forget Jordan and Kobe... Lebron should worry about hakeem

[kennethgriffin]

first worry about hakeem and his 2 titles

then worry about bird and his 3 titles

then worry about shaq and his 4 titles

then worry about kobe and his 5 titles
















then worry about jordan and his 6 titles




am i right? enough already... lebron fans are skipping to the finish line. its sort of disrespectful

[ripthekik]

i agree. and Hakeem actually won without a stacked team.. more respect to that man. to his franchise as well.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You forgot about Derek Fisher. Don't he have 5 rings? :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

You forgot about Derek Fisher. Don't he have 5 rings? :confusedshrug:
trollllllll. Only people with FMVP enter the discussion. kthxbye

[The Choken One]

1/3 in the finals.

I think he should worry about disappearing for a 3rd time before he worries about being considered a top player.

[Stern]

Hakeem >>>>> Shaq>Duncan, Kobe > Lebron

[Tking714]

He needs to worry about Wade first

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

trollllllll. Only people with FMVP enter the discussion. kthxbye

So Lebron just needs one more FMVP to tie Kobe? Ouch!

[Scholar]

Oh, let's also add Derek Fisher and his 5 championship rings, as well as Robert Horry and his 7 rings!

Oh! And Sam Jones & his 10 titles!!!

How about Bill Russell & his 11 rings?



:facepalm


A player's ring count should not be the deciding factor of his greatness. LeBron is clearly a top 10 talent skill-wise. Championships are more of a team accomplishment, though I would say a player's rings shouldn't be excluded when discussing the GOAT.
Whether he's great enough for top 5 nominations is something the basketball world will have to decide collectively once he retires.



And I know the cheap tactic of leaving Cleveland to play in a stacked Heat team is always going to put an asterisk next to however many rings he wins (whether it's just the one has now or ends up with 1+ more), but you still can't deny that LBJ has the skills to give all legends a run for their money.

[eurobum]

first worry about hakeem and his 2 titles

then worry about bird and his 3 titles

then worry about shaq and his 4 titles

then worry about kobe and his 5 titles
















then worry about jordan and his 6 titles




am i right? enough already... lebron fans are skipping to the finish line. its sort of disrespectful

:oldlol: Hadn't noticed your avatar till now.

[DaSeba5]

1/3 in the finals.

I think he should worry about disappearing for a 3rd time before he worries about being considered a top player.

Why would he worry about choking a 3rd time if he's already proven himself in the Finals last year? If anything, he is far more confident.

[ripthekik]

So Lebron just needs one more FMVP to tie Kobe? Ouch!
Nope, I said, "enter the discussion". So once you have 1 FMVP, we can discuss rings.

So... 5>1
ouch!

[Papaya Petee]

Nope, I said, "enter the discussion". So once you have 1 FMVP, we can discuss rings.

So... 5>1
ouch!
You can say whatever you want, your opinion has zero value.

[The Choken One]

Why would he worry about choking a 3rd time if he's already proven himself in the Finals last year? If anything, he is far more confident.
After the ridiculous number of choke jobs he had, I'm not convinced. He finally has one good playoffs and all the sudden he's god?

Only an idiot would buy into that. I'm looking at this reasonably, he still has a pretty good chance of not showing up once the going gets rough, especially now that they haven't encountered much resistance in the regular season.

[red1]

Oh, let's also add Derek Fisher and his 5 championship rings, as well as Robert Horry and his 7 rings!

Oh! And Sam Jones & his 10 titles!!!

How about Bill Russell & his 11 rings?



:facepalm


A player's ring count should not be the deciding factor of his greatness. LeBron is clearly a top 10 talent skill-wise. Championships are more of a team accomplishment, though I would say a player's rings shouldn't be excluded when discussing the GOAT.
Whether he's great enough for top 5 nominations is something the basketball world will have to decide collectively once he retires.



And I know the cheap tactic of leaving Cleveland to play in a stacked Heat team is always going to put an asterisk next to however many rings he wins (whether it's just the one has now or ends up with 1+ more), but you still can't deny that LBJ has the skills to give all legends a run for their money.
repped

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nope, I said, "enter the discussion". So once you have 1 FMVP, we can discuss rings.



Oh okay. So, Lebron has a championship and a FMVP; which means he's merely in the discussion. Another title and FMVP and he kicks Kobe outta the top 10 is what you're saying. That actually makes sense, dude. :pimp:

[ripthekik]

Oh okay. So, Lebron has a championship and a FMVP; he's merely in the discussion. Another title and FMVP and he kicks Kobe outta the top 10 is what you're saying. That actually makes sense, dude. :pimp:
Um.. I dont even see what logic you're going with there?
After getting FMVP he's in the discussion. But after comparison of the rings.. he's nowhere close to Kobe. His first ring is won with Wade and Bosh, which is basically like Kobe's 1st ring with Shaq.

So before he worries about that, like OP says, he should worry about Hakeem first. That guy legitly took his unstacked team and own franchise to the championship twice.

[DaSeba5]

After the ridiculous number of choke jobs he had, I'm not convinced. He finally has one good playoffs and all the sudden he's god?

Only an idiot would buy into that. I'm looking at this reasonably, he still has a pretty good chance of not showing up once the going gets rough, especially now that they haven't encountered much resistance in the regular season.

I understand your account like Rip is to bash LeBron, but if you can't tell that LeBron is far more confident and mature after losing to Dallas in humiliating fashion in the Finals, IDK what to tell you. He's come a long away. He was phenomenal last year.

[Ne 1]

I see where you're coming from, it is premature to have him in the conversation with Jordan and even Kobe when right now he's in the tier of Moses, West and Oscar. But griff you know that rings aren't the sole criteria for where a player ranks on the all-time list. If it were then Russell would be by far and away the undisputed GOAT and nobody would ever argue that. Winning, peak/prime play, longevity etc. all come into account for most people, not just rings alone. But I can see if you personally value winning, in that case Russell is the GOAT. If you personally value peak play Kareem or Wilt is the GOAT. If you value both winning and peak play equally than Kareem and Jordan have the best cases.

This is how I have it by tiers:

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

[Joey3000]

trollllllll. Only people with FMVP enter the discussion. kthxbye

So as of right now he is Chauncey Billups level

[red1]

Um.. I dont even see what logic you're going with there?
After getting FMVP he's in the discussion. But after comparison of the rings.. he's nowhere close to Kobe. His first ring is won with Wade and Bosh, which is basically like Kobe's 1st ring with Shaq.

So before he worries about that, like OP says, he should worry about Hakeem first. That guy legitly took his unstacked team and own franchise to the championship twice.
Phong the ship has already sailed. This discussion is over. Lebron will retire as the better player and it doesnt matter how many hours of your life you spend talking shit online. Nothing will change that fact




http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv182/electr021/Joseph-Decreux-U-MAD-BRO.jpg

[dh144498]

Phong the ship has already sailed. This discussion is over. Lebron will retire as the better player and it doesnt matter how many hours of your life you spend talking shit online. Nothing will change that fact


no he won't LOL
:roll:
good humor.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Um.. I dont even see what logic you're going with there?
After getting FMVP he's in the discussion. But after comparison of the rings.. he's nowhere close to Kobe. His first ring is won with Wade and Bosh, which is basically like Kobe's 1st ring with Shaq.

But Derek Fisher also has 5 rings. Using FMVP(s), as you said, makes MORE sense. Assuming Miami wins another title this year, that would give Lebron 4 MVPs and 2 Final MVPs. That's more than enough to get into the top 10.

It's just unfortunate he'll have to boot someone (Kobe) outta the list, though.

[asdf1990]

4 MVPS+ 2FMVP >1 MVP( sympathy one)+ 2 FMVP ( 1 thanks to the refs) + 3 carried rings

[red1]

no he won't LOL
:roll:
good humor.
You are a fool if you cant see it.



http://strangebeaver.com/gallery/albums/uploads/memes/mad/U_MAD_obama.JPG

[ripthekik]

But Derek Fisher also has 5 rings. Using FMVP(s), as you said, makes MORE sense. Assuming Miami wins another title this year, that would give Lebron 4 MVPs and 2 Final MVPs. That's more than enough to get into the top 10.

It's just unfortunate he'll have to boot someone (Kobe) outta the list, though.
Um.. but you forgot the most important criteria there, RINGS?
I didn't know MVP was the end-all, because if so, even Nash should be pretty high up wouldn't he? :oldlol:

[DaSeba5]

The biggest problem with this thread is that the biggest LeBron haters are all here. Just need Pegasus in here, and it's complete. You can't have a good discussion with these people. They are only here to trash LeBron. Extremely biased and ignorant point of views.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Um.. but you forgot the most important criteria there, RINGS?
I didn't know MVP was the end-all, because if so, even Nash should be pretty high up wouldn't he? :oldlol:

I didn't forget dawg. Shaq carried Kobe to his first 3, remember? :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

I didn't forget dawg. Shaq carried Kobe to his first 3, remember? :confusedshrug:
So Kobe had 3 Shaq rings.
Lebron has 2 Wade+Bosh rings IF he wins this year.

So lebron needs to win another one with Wade+Bosh, then win 2 more rings leading his own team like Kobe did.

Do you think he can do that?
If he can, hats off to him, he's on Kobe's level.

[Ne 1]

His first ring is won with Wade and Bosh, which is basically like Kobe's 1st ring with Shaq.


Can't agree with you there. Kobe was a great player for his first ring with Shaq, top 10 in the league, probably the best SG in the NBA that year, he stepped up in huge moments and that was one of his peak defensive years, but he wasn't at the level LeBron was for his 1st ring, he averaged 30+ ppg in the playoffs on route to that championship, only 5 others players so far have done that.

[DaSeba5]

So Kobe had 3 Shaq rings.
Lebron has 2 Wade+Bosh rings IF he wins this year.

So lebron needs to win another one with Wade+Bosh, then win 2 more rings leading his own team like Kobe did.

Do you think he can do that?
If he can, hats off to him, he's on Kobe's level.

How is last year's ring on Wade and Bosh? Wade was on one knee, and Bosh was hurt the majority of the playoffs. Bosh was key in spreading the floor and playing great defense in the Finals against Ibaka and Perkins, but it's not like beasted on OKC. Wade was good in the Finals, but LeBron clearly had better stats.

Just look at the stats. LeBron was clutch, and he played terrific. He was clearly the Finals MVP last year. There's no doubt about that.

[bbp1aya]

More like Kobe and his 2 FMVPs, THEN worry about Shaq and his 3 FMVPs.

:lol :lol putting Kobe above Shaq

[All Net]

How is last year's ring on Wade and Bosh? Wade was on one knee, and Bosh was hurt the majority of the playoffs. Bosh was key in spreading the floor and playing great defense in the Finals against Ibaka and Perkins, but it's not like beasted on OKC. Wade was good in the Finals, but LeBron clearly had better stats.

Just look at the stats. LeBron was clutch, and he played terrific. He was clearly the Finals MVP last year. There's no doubt about that.

Indeed

Trying to convince somebody who hates Lebron with a passion is pointless. If Rings was all that mattered many wouldn't be putting Lebron above Kobe if Lebron wins his 2nd straight title..which will happen if he does win it all again.

fact is rings/Stats and how a guy wins is factored in...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq had 3 Finals MVPs playing alongside Kobe; Lebron has 1 going on 2 Finals MVPS w/ Bosh+Wade IF he wins this year.

So Lebron needs to win another Finals MVP to tie Kobe/kick him OUT of the top 10.

FTFY :cheers:

[ripthekik]

fact is rings/Stats and how a guy wins is factored in...

I agree, which is why teammates should also be heavily factored in. Hakeem for example, won 2 rings 2 FMVP with no other all star. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. That is something that shouldn't be ignored.

I know Lebron performed better than Wade and Bosh. But you can't ignore the fact that he won with 2 all stars in their primes. Their statistics went down because they adjusted, it doesn't mean they declined. No matter how you want to spin it.. he won with 2 all stars in their primes.

Taking that into consideration, I don't know how one can rank currently 1 FMVP 1 ring Lebron over 2 FMVP 2 Rings Hakeem.

[Mr. Incredible]

Haha haters really mad ITT.

LeBron will have 3 more MVPs than Kobe after this year. And if things go as planned, he'll have as many FMVPs as Kobe. Before you know it, he'll have just as many titles, if not more.

Just watch.

[pauk]

Sorry haters, thats just to much accolades and to much of a player to keep out of top 10........


i agree. and Hakeem actually won without a stacked team.. more respect to that man. to his franchise as well.

Actually, its factually Hakeem that won with a more "stacked" team when you consider that he had a much deeper team and better coaching, certainly Hakeems teammates combined produced more PTS/REBS/ASTS etc. than Lebrons teammates.... Wade/Bosh is just name value due to their past, they were no superstars at this stage, they certainly didnt play like it, especially not Bosh.... Lebron had technically only 2 all-stars, where only 1 was playing like an all-star in the playoffs and the rest of the players were actually worse than what Hakeem had to work with around him..... He carried those guys in the playoffs having one of the best playoff runs by a FMVP ever......... unfortunately...

Lebron will maybe/most likely get another Championship/FMVP

On top of that he has 3 more MVPs and so on than Hakeem.....

On top of that he was a much more dominant player than Hakeem, Lebron was/is the best player in the world for 4+ years..............

Certainly Lebron didnt either need Michael Jordan to go play baseball for 2 years to be called the best in the world and win a championship.... unlike Hakeem.........

I love Hakeem.... but he wont have a case especially after this season is done.... infact after this year it will be even stupid to disregard Lebron from the discussions/debates/arguments for being ranked over even guys like Kobe, Shaq, Duncan and Bird..........

[Djahjaga]

So Kobe had 3 Shaq rings.
Lebron has 2 Wade+Bosh rings IF he wins this year.

So lebron needs to win another one with Wade+Bosh, then win 2 more rings leading his own team like Kobe did.

Do you think he can do that?
If he can, hats off to him, he's on Kobe's level.

Wade + Bosh =/= Shaq.

And if you really think they do, then Lebron just carried prime Shaq to that ring last year, or did you miss the Indiana, Boston, and OKC series?

You can't have it both ways and say that you need a FMVP to enter the discussion, but then all rings count. It's either all rings or only rings for which you won the FMVP.

Lebron 1 FMVP
Bird/Olajuwon/Kobe 2 FMVP
Magic/Shaq/Duncan 3 FMVP
Jordan 6 FMVP

[All Net]

I agree, which is why teammates should also be heavily factored in. Hakeem for example, won 2 rings 2 FMVP with no other all star. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. That is something that shouldn't be ignored.I know Lebron performed better than Wade and Bosh. But you can't ignore the fact that he won with 2 all stars in their primes. Their statistics went down because they adjusted, it doesn't mean they declined. No matter how you want to spin it.. he won with 2 all stars in their primes.

Taking that into consideration, I don't know how one can rank currently 1 FMVP 1 ring Lebron over 2 FMVP 2 Rings Hakeem.

Indeed

which is why Hakeem is ranked higher than most because of that reason..Hakeem is in the 8-10 range by most people.

Who said Lebron right now is above Hakeem? most would agree Lebron needs another title, MVP to climb into the top 8-10...which is damn impressive since he is only 29 years old..

[DaSeba5]

I agree, which is why teammates should also be heavily factored in. Hakeem for example, won 2 rings 2 FMVP with no other all star. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. That is something that shouldn't be ignored.

I know Lebron performed better than Wade and Bosh. But you can't ignore the fact that he won with 2 all stars in their primes. Their statistics went down because they adjusted, it doesn't mean they declined. No matter how you want to spin it.. he won with 2 all stars in their primes.

Taking that into consideration, I don't know how one can rank currently 1 FMVP 1 ring Lebron over 2 FMVP 2 Rings Hakeem.

This would be a better argument if they won in 2011, and Wade was the Finals MVP. LeBron clearly carried the team last year. He had to bang with the Pacers and put up Wilt numbers to beat them. He had to play like a God against the Celtics in game 6 to avoid elimination. He won his ring in game 5 with a triple double. He was phenomenal in the postseason.

LeBron EARNED his ring last year, and was clearly the best player. Everyone needs good players to win titles, and that doesn't take anything away from LeBron.

[jlip]

A routine, predictable, and redundant troll thread has nearly 40 posts in less than an hour. :facepalm

[Djahjaga]

I agree, which is why teammates should also be heavily factored in. Hakeem for example, won 2 rings 2 FMVP with no other all star. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. That is something that shouldn't be ignored.

I know Lebron performed better than Wade and Bosh. But you can't ignore the fact that he won with 2 all stars in their primes. Their statistics went down because they adjusted, it doesn't mean they declined. No matter how you want to spin it.. he won with 2 all stars in their primes.

Taking that into consideration, I don't know how one can rank currently 1 FMVP 1 ring Lebron over 2 FMVP 2 Rings Hakeem.

Then what about Kobe playing with a top-10 player all time in his prime for his first three rings? He didn't even outperform him. Shaq's stats don't go down just because you want them to. By your logic these rings should have an asterisk on them, as well.

[arifgokcen]

Oh, let's also add Derek Fisher and his 5 championship rings, as well as Robert Horry and his 7 rings!

Oh! And Sam Jones & his 10 titles!!!

How about Bill Russell & his 11 rings?



:facepalm


A player's ring count should not be the deciding factor of his greatness. LeBron is clearly a top 10 talent skill-wise. Championships are more of a team accomplishment, though I would say a player's rings shouldn't be excluded when discussing the GOAT.
Whether he's great enough for top 5 nominations is something the basketball world will have to decide collectively once he retires.



And I know the cheap tactic of leaving Cleveland to play in a stacked Heat team is always going to put an asterisk next to however many rings he wins (whether it's just the one has now or ends up with 1+ more), but you still can't deny that LBJ has the skills to give all legends a run for their money.
/thread
+repped

[ripthekik]

This would be a better argument if they won in 2011, and Wade was the Finals MVP. LeBron clearly carried the team last year. He had to bang with the Pacers and put up Wilt numbers to beat them. He had to play like a God against the Celtics in game 6 to avoid elimination. He won his ring in game 5 with a triple double. He was phenomenal in the postseason.

LeBron EARNED his ring last year, and was clearly the best player. Everyone needs good players to win titles, and that doesn't take anything away from LeBron.
Yes, I've clearly said in my post, Lebron performed better than them. He was great. I'm giving you all of that. But beyond that, you start looking into what teammates he had, and the fact is that he had 2 all stars. That's printed in history.. that's something you can't erase. If this was a team 30 years ago, I can simply look up to see which teammates were all stars (if they had all stars back then).

Everyone needed good players, but you look into history.. not every team has 3 all stars to win the championship.

I'm just saying.. it's a factor that can't be ignored. It was a trap when Lebron went to Miami.. he just can't escape this.

I would be really glad to see Lebron lead Bosh OR Wade to the championship, and give him his props. I really do. The situation just doesn't let me.

[Ne 1]

Lebron 1 FMVP
Bird/Olajuwon/Kobe 2 FMVP
Magic/Shaq/Duncan 3 FMVP
Jordan 6 FMVP


Rings are rings. Nobody, except for morons with an agenda uses Finals MVPs as some arbitrary qualifier for if a players ring counts or not. Walk into the local sports bar tonight and ask people how many rings any all-time great player has: Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem etc. 6, 6, 11, 5, 3, 5, 4 and 2. Nobody except for a tiny fraction of elitist baksetball fans on ISH and similar websites obsess over a fictional category like "number of rings with Finals MVP"

No one penalizes Dr. J or Oscar for not winning MVP of the Finals for their rings. What about Magic/Kareem. What about cases where one player was better but had better stats in the Finals, like Pierce over Garnett in 2008 or Parker over Duncan in 2007? Look at Bird vs. Magic as an example. Magic is usually ranked ahead of Bird largely because he has 5 rings and Bird has 3. However, Magic was the undisputed best player on his team for only 2 of his championships. Yet all 5 "count" when comparing him to Bird? Heck, Kobe was closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980, but only 2 of Kobe's rings "count" (2009 and 2010), yet all 5 of Magic's "count"?

Why should it even matter? If one player was 40% responsible, another 30% responsible, and the other 10 players 30% responsible does that 10% really matter? I look at whether a player was indispensable. If you replaced a player with an above average player at his position would his team still win? If so, I give him less credit.

Why is Finals MVP so important anyway? It's an award based on 4-7 games and plenty of non-elite players have won it. KG was the best player on the '08 Celtics, their defensive anchor and was the best player in the playoffs and arguably the Finals too even though he did not win FMVP. The award didn't even exist until 1969, had it Bill Russell would have more than anyone.

Kareem was flat out robbed of the 1980 FMVP in favor of a popular, charismatic teammate and we are to act as if the award is legit? Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Cedric Maxell, Joe Dumars, and Chauncey Billups all have FMVP's. And as I said, even John freaking Starks came within one shot of winning a FMVP.

[j3lademaster]

I agree, which is why teammates should also be heavily factored in. Hakeem for example, won 2 rings 2 FMVP with no other all star. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. That is something that shouldn't be ignored.

I know Lebron performed better than Wade and Bosh. But you can't ignore the fact that he won with 2 all stars in their primes. Their statistics went down because they adjusted, it doesn't mean they declined. No matter how you want to spin it.. he won with 2 all stars in their primes.

Taking that into consideration, I don't know how one can rank currently 1 FMVP 1 ring Lebron over 2 FMVP 2 Rings Hakeem.Drexler for his 2nd ring

[red1]

Yes, I've clearly said in my post, Lebron performed better than them. He was great. I'm giving you all of that. But beyond that, you start looking into what teammates he had, and the fact is that he had 2 all stars. That's printed in history.. that's something you can't erase. If this was a team 30 years ago, I can simply look up to see which teammates were all stars (if they had all stars back then).

Everyone needed good players, but you look into history.. not every team has 3 all stars to win the championship.

I'm just saying.. it's a factor that can't be ignored. It was a trap when Lebron went to Miami.. he just can't escape this.

I would be really glad to see Lebron lead Bosh OR Wade to the championship, and give him his props. I really do. The situation just doesn't let me.
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002451449/1334750993_Y_u_mad_tho_xlarge.jpeg

[Simple Jack]

Um.. I dont even see what logic you're going with there?
After getting FMVP he's in the discussion. But after comparison of the rings.. he's nowhere close to Kobe. His first ring is won with Wade and Bosh, which is basically like Kobe's 1st ring with Shaq.

So before he worries about that, like OP says, he should worry about Hakeem first. That guy legitly took his unstacked team and own franchise to the championship twice.

How is that like Kobe's first ring with Shaq? Did LeBron miss 2 finals games (average 15 ppg on 37% fg for the series) and have Wade drop 38 16 for the finals?

[pauk]

By the end of this season if Lebron gets another MVP and most likely another FMVP/Championship it will look like this:


.......................................Lebron..... .......Hakeem.........
MVP.....................................4......... ...........1..............
FMVP...................................2.......... ..........2...............
Championships.......................2............. .......2...............
1st All-NBA............................7.................. ..6..............
1st All-Defensive....................5.................... 5...............
ROTY..................................Yes......... ........No..............
DPOY....................................0......... ..........2...............
All-Star.................................9............ ......12..............
All-Star MVP..........................2...................0 ...............
Olympic Gold..........................2................... 1...............

...and i dont even wanna touch the milestones/records and other awards (in which Lebron overall has the advantage of aswell)

Then you consider Lebron as an individual player, where he is overall more productive than Hakeem was and where Lebron was a more dominant player, he was the best player in the world for many more years and its still going on (Logically Hakeem wouldnt even be the best those 2 years and probably wouldnt even won any championship if Jordan didnt have a vacation).....

It will be impossible to try and disregard Lebron from your top 10 lists, you will be just disrespecting the game of basketball itself....


....and he is 28.......

[tazb]

So Lebron just needs one more FMVP to tie Kobe? Ouch!
:roll: :roll:

That backfire. Don't forget LeBron will have 3 more MVPs than Kobe so no discussion there.

[Nezty]

Or LeBron can just worry about LeBron. People always measure a player by rings and how many he won compared to another player.

[Sharmer]

Well what time has a realistic chance of beating the heat this year?

[Rubio2Gasol]

Worry about what?

He has a long way to go before the can reach Hakeem's peak level, Kobe's peak he may be able to reach.

[Solid Snake]

After the ridiculous number of choke jobs he had, I'm not convinced. He finally has one good playoffs and all the sudden he's god?

Only an idiot would buy into that. I'm looking at this reasonably, he still has a pretty good chance of not showing up once the going gets rough, especially now that they haven't encountered much resistance in the regular season.

Shut your ****ing disproportionate body up.

Work on your god damn traps you weakling. Two-handed rows, shrugs, and DEADLIFTS.

[gengiskhan]

first worry about hakeem and his 2 titles

definitely. Hakeem is Top 7-8 GOATs LOCKED! He OUT-DUELED LEGIT FINALISTS in EWING & SHAQ. Both were RUNNER-UP in Season MVP votings successively. Hakeem JUSTIFIED why he won season MVP over Ewing in 1994. He again BLASTED critics & voters for not giving him season MVP over D'Rob in 1995 by beating Runner-up MVP Shaq in the 1995 FInals.


then worry about bird and his 3 titles

Totally AGREED


then worry about shaq and his 3 titles

DISAGREE!. Shaq has 3 rings as DA MAN with DOMINANT FMVP performances since 1991-1993 MJ. LBJ aint DOMINATING the finals at all. He needs to get going.


then worry about kobe and his 2 titles

STRONGLY DISAGREE

Kobe has 2 rings as DA MAN! He only had 1 good FMVP performance in 2009.
Other 3 Kobe rings are COMPLETELY OVERSHADOWED by SHAQs dominance!
a reason why once LBJ wins 2nd FMVP with "MVP SWEEP" he'll move ahead of KOBE in ranking.

plain & simple. KOBE F'ed it up for himself by not 3-peating btw 2008 & 2010. That 2008 Loss despite being season MVP will really hurt kobe in long run.



then worry about jordan and his 6 titles

TOTALLY AGREED

[Nash]

If Lebron wins the title this year he'll be ahead of Kobe. As the 1st option, he'll be 2x time champion, 2x FMVP , 4x MVP and 4x final appearances.

Kobe as the man will be at 2 championships, 2 FMVP, 1 MVP and 3 final appearances.

Lebron never had the luck to play with the most dominant player in the league his younger years and get extra championships through Shaq. You can't compare Kobe's years with Shaq and that Laker team with Lebron's years in Cleveland without a player like Shaq. If Lebron had someone like Shaq and failed to get those championships then those 3 championships with Shaq could come into the equation. What if Jordan was drafted into a team with a superstar like Shaq, how many extra championships would he have? If Kobe was drafted into a team without Shaq he would not have those 5 rings he has today.

[Human Error]

first worry about hakeem and his 2 titles

then worry about bird and his 3 titles

then worry about shaq and his 4 titles

then worry about kobe and his 5 titles
















then worry about jordan and his 6 titles




am i right? enough already... lebron fans are skipping to the finish line. its sort of disrespectful
Robert Horry > Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher > John Stockton
Adam Morrison > Chris Mullin
Luc Longley > Patrick Ewing

[DatAsh]

If you personally value peak play Kareem or Wilt is the GOAT.


???



This is how I have it by tiers:

I like the tiered approach.

[comerb]

I love Hakeem, he's my favorite center. But no.

There are 3 guys that are above and beyond as far as domination and impact on the game go.

Jordan, Wilt, and Shaq (btw, I hate Shaq and I'm not a big fan of Wilt, but I can't deny they were ridiculous)

And Lebron is right below them, and given a 3-4 more years of this type of production... he'll be in that conversation.

[All Net]

If Lebron wins the title this year he'll be ahead of Kobe. As the 1st option, he'll be 2x time champion, 2x FMVP , 4x MVP and 4x final appearances.

Kobe as the man will be at 2 championships, 2 FMVP, 1 MVP and 3 final appearances.

Lebron never had the luck to play with the most dominant player in the league his younger years and get extra championships through Shaq. You can't compare Kobe's years with Shaq and that Laker team with Lebron's years in Cleveland without a player like Shaq. If Lebron had someone like Shaq and failed to get those championships then those 3 championships with Shaq could come into the equation. What if Jordan was drafted into a team with a superstar like Shaq, how many extra championships would he have? If Kobe was drafted into a team without Shaq he would not have those 5 rings he has today.

I think this will be the general feelings from most if lebrons wins MVP, title, finals MVP again..

[longtime lurker]

first worry about hakeem and his 2 titles

then worry about bird and his 3 titles

then worry about shaq and his 4 titles

then worry about kobe and his 5 titles
















then worry about jordan and his 6 titles




am i right? enough already... lebron fans are skipping to the finish line. its sort of disrespectful

SMH at this guy not putting Bill Russell Lord of the Rings :facepalm

[The Real JW]

I'd say the order goes more like this:

first worry about Duncan and his 4 titles
then worry about Kobe and his 5 titles
then worry about Hakeem and his 2 titles
then worry about Shaq and his 4 titles
then worry about Bird and his 3 titles
then worry about Russell and his 11 titles
then worry about Magic and his 5 titles
then worry about Kareem and his 6 titles
then worry about Wilt and his 2 titles
then finally worry about Jordan and his 6 titles

[alleykat]

I think we should all stop worrying about Kobe Jordan and James....

It seems like nobody watches or respects the game anymore, or any other players. People need to understand how the game is played in a fundamental team level first to truly appreciate how great these 3 are and what they do..

[Ne 1]

If Lebron wins the title this year he'll be ahead of Kobe. As the 1st option, he'll be 2x time champion, 2x FMVP , 4x MVP and 4x final appearances.

Kobe as the man will be at 2 championships, 2 FMVP, 1 MVP and 3 final appearances.

Lebron never had the luck to play with the most dominant player in the league his younger years and get extra championships through Shaq. You can't compare Kobe's years with Shaq and that Laker team with Lebron's years in Cleveland without a player like Shaq. If Lebron had someone like Shaq and failed to get those championships then those 3 championships with Shaq could come into the equation. What if Jordan was drafted into a team with a superstar like Shaq, how many extra championships would he have? If Kobe was drafted into a team without Shaq he would not have those 5 rings he has today.
Alright, then let's call a spade a spade. I don't see why we should diminish Kobe for winning with Shaq. Nobody diminishes Magic for winning with Kareem. But if you want to say Kobe piggy backed Shaq for 3 rings, let's also bring up that LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He then BEGGED for help to get a ring and moved to another top 3 superstar's franchise and city who had also already acquired another top 15-20 perennial All-Star/Top 5 PF in the league because the route to a ring and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been anywhere else. Hence why he said they would win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us."

btw for all this talk about "alphas" and #1 options" usually, when a guy is the undisputed alpha, he's the player taking the last shots, closing out games, being a go to guy when the game is on the line among many other things. For the Lakers, that was often Kobe Bryant. That isn't often examined... Kobe was generally "plan B" throughout the game as far as scoring goes. However in the 4th quarter, he often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" if Phil sat Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were riding the coattails of other players asked to take over so consistently? Plus, it's not like Kobe was a role player or a Tony Parker level 2nd option.
He was part of a one-two punch duo, and he averaged 21/5/4, 29/7/6, 27/6/5 in the playoffs in the playoffs while taking the last shots.

[lilgodfather1]

When the Heat win the title, and LeBron wins FMVP someone needs to go to this guys house and make sure he doesn't hang himself in his closet.

On the plus side at least OP would finally come out of the closet, even if it is in a black bag.

Seriously though, I do understand OP. You have a weird Kobe obsession. You saw Kobe, a young player with three titles, and you wanted to get on the bandwaggon before it became the "it" thing to do. You missed your chance with Jordan, and you didn't want to screw up being on the next possible GOAT bandwaggon, so in a momment of haste you made the choice to hop on the train. Unfortunately for you, you messed up and jumped too soon. If you'd waited a year or two you could have jumped on the next bandwaggon, and this one's already going faster than Kobe's ever could.

[Heavincent]

If Lebron wins the title this year he'll be ahead of Kobe. As the 1st option, he'll be 2x time champion, 2x FMVP , 4x MVP and 4x final appearances.

Kobe as the man will be at 2 championships, 2 FMVP, 1 MVP and 3 final appearances.

Lebron never had the luck to play with the most dominant player in the league his younger years and get extra championships through Shaq. You can't compare Kobe's years with Shaq and that Laker team with Lebron's years in Cleveland without a player like Shaq. If Lebron had someone like Shaq and failed to get those championships then those 3 championships with Shaq could come into the equation. What if Jordan was drafted into a team with a superstar like Shaq, how many extra championships would he have? If Kobe was drafted into a team without Shaq he would not have those 5 rings he has today.

:roll:

I always have a good laugh at your posts.

[longtime lurker]

I think we should all stop worrying about Kobe Jordan and James....

It seems like nobody watches or respects the game anymore, or any other players. People need to understand how the game is played in a fundamental team level first to truly appreciate how great these 3 are and what they do..

Amen. And it does a disservice to other players that were just as great or greater than these 3 guys. Lebron is great, but all this rush by people with agendas to push him past Kobe is pretty lame. There are lots of great players to be talked about other than just these 3.

[Kingwillball]

Bottom Line Lebron is better now than Kobe ever was and the ONLY argument Kobe stans have over Lebron is titles at this point.

[DatAsh]

Bottom Line Lebron is better now than Kobe ever was and the ONLY argument Kobe stans have over Lebron is titles at this point.

Longevity matters.

[Vragrant]

Oh, let's also add Derek Fisher and his 5 championship rings, as well as Robert Horry and his 7 rings!

Oh! And Sam Jones & his 10 titles!!!

How about Bill Russell & his 11 rings?



:facepalm




I've never understood this argument. Why compare a role players' titles to a that of a league MVP's? There roles are completely different on their respective teams. Honestly comparing Fisher and Horry's rings to Lebron is not a constructive comparison.

[chazzy]

I think this will be the general feelings from most if lebrons wins MVP, title, finals MVP again..
So let's just wipe away everything Kobe did pre-05 because of Shaq? He won 3 titles as an all star and 2 of them were as a superstar, top 3-5 player in the league while putting up numbers most 1st option title winners don't put up in the playoffs. Lebron stans are trying to completely erase the things Kobe was doing from 01-03 :oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

Bottom Line Lebron is better now than Kobe ever was and the ONLY argument Kobe stans have over Lebron is titles at this point.

Even that argument is about to end this June.

LBJ will have 2 x FMVP plus 2 MVP "sweeps" 2 yrs in a row.

clearly going ahead of Kobe's 2 rings as DA MAN!

[All Net]

So let's just wipe away everything Kobe did pre-05 because of Shaq? He won 3 titles as an all star and 2 of them were as a superstar, top 3-5 player in the league while putting up numbers most 1st option title winners don't put up in the playoffs. Lebron stans are trying to completely erase the things Kobe was doing from 01-03 :oldlol:

Not saying its completely right but it will likely be the case..

[dh144498]

ffs, Kobe is the co-GOAT/GOAT right now. If Lebron wins FMVP and MVP this year then he'll jump from 150 to 1?

:biggums: :sleeping :hammerhead:
:wtf:

[Lebron23]

When the Heat win the title, and LeBron wins FMVP someone needs to go to this guys house and make sure he doesn't hang himself in his closet.

On the plus side at least OP would finally come out of the closet, even if it is in a black bag.

Seriously though, I do understand OP. You have a weird Kobe obsession. You saw Kobe, a young player with three titles, and you wanted to get on the bandwaggon before it became the "it" thing to do. You missed your chance with Jordan, and you didn't want to screw up being on the next possible GOAT bandwaggon, so in a momment of haste you made the choice to hop on the train. Unfortunately for you, you messed up and jumped too soon. If you'd waited a year or two you could have jumped on the next bandwaggon, and this one's already going faster than Kobe's ever could.

+1

[Greg Oden 50]

Bottom Line Lebron is better now than Kobe ever was and the ONLY argument Kobe stans have over Lebron is titles at this point.

LeBron plays in a weak & soft era :banana:

[2010splash]

I can only assume this thread was made for comedic purposes. LeBron is well on his way to pass Kobe by far. 4 MVP's is significantly more impressive than 1. And it's not like Kobe was even the consensus #1 player that year unlike LeBron, who has indisputably deserved by a landslide every MVP he has won. In 2008, many could reasonably argue that Kobe was the 4th best player in the league during the regular season, behind LeBron, Wade and Paul.

And Hakeem? Please... LeBron passed him last year. 1 more title? Big whoop. LeBron will have 3 more MVP's after this year and the same number of rings/Finals MVPs. He's also just a flat out better player.

Only Jordan is greater than LeBron.

[nycjeff45]

dude made mo williams an all star, thats a big accomplishment man...

[MiseryCityTexas]

dude made mo williams an all star, thats a big accomplishment man...


Mo Williams ain't shit but a BJ Armstrong of today's generation.

[Simple Jack]

Mo Williams' all-star selection came after 2 injuries and LeBron constantly lobbying for it, no?

[All Net]

Amazing that Mo was an all-star but their record was a big reason for it.

[Nash]

So let's just wipe away everything Kobe did pre-05 because of Shaq? He won 3 titles as an all star and 2 of them were as a superstar, top 3-5 player in the league while putting up numbers most 1st option title winners don't put up in the playoffs. Lebron stans are trying to completely erase the things Kobe was doing from 01-03 :oldlol:
We're not erasing anything, Kobe should get all the credit in the world for winning those championships with Shaq. But when comparing him to Lebron, you can't bring in the years Kobe was lucky to have prime dominant Shaq on his team for 8 years. Lebron, Jordan or any of those other guys weren't privileged enough to get drafted into a team with the most dominant player in the world in it. It's not a fair comparison and its not that you can fault Lebron or Jordan for not having a center like Shaq for the 8 first years of their careers.

If Lebron or Jordan had the most dominant center in the world during their starting years then they could be compared to Kobe, but since they didn't you just can't.

How many rings would Jordan have if he had a player like Shaq on his team his first years? How many rings would Lebron have if he had Shaq during all those years he was alone in Cleveland? How many rings would Kobe have today if he was drafted into a below .500 team without Shaq? You think he would have had 3 extra rings by now?

And this is exactly why I compared their years when they both were the #1 option.

[ripthekik]

We're not erasing anything, Kobe should get all the credit in the world for winning those championships with Shaq. But when comparing him to Lebron, you can't bring in the years Kobe was lucky to have prime dominant Shaq on his team for 8 years. Lebron, Jordan or any of those other guys weren't privileged enough to get drafted into a team with the most dominant player in the world in it. It's not a fair comparison and its not that you can fault Lebron or Jordan for not having a center like Shaq for the 8 first years of their careers.

If Lebron or Jordan had the most dominant center in the world during their starting years then they could be compared to Kobe, but since they didn't you just can't.

How many rings would Jordan have if he had a player like Shaq on his team his first years? How many rings would Lebron have if he had Shaq during all those years he was alone in Cleveland? How many rings would Kobe have today if he was drafted into a below .500 team without Shaq? You think he would have had 3 extra rings by now?

And this is exactly why I compared their years when they both were the #1 option.
So you say not to penalize Lebron for having a bad team.. but now you penalize Kobe for having Shaq? :oldlol:

Deal with it bro. Their career is how it is. You play with the cards you're dealt. 5 rings > 1 rings.

We ain't talking about any IF's here. Go do it in your dream. We only talking about facts. 5 rings > 1 ring.

[Rysio]

this era is the weakest in nba history. 1 ring should not be counted the same as it did a few years ago or decades ago. how you gonna count 3 superstars on 1 team wining it all a real ring when there is less then 5 superstars in the league.

[Just2McFly]

Whenever I debate various topics about Jordan, people tell me that he was being declared the greatest of all time before the second three peat. If that was true, then this whole topic is a double standard. Just like Jordan, Lebron is playing at a level that is simply amazing.

[The Choken One]

5/7 > 1/3

when LeBron finally gets over the 50% mark (if he ever even does, we can re-open this discussion).

[All Net]

At this stage obviously Kobe will win the ring battle seeing as he is 34 compared to Lebron's 29...

[gengiskhan]

2/4 < 2/4 after June/2013 (2 x MVP SWEEPS)

Kobe is 2/4 as DA MAN (he CHOKED away 2004 & 2008) GTFO!


corrected for fakkit FULL RETARD!

[red1]

So you say not to penalize Lebron for having a bad team.. but now you penalize Kobe for having Shaq? :oldlol:

Deal with it bro. Their career is how it is. You play with the cards you're dealt. 5 rings > 1 rings.

We ain't talking about any IF's here. Go do it in your dream. We only talking about facts. 5 rings > 1 ring.
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/c1c/cdb/3d8/resized/shaq-and-kobe-meme-generator-i-guess-you-can-say-this-isn-t-the-first-time-i-carried-you-a54963.jpg

[Nash]

So you say not to penalize Lebron for having a bad team.. but now you penalize Kobe for having Shaq? :oldlol:

Deal with it bro. Their career is how it is. You play with the cards you're dealt. 5 rings > 1 rings.

We ain't talking about any IF's here. Go do it in your dream. We only talking about facts. 5 rings > 1 ring.
Facts are that Kobe had the most dominant force in the league for 8 years, Lebron and Jordan didn't. We're trying to do a fair judgement and Kobe having prime Shaq for 8 years isn't exactly an even playing field with what Lebron and Jordan had. Kobe would NOT have 5 rings today if he went to Charlotte instead of Lakers with Shaq.

If Miami win 3 more championships and Wade is the 2nd option behind the most dominant player in the world, would you still say 5 rings is 5 rings therefore Kobe and Wade are equal or would you consider the fact that Wade was lucky to have the most dominant player in the world on his team for 4 of those championships and that other factors come into play when comparing 2 players?

Dude, you just can't throw around the rings argument as definite proof when comparing 2 players.

[The Choken One]

Half the page ain't showing up cause genghisretard... can only imagine the garbage he's posting.

[ripthekik]

Facts are that Kobe had the most dominant force in the league for 8 years, Lebron and Jordan didn't. We're trying to do a fair judgement and Kobe having prime Shaq for 8 years isn't exactly an even playing field with what Lebron and Jordan had. Kobe would NOT have 5 rings today if he went to Charlotte instead of Lakers with Shaq.

If Miami win 3 more championships and Wade is the 2nd option behind the most dominant player in the world, would you still say 5 rings is 5 rings therefore Kobe and Wade are equal or would you consider the fact that Wade was lucky to have the most dominant player in the world on his team for 4 of those championships and that other factors come into play when comparing 2 players?

Dude, you just can't throw around the rings argument as definite proof when comparing 2 players.
Lazy to read all your BS, just prove this line to me. Prove how something would not have happen? You can't.. I could say he would have went crazy and got those rings too. So it's pointless to talk about If's. Quit it. You don't know and can't predict what didn't happen. We could do so much what If's and it'll never end. It's just stupid.

Facts are facts, history is history, we deal with what we have. 5 rings as a major contributor > 1 ring. That's all there is to it.

[red1]

Facts are that Kobe had the most dominant force in the league for 8 years, Lebron and Jordan didn't. We're trying to do a fair judgement and Kobe having prime Shaq for 8 years isn't exactly an even playing field with what Lebron and Jordan had. Kobe would NOT have 5 rings today if he went to Charlotte instead of Lakers with Kobe.

If Miami win 3 more championships and Wade is the 2nd option behind the most dominant player in the world, would you still say 5 rings is 5 rings therefore Kobe and Wade are equal or would you consider the fact that Wade was lucky to have the most dominant player in the world on his team and that other factors come into play when comparing 2 players?

Dude, you just can't throw around the rings argument as definite proof when comparing 2 players.
Ripthekik never hesitates to talk shit but at the same time he is unable to understand the fact that his god has been in the league for 17 years and has only managed to win 2 fmvps and 1mvp. That really isnt all that impressive mang.

[LBJFTW]

In what world would LeBron ever surpass Jordan? He could finish with 8 rings and it still wouldn't mean much as he took the easiest route by winning on a stacked team. You can try to down play it all you want, it that's all anyone will remember it as.

[red1]

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/-horry2-637549.jpg

[All Net]

In what world would LeBron ever surpass Jordan? He could finish with 8 rings and it still wouldn't mean much as he took the easiest route by winning on a stacked team. You can try to down play it all you want, it that's all anyone will remember it as.

Please, if Lebron won 8 rings with amazing stats he would certainly go down as the best ever...

[JerryWest]

http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/-horry2-637549.jpg
:roll:

[ripthekik]

Ripthekik never hesitates to talk shit but at the same time he is unable to understand the fact that his god has been in the league for 17 years and has only managed to win 2 fmvps and 1mvp. That reallys isnt all that impressive mang.
He's been in the league 17 seasons with 5 rings, 2 fmvps, and 1 mvp.

Name me 3 guys from the last 2 decades that has a more impressive resume than this. red1, no one gives a shiit about your raptors, you've becoming a pic-posting-nothing-to-say worthless poster, so i'm not likely to respond to you anymore.

[gengiskhan]

Facts are facts, history is history, we deal with what we have. 1 rings as a major contributor > 1 ring. That's all there is to it.

1 ring as a MAJOR contributor
3 rings riding shaq's ding dong.
1 rings gifted to him by BIG MEN COMBO (6/24 in game 7 @ HOME) :lol

[LBJFTW]

Please, if Lebron won 8 rings with amazing stats he would certainly go down as the best ever...

Wait, so being on a stacked team where you can do more because the opposition has to many good players to focus on and cannot play their standard defensive sets (resulting in amazing stats for said player on stacked team) all of a sudden holds weight?

[JellyBean]

first worry about hakeem and his 2 titles

then worry about bird and his 3 titles

then worry about shaq and his 4 titles

then worry about kobe and his 5 titles
















then worry about jordan and his 6 titles




am i right? enough already... lebron fans are skipping to the finish line. its sort of disrespectful


Very well said. Let this young superstar work his way up the stairs before worrying about the GOAT. I am just glad that he won that title last year. Lebron seems at peace with everything now. Folks (the critics) were clowning on him for not winning one. Now they will clown on him if he doesn't win multiple titles. I am just glad that he won that 1st one and he will win more.

[Nash]

Lazy to read all your BS, just prove this line to me. Prove how something would not have happen? You can't.. I could say he would have went crazy and got those rings too. So it's pointless to talk about If's. Quit it. You don't know and can't predict what didn't happen. We could do so much what If's and it'll never end. It's just stupid.

Facts are facts, history is history, we deal with what we have. 5 rings as a major contributor > 1 ring. That's all there is to it.
Exactly, I can't predict what would have happened and therefore we can't penalize Lebron and Jordan for not having someone like prime Shaq on their team the first 8 years in the league. That's why I'm comparing their years as 1st option.

Answer these questions, do you think Wade and Kobe would be equal if Wade won 3 more rings as 2nd option behind the most dominant player in the league in Lebron, just like Kobe did with Shaq? Would Kobe and Jordan be equal if Kobe won one more ring even though Jordan was the biggest factor in 6 of them while Kobe only 3? That's why rings are a bad comparison when comparing two players. I could even argue that FMVP's and regular season MVP's are a better measuring stick than championships as 2nd option when comparing two players individually.

[red1]

He's been in the league 17 seasons with 5 rings, 2 fmvps, and 1 mvp.

Name me 3 guys from the last 2 decades that has a more impressive resume than this. red1, no one gives a shiit about your raptors, you've becoming a pic-posting-nothing-to-say worthless poster, so i'm not likely to respond to you anymore.
LOL why are you so hurt? Listen rip, all your posts are lame and agenda-driven but when I laugh at how delusional you are you suddenly become a butt-hurt hypocrite. All you ever do is jockride kobe and post about lebron which is funny since anyone with a brain can see who the better player is at this point. You can cling to your 5 rings all you want but just realize that it is all a waste of time.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6s0fu9fsJ1rpga6zo1_400.jpg

[ripthekik]

1. do you think Wade and Kobe would be equal if Wade won 3 more rings as 2nd option behind the most dominant player in the league in Lebron, just like Kobe did with Shaq?

2. Would Kobe and Jordan be equal if Kobe won one more ring even though Jordan was the biggest factor in 6 of them while Kobe only 3?

3. That's why rings are a bad comparison when comparing two players. I could even argue that FMVP's and regular season MVP's are a better measuring stick than championships as 2nd option when comparing two players individually.
1. Yes, I would have no problem with that if he won 3 more rings while contributing heavily. However, you forgot the fact that he doesn't have the other NBA accolades to match up. By that I mean, All-NBA teams, defensive teams, MVP, longevity.

2. Nope, Jordan is better.

3. It's not as bad as you make it, as long as we factor out the correct factors. Kobe won his first 3, not as FMVP but he was still a major contributor. Those Lakers team were Shaq and Kobe, no one else. But, I'll still give you that. Kobe didn't win it as the FMVP. Factor that in.

Since I'm willing to factor that in, why wouldn't you factor in the fact that Bron won with 2 all stars in their primes? We have to take everything into consideration, don't we? The fact that he's in a weak east also?

And after that... Lebron's 1 ring just isn't up to par with Kobe's 5, no matter how you look at it. Yes, even already taking into consideration Kobe had Shaq.

[LBJFTW]

Why are we comparing "great" players that can't even average better than 20 points, 10 assists, on 50% or better shooting for the season.:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

So let's just wipe away everything Kobe did pre-05 because of Shaq? He won 3 titles as an all star and 2 of them were as a superstar, top 3-5 player in the league while putting up numbers most 1st option title winners don't put up in the playoffs. Lebron stans are trying to completely erase the things Kobe was doing from 01-03 :oldlol:

Of course not.

But I think the point is that the accolades for Lebron would start reaching the Kobe level with another MVP, title, and finals MVP.

You then factor that in with the notion (at least in my opinion) that Lebron is doing things on the court that Kobe never did...so that matters.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it is clear to me that Lebron is simply a better basketball player than Kobe. So when you start talking about 4 mvps, 2 titles, 2 finals mvps and better numbers....vs 1 mvp, 5 titles, 2 finals mvps...

I think the tie breaker should go to which player is actually better...and I think that is clearly Lebron (assuming the above happens)...but if he were to choke or play awful or something...that would be factored in.

But assuming he does something like 28/8/7 again in the playoffs and leads the Heat to the title...I honestly don't see much of an argument for Kobe

But I don't think the Heat are nearly a lock to win the title...so lets see how this all plays out.

[sixerfan82]

i agree. and Hakeem actually won without a stacked team.. more respect to that man. to his franchise as well.
Clyde drexler and a few of the best outside shooters in the league isnt stacked?

[kennethgriffin]

this is basically what lebron fans sound like


"if lebron can do this and that. he will pass kobe bryants career from 2008-2010"

:roll:

:applause:

losers

lol@ lebron trying to catch up to a 3 year span of kobe

[Ne 1]

.............


Is Wilt Chamberlain better than Bill Russell? It's certainly debatable, but some people value winning (the MAIN objective of the game)




But assuming he does something like 28/8/7 again in the playoffs and leads the Heat to the title...I honestly don't see much of an argument for Kobe

Kobe's won rings putting up 29/7/6 27/6/5 30/5/6 and 29/6/6 in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

[2010splash]

You Kobe fans are simply reaching. Kobe has never been the consensus best player in the league. When he won his only MVP, the popular belief among many was that it was a lifetime achievement award and that individually he was an inferior player to LeBron (whose stats were much better). From 2009-2010, he was individually inferior to both LeBron and Wade (both had much better stats) and the only thing separating him from those two was his championship supporting cast, while LeBron and Wade were surrounded by crap.

By contrast, LeBron has blown away his peers every year he's won MVP. There has never been a debate. Not to mention that Kobe's rings from 2000-2002, while impressive, are obviously something LeBron could have easily replicated if he had a superstar center next to him. Put LeBron with prime Shaq and they probably 5-peat.

Kobe fans just need to stop reaching to try to make their favorite player seem better than he really is. He is a great player, one of the all-time best, but he's never been as good as LeBron. Never had an all-time memorable playoff performance or a Finals as good as LeBron 2012.

[DMAVS41]

Is Wilt Chamberlain better than Bill Russell? It's certainly debatable, but some people value winning (the MAIN objective of the game)




Kobe's won rings putting up 29/7/6 27/6/5 30/5/6 and 29/6/6 in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

I'm giving you my opinion. Which is why I said I can't speak for anyone else.

Did I say Kobe hasn't put up great numbers while winning a ring? That would not be the deciding factor for me at all. You misunderstood. It would be about Lebron sweeping everything again while playing great.

I'll make it simple for you; (these are my opinions...not stating these as facts...other than the stats)

Lebron is statistically a better player. Lebron is more versatile on both ends. Lebron is a better defender. Lebron is a better teammate.

So that point was simple. Once the accolades start to become pretty even...I am going to rank the player who I think is better higher. And I think 4 mvps, 2 titles, and 2 fmvps is about even with 1 mvp, 5 titles, 2 finals mvps.

So if I think Lebron is the better player and the accolades are similar (not even mentioning that Lebron wasted a good portion of his career early on without quality help or coaching....I come to the conclusion that Lebron is the better player and deserves to be ranked higher.

Not by a large amount or something. I'd still rank Duncan higher than Lebron if Lebron sweeps again this year.

[All Net]

Of course not.

But I think the point is that the accolades for Lebron would start reaching the Kobe level with another MVP, title, and finals MVP.

You then factor that in with the notion (at least in my opinion) that Lebron is doing things on the court that Kobe never did...so that matters.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it is clear to me that Lebron is simply a better basketball player than Kobe. So when you start talking about 4 mvps, 2 titles, 2 finals mvps and better numbers....vs 1 mvp, 5 titles, 2 finals mvps...

I think the tie breaker should go to which player is actually better...and I think that is clearly Lebron (assuming the above happens)...but if he were to choke or play awful or something...that would be factored in.

But assuming he does something like 28/8/7 again in the playoffs and leads the Heat to the title...I honestly don't see much of an argument for Kobe

But I don't think the Heat are nearly a lock to win the title...so lets see how this all plays out.

Honestly thats all we can do...it's kind of getting pointless going back and forth. Certainly when it comes to the Kobe and Lebron haters not willing to see both sides to the argument...no matter what is said one or the other will refuse to think otherwise to their argument.

[Heavincent]

this is basically what lebron fans sound like


"if lebron can do this and that. he will pass kobe bryants career from 2008-2010"

:roll:

:applause:

losers

lol@ lebron trying to catch up to a 3 year span of kobe

That's a pretty good point actually. Lebron stans are only considering what Kobe did between 08-10 and completely ignoring the other 13 years of greatness. It's flawed logic to say the least.

[Ne 1]

I can't predict what would have happened and therefore we can't penalize Lebron for not having someone like prime Shaq on their team the first 8 years in the league.

Alright, fair enough. If you want to discus hypothetical situations, how about we put peak 27-29 year old Kobe Bryant on a team with 2 superstars + great shooters + good defenders in the JV league conference. How many "rings as the man" does he win? He sure as hell would win more than 2.

[All Net]

Alright, fair enough. If you want to discus hypothetical situations, how about we put peak 27-29 year old Kobe Bryant on a team with 2 superstars + great shooters + good defenders in the JV league conference. How many "rings as the man" does he win? He sure as hell would win more than 2.

Maybe but we don't know how many Lebron will win with this core either...think 3-4 is very possible.

[DatAsh]

Whenever I debate various topics about Jordan, people tell me that he was being declared the greatest of all time before the second three peat. If that was true, then this whole topic is a double standard. Just like Jordan, Lebron is playing at a level that is simply amazing.

A lot of those talks actually started before the first three peat, after the 1992 finals.

[DatAsh]

Certainly when it comes to the Kobe and Lebron haters not willing to see both sides to the argument...no matter what is said one or the other will refuse to think otherwise to their argument.

Yep.

A lot of these guys are so blinded by bias that there's no such thing as changing their mind.

[Ne 1]

Maybe but we don't know how many Lebron will win with this core either...think 3-4 is very possible.

I was just talking about this 3 year span so far he's been with the Heat in his peak years (26-28 years old). The best he can come away with is 2 rings because of him going into Casper The Friendly Ghost mode against Dallas in the Finals. Put Kobe during his peak years around the same age LeBron is now. Kobe could very possibly win 4-5 with their core when he was the same age (2006-2010) LeBron was/is/will be with Miami. He won back-to-back championships and went to 3 straight Finals with Gasol/Odom.

[DatAsh]

He won back-to-back championships and went to 3 straight Finals with Gasol/Odom.

That was a somewhat different league though, which seems strange seeing as how it was just a few years ago. I can't see those Laker teams winning in today's league.

[ripthekik]

That was a somewhat different league though, which seems strange seeing as how it was just a few years ago. I can't see those Laker teams winning in today's league.
Other than the stacked Heat, today's league is EASIER than it was then. That team would make the finals in this year's West.

[ripthekik]

That's a pretty good point actually. Lebron stans are only considering what Kobe did between 08-10 and completely ignoring the other 13 years of greatness. It's flawed logic to say the least.
Yeap. Oh Lebron had a bad front office, let's ignore that. Oh Kobe had Shaq, let's ignore that. Let's only focus on the years where Lebron got his stacked team.

:wtf:

It doesn't work that way Lebron fans. We take their entire career into consideration. There is no omitting. None.

[Leviathon1121]

this is basically what lebron fans sound like


"if lebron can do this and that. he will pass kobe bryants career from 2008-2010"

:roll:

:applause:

losers

lol@ lebron trying to catch up to a 3 year span of kobe

Whats funny is that the Kobe stans like yourself have been using what if's for about 10 years now to get Kobe closer to Jordan. Annoying isn't it?

[All Net]

I was just talking about this 3 year span so far he's been with the Heat in his peak years (26-28 years old). The best he can come away with is 2 rings because of him going into Casper The Friendly Ghost mode against Dallas in the Finals. Put Kobe during his peak years around the same age LeBron is now. Kobe could very possibly win 4-5 with their core when he was the same age (2006-2010) LeBron was/is/will be with Miami. He won back-to-back championships and went to 3 straight Finals with Gasol/Odom.

I doubt it, certainly not 4-5...Kobe has had some nightmare runs too like Lebron but like Lebron has had some epic series as well...It's foolish to think Kobe would win more...why would he? Kobe has been bashed for the way he plays too certainly with his shot selection.

[DMAVS41]

I was just talking about this 3 year span so far he's been with the Heat in his peak years (26-28 years old). The best he can come away with is 2 rings because of him going into Casper The Friendly Ghost mode against Dallas in the Finals. Put Kobe during his peak years around the same age LeBron is now. Kobe could very possibly win 4-5 with their core when he was the same age (2006-2010) LeBron was/is/will be with Miami. He won back-to-back championships and went to 3 straight Finals with Gasol/Odom.

This is a slippery slope.

Lebron came closer to beating the Celtics in 08 than Kobe did. And Kobe had a far better team and coach around him that year. Would current Lebron (the one you are talking about as you say) be enough to beat the Celtics in 08? I think it would actually be likely. So your argument kind of goes up in smoke based on that alone.

[DatAsh]

Other than the stacked Heat, today's league is EASIER than it was then. That team would make the finals in this year's West.

It's definitely not easier. Teams are a lot my more loaded at the top end than they were in 2009 or 2010.

The current Clippers, Thunder, and Spurs are quite a bit more stacked than any of the teams the Lakers faced in getting to the finals those years.

The East is weaker than it was then, but the West is considerably stronger.

[The Choken One]

Whats funny is that the Kobe stans like yourself have been using what if's for about 10 years now to get Kobe closer to Jordan. Annoying isn't it?
Have they? Because last time I checked, MJ himself said there's only 1 who deserves comparisons to himself. Says a lot little boy.

Kobe is much better than you people realize, but most LeBron stans started watching the NBA in the last 2 or 3 years ( probably you included ). So, you wouldn't understand how good Kobe was when at his athletic prime. Realize Kobe is 34 years old and is still easily the best SG in the league and again easily a top 5 player. Kobe is one of a kind. Appreciate greatness, chump.

[All Net]

It's definitely not easier. Teams are a lot my more loaded at the top end than they were in 2009 or 2010.

The current Clippers, Thunder, and Spurs are quite a bit more stacked than any of the teams the Lakers faced in getting to the finals those years.

The East is weaker than it was then, but the West is considerably stronger.

I would agree, I'm not sure that conference finals Nuggets team beats any of those teams you mentioned. Maybe Clips.

[DMAVS41]

It's definitely not easier. Teams are a lot my more loaded at the top end than they were in 2009 or 2010.

The current Clippers, Thunder, and Spurs are quite a bit more stacked than any of the teams the Lakers faced in getting to the finals those years.

The East is weaker than it was then, but the West is considerably stronger.

Yea.

The Lakers lost in 08 to the Celtics.

In 09 they had to beat the Nuggets and Magic? Sorry...that just isn't nearly as tough as going through the Thunder or Spurs in the finals this year. The East is easier of course though.

In 10 they beat a really good Celtics team though...have to give them credit for that. Don't think that Celtics team was better than current Thunder or Spurs though.

[DMAVS41]

Have they? Because last time I checked, MJ himself said there's only 1 who deserves comparisons to himself. Says a lot little boy.

Kobe is much better than you people realize, but most LeBron stans started watching the NBA in the last 2 or 3 years ( probably you included ). So, you wouldn't understand how good Kobe was when at his athletic prime. Realize Kobe is 34 years old and is still easily the best SG in the league and again easily a top 5 player. Kobe is one of a kind. Appreciate greatness, chump.

He is not easily the best sg in the league and this has roughly been the case since the 05 season.

It is Wade that is much better than people realize. Kobe gets more than enough credit for what he's done.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe fans' entire life revolves around Lebron. Has for nearly a decade. Sad. :oldlol:

[Kingwillball]

Have they? Because last time I checked, MJ himself said there's only 1 who deserves comparisons to himself. Says a lot little boy.

Kobe is much better than you people realize, but most LeBron stans started watching the NBA in the last 2 or 3 years ( probably you included ). So, you wouldn't understand how good Kobe was when at his athletic prime. Realize Kobe is 34 years old and is still easily the best SG in the league and again easily a top 5 player. Kobe is one of a kind. Appreciate greatness, chump.

Umm Jordan was one of a kind Kobe is a bootleg Jordan aka poor mans MJ.. Lebron with his size strength and unique Skills is truely one of a kind. Lebron is a combo of MJ, oscar, Bird, Magic rolled into one.

[Ne 1]

I doubt it, certainly not 4-5...Kobe has had some nightmare runs too like Lebron but like Lebron has had some epic series as well...It's foolish to think Kobe would win more...why would he? Kobe has been bashed for the way he plays too certainly with his shot selection.
Bottom line is the same age LeBron is right now at his peak in Miami, peak Kobe at the same ages as LeBron would also win "rings as the man." It's irrevleacant anyway, rings are rings and Kobe proved he can win without Shaq, maybe we should hold LeBron to the same standard and say he should have to prove he can win without Wade. LeBron has also been bashed for the way he's played being too passive, post up game, not being able to play off of the ball and being a beta when the game is on the line.

[DMAVS41]

Bottom line is the same age LeBron is right now at his peak in Miami, peak Kobe at the same ages as LeBron would also win "rings as the man." It's irrevleacant anyway, rings are rings and Kobe proved he can win without Shaq, maybe we should hold LeBron to the same standard and say he should have to prove he can win without Wade. LeBron has also been bashed for the way he's played being too passive, post up game, not being able to play off of the ball and being a beta when the game is on the line.

I want to know if you think current Lebron would have been enough to get the Cavs to beat the Celtics in 08.

[All Net]

Bottom line is the same age LeBron is right now at his peak in Miami, peak Kobe at the same ages as LeBron would also win "rings as the man." It's irrevleacant anyway, rings are rings and Kobe proved he can win without Shaq, maybe we should hold LeBron to the same standard and say he should have to prove he can win without Wade. LeBron has also been bashed for the way he's played being too passive, post up game, not being able to play off of the ball and being a beta when the game is on the line.

Stupid logic...Shaq was a dominant force and the clear best in the game while Lebron has been better than Wade for a long time and led Miami to the team as the man.

So no It's not the same at all...and this is coming from a huge Kobe fan. Kobe proved he could win without Shaq which was great but it's stupid to mention Wade like he was the man in Miami last year...He had good help from Wade like Shaq got good help from Kobe to win...

[DMAVS41]

Stupid logic...Shaq was a dominant force and the clear best in the game while Lebron has been better than Wade for a long time and led Miami to the team as the man.

So no It's not the same at all...and this is coming from a huge Kobe fan. Kobe proved he could win without Shaq which was great but it's stupid to mention Wade like he was the man in Miami last year...He had good help from Wade like Shaq got good help from Kobe to win...

This. And another difference is that Shaq could literally have not been replaced by another player at that time in my opinion.

The Heat could still win with Wade being replaced by a number of other players. Hell, he was on one leg half of the playoffs and they were missing Bosh throughout the playoffs and they still won.

Do people forget that Bosh played only 14 games and was a shell of his normal self when he did?

[Heavincent]

Lebron came closer to beating the Celtics in 08 than Kobe did.

Yeah, so? The freaking Hawks pushed them to 7 games too. Losing is losing.

Not to mention that Kobe probably played better aganst Boston than Lebron did that year. Lebron shot 36% (shot a combined 8/42 in games 1 and 2 :oldlol:) while Kobe shot 41%. I would't really blame either of them though because the Celtics were just flat out better than both the Lakers and Cavs.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, so? The freaking Hawks pushed them to 7 games too. Losing is losing.

Not to mention that Kobe probably played better aganst Boston than Lebron did that year. Lebron shot 36% (shot a combined 8/42 in games 1 and 2 :oldlol:) while Kobe shot 41%. I would't really blame either of them though because the Celtics were just flat out better than both the Lakers and Cavs.

Interesting. So it seems as if winning is more about the team and less about the superstar and how they play.

So what is the point arguing about ring count again then?

[RRR3]

Have they? Because last time I checked, MJ himself said there's only 1 who deserves comparisons to himself. Says a lot little boy.

Kobe is much better than you people realize, but most LeBron stans started watching the NBA in the last 2 or 3 years ( probably you included ). So, you wouldn't understand how good Kobe was when at his athletic prime. Realize Kobe is 34 years old and is still easily the best SG in the league and again easily a top 5 player. Kobe is one of a kind. Appreciate greatness, chump.
You yourself said LeBron was a better player :confusedshrug:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253725&page=9

[The Real JW]

he was on one leg half of the playoffs and they were missing Bosh throughout the playoffs

I agree that Bosh underperformed in the games that he did play (low scoring, although he grabbed some rebounds), but I don't get why people are so eager to diminish Wade's performance.

2012 Playoff Averages

Wade: 22.8 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 3 TOV, 46.2% FG on 39.4 MPG
Bosh: 14.0 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 1.4 TOV, 49.3% FG on 31.4 MPG

[DMAVS41]

I agree that Bosh underperformed in the games that he did play (low scoring, although he grabbed some rebounds), but I don't get why people are so eager to diminish Wade's performance.

2012 Playoff Averages

Wade: 22.8 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 1.3 BPG, 3 TOV, 46.2% FG on 39.4 MPG
Bosh: 14.0 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 1.4 TOV, 49.3% FG on 31.4 MPG

Wade played well...he just wasn't on the top of his game. And that comes in response to people saying Lebron needs to prove he can win without Wade...comparing Wade to Shaq...which is just laughable.

My point was simple. Bosh was hurt and underperformed and Wade wasn't playing his best ball.

[Heavincent]

Interesting. So it seems as if winning is more about the team and less about the superstar and how they play.

So what is the point arguing about ring count again then?

Kobe has won more than any current player (sorry, Fisher doesn't count as he's only in the NBA because Scott Brooks has a man crush on him), so I'd say that his ring count should at least be factored in. It's not just the rings, it's how well he played in those seasons. He was a top 10 player in 00, a top 3-5 player in 01 and 02, and a top 2 player in 09 and 10. Sorry if I think it's stupid to just ignore all of that.

[ripthekik]

Stats don't tell the story about Wade. He plays with Lebron, who dominated the ball so much, it's no wonder Wade and Bosh's numbers would drop.

Did yall forgot this guy also dropped 41 points and 10 rebounds against the Pacers?
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=320524011

[DMAVS41]

Kobe has won more than any current player (sorry, Fisher doesn't count as he's only in the NBA because Scott Brooks has a man crush on him), so I'd say that his ring count should at least be factored in. It's not just the rings, it's how well he played in those seasons. He was a top 10 player in 00, a top 3-5 player in 01 and 02, and a top 2 player in 09 and 10. Sorry if I think it's stupid to just ignore all of that.

I don't think it should be ignored, but you just got done saying that team strength is more important than how a player plays for winning rings.

You have Dirk going 9-27 and winning the game. Kobe going 6-24 and winning the game. I could go on and on.

Just seems to me that the luck of having quality teammates and coaching is what leads to winning more than anything else for elite players.

So situations and circumstances should be heavily factored in. Yes, Kobe has won the most....but he's also quite substantially had the best help and coaching of this era. 8 years with prime Shaq. And then legit championship rosters pretty much ever since 07. So he's essentially had what? Like 3 years of his 14 year career in which he didn't have either a championship level roster or close to it around him?

Sorry, I think it's stupid to ignore that.

[Heavincent]

I don't think it should be ignored, but you just got done saying that team strength is more important than how a player plays for winning rings.

You have Dirk going 9-27 and winning the game. Kobe going 6-24 and winning the game. I could go on and on.

Just seems to me that the luck of having quality teammates and coaching is what leads to winning more than anything else for elite players.

So situations and circumstances should be heavily factored in. Yes, Kobe has won the most....but he's also quite substantially had the best help and coaching of this era. 8 years with prime Shaq. And then legit championship rosters pretty much ever since 07. So he's essentially had what? Like 3 years of his 14 year career in which he didn't have either a championship level roster or close to it around him?

Sorry, I think it's stupid to ignore that.

So you need good teammates and coaching to win championships? Yeah, well no shit. I never said otherwise. Kobe's had good teammates and has made the most of it. He's probably had about 8 or 9 legit chances at the championship, and has won it 5 times.

All I'm saying is that's it's laughable how some people in this thread are acting like 08-10 were the only good years of Kobe's career while conveniently ignoring his other 3 rings as an elite player. Not to mention his insane longevity.

[Leviathon1121]

Have they? Because last time I checked, MJ himself said there's only 1 who deserves comparisons to himself. Says a lot little boy.

Kobe is much better than you people realize, but most LeBron stans started watching the NBA in the last 2 or 3 years ( probably you included ). So, you wouldn't understand how good Kobe was when at his athletic prime. Realize Kobe is 34 years old and is still easily the best SG in the league and again easily a top 5 player. Kobe is one of a kind. Appreciate greatness, chump.

Yes, they have actually, where have you been?

[DMAVS41]

So you need good teammates and coaching to win championships? Yeah, well no shit. I never said otherwise. Kobe's had good teammates and has made the most of it. He's probably had about 8 or 9 legit chances at the championship, and has won it 5 times.

All I'm saying is that's it's laughable how some people in this thread are acting like 08-10 were the only good years of Kobe's career while conveniently ignoring his other 3 rings as an elite player. Not to mention his insane longevity.

That is fine and I would never disregard his early years.

But he's had enough help to win a title more than 9 times in his career. He had the help early on, Kobe just wasn't good enough. The Lakers won 56 games Kobe's rookie year and were definitely a championship caliber supporting cast.

Obviously as a rookie and young player out of high school, he shouldn't be harshly judged for that, but in a comparison to Lebron...Lebron was so much better early on in his career and would have definitely had a better chance to win early on.

Kobe's first 8 years he had legit championship help. He just wasn't good enough his first 3 years to really do anything with it. He then had legit championship help from 08 to 10. That already takes the total to 11. And if you say that he hasn't had it the last 3 years...then it would call into question how much help he really needs.

So at minimum he's had 11 years of his career with legit championship help.

Lebron...even if you count 09 and 10...which I think would be absurd. This would be year 5 of having championship level help.

So again. What is the point of comparing ring counts between such different circumstances for winning? At the least...Kobe has had over twice the amount of years in which he had championship level help.

[Heavincent]

That is fine and I would never disregard his early years.

But he's had enough help to win a title more than 9 times in his career. He had the help early on, Kobe just wasn't good enough. The Lakers won 56 games Kobe's rookie year and were definitely a championship caliber supporting cast.

Obviously as a rookie and young player out of high school, he shouldn't be harshly judged for that, but in a comparison to Lebron...Lebron was so much better early on in his career and would have definitely had a better chance to win early on.

Kobe's first 8 years he had legit championship help. He just wasn't good enough his first 3 years to really do anything with it. He then had legit championship help from 08 to 10. That already takes the total to 11. And if you say that he hasn't had it the last 3 years...then it would call into question how much help he really needs.

So at minimum he's had 11 years of his career with legit championship help.

Lebron...even if you count 09 and 10...which I think would be absurd. This would be year 5 of having championship level help.

So again. What is the point of comparing ring counts between such different circumstances for winning? At the least...Kobe has had over twice the amount of years in which he had championship level help.

Since Kobe became a superstar, I'd say he's had about 8 or 9 legit chances at a championship.

99-00
00-01
01-02
02-03 (although that team was crap outside of Kobe and Shaq)
03-04
07-08
08-09
09-10

The Lakers didn't stand a chance these past 2 years. Kobe was playing on one knee for most of 2011 and Pau shit the bed in the playoffs. Last year they had no depth what so ever and Pau shit the bed again in the playoffs. There were at least 3 teams last year that were easily way more talented and better coached than the Lakers.

[DMAVS41]

Since Kobe became a superstar, I'd say he's had about 8 or 9 legit chances at a championship.

99-00
00-01
01-02
02-03 (although that team was crap outside of Kobe and Shaq)
03-04
07-08
08-09
09-10

The Lakers didn't stand a chance these past 2 years. Kobe was playing on one knee for most of 2011 and Pau shit the bed in the playoffs. Last year they had no depth what so ever and Pau shit the bed again in the playoffs. There were at least 3 teams last year that were easily way more talented and better coached than the Lakers.

Using that standard, then this would be Lebron's 3rd year with legit championship help.

So again. What is the point of comparing ring count between two players in which one of them has had 3 times as many chances to win?

[Heavincent]

So again. What is the point of comparing ring count between two players in which one of them has had 3 times as many chances to win?

When did I do that?

[ripthekik]

Using that standard, then this would be Lebron's 3rd year with legit championship help.

So again. What is the point of comparing ring count between two players in which one of them has had 3 times as many chances to win?
What?? what is this comparing how many years they have legit championship help..

deal with it, it's part of the game, they also form part of the team. You play the cards you're dealt. It's a balance. Kobe had a better team, but he also only played 22 minutes and had to come off the bench. Lebron got to play 38 minutes and had 7 years to work with to find a contending team.

with this comparing "only championship help years".. there are many players that never had it their entire careers. Some only had it for 1 year and they won. Are we supposed to judge that player extremely high then? what do we do about players that never got the help?

People need to stop making it so confusing. 5 rings as a major contributor > 1 ring.

[DMAVS41]

What?? what is this comparing how many years they have legit championship help..

deal with it, it's part of the game, they also form part of the team. You play the cards you're dealt. It's a balance. Kobe had a better team, but he also only played 22 minutes and had to come off the bench. Lebron got to play 38 minutes and had 7 years to work with to find a contending team.

with this comparing "only championship help years".. there are many players that never had it their entire careers. Some only had it for 1 year and they won. Are we supposed to judge that player extremely high then? what do we do about players that never got the help?

People need to stop making it so confusing. 5 rings as a major contributor > 1 ring.

What more should Lebron have done in Cleveland to get help? You are really going to put the lack of championship help on a player? That is a joke.

And the reason Kobe played less is because he wasn't nearly as good. If you think year 2 Kobe could have put up 27/7/7 shooting 47% from the field...then you are ****ing insane.

This whole notion that players are to blame for the help and coaching they got is just nonsense. It is almost entirely luck...except when a player can choose where they play. Which is exactly what Lebron did. He gave the Cavs 7 years to get it done...and they failed miserably...honestly they couldn't have done a worse job surrounding a once in a generation player with help. So Lebron took it into his own hands and went to play somewhere he knew he would finally get the kind of help all the other great players that have won more than 2 title have gotten.

Again. Kobe fans must realize that young Kobe was nowhere near as good as Lebron. 2nd year Lebron was doing things that it took Kobe until year 5 to do. And it wasn't about playing time. It was about how good he actually was.

[The Choken One]

Umm Jordan was one of a kind Kobe is a bootleg Jordan aka poor mans MJ.. Lebron with his size strength and unique Skills is truely one of a kind. Lebron is a combo of MJ, oscar, Bird, Magic rolled into one.
He isn't MJ or Bird. At all. :facepalm

LeBron is a poor man's Magic & a taller version of Oscar. But on the real, who even brought up LeBron? Are you that insecure to have to post about him and defend him in every thread? Might wanna try removing his dick for your mouth, little boy.

[DMAVS41]

When did I do that?

Not saying you did.

Just wondering what the point is if we both agree one player has had 3 times as many chances to win. And most of those came with said player being the 2nd best player on those championship teams.

It's about as apples to oranges as it gets.

[ripthekik]

Again. Kobe fans must realize that young Kobe was nowhere near as good as Lebron. 2nd year Lebron was doing things that it took Kobe until year 5 to do. And it wasn't about playing time. It was about how good he actually was.
And that's exactly why Kobe was drafted into a decent team, and Lebron was drafted into a worse team. So it's all fair. Fair for comparison too, what they did with their teams after that.

[DMAVS41]

And that's exactly why Kobe was drafted into a decent team, and Lebron was drafted into a worse team. So it's all fair. Fair for comparison too, what they did with their teams after that.

What? So essentially you are saying it is better to be worse so you have a better chance to win?

What kind of non sense is this? Lebron could have been drafted into the Cavs just the same...and then had the luck to find out that they traded for prime Shaq as well. No difference at all actually. Just "LUCK"....

I want to know. How should Lebron have gotten better players to the Cavs? They couldn't even freaking keep Carlos Boozer....LOL

[longtime lurker]

Stats don't tell the story about Wade. He plays with Lebron, who dominated the ball so much, it's no wonder Wade and Bosh's numbers would drop.

Did yall forgot this guy also dropped 41 points and 10 rebounds against the Pacers?
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=320524011

Of course they forgot. It makes it harder to further their agendas if they disregard the big games Wade had.

[ripthekik]

What? So essentially you are saying it is better to be worse so you have a better chance to win?

What kind of non sense is this? Lebron could have been drafted into the Cavs just the same...and then had the luck to find out that they traded for prime Shaq as well. No difference at all actually. Just "LUCK"....

I want to know. How should Lebron have gotten better players to the Cavs? They couldn't even freaking keep Carlos Boozer....LOL
It's not better to be worse. It's just fair because you have to work harder to win and contribute.

How? Money. All those years, if you have money, you can throw it at least to another all star. It's sad none worked out with lebron, but hey, he had the same chances as every other team in the league.

[DMAVS41]

It's not better to be worse. It's just fair because you have to work harder to win and contribute.

How? Money. All those years, if you have money, you can throw it at least to another all star. It's sad none worked out with lebron, but hey, he had the same chances as every other team in the league.

This doesn't make sense. No, Lebron did not have the same chances to win titles as other players. His franchise failed to surround him with the required amount of help because he got drafted to a historically bad team that can't draw big name players.

There have been like only a handful of franchises to win the NBA title in the last 30 years for a reason.

If you don't think it's a huge advantage to be drafted by the Lakers over the Cavs...then you are just too dense or too biased to even have a discussion.

You can't confuse a player with a franchise.

[ripthekik]

This doesn't make sense. No, Lebron did not have the same chances to win titles as other players. His franchise failed to surround him with the required amount of help because he got drafted to a historically bad team that can't draw big name players.

There have been like only a handful of franchises to win the NBA title in the last 30 years for a reason.

If you don't think it's a huge advantage to be drafted by the Lakers over the Cavs...then you are just too dense or too biased to even have a discussion.

You can't confuse a player with a franchise.
Like I said, it sucks that it didn't work out. But they had the same amount of money to throw at free agents for those 7,8 years. If they had been smart, and threw another big contract out.. you think they won't even be able to sign one star?

Don't make it an excuse.. yes, it was the FO's fault, but hey.. every player in the NBA deals with this. That's why everyone is comparable.

Otherwise, we might as well do 0 comparisons, because everyone has a different situation.

[DMAVS41]

Like I said, it sucks that it didn't work out. But they had the same amount of money to throw at free agents for those 7,8 years. If they had been smart, and threw another big contract out.. you think they won't even be able to sign one star?

Don't make it an excuse.. yes, it was the FO's fault, but hey.. every player in the NBA deals with this. That's why everyone is comparable.

Otherwise, we might as well do 0 comparisons, because everyone has a different situation.

I'm sorry, but I could not think of a dumber way to compare players. To ignore the circumstances in which they play...LOL

Please don't respond. I won't waste my time on your response.

[ripthekik]

I'm sorry, but I could not think of a dumber way to compare players. To ignore the circumstances in which they play...LOL

Please don't respond. I won't waste my time on your response.
Ok.

Let's not compare Lebron because he was drafted to a useless Cavs FO.
Let's not compare Irving because he was also drafted to a useless Cavs FO.
Let's not compare Iverson because he never had a legit 2nd star.
Let's not compare Jordan because he retired for 2 seasons.
Let's not compare Hakeem because he only won while Jordan was out.
Let's not compare Durant, because he got lucky with Westbrook.
Let's not compare Duncan, because Spurs got lucky with Parker and Ginobili.

??? How about just stfu with the excuses?

[Heavincent]

Not saying you did.

Just wondering what the point is if we both agree one player has had 3 times as many chances to win. And most of those came with said player being the 2nd best player on those championship teams.

It's about as apples to oranges as it gets.

The point is that when Kobe has a chance to win it all, he gets it done more often than not. That's all. I don't see how anything I've said in this thread could even be debated.

[DatAsh]

That is fine and I would never disregard his early years.

But he's had enough help to win a title more than 9 times in his career. He had the help early on, Kobe just wasn't good enough. The Lakers won 56 games Kobe's rookie year and were definitely a championship caliber supporting cast.

Obviously as a rookie and young player out of high school, he shouldn't be harshly judged for that, but in a comparison to Lebron...Lebron was so much better early on in his career and would have definitely had a better chance to win early on.

Kobe's first 8 years he had legit championship help. He just wasn't good enough his first 3 years to really do anything with it. He then had legit championship help from 08 to 10. That already takes the total to 11. And if you say that he hasn't had it the last 3 years...then it would call into question how much help he really needs.

So at minimum he's had 11 years of his career with legit championship help.

Lebron...even if you count 09 and 10...which I think would be absurd. This would be year 5 of having championship level help.

So again. What is the point of comparing ring counts between such different circumstances for winning? At the least...Kobe has had over twice the amount of years in which he had championship level help.

Usually I disagree with your anti-ring, pro-stat judgement, but this is a great post.

You may not agree with me on this, but I'll say it anyway. When comparing two all times greats against each other, team success, relative to opportunity, should be the most important factor.

[DMAVS41]

The point is that when Kobe has a chance to win it all, he gets it done more often than not. That's all. I don't see how anything I've said in this thread could even be debated.

You claim he's won 5 out of the 9 chances he's had. I don't that would be considered most of the time. And you are cutting off some years in which many would disagree.

And I'm saying it is way too early to compare these guys on rings because of the limited chances Lebron has had based on your criteria. This would be Lebron's 3rd chance.

So let's wait and see what happens...

[DMAVS41]

Usually I disagree with your anti-ring, pro-stat judgement, but this is a great post.

You may not agree with me on this, but I'll say it anyway. When comparing two all times greats against each other, team success, relative to opportunity, should be the most important factor.

Sure...as long as there is some common ground about the "opportunity"...

Because in this very thread I'm hearing that the 11 Lakers weren't championship caliber. Yet if you gave a player like Lebron that same cast with Phil Jackson coaching...no way in hell are people say that. Hell, they were ragging on Lebron for not winning in 09 and 10...when he had much less help.

What kind of opportunity did the 11 Mavs provide Dirk? Certainly it's one of the weaker championship rosters of the last 30 years. People rail on Dirk for not winning in 06, but look at that roster compared to other championship rosters...etc.

So I like that notion, but that definition of "opportunity" seems like it might get in the way with people thinking so differently.

For example, I thought the 07 Mavs were nothing special. Thought they just played harder than everyone else all year. But other people might think the exact opposite and reference the 67 wins etc...

So that would be my only fear with that...and I would want to mainly go by the historical criteria of having 2 or more all nba type players that is usually needed to win.

Let me explain that a bit better I hope. Take the 11 Mavs. The only reason you could say Dirk had the "opportunity" to win that year...was because they won. Nobody, and I mean nobody, gave the Mavs a chance to even make the finals that year...and once they got there, everyone had the Heat...and rightfully so of course. The other team simply had more talent, the best player in the game, and maybe the 3rd best player in Wade that year.

So does that constitute a legit opportunity to win because they won? Or does it not because people thought they were 50/50 to beat the Blazers in the first round...and again, rightfully so based on their talent.

And if that team is a legit "opportunity"...then you have to do the same with all the other teams with 1 superstar that nobody gave a chance to win.

[DatAsh]

So I like that notion, but that definition of "opportunity" seems like it might get in the way with people thinking so differently.


People's definition of opportunity will change from player to player based on there personal biases.

[DMAVS41]

People's definition of opportunity will change from player to player based on there personal biases.

Exactly.

And I'm not anti ring. I'm anti-- using rings as so a big measure of individual greatness and ranking players.

People that weren't alive don't remember, but nobody was saying..."MJ's great, but let's talk when he wins 5 rings to equal Magic"...and then we'll talk when he gets to double digits and then we can compare him with Russell"

No, people looked at it and said he might be the GOAT after his first title because of how he played while winning.

It was not until this era in which ring counting became such a big deal. Hell, we saw MJ reference it recently. Why? In my opinion, it's because he knows everyone agrees he's better than Kobe and always will be...but he sees Lebron more as a threat so he needs to bring up ring count...because that is where he has the biggest edge on Lebron. When you start to really talk about impact...I still go with MJ, but Lebron (the way he has been playing these last 2 years) is getting really really close to that impact.

[All Net]

Exactly.

And I'm not anti ring. I'm anti-- using rings as so a big measure of individual greatness and ranking players.

People that weren't alive don't remember, but nobody was saying..."MJ's great, but let's talk when he wins 5 rings to equal Magic"...and then we'll talk when he gets to double digits and then we can compare him with Russell"

No, people looked at it and said he might be the GOAT after his first title because of how he played while winning.

It was not until this era in which ring counting became such a big deal. Hell, we saw MJ reference it recently. Why? In my opinion, it's because he knows everyone agrees he's better than Kobe and always will be...but he sees Lebron more as a threat so he needs to bring up ring count...because that is where he has the biggest edge on Lebron. When you start to really talk about impact...I still go with MJ, but Lebron (the way he has been playing these last 2 years) is getting really really close to that impact.

I would agree with that.. Rings do matter but they aren't the deciding factor. It's level of play as well.

[Ne 1]

Stupid logic...Shaq was a dominant force and the clear best in the game while Lebron has been better than Wade for a long time and led Miami to the team as the man.

So no It's not the same at all...and this is coming from a huge Kobe fan. Kobe proved he could win without Shaq which was great but it's stupid to mention Wade like he was the man in Miami last year...He had good help from Wade like Shaq got good help from Kobe to win...
No, its not a stupid logic. Nobody penalizes Magic for winning with Kareem, why penalize Kobe for winning with Shaq? Nobody wins without help. Kobe without Shaq = 2 rings and 3 Finals, Shaq without Kobe = 1 ring and 2 Finals. They both won without each other, so its not relevant who needed who. The 3-peat Lakers weren't very talented outside of Shaq and Kobe and they relied heavily on both of them to win so they both deserve a huge amount of credit for winning 3 straight titles. Yes LeBron was the best player in Miami's lock out season championship last year but when he colluded to join forces with Wade, Wade was regarded as a top 3 player right there with Kobe and LeBron and some regarded Wade as the best player in '09. He quit on his team vs Boston and then went to Miami to play with 2 other superstars because he knew the road to a ring and multiple rings there would be astronomically easier than playing anywhere else, hence why he said it would be easy and they would win 8 rings.

[NumberSix]

No, its not a stupid logic. Nobody penalizes Magic for winning with Kareem, why penalize Kobe for winning with Shaq? Nobody wins without help. Kobe without Shaq = 2 rings and 3 Finals, Shaq without Kobe = 1 ring and 2 Finals. They both won without each other, so its not relevant who needed who. The 3-peat Lakers weren't very talented outside of Shaq and Kobe and they relied heavily on both of them to win so they both deserve a huge amount of credit for winning 3 straight titles. Yes LeBron was the best player in Miami's lock out season championship last year but when he colluded to join forces with Wade, Wade was regarded as a top 3 player right there with Kobe and LeBron and some regarded Wade as the best player in '09. He quit on his team vs Boston and then went to Miami to play with 2 other superstars because he knew the road to a ring and multiple rings there would be astronomically easier than playing anywhere else, hence why he said it would be easy and they would win 8 rings.
The difference is that Kobe didn't win WITH help. Kobe WAS the help.

[All Net]

No, its not a stupid logic. Nobody penalizes Magic for winning with Kareem, why penalize Kobe for winning with Shaq? Nobody wins without help. Kobe without Shaq = 2 rings and 3 Finals, Shaq without Kobe = 1 ring and 2 Finals. They both won without each other, so its not relevant who needed who. The 3-peat Lakers weren't very talented outside of Shaq and Kobe and they relied heavily on both of them to win so they both deserve a huge amount of credit for winning 3 straight titles. Yes LeBron was the best player in Miami's lock out season championship last year but when he colluded to join forces with Wade, Wade was regarded as a top 3 player right there with Kobe and LeBron and some regarded Wade as the best player in '09. He quit on his team vs Boston and then went to Miami to play with 2 other superstars because he knew the road to a ring and multiple rings there would be astronomically easier than playing anywhere else, hence why he said it would be easy and they would win 8 rings.

Who's penalising Kobe? I was replying to your point about comparing shaq to wade.. It's not close to being the same.

Kobe was huge in the title runs but was never the best player.. He was obviously great but in winning last year Lebron was the clear best player.. That was the point.

You mention Lebron quit on his team? More like the franchise did.. Kobe was about to as you put it quit on his team too before Mitch brought in Pau.. He wanted out!! Unless moves were made and luckily there was...

[pauk]

Exactly.

And I'm not anti ring. I'm anti-- using rings as so a big measure of individual greatness and ranking players.

People that weren't alive don't remember, but nobody was saying..."MJ's great, but let's talk when he wins 5 rings to equal Magic"...and then we'll talk when he gets to double digits and then we can compare him with Russell"

No, people looked at it and said he might be the GOAT after his first title because of how he played while winning.

It was not until this era in which ring counting became such a big deal. Hell, we saw MJ reference it recently. Why? In my opinion, it's because he knows everyone agrees he's better than Kobe and always will be...but he sees Lebron more as a threat so he needs to bring up ring count...because that is where he has the biggest edge on Lebron. When you start to really talk about impact...I still go with MJ, but Lebron (the way he has been playing these last 2 years) is getting really really close to that impact.

:applause:

[MMM]

surprisingly some good points in this thread

I agreed with the tiered concept on the earlier pages


First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

Dmavs also made some strong points and I like his opportunity idea. Finally I want to say it is easy to forget how good Kobe was in his first 3 peat. Sometimes due to the trolling nature of this site you get caught up in a distorted view of things actually happened.

[Ne 1]

The difference is that Kobe didn't win WITH help. Kobe WAS the help.

Nope. It was far more of a two headed monster in L.A. than it was just Shaq and his little side-kick Robin aka Kobe Bryant. They were a two punch duo and near Co-MVPs in 2001 and 2002 and Bryant's production back then was better than some championship teams "first options."

The consensus during these years was that Shaq was the best player in the NBA, but if you try using that to discredit Kobe then you also have to remember that the consensus was that Kobe was the second best player in the league starting around the 2001 playoffs. The gap was much larger in 2000, but Kobe was still a top 10 player and the best shooting guard in the league. Not to mention that was one of his peak defensive seasons and he stepped up in some huge moments. The 3-peat Lakers were not a typical championship team, because there was no 3rd All-Star caliber player, or even really a 3rd scoring option save for 2000 with an aging Glen Rice in that role putting up 12/4/2 on 41% shooting in the playoffs. This left plenty of room for Kobe to play his game and produce like a first option himself with Derek Fisher or Rick Fox as the closest thing the team had to a 3rd option in 2001 and 2002. Neither were scoring options. The offense went through Shaq first, but Kobe didn't have to take a backseat like Wade has the last 2 seasons because there's no Chris Bosh, much less a Ray Allen now as well, and because Kobe was improving, not declining like Wade.

[kennethgriffin]

kobe = 2001

28ppg season, 29ppg playoffs

shaq = 2001

28ppg season, 29ppg playoffs

his overall 3 peat stats are 25/5/5



lol@ help

kobe had the higher defensive team rankings aswell, main play maker, main ball handler, main clutch player




he was co-leader... the lakers real finals was in the west when kobe was dominating... shaq won finals mvp against garbage east teams. there was no competition, no tight games, mostly blow outs. and in those types of games shaq always gets fed the ball more since there is no worry about him going to the line with a good lead. when things were tight in the west. shaq rarely saw the ball down the stretch

[Ne 1]

Who's penalising Kobe?

Kobe detractors always do, they say only 2 of his 5 rings "count" because he played with Shaq for the first 3.

People are hypocritical about this and there's a huge double standard for counting rings. Wilt is considered to have 2 rings even though West was better for 1. Look at Bird vs. Magic as an example. Magic is usually ranked ahead of Bird largely because he has 5 rings and Bird has 3. However, Magic was the undisputed best player on his team for only 2 of his championships. Yet all 5 "count" when comparing him to Bird? Heck, Kobe was actually closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980, but only 2 of Kobe's rings "count" (2009 and 2010), yet all 5 of Magic's "count"? . How about Dr. J and Oscar? Same thing. One ring, not the best player-no problemo!

I know someone will inevitably cry "Robert Horry!" or "Derek Fisher". Are you seriously comparing Horry's or Fisher's role to Kobe's? I propose a different standard: the indispensable player standard. Kobe, Dr. J, Pippen and Oscar--as well as players like Shaq, Kareem, and Magic at times were not the best players on their teams but without them they could not win. Fishers 9 ppg in the playoffs on the 3-peat Lakers or Horry's 8 ppg and 6 ppg on the Lakers/Spurs championship teams were replaceable by journeyman players.

"Rings as the man" is not always clear. Why should it even matter? If one player was 40% responsible, another 30% responsible, and the other 10 players 30% responsible does that 10% really matter? I look at whether a player was indispensable. If you replaced a player with an above average player at his position would his team still win? If so, I give him less credit.


I was replying to your point about comparing shaq to wade..not close to being the same.

I'm not comparing Wade to Shaq. That wasn't my point to compare them as players.



He was obviously great but in winning last year Lebron was the clear best player.. That was the point

Except Kobe was closer to Shaq than Wade is to LeBron right now, especially '01 and '02.


You mention Lebron quit on his team? More like the franchise did.. Kobe was about to as you put it quit on his team too before Mitch brought in Pau.. He wanted out!! Unless moves were made and luckily there was...

LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010.

Kobe was never going to leave the Lakers IMO. He was just pressuring the front office to bring in talent. He did what he did and got Gasol after Bynum got injured. Dude's "temper tantrum" turned the organization around in a matter of months. Perhaps if guys would quit sitting on their hands wanting the public and the media to like them they'd get shit done.

Anyway Kobe has played every game of his career with one team and even Magic Johnson asked for a trade once. Why should Kobe should be punished because the Lakers refused to honor his wishes and instead tried to build a better team? Kobe never said "swing a Gasol deal" he said "trade me to bummy Chicago to play with Ben Gordon"

But yes, Kobe did bitch and he asked for a trade. However I doubt he was ever going to leave, I think it's obvious he was trying to spark a fire under management to bring in pieces, but let's say he legit was going to go to the Chicago Bulls with Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich. That's not nearly the same as colluding to join forces with two other superstars all in your prime.

Kobe wasn't asking to be traded to a team with a superstar who he'd essentially be competing otherwise and measured against. Kobe didn't ask to be traded to Duncan's Spurs, KG's T-Wolves, Nash's Suns, Wade's Heat, LeBron's Cavs or Dirk's Mavs.

[Rubio2Gasol]

No educated viewer of basketball would term Kobe "help". In 2000 that's probably what he was, though the game 7 in Portland still resonates in my mind as a particular reason why even then that's not what you'd consider him. But at the end of the day he was the same level of a Wade or a Pippen there.

In 01 and 02 though? He was a top 3 player in the league and for me personally..better than Duncan for those two playoff runs. He could outperform Shaq any given series. That alone says enough about the level of performance

[The Choken One]

No educated viewer of basketball would term Kobe "help". In 2000 that's probably what he was, though the game 7 in Portland still resonates in my mind as a particular reason why even then that's not what you'd consider him. But at the end of the day he was the same level of a Wade or a Pippen there.

In 01 and 02 though? He was a top 3 player in the league and for me personally..better than Duncan for those two playoff runs. He could outperform Shaq any given series. That alone says enough about the level of performance
You can't use reason with people like NumberSix. They're just too far gone. No amount of logic is able to break through their homer shields.

[ThaRegul8r]

Wilt is considered to have 2 rings even though West was better for 1.

West had by far his worst postseason the year the Lakers finally won, so you don't know what you're talking about.

[knicksman]

Nope. It was far more of a two headed monster in L.A. than it was just Shaq and his little side-kick Robin aka Kobe Bryant. They were a two punch duo and near Co-MVPs in 2001 and 2002 and Bryant's production back then was better than some championship teams "first options."

The consensus during these years was that Shaq was the best player in the NBA, but if you try using that to discredit Kobe then you also have to remember that the consensus was that Kobe was the second best player in the league starting around the 2001 playoffs. The gap was much larger in 2000, but Kobe was still a top 10 player and the best shooting guard in the league. Not to mention that was one of his peak defensive seasons and he stepped up in some huge moments. The 3-peat Lakers were not a typical championship team, because there was no 3rd All-Star caliber player, or even really a 3rd scoring option save for 2000 with an aging Glen Rice in that role putting up 12/4/2 on 41% shooting in the playoffs. This left plenty of room for Kobe to play his game and produce like a first option himself with Derek Fisher or Rick Fox as the closest thing the team had to a 3rd option in 2001 and 2002. Neither were scoring options. The offense went through Shaq first, but Kobe didn't have to take a backseat like Wade has the last 2 seasons because there's no Chris Bosh, much less a Ray Allen now as well, and because Kobe was improving, not declining like Wade.

LOL we all knew shaq doesnt need kobe as he is capable of winning with him as just the 6th man. Thats why kobe needed to be selfish to be known as equal to shaq.

[knicksman]

kobe = 2001

28ppg season, 29ppg playoffs

shaq = 2001

28ppg season, 29ppg playoffs

his overall 3 peat stats are 25/5/5



lol@ help

kobe had the higher defensive team rankings aswell, main play maker, main ball handler, main clutch player




he was co-leader... the lakers real finals was in the west when kobe was dominating... shaq won finals mvp against garbage east teams. there was no competition, no tight games, mostly blow outs. and in those types of games shaq always gets fed the ball more since there is no worry about him going to the line with a good lead. when things were tight in the west. shaq rarely saw the ball down the stretch

shaq won with 6th man kobe.. enough said

[DMAVS41]

Kobe detractors always do, they say only 2 of his 5 rings "count" because he played with Shaq for the first 3.

People are hypocritical about this and there's a huge double standard for counting rings. Wilt is considered to have 2 rings even though West was better for 1. Look at Bird vs. Magic as an example. Magic is usually ranked ahead of Bird largely because he has 5 rings and Bird has 3. However, Magic was the undisputed best player on his team for only 2 of his championships. Yet all 5 "count" when comparing him to Bird? Heck, Kobe was actually closer to Shaq in 2001 and 2002 than Magic was to Kareem in 1980, but only 2 of Kobe's rings "count" (2009 and 2010), yet all 5 of Magic's "count"? . How about Dr. J and Oscar? Same thing. One ring, not the best player-no problemo!

I know someone will inevitably cry "Robert Horry!" or "Derek Fisher". Are you seriously comparing Horry's or Fisher's role to Kobe's? I propose a different standard: the indispensable player standard. Kobe, Dr. J, Pippen and Oscar--as well as players like Shaq, Kareem, and Magic at times were not the best players on their teams but without them they could not win. Fishers 9 ppg in the playoffs on the 3-peat Lakers or Horry's 8 ppg and 6 ppg on the Lakers/Spurs championship teams were replaceable by journeyman players.

"Rings as the man" is not always clear. Why should it even matter? If one player was 40% responsible, another 30% responsible, and the other 10 players 30% responsible does that 10% really matter? I look at whether a player was indispensable. If you replaced a player with an above average player at his position would his team still win? If so, I give him less credit.



I'm not comparing Wade to Shaq. That wasn't my point to compare them as players.




Except Kobe was closer to Shaq than Wade is to LeBron right now, especially '01 and '02.



LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010.

Kobe was never going to leave the Lakers IMO. He was just pressuring the front office to bring in talent. He did what he did and got Gasol after Bynum got injured. Dude's "temper tantrum" turned the organization around in a matter of months. Perhaps if guys would quit sitting on their hands wanting the public and the media to like them they'd get shit done.

Anyway Kobe has played every game of his career with one team and even Magic Johnson asked for a trade once. Why should Kobe should be punished because the Lakers refused to honor his wishes and instead tried to build a better team? Kobe never said "swing a Gasol deal" he said "trade me to bummy Chicago to play with Ben Gordon"

But yes, Kobe did bitch and he asked for a trade. However I doubt he was ever going to leave, I think it's obvious he was trying to spark a fire under management to bring in pieces, but let's say he legit was going to go to the Chicago Bulls with Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich. That's not nearly the same as colluding to join forces with two other superstars all in your prime.

Kobe wasn't asking to be traded to a team with a superstar who he'd essentially be competing otherwise and measured against. Kobe didn't ask to be traded to Duncan's Spurs, KG's T-Wolves, Nash's Suns, Wade's Heat, LeBron's Cavs or Dirk's Mavs.

Who cares what these players wanted or what team they joined? The only way it would matter is if Lebron went to a team that was so good that they could just never lose and it was competitively unfair...which is absolutely not what the Heat are.

I swear...listening to Kobe fans and Lebron haters go on and on about how unfair the Heat team is...is just so damn annoying.

I remember before the 11 Finals...a ton of Lebron haters and Kobe fans were saying that it wasn't going to count because the Heat were so stacked. LOL...then they lose to one of the least talented championship teams of all time.

Wade is absolutely great. A top 15 player of all time...maybe even higher when it is all said and done. But outside of Wade...that team is nothing special...Bosh is grossly over-rated.

But again, it is funny to see Kobe fans...the same fans that shrugged off Wade since 05...refer to him as such an elite player when it suits the agenda to knock Lebron.

Guess what. If you want to win more than 2 titles in the NBA as a superstar...you are going to need all nba players for help. Unless you are Duncan....

We all know Kobe's first 3 rings count. He just wasn't really an elite player until his 5th year. He was very good in year 4, but not really elite. I still don't understand why people ignore the fact that Lebron doubled the Cavs wins in year 1...and then put up in year 2 a season that statistically would be in Kobe's top 5 probably with 28/7/7 on 47%fg.

So lets see how Lebron ages and what happens with his career, but so far comparing Lebron's first 10 years to Kobe's first 10 years....its not even comparable. Lebron destroys him in a landslide.

[tpols]

DMAVs what do you think about Shaq's career with the opportunity/success ratio? He played with..

Prime Penny
Prime Kobe
Prime Wade
Prime Lebron

Pretty incredible help all his career.. Thats the best assemble of perimeter talent for a big man, probably ever.

Would you agree that Hakeem had a better career since he had more success for the opportunity he was given?

[tpols]

.

So lets see how Lebron ages and what happens with his career, but so far comparing Lebron's first 10 years to Kobe's first 10 years....its not even comparable. Lebron destroys him in a landslide.
Yea for sure.. Lebron was definitely more NBA ready. Which was rare.. most HS guys took time to adjust before they exploded.

Well see if Lebron can still get it like Kobe in his 15th+ season. Hell probably have surpassed him all time by then anyways but it will be interesting to see how well he ages.. because Kobe has aged better than anybody couldve imagined.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVs what do you think about Shaq's career with the opportunity/success ratio? He played with..

Prime Penny
Prime Kobe
Prime Wade
Prime Lebron

Pretty incredible help all his career.. Thats the best assemble of perimeter talent for a big man, probably ever.

Would you agree that Hakeem had a better career since he had more success for the opportunity he was given?

Really good point. I've thought about this often. Totally agree that Shaq goes under the radar, but he's been blessed to play with a ton of talent.

It's hard for me because the level of dominance that Shaq reached for a few years on the Lakers is just really unlike anything other than a select few in NBA history.

I don't know if Hakeem had a better career, but he definitely proved he was able to win more with less. Hakeem is just so damn hard to rank....it is just my opinion, but I believe Hakeem's numbers make him out to be better than he actually was. I know that is not a popular opinion, but it's just how I felt at the time and feel now.

But again, I don't think Shaq's place in history comes from his 4 rings largely. It comes from his impact and dominance.

But your point is well taken...and supports what we all know deep down. Even the best players of all time needed a lot of help to win titles. I don't know why people try to pretend otherwise.

Having said that, imagine if Dirk and Shaq switched teams for their entire careers...

Shaq might win a title or two, but he also might now. Dirk with Kobe for 8 years and then with Wade for another 2...that is at least 3 titles...probably more. I wonder where people would rank them? Would Shaq be known as a guy that couldn't win? Interesting to thing about.

[DMAVS41]

Yea for sure.. Lebron was definitely more NBA ready. Which was rare.. most HS guys took time to adjust before they exploded.

Well see if Lebron can still get it like Kobe in his 15th+ season. Hell probably have surpassed him all time by then anyways but it will be interesting to see how well he ages.. because Kobe has aged better than anybody couldve imagined.

Yes.

I think it is very likely that Kobe will age better than Lebron, but Lebron was just so damn good early on that it might not be a big enough of a difference to mean a lot. But it will certainly be interesting and all it really means is that we can talk about all this stuff and it's fun, but you can't really say anything until a players' career is over.

Just take Duncan for example...people acted like he was done after 08. If you really watch and pay attention, Duncan has been amazing. Really outside the 11 playoffs...Duncan has been way better than he gets credit for.

He averaged 19/10/3 in 10 in the playoffs
He averaged 17/9/3 last year in the playoffs
He's averaging 17/10/3 in the regular season this year

Now, he's obviously not as good as Kobe is right now, but what Duncan is doing is crazy...especially because his defensive impact is still so great.

Kobe will be able to put up 30 until he's 50. And he's played great this year. I hope they get into the playoffs and we get to see what he can do...because his last 2 years in the playoffs haven't been too good.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Really good point. I've thought about this often. Totally agree that Shaq goes under the radar, but he's been blessed to play with a ton of talent.

It's hard for me because the level of dominance that Shaq reached for a few years on the Lakers is just really unlike anything other than a select few in NBA history.

I don't know if Hakeem had a better career, but he definitely proved he was able to win more with less. Hakeem is just so damn hard to rank....it is just my opinion, but I believe Hakeem's numbers make him out to be better than he actually was. I know that is not a popular opinion, but it's just how I felt at the time and feel now.

But again, I don't think Shaq's place in history comes from his 4 rings largely. It comes from his impact and dominance.

But your point is well taken...and supports what we all know deep down. Even the best players of all time needed a lot of help to win titles. I don't know why people try to pretend otherwise.

Hardly.

His numbers are spectacular, but when you look at the game and watch how he influenced it....that's something else. When you can simultaneously hold it down on the perimeter on picks, adjust fast enough to protect the rim and then just carry an offense at the same time, that's no joke.

The responsibility he had defensively eroded his offensive numbers. It's one thing being able to defend - superstars can do that at an elite level - but having to carry a defensive burden is different. If he was in a situation where he could switch on an off defensively like most superstars though he would average 35 a game.

[Mr. Jabbar]

lebron fans are skipping to the finish line. its sort of disrespectful

well, they were taught shortcuts are ok in life from their hero....

[DMAVS41]

Hardly.

His numbers are spectacular, but when you look at the game and watch how he influenced it....that's something else. When you can simultaneously hold it down on the perimeter on picks, adjust fast enough to protect the rim and then just carry an offense at the same time, that's no joke.

The responsibility he had defensively eroded his offensive numbers. It's one thing being able to defend - superstars can do that at an elite level - but having to carry a defensive burden is different. If he was in a situation where he could switch on an off defensively like most superstars though he would average 35 a game.

This is exactly why I say Hakeem gets a little over-rated here imo. And it kind of happens with every great two way big man other than Duncan. I think KG and Hakeem tend to get over-rated a bit.

The way you describe Hakeem...where do you rank him all time? I think I have him at 9 or something. He was of course great, but so were all the other players in the top 10. I don't think it is crazy to rank Kobe over Hakeem...although I have Hakeem higher...but the player you describe above should never be ranked behind a guy like Kobe or Bird or Magic...and I definitely thought Magic and Bird were better than Hakeem....

[Rubio2Gasol]

This is exactly why I say Hakeem gets a little over-rated here imo. And it kind of happens with every great two way big man other than Duncan. I think KG and Hakeem tend to get over-rated a bit.

The way you describe Hakeem...where do you rank him all time? I think I have him at 9 or something. He was of course great, but so were all the other players in the top 10. I don't think it is crazy to rank Kobe over Hakeem...although I have Hakeem higher...but the player you describe above should never be ranked behind a guy like Kobe or Bird or Magic...and I definitely thought Magic and Bird were better than Hakeem....

Honestly, I rank him above everyone including Jordan if I had to simply subjectively pick a player.l I don't like ranking players, and never participate in all time rankings, I think there's too many variables.

Career wise, he didn't win as much as others and the fact is there are some inexcusable series losses...where he performed great..but he still lost. I'm not going to pretend I think those three were better players than Hakeem....but they deserve what they get for their successes.

It's not about him being a 2 way big either. I'm not a big man guy...not like those dudes who get nostalgic about Russel and Chamberlin and KAJ or even Malone.

Hakeem to me is the exception because of how much he could do. He could beat you on the boards,in the lane, offensively, defensively, off the dribble,post up fade away...any way you want. And it's for that adaptive capacity that he's an exception for me personally.

I'm not trying to impose my thoughts about Hakeem on anyone though...that's unrealistic. People aren't going to rate him as high as I do and that's natural.

[DMAVS41]

Honestly, I rank him above everyone including Jordan if I had to simply subjectively pick a player.l I don't like ranking players, and never participate in all time rankings, I think there's too many variables.

Career wise, he didn't win as much as others and the fact is there are some inexcusable series losses...where he performed great..but he still lost. I'm not going to pretend I think those three were better players than Hakeem....but they deserve what they get for their successes.

It's not about him being a 2 way big either. I'm not a big man guy...not like those dudes who get nostalgic about Russel and Chamberlin and KAJ or even Malone.

Hakeem to me is the exception because of how much he could do. He could beat you on the boards,in the lane, offensively, defensively, off the dribble,post up fade away...any way you want. And it's for that adaptive capacity that he's an exception for me personally.

I'm not trying to impose my thoughts about Hakeem on anyone though...that's unrealistic. People aren't going to rate him as high as I do and that's natural.

I get it. Hakeem was great. We just obviously differ hugely here.

[Hoopz2332]

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