John Wall's stats since March

[Sarcastic]

19.9 ppg, 7.6 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.0 spg, 0.9 bpg, 51.3 fg%, 50.0 3fg%, 86.5 ft%.



Not including tonight in which he had 17/5/11 on 8-11 fgs and 3 steals.



Still think he doesn't deserve a max deal?

[Droid101]

19.9 ppg, 7.6 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.0 spg, 0.9 bpg, 51.3 fg%, 50.0 3fg%, 86.5 ft%.



Not including tonight in which he had 17/5/11 on 8-11 fgs and 3 steals.



Still think he doesn't deserve a max deal?
So he gets a max deal for a five game stretch where he shot 6 three pointers and made 3 of them?

Sorry bub, that only works if you do it in the playoffs (see James, Jerome).

[no pun intended]

I wuv this guy.

[Sarcastic]

So he gets a max deal for a five game stretch where he shot 6 three pointers and made 3 of them?

Sorry bub, that only works if you do it in the playoffs (see James, Jerome).


No he gets a max deal because he is a franchise player that you build around. He's finally healthy and proving it.

[chips93]

if i was the wiz gm id give him the max, but i wouldnt feel great about it.

he still can shoot for shit, and its tough to build a good offense around such a bad shooter.

[Sarcastic]

if i was the wiz gm id give him the max, but i wouldnt feel great about it.

he still can shoot for shit, and its tough to build a good offense around such a bad shooter.


They drafted Beal to be the shooter. Wall is there to run the offense. His shooting will get better too. His form is good. It's not jacked up like MKG.

[chips93]

They drafted Beal to be the shooter. Wall is there to run the offense. His shooting will get better too. His form is good. It's not jacked up like MKG.

its been 3 years and he hasnt gotten any better, you cant really assume that he'll improve.

i know beal is a good shooter, and im not saying wall needs to be a great shooter, just not a terrible one, like he currently is.

when your primary ball-handler cant shoot at all, its really shrinks the floor. his shooting doesnt need to be a weapon, just something to keep the defense honest.

and maybe he does improve, i just wouldnt be very confident that it does.

[Clyde]

its been 3 years and he hasnt gotten any better, you cant really assume that he'll improve.

i know beal is a good shooter, and im not saying wall needs to be a great shooter, just not a terrible one, like he currently is.

when your primary ball-handler cant shoot at all, its really shrinks the floor. his shooting doesnt need to be a weapon, just something to keep the defense honest.

and maybe he does improve, i just wouldnt be very confident that it does.


There was a time when Jason Kidd was just a fast pg with little offensive game.

[Clifton]

when your primary ball-handler cant shoot at all, its really shrinks the floor. his shooting doesnt need to be a weapon, just something to keep the defense honest.
Well put.


There was a time when Jason Kidd was just a fast pg with little offensive game.
It's a myth that Kidd became some amazing shooter one day but the rest of his career he shot 20%... it's just he can't do anything else now. 35% shooter for his career, and each of the last 3 seasons.

John Wall is a career 24% 3pt shooter. You can leave him wide open every single time and not worry. That wasn't quite the case with Kidd. You couldn't leave him wide open; he just wasn't a threat to pull up from there, really make you pay if you didn't step to it quick. couldn't score outside of the paint. Prevented him from being a 6'4 Larry Bird.

[FindingTim]

I haven't watched the games, but statistically Wall has been on an absolute tear his last four games.

I think he is a great talent, with a rare combination of speed, athleticism, and court vision. I think in two years he will be a consensus top 3 point guard in the league along with Kyrie.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Apart from his rookie season he hasn't had a full season with a training camp. I want to see how he does next year.

[Baller1986]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1nr6utF7h1qg6qi8o1_500.gif

[daballa13]

max contract player ahahahahahahahahah :roll:

[daballa13]

They drafted Beal to be the shooter. Wall is there to run the offense. His shooting will get better too. His form is good. It's not jacked up like MKG.

WTF kind of statement is that, his form is good so his shooting will get better. Ray Allen of all people doesn't have so called good form. How long has this guy been playing basketball. His shooting has always been terrible. Its not gonna get much better.

The problem is that morons these days base everything on potential, 'Oh just think how good he'll be in 3-4 years'. STFU and look at the reality, the guy is not a superstar caliber player.

[bdreason]

He's a game changing player, and his stats don't even do him justice. Some of the things he does on the court only a handful of players can do in the league.

[dbk123]

He's a game changing player, and his stats don't even do him justice. Some of the things he does on the court only a handful of players can do in the league.
thats something i noticed too. His team usually loses but whenever he puts up good numbers it leads to actual wins. He doesnt put up empty stats

[Scoooter]

They drafted Beal to be the shooter. Wall is there to run the offense. His shooting will get better too. His form is good. It's not jacked up like MKG.
If his form is already good and he still can't shoot, then there isn't much to fix. A max deal sounds crazy for Wall, but these NBA teams sure do like to throw money around.

[Jyap9675]

Wall has nice court vision and extremely fast. He actually has a nice shooting form, hopefully he gets more confident with that stroke.

[Bosnian Sajo]

I bet he will get the max contract, teams throw around money like its nothing.

[andremiller07]

The Wizards are like 17-12/18-12 when both Wall and Nene play, the guy seriously takes a lot of crap from everywhere without that much reason, the guy simply helps his team win theres not doubting that.

[redhonda76]

19.9 ppg, 7.6 apg, 4.5 rpg, 2.0 spg, 0.9 bpg, 51.3 fg%, 50.0 3fg%, 86.5 ft%.



Not including tonight in which he had 17/5/11 on 8-11 fgs and 3 steals.



Still think he doesn't deserve a max deal?


24.4 ppg, 9.14 apg, 4 rpg, 1.57 spg, 51.2% FG
I guess Jeremy Lin deserves a max deal too during his 7 game win streak with the Knicks.

[Jailblazers7]

How else is Washington going to keep him unless it a max or near max deal? He still has like a year or two on his rookie deal to improve his consistency and after that he will almost certainly get a max deal.

[j3lademaster]

How else is Washington going to keep him unless it a max or near max deal? He still has like a year or two on his rookie deal to improve his consistency and after that he will almost certainly get a max deal.Agreed. Too much stock is put into Wall's one downside: his jumpshot. How about the things he does do well? As good as it gets at the pg position when it comes to shotblocking and rebounding, elite athleticism, good vision, good handles, and his defense is underrated. Like severely underrated, man and help. Would like to see him more under control, though he has improved in that department this year. I know, I know... lol @ .071 from 3

[steve]

i know beal is a good shooter, and im not saying wall needs to be a great shooter, just not a terrible one, like he currently is.

when your primary ball-handler cant shoot at all, its really shrinks the floor. his shooting doesnt need to be a weapon, just something to keep the defense honest.

and maybe he does improve, i just wouldnt be very confident that it does.

Here's why Wall being an average shooter is kind of irrelevant if you surround him with two players like Beal and Webster (and for the record, he's been shooting well this past month from 15+ feet, which also just happens to coincide with him finally getting back into basketball form after his injury): when Wall's on the court with Beal and Webster, they outscore their opponents by 15 points per 100 possessions and the main reason is because the trio kills teams from 3 point line.

Wall finds three point shooters (especially for corner threes) than just about anyone in the league. Even if defenders sag off him, Wall is able to cover enough ground quickly that it really doesn't make that much of a difference. He still has the ability to draw defenders towards him and get the ball to shooters. And when those shooters are Beal and Webster, things get interesting. When those three are on the floor together, they make 2.6 more three pointers than their opponents per 100 possessions while taking 6.1 fewer three pointers (and their percentage is about 25% higher than their opponents). This is significantly better than when Beal and Webster have played with any of the other three Wizards ball handlers this season (namely, Price, Temple, and Crawford). Despite his lack of a good jumper, if you surround him with players who can knock down shots, he'll find them and they'll be a beneficial jump in the teams production (and it's much better when he's finding disciplined players like Beal and Webster as opposed to Crawford and Young).

But to get to the larger point about why this month and next are important for Wall is fairly simple. For the first month and a half, he was getting back into basketball shape and finally looks to be approaching something like 100%. What were seeing now is more indicative of the progress Wall has been making in his off time than earlier when he was trying to get his legs, wind, and conditioning back up to his normal standards. I suppose, it's understandable for people to dismiss how he's playing for a variety of reasons (end of the season, playing against scrubs, good teams not taking them seriously, and so on), but if he continues to play this well, it's going to be hard to deny that he isn't starting to reach his potential and making large and tangible strides towards it.

[ralph_i_el]

Here's why Wall being an average shooter is kind of irrelevant if you surround him with two players like Beal and Webster (and for the record, he's been shooting well this past month from 15+ feet, which also just happens to coincide with him finally getting back into basketball form after his injury): when Wall's on the court with Beal and Webster, they outscore their opponents by 15 points per 100 possessions and the main reason is because the trio kills teams from 3 point line.

Wall finds three point shooters (especially for corner threes) than just about anyone in the league. Even if defenders sag off him, Wall is able to cover enough ground quickly that it really doesn't make that much of a difference. He still has the ability to draw defenders towards him and get the ball to shooters. And when those shooters are Beal and Webster, things get interesting. When those three are on the floor together, they make 2.6 more three pointers than their opponents per 100 possessions while taking 6.1 fewer three pointers (and their percentage is about 25% higher than their opponents). This is significantly better than when Beal and Webster have played with any of the other three Wizards ball handlers this season (namely, Price, Temple, and Crawford). Despite his lack of a good jumper, if you surround him with players who can knock down shots, he'll find them and they'll be a beneficial jump in the teams production (and it's much better when he's finding disciplined players like Beal and Webster as opposed to Crawford and Young).

But to get to the larger point about why this month and next are important for Wall is fairly simple. For the first month and a half, he was getting back into basketball shape and finally looks to be approaching something like 100%. What were seeing now is more indicative of the progress Wall has been making in his off time than earlier when he was trying to get his legs, wind, and conditioning back up to his normal standards. I suppose, it's understandable for people to dismiss how he's playing for a variety of reasons (end of the season, playing against scrubs, good teams not taking them seriously, and so on), but if he continues to play this well, it's going to be hard to deny that he isn't starting to reach his potential and making large and tangible strides towards it.

and corner 3's are the most efficient shot in the game. He puts a defender on skates, draws the help, and then whips if out for 3. It's so beautiful :cry:

[steve]

and corner 3's are the most efficient shot in the game. He puts a defender on skates, draws the help, and then whips if out for 3. It's so beautiful :cry:

You know, I watch most Wizards games and this is something that had to be pointed out to me (by someone on True Hoop, I think). Watching how Beal and Webster both instinctively float to the corners whenever Wall drives or is on a fast break is something (they don't do this quite the same when Price and Temple are pushing the ball). This is night and day compared to when Wall would play with Crawford and Young, neither of whom have a clue how to pick their spots or move to smart points on the floor when they don't have the ball.

[Go Getter]

Wall is so overrated it is sickening.

He isnt really a vertical athlete although he has blinding speed he can't jump like Shannon Brown or Derrick Rose.

He commits a lot of turnovers

His body language and attitude is questionable in my book....too much fruity boy dancing (just my opinion)

And despite the Wiz putting some good pieces around him ppl still blame his teammates for their sub par showing and not him....actually they are doing well considering so I retract that point.

Nene, Okafor, Beal, Webster, and Booker is a decent supporting cast in the East for a "superstar pg" though.

[Sarcastic]

24.4 ppg, 9.14 apg, 4 rpg, 1.57 spg, 51.2% FG
I guess Jeremy Lin deserves a max deal too during his 7 game win streak with the Knicks.


Jeremy Lin actually did get the MAXIMUM amount that a team was allowed to pay according to the CBA.


Also John Wall is a #1 pick with a lot more potential. Jeremy Lin went undrafted. I don't think it's fair to compare them in that way. Teams pay #1 overall picks a lot more than they do undrafted free agents.

[redhonda76]

Jeremy Lin actually did get the MAXIMUM amount that a team was allowed to pay according to the CBA.


Also John Wall is a #1 pick with a lot more potential. Jeremy Lin went undrafted. I don't think it's fair to compare them in that way. Teams pay #1 overall picks a lot more than they do undrafted free agents.

That's exactly my point. They both had a great games stats-wise during that short stretch but both of them do not worth the max. Wall is all based on potential. The risk is so much greater when the player is so unproven.

[steve]

And despite the Wiz putting some good pieces around him ppl still blame his teammates for their sub par showing and not him....actually they are doing well considering so I retract that point.

Nene, Okafor, Beal, Webster, and Booker is a decent supporting cast in the East for a "superstar pg" though.

The line-up of Nene, Okafor, Webster, Beal, and Wall is one of the most productive line-ups in the NBA season as they outscore their opponents by nearly 28 points per 100 possessions (Booker really hasn't been healthy this season). When Wall's on the floor the Wizards at nearly 7 points better on offense and nearly 4 points better on defense. The only player on the roster with better on/off numbers than that is Nene. This on top of the fact that the Wizards are 17-14 since Wall's return and he's finally playing excellent ball since getting his conditioning back up to snuff.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Imagine Wall in OKC tho :eek:

[tontoz]

Over the last 5 Wall is averaging 22/10 shooting 60%.

He was really struggling in Feb so this is a welcome sight. I think the max extension talk is a bit premature though.

[rknine15]

John Wall is finally healthy and in a nice rhythm..... with that said if he keeps this up he not only deserves max but should be considered a top pg

With John Wall this team has been + .500

[chips93]

Wall is so overrated it is sickening.

He isnt really a vertical athlete although he has blinding speed he can't jump like Shannon Brown or Derrick Rose.

He commits a lot of turnovers

His body language and attitude is questionable in my book....too much fruity boy dancing (just my opinion)

And despite the Wiz putting some good pieces around him ppl still blame his teammates for their sub par showing and not him....actually they are doing well considering so I retract that point.

Nene, Okafor, Beal, Webster, and Booker is a decent supporting cast in the East for a "superstar pg" though.


huh, GoGetter shitting on a young up and coming point guard.

didnt see that coming :rolleyes:

[Go Getter]

huh, GoGetter shitting on a young up and coming point guard.

didnt see that coming :rolleyes:
I saw the butt hurt Stan boys that would get offended by my personal preference a mile away though.


BTW, I'm pretty high on Lillard and Irving.

[Go Getter]

The line-up of Nene, Okafor, Webster, Beal, and Wall is one of the most productive line-ups in the NBA season as they outscore their opponents by nearly 28 points per 100 possessions (Booker really hasn't been healthy this season). When Wall's on the floor the Wizards at nearly 7 points better on offense and nearly 4 points better on defense. The only player on the roster with better on/off numbers than that is Nene. This on top of the fact that the Wizards are 17-14 since Wall's return and he's finally playing excellent ball since getting his conditioning back up to snuff.
Okay, but if you can't get your team into the playoffs in the East are you really doing something?

I see stats and potential but I don't see the "it" factor. The aspect of willing your team to victories that every great player has.

In other words, I wouldn't give Wall a max deal.

*for the stans: I could be wrong, Wall is definitely a player that could become great, but personally I don't think he will be as good as ppl have been saying since he was in HS.

[chips93]

I saw the butt hurt Stan boys that would get offended by my personal preference a mile away though.


BTW, I'm pretty high on Lillard and Irving.

you personal preference against any pg not named derrick rose

[Go Getter]

you personal preference against any pg not named derrick rose
Again, I think Lillard and Irving are great young guards who I would pick over Wall. YOU mentioned Rose in a thread I did not even plan on discussing him in.

I think the crux of the situation is that yoy don't like my criticism of your boyfriend Wall.

If you feel that my assertions are inaccurate or biased then feel free to refrain from replying to my posts or ignore me.


Good day to you sir.

[plUto or bUst]

I really like John Wall's game. He is much more impactful then someone like Irving, who puts up empty stats on a bad team.

I list Wall along with Mike Conley, George Hill, Jeremy Lin, and Ricky Rubio as really great two way point guards (plays defense and offense), that for various reasons get underrated far too often.

[Go Getter]

I really like John Wall's game. He is much more impactful then someone like Irving, who puts up empty stats on a bad team.

I list Wall along with Mike Conley, George Hill, Jeremy Lin, and Ricky Rubio as really great two way point guards (plays defense and offense), that for various reasons get underrated far too often.
Irving puts up empty stats on a bad team? That's how you differentiate him from Wall?

Idk about that one broham.

Irving, to me, has shown a far more advanced grasp of the game than Wall has.

[plUto or bUst]

Irving puts up empty stats on a bad team? That's how you differentiate him from Wall?

Idk about that one broham.

Irving, to me, has shown a far more advanced grasp of the game than Wall has.

Wizards have been playing around .500 ball with Wall playing. They are better than their record shows.

I disagree that Irving has a far more advanced grasp of the game. Wall is a much better passer / floor general. He also has a much better grasp of defense than Irving. Irving is the better scorer... that's about it.

[Go Getter]

Wizards have been playing around .500 ball with Wall playing. They are better than their record shows.

I disagree that Irving has a far more advanced grasp of the game. Wall is a much better passer / floor general. He also has a much better grasp of defense than Irving. Irving is the better scorer... that's about it.
It's pretty evident when you watch them. Irving is more calculating and methodical while Wall is most effective at break neck speeds. He often is ineffective in halfcourt settings.

We aren't talking about defense or scoring, just feel for the game, which Irving demonstrates and Wall struggles with....

When Wall gets the Wiz into the playoffs I will give him props and upgrade my assessment of him. Irving needs to make the playoffs as well before I take him seriously as one of the best at his position.

[steve]

It's pretty evident when you watch them. Irving is more calculating and methodical while Wall is most effective at break neck speeds. He often is ineffective in halfcourt settings.

We aren't talking about defense or scoring, just feel for the game, which Irving demonstrates and Wall struggles with....

When Wall gets the Wiz into the playoffs I will give him props and upgrade my assessment of him. Irving needs to make the playoffs as well before I take him seriously as one of the best at his position.

Wouldn't a "better feel for the game" equate to playing better defense or being a better passer? Really, also this is is a vague explanation for why you feel Irving is better when you don't really have anything to back it up with. It's fine if you value Irving's scoring and shooting more than you do Wall's attributes, but at least be up front about it.

And it really isn't Wall's fault the team went 5-28 before he was even able to make it on the court. Right now the Wizards are 18-14 with Wall in the line-up, extrapolate that over the 65 games the Wizards have played so far this season, and that would put them 5th in the Eastern Conference.

[ralph_i_el]

Okay, but if you can't get your team into the playoffs in the East are you really doing something?

I see stats and potential but I don't see the "it" factor. The aspect of willing your team to victories that every great player has.

In other words, I wouldn't give Wall a max deal.

*for the stans: I could be wrong, Wall is definitely a player that could become great, but personally I don't think he will be as good as ppl have been saying since he was in HS.


you stick rose on a team that started 5-28 without him and they aren't making the playoffs. nobody is coming back from that deficit

Wall vs Irving is such a headache to discuss because they're pretty much good for opposite reasons. Both have great handles but even in that category they use their dribble so differently

Irving
-shooting
-scoring
-poise

Wall
-Athleticism
-court vision
-defense

They play the same position but it's apples and oranges :confusedshrug:



Imagine Wall in OKC tho :eek:

**** that imagine Durant coming home to DC to play with Wall and Beal

[The Choken One]

Wall will get the max.

[alexthegr8]

Wall is so overrated it is sickening.

He isnt really a vertical athlete although he has blinding speed he can't jump like Shannon Brown or Derrick Rose.
.

:wtf:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zylXqcZzdw

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sISwB64oXlY

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzzyfIw5zQ

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrbf3AGKrA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UpQl18OOM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YhH9ddtJjIc

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jbYLSJ9SsM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw

[Go Getter]

:wtf:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zylXqcZzdw

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sISwB64oXlY

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzzyfIw5zQ

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrbf3AGKrA

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UpQl18OOM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YhH9ddtJjIc

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jbYLSJ9SsM

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw

He is 6'3"-6'4" with crazy long arms and he is a beast no doubt but his dunks don't stack up to RW, Rose, and the rest of the elite pg dunkers in the past.

Elite speed but not elite bounce.

[Go Getter]

Wouldn't a "better feel for the game" equate to playing better defense or being a better passer? Really, also this is is a vague explanation for why you feel Irving is better when you don't really have anything to back it up with. It's fine if you value Irving's scoring and shooting more than you do Wall's attributes, but at least be up front about it.

And it really isn't Wall's fault the team went 5-28 before he was even able to make it on the court. Right now the Wizards are 18-14 with Wall in the line-up, extrapolate that over the 65 games the Wizards have played so far this season, and that would put them 5th in the Eastern Conference.
Since you asked for clarity I will give you some.


If put on a team with better scorers I feel Irving could be just as good at facilitating as Wall....but he has way less scoring on his team and he is BLOSSOMING as a leader and a go-to-guy. Wall dreams of the day his game gets there.

I don't blame Wall for record or anything I'm saying he has to get the Wiz to the playoffs, especially if they give him the max. If and when he does I'll definitely give him props.

[Go Getter]

you stick rose on a team that started 5-28 without him and they aren't making the playoffs. nobody is coming back from that deficit

Wall vs Irving is such a headache to discuss because they're pretty much good for opposite reasons. Both have great handles but even in that category they use their dribble so differently

Irving
-shooting
-scoring
-poise

Wall
-Athleticism
-court vision
-defense

They play the same position but it's apples and oranges :confusedshrug:




**** that imagine Durant coming home to DC to play with Wall and Beal

I think Irving could adjust to a scoring team and flourish as a set up guy.

I do not think Wall could step up as a max deal player and hold down the fort and score 25-28 points for his team when the 2nd or 3rd option is hurt or his teal is struggling to score.

[Clifton]

Wall's not an elite athlete. This era has astounding athletes like D. Rose, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, young Wade, and heck, even Kevin Durant (nearly 7' tall and moves like he's 6'2). The way those guys move, and jump, is on another level entirely. The strength and agility, the fluidity..

Wall's stop-and-go isn't great, he's not especially strong, his dunks are rarely clean the way Rose's are. The only difference in athleticism between him and say Darren Collison is his height.

It's for this reason that he really can't be an elite player in the NBA with raw talent, or even raw talent + a modest amount of acquired skill (like Derrick Rose has). He pretty much needs to work on his game and improve every year, or he'll never be able to lead a team deep in the playoffs or be effective past his late-20s.

Now, his court sense and IQ *are* very good. But the idea that he beats you with physical talent is a myth I think.

[FreezingTsmoove]

:wtf:
Wall's not an elite athlete. This era has astounding athletes like D. Rose, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, young Wade, and heck, even Kevin Durant (nearly 7' tall and moves like he's 6'2). The way those guys move, and jump, is on another level entirely. The strength and agility, the fluidity..

Wall's stop-and-go isn't great, he's not especially strong, his dunks are rarely clean the way Rose's are. The only difference in athleticism between him and say Darren Collison is his height.

It's for this reason that he really can't be an elite player in the NBA with raw talent, or even raw talent + a modest amount of acquired skill (like Derrick Rose has). He pretty much needs to work on his game and improve every year, or he'll never be able to lead a team deep in the playoffs or be effective past his late-20s.



Now, his court sense and IQ *are* very good. But the idea that he beats you with physical talent is a myth I think.

His speed is elite and he's an above average jumper

[The Macho Man]

He's often outplayed by AJ Price

[upside24]

His numbers are not great but he improves their offense and has an undeniable impact so maybe his impact can't be judged my stats.

He is very talented but until he has a reliable jumper he is not All Star quality player.

[rknine15]

Wall's not an elite athlete. This era has astounding athletes like D. Rose, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, young Wade, and heck, even Kevin Durant (nearly 7' tall and moves like he's 6'2). The way those guys move, and jump, is on another level entirely. The strength and agility, the fluidity..

Wall's stop-and-go isn't great, he's not especially strong, his dunks are rarely clean the way Rose's are. The only difference in athleticism between him and say Darren Collison is his height.

It's for this reason that he really can't be an elite player in the NBA with raw talent, or even raw talent + a modest amount of acquired skill (like Derrick Rose has). He pretty much needs to work on his game and improve every year, or he'll never be able to lead a team deep in the playoffs or be effective past his late-20s.

Now, his court sense and IQ *are* very good. But the idea that he beats you with physical talent is a myth I think.
Wall's arguably the faster player in the league and has a 39" vert.... he's also very long and tall for a PG..... his speed alone is elite..... how is he not an elite athlete???

[rknine15]

He is 6'3"-6'4" with crazy long arms and he is a beast no doubt but his dunks don't stack up to RW, Rose, and the rest of the elite pg dunkers in the past.

Elite speed but not elite bounce.
omg how is he not up there with a healthy rose and westbrook are you kidding me???

the man measured with a 39" vert at the combine....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjV-tWrZJRQ look at 1:00

[ZenMaster]

Wall's not an elite athlete.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8355274#post8355274

[Sarcastic]

John Wall is not an elite athlete?


http://tinyurl.com/cy7pl5x

[tontoz]

Wall has averaged nearly a block a game for the last two seasons. How could a pg do that if he wasn't an elite athlete?

[steve]

If put on a team with better scorers I feel Irving could be just as good at facilitating as Wall....but he has way less scoring on his team and he is BLOSSOMING as a leader and a go-to-guy. Wall dreams of the day his game gets there.

Kyrie Irving has six 10+ assist games in his entire career so far (that's 100 total games). John Wall matched that in the 14th game of his career. They are not on the same level when it comes to facilitating.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kyrie Irving has six 10+ assist games in his entire career so far (that's 100 total games). John Wall matched that in the 14th game of his career. They are not on the same level when it comes to facilitating.

Kyrie scores more - he doesn't look for assists. It's natural - hes an elite scorer

[steve]

Kyrie scores more - he doesn't look for assists. It's natural - hes an elite scorer

And I would never suggest that Wall is close to Irving as a scorer, it cuts both ways. Irving just hasn't shown that he's close to being an elite passer.

[Jyap9675]

Im telling y'all once Wall gets an efficient jumpshot, this kid will be unstoppable.

[TheNaturalWR]

Wall is the fastest player with the ball in his hands in the league BY FAR. Not an elite athlete? You can't be serious.

[Go Getter]

omg how is he not up there with a healthy rose and westbrook are you kidding me???

the man measured with a 39" vert at the combine....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjV-tWrZJRQ look at 1:00
He's got great explosiveness but not in the same class as RW, Rose, Francis, etc.

It's clear to me when I watch them. Wall has SG height so technically if he was the best athlete he'd be the best above the rim pg but he isn't.

[Clifton]

Wall's arguably the faster player in the league and has a 39" vert.... he's also very long and tall for a PG..... his speed alone is elite..... how is he not an elite athlete???
Everyone has a 40 inch vert. Not all 40 inch verts are equal. And being fast won't help you in conference Finals and Finals play; I'd take James Harden's deceptive quickness over Wall's end to end "speed" any day.

Athleticism is a total body thing. It has to do with changing directions on a dime, in mid-air, with grace, fluidity, and ease. MJ's "speed" and "vertical" didn't help him become the GOAT; Larry Bird and Magic were able to be GOATs or near it without those things. What MJ had was body control, quickness, and strength - and I'm not saying he had muscles that popped out of his body like Dwight Howard I'm saying he was *strong*, like his wrists, and hands, and hips, and back, and legs were stronger than yours; you could knock him around in midair all kinds of ways and it wouldn't faze him. That's athleticism on the level of Rose, Lebron, Carter; compared to them, Wall is only fast. This isn't a track meet it's a basketball game and in serious NBA play, you spend very little time running 40 yd dashes up and down the court, esp. in this era.

Again, because of that speed, and otherwise athleticism that is very above average (not elite), especially for his size, combined with his instincts as a point guard (which are also above average but not elite), he can become a top ten or fifteen player one day. But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.

The only reason I'm harping on this is because I was a Wizards fan who was being told that I was getting the most athletic and otherwise talented PG prospect to come along since Magic. He was the most highly touted prospect I'd heard of since Lebron James. And he comes here and he's just a taller Rondo; not the athletic wonder I'd been promised. But a taller Rondo is a damn good asset if it develops well.

[alexthegr8]

But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.


You're underselling Wall's athleticism. I get you in a sense, especially comparing Wall to other pgs in terms of start and stop quickness and agility. He's not Rose in that dept, probably a function of him being a little leggy ( 6'4 and he's got really long arms and legs, and that makes throttling down and cutting on a dime a little more difficult; think Randy Moss getting in and out of breaks on out routes as opposed to a Torry Holt), but I can't stamp anything else you wrote. His speed is obviously elite, his verticality is too, as evidenced by his myriad highlight reel dunks, insanely high bpg number for a pg in his career (highest of any pg in the league since he's been in the league), and his very strong per 36 rebounding numbers since he's entered the league. I'm not sure how else you would evaluate the vertical aspect of someone's game, but every objective metric would point to him being elite in that category, including his combine numbers.

In terms of going one on five and scoring every time, Wall's actually the best in the league at doing that in the open court for pgs (he scored the most fast break points of any pg in the league last year, and his finish rate around the rim was slightly better than Rose and Westbrook's in general last season.)

[entropy35]

Wall is an elite athlete anyone who says otherwise is trolling.

As far as wall and irving go, i think they are pretty equal. If you have great scorers at the other positions you take Wall. If not take Irving.

[Sarcastic]

Wall is so overrated it is sickening.

He isnt really a vertical athlete although he has blinding speed he can't jump like Shannon Brown or Derrick Rose.

He commits a lot of turnovers

His body language and attitude is questionable in my book....too much fruity boy dancing (just my opinion)

And despite the Wiz putting some good pieces around him ppl still blame his teammates for their sub par showing and not him....actually they are doing well considering so I retract that point.

Nene, Okafor, Beal, Webster, and Booker is a decent supporting cast in the East for a "superstar pg" though.



Again, I think Lillard and Irving are great young guards who I would pick over Wall. YOU mentioned Rose in a thread I did not even plan on discussing him in.

I think the crux of the situation is that yoy don't like my criticism of your boyfriend Wall.

If you feel that my assertions are inaccurate or biased then feel free to refrain from replying to my posts or ignore me.


Good day to you sir.

You already discussed him. :confusedshrug:

[B4llin]

John Walls 3pt% last year....OMG











.071

[ralph_i_el]

Everyone has a 40 inch vert. Not all 40 inch verts are equal. And being fast won't help you in conference Finals and Finals play; I'd take James Harden's deceptive quickness over Wall's end to end "speed" any day.

Athleticism is a total body thing. It has to do with changing directions on a dime, in mid-air, with grace, fluidity, and ease. MJ's "speed" and "vertical" didn't help him become the GOAT; Larry Bird and Magic were able to be GOATs or near it without those things. What MJ had was body control, quickness, and strength - and I'm not saying he had muscles that popped out of his body like Dwight Howard I'm saying he was *strong*, like his wrists, and hands, and hips, and back, and legs were stronger than yours; you could knock him around in midair all kinds of ways and it wouldn't faze him. That's athleticism on the level of Rose, Lebron, Carter; compared to them, Wall is only fast. This isn't a track meet it's a basketball game and in serious NBA play, you spend very little time running 40 yd dashes up and down the court, esp. in this era.

Again, because of that speed, and otherwise athleticism that is very above average (not elite), especially for his size, combined with his instincts as a point guard (which are also above average but not elite), he can become a top ten or fifteen player one day. But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.

The only reason I'm harping on this is because I was a Wizards fan who was being told that I was getting the most athletic and otherwise talented PG prospect to come along since Magic. He was the most highly touted prospect I'd heard of since Lebron James. And he comes here and he's just a taller Rondo; not the athletic wonder I'd been promised. But a taller Rondo is a damn good asset if it develops well.

I just don't understand how you see his athleticism like that. His chasedown blocks are beautiful. His first step is nasty. He's not better than the guys you mentioned but he's at least comparable.

[Go Getter]

You already discussed him. :confusedshrug:


I mentioned him as an example, it doesn't exactly equate to discussing him, but at any rate you're really splitting hairs to prove a petty point.

[Go Getter]

Again, because of that speed, and otherwise athleticism that is very above average (not elite), especially for his size, combined with his instincts as a point guard (which are also above average but not elite), he can become a top ten or fifteen player one day. But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.

The only reason I'm harping on this is because I was a Wizards fan who was being told that I was getting the most athletic and otherwise talented PG prospect to come along since Magic. He was the most highly touted prospect I'd heard of since Lebron James. And he comes here and he's just a taller Rondo; not the athletic wonder I'd been promised. But a taller Rondo is a damn good asset if it develops well.
:applause:

I agree.

[tontoz]

Everyone has a 40 inch vert.


No they don't.

Westbrooks vertical was measured at 36.5" at the combine.

[Go Getter]

No they don't.

Westbrooks vertical was measured at 36.5" at the combine.
Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.

Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.

[CeltsGarlic]

Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.

Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.
Not only this, but If you followed him from the start of his NBA career his jump improved a ton. Them roids.

[Go Getter]

Not only this, but If you followed him from the start of his NBA career his jump improved a ton. Them roids.


I don't know about Roids but I wouldn't doubt that many NBA players take the HGH cream for faster recovery times.

[tontoz]

Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.

Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.


Or it could be that your perception differs from reality. I think that is the more likely scenario.

If Westbrook can get up as high as Wall why is Wall getting over twice as many blocks?

[tontoz]

John Wall and LaMarcus Aldridge have been named the NBA's Players of the Week.

Wall averaged 24.0 points, 11.0 assists, 5.0 rebounds and 2.5 steals per game while shooting .617 from the field, .800 from three-point range and .857 from the free-throw line in leading the Wizards to a 3-1 record during the week. Wall became the first NBA player since the three-point era began (1979-80) to average at least 24 points, 11 assists, five rebounds, two steals, shoot at least .600 from the field, .800 from three-point range and .850 from the free-throw line in a four game span.



:applause:

[Go Getter]

Or it could be that your perception differs from reality. I think that is the more likely scenario.

If Westbrook can get up as high as Wall why is Wall getting over twice as many blocks?


For real? John Wall is a more explosive leaper than RW?
:coleman:
Idk what to say so I'll just respect your right to have an opinion but when I look at games; (and I've played against NBA, NFL, and Div. I Big 10 players) when administering the "eye test" RW explodes with more ferocity than any other guard in the league.

As for your second question, Wall is taller with longer arms and better anticipation. That has nothing to do with the original talking point though.

[Go Getter]

:applause:
80% from three....wow:eek: .....wait....is that marked improvement or a statistical anomaly?

[tontoz]

80% from three....wow:eek: .....wait....is that marked improvement or a statistical anomaly?



Small sample size. He only attempted 5 treys in those 4 games, making 4.

I think he had made only 3 or 4 3s on the season coming into those 4 games.

[Go Getter]

Small sample size. He only attempted 5 treys in those 4 games, making 4.

I think he had made only 3 or 4 3s on the season coming into those 4 games.
I was being sarcastic. I know....it kills me how these stat guys come up with the most arbitrary numbers to justify slurping a player.

I mean with Wall I guess it's okay but no one needs to hype Lebron up with stats that mean nothing everyone who knows ball knows he will be an all-time great when he retires.

[Chrono90]

Wall has shown flashes of a franchise player but, as of now, he is absolutely not a franchise player.

[rknine15]

Everyone has a 40 inch vert. Not all 40 inch verts are equal. And being fast won't help you in conference Finals and Finals play; I'd take James Harden's deceptive quickness over Wall's end to end "speed" any day.


:roll: :roll:

didn't bother reading the rest.....

[rknine15]

Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.

Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.


Not only this, but If you followed him from the start of his NBA career his jump improved a ton. Them roids.

it's called going to the gym getting stronger.... doing deadlifts, squats, plyometrics...etc