest in basketball and retire. Jordan's two retirements will hurt him all-time, although to be fair if Jordan did play, due to a lack of motivation, he wouldn't have been "Jordan" anyway. There is something to be said, though, for having the dedication to being the best year in and year out. Lebron has that.

:cry: Jordan was a jerk!

:lebroncry: Sorry! Jordan was a WORLD CLASS jerk!

:roll:

[Rysio]

basketball is still 99% about how good a scorer you are and lebrick aint even in the top 30. no chance of goat. :no:

[DuMa]

MJ had 4 years under Dean Smith? i thought he left a year early to play in the NBA? Scottie doesnt know, he just doesnt know.

[Poetry]

He was absolutely a superior rebounder to Bron but I think Brons defense puts him over Barkley

Neither has the edge in my eyes. 'Bron will go down as the better player (due to the individual and team accolades as well as the longevity), but at their peak, based on ability and skill set, i think they're on the same level, especially in terms of impact on the game.

[jstern]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.

I just realized that that's the way that someone who didn't watch Jordan when he was playing might take his comment. So probably a lot of younger people might think that since they're not familiar with Jordan's mentality.

[OldSchoolBBall]

There is something to be said, though, for having the dedication to being the best year in and year out. Lebron has that.

youre straight trolling now lol. :oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

He guarded Magic. Obviously you might not count that, but I'm pretty sure he's guarded players like Dennis Johnson, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson in stretches. Either way, his ability to guard all 5 positions, as well as Pippen's and Marion's, were exaggerated just like Lebron's is now.

Oh yeah, true. I was thinking guys like Stockton, Hardaway, KJ when I made that comment but yeah, you're correct there.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I just realized that that's the way that someone who didn't watch Jordan when he was playing might take his comment. So probably a lot of younger people might think that since they're not familiar with Jordan's mentality.

[QUOTE=]But Pippen doesn

[jlip]

It seems as if the litmus test for greatness for basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) is often different from that of fans. While as fans we go back and look at career accomplishments (i.e. how many MVPs, championships, "was he 'the man' for those championships", all star selections, stats titles, etc.), basketball personalities tend to look at the greats and judge by perceived talent and performance. The fact that legend X has 1 more MVP and 2 more rings than legend Y doesn't mean as much to them in the debate.

From the "Jim Boeheim: LeBron James could challenge Michael Jordan for 'best ever' title" thread



I keep saying this, whether one agrees with Van Gundy or not, it's important to understand that when basketball personalities, especially coaches, compare players they are often not talking about career achievements, accolades, or resume's. They are judging according to what they perceive as on- the- court abilities completely devoid of the career accomplishments. To them, there is little difference in abilities between a player with 2 MVPs and one with 4 or a player with 5 rings and a player with 3. At that point, the comparison is extremely subjective and basically contingent on the evaluator's preferences in players.
From the "SVG Says LeBron>Jordan" thread


I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

From the Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said." thread

[guy]

By the way, after everyone went off on Pippen for saying that, didn't he back track his statements and say that he never said Lebron would be better but that he would end up with better numbers? I'm pretty sure he did. Now it sounds like he never backtracked at all.

[jstern]

Dafuq you talkin about?

Jordan had the ultimate alpha male mentality. He was above normal in that sense, but people who never watch Jordan play during his career are going to view Pippen's comment as a put down to Lebron, because they're going to view Jordan's mentality in the same level as other superstars, rather than a super obsessive competitive, will play and win with the flu kind of guy.

Since a lot of people say that Lebron is mentally weak, those who didn't watch Jordan play are going to think that Pippen is saying that Lebron is mentally weak.

[tmacattack33]

Pipped took a little jab at Lebron's mentality.

No. He said his mentality (mental toughness and competitiveness or something in particular) falls short when compared to MJ's.

Well, everyone's would.




That's like if he said that Lebron's jumpshot falls short when compared to Reggie Miller's.

[Pointguard]

Exactly. I don't recall Rodman ever guarding a point guard, but he's guarded the likes of Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Shaq across the span of his career. And there are very few players of that caliber playing today, especially the center spot. Lebron has the physical size to match up with some of today's centers and PFs because there aren't many true low-post scoring threats now. Put Lebron in the 90's, is he guarding Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq, Ewing successfully? There are NO centers of that pedigree anymore, including a healthy Howard and Bynum who at least would be second-tier star centers after the ones I mentioned above.
Its goes both ways. The point guards now are a lot quicker now than they were in Rodman's time. Across the board they are faster and quicker. I give Rodman the bigman advantage tho because they were just better back then.

No player at their own position guards the best players. So when we say guard, we mean at a high level. The best defensive PG isn't stopping Rose for a whole game. Best Center isn't stopping DMC when he's focused. So yeah, Lebron can guard anybody in the league effectively, right now. If Lebron played like Rodman, as a specialist, he's the best there is. There is a possibility that there is no one in the league that he doesn't significantly affect.

[Pointguard]

Originally Posted by jlip
I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and former players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then access greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

Yeah, I remember you being one of a few that participated in you the definition of GOAT vs GOAT Player. I'll repost the question.

[Dragonyeuw]

1)Its goes both ways. The point guards now are a lot quicker now than they were in Rodman's time. Across the board they are faster and quicker. I give Rodman the bigman advantage tho because they were just better back then.

1)So yeah, Lebron can guard anybody in the league effectively, right now.

1) Of course it goes both ways. But relatively speaking, in terms of today's vs yesteryear's fast PGs, Rodman trying to defend someone like Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson would be like Lebron trying to defend Westbrook. Perhaps over a few possessions, but not over the course of the game. That goes for both Rodman then and Lebron now.

2) I didn't really argue otherwise, but that point needs to be further qualified. What I am saying is that Lebron cannot guard every player in the NBA over the course of 48 minutes. For a possession or two or a defensive switch, sure. Now can he do it over 48 minutes if he was a specialist like Rodman and didn't have to worry about all the other things he does? The results would certainly be different, but as fast as Lebron is, I'm having a hard time seeing him defending Westbrook for 48 minutes. Lebron's speed is moreso when he's in the open-court and gathering steam. Defending lightning quick guys in the half-court with crazy first steps and handles, ability to change direction on a dime, and with a lower center of gravity is going to be very difficult for Lebron to do at his size, regardless of his athletic gifts.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LMAO.

4x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x Finals MVP. Stop acting like Kobe is a dominant Finals performer.
We going to act like Kobe didn't have great regular seasons like 06 and 07? Nash and Dirk won the MVP those years, are they better?

In 2007

Nash 2 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Dirk 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Iverson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
KG 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Kobe 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs

We're they ranked higher than Kobe then?

No.

Elgin Baylor 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs
Oscar Robertson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Julius Erving 1 MVP, 0 MVPs
Kevin Garnett 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Charles Barkley 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
David Robinson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
-------
Nash 2 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Rose 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs
Iverson 1 MVP, 0 FMVPs

Nash is better than all those players above?
Rose and Iverson as good as those above?

No.

[Fatstogey]

Wow there is so much wrong with this post, especially the bolded :oldlol:

Your gonna sit here and tell me that Jordan could D up an premier 4? GTFO

You literally know nothing of basketball if hte defense part is what you see. Of course this is why they pay people to coach. Cause most people dont quite see the finer points of the game.

Fact is you watched Jordan as a kid. your opinion is based on nostalgia. JOrdan isnt even as good a scorer as lebron currently is. Forget defense.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Jordan had the ultimate alpha male mentality. He was above normal in that sense, but people who never watch Jordan play during his career are going to view Pippen's comment as a put down to Lebron, because they're going to view Jordan's mentality in the same level as other superstars, rather than a super obsessive competitive, will play and win with the flu kind of guy.

Since a lot of people say that Lebron is mentally weak, those who didn't watch Jordan play are going to think that Pippen is saying that Lebron is mentally weak.


So Pippen saying that Lebron doesn't have that Im gonna kill my opponent or die trying ultra compettive mentality like Jordan and Kobe (he used tthose 2 players as examples) isnt a little jab?

Considering if Lebron did have that mentality he'd probrably be goat

[TheMan]

Your gonna sit here and tell me that Jordan could D up an premier 4? GTFO

You literally know nothing of basketball if hte defense part is what you see. Of course this is why they pay people to coach. Cause most people dont quite see the finer points of the game.

Fact is you watched Jordan as a kid. your opinion is based on nostalgia. JOrdan isnt even as good a scorer as lebron currently is. Forget defense.
Take a breather, kid. Jordan has 10 scoring titles (mind you that he missed one season to injury and 2 seasons to baseball in his absolute peak), how many does Bronzey have?

[guy]

Your gonna sit here and tell me that Jordan could D up an premier 4? GTFO

You literally know nothing of basketball if hte defense part is what you see. Of course this is why they pay people to coach. Cause most people dont quite see the finer points of the game.

Fact is you watched Jordan as a kid. your opinion is based on nostalgia. JOrdan isnt even as good a scorer as lebron currently is. Forget defense.

Being able to guard more positions doesn't equal playing more defense, especially WAY more defense like you put it.

And no, Jordan is clearly a better scorer then Lebron. If you're going to bring up coaches, pretty much every coach has said that and none have said Lebron is a better scorer.

And if you think Lebron has delivered as much as Jordan when the game is on the line then YOU MUST BE A KID.

[TheMan]

So Pippen saying that Lebron doesn't have that Im gonna kill my opponent or die trying ultra compettive mentality like Jordan and Kobe (he used tthose 2 players as examples) isnt a little jab?

Considering if Lebron did have that mentality he'd probrably be goat
He'd probably have multiple rings by now, too. Working on his 3rd or 4th...

[TheMarkMadsen]

He'd probably have multiple rings by now, too. Working on his 3rd or 4th...


glad to see somebody agrees. I've been negged 4 times for pointing out what Scottie said in comparisons to their mentalitly.

Insecure stans

[TheMan]

glad to see somebody agrees. I've been negged 4 times for pointing out what Scottie said in comparisons to their mentalitly.

Insecure stans
Yea, looks like LBJ is finally getting the mental part down going by what he did last season but he wasn't born with it like MJ or Kobe and he could still relapse, we'll see how it plays out the rest of his career. Thank God for that too because the NBA would have no shot with Bron's physical gifts along with an MJ/Kobe/Bird like killer mentality.

Kids today...:oldlol:

[Money 23]

Yea, looks like LBJ is finally getting the mental part down going by what he did last season but he wasn't born with it like MJ or Kobe and he could still relapse, we'll see how it plays out the rest of his career.
He relapsed just a week ago. Called out in front of all his elite peers, Kobe punked him in front of the WORLD. And he didn't even go back at him.

I don't care if it's preseason, practice, NBA Finals, All Star Game, Olympic Games, or even pickup.

If you have any sort of personal pride in your game, and integrity, you go back at someone saying you're going to bust them back on the floor. Bron ceded to Kobe, and even looked shook again.

So stunned by consecutive blocks, watch his body language. Dude didn't even get back on defense. And it isn't an issue of not trying while Kobe was guarding him, or before. Because he was trying to will the East team back into contention. The way he's had to do in 2011, 2012 All Star Games.

It was another relapse of weak mentality and intangibles.

........

But as for this dude Pippen,

:biggums:

Either he has collective amnesia of playing with MJ.

Or he's trying to be a hype man for the current league, to gain positional authority to recuperate all the ATROCIOUS financial losses he suffered in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s through horrific investments

Or is it possible that this is a look inside of Pippen, possible deep seeded resentment towards MJ. Propping up a player more similar to himself, after all LeBron is basically super Pippen.

Pippen also used to hate on Kobe on the low with comments during telecasts, possibly due to his connection as apprentice to MJ, and the similarities between the two. And we all know Kobe always got the best of Pip either in Houston or Portland (with the exception of one game)

There is no other explanations. It's odd than in two years ... Pippen, teammate of the best ever who basically molded him into the player he was and lead him to 6 rings, prematurely labeled LeBron as the greatest of all time and better than MJ.

Strange.