Best career ever?

[elementally morale]

Who do you think has/had the best career ever?

Wilt? He holds some records, won soe ring... but no... didn't win enough. Bird? Definitely not. He sure has won enough but didn't play long enough. Magic? See Bird. Great player, but too short a career to be considered the greatest. Jordan? Maybe, but I'm leaning towards no. Bill Russell? Well... possibly. He is a good candidate. Shaq? No. Moses Malone? Imressive, but not the best career ever. Karl Malone? No, didn't win enough. Isiah? Absolutely not. Oscar? No. Juius Erwing? No. The Dream? No. Duncan? Well... he is a good candidate, too. LeBron? Too early to tell. Wade? It doesn't look like it. Pau? Dirk? No and no. Great but nowhere near best ever. Same for Barkley, Kidd, Nash, etc.

I could go on and on but I won't. I'll just put here a few names as nominees for best career ever:

Kareem
Russell
Kobe
Duncan

Kareem and Russell most definitely won't add too much basketball related to their respective resumes, but Duncan and Kobe still can. Neither of them will ever become the GOAT, sure. But it is possible one of them is going to have the best career there ever was. Kobe especially has a great chance of doing just that. What if he plays 3-4 more years like this one? Are you sure you want to bet against it?

Anyway... who do you guys think has or had the best career ever?

[KG215]

How can you just no nonchalantly discard Jordan from the discussion?

[KobesFinger]

Gotta go with Bill Russell. Won championships at every level, got the best of his rival on several ocassions, kick-started the Lakers-Celtics rivalry, won 5 individual MVP awards and of course the 11 rings in 13 years.

[dunksby]

Kareem, GOAT career, GOAT basketball player. :bowdown:

[truhooper]

:roll: @ putting kobe

[Sarcastic]

Kevin Garnett made the most money of all time, right? He's gotta up there.

[DonDadda59]

What is your criteria exactly? :confusedshrug:

If we're talking about basketball careers with everything considered (high school, college, NBA) then it's Kareem with Bill Russell in second place.

[elementally morale]

How can you just no nonchalantly discard Jordan from the discussion?

Jordan has a case for having been the greatest player ever (although Kareem has just as good a case in my opinion). Anyway, Jordan has very strong case for GOAT. But for best career? I'm not so sure. Others (like Kareem) played longer. There were some (Russell) who won more.

Now.
Imagine the following. Kobe Bryant plays another 7 years. In the next 2-3 years he plays as well as he has this year. I can easily believe that. Let's imagine he somehow wins another ring. Or two. It's not very likely but I wouldn't bet against it. He may become the player with the most points scored. The most minutes played. Plenty of other records.

Will any ot these achievements make him the best ever? Not a chance. He is top 10, that's it for him. But best career? I think he is going to have a very strong case for that.

[elementally morale]

What is your criteria exactly? :confusedshrug:

If we're talking about basketball careers with everything considered (high school, college, NBA) then it's Kareem with Bill Russell in second place.

I don't have any criteria. Just tell me what you think. I included both Kareem and Russell in my top 4, so I like your choices. However, Duncan and Kobe are not done yet. They are adding to their respective resumes every day, still.

What if they end up playing 5 more years? What if they win some more? It's far from impossible.

[BuffaloBill]

As far as career accomplishments:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird


Kareem has done everything there is to do in basketball


Career highlights and awards
6

[elementally morale]

As far as career accomplishments:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird


I agree with your top 2 for the time being. Top 3, even. Then it's Duncan and Kobe to me, in whatever order. The important thing is: Kareem, Russell and MJ are done with their careers. Duncan and Kobe are not.

How many more years do they need to be in the discussion for best careers? 3 more years? 5? 7? I think 6-7 more years and 1 or 2 more rings would do the trick for Kobe.

[crisoner]

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill]As far as career accomplishments:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird


Kareem has done everything there is to do in basketball


Career highlights and awards
6

[KyrieTheFuture]

I don't understand how the answer is not bill 100% of the time.

[DonDadda59]

I don't have any criteria. Just tell me what you think. I included both Kareem and Russell in my top 4, so I like your choices. However, Duncan and Kobe are not done yet. They are adding to their respective resumes every day, still.

What if they end up playing 5 more years? What if they win some more? It's far from impossible.

Anything's possible but it's highly unlikely especially considering the Lakers are a train wreck. Time always wins out in the end and the Heat and Thunder are filled with studs in their prime. Duncan was great in college but nowhere near as successful as the likes of Alcindor and his NBA career although great is top 10 worthy but not GOAT. Kobe has no college career to speak of, spent 2 years riding the bench, and half his career as a second fiddle. Neither guy is in the conversation and most likely won't be.

Spurs might surprise everyone and win it all this year, but after how they imploded last year and now Parker's injury, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[crisoner]

I don't understand how the answer is not bill 100% of the time.

In a sense it should be.

11 titles....Invented blocking passes.

He won...and that's what it is about.

Kareem comes in to mind as well because of his longevity and simply put scoring RECORD. He is also arguably the greatest college player of all time under Wooden's UCLA dynasty's. And the greatest player to ever come from the Mecca of B-ball....NY!

[imdaman99]

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill]As far as career accomplishments:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird


Kareem has done everything there is to do in basketball


Career highlights and awards
6

[fpliii]

If we don't discount his ABA seasons, the Doctor has to have a case:



ABA:

regular season - 28.7/12.1/4.8/2.4/4.0 on .504/.322/.778 shooting
playoffs - 31.1/12.9/5.1/1.6/1.7 on .519/.250/.795 shooting
1974 Finals - 28.2/11.4/5.0/1.8/1.4 on .513/.333/.750 shooting
1976 Finals - 37.7/14.2/5.3/3.0/2.2 on .590/???/.786 shooting

1971-72 ABA All-ABA (2nd)
1971-72 ABA All-Rookie (1st)
1972-73 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1973-74 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1974-75 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1975-76 ABA All-ABA (1st)
1975-76 ABA All-Defensive (1st)

3xMVP (1973-74, 1974-75 co-MVP, 1975-76)
2xChampion (1974, 1976)

NBA:

regular season - 22.0/6.7/3.9/1.8/1.5 on .507/.261/.777 shooting
playoffs - 21.9/7.0/4.2/1.7/1.7 on .486/.194/.779 shooting
1977 Finals - 30.3/6.8/5.0/2.7/0.8 on .543/--/.857 shooting
1980 Finals - 25.5/7.0/5.0/2.0/2.3 on .522/.250/.708 shooting
1982 Finals - 25.0/8.2/3.3/1.8/1.3 on .543/.000/.720 shooting
1983 Finals - 19.0/8.5/5.0/1.3/2.8 on .469/--/.800 shooting

1976-77 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

1xMVP (1980-81)
1xChampion (1983)

------------------


Though he doesn't have the all-time great college career of some guys you mentioned. SI put out a list a couple of days ago in which it named its ten greatest players in the history of the NCAA tournament:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=292660

So if you take that into account, Kareem and Russell are the top two guys. If you include HS career as well, Cap has to be the guy (GOAT HS player in the eyes of many).

[elementally morale]

I don't understand how the answer is not bill 100% of the time.

Russell or Kareem if the NBA as a whole ended today. But it doesn't.

Theoretically speaking, what if a player ends up with more rings, more years, more games, more points, more ppg and more records hold than Kareem? Wouldn't you call a 25-year long career with the attributes mentioned above better than Kareem's career? I'm not sure I wouldn't.

Yes, I know it's hypothetical right now. It may become reality in 7 years though. Once upon a time it was unthinkable. It has become... not very likely as of now. In 3-4 years' time it is going to become realistic.

[BuffaloBill]

I agree with your top 2 for the time being. Top 3, even. Then it's Duncan and Kobe to me, in whatever order. The important thing is: Kareem, Russell and MJ are done with their careers. Duncan and Kobe are not.

How many more years do they need to be in the discussion for best careers? 3 more years? 5? 7? I think 6-7 more years and 1 or 2 more rings would do the trick for Kobe.



Most likely they'll end up there. But Tim Duncan is still putting up doubles doubles and averaging 3 blocks a game, and Kobe is still being Kobe. Their careers may be nearing their respective ends but I've always been superstitious about ranking active players among the all time greats.

[elementally morale]

I've always been superstitious about ranking active players among the all time greats.

I can relate to that.

On the other hand, we always have history in the making. In retrospect, history looks static. This or that just so and so happened. You can't change it, it's a fact. Static. But lest we forget, there was a time when Kareem wasn't history. I'm old enough to have seen Magic in his rookie year. And I can very well remember the time MJ was thought to be a very taleted underachiever.

For me it's pretty easy to hypothesize, possibly because of the field I'm working in. So it's not at all hard for me to imagine some great player is going to have a few more years of great ball. I've seen it happen many times.

[PHILA]

KAJ if you include high school. Though Russell was better than him both in college and the NBA.

[Dave3]

not impressed. 0 player of the month awards :lebronamazed:
:oldlol: :oldlol:

That elusive POM - without it there is no greatness. Did he at least manage some players of the week? PER records? No? Then this guy's got no chance.

[RidonKs]

I don't understand. Isn't this just a rewording, a more accurate rewording, of asking who is the "best" or "greatest" ever? I always took those conversations to mean what you seem to be invoking with this one.

A better way of asking the question is just to say, if you're a GM and you've gotta take a single career to start your team, who's would it be?

I don't see the difference. I guess the rebuttal is typically that the GOAT discussions are a hybrid of longevity and peak, and a career conversation leans in the direction of the former. But it also contains the peak in it. So I dunno


But the answer is pretty obviously Kareem in my mind. Titles are generally overrated and longevity underrated imo, on this board anyway.

[RRR3]

How has Kobe had a better career than MJ? :biggums:

[STATUTORY]

gotta be kobe if you value all parts of the career equally.

[elementally morale]

I don't understand. Isn't this just a rewording, a more accurate rewording, of asking who is the "best" or "greatest" ever? I always took those conversations to mean what you seem to be invoking with this one.


To me, it's two different things and Kobe is the best way to illlustrate the difference. In my mind, he has zero chance to become the greatest ever. Why? Well, he was never THAT good. There were players who at their peaks were (way) better than Kobe ever was. Jordan. Shaq. Bird. Wilt.

Someone, who never has been in the discuission for best at his peak cannot become the greatest in my book ever. He still can possess the best career though.

Can yoiu see my point? In case you cannot, never mind. It's more than likely my fault.

[elementally morale]

How has Kobe had a better career than MJ? :biggums:

To date, he hasn't. But he may end up with the better career if he continues to play at this level for a few more years.

[crisoner]

To date, he hasn't. But he may end up with the better career if he continues to play at this level for a few more years.

He would need to play at this level and win at least 2 more titles.

[scm5]

To me, it's Jordan.

Jordan's career wasn't just the titles, awards, stats, accomplishments...

Jordan's career was also his influence on basketball. He brought it into the modern era. It's his still current influence on basketball. He's the GOAT.

[elementally morale]

He would need to play at this level and win at least 2 more titles.

Another ring would help, sure. But he has won enough as is. For example, Kareem didn't win more than Russell and he didn't need to win more to be considered just as good. And for most of Kareem's rings there was Magic. Still, Kareem is in the discussion, mainly due to longevity and records IMO. He didn't need to win more than Russell to be considered his equal. He needed all those years though.

Same applies for Kobe, and to a lesser extent, Duncan. You will see. In 3-4 years Kobe is going to become top 3 in many many books. Not in mine, but it is besides the point. Numbers are going to take him there.

[ThaRegul8r]

KAJ if you include high school. Though Russell was better than him both in college and the NBA.

Basically high school is what would put Kareem over the top, as Russell was a slow starter. After high school though, Russell won at unprecedented levels at every subsequent level, in college (then-record win streak), the Olympics (still-standing record for largest margin of victory), and the pros (a never to be touched 11 titles in 13 seasons). And for those that value this highly, he did it all as "The Man," something no one affiliated with those teams would deny. No one's ever led his team to more championships as The Man. And he went out on top, winning as the underdog (and the coach), unlike Jordan, who ruined The Perfect Ending by coming back (again). And Kareem went out getting swept, a shell of his former self. Neither Jordan nor Kareem ever led their teams to upsets over teams they weren't supposed to beat, and Kareem in particular has been upset on several occasions.

[ThaRegul8r]

To date, he hasn't.

If he hasn't after 17 years, that should tell you something.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

This is one of the most ridiculous ways of propping up Kobe I've ever heard. Discounting Jordan because what, he didn't play for a couple of years? Yeah, I'm sure he'd have loved to carry on with the Bulls for a few 2nd round exits because that would make his career better :oldlol:

New thread ideas for you guys.

Best player to retire then come back twice?
Best player to win a title as player-coach?
Best player to score 100 points in a game?
Best player to wear number 33 for the Knicks?

[elementally morale]

If he hasn't after 17 years, that should tell you something.

But it doesn't. Longevity comes with time you know. :-)
I agree with you nobody in the NBA right now has a chance to become the GOAT. But a few have a chance for having the best career. Kobe and LeBron for sure, and I'd add Tim Duncan, too.

[Mr Exlax]

Define "best"

Not trolling but I'd say Greg Oden. Got paid millions and didn't have to work hard to earn them. I was gonna say Rashard Lewis but he started and was overpaid for his production but he didn't miss a ton of games.

[Micku]

Jordan, Russell, Kareem or Magic. I can't really think of anyone beyond those four in terms of sheer success.

Jordan and Kareem basically done it all from individual rewards and championships, and both won in college. Kareem have better longevity but Jordan won more at his peak/prime and he has more influence in basketball.

Russell because championships, basically made defense cool and one of the guys just invented the block shots.

Magic because him and Bird saved the nba and won 5 titles. He beat his rival in college for the championship and in the pros, and been to the finals almost every year in the 80s.

[WillC]

Bill Russell.

Greatest winner of all-time. An almost faultless career.

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m561/Will23C1982/RussellSignatureSmall_zps2d067368.jpg

[Burgz V2]

I don't have any criteria. Just tell me what you think. I included both Kareem and Russell in my top 4, so I like your choices. However, Duncan and Kobe are not done yet. They are adding to their respective resumes every day, still.

What if they end up playing 5 more years? What if they win some more? It's far from impossible.

i'll bet my first child that neither do

[Legends66NBA7]

Bill Russell has my vote.

Even the what if game is interesting with him and I really don't see anybody who had a better career or hypothetical one.


To date, he hasn't. But he may end up with the better career if he continues to play at this level for a few more years.

I respectfully disagree. Although, I think it would be safe to say that Bryant has a Top 10 career if he does continue to play more years at a high level.

[ThaRegul8r]

But it doesn't. Longevity comes with time you know. :-)

Time?

It's not like we're talking about LeBron here. Kobe's played more seasons than all but, what, about a dozen or so players in the history of the league?

Parish (21)
Kevin Willis (21)
Kareem (20)
Stockton (19)
Kidd (19)
Oakley (19)
Karl Malone (19)
Moses Malone (19)
Shaq (19)
Hakeem (18)
Miller (18)
Payton (18)
Garnett (18)
Cliff Robinson (18)

I don't think I've missed anyone. So how much more time does one need? :oldlol: If someone didn't think Kareem was the GOAT after 17 seasons, then a couple more seasons of being a below-average rebounder and offensive role player (with even his efficiency taking a dive in his last season, as he dropped below 50% shooting for the first time in his career) wasn't going to be the deciding factor to sway them over whomever they thought was the GOAT before Kareem. :D

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem hands down. Russell, Jordan do not come close to Kareem's high school/college record.

It is true Jordan had immense impact on the game that is felt today--but that impact is in marketing terms, i.e. the NBA changing regarding flagrant fouls during Jordan's time and then changing things again in the mid-2000's to make it easier to find a "new Jordan"/increase scoring. Jordan is why the NBA now is a perimeter-oriented league despite being a center dominated league pre-Jordan. However, in terms of dominance on the court, though, well dunking was banned to try to contain Kareem. The rules were changed to hinder Kareem, Wilt and Shaq. That was never done vis-a-vis Jordan since he was such a cash cow. Hell, if anything changes such as flagrant fouls to crack down on tough, rough defense was aimed at aiding MJ.

[teddytwelvetoes]

Gotta go with Bill Russell. Won championships at every level, got the best of his rival on several ocassions, kick-started the Lakers-Celtics rivalry, won 5 individual MVP awards and of course the 11 rings in 13 years.This. The man won an NCAA title, Olympic gold, and an NBA title in roughly one year. :biggums: :bowdown:

[DatAsh]

Hmmm, I'd have to think about this for a bit. Though the top nine or so seem pretty obvious in my opinion.




Bill Russell: 11x NBA Champion 5x MVP (at least)8-9x Finals MVP

(big gap)

Michael Jordan: 6x NBA Champion 5x MVP 6x Finals MVP
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6x NBA Champion 6x MVP 2x Finals MVP

(small gap)

Magic Johnson: 5x NBA Champion 3x MVP 3x Finals MVP
John Havlicek: 8x NBA Champion 1x MVP 1x Finals MVP

(small gap)

Tim Duncan: 4x NBA Champion 2x MVP 3x Finals MVP
Kobe Bryant: 5x NBA Champion 1x MVP 2x Finals MVP
Shaquille O'Neal: 4x NBA Champion 1x MVP 3x Finals MVP
Bob Cousy: 6x NBA Champion 1x MVP


After that, I'd have to think a bit harder.

[daily]

What is your criteria exactly? :confusedshrug:

If we're talking about basketball careers with everything considered (high school, college, NBA) then it's Kareem with Bill Russell in second place.

Kareem hands down

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson

Bill Russell played in the 50s and 60s, was not force on the offensive end, had at least 3 HOFers doing all the lifting on offense on all those championships. Kareem missed the playoffs twice in his prime, and was not player that he was like in the 70s during his last 4 championships, Magic was leading the team. Wilt, didnt win enough rings. George Mikan arguably has a better career then Wilt, but no one talks about him like they do for guys like Bill Russell. Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals and was the best player in the world for all of those rings, has every accolade and then some. 2 3peats in the modern era, incredible. Magic won 5 championships and been to 9 finals, 9! The only year he wasnt the best player on his team was his rookie year in the '80 championship team, and even then he had 42/12/7 in the clinching game without Kareem and won FMVP.

[TheCorporation]

I'll take the guy that has:

5 regular season MVPs
6 finals appearances and 6 Finals MVPs
10 consecutive scoring titles (Will never be broken)
Highest career ppg in NBA history
Most points scored in NBA history (5,987)

[Harison]

I don't understand how the answer is not bill 100% of the time.

This. Russell has more accomplished career than Kareem. Its funny how some post what Kareem accomplished and "forget" to post even more impressive resume by Rus.

[tazb]

gotta be kobe if you value all parts of the career equally.

Jordan shits on him everything statically and has more accolades. Kobe is the one who copied MJ's game not the other way around. :facepalm

[game3524]

If you are looking at Basketball career and not just the NBA then it is Kareem.

[Lebron23]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ougtScxo1qcx3szo1_1280.jpg

[WillC]

If you are looking at Basketball career and not just the NBA then it is Kareem.

All the people who keep saying Kareem because of his college career obviously don't know what Bill Russell achieved in college...

Russell led the University of San Francisco to NCAA championships in 1955 and 1956, including a string of 55 consecutive victories. Ok, Kareem won more, but Russell's college career is still one of the greatest ever.

Russell won a gold medal at the 1956 Summer Olympics as captain of the U.S. national basketball team. Kareem never even played a game for the USA.

Russell was also the first black professional sports coach.

[Mrofir]

Ok, I read the thread.

Kareem wins

[NuggetsFan]

Jordan. Consensus best basketball player ever. Awards, rings, whatever you list will always come up short compared to that. I don't even agree with it, the media shoved Jordan down you're throat and continues to do after all this time. He's still the main guy in video guy's being made in 2012.

If I could pick any NBA career, I'd take the one that majority thinks is the best. Jordan is like the Wayne G of hockey or Tiger Woods of golf. Casual, hardcore, somebody who doesn't even watch basketball will say Jordan is the best basketball player of all time for the most part, that's what I'd want.

If you're talking just resume at every level of the sport than give me Kareem.

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem, GOAT career, GOAT basketball player. :bowdown:
:applause: :cheers: :rockon:

[Mrofir]

Jordan. Consensus best basketball player ever. Awards, rings, whatever you list will always come up short compared to that. I don't even agree with it, the media shoved Jordan down you're throat and continues to do after all this time. He's still the main guy in video guy's being made in 2012.

If I could pick any NBA career, I'd take the one that majority thinks is the best. Jordan is like the Wayne G of hockey or Tiger Woods of golf. Casual, hardcore, somebody who doesn't even watch basketball will say Jordan is the best basketball player of all time for the most part, that's what I'd want.

If you're talking just resume at every level of the sport than give me Kareem.

This.

[The Iron Fist]

All the people who keep saying Kareem because of his college career obviously don't know what Bill Russell achieved in college...

Russell led the University of San Francisco to NCAA championships in 1955 and 1956, including a string of 55 consecutive victories. Ok, Kareem won more, but Russell's college career is still one of the greatest ever.

Russell won a gold medal at the 1956 Summer Olympics as captain of the U.S. national basketball team. Kareem never even played a game for the USA.

Russell was also the first black professional sports coach.
Kareem never played in the olympics.

Now explain why.

[ThaRegul8r]

Jordan. Consensus best basketball player ever. Awards, rings, whatever you list will always come up short compared to that. I don't even agree with it, the media shoved Jordan down you're throat and continues to do after all this time. He's still the main guy in video guy's being made in 2012.

If I could pick any NBA career, I'd take the one that majority thinks is the best.

The question being asked is, "Who do you think has/had the best career ever?" You're certainly entitled to say Jordan, as others have, but say Jordan because that's who you think is the answer to the question, not because "the media shoved Jordan down your throat and continues to do after all this time," or because the majority thinks it's the best. As John Stuart Mill said, "The mental [faculties] are called into no exercise by doing a thing merely because others do it, no more than by believing a thing only because others believe it."

[NuggetsFan]

The question being asked is, "Who do you think has/had the best career ever?" You're certainly entitled to say Jordan, as others have, but say Jordan because that's who you think is the answer to the question, not because "the media shoved Jordan down your throat and continues to do after all this time," or because the majority thinks it's the best. As John Stuart Mill said, "The mental [faculties] are called into no exercise by doing a thing merely because others do it, no more than by believing a thing only because others believe it."

Question is who do I think had the best career. NBA is something that is viewed by millions, I think the best career would be the one that is accepted as the best ever. If I could pick the best NBA career, I would take the person that is viewed around the world as the best human being to ever pick up a basketball. I think that would be the best NBA career because of how everybody else views it. It's not following others, it's using knowledge to form my own opinion. If I woke up next week and somebody was like pick any career in the NBA and live it and make sure you chose the best one, it'd be Jordan.

If were talking resume I'd rather have Kareem's career from a basketball accomplishment. Remove era, talent etc. at all levels of basketball like HS/NCAA/NBA Kareem or Russell takes it for me.

[WillC]

Kareem never played in the olympics.

Now explain why.

Because he boycotted the Olympics. Which I respect.

But, the fact remains, Bill Russell has an Olympic gold medal as team captain, whereas Kareem does not.

[NuggetsFan]

Seriously. What would you want?

5 MVP's
67ppg average
25 championships

or

Be considered the best human being at basketball by everybody. People who don't give a f*ck about basketball know you're the best at it. Everything is irrelevant at that point. I'd rather be one of the VERY select few that are globally accepted as the best in there craft.

Choice A is obviously the best resume in history, but choice B would clearly be the better career. 2 + 2 isn't 4 if nobody else views it that way.

[WillC]

Question is who do I think had the best career. NBA is something that is viewed by millions, I think the best career would be the one that is accepted as the best ever. If I could pick the best NBA career, I would take the person that is viewed around the world as the best human being to ever pick up a basketball. I think that would be the best NBA career because of how everybody else views it. It's not following others, it's using knowledge to form my own opinion. If I woke up next week and somebody was like pick any career in the NBA and live it and make sure you chose the best one, it'd be Jordan.

If were talking resume I'd rather have Kareem's career from a basketball accomplishment. Remove era, talent etc. at all levels of basketball like HS/NCAA/NBA Kareem or Russell takes it for me.

Rather than just accepting the majority's opinion as the truth, why not question it? Why not try to educate people?

Russell had a more successful career than Jordan.

It's a fact.

But millions of people around the world are unaware, hence they think Jordan's career was better.

[monkeypox]

Overall career it has to be Kareem. I think he went undefeated from like junior high school till that one famous game in college. He won titles with two completely different teams, something that neither Russel nor Jordan did.

[NuggetsFan]

Rather than just accepting the majority's opinion as the truth, why not question it? Why not try to educate people?

Russell had a more successful career than Jordan.

It's a fact.

But millions of people around the world are unaware, hence they think Jordan's career was better.

I agree. I do think Jordan's the GOAT but guy's like Kareem, Wilt, Russell etc. are alot closer than people make them out to be. I don't agree with it being as much of a consensus as it is. I don't think he should hold as much of a strangle hold on the #1 spot like a Wayne Gretzky or Tiger Woods, but he does.

With all that being said you can't educate or change the opinions of the masses. Were not talking about an internet forum or a city, you're talking about how the general public views basketball and the NBA as a whole.

IMO if I could pick one NBA career to live out or pick a career that is the best I would take Jordan. Not because I think he was the best talent or had the best mix of success as an NBA player but because he's considered the greatest basketball player of All-Time by the masses.

Kareem/Russell for the best resumes at all levels.

[WillC]

Overall career it has to be Kareem. I think he went undefeated from like junior high school till that one famous game in college. He won titles with two completely different teams, something that neither Russel nor Jordan did.

I'd rather win 11 championships with one team than 6 championships with two teams.....

Meanwhile, Kareem was the best player on only 2 (or perhaps 3) of those championship teams.

[ThaRegul8r]

Question is who do I think had the best career. NBA is something that is viewed by millions, I think the best career would be the one that is accepted as the best ever. If I could pick the best NBA career, I would take the person that is viewed around the world as the best human being to ever pick up a basketball. I think that would be the best NBA career because of how everybody else views it. It's not following others, it's using knowledge to form my own opinion.

But you're saying you'd choose the best NBA career, quote, "because of how everybody else views it." That's by definition following others. It's, by definition, argumentum ad populum, which isn't "using knowledge to form your own opinion," but a fallacy of logic. As I said, I'm not arguing your choice of Jordan, as that's your right, nor am I trying to start an argument with you. I'm merely pointing out that the reason for someone being your choice solely because "everyone else" says isn't a real reason at all. If one is using knowledge to form one's own opinion, it shouldn't even be necessary to refer to popular opinion at all. It should stand on its own.

[NuggetsFan]

But you're saying you'd choose the best NBA career, quote, "because of how everybody else views it." That's by definition following others. It's, by definition, argumentum ad populum, which isn't "using knowledge to form your own opinion," but a fallacy of logic. As I said, I'm not arguing your choice of Jordan, as that's your right, nor am I trying to start an argument with you. I'm merely pointing out that the reason for someone being your choice solely because "everyone else" says isn't a real reason at all. If one is using knowledge to form one's own opinion, it shouldn't even be necessary to refer to popular opinion at all. It should stand on its own.

I guess I'm just really bad at explaining myself. My own opinion is Kareem/Russel for accomplishments at all levels of basketball, all tho I do think Jordan is the GOAT.

If I had to pick for best career, it'd be Jordan because of how everybody else views it. If I was 10 years old and a homeless person was like hey little boy what career would you want in the history of basketball? If I was going to pick the best it'd be Jordan. MVP's are nice, championships are awesome, dominating the NCAA level or raping the record book are all amazing things. Being accepted as the best basketball player ever by the world blows those things to pieces tho. Being the consensus best human being at the sport of basketball is greater than any award there is. If Jose Calderon was the consensus best basketball player, even if I knew he wasn't even a top 10 player in the NBA I'd take that career because of it. I'd still say hey look Jose Calderon isn't even an All-Star, you guy's are crazy. If I had to pick one career to live out, one career that was the best than I would take the one that is accepted to fans, peers, followers, non followers as the best.

Not following others because that's not my personal opinion. I enjoyed the movie Superbad more than I did Shawshank Redemption, but if you asked me what movie I would pick to re-create than the answer would be obvious. If you asked me what movie I liked the best than once again it would be obvious to me.

Jordan is Shawshank Redemption, Kareem/Russell are Superbad. I don't know if I'm just really tired and not making sense or what :oldlol:

[Jasper]

I like Hondo

Dude was on a team I hated "Boston" , but he played with Russell and then went on as the team leader as well as first option with the Cowen's teams.

Dude has All-Star appearance a boat load of rings and played for 'ONE' team.
Constant pro , and always , always always played his heart out.

If I were to ever play in the league as one of the greats - it would be this all time 50 great.... The city , state , and country loved to watch him play.

[elementally morale]

Quick update: I received 3 negs for this thread. Neither of them told who they were, so all I can tell you is it cost me 21 points altogether. :oldlol:

One of the negs had a comment, telling me the reason I got negged: KAJ is not a top 4 player of all time, the dude said. I'm wondering how old he may be. (Not KAJ, that I know or at least can google if I don't.)

[NumberSix]

Bill Russell had the best career. 11 chips and 5 MVPs in 13 seasons. It's not even close.

[jlip]

Russell...From his junior year of college until his retirement from the NBA there was only one time that he didn't end a season as a champion while healthy. His post high school b-ball career really has the fewest low points of any all time great. Combine that with the fact the also picked up several individual accolades such as MVPs and statistical titles along the way, it's hard to argue against him having the most successful career.

[zizozain]

Kareem ...... not even close

Individual achievement: 6 MVP's (1st all-time), top 5 in MVP voting 15x, all-time leading scorer, third all-time in rebounds and blocks, led the league in scoring 3x, led the league in rebounding 2x, led the league in blocks 4x, led the league in field goal percentage 1x, 15x all-NBA (10x first team), 11x all-Defense (5x first team), 19x all-star

Impact on teams: Took a 27 win expansion team to 56 wins and the conference finals as rookie, brought the Bucks their only championship in his second season. Whenever he was hurt during his prime his teams collapsed (i.e. going 3-14 without him when they were 35-30 with him dragging "scrubs").

Longevity: He was top-five in MVP voting at age 38. Can anyone else say this?

Dominance: He averaged 30/16/5 on 54% shooting during his prime.

Winning: 6 championships, 10 NBA finals, 14 conference finals, 18 winning seasons in 20 years.

Just look at Kareem's win totals: 56, 66, 63, 60, 58, 38*, 40, 53, 45, 47, 60, 54, 57, 58, 54, 62, 62, 65, 62, 57

*They were 3-14 without him, 35-30 with him. That is the difference between 44 wins or 14 wins.

If you factor in college (Kareem: 88-2 in college, 3 for 3 in winning championships, beat the #1 ranked team in the nation with a team of freshman, dominated so much they banned dunking, clearly the best college player of his time and probably all-time, etc.) and high school (79-2, 3 straight championships) it is no contest. Only Russell can match Kareem's amazing ability to win wherever he went, but Russell cannot match Kareem's individual brilliance.


from the thread: Is Kareem the GOAT?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154360

[kennethgriffin]

kareem easly... gotta factor in college, longevity, totals ontop of averages, rings, mvps

[crisoner]

Quick update: I received 3 negs for this thread. Neither of them told who they were, so all I can tell you is it cost me 21 points altogether. :oldlol:

One of the negs had a comment, telling me the reason I got negged: KAJ is not a top 4 player of all time, the dude said. I'm wondering how old he may be. (Not KAJ, that I know or at least can google if I don't.)

Yeah man we got some really annoying kids on here. I get the same crap all the time.

The LeBron generation man.

[imnew09]

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill]As far as career accomplishments:

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Kobe
8. Bird


Kareem has done everything there is to do in basketball


Career highlights and awards
6

[iamgine]

Don't career also involve money being made?

[zizozain]

- Kareem didn't get Magic until he was 32

- Jordan without Pippen?

38-44, first round exit
30-52*, first round exit (MJ injured but back to get swept by Bird)
40-42, first round exit at the hands of Bird again
37-45, missed playoffs
37-45, missed playoffs

- Kareem was 38, he still got All-NBA First Team honors

- Kareem's win totals by year: (inheriting a 27 win expansion team) 56, 66, 63, 60, 58, 38*, 40, 53, 45, 47, 60, 54, 57, 58, 54, 62, 62, 65, 62, 57

- KAJ played against 37 of the NBAs 50 greatest players and still amassed tons of awards and stats. Think about that, he played against over half of the NBAs greatest players.

- Jordan could never reach more than 50 wins without the perfect coach, perfect offense, and perfect team. Lebron won 66 games with the weakest supporting cast of any playoff team


KAJ=GOAT - Fatal9 - Roundball_Rock

[Dragonyeuw]

Jordan has a case for having been the greatest player ever (although Kareem has just as good a case in my opinion). Anyway, Jordan has very strong case for GOAT. But for best career? I'm not so sure. Others (like Kareem) played longer. There were some (Russell) who won more.



In 13 seasons Jordan accomplished 10 scoring titles, 5 MVPS, 6 titles, 6 FMVPs,all-time scoring PPG leader and somehow this doesn't qualify as a candidate for GOAT career?

[COnDEMnED]

Russell or Kareem if the NBA as a whole ended today. But it doesn't.

Theoretically speaking, what if a player ends up with more rings, more years, more games, more points, more ppg and more records hold than Kareem? Wouldn't you call a 25-year long career with the attributes mentioned above better than Kareem's career? I'm not sure I wouldn't.

Yes, I know it's hypothetical right now. It may become reality in 7 years though. Once upon a time it was unthinkable. It has become... not very likely as of now. In 3-4 years' time it is going to become realistic.
Is this for real? Are you implying in 7 years Lebron would be compared to Bill and Cap? I very rarely speak out against people propping up Lebron in a homerish way, but in this case I think if you are predicting Lebron ends up #3 on the all time list (bumping down Bill and Cap) in 7 years, then you might as well be crazy enough to say hes going to be better than Jordan too. In my opinion he cracks anywhere from top 8-6 when his career is over, I dont see him cracking that top 5 tho, let alone top 2 or 3.

[Dragonyeuw]

- Jordan without Pippen?

38-44, first round exit
30-52*, first round exit (MJ injured but back to get swept by Bird)
40-42, first round exit at the hands of Bird again
37-45, missed playoffs
37-45, missed playoffs


- Jordan could never reach more than 50 wins without the perfect coach, perfect offense, and perfect team. Lebron won 66 games with the weakest supporting cast of any playoff team




- I love how this worn out argument about Jordan's record without Pippen always ignores that he basically played with scrubs until Pippen and Grant came onboard and developed into dependable supporting players around 1990.

-Jordan couldn't reach 50 wins without a perfect team, coach etc? You mean like the 1987-88 season when the Bulls went 50-32 with Doug Collins as coach and Pip and Grant were rookies scoring 7 points a game? That perfect team and coach?

[boozehound]

I don't understand how the answer is not bill 100% of the time.
this

[zizozain]

-Jordan couldn't reach 50 wins without a perfect team, coach etc? You mean like the 1987-88 season when the Bulls went 50-32 with Doug Collins as coach and Pip and Grant were rookies scoring 7 points a game? That perfect team and coach?
read again ... MORE than 50

[Jailblazers7]

I'll take the guy that has:

5 regular season MVPs
6 finals appearances and 6 Finals MVPs
10 consecutive scoring titles (Will never be broken)
Highest career ppg in NBA history
Most points scored in NBA history (5,987)

Durant might have a shot at this record. He already has 3 in a row (prob 4 after this season) and he is 24 years old about to hit his prime.

[kshutts1]

Who do you think has/had the best career ever?

LeBron? Too early to tell.

Kobe especially has a great chance of doing just that. What if he plays 3-4 more years like this one? Are you sure you want to bet against it?

Anyway... who do you guys think has or had the best career ever?



Imagine the following. Kobe Bryant plays another 7 years.

Why not start your thread off with...

My agenda is to make people call Kobe the Player with the Greatest Career ever?

Too early for Lebron, yet you say Kobe needs to play another 7 years? :roll:

[elementally morale]

Is this for real? Are you implying in 7 years Lebron would be compared to Bill and Cap? I very rarely speak out against people propping up Lebron in a homerish way, but in this case I think if you are predicting Lebron ends up #3 on the all time list (bumping down Bill and Cap) in 7 years, then you might as well be crazy enough to say hes going to be better than Jordan too. In my opinion he cracks anywhere from top 8-6 when his career is over, I dont see him cracking that top 5 tho, let alone top 2 or 3.

When I said 6-7 more years I was talking about Kobe's career, not LeBron's. LeBron would need an additional 15, playing at a high level. As far as I can tell, he (LeBron) is better than ever and shows no signs of slowing down yet. Therefore, I say he has a realistic chance at attempting to have the best career ever. He is not even top 10 now, but time is on his side. (I'm far from being a fan of the guy, BTW.)

[elementally morale]

Why not start your thread off with...

My agenda is to make people call Kobe the Player with the Greatest Career ever?

Too early for Lebron, yet you say Kobe needs to play another 7 years? :roll:

Nah, I'm a bit old to have an agenda at a random site on the internet. :cheers:

SAd or funny as it sounds, I actually really do think Kobe does have a chance being thought of as the guy with the best basketball career there ever was. The rings are already there. Some additional ring(s) and/or MVPs would help, but records and some more years alone will be enough if he plays at this level for a few more years.

[elementally morale]

Originally Posted by KyrieTheFuture
I don't understand how the answer is not bill 100% of the time.

It's because we have opinions, not facts. I can easily understand people picking KAJ. My pick is either him or Russell. But I can also easily understand people picking MJ.

The thing I can never understand is this: Why do people think today's players are not a part of 'history'? We all are. In 1990, MJ wasn't thought of as the best player of all time, even though he was just as good as in 1992-93, when the media started to label him the GOAT. I was almost 20 at the time and didn't want to accept it. But as the years flew by... my perception changed.

Perceptions do change and there is nothing you can do against it. And nothing you should.

[Dragonyeuw]

read again ... MORE than 50

You gonna play a game of word semantics? The point you were trying to make is Jordan didn't do anything unless he had superstar teammates and coaching around him, which is false. Bottomline is, he led a team with scrubs and a rookie Pippen and Grant to 50 wins in a very talented Eastern conference. In fact, it took Pippen and Grant 4 years to develop into anything decent and Jordan was still leading the undermanned Bulls to 7 game series against the eventual champion Pistons. Let's also not act like the eastern conference of 3-4 years ago that Lebron led the Cavs to 60+ wins was ANYWHERE NEAR as good as the competition Jordan was facing in the late 80's.

[Dragonyeuw]

- KAJ played against 37 of the NBAs 50 greatest players and still amassed tons of awards and stats. Think about that, he played against over half of the NBAs greatest players.



Half of those players probably wouldn't even make the list if it was done today. By comparison, Jordan has played against the following:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Charles Barkley
Larry Bird
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Magic Johnson
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Kevin Mchale
Hakeem Olajuwan
Shaquille Oneal
Robert Parish
David Robinson
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
James Worthy

are all NBA 50 greatest players, plus the following:

Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce
Ray Allen
Steve Nash

Those bolded players are the names you generally hear listed as top 20-25 players all-time. And Jordan played against all of them.

[fpliii]

I'm not big on the GOAT discussion anymore, but it's nice to see that most posters understand that it's wide open (as a subjective designation), with a good handful of candidates.

[Odinn]

I can't decide as for the best. But my top 3 is pretty clear for me.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Michael Jordan.
You can't go wrong with any of them.

[gengiskhan]

:roll: @ putting kobe

-NO NCAA legacy
-NO ACC Player of the year award.
-NO NCAA Championship

-NO NBA Rookie of the year award.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :applause: :applause: :applause:

He is lucky NBA's winningest franchise drafted him & made his career.

If Kobe was a Charlotte Hornets or New Orleans Hornet. The highest he'll ever get in playoffs is Eastern Conference Finals with his 45%FG & poor shot selection. :lol :lol

Atleast, Dwight, LBJ got to NBA Finals on their own! :coleman:

[red1]

jordan had the best career, no doubt

[gengiskhan]

jordan had the best career, no doubt

Most Probably...

BUT

Kareem has SUPERIOR NCAA career to MJ's.

Magic is EXCELLENT too.
-NCAA champion
-Finals MVP as a rookie playing the Center position!!
-Multiple Season MVPs

Bird is another NCAA legend & NBA Legend
-NCAA Finalist
-NBA rookie of the year
-Multiple MVP "sweeps". etc etc.

Lebron skipping NCAA BUT...
-NBA Rookie of the year
-Multiple season MVPs so far.

[red1]

Most Probably...

BUT

Kareem has SUPERIOR NCAA career to MJ's.

Magic is EXCELLENT too.
-NCAA champion
-Finals MVP as a rookie playing the Center position!!
-Multiple Season MVPs

Bird is another NCAA legend & NBA Legend
-NCAA Finalist
-NBA rookie of the year
-Multiple MVP "sweeps". etc etc.

Lebron skipping NCAA BUT...
-NBA Rookie of the year
-Multiple season MVPs so far.
lebron magic and bird are not on that level, only kareem measures up

[RidonKs]

To me, it's two different things and Kobe is the best way to illlustrate the difference. In my mind, he has zero chance to become the greatest ever. Why? Well, he was never THAT good. There were players who at their peaks were (way) better than Kobe ever was. Jordan. Shaq. Bird. Wilt.

Someone, who never has been in the discuission for best at his peak cannot become the greatest in my book ever. He still can possess the best career though.

Can yoiu see my point? In case you cannot, never mind. It's more than likely my fault.
I got you but I still disagree.

To use your example, say hypothetically Kobe plays until he's 42 or something crazy like that. And only really drops off to a 15-20 ppg second option shooter in his last 2-3 seasons. And wins the championship or at least reaches the finals on one or two more occasions, because he probably would. That's 25 seasons.

To me, he becomes the greatest player of all time. Like I said I think longevity is criminally underrated. Kobe at his best is worse than MJ and Wilt and a few others at their best, no doubt. But that gap in the grand scheme is minuscule. The number of games a team actually manages to win in a season, and the success they have in the postseason, all other things being equal, doesn't vary much between say MJ and Hakeem.

So if I have to weigh that slight difference in peak/overall ability or talent or overall awesome-ness, whatever you want to call it... against SEVEN extra seasons of having a guy play at a high level?

I don't think the debate is even close. Like I said, I clearly put more stock into longevity than most do on this board. And it makes sense; accounting for what we actually see we do by instinct, accounting for how long we see it takes a little more statistical digging. It's tricky to weight either factor accurately and people do it differently... generally speaking though, I think longevity gets downplayed more than it should.

So as I say, the real question should be the one you phrased in this thread; if I can have any player on my team for the entirety of his NBA career, start to finish, who would I choose?

[ThaRegul8r]

To use your example, say hypothetically Kobe plays until he's 42 or something crazy like that. And only really drops off to a 15-20 ppg second option shooter in his last 2-3 seasons. And wins the championship or at least reaches the finals on one or two more occasions, because he probably would. That's 25 seasons.

To me, he becomes the greatest player of all time.

Unless he pulls an '85 Kareem, I don't see how past-prime seasons are supposed to make him the greatest of all time if he isn't already. (Putting aside for a moment, the absurdity that, even hypothetically, he'd play almost a decade more in the first place) We've seen his best. He's only going to get worse. As Barkley continually says, "Father Time is undefeated." Why not just be honest and just come out and say you think Kobe's the greatest now?

[RidonKs]

Unless he pulls an '85 Kareem, I don't see how past-prime seasons are supposed to make him the greatest of all time if he isn't already. (Putting aside for a moment, the absurdity that, even hypothetically, he'd play almost a decade more in the first place) We've seen his best. He's only going to get worse. As Barkley continually says, "Father Time is undefeated." Why not just be honest and just come out and say you think Kobe's the greatest now?
They push a guy higher on the overall list because those seasons aren't irrelevant. Why shouldn't they matter? Three or four extra seasons as a top ten player, or even a top twenty player. That still puts you in the 95th percentile of the entire league. Which is huge and could easily push a team over the hump. I don't understand how you could possibly suggest otherwise.

Like I said, the measure of a player should be determined by what he does in the league. Pointblank. What's absurd would be to discount how long he actually manages to do it. The only part of my post you might disagree with is whether or not the degree of difference between the best ten basketball players to ever play is wide enough to compensate for __ extra seasons playing at a reasonably high level.

I used Kobe as an example because EM brought him up. Yeah it's absurd in context but it isn't unfathomable to imagine somebody playing 23+ seasons in this day and age if they had the passion to keep going.

I think I was responding honestly but jeez, maybe you're right and I was clouded by infatuation and hero worship and I really do think Kobe Bryant is better than everybody else no matter what and I should rethink everything I ever believed. Thanks for the advice dude.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think I was responding honestly but jeez, maybe you're right and I was clouded by infatuation and hero worship and I really do think Kobe Bryant is better than everybody else no matter what and I should rethink everything I ever believed. Thanks for the advice dude.

Your post was fine until this, which was pointless and unnecessary. Were it directed to anyone else, it could have ended up degenerating into something equally pointless.

[RidonKs]

:lol YOUR post was fine until you implied that I thought Kobe Bryant was the greatest player ever. And since only the most unbearably deluded fanatic would ever actually think that, that was below the belt and I responded in turn. But w/e

Do you agree then? or are you just agreeing to disagree? It's all case by case and junk but I stand by my main point that longevity is underrated. Having a top ten player of all-time for just a few more seasons is of enormous value, and even once he tapers off in his last few years, accounting for experience iq feel for the game leadership and those sorts of intangibles, he would remain a tremendous asset for a period that shouldn't just be dismissed as irrelevant... since if he retired before that point, he would be of no use whatsoever. He would just appear better because he ended on a high note. like costanza lol

[MisterAmazing]

Best role player career ever:

http://newspaper.li/static/bd1938c1f082a3c8c9ff00dd41da2f64.jpg

[fpliii]

(Sorta OT:) Great quote I found in an article from SI's vault (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1146601/index.htm):


Over a long season, a team's record reflects the strengths and weaknesses of all its players. But in just a few games, the inspired play of one man may often bring victory to an inferior team.

:applause:

[elementally morale]

Update #2

I now have 6 negs for this thread along with one green rep. Neither of those six cared to tell me who they were. I was told stop being a girl by one guy, grow up by another and get with the program by someone else. Funny stuff.

[elementally morale]

I got you but I still disagree.

To use your example, say hypothetically Kobe plays until he's 42 or something crazy like that. And only really drops off to a 15-20 ppg second option shooter in his last 2-3 seasons. And wins the championship or at least reaches the finals on one or two more occasions, because he probably would. That's 25 seasons.

To me, he becomes the greatest player of all time. Like I said I think longevity is criminally underrated.

I can see your point. However, nothing Kobe will do can make me think he is the greatest of all time -- unless he somehow will get better than he ever was which is unlikely. On the other hand, he still has time to do things that prompt me to say he will have had the best career ever.

Had he started to play smarter a lot sooner, he could have become the greatest ever. It's not lack of skill he isn't. It's all mental. In his last few years he is going to play smart, I know. He should've started in 2004 and I think he could've become the GOAT.

He ran out of time for that one, mainly due to his peak not coming back ever again (unless some sort of a miracle happens).

On the other hand: Most casual fans will have him in their top 3 by the time he retires. And there won't be many diehards who leave him out of their top 10s.

[willds09]

Jordan, Iverson could of:confusedshrug:

[La Frescobaldi]

Update #2

I now have 6 negs for this thread along with one green rep. Neither of those six cared to tell me who they were. I was told stop being a girl by one guy, grow up by another and get with the program by someone else. Funny stuff.

I just gave you a good one because this is an interesting tale

[La Frescobaldi]

lebron magic and bird are not on that level, only kareem measures up

they are either very very close or they do measure up. I think they are close enought to make an argument.

and james is just getting warmed up, he is very likely to single-handedly destroy an entire propaganda machine. I hope your head doesn't explode when your world does.

[Scholar]

This thread could've been a better one if OP actually placed criterias. He nonchalantly dismissed practically all the all-time greats without any reasons cited.
For some, he declared they didn't "win enough." If winning is the main criteria, Bill Russell easily takes the throne. 11 rings in 13 years? That means he won a championship ~85% of the time he played.
If it's not "winning rings," then what is it?

Most pts = Kareem
Most rings = Bill Russell
Most MVPs = MJ
Most minutes = Kareem
Most... Whatever. We can go on and on.

[elementally morale]

This thread could've been a better one if OP actually placed criterias.

At the end of the day is would still be opinion based, thus biased. We don't have to measure everything, because we simply can't. Who do YOU think had the best career is not a fact, number of criterias placed notwithstanding. I'm a bit against pretending being 'objective' when it's clear no opinion ever can be 'objectively' backed up.

Facts don't need backing up as they are backed up by themselves. Opinions cannot really be backed up by facts -- they are called opinions for a reason.

[elementally morale]

I just gave you a good one because this is an interesting tale

Nice of you. Now I'm at -30 since creating the thread, which is a slight improvement. :roll:

[LosBulls]

Gotta go with Bill Russell. Won championships at every level, got the best of his rival on several ocassions, kick-started the Lakers-Celtics rivalry, won 5 individual MVP awards and of course the 11 rings in 13 years.
This.

[Shepseskaf]

This is an interesting thread. One factor I haven't seen really discussed is how skilled of a basketball player each of the top all-time players were.

By skilled, I mean how much better a given player was when measured against the rest of the league in terms of how they mastered the most minuscule aspects of both offense and defense.

To me, Kareem and MJ are the two most skilled in the upper echelon of all-timers. Russell is certainly the games most accomplished winner, but he wasn't as skilled as either of the other two. Offensively, in all-time terms, he was pretty limited.

I've always said that it was MJ and Kareem as 1a and 1b as the greatest players, with the most noteworthy careers. This thread has reinforced that feeling for me.

[kshutts1]

Nah, I'm a bit old to have an agenda at a random site on the internet. :cheers:

SAd or funny as it sounds, I actually really do think Kobe does have a chance being thought of as the guy with the best basketball career there ever was. The rings are already there. Some additional ring(s) and/or MVPs would help, but records and some more years alone will be enough if he plays at this level for a few more years.

It just seemed to me that you used "not enough time played" as a negative for one player but a positive for another.

I agree that Kobe has a shot at having the greatest career ever, but I also believe Lebron has a shot. I guess I just didn't see the point of discounting time spent for one player but adding on time for another. Double standard.

[kshutts1]

This is an interesting thread. One factor I haven't seen really discussed is how skilled of a basketball player each of the top all-time players were.

By skilled, I mean how much better a given player was when measured against the rest of the league in terms of how they mastered the most minuscule aspects of both offense and defense.

To me, Kareem and MJ are the two most skilled in the upper echelon of all-timers. Russell is certainly the games most accomplished winner, but he wasn't as skilled as either of the other two. Offensively, in all-time terms, he was pretty limited.

I've always said that it was MJ and Kareem as 1a and 1b as the greatest players, with the most noteworthy careers. This thread has reinforced that feeling for me.

..and defensively...?

[jlip]

My junior year in college, I had what I thought was the one of the best college seasons ever. We won 28 out of 29 games. We won the National Championship. I was the MVP at the Final Four. I was first team All American. I averaged over 20 points and over 20 rebounds, and I was the only guy in college blocking shots. So after the season was over, they had a Northern California banquet, and they picked another center as Player of the Year in Northern California. Well, that let me know that if I were to accept these as the final judges of my career I would die a bitter old man. So I made a conscious decision: "What I'll do is I will try my very best to win every game. So when my career is finished it will be a historical fact I won these games, these championships, and there's no one's opinion how good I am or how good other guys are or comparing things." And so as I chronicle my career playing basketball, I played organized basketball for 21 years and I was on 18 championship teams. So that's what my standard is: playing a team game and my team winning.

--Bill Russell

[elementally morale]

I agree that Kobe has a shot at having the greatest career ever, but I also believe Lebron has a shot.

Absolutely. He should win 2-3 more rings and play another 15 years at a high level. At least another 6-7 years as a top 3 player, an additional 5 years as a top 5 player... he can do it if he is determined. It's mental. We shall see what he can bring to the table.

[Brunch@Five]

just gave you a neg with a name attached to it.
No one but Kareem, MJ and Russel has a case, LeBron will likely have one in a couple of years, as he will win a couple more MVPs (likely stack up to Kareem), win a couple of rings as the best player (maybe not 6, but he'll catch up at least to Duncan and Shaq).

Kobe won 1 MVP (and frankly did not deserve more, unlike Shaq) and only 2 Finals MVPs. No college or high school career. Is very unlikely to significantly add to his resum

[elementally morale]

just gave you a neg with a name attached to it.

:cheers:

[Brunch@Five]

:cheers:

you were asking for it :pimp:

[kNicKz]

Kareem

[elementally morale]

you were asking for it :pimp:

Negs are fine. I rarely neg people but I understand when they do.

[Burgz V2]

on all levels, considering the competition they faced, and what they accomplished I don't think there is a more decorated player than Kareem or Russell so to me it's a debate between them two. MJ is the greatest player of all time to me, and holds many records but in terms of having the most accomplished career I don't think he quite stacks up.

that being said, I think Kareem has a slight edge simply because of the time period(s) he played in (yes I know, I said it) when the centre position was much stronger than it was in Russells era. Not taking away from Russell but the game of basketball had been transformed by the time Kareem got to UCLA and was much different from when Russell was in college. Even so he won BACK to BACK to BACK chips and BACK to BACK to BACK NPOY awards. To me his college career is the kicker in this argument

[kNicKz]

Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play any sport. He would probably take the cake for the best career if he didn't retire twice.

[vert48]

Michael Jordan is the greatest player to ever play any sport. He would probably take the cake for the best career if he didn't retire twice.
What do you base that on? There are people that played in other sports that played longer, won more, were more dominant, etc.

[Flash31]

any of
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Jordan
in any order greatest of all time

6 titles,most dominant college career,most PTs,20 yr career,Famous Skyhook

Most titles,Most dominant team,amazing college career,2nd in rebound all time,11 Championships in 13 years,Mr Finals MVP

Quickest to 20,000 PTs all time 499 games,1st in Rebounds all time,50 pt season,25 rebound season,100 PTS in 1 game,most likely 1st in blocks all time,The Record Book

6 Championships,a decade of dominance,revitalized NBA made it worldwide,6 mvps,first guard to 30000 pts,A global brand Jordan,3 back to back championships twice


Any of these 4 and only these 4 currently so far
maybe magic,bird,shaq
if Kobe,Duncan can do more in upcoming years

too early for current stars (wade,lebron,Durant,cp3,rose)