Most underrated player on ISH is none other than ------------------------------------

[Derivative]

http://brotherlylovesports.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/shak20lakers_b5x3edecykca.jpg

Seems like no one talks about him when talking about the greatest players ever. Let me remind you of his stats at his prime.

1999-2000:
29.7 PPG, 57% FG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 3.0 BPG, 30.6 PER

2000-2001:
28.7 PPG, 57.2% FG, 12.7 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.8 BPG, 30.2 PER

2001-2002:
27.2 PPG, 57.9% FG, 10.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.0 BPG, 29.7 PER

2002-2003:
27.5 PPG, 57.4% FG, 11.1 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.4 BPG, 29.5 PER


Now let me remind you of his stats in the 3 finals:

1999-2000:
38.0 PPG, 61.1% FG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 BPG

2000-2001:
33.0 PPG, 57.3% FG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.2 BPG

2001-2002:
36.3 PPG, 59.5% FG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.8 BPG


Let's not forget he's only one of the four players in history to have 3 Finals MVP.



And people are saying Kobe or Duncan's better than the Black Tornado? Most dominant player after Jordan?


:facepalm Only on ISH.

[talkingconch]

http://brotherlylovesports.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/shak20lakers_b5x3edecykca.jpg

Seems like no one talks about him when talking about the greatest players ever. Let me remind you of his stats at his prime.

1999-2000:
29.7 PPG, 57% FG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 3.0 BPG, 30.6 PER

2000-2001:
28.7 PPG, 57.2% FG, 12.7 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.8 BPG, 30.2 PER

2001-2002:
27.2 PPG, 57.9% FG, 10.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.0 BPG, 29.7 PER

2002-2003:
27.5 PPG, 57.4% FG, 11.1 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.4 BPG, 29.5 PER


Now let me remind you of his stats in the 3 finals:

1999-2000:
38.0 PPG, 61.1% FG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 BPG

2000-2001:
33.0 PPG, 57.3% FG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.2 BPG

2001-2002:
36.3 PPG, 59.5% FG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.8 BPG


Let's not forget he's only one of the four players in history to have 3 Finals MVP.



And people are saying Kobe or Duncan's better than the Black Tornado? Most dominant player after Jordan?


:facepalm Only on ISH.

cuz kobe won 2 more rings as the guy.

[Derivative]

cuz kobe won 2 more rings as the guy.

What's your argument?

Shaq has 4 rings, won 3 with extremely dominance

Kobe has 5 rings, won 2 with much shittier stats than Shaq

[Tking714]

Everyone's mad that he sucks on TNT. He's a beast. My favorite player all-time. He turned a team into a contender the moment he was on the floor. period.

[Money 23]

What's your argument?

Shaq has 4 rings, won 3 with extremely dominance

Kobe has 5 rings, won 2 with much shittier stats than Shaq
Shaq was sidekick for one ring ... Same way you tell us Kobe was sidekick all the time.

Kobe's sidekick Pau Gasol isn't better than 2000 Kobe or 2001 Kobe or 2002 Kobe .... So Mamba basically won back to back rings with less star talent than Shaq needed to win.

You could argue Kobe's teams were more well stacked and they might be but its fun using your own ridiculous arguments against you

[Lebron23]

Shaquille O'Neal could have been a 4x NBA MVP. (1995, 2001, and 2005). 4x NBA MVP, and 3x Finals MVP = top 5 player of all time.

[Big#50]

http://brotherlylovesports.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/shak20lakers_b5x3edecykca.jpg

Seems like no one talks about him when talking about the greatest players ever. Let me remind you of his stats at his prime.

1999-2000:
29.7 PPG, 57% FG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 3.0 BPG, 30.6 PER

2000-2001:
28.7 PPG, 57.2% FG, 12.7 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.8 BPG, 30.2 PER

2001-2002:
27.2 PPG, 57.9% FG, 10.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.0 BPG, 29.7 PER

2002-2003:
27.5 PPG, 57.4% FG, 11.1 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.4 BPG, 29.5 PER


Now let me remind you of his stats in the 3 finals:

1999-2000:
38.0 PPG, 61.1% FG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 BPG

2000-2001:
33.0 PPG, 57.3% FG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.2 BPG

2001-2002:
36.3 PPG, 59.5% FG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.8 BPG


Let's not forget he's only one of the four players in history to have 3 Finals MVP.



And people are saying Kobe or Duncan's better than the Black Tornado? Most dominant player after Jordan?


:facepalm Only on ISH.
I have him tied with Duncan as the second greatest after Jordan. I know most people have Tim anywhere from 9-6. But him and Shaw were equal in my book. Even Shaq considers Tim his equal. Shaq was the most dominant force ever. He was sub par defensively. But his size was a problem in the middle. People forget just how he beat front courts before the tip. He got away with a lot. But if you play in the paint you have to be ready for that shit. It's a big man's game in there. Shaq is my number two greatest player ever. He's underrated when people put him out of their top 7. It's ****ing criminal.

[iamgine]

The problem with Shaq is he did it at a time where there were no great centers. He didn't win it in Orlando with a very good supporting cast. Plus his team was swept so many times before the threepeat.

[AussieG]

Duncan's never been as dominant as Shaq IMO.. Shaq was flat out unstoppable at times but Duncan was more consistant over a long stretch of time.. and with less weaknesses in his game.. ie shooting and FT shooting.

[plowking]

The problem with Shaq is he did it at a time where there were no great centers. He didn't win it in Orlando with a very good supporting cast. Plus his team was swept so many times before the threepeat.

:oldlol:

You're post on this site range from bad to flat out terrible. :oldlol:

[Fatstogey]

Shaq was sidekick for one ring ... Same way you tell us Kobe was sidekick all the time.

Kobe's sidekick Pau Gasol isn't better than 2000 Kobe or 2001 Kobe or 2002 Kobe .... So Mamba basically won back to back rings with less star talent than Shaq needed to win.

You could argue Kobe's teams were more well stacked and they might be but its fun using your own ridiculous arguments against you

Dude. this is assinine. What team spends more money on players than any other in the league? For the entire history of the league? Lakers.

What team has Kobe always been on? The team spending the most money(i didnt look up who is number 1 but obviously itd be the celts or lakers). So i mean dude... GTFO with this stupid crap.

[DaSeba5]

Shaq helped bring the Heat their first title. I will always love Shaq. I still have his jersey.

[Remix]

if he didnt have such a bad attitude and decided to play more than 60 games in the regular season he would easily be top 4 all time. i loved his game, my first ever favorite player. but his work ethic was terrible, however i haven't seen anyone have such an impact on the game.

[Foster5k]

I don't think people underrate Shaq. Pretty much everyone knows he was unstoppable.

Most people on ISH think the 00s Lakers are the best team in NBA history.

[NBASTATMAN]

Prime Shaq is BY FAR THE MOST DOMINANT PLAYER I HAVE SEEN.:rockon:

[Mamba]

Kobe's sidekick Pau Gasol isn't better than 2000 Kobe or 2001 Kobe or 2002 Kobe .... So Mamba basically won back to back rings with less star talent than Shaq needed to win.

we're just going to go ahead and pretend ron artest, lamar odom, and andrew bynum didn't exist right now?

I'm just making sure we're doing this, because that is one of the strongest supporting casts in the history of the league.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Shaq was sidekick for one ring ... Same way you tell us Kobe was sidekick all the time.

Kobe's sidekick Pau Gasol isn't better than 2000 Kobe or 2001 Kobe or 2002 Kobe .... So Mamba basically won back to back rings with less star talent than Shaq needed to win.

You could argue Kobe's teams were more well stacked and they might be but its fun using your own ridiculous arguments against you

The 08-10 Laker teams had more depth than the 99-02 teams. Shaq's Lakers lost talent just about every season until the 03-04 season. It was made up for by Kobe becoming a top 3 player and Phil Jackson coming aboard. I mean the 01 Lakers were the most dominant playoff team of all time and after Shaq/Kobe, that roster was nothing special. Pretty sure Fisher was there #3 scorer for the postseason. I mean guys like Fox, Horry, etc were nice role players. Kobe's Laker teams had Odom off the bench and overall better depth.

[Dro]

The 08-10 Laker teams had more depth than the 99-02 teams. Shaq's Lakers lost talent just about every season until the 03-04 season. It was made up for by Kobe becoming a top 3 player and Phil Jackson coming aboard. I mean the 01 Lakers were the most dominant playoff team of all time and after Shaq/Kobe, that roster was nothing special. Pretty sure Fisher was there #3 scorer for the postseason. I mean guys like Fox, Horry, etc were nice role players. Kobe's Laker teams had Odom off the bench and overall better depth.
I agree with this....

[Mr. Jabbar]

Shaq and Kobe 1x MVP each, Nash 2x MVP. That award = joke.

[Budadiiii]

Shaq and Kobe 1x MVP each, Nash 2x MVP. That award = joke.
Steve Nash in his prime shits on both of those guys. Nash deserved four MVP's. He's easily a top 10 all time player.

[Dro]

Steve Nash in his prime shits on both of those guys. Nash deserved four MVP's. He's easily a top 10 all time player.
I assume this is sarcasm....

[Budadiiii]

I assume this is sarcasm....
lol what the ****, my bad. I accidentally put top ten instead of top five. :facepalm

I hate coming off as an idiot on the net. :facepalm

[MisterAmazing]

All hail The Big Aristotle :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Repped

[Bandito]

we're just going to go ahead and pretend ron artest, lamar odom, and andrew bynum didn't exist right now?

I'm just making sure we're doing this, because that is one of the strongest supporting casts in the history of the league.
why do people keep mention Bynum when he was injured for those rings and when he played he did for like 10 mins a game. He was not a factor for those games. Heck even fisher did way more than him and he was barely a factor on defense.

[Coolaak]

He always needed top shooting guard besides him to win.Like Kobe, and Wade.
He can never win like Kobe won his last 2 rings.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaquille O'Neal could have been a 4x NBA MVP. (1995, 2001, and 2005). 4x NBA MVP, and 3x Finals MVP = top 5 player of all time.
What difference does it make that he didn't get the award from the media? It still doesn't change the fact he had great seasons in 95, 01, and 05. :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq was sidekick for one ring ... Same way you tell us Kobe was sidekick all the time.

Kobe's sidekick Pau Gasol isn't better than 2000 Kobe or 2001 Kobe or 2002 Kobe .... So Mamba basically won back to back rings with less star talent than Shaq needed to win.

You could argue Kobe's teams were more well stacked and they might be but its fun using your own ridiculous arguments against you

I'd lean towards '09 and '10 Gasol over 2000 Kobe personally, though definitely not '01 and '02 Kobe who was on another level than any version of Pau. But Gasol was a more mature and consistent player when he won the back to back titles than 2000 Kobe, imo.


The problem with Shaq is he did it at a time where there were no great centers. He didn't win it in Orlando with a very good supporting cast. Plus his team was swept so many times before the threepeat.

He was 24 when he left Orlando. How exactly does that diminish what he accomplished in LA? He got to the finals and ECF his last 2 years there losing to a Rocket team that had beaten teams that had won 60, 59 and 62 games to get to the finals and losing to a 72 win Bulls team the next year.


we're just going to go ahead and pretend ron artest, lamar odom, and andrew bynum didn't exist right now?

He acknowledged that at the end of his post. He wasn't trying to discredit Shaq, he was making a point about the logic, or lack thereof used when it comes to evaluating rings.


I'm just making sure we're doing this, because that is one of the strongest supporting casts in the history of the league.

This simply isn't true.

[Ne 1]

He is underrated. There isn't any consistent criteria that doesn't place Shaq at least top 6 and really, factoring in the main cafeteria's used for ranking players (championships, peak/prime play and longevity) he comes out at best top 3 and at worst 6. Clearly below Kareem and Jordan, and by peak play and longevity he's clearly top 3. As far as winning? He'd still be tied for 6th with Duncan if you use total championships as the criteria as far as the guys in the consensus top 10. Shaq is 6th in All-Time scoring, 7th in blocks and 13th Rebounding.

I'm shocked that some people have him as low as 10 on their all-time lists.

[iamgine]

He was 24 when he left Orlando. How exactly does that diminish what he accomplished in LA? He got to the finals and ECF his last 2 years there losing to a Rocket team that had beaten teams that had won 60, 59 and 62 games to get to the finals and losing to a 72 win Bulls team the next year.

It didn't. What diminish it was the fact that there was no great center by then.

His team did get swept plenty of times.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It didn't. What diminish it was the fact that there was no great center by then.

:confusedshrug:


His team did get swept plenty of times.

Better than losing in the 1st round, and the sweeps themselves aren't what I look at. I look at his performance. I'm critical of his '99 series vs the Spurs, not necessarily because of the sweep, but because he played well below his standards. For that reason, I criticize him far more for his '97 loss to Utah which wasn't a sweep than his '98 loss when he was swept. That's because he was dominant outside of game 1 vs Utah, and I was impressed by how hard he played until the end of the series even when it was hopeless and his teammates had embarrassed themselves. Meanwhile, Shaq's '97 series vs Utah was well below his standards. That's a loss I'm more critical of than his '95 and '96 sweeps, which aren't negatives to me.

[crisoner]

Steve Nash in his prime shits on both of those guys. Nash deserved four MVP's. He's easily a top 10 all time player.
:facepalm

[Smoke117]

Meh i'm with Wilt on this one...nobody has ever gotten away with more offensive fouls then Shaq has

[Whoah10115]

Shaq is definitely more underrated here than Sydney Moncrief.


He's never lower than #9 on any list and his peak has been argued by some over Jordan's...absolutely.



we're just going to go ahead and pretend ron artest, lamar odom, and andrew bynum didn't exist right now?

I'm just making sure we're doing this, because that is one of the strongest supporting casts in the history of the league.


Don't be a doodoo brain. Ron Artest was never very good for the Lakers. Ariza was better on BOTH sides of the ball in 2008-09 than Artest ever was.


That cast was, in fact, an awesome cast. One of the strongest supporting casts in the history of the league? Don't know, maybe...I love how inconsistent, as a whole, the team was. But you seem to ignore that, much like the Spurs in 2002-03, that team needed the monster at the top.

[Whoah10115]

Better than losing in the 1st round




People never seem to understand stuff like this. I'm not saying the poster's point wasn't a valid talking point, but when people just to evaluate things based on bottom lines, they always go into "He lost this many times in the Finals" and, conversely, "He never lost in the Finals"...like what, would you rather lose early? Apparently, that helps a career.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

http://brotherlylovesports.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/shak20lakers_b5x3edecykca.jpg

Seems like no one talks about him when talking about the greatest players ever. Let me remind you of his stats at his prime.

1999-2000:
29.7 PPG, 57% FG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG, 3.0 BPG, 30.6 PER

2000-2001:
28.7 PPG, 57.2% FG, 12.7 RPG, 3.7 APG, 2.8 BPG, 30.2 PER

2001-2002:
27.2 PPG, 57.9% FG, 10.7 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.0 BPG, 29.7 PER

2002-2003:
27.5 PPG, 57.4% FG, 11.1 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.4 BPG, 29.5 PER


Now let me remind you of his stats in the 3 finals:

1999-2000:
38.0 PPG, 61.1% FG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 BPG

2000-2001:
33.0 PPG, 57.3% FG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.2 BPG

2001-2002:
36.3 PPG, 59.5% FG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.8 BPG


Let's not forget he's only one of the four players in history to have 3 Finals MVP.



And people are saying Kobe or Duncan's better than the Black Tornado? Most dominant player after Jordan?


:facepalm Only on ISH.

Exactly. :):bowdown:

[JMT]

Meh i'm with Wilt on this one...nobody has ever gotten away with more offensive fouls then Shaq has

Somewhere along the line "lower your shoulder and ram through smaller guys" has become "incredibly skilled GOAT".

How people who barely saw half of the generally accepted Top 10 can say a guy in that rarified air is underrated is the height of stupidity.

[Micku]

I don't think he is underrated here as he is with the media. The news, radio and etc. They seem to somewhat skip him and don't really realize his impact and individual performance is a rarity. But they do acknowledge that he is dominant, but Kobe get more talks. Part of the reason why is because he is still relevant.

It's similar to how Magic get more talks and attention than Kareem, though Kareem was legendary and was more the leader in the early 80s.

[Legends66NBA7]

Shaq has been called the "Most Dominant Ever".

There was a thread made by the poster "Odinn" and it was to rank the Top 12 seasons by big men of the modern era. There was unanimous agreement by everyone I saw post in the thread that Shaq was #1.

I've seen posters rank him in the Top 5 and has high as Top 2.

He simply is not underrated, unless you think he does Top 3-5 mentions as well.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq is not even close to being underrated.

Nobody questions that he was he man on his championship teams in 00-02, or that he was the best player at one point, or that he deserved his MVP awards.

On the other hand I've heard the opposite for Kobe. I've seen posters claim Pau was the second best player in the world in 2010, was the real finals MVP, was the best player on the championship teams. They actually think Pau ****ing Gasol was actually better! Who gets this underrated? Also heard Kobe didn't deserve his MVP award and that he was never the best player in the game at any point when you got countless numbers of players saying he was the best, including the players they were saying that we're better than him.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe isn't underrated on ISH either.

[Lebron23]

What difference does it make that he didn't get the award from the media? It still doesn't change the fact he had great seasons in 95, 01, and 05. :facepalm


Because Shaq with 4 MVP, and 3 Finals MVP is greater than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

[Derivative]

Shaq is not even close to being underrated.

Nobody questions that he was he man on his championship teams in 00-02, or that he was the best player at one point, or that he deserved his MVP awards.

On the other hand I've heard the opposite for Kobe. I've seen posters claim Pau was the second best player in the world in 2010, was the real finals MVP, was the best player on the championship teams. They actually think Pau ****ing Gasol was actually better! Who gets this underrated? Also heard Kobe didn't deserve his MVP award and that he was never the best player in the game at any point when you got countless numbers of players saying he was the best, including the players they were saying that we're better than him.

gasol and kobe were alot more closer statistically than kobe and shaq

in 2010 playoffs gasol even had a higher winshare than kobe

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron. Not so much where he's ranked today (obviously the best player ALIVE), not exactly where he's placed historically (somewhere between 11-15 is reasonable IMO), but his ACTUAL level of play and where it stacks up ALL TIME. There are only about 3 or 4 guys that have played at/reached the level Lebron is at currently ... Think about that for a second, folks.

Dude is unreal. Flat out.

[NumberSix]

I don't underrate him. I have him as one of the top 4 players of all time.

[SyRyanYang]

How many great centers had he dominated throughout his career? Not old man Hareem, not young Yao, who else did I leave out?

[NumberSix]

How many great centers had he dominated throughout his career? Not old man Hareem, not young Yao, who else did I leave out?
How many "great" SGs did Michael Jordan dominate? :confusedshrug:

[JerryWest]

What the he'll was God thinking when he created Shaq? Did he even consider anyone's safety? Or at least make our butt holes bigger? :yaohappy:

[DCL]

shaq was the beast of beasts.

high octane diesel tank, say your prayers cuz you ain't got no chance, type of player.

the other elite players are top skilled players, but if basketball was war, they kill you by sharp shooting you to death or with a plethora of weapons in strategic fashion. attacking you with some of this and some of that and keep you guessing what's next. they play the game like chess pieces. fully armed with different tactics and stealth trickery.

but shaq? you know what the hell he's giving you and you still can't stop that sh!t.

da motha****a just drops megaton bombs on your ass all day. what r u gonna do??? you can expect him to catch the ball, bump you with the shoulder, and dunk on your ass on this play, the next play, and the play after that. you know he ain't ever taking no fking jumper, but what r u gonna do bout it??? :confusedshrug: coaches just give up and put 3 guys on him and hack him to stop him from scoring.

watching shaq play was like watching a gorilla rape a man. there's almost no hope for the other guy.

[wagexslave]

He was past his prime on the Suns, flat out sucked for the Cavs/Celtics, and he sucks on TNT. All of these years of him just being a mediocre goofball makes me forget about the amazing/dominant prime Shaq and think of him as the goofy/sh*tty old Shaq. I need to go back and watch some Shaq highlights to remember the beast beasting.

[comerb]

Nobody underrates Shaq you tard

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because Shaq with 4 MVP, and 3 Finals MVP is greater than Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.
What you don't understand is that those great seasons still happened by Shaq, it doesn't matter that the media didn't give him the award. He still had great seasons. Just because the media didn't give him the award he gets ranked lower? :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

gasol and kobe were alot more closer statistically than kobe and shaq

in 2010 playoffs gasol even had a higher winshare than kobe
Shaq and Kobe's ppg difference in the 01 & 02 Playoffs was 1.0 and 1.9 in favor of Shaq.
Kobe and Gasol's ppg difference in the 09 & 10 Playoffs was 11.9 and 9.6 in favor of Kobe.
Shaq and Kobe each led the team in scoring in half the playoff series in 01 & 02.
Kobe in 09 & 10 led the team in scoring in every playoff series.

So no.

Clyde Drexler had a higher WS than Hakeem in the 95 Playoffs, while Robert Horry was within .3 of Hakeem

95 Playoffs:
Drexler 3.0 ws, .167 ws/48
Hakeem 2.8 ws, .143 ws/48
Horry 2.5 ws, .142 ws/48

:facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

And more comments posted clearly makes my point for me that Shaq isn't underrated.

Nobody who gets ranked high all-time and have a knowledge on how great his game was is underrated. The players who are actually underrated on ISH are the ones that don't get talked about enough or are forgotten about despite great stats and accomplishments.

[aau]

Shaq and Kobe's ppg difference in the 01 & 02 Playoffs was 1.0 and 1.9 in favor of Shaq.
Kobe and Gasol's ppg difference in the 09 & 10 Playoffs was 11.9 and 9.6 in favor of Kobe.
Shaq and Kobe each led the team in scoring in half the playoff series in 01 & 02.
Kobe in 09 & 10 led the team in scoring in every playoff series.

So no.



2009 .......... 1stR .......... 2ndR ........... WCF ............ F

kobe ........ 27/5/5 ........ 27/5/4 ........ 34/6/6 ....... 32/5/7
pau ......... 18/9/1 ........ 18/12/2 ...... 17/12/3 ...... 18/9/2

pt diff ......... 9 ................. 9 ............. 17 ............. 14

.

2010

kobe ....... 23/4/4 ......... 32/4/6 ........ 33/7/8 ....... 28/8/4
pau ........ 18/12/3 ....... 23/14/3 ....... 19/7/3 ...... 18/11/3

................... 5 ................ 9 .............. 14 ........... 10

.

2000

shaq ....... 29/17/3 ...... 30/16/2 ....... 26/12/4 ..... 38/16/2
kobe ........ 28/4/4 ........ 21/4/3 ........ 20/5/6 ....... 15/4/4

................... 1 ................ 9 ................ 6 ............ 23

[Whoah10115]

2009 .......... 1stR .......... 2ndR ........... WCF ............ F

kobe ........ 27/5/5 ........ 27/5/4 ........ 34/6/6 ....... 32/5/7
pau ......... 18/9/1 ........ 18/12/2 ...... 17/12/3 ...... 18/9/2

pt diff ......... 9 ................. 9 ............. 17 ............. 14

.

2010

kobe ....... 23/4/4 ......... 32/4/6 ........ 33/7/8 ....... 28/8/4
pau ........ 18/12/3 ....... 23/14/3 ....... 19/7/3 ...... 18/11/3

................... 5 ................ 9 .............. 14 ........... 10

.

2000

shaq ....... 29/17/3 ...... 30/16/2 ....... 26/12/4 ..... 38/16/2
kobe ........ 28/4/4 ........ 21/4/3 ........ 20/5/6 ....... 15/4/4

................... 1 ................ 9 ................ 6 ............ 23




So you just agreed with him, as he never argued what you're arguing? Are you that useless?

[aau]

So you just agreed with him, as he never argued what you're arguing? Are you that useless?

what are you talking about

it confirms deuce's statement

[pegasus]

The problem with Shaq is he did it at a time where there were no great centers. He didn't win it in Orlando with a very good supporting cast. Plus his team was swept so many times before the threepeat.

This is true. It shows the importance of having a superstar teammate like Kobe who could finish games better than he could. That's not to take away from Shaq's brilliance tho. He was an absolute beast for so many years and one of the best centers of all time.

[Whoah10115]

what are you talking about

it confirms deuce's statement


So you're arguing with him, for Bryant?

[pegasus]

2009 .......... 1stR .......... 2ndR ........... WCF ............ F

kobe ........ 27/5/5 ........ 27/5/4 ........ 34/6/6 ....... 32/5/7
pau ......... 18/9/1 ........ 18/12/2 ...... 17/12/3 ...... 18/9/2

pt diff ......... 9 ................. 9 ............. 17 ............. 14

.

2010

kobe ....... 23/4/4 ......... 32/4/6 ........ 33/7/8 ....... 28/8/4
pau ........ 18/12/3 ....... 23/14/3 ....... 19/7/3 ...... 18/11/3

................... 5 ................ 9 .............. 14 ........... 10

.

2000

shaq ....... 29/17/3 ...... 30/16/2 ....... 26/12/4 ..... 38/16/2
kobe ........ 28/4/4 ........ 21/4/3 ........ 20/5/6 ....... 15/4/4

................... 1 ................ 9 ................ 6 ............ 23

Kobe was injured in the Pacers series. The difference would not have been 23 had he been healthy. The first three rounds give you a better picture.

[ShaqAttack3234]

People never seem to understand stuff like this. I'm not saying the poster's point wasn't a valid talking point, but when people just to evaluate things based on bottom lines, they always go into "He lost this many times in the Finals" and, conversely, "He never lost in the Finals"...like what, would you rather lose early? Apparently, that helps a career.

Yeah, there's really no logic behind those sort of things. If two players have 3 rings, and one has two additional finals appearances, is the player who has never lost in the finals more accomplished? I'd say the opposite.

Championships are very difficult, and do require a certain amount of luck(the difference between the '02 and '03 Lakers was Horry's shot in game 4 vs the Kings and Horry's 3 rimming out the following year in game 5 vs the Spurs) Not to mention injuries, and early upsets because of unique match up problems. With every team competing for the same thing, you can't win every year. But if you contend pretty much every year and go deep into the playoffs, that in itself says a lot about the player. Of course to get into certain company, you have to win some in this sport.

Nobody wants to be Jim Kelly and the Bills, but I see no reason additional deep playoff runs aren't impressive.


Shaq is not even close to being underrated.

Nobody questions that he was he man on his championship teams in 00-02, or that he was the best player at one point, or that he deserved his MVP awards.

On the other hand I've heard the opposite for Kobe. I've seen posters claim Pau was the second best player in the world in 2010, was the real finals MVP, was the best player on the championship teams. They actually think Pau ****ing Gasol was actually better! Who gets this underrated? Also heard Kobe didn't deserve his MVP award and that he was never the best player in the game at any point when you got countless numbers of players saying he was the best, including the players they were saying that we're better than him.

I've seen posters claim Kobe was the man on the '01 and '02 Lakers too. At least as many as I've seen claim Pau was the man in '10. It's a different set of posters of course with a different agenda, but both are the minority.

Most know that Kobe was the man on the '09 and '10 Lakers.


gasol and kobe were alot more closer statistically than kobe and shaq

in 2010 playoffs gasol even had a higher winshare than kobe

No, they weren't closer statistically, and who cares if they were? Shaq and Kobe were closer statistically in '01 and '02 than Kobe and Gasol were. They were also closer as players, though not necessarily in terms of value because of how the teams were built. Kobe was essential to the 3peat Lakers like Gasol was to the back to back titles, but Kobe was the superior player.

By the way, if you care so much about garbage stats like win shares, you might be interested to know that Kobe's win shares were better than Shaq in the '01 playoffs. Oh, and Clyde Drexler's win shares were better than Hakeem in the '95 playoffs.

[aau]

Kobe was injured in the Pacers series. The difference would not have been 23 had he been healthy. The first three rounds give you a better picture.

no doubt

that was the 2nd time it'd been said

seems their comments were based on the finals only

[Derivative]

Shaq and Kobe's ppg difference in the 01 & 02 Playoffs was 1.0 and 1.9 in favor of Shaq.
Kobe and Gasol's ppg difference in the 09 & 10 Playoffs was 11.9 and 9.6 in favor of Kobe.
Shaq and Kobe each led the team in scoring in half the playoff series in 01 & 02.
Kobe in 09 & 10 led the team in scoring in every playoff series.

So no.

Clyde Drexler had a higher WS than Hakeem in the 95 Playoffs, while Robert Horry was within .3 of Hakeem

95 Playoffs:
Drexler 3.0 ws, .167 ws/48
Hakeem 2.8 ws, .143 ws/48
Horry 2.5 ws, .142 ws/48

:facepalm


Because all that matters is ppg? That's why Kobe stans are retards, because you can't see more than one stat, either ring or ppg.

Besides ppg there's also rebound, assists, blocks, defense, and especially FIELD GOAL EFFICIENCY, which kobe is inferior.

That's what PER is there for, to make a composite stat to capture all those categories of the game, instead of a simple ppg.

If you only care about PPG, Gilbert arenas is better than Lebron is 06-07 season.

[aau]

Because all that matters is ppg? That's why Kobe stans are retards, because you can't see more than one stat, either ring or ppg.

Besides ppg there's also rebound, assists, blocks, defense, and especially FIELD GOAL EFFICIENCY, which kobe is inferior.

That's what PER is there for, to make a composite stat to capture all those categories of the game, instead of a simple ppg.

If you only care about PPG, Gilbert arenas is better than Lebron is 06-07 season.

shaq had a 4-1 rebound advantage over kobe

what was pau's retard

[Ne 1]

shaq had a 4-1 rebound advantage over kobe

what was pau's retard

FIELD GOAL EFFICIENCY, which kobe is inferior.

Comparing centers to a 2-guard in this regard is about as stupid as it gets, given the fact that they play 2 different position which require DIFFERENT skill sets. Shaq and Pau are post players, Kobe is a perimeter player.

[aau]

Comparing centers to a 2-guard in this regard is about as stupid as it gets, given the fact that they play 2 different position which require DIFFERENT skill sets. Shaq and Pau are post players, Kobe is a perimeter player.

what's your point

kobe grabbed half the rebounds that pau did and scored far more

kobe scored closer to shaq than pau to kobe save the finals

skillsets/positions have nothing to do with comparing

kobe's productivity ratio to either center

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because all that matters is ppg? That's why Kobe stans are retards, because you can't see more than one stat, either ring or ppg.

Besides ppg there's also rebound, assists, blocks, defense, and especially FIELD GOAL EFFICIENCY, which kobe is inferior.

That's what PER is there for, to make a composite stat to capture all those categories of the game, instead of a simple ppg.

If you only care about PPG, Gilbert arenas is better than Lebron is 06-07 season.

I will say that the stats are somewhat deceptive overall for the 2001 playoffs because of the blowouts. 23.2 ppg out of Shaq's 30.4 ppg came when the margin was 10 points or less, while 20.9 ppg out of Kobe's 29.4 ppg came when the margin was 10 points or less.

So it was a little more clear than the final stats suggest that Shaq was their number 1 scoring option, also by watching the games and seeing that the Lakers plan was to go inside to Shaq in the first and see how he's played. That was what made the 1-2 punch more lethal than any we've seen during those playoffs. If Shaq was getting a good amount of single coverage, you could pretty much pencil him in for a highly efficient 35-40 point, 15-20 rebound game, if not, then Kobe would take over and score 35-40 himself while playing an all around game.

Sort of similar to what happened in the Kings series, Shaq has back to back 40/20 games to open the series, and they focus a lot on him, then Kobe goes and delivers the knockout punch in games 3 and 4. Then in the WCF, Kobe destroys the Spurs, the first series which would establish him as a Spurs killer and Shaq continued to dominate the finals.

But what makes Kobe's scoring numbers deceptive is that Kobe wasn't nearly as much of a score first player as you'd think considering he averaged almost 30. He was doing an excellent job of running the offense and setting up his teammates, and when he did score, he picked his spots very well and scored within the flow of the offense. He was playing very intelligently, and I've never seen him attack the basket more aggressively. And this was back when Kobe was an elite defender, but he also averaged over 7 rpg, and this was while his center was averaging over 15 boards.

He never gets credit for it, but it's pretty amazing that he could score that much while running the offense and being the second scoring option. The second option thing is typically used to discredit him, but it's more of a credit to his ability that he was able to produce at a higher level than all, but one first option at the time.

It's still hard to believe that the Lakers had a duo giving them 60 ppg, while each played both ends, rebounded and played unselfishly creating for their teammates which allowed guys like Fisher and Fox to play the best ball of their career.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because all that matters is ppg? That's why Kobe stans are retards, because you can't see more than one stat, either ring or ppg.

Besides ppg there's also rebound, assists, blocks, defense, and especially FIELD GOAL EFFICIENCY, which kobe is inferior.

That's what PER is there for, to make a composite stat to capture all those categories of the game, instead of a simple ppg.

If you only care about PPG, Gilbert arenas is better than Lebron is 06-07 season.
Kobe also led the Lakers in assists in every single series and led the lakers in steals in the 2009.

He didn't just lead in points, he led in ppg by double figures.
As far as assists, he basically had 2x more assists than the next highest teammate

09 Playoffs
Kobe 5.5 apg
Next highest 2.5 apg (Pau)

Who else in the playoffs led their team to a championship while being the team's leading scorer by at least double digits and was the leading assist man by doubling the apg of the next highest teammate? I would like to know that.

10 Playoffs
Kobe 5.5 apg
Next highest 3.5 apg (Pau)

Didn't double it that time..