Option 1:Wade + Bosh Option 2: Shaq

[Mr. Jabbar]

Which one would you rather pick to surround your superstar in order to win championships. Shortcut #1 or Option #2?

[pauk]

I would take the most dominant force to ever play this game (that i have seen at least)...

I would take the guy that has 2 more rings, 2 more fmvps and 1 more mvp...

...and I would take the guy that alone produced overall better numbers than what Bosh/Wade combined produce today...

[qrich]

Wade and Bosh have a combined 3 rings (2 in one year) with one Finals MVP.

Shaq has 4 rings with three FMVPs. Should have been 5ive rings but we know what happened with one of them.

This is a pretty easy decision really.

Unless you are talking right now, than Wade and Bosh over a 41 year old Shaq. Hell, I'd take current Chris Kaman over a 41 year old Shaq.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I would take the most dominant force to ever play this game (that i have seen at least)...

I would take the guy that has 2 more rings, 2 more fmvps and 1 more mvp...

...and I would take the guy that alone produced overall better numbers than what Bosh/Wade combined produce today...

:biggums:

You are not very good at math.

[pauk]

...and I would take the guy that alone impacted his team overall better than what Bosh/Wade combined impact their team today...

Shaq i would take over 99.99% of players in NBA history.... maybe even 100%....

[Mr. Jabbar]

No need to sweat it pauk, you can take shortcut #1, no one will judge you here...

[plowking]

Wade is my favorite player, but I'd take Shaq over anyone. Dude would make any team a contender right now.

[pauk]

:biggums:

You are not very good at math.

...that or i did a typo, Shaq has 1 more ring than Wade/Bosh combined, 2 more than Wade, 3 more than Bosh... yay... whatever the case is he got more... now please dont try to derail the thread and get back to the topic, try make a valid basketball response....

[qrich]

Wade is my favorite player, but I'd take Shaq over anyone. Dude would make any team a contender right now.

Would the current Bobcats be a contender?

Kemba - Henderson - MKG - Mullens - Shaq?

[pauk]

No need to sweat it pauk, you can take shortcut #1, no one will judge you here...

Nah, i want more team success... you can go with "shortcut" #1...

The difference between these "shortcuts" is that one guy was the best player in the world / best player in his team / mvp / fmvp of that team, a guy who actually CARRIED that team to a championship......... and one guy was a sidekick, who got handed 3 rings on a silverplate.... so i would assume "shortcut" #2 would have been much more easier road...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Pretty funny that Bosh's TS% in the playoffs last year is greater than Shaq's peak TS% during any title run. Too bad Shaq never mastered FTs.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

...that or i did a typo, Shaq has 1 more ring than Wade/Bosh combined, 2 more than Wade, 3 more than Bosh... yay... whatever the case is he got more... now please dont try to derail the thread and get back to the topic, try make a valid basketball response....

Your math is off everywhere. Your entire comment was simply wrong. Bosh and Wade are good for 40 pts a game. Shaq never averaged more than 30 in the regular season. What kind of conversation do you expect to have if you simply make up facts?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nah, i want more team success... you can go with "shortcut" #1...

The difference between these "shortcuts" is that one guy was the best player in the world / best player in his team / mvp / fmvp of that team, a guy who actually CARRIED that team to a championship......... and one guy was a sidekick, who got handed 3 rings on a silverplate.... so i would assume "shortcut" #2 would have been much more easier road...

29.4 PPG/ 7.3 REB/ 6.1 ASS 56 TS%

101.8 DEF RAT 50-32
99.6 DEF RAT 55-27
98.9 DEF RAT 56-26
98.0 DEF RAT 58-24

15-1 RECORD

vs

30.3 PPG/9.7 REB/5.6 58 TS%

:confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Nah, i want more team success... you can go with "shortcut" #1...

The difference between these "shortcuts" is that one guy was the best player in the world / best player in his team / mvp / fmvp of that team, a guy who actually CARRIED that team to a championship......... and one guy was a sidekick, who got handed 3 rings on a silverplate.... so i would assume "shortcut" #2 would have been much more easier road...

So you think its harder to hack a shaq than to eliminate the combined threat Wade AND bosh pose?

[pauk]

Your math is off everywhere. Your entire comment was simply wrong. Bosh and Wade are good for 40 pts a game. Shaq never averaged more than 30 in the regular season. What kind of conversation do you expect to have if you simply make up facts?

Bosh & Wade in their 1 playoff championship run together averaged:

36 ppg
13 rpg

Shaq in one of his playoff championship runs averaged alone:

31 ppg
15 rpg
Shot way more efficiently...

Obviously, stats is not the entire story... Shaq was simply more impactful/dominant on both ends than Wade/Bosh are today combined, did you ever see prime Shaq play? Thats the "facts i make up"...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Bosh & Wade in their 1 playoff championship run together averaged:

36 ppg
13 rpg

Shaq in one of his playoff championship runs averaged alone:

31 ppg
15 rpg
Shot way more efficiently & was simply more impactful/dominant on both ends....

Thats what i mean...

It wasn't way more efficiently. You are just ignoring FTs. :confusedshrug:

Shaq's playoff 2010 TS% .556

Bosh's playoff 2012 TS% .574, Wade's .526.. avg= .550

[Myth]

How is this a question? You take Shaq. Can you imagine prime Shaq and prime LeBron together? :eek:


G: Chalmers
G: Allen
F: Battier
F: LeBron
C: Shaq

:bowdown:

[shady6121]

Bosh & Wade in their 1 playoff championship run together averaged:

36 ppg
13 rpg

Shaq in one of his playoff championship runs averaged alone:

31 ppg
15 rpg
Shot way more efficiently...

Obviously, stats is not the entire story... Shaq was simply more impactful/dominant on both ends than Wade/Bosh are today combined, did you ever see prime Shaq play? Thats the "facts i make up"...

http://i.imgur.com/NjrwffZ.jpg

Looks like pauk is warming up to write his next 1,500 word essay.

[qrich]

How is this a question? You take Shaq. Can you imagine prime Shaq and prime LeBron together? :eek:


G: Chalmers
G: Allen
F: Battier
F: LeBron
C: Shaq

:bowdown:

No kidding.

Versus

G: Fisher
G: Wade
F: Bryant
F: Bosh
C: Horry

or

G: Wade
G: Bryant
F: Fox
F: Bosh
C: Horry

[RoundMoundOfReb]

How is this a question? You take Shaq. Can you imagine prime Shaq and prime LeBron together? :eek:


G: Chalmers
G: Allen
F: Battier
F: LeBron
C: Shaq

:bowdown:
this.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How is this a question? You take Shaq. Can you imagine prime Shaq and prime LeBron together? :eek:


G: Chalmers
G: Allen
F: Battier
F: LeBron
C: Shaq

:bowdown:

Are we supposed to assume that by choosing Shaq you also get the best backup SG in the league too?

[pauk]

Lebron at 28 has soon 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 Championships
Kobe at 28 had 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs, 3 Championships

Kobe is a top 10 great and what he is doing now is fantastic for his age (at least individually)... but Lebron is a better player NOW and is a better player than Kobe was at Lebrons current age.... accept it and stop whining...

Enough with these Kobe vs Lebron threads already, what kindof threat does Lebron pose to you Kobe-stans anyways considering your obligatory hate for him? You do agree Lebron is better right now... or? Whats the problem? Stop acting like children... "Booohoo Lebron shortcut this, Kobe is teh goat!!"2"

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Lebron at 28 has soon 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 Championships
Kobe at 28 had 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs, 3 Championships

Kobe is a top 10 great and what he is doing now is fantastic for his age (at least individually)... but Lebron is a better player NOW and is a better player than Kobe was at Lebrons current age.... accept it and stop whining...

What does Kobe have to do with a Wade/Bosh vs Shaq comparison? Lebron and Kobe are not even the topic. :biggums:

[dbk123]

Lebron at 28 has soon 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 Championships
Kobe at 28 had 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs, 3 Championships

Kobe is a top 10 great and what he is doing now is fantastic for his age (at least individually)... but Lebron is a better player NOW and is a better player than Kobe was at Lebrons current age.... accept it and stop whining...

Enough with these Kobe vs Lebron threads already, what kindof threat does Lebron pose to you Kobe-stans anyways considering your obligatory hate for him? You do agree Lebron is better right now... or? Whats the problem? Stop acting like children... "Booohoo Lebron shortcut this, Kobe is teh goat!!"2"
the thing is.... most kobe stans still think current kobe is playing better than lebron.

[Mr. Jabbar]

How is this a question? You take Shaq. Can you imagine prime Shaq and prime LeBron together? :eek:


G: Chalmers
G: Allen
F: Battier
F: LeBron
C: Shaq

:bowdown:

Not that its a bad team but I wouldn't change Wade and Bosh for Shaq in that rotation. This team is all about transition speed plus you don't need the other team hack-a-shakin' oneal to 50%ft and stagnate the offensive flow and ball movement they so much take pride in.

[dbk123]

Not that its a bad team but I wouldn't change Wade and Bosh for Shaq in that rotation. This team is all about transition speed plus you don't need the other team hack-a-shakin' oneal to 50%ft and stagnate the offensive flow and ball movement they so much take pride in.
i think youre lebron obsession is worse than pauk's.





kobe sucks

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No kidding.

Versus

G: Fisher
G: Wade
F: Bryant
F: Bosh
C: Horry

or

G: Wade
G: Bryant
F: Fox
F: Bosh
C: Horry

That's not the question... this is..

PG
SG Wade
SF
PF Bosh
C

PG
SG
SF
PF
C Shaq

:confusedshrug:

[Myth]

Not that its a bad team but I wouldn't change Wade and Bosh for Shaq in that rotation. This team is all about transition speed plus you don't need the other team hack-a-shakin' oneal to 50%ft and stagnate the offensive flow and ball movement they so much take pride in.

For Shaq, I would take that chance. Get a 4 man break led by LeBron, and if it doesn't work, pull back, let Shaq set up and then make a 2 man game of LeBron and Shaq with Allen in 1 corner and Battier in the other, with Chalmers floating around.

[gcvbcat]

Lebron at 28 has soon 4 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 2 Championships
Kobe at 28 had 0 MVPs, 0 FMVPs, 3 Championships

Kobe is a top 10 great and what he is doing now is fantastic for his age (at least individually)... but Lebron is a better player NOW and is a better player than Kobe was at Lebrons current age.... accept it and stop whining...

Enough with these Kobe vs Lebron threads already, what kindof threat does Lebron pose to you Kobe-stans anyways considering your obligatory hate for him? You do agree Lebron is better right now... or? Whats the problem? Stop acting like children... "Booohoo Lebron shortcut this, Kobe is teh goat!!"2"

???

[elementally morale]

Shaq

[qrich]

For Shaq, I would take that chance. Get a 4 man break led by LeBron, and if it doesn't work, pull back, let Shaq set up and then make a 2 man game of LeBron and Shaq with Allen in 1 corner and Battier in the other, with Chalmers floating around.

Basically. How often do teams have all five players on the break in most situations? Clippers sure as hell don't.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

For Shaq, I would take that chance. Get a 4 man break led by LeBron, and if it doesn't work, pull back, let Shaq set up and then make a 2 man game of LeBron and Shaq with Allen in 1 corner and Battier in the other, with Chalmers floating around.

Sounds pretty sweet. It's too bad Shaq and Lebron were never teammates so we could see this perfect symmetry play out.

[Mr. Jabbar]

That's not the question... this is..

PG
SG Wade
SF
PF Bosh
C

PG
SG
SF
PF
C Shaq

:confusedshrug:

Exactly.

[Myth]

Sounds pretty sweet. It's too bad Shaq and Lebron were never teammates so we could see this perfect symmetry play out.

Huge difference between Lakers era Shaq and Cavs Shaq. I can't believe you thought that was even worth mentioning.

[elementally morale]

Exactly.

Still prime (peak) Shaq.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Not sure why Lebron fans are expecting to keep the superior Heat bench as well. You don't take Shaq and keep the Heat 3 pters. You have to take Shaq and those others scrubs in yellow not named Kobe. :confusedshrug:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Still prime (peak) Shaq.

I see Prime shaq as the superior player of the 3, put he can potentially give you 48 mpg, while Bosh + Wade can give you 96. I don't see the gap in quality that can make up for that.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

PG Wade
SG Allen
SF Kobe
PF Battier
C Bosh

vs

PG Fisher
SG Fox
SF Lebron
PF Horry
C Shaq

:confusedshrug:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

PG Wade
SG Allen
SF Kobe
PF Battier
C Bosh

:confusedshrug:
That team gets absolutely raped on the glass.

[Mr. Jabbar]

That team gets absolutely raped on the glass.

That team can also shoot from everywhere they please in the 5 positions, sick

[qrich]

Huge difference between Lakers era Shaq and Cavs Shaq. I can't believe you thought that was even worth mentioning.

Ignore list comes in perfectly with that dude. He would probably say Nash got to play with Shaq as well


That team gets absolutely raped on the glass.

:roll:

Imagine what Hibbert/West would do to that front court. Or even Millsap/Jefferson. Marc/ZBo. Faried/McGee/Kofous.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ignore list comes in perfectly with that dude. He would probably say Nash got to play with Shaq as well



:roll:

Imagine what Hibbert/West would do to that front court. Or even Millsap/Jefferson. Marc/ZBo. Faried/McGee/Kofous.

The Heat have won 22 in a row with that frontcourt. :confusedshrug:

[Myth]

PG Wade
SG Allen
SF Kobe
PF Battier
C Bosh

vs

PG Fisher
SG Fox
SF Lebron
PF Horry
C Shaq

:confusedshrug:

I take team #2. Btw, I think that team #1 would have Allen come off the bench and have Chalmers start at point. I think that balances them a little better than having 4 wings in the game and no point guard.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

That team can also shoot from everywhere they please in the 5 positions, sick

It's cool we know how much prime Shaq loves guarding away from the basket.

I think Sabonis is still draining wide open no elevation jumpers.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

The Heat have won 22 in a row with that frontcourt. :confusedshrug:
Clearly you don't watch any games:

- Heat start Haslem not Battier

- Lebron >> Kobe as a rebounder

[qrich]

I take team #2. Btw, I think that team #1 would have Allen come off the bench and have Chalmers start at point. I think that balances them a little better than having 4 wings in the game and no point guard.

Man, I'm tempted to take ignore off :roll:

Current LeBron with prime 02 Shaq would be deadly.

[Myth]

Ignore list comes in perfectly with that dude. He would probably say Nash got to play with Shaq as well
.

I don't know that poster well enough to be annoyed with him to the point of ignoring him.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Clearly you don't watch any games:

- Heat start Haslem not Battier

- Lebron >> Kobe as a rebounder

Old Kobe has the most dominant Game 7 NBA Finals shooting guard rebounding performance of all time under his belt, I'm sure young Kobe could adjust to whatever his new team wanted him to do.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Old Kobe has the most dominant Game 7 NBA Finals shooting guard rebounding performance of all time under his belt, I'm sure young Kobe could adjust to whatever his new team wanted him to do.


:lol :lol

[Myth]

Old Kobe has the most dominant Game 7 NBA Finals shooting guard rebounding performance of all time under his belt, I'm sure young Kobe could adjust to whatever his new team wanted him to do.

One game does not mean somebody could be consistent with that. It also depends on the other team's game plan, and athleticism does not equal better rebounding anyway. I'm sure Kobe picked up a trick or two in his years playing the game. Could young Kobe have a great rebounding night? Sure. Would he do it consistently? I doubt it. Would he do it consistently against prime LeBron? I highly doubt that.

[Myth]

:lol :lol

This is a much better response than mine. Sometimes I wonder why I respond seriously to ridiculous ideas. Especially the idea that young Kobe would do whatever his team wants rather than doing whatever young Kobe wants (which was to shoot above all else).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

One game does not mean somebody could be consistent with that. It also depends on the other team's game plan, and athleticism does not equal better rebounding anyway. I'm sure Kobe picked up a trick or two in his years playing the game. Could young Kobe have a great rebounding night? Sure. Would he do it consistently? I doubt it. Would he do it consistently against prime LeBron? I highly doubt that.

You are assuming Lebron even makes the Finals. Young Kobe/Wade/Bosh don't even have to face a 50 win team on the path to the Finals. That awkward Shaq and Lebron team have to face the loaded Kings, Blazers and Spurs.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

This is a much better response than mine. Sometimes I wonder why I respond seriously to ridiculous ideas. Especially the idea that young Kobe would do whatever his team wants rather than doing whatever young Kobe wants (which was to shoot above all else).

Isn't old Kobe earning all defensive team selections to this day due to through defensive effort he put forth in his youth? That's what you guys keep telling me at least.

[Myth]

You are assuming Lebron even makes the Finals. Young Kobe/Wade/Bosh don't even have to face a 50 win team on the path to the Finals. That awkward Shaq and Lebron team have to face the loaded Kings, Blazers and Spurs.

I thought we were talking about 1 team versus another.

I counter your hypothetical situation with pointing out that Shaq on the 2011 Heat instead of Wade and Bosh may have put the Heat over the top of the Mavs. Any way we mix up these hypothetical situations can change the results, whether for good or for bad.

[Myth]

Isn't old Kobe earning all defensive team selections to this day due to through defensive effort he put forth in his youth? That's what you guys keep telling me at least.

I don't think I told you shit in that department. And rebounding and defense are different. We were talking about rebounding, and somewhere you pull out this defensive team selection shit like it is relevant to what we were talking about. :confusedshrug:

Now I'm seeing why qrich suggested ignore.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I thought we were talking about 1 team versus another.

I counter your hypothetical situation with pointing out that Shaq on the 2011 Heat instead of Wade and Bosh may have put the Heat over the top of the Mavs. Any way we mix up these hypothetical situations can change the results, whether for good or for bad.

You don't get both Shaq, the easy path to championship and the superior Heat benches. You get Shaq, the other Lakers not named Kobe and the much more difficult path to the title.

[qrich]

You don't get both Shaq, the easy path to championship and the superior Heat benches. You get Shaq, the other Lakers not named Kobe and the much more difficult path to the title.

Taking ignore off for a minute was well worth it.

What do the Lakers or the Heat have to do with this if it wasn't Kobe vs LeBron? I mean, afterall, aren't you the Kobe Loving ****** who earlier asked why Kobe was brought in?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't think I told you shit in that department. And rebounding and defense are different. We were talking about rebounding, and somewhere you pull out this defensive team selection shit like it is relevant to what we were talking about. :confusedshrug:

Now I'm seeing why qrich suggested ignore.

You suggested all young Kobe cared about is scoring, yet its a common held belief on this board that Kobe Bryant has only been given all defensive team selections in recent years due to his defense back during the first 3 peat. Obviously young Kobe doesn't only care about scoring. :confusedshrug:

[Myth]

You don't get both Shaq, the easy path to championship and the superior Heat benches. You get Shaq, the other Lakers not named Kobe and the much more difficult path to the title.

I was talking about the 2011 Heat if they hypothetically had Shaq instead of Wade/Bosh, I wasn't talking about the Lakers :facepalm

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Taking ignore off for a minute was well worth it.

What do the Lakers or the Heat have to do with this if it wasn't Kobe vs LeBron? I mean, afterall, aren't you the Kobe Loving ****** who earlier asked why Kobe was brought in?

The initial question didn't but then you guys started creating fantasy situations where Lebron gets his creampuff path to the title, keeps his superior Heat teammates and gets prime Shaq. That's not how it works if you wanted to make it an actual young Kobe vs Lebron comparison.

[plowking]

Some of you have your lips so far up your favorite players ass that you can't admit the surrounding player(s) were better than a player you don't like.

Anyone with a brain would take Shaq over Wade and Bosh. You Kobe jock riders are idiots who don't even actually believe your own f*cking arguments. You just look stupid. Lakers Shaq with current Bron would make current Bron the second option more than likely. More than likely he does that to every player that ever played. He was that good.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

BTW You guys don't have to update on me on how you are about to put me on ignore or took me off and put me back on. You sound ridiculous with the inane threats.

[Suckafree]

As much as I love Kobe..... I'm kinda wanting him to retire so the ******gers will ease up on the internet.

Seriously, nearly every NBA message board is just filled with Kobe trolls.

[ripthekik]

I think it has to been made clear. It is:

1) Shaq + below average players and bench
Going through strong West playoffs with Blazers, Kings, etc and the possibility of hack-a-shaq

2) Wade+ Bosh + Ray + Battier and all their shooters
Going through a weak east as currently: no superstars

Which would be easier to win a ring?

[Human Error]

I like Wade and Bosh as much as anyone here but Shaq + average NBA SG >> Bosh + Wade.

[Flash31]

As much as I want to say Shaq because he would murder and absolutely exterminate any center in the league today,Im choosing Wade and Bosh for the very simple fact that one great plus good beats one legend.

Teams would play zone and front,double shaq,and people think hack a howard is bad now,it would be shaq 20-40 fta every night,either he would become a great ft shooter or get his 20-30 pts but all with the game stopped and no flow.

People keep forgetting just looking at avg for wade and bosh now that they are still superstars,They just TAKE less Shots and play less Min and arent and dont have the main focus of the team or the opponent every night.

Bosh avg 24,11 his last in tor and 20,9 total in tor and wade had 27

[jlip]

Oh look...A Kobe vs Lebron thread. How original.

[Flush]

Is it prime Shaq? How about wade and bosh? Are they in their primes?

[elementally morale]

I see Prime shaq as the superior player of the 3, put he can potentially give you 48 mpg, while Bosh + Wade can give you 96. I don't see the gap in quality that can make up for that.

There is only one ball.

[InfiniteBaskets]

Even Kobe himself would rather have Shaq to play with than Wade and Bosh.

[KyrieTheFuture]

So why are people acting like Hack a Shaq is a hard way to play? That's not a very effective method against him.

[tpols]

If you added up the stats of Brook Lopez and Kris Humphries youd have prime Shaqs numbers.. so that argument doesnt really work.

[PJR]

Even Kobe himself would rather have Shaq to play with than Wade and Bosh.

Ofcourse he would. Because playing on the Heat he'd have to work twice as hard defensivly to execute Spoelstra's trap heavy scheme.

There is no 7'1 330lbs behemoth to funnel your man to on the Heat. :oldlol:

The answer to this question is easily Shaq. All time great size. Having elite post players/size makes the game so much easier.

[tazb]

OP failed big time. Only a retard would take Option 1.

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron and Shaq two of the top 5 peak players in NBA history on the same team, are you kidding me? How could this even be a question?

Ok that aside how about looking at it from a different angle. LeBron + Shaq on the same team would be roughly 34 millon. LeBron + Wade + Bosh is roughly 51 millon.

That means you have roughly 24 million to fill out the bench, and other starters. 24 million gets you any GREAT third player you want, much better than Bosh...

[SilkkTheShocker]

Definitely Shaq. By far the most dominant player ever. LeBron's FG% would be even higher playing with Shaq. And this is from someone that thinks Wade/Bosh are both criminally underrated.

[pegasus]

Some of you have your lips so far up your favorite players ass that you can't admit the surrounding player(s) were better than a player you don't like.

Anyone with a brain would take Shaq over Wade and Bosh. You Kobe jock riders are idiots who don't even actually believe your own f*cking arguments. You just look stupid. Lakers Shaq with current Bron would make current Bron the second option more than likely. More than likely he does that to every player that ever played. He was that good.

Even to pair him with Lebron? You do realize you're saying that despite the fact that Lebron's style of play could do nothing for dominant centers who can't shoot, right?

He is lucky he's got Wade, Bosh, and a bunch of great shooters/defenders. If he was as good as you homers are trying to make him out to be, he would win multiple rings with the same cast minus Wade. But as long as he's got Wade, we'll never know how good he could have been, and we'll always remember how he came up short year after year prior to teaming up with him (even once after, despite Wade playing at an FMVP level).

[SilkkTheShocker]

Sounds pretty sweet. It's too bad Shaq and Lebron were never teammates so we could see this perfect symmetry play out.

Shaq missed 1/3 the season in Cleveland and was in his late 30s.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Past-prime Shaq in 06 was still getting heavy attention on defense. Can you imagine prime Shaq and prime LeBron on the same team? They win 70 games and the championship. LeBron/Wade/Bosh can win championships but they wouldn't ever be as dominant as they would with prime Shaq.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Even to pair him with Lebron? You do realize you're saying that despite the fact that Lebron's style of play could do nothing for dominant centers who can't shoot, right?

He is lucky he's got Wade, Bosh, and a bunch of great shooters/defenders. If he was as good as you homers are trying to make him out to be, he would win multiple rings with the same cast minus Wade. But as long as he's got Wade, we'll never know how good he could have been, and we'll always remember how he came up short year after year prior to teaming up with him (even once after, despite Wade playing at an FMVP level).

It takes two to tango. No other star player wanted to play in Cleveland. Why do you think all of LeBron's best (and I use that term loosely) teammates in Cleveland were salary dumps? Shaq, Williams, and Jamison were also traded for magic beans because their respective teams wanted nothing to do with them. Im not sure why people like to ignore this fact. NBA players don't want to play in Cleveland.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Even to pair him with Lebron? You do realize you're saying that despite the fact that Lebron's style of play could do nothing for dominant centers who can't shoot, right?

I'd imagine it would work something like Wade and Shaq did.

[ripthekik]

I think it has to been made clear. It is:

1) Shaq + below average players and bench
Going through strong West playoffs with Blazers, Kings, etc and the possibility of hack-a-shaq

2) Wade+ Bosh + Ray + Battier and all their shooters
Going through a weak east as currently: no superstars

Which would be easier to win a ring?
I quote myself, to remind others who said Shaq: they're not going to win the championship. In the 2000's west, all they have to do is hack-a-shaq. Dwight got what, 36 free throws? Do that to Shaq every playoff game.

So what's Lebron going to do when he's all alone? Choke like old times. 2011 all over again.

Lebron+Shaq would be very easy for the spurs or other western teams to beat with team effort. The only reason they couldnt beat the lakers was because of Kobe. He was too clutch to give a damn if shaq got hacked.

and, if you put a prime kobe in today's Eastern conference with prime wade and bosh, please. easier ring than a lay-up.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I'd imagine it would work something like Wade and Shaq did.


People still think the "clog the lane" theory is a real thing.

[pegasus]

I'd imagine it would work something like Wade and Shaq did.

I hate the guy, but Wade is one of the best slashers of all time, and his mid-range was money in 2006 (let's not forget the "zebras", but they would be in full effect for Lebron too, so that's a wash), which are two things Lebron cannot do consistently at an elite level.

Barreling into defenders is not slashing, and I can see him missing critical free throws, forcing him to overthink his drive and shoot instead (which usually becomes unreliable in the playoffs) and pass more, but who's gonna shoot/slash/create for him? Especially in the 4th quarters when Shaq is busy missing most of his own free throws.

Let's stop pretending that Lebron's style of play would work with most super stars. Bosh is an incredible shooter who came tailor made for Lebron, and Wade had to alter his game drastically to mesh with Lebron, and Riley went out and recruited every great shooter out there for him.

[pegasus]

It takes two to tango. No other star player wanted to play in Cleveland. Why do you think all of LeBron's best (and I use that term loosely) teammates in Cleveland were salary dumps? Shaq, Williams, and Jamison were also traded for magic beans because their respective teams wanted nothing to do with them. Im not sure why people like to ignore this fact. NBA players don't want to play in Cleveland.

He could have talked Bosh into teaming up with him in NY before they got Amare, or could have just joined Amare. I would say that he didn't need to team up with a top-5 player, but the results before and after indicate that he did. I'm cool with that as long as people remember it when they try to place him in top-10 all time above the other greats who didn't have to do what he did.

[ripthekik]

He could have talked Bosh into teaming up with him in NY before they got Amare, or could have just joined Amare. I would say that he didn't need to team up with a top-5 player, but the results before and after indicate that he did. I'm cool with that as long as people remember it when they try to place him in top-10 all time above the other greats who didn't have to do what he did.
beautifully put, well done.

[KingBeasley08]

If I'm building an NBA team, I'm taking Shaq if I have the first overall pick. Yeah, over Jordan.

[Ne 1]

1) Shaq + below average players and bench


This. The 3-peat Lakers relied HEAVILY on their two best players and it was far more a two headed monster in LA than just Shaq and his little Robin aka Kobe Bryant like Kobe detractors like to believe. Especially in 2001/2002 Kobe & Shaq were Co-MVP level. Much like Magic & Kareem.

They won 3 straight championships, which is a rare feat. Who was the 3rd best player on those team? Glen Rice and Rick Fox/Derek Fisher? Those team were not very talented outside of Shaq and Kobe, they had below average role players starting at each position outside of their center and shooting guard, and they had a weak bench. Yet they weren't just a championship caliber team, but they were a DYNASTY. In fact, out of all the dynasties in NBA history those Lakers were CLEARLY the least talented. Shaq and Kobe BOTH deserve huge amounts of credit for those 3 championships.

The 3-peat Lakers were not a typical championship team, because there was no 3rd All-Star caliber player, or even really a 3rd scoring option (much less a superstar as their 3rd option like Chris Bosh) save for 2000 with an aging Glen Rice in that role putting up 12/4/2 on 41% shooting in the playoffs. This left plenty of room for Kobe to play his game and produce like a first option himself with Derek Fisher or Rick Fox as the closest thing the team had to a 3rd option in 2001 and 2002. Neither were scoring options. The offense went through Shaq first, but Kobe didn't have to take a backseat like Wade has the last 2 seasons because there's no Chris Bosh, much less a Ray Allen now as well, and because Kobe was improving, not declining like Wade.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He could have talked Bosh into teaming up with him in NY before they got Amare, or could have just joined Amare. I would say that he didn't need to team up with a top-5 player, but the results before and after indicate that he did. I'm cool with that as long as people remember it when they try to place him in top-10 all time above the other greats who didn't have to do what he did.


Amare signed in New York before the Big 3 formed in Miami if I remember right. Bosh also was sold on living in Miami and starting a family there. It was either NYC or Cleveland, and from the reports, the Knicks absolutely bombed their interview with LeBron.

[SilkkTheShocker]

beautifully put, well done.


Bosh wanted to live in Miami. Amare was going to any team that paid him the max. And only NYC was willing to do it considering the contract couldn't be insured.

[Mr. Incredible]

Someone is a little jealous :lol

[ripthekik]

Bosh wanted to live in Miami. Amare was going to any team that paid him the max. And only NYC was willing to do it considering the contract couldn't be insured.
Lebron could have went to the Knicks with Amare and carved his own legend. He did not. Lebron also could have went to the Bulls.

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron could have went to the Knicks with Amare and carved his own legend. He did not. Lebron also could have went to the Bulls.

LeBron isn't doing that right now? :oldlol:

only morons like yourself would think LBJ isn't climbing the All Time Greats list yearly.

[ripthekik]

LeBron isn't doing that right now? :oldlol:

only morons like yourself would think LBJ isn't climbing the All Time Greats list yearly.
Nope. 40 years later, someone would bring up one of the Alll-time greats: Lebron James. The other kid says: prime Wade and Bosh. End of conversation.

[NumberSix]

You don't surround your superstar with Shaq. Shaq is the superstar you surround.

[Bigsmoke]

I think it has to been made clear. It is:

1) Shaq + below average players and bench
Going through strong West playoffs with Blazers, Kings, etc and the possibility of hack-a-shaq

2) Wade+ Bosh + Ray + Battier and all their shooters
Going through a weak east as currently: no superstars

Which would be easier to win a ring?

Horry, Fisher, and Fox >>> current Battier

[ripthekik]

Horry, Fisher, and Fox >>> current Battier
Horry, Fisher, and Fox > Battier, Haslem, Ray Allen, Chris Anderson, Chalmers, Mike Miller??? really? :eek:

[lilgodfather1]

Ok so since this is for some reason still going on i'll put it down this way to end the debate.

LeBron - 17,545,000
Shaq 2000 - 19,285,715
Ray Allen - 3,090,000
Kevin Love - 13,668,750
Mario Chalmers - 4,000,000

Starting line up total - 57,589,465

Current Heat

LeBron - 17,545,000
Wade - 17,024,000
Bosh - 17,545,000
Rio - 4,000,000
Haslem - 4,060,000

Staring line up total - 60,174,000

Tony Allen - 3,300,000
Ian Mahinimi - 4,000,000
Billups - 3,000,000
CJ Miles - 2,225,000
Brandon Bass - 6,500,000
Lewis - 1,352,181
Cole - 1,113,600
Birdman - 699,952
Harrelson - 358,680
Terrel Harris - 304,878
Jarvis Varnado - 275,804

Bench total - 23,130,095

Current Heat Bench

Miller - 5,800,000
Anthony - 3,750,000
Jones - 3,350,000
Battier - 3,135,000
Allen - 3,090,000
Lewis - 1,352,181
Cole - 1,113,600
Birdman - 699,952
Harrelson - 358,680
Terrel Harris - 304,878
Jarvis Varnado - 275,804

Total - 23,230,095

Made up team total - 80,719,560

Current Heat total - 83,404,095

Difference - 2,684,535

That's right on a team that has two of the top 5 players of all time peak wise, and the best PF (or second) in the NBA on it I spent less money, while giving them a better bench, and a complimentary starting line up.

I didn't use any players on rookie contracts to my knowledge.

Easily 70 wins.

[Bigsmoke]

If I'm building an NBA team, I'm taking Shaq if I have the first overall pick. Yeah, over Jordan.

you're going a little too far with that

Jordan is the G.O.A.T. and isn't lazy like Shaq was.

I would draft Kareem, Hakeem, and Duncan over shaq too.

Shaq was overall better than Duncan and Hakeem but i know what i would get out of Duncan and Hakeem. Neither Duncan and Hakeem would cause our orginazation problems like Shaq did with all of his teams he was on besides when he was in Cleveland and Boston. Can be because he was immature for he most part. Not to mention Shaq's P&R defense was ass and his FT% was horrible.

[Bigsmoke]

Horry, Fisher, and Fox > Battier, Haslem, Ray Allen, Chris Anderson, Chalmers, Mike Miller??? really? :eek:

Mike Miller doesnt even play :lol

but how are u going to mention Battier like he's some star but be like "Horry, Fox, and Fisher were below average"

[ripthekik]

Mike Miller doesnt even play :lol

but how are u going to mention Battier like he's some star but be like "Horry, Fox, and Fisher were below average"
Mike Miller dropped 7 threes in the finals for the Heat last season, foo'.
Battier has always been a great player, he has been defending the opposite team's best player for YEARS, and doesn't need the ball in his hands, can knock down the 3 shot and make clutch defensive plays.

[MisterAmazing]

Wade and Bosh have a combined 3 rings (2 in one year) with one Finals MVP.

Shaq has 4 rings with three FMVPs. Should have been 5ive rings but we know what happened with one of them.

This is a pretty easy decision really.

Unless you are talking right now, than Wade and Bosh over a 41 year old Shaq. Hell, I'd take current Chris Kaman over a 41 year old Shaq.

this. not much of a question really...

[LikeABosh]

What you don't mention is Shaq was the Alpha on that team, winning all three finals MVP while Kobe rode him, also don't forget about the GOAT coach Phil Jackson

[NumberSix]

Horry, Fisher, and Fox > Battier, Haslem, Ray Allen, Chris Anderson, Chalmers, Mike Miller??? really? :eek:
Lol. You say that like that's some epic roster or something.:roll:

[Ne 1]

What you don't mention is Shaq was the Alpha on that team, winning all three finals MVP while Kobe rode him

Alright, then let's call a spade a spade. I don't see why we should diminish Kobe for winning with Shaq. Nobody diminishes Magic for winning with Kareem. But if you want to say Kobe piggy backed Shaq for 3 rings, let's also bring up that LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He then BEGGED for help to get a ring and moved to another top 3 superstar's franchise and city who had also already acquired another top 15-20 perennial All-Star/Top 5 PF in the league because the route to a ring and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been anywhere else. Hence why he said they would win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us."

btw for all this talk about "alphas" and #1 options" usually, when a guy is the undisputed alpha, he's the player taking the last shots, closing out games, being a go to guy when the game is on the line among many other things. For the Lakers, that was often Kobe Bryant. That isn't often examined... Kobe was generally "plan B" throughout the game as far as scoring goes. However in the 4th quarter, he often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" if Phil sat Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were riding the coattails of other players asked to take over so consistently? Plus, it's not like Kobe was a role player or a Tony Parker level 2nd option.
He was part of a one-two punch duo, and he averaged 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5 in the playoffs in the playoffs while taking the last shots.

[Gotterdammerung]

Which one would you rather pick to surround your superstar in order to win championships. Shortcut #1 or Option #2?

Shaq, no question.
:kobe:

He was the greatest power center ever to play the game. More powerful than Wilt Chamberlain, tho not as versatile in scoring, and more dominant than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, tho not as unstoppable, and more relentless than Moses Malone, tho not as consistent.

Dwyane Wade's talents overlap with LeBron James far too much, and it took them nearly 2 years to figure it out, how to play off the ball, despite being in their primes.

Chris Bosh is a solid all-star, effective, but nothing dominant.

Every intelligent GM will go with Shaq.

Every troll will go with "shortcut #1." :no:

[Bigsmoke]

Mike Miller dropped 7 threes in the finals for the Heat last season, foo'.
Battier has always been a great player, he has been defending the opposite team's best player for YEARS, and doesn't need the ball in his hands, can knock down the 3 shot and make clutch defensive plays.
for so many years that he's getting old maybe :confusedshrug:

just because Mike Miller showed up in 1 game doesn't mean he is a bragging right to have nowadays. LeBron was the reason why he was so opened in the first place

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Lol. You say that like that's some epic roster or something.:roll:

I don't remember those Lakers shooting anything like this in any series during the 3 peat.

http://i.imgur.com/N4r4gJP.png

39/82 48% from 3 :confusedshrug:

[Bigsmoke]

Alright, then let's call a spade a spade. I don't see why we should diminish Kobe for winning with Shaq. Nobody diminishes Magic for winning with Kareem. But if you want to say Kobe piggy backed Shaq for 3 rings, let's also bring up that LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He then BEGGED for help to get a ring and moved to another top 3 superstar's franchise and city who had also already acquired another top 15-20 perennial All-Star/Top 5 PF in the league because the route to a ring and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been anywhere else. Hence why he said they would win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us."

let's say LeBron stayed in cleveland and the Cavs continued to do little effort to bring in talent. We would all be like

"LeBron could have went to the Heat and form a dynasty but instead he picked the money like a dumbass"

he would be in KG's shoes when he was in Minny

[LikeABosh]

Alright, then let's call a spade a spade. I don't see why we should diminish Kobe for winning with Shaq. Nobody diminishes Magic for winning with Kareem. But if you want to say Kobe piggy backed Shaq for 3 rings, let's also bring up that LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He then BEGGED for help to get a ring and moved to another top 3 superstar's franchise and city who had also already acquired another top 15-20 perennial All-Star/Top 5 PF in the league because the route to a ring and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been anywhere else. Hence why he said they would win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us."

btw for all this talk about "alphas" and #1 options" usually, when a guy is the undisputed alpha, he's the player taking the last shots, closing out games, being a go to guy when the game is on the line among many other things. For the Lakers, that was often Kobe Bryant. That isn't often examined... Kobe was generally "plan B" throughout the game as far as scoring goes. However in the 4th quarter, he often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" if Phil sat Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were riding the coattails of other players asked to take over so consistently? Plus, it's not like Kobe was a role player or a Tony Parker level 2nd option.
He was part of a one-two punch duo, and he averaged 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5 in the playoffs in the playoffs while taking the last shots.
I'm not trying to diminish what Kobe did, I'm just calling out OP for being a retard. Acting like like Kobe some how had it tougher than Lebron has it with ****ing prime Shaq Phil Jackson and the most illustrious franchise in NBA history

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not trying to diminish what Kobe did, I'm just calling out OP for being a retard. Acting like like Kobe some how had it tougher than Lebron has it with ****ing prime Shaq Phil Jackson and the most illustrious franchise in NBA history

Do you think Magic, Kareem and West were on the team too? :oldlol: Their history had nothing to do with winning those titles on the court.

[Ne 1]

let's say LeBron stayed in cleveland and the Cavs continued to do little effort to bring in talent. We would all be like

"LeBron could have went to the Heat and form a dynasty but instead he picked the money like a dumbass"

he would be in KG's shoes when he was in Minny

Well who knows how well that 2010 Cavs team does if LeBron doesn't visibly quit and pout vs Boston. Even Delonte West played better than LeBron during that game 5 vs Boston where he gave up on his team before the series was over. We'll never know now what their capabilities were. Did LeBron have a superstar co-runner with the Cavs? No, but he had well built teams with appropriate pieces that fit LeBron's game, strength and playing stye and the worst part about that whole debacle was that years Cavs team actually did have a legit shot at winning a championship. If the Cavs could have gotten past the East they would have had the eventual champion Lakers, who they swept during the regular season. The would have faced Orlando again that year but this time with Shaq who was their to slow down and cause problems for Dwight. The Cavs also had home court advantage for two straight 60+ win seasons and couldn't get to the Finals once and got bounced in the semis as a 1st seed. A team that is capable of winning 60+ wins two seasons in a row isn't capable of winning a title? I think not. I don't see how Lebron didn't have a " good enough team" when it was HIM who played poorly game 5 vs Boston and not his teammates. James was 3-14 in that game while looking absolutely lost on both sides of the court while a shell of himself Shaq was 7-11 and Parker was 5-8.

But anyway the point is James didn't compete to the best of his abilities. Look at the 2012 Heat. They were worse talent wise and health wise than the 2011 Heat and IMO faced a superior Finals opponent, and a better Conference Finals opponent. What was the difference? LeBron tried. In 2011, he gave up in the Finals and went into full Casper mode.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I hate the guy, but Wade is one of the best slashers of all time, and his mid-range was money in 2006 (let's not forget the "zebras", but they would be in full effect for Lebron too, so that's a wash), which are two things Lebron cannot do consistently at an elite level.

Barreling into defenders is not slashing, and I can see him missing critical free throws, forcing him to overthink his drive and shoot instead (which usually becomes unreliable in the playoffs) and pass more, but who's gonna shoot/slash/create for him? Especially in the 4th quarters when Shaq is busy missing most of his own free throws.


Okay, the actual facts:

- Lebron this year is shooting a better percentage from mid range than Dwyane Wade did in '06.

- If you want to say all Lebron does is "barrel into defenders" that's fine but he still gets to the rim and converts at an elite level so it doesn't matter how he does it.

- They both shoot roughly the same FT%. Lebron is actually shooting better than wade in "clutch time".

[Bigsmoke]

Well who knows how well that 2010 Cavs team does if LeBron doesn't visibly quit and pout vs Boston. Even Delonte West played better than LeBron during that game 5 vs Boston where he gave up on his team before the series was over. We'll never know now what their capabilities were. Did LeBron have a superstar co-runner with the Cavs? No, but he had well built teams with appropriate pieces that fit LeBron's game, strength and playing stye and the worst part about that whole debacle was that years Cavs team actually did have a legit shot at winning a championship. If the Cavs could have gotten past the East they would have had the eventual champion Lakers, who they swept during the regular season. The would have faced Orlando again that year but this time with Shaq who was their to slow down and cause problems for Dwight. The Cavs also had home court advantage for two straight 60+ win seasons and couldn't get to the Finals once and got bounced in the semis as a 1st seed. A team that is capable of winning 60+ wins two seasons in a row isn't capable of winning a title? I think not. I don't see how Lebron didn't have a " good enough team" when it was HIM who played poorly game 5 vs Boston and not his teammates. James was 3-14 in that game while looking absolutely lost on both sides of the court while a shell of himself Shaq was 7-11 and Parker was 5-8.

But anyway the point is James didn't compete to the best of his abilities. Look at the 2012 Heat. They were worse talent wise and health wise than the 2011 Heat and IMO faced a superior Finals opponent, and a better Conference Finals opponent. What was the difference? LeBron tried. In 2011, he gave up in the Finals and went into full Casper mode.

here is what i see from what u wrote

-The Cavs lost by 32 in game 5 vs the Celtics. The Celtics were just roling that game and were going to win regarless on how well LeBron James played. LeBron for the most part make Paul Pierce look hell of average in that series but the Celtics had other player completely outplaying their matchups.

-The Heat in 2011 was really just 3 guys going apeshit. Wade was better in 2011 but they had mad holes in their roster and Erik Spoelstra was badly outcoached by rick carlisle

-The Cavs didn't do much to keep LeBron james in Cleveland during the off season. The Heat, Bulls, and the Knicks all had brought in players to attract LeBron's attention while the Cavs didn't do anything to retool.

-Cleveland is a shitty city. Cold, boring, depressing, smelly, you name it. Chicago and NY are cold too but at least we have... i dont know... shit to do :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Thread backfire. Peggy butthurt as usual, no one listening to his sad attempts at trolling.

[Ne 1]

here is what i see from what u wrote
..........



here is what i see from what u wrote:

Whenever LeBron's teams lost, it was all because of his teammates, coach and front office, but whenever they win, it's all because of LeBron's greatness, in fact he's so great that he needed to collude and join forces with two other superstars in their prime in order to win championships.

In other word's: me and pauk are ISH's official LeBron apologists. (pauk actually blamed Wade for Miami's melt down against Dallas in '11, not even joking) :roll:

[LikeABosh]

Do you think Magic, Kareem and West were on the team too? :oldlol: Their history had nothing to do with winning those titles on the court.
Lakers are a superbly run organization.

[Bigsmoke]

here is what i see from what u wrote:

Whenever LeBron's teams lost, it was all because of his teammates, coach and front office, but whenever they win, it's all because of LeBron's greatness, in fact he's so great that he needed to collude and join forces with two other superstars in their prime in order to win championships.

In other word's: me and pauk are ISH's official LeBron apologists. (pauk actually blamed Wade for Miami's melt down against Dallas in '11, not even joking) :roll:

i think LeBron's failure are well documented :confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but wasn't there a story about an ISH poster who followed Kobe's into a men's-room?

[RRR3]

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but wasn't there a story about an ISH poster who followed Kobe's into a men's-room?
They wanted to see the Black Mamba.