Battle of Eras: Walt Frazier's comments vs Lebron's on the Heat's streak

[jlip]

Frazier: Heat not an all-time great team

Miami Heat are chasing history, but New York Knicks Hall of Famer Walt Frazier doesn't think much of what they've accomplished this season.

"I think they're the best team in the NBA, but I wouldn't call them a great team. I wouldn't rank them anywhere near the top 10 best teams ever," Frazier said Friday on ESPN New York 98.7 FM's "The Michael Kay Show."


"It's more an indication of how weak the NBA is right now than their superiority," Frazier said...

"When we [the Knicks] were the first team in 1969-70 to win 18 consecutive games, the starting five was on the bench in the fourth quarter. I mean, we were blowing teams out. Miami is not blowing teams out; they're making miraculous comebacks.

"So I think sooner or later it's gonna catch up with them. The other problem is they're playing mediocre teams. They're playing teams that have nothing to lose and they're looking to make their season by breaking that streak, so I think that's going to eventually cause their demise..."

...Please don't say that this is a great team, guys. These guys maybe have two [future] Hall of Famers. C'mon. This is not a great team."
Link (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/39208/frazier-heat-arent-so-great)


VS


[I]

[DaSeba5]

Oh but people have told me on here that Miami is the most stacked team in history. :rolleyes:

[Kovach]

Oh but people have told me on here that Miami is the most stacked team in history. :rolleyes:
Compared to the competition they are facing that is probably true.

[PJR]

The irony of a pre-merger champ dissing the strength of the current NBA. :oldlol:

[livinglegend]

These old men are too much.
First, MJ saying only 4 players would be successful in his era. :facepalm
now this.

[BoutPractice]

LeBron's argument is more convincing.

Walt Frazier seems to imply that the greatest teams in history need to have as many Hall of Famers as teams from a specific era that had less teams than today...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Frazier makes a good point. Look at the Eastern conference; it's a complete ****ing joke. Worst I've seen since the early 2000's. Maybe THE worst because of all the injuries.

[Kovach]

These old men are too much.
First, MJ saying only 4 players would be as successful in his era. :facepalm
now this.
Fixed.

[DaSeba5]

First of all, if Miami breaks the streak and wins the title, people are going to put them in the top 10.

It's not like Miami is the only good team in the NBA with all the star players on one team. There are plenty of good and great players on other teams. Teams like Toronto never win because they make poor management decisions. OKC and SAS are both small market teams, and they are very successful.

Maybe two? I think Bosh could get into the HoF, and how can somebody forget Ray Allen? And how does that determine how good a team is? Chalmers, Battier, Miller, Allen, Lewis, Anthony, Birdman, ect. all contribute to this team. Miami is a stacked team.

[rmt]

Frazier is right. 13 Heat wouldn't beat most great championship teams with a dominant big man. LOL at Bosh/Birdman/Anthony guarding a prime KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem or Duncan.

[ripthekik]

Frazier :applause: :applause: :applause:

Ain't no legends will respect Lebron and this Heat team.

Only Lebron fans don't understand why.

[livinglegend]

Those Frazier quotes smell insecurity.

[Sarcastic]

Those Frazier quotes smell insecurity.

You can say the same thing about Lebron's.

[ProfessorMurder]

Hmm... Almost all Heat fans in here being insecure. The team is not that great.

[lebeast666]

So haters are telling me they are the most stacked team in history, but now I'm being told their not even near the top 10 greatest teams? Wouldn't the most stacked team ever = greatest team ever? :confusedshrug:

btw Frazier sounding salty af

[ripthekik]

So haters are telling me they are the most stacked team in history, but now I'm being told their not even near the top 10 greatest teams? Wouldn't the most stacked team ever = greatest team ever? :confusedshrug:

btw Frazier sounding salty af
stacked comparative to current league level.. and it's the truth, I dont think even you lebron fans can deny this :confusedshrug:

Frazier is right on so many levels..

[Mr Exlax]

I'm a big Lebron fan, but yeah this team doesn't strike me as great. He leads the team in too many categories for them to be great. He has to fill too many holes on that team. The streak is a testament to his greatness though.

[plowking]

You can say the same thing about Lebron's.

Lebron simply responded, and his comments hold merit, unlike Walt's, and he also congratulates and acknowledges the greatness of what the Lakers were able to do. Walt on the other hand is uninformed, plain wrong, and just made a handful of stupid comments.

2 hall of famers on this team? And he says, "maybe". Wrong. Allen is a lock. Wade is a lock. Lebron is a lock. Bosh will more than likely make it.

He mentions how weak the league was. Well its certainly a whole lot better than it was the last 12 or 13 years in terms of competition. I'd say its even more competitive than the 90's was in terms of talent spread. People want it both ways when it comes to Heat haters. You say the team isn't that good, and then you turn around and say they're a lock to win and its too easy in terms of how stacked they are. Pick one, it can't be both.

No one is calling this team top 10 ever. But if they do win it all, with this streak intact, they're definitely up there. And lol at acting as if any team with a dominant big would simply destroy the Heat. Nope. The Heat run... A lot. Where the other team has a mismatch, the Heat have one too. Lakers have always given the Heat huge size problems, yet we always beat them, and we're talking about Bynum, Gasol and Howard, who would match up well in any era.

[tpols]

Well.. The league is pretty weak right now. We have, in no order..

Lebron
Durant
Chris Paul
Old Kobe
Wade
Old Duncan
Melo
Tony Parker

As the best players in the league.. Who did he have?

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Wilt
Jerry west

Among others.. All on less teams so the talent was more concentrated on single squads. You had Oscar and kareem together.. Wilt Baylor and west.. Those knicks teams with earl the pearl, Willis reed and Frazier.

The heat have two top players in the league and their best competition will be the Paul George led pacers in the East and probably the Spurs or Thunder in the west. One severely lacks the star power, but is a good team and he other has the star power but doesn't play like a team.

[Kingwillball]

Frazier is an idiot first off dresses like a clown also secondly I stopped taking what he said seriously when he said Heat have 2 HOFers.. They have 4 on their team. Yes Bosh should make it..Ray, Wade and Lebron are locks

[Doctor Rivers]

we're talking about Bynum, Gasol and Howard, who would match up well in any era.

Give me a break, those three wouldn't last for a second in the 90s. Bynum's knees would shatter at the sight of David Robinson, Gasol would be out finessed by Hakeem and young Shaq would show Howard the true meaning of Superman.

[Lebron23]

They were only 17 or 18 teams in 1972. And some of the best basketball players in the world were playing in the American Basketball Association during that time.. The Heat are 24-5 againts the Western Conference. They also have the best record againts 0.500 NBA teams.

[livinglegend]

Well.. The league is pretty weak right now. We have, in no order..

Lebron
Durant
Chris Paul
Old Kobe
Wade
Old Duncan
Melo
Tony Parker

As the best players in the league.. Who did he have?

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Elgin Baylor
Wilt
Jerry west

Among others.. All on less teams so the talent was more concentrated on single squads. You had Oscar and kareem together.. Wilt Baylor and west.. Those knicks teams with earl the pearl, Willis reed and Frazier.

The heat have two top players in the league and their best competition will be the Paul George led pacers in the East and probably the Spurs or Thunder in the west. One severely lacks the star power, but is a good team and he other has the star power but doesn't play like a team.

How many full games of each of those 1970s players have you seen in your life?

[tpols]

. Lakers have always given the Heat huge size problems, yet we always beat them, and we're talking about Bynum, Gasol and Howard, who would match up well in any era.
LOL all three would be pedestrian in the 80s and 90s and in the 70s where post game/midrange/ball movement reigned supreme they would be ass.

[Blue&Orange]

[QUOTE]

[lilgodfather1]

First reaction was who?

Some scrub from the weakest era of basketball talking about how his era was better? Yep sounds right, old people always like to talk about their day, as if it were better. Good ole nostalgia.

[plowking]

Give me a break, those three wouldn't last for a second in the 90s. Bynum's knees would shatter at the sight of David Robinson, Gasol would be out finessed by Hakeem and young Shaq would show Howard the true meaning of Superman.

Bynum has the size to bother any center to ever play, and hes as strong as an ox. Gasol obviously isn't as graceful as Hakeem, but hes undoubtedly an 18/10 guy in any era. And yes, Howard would get taken to school by Shaq. Everyone did though, whats your point?

[Mr. Incredible]

:roll:

[StroShow4]

26 games in a row is 26 games in a row. The league and/or a certain conference has been thought to be weak before and only one other team has pulled this off. LeBron has elevated himself to a level where he is clearly one of the best to ever do it, and his team is about to win a second straight title in its third straight Finals appearance. The Heat have four HOFers (three in their primes) and decent supporting talent. They will be regarded as a great team in the future. Deal with it.

[plowking]

LOL all three would be pedestrian in the 80s and 90s and in the 70s where post game/midrange/ball movement reigned supreme they would be ass.

Of course they would.
You have players like Mike Gminski, of which you don't have the slightest clue who that is, averaging 15+/10 on title contending teams in the 80's and 90's yet Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Bynum would struggle.

This board is full of retards with agendas. F*cking idiots.

[Doctor Rivers]

Bynum has the size to bother any center to ever play, and hes as strong as an ox. Gasol obviously isn't as graceful as Hakeem, but hes undoubtedly an 18/10 guy in any era. And yes, Howard would get taken to school by Shaq. Everyone did though, whats your point?

I think it's pretty obvious what my point was since I stated it in my reply to you. If you truly believe those three have what it takes to be in the top five post players of the 90s then there's nothing left to say...

[tpols]

26 games in a row is 26 games in a row. The league and/or a certain conference has been thought to be weak before and only one other team has pulled this off. LeBron has elevated himself to a level where he is clearly one of the best to ever do it, and his team is about to win a second straight title and its third straight Finals appearance. The Heat have four HOFers (three in their primes) and decent supporting talent. They will be regarded as a great team in the future. Deal with it.
I don't think it's a question of whether the Heat are a great team on their own.. It's that they aren't being tested by other great teams. That was the whole point.

[StroShow4]

I don't think it's a question of whether the Heat are a great team on their own.. It's that they aren't being tested by other great teams. That was the whole point.

I thought Clyde said, "I wouldn't call them a great team." I'm addressing his comment.

[Greg Oden 50]

Frazier is an idiot first off dresses like a clown also secondly I stopped taking what he said seriously when he said Heat have 2 HOFers.. They have 4 on their team. Yes Bosh should make it..Ray, Wade and Lebron are locks

lol Bosh will be HOF,I can't stop laugh :roll:

[unbreakable]

They will be regarded as a great team in the future. Deal with it.


They will be regarded as great by ESPN Boys like yourself.

But for NBA Legends and Hoopheads like myself, they are just a stacked team in a 30 -team washed down league. ... top 25 team all time, but no where near top 10.

[lebeast666]

The 70s era was a joke. Mostly looked like high school players. 80-90s and onwards is when NBA can be taken serious.

[plowking]

I think it's pretty obvious what my point was since I stated it in my reply to you. If you truly believe those three have what it takes to be in the top five post players of the 90s then there's nothing left to say...

Who said anything about top 5? I said they'd match up well.

[Greg Oden 50]

First reaction was who?

Some scrub from the weakest era of basketball talking about how his era was better? Yep sounds right, old people always like to talk about their day, as if it were better. Good ole nostalgia.

LeBron dominant in a weak era that hv no Quailty Center :banana:

[Kovach]

Of course they would.
You have players like Mike Gminski, of which you don't have the slightest clue who that is, averaging 15+/10 on title contending teams in the 80's and 90's yet Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Bynum would struggle.

This board is full of retards with agendas. F*cking idiots.
Gminski? Yea, I only watched him when he dropped 40 on the 86 Celtics. Pure scrub.

Unlike the 3 above he could actually shoot.

[tpols]

Of course they would.
You have players like Mike Gminski, of which you don't have the slightest clue who that is, averaging 15+/10 on title contending teams in the 80's and 90's yet Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Bynum would struggle.

This board is full of retards with agendas. F*cking idiots.
IDK what our point is.. All three of those guys would be average centers in the 70s/80s/90s. And they're some of the best talent currently. It's actually pathetic. We went from

Prime KG
Prime Shaq
Prime Duncan
Prime Dirk
Prime Webber
Prime Jermaine Oneal
Even Yao was better than those guys..

Less than a decade ago to now. And you're propping up Pau Gasol and Dwight who are some of the best talent at the position, on the SAME 8th seeded team. What a joke..

[StroShow4]

For the record, the Heat have beaten 12 teams that will be in the Playoffs during the streak. If they keep it alive and beat San Antonio they'll have 30 wins and will have beaten the current #1, #2, #4, #5, #7, and #8 seeds from the West and the #2, #3, #5, #6, #7, and #8 seeds from the East.

[StroShow4]

They will be regarded as great by ESPN Boys like yourself.

I can't stand ESPN.

[Dro]

When people say Miami is the most stacked team, they are referring to 2 HOF's on their team and another all-star...I think we all know that...Does that mean stacked? I don't know. But I kind've agree with Frazier, the competition is much weaker and there is no way this team would beat some of those great teams with great centers and great team defense. I just don't see it.

[Greg Oden 50]

The 70s era was a joke. Mostly looked like high school players. 80-90s and onwards is when NBA can be taken serious.

2011-2013 era is a joke............When Dwight is the best Center in this era,he is not even half as gd as Alonzo Mourning :banana:

[Lebron23]

I think it's pretty obvious what my point was since I stated it in my reply to you. If you truly believe those three have what it takes to be in the top five post players of the 90s then there's nothing left to say...


Pau Gasol would still be a very productive player in the 1990's. He's one of the best low post scorers today.

[Greg Oden 50]

IDK what our point is.. All three of those guys would be average centers in the 70s/80s/90s. And they're some of the best talent currently. It's actually pathetic. We went from

Prime KG
Prime Shaq
Prime Duncan
Prime Dirk
Prime Webber
Prime Jermaine Oneal
Even Yao was better than those guys..

Less than a decade ago to now. And you're propping up Pau Gasol and Dwight who are some of the best talent at the position, on the SAME 8th seeded team. What a joke..

:applause:

[Greg Oden 50]

Pau Gasol would still be a very productive player in the 1990's. He's one of the best low post scorers today.

he is one of the best low post scorer today because this era is so weak at Cneter postion :banana:Alonzo Mourning will be the best Center in this era if he plays against those scrubs Center today

[Blue&Orange]

Of course they would.
You have players like Mike Gminski, of which you don't have the slightest clue who that is, averaging 15+/10 on title contending teams in the 80's and 90's yet Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Bynum would struggle.

This board is full of retards with agendas. F*cking idiots.
lol yeah because Howard Bynum and Gasol will be remembered in 20 years :roll:

The only time Howard will be brought up is when someone tries to prove how weak this era was, i can see it already, people pulling his youtube videos, with his awesome offensive moves and laughing on how he was the best big men on the league now.

[unbreakable]

I can't stand ESPN.

BRO youre basically a white Stuart Scott :cheers:

[Solid Snake]

His ol' fossil ass hating. Bitch ass *****.

[TheMan]

So haters are telling me they are the most stacked team in history, but now I'm being told their not even near the top 10 greatest teams? Wouldn't the most stacked team ever = greatest team ever? :confusedshrug:

btw Frazier sounding salty af
I think Frazier meant that this Heat team is stacked in comparison to current NBA teams, their competition, but if you were to compare them to all time teams, they wouldn't be all that impressive. I somewhat agree with Frazier but the Heat do have prime LBJ, Wade, a very good PF in Bosh and a still servicable Ray Allen.

Their biggest weakness is their overall small FC though, all time teams with elite FCs would pose match up problems in a hypothetical head to head game.

[StroShow4]

BRO youre basically a white Stuart Scott :cheers:

When does Stuart Scott ever actually argue any points? He hosts TV shows. I'm not hosting this discussion, I'm participating. Bring some actual information and maybe you can effectively participate.

[Jax]

He played against guys that took basketball as a hobby and amateurs and didn't even play against the best and is talking about league strenght? GTFO

[plowking]

Gminski? Yea, I only watched him when he dropped 40 on the 86 Celtics. Pure scrub.

Unlike the 3 above he could actually shoot.

Pau can shoot. A whole lot better than Gminski. Not to mention hes better with his back to the basket, a better defender, and has a much larger skillset of moves.

Pau's averaging 46% over the last 6 years from 16-23 feet. Same goes for 10-15 feet. But let me guess. Gminski was a better shooter right? :oldlol:
Gasol is one of the best, if not the best mid range shooter for a big man outside of Chris Bosh.

[Dro]

Pau can shoot. A whole lot better than Gminski. Not to mention hes better with his back to the basket, a better defender, and has a much larger skillset of moves.

Pau's averaging 46% over the last 6 years from 16-23 feet. Same goes for 10-15 feet. But let me guess. Gminski was a better shooter right? :oldlol:
Gasol is one of the best, if not the best mid range shooter for a big man outside of Chris Bosh.
Reading this forum, I would've never know Pau was so good..People saying Earl Clark is better than him....:facepalm

[arifgokcen]

Frazier :applause: :applause: :applause:

Ain't no legends will respect Lebron and this Heat team.

Only Lebron fans don't understand why.
Dude i remember you saying heat is one of the most stacked teams in history

now you come back and say this.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I am laughing my ass off right now(writing short wouldnt have dont justice to this situation)

There is only one possibility you are either lying or lying.

Which one is it :roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheMan]

Give me a break, those three wouldn't last for a second in the 90s. Bynum's knees would shatter at the sight of David Robinson, Gasol would be out finessed by Hakeem and young Shaq would show Howard the true meaning of Superman.
This

It's downright ignorant to say these guys can hang with elite bigs from other eras:facepalm Isn't it a given that we are in the weakest big man era?:confusedshrug:

[Greg Oden 50]

His ol' fossil ass hating. Bitch ass *****.

Dwight will be a scrubs if he plays in 90s :banana:

[Lebron23]

Pau Gas9ol is a better player than Mike Gwinski. Bynum is a better Center than Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. He averaged 18 ppg and 12 rpg last year.

[plowking]

he is one of the best low post scorer today because this era is so weak at Cneter postion :banana:Alonzo Mourning will be the best Center in this era if he plays against those scrubs Center today

Mourning was voted to the 1st team All NBA in the 90's with a league that had Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan in it. What's your point? You're acting as if its some disgrace to the league.

[chips93]

Gasol is one of the best, if not the best mid range shooter for a big man outside of Chris Bosh.

hes release is so slow though

dirk, ryan anderson, david lee, david west, kg, aldridge, marc gasol are all better mid range shooters

paus jumper isnt what it used to be


This

It's downright ignorant to say these guys can hang with elite bigs from other eras:facepalm Isn't it a given that we are in the weakest big man era?:confusedshrug:

would all these lumbering low post centers of the 90s be able to play in the fast pace of today? im not so sure

[Greg Oden 50]

Pau can shoot. A whole lot better than Gminski. Not to mention hes better with his back to the basket, a better defender, and has a much larger skillset of moves.

Pau's averaging 46% over the last 6 years from 16-23 feet. Same goes for 10-15 feet. But let me guess. Gminski was a better shooter right? :oldlol:
Gasol is one of the best, if not the best mid range shooter for a big man outside of Chris Bosh.

Pau is not even better than Horace Grant :roll:

[Lebron23]

Dude i remember you saying heat is one of the most stacked teams in history

now you come back and say this.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I am laughing my ass off right now(writing short wouldnt have dont justice to this situation)

There is only one possibility you are either lying or lying.

Which one is it :roll: :roll: :roll:


That guy is obviously a retard. Just put him back on your ignore lists.

[plowking]

hes release is so slow though

dirk, ryan anderson, david lee, david west, kg, aldridge, marc gasol are all better mid range shooters

paus jumper isnt what it used to be



would all these lumbering low post centers of the 90s be able to play in the fast pace of today? im not so sure

I did mean spot up shooter, so thanks for correcting me.

The last bit of your post is exactly what I'm referring to. All these people claiming Heat are mismatched if faced with a decent big man, but it goes both ways.

And lol at people acting like Pau, Howard and Bynum couldn't manage at all in the leagues back in the day. Sure... They'd all be the worst players at their position. Might as well just scrap the PF and C position since its so bad these days. Make it a 6'8 and under league.

[TheMan]

Bynum has the size to bother any center to ever play, and hes as strong as an ox. Gasol obviously isn't as graceful as Hakeem, but hes undoubtedly an 18/10 guy in any era. And yes, Howard would get taken to school by Shaq. Everyone did though, whats your point?
Dude, don't try so hard:lol

first point...Are we talking about the same 80 year old knees Bynam? Really having a great season so far...oh wait:facepalm

Howard would be taken to school by Shaq, Hakeem, KAJ, Ewing, DRobinson, MMalone, Mourning etc etc...Howard is Dikembe Mutombo with a slight upgrade on offense, he wouldn't sniff top 5 in any other era except late 2000s to today's weak sauce big man era...

[plowking]

Pau is not even better than Horace Grant :roll:

Yeah he is. A lot better too.

[Greg Oden 50]

Mourning was voted to the 1st team All NBA in the 90's with a league that had Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan in it. What's your point? You're acting as if its some disgrace to the league.

how bad the Center position in this era :banana:

[Greg Oden 50]

Yeah he is. A lot better too.

no way .........Horace Grant can do what Pau can do with much better defence :rockon:

[Greg Oden 50]

That guy is obviously a retard. Just put him back on your ignore lists.

LeBron stans is going crazy :roll:

[Doctor Rivers]

would all these lumbering low post centers of the 90s be able to play in the fast pace of today? im not so sure
lumbering?! lol take a look at just Robinson and Shaq and tell me they wouldn't be able to hang.

David Robinson - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

Shaq - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91tnm0Y02YY

The Robinson video is incredible.

[plowking]

no way .........Horace Grant can do what Pau can do with much better defence :rockon:

This is why you already have a red bar after so little posts.

[Greg Oden 50]

Dude, don't try so hard:lol

first point...Are we talking about the same 80 year old knees Bynam? Really have a great season so far...oh wait:facepalm

Howard would be taken to school by Shaq, Hakeem, KAJ, Ewing, DRobinson, MMalone, Mourning etc etc...Howard is Dikembe Mutombo with a slight upgrade on offense, he wouldn't sniff top 5 in any other era except late 2000s to today's weak sauce big man era...

:applause:

[niko]

The reason i don't see this team as top 10 ever (as a valid comment) is simply the lack of quality size. Some of the older teams i remember would have beaten this team to death inside. The old Pistons teams, how would the Heat have rebounded against them? The Lakers would have fed Kareem inside to death, as would the Celtics with their bigs. They also would have walked the ball up and reduced the Heat's chances.

This always happens with great players (Lebron) who transcend, for some reason people want the surrounding players to get props too. THe truth is Lebron is far far closer to the greatest player of all time than this team is to the greatest team of all time.

[Greg Oden 50]

This is why you already have a red bar after so little posts.

U MAD :roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

hes release is so slow though

dirk, ryan anderson, david lee, david west, kg, aldridge, marc gasol are all better mid range shooters

paus jumper isnt what it used to be



would all these lumbering low post centers of the 90s be able to play in the fast pace of today? im not so sure

Fast pace? :oldlol: Ever heard of the 80's? Idiot.

[TheMan]

hes release is so slow though

dirk, ryan anderson, david lee, david west, kg, aldridge, marc gasol are all better mid range shooters

paus jumper isnt what it used to be



would all these lumbering low post centers of the 90s be able to play in the fast pace of today? im not so sure
Well, the NBA changed rules to favor a more wide open perimeter game...with 80s rules where a center can park his big ass in the lane and not worry about a 3 second rule...things would be much different.

The Heat are taking advantage of the rule changes and overall lack of elite bigs today. Let's see how effective the Heat's small line up would be against an elite FC like the 86 Celtics before the NBA changed the rules. Simply put, the Heat would get demolished in the low post and get outrebounded by scandalous margins...

[arifgokcen]

That guy is obviously a retard. Just put him back on your ignore lists.
Everyone knows he is a retard and he was on my ignore list but this was way too funny.I had to point it out

[plowking]

Well, the NBA changed rules to favor a more wide open perimeter game...with 80s rules where a center can park his big ass in the lane and not worry about a 3 second rule...things would be much different.

The Heat are taking advantage of the rule changes and overall lack of elite bigs today. Let's see how effective the Heat's small line up would be against an elite FC like the 86 Celtics before the NBA changed the rules. Simply put, the Heat would get demolished in the low post and get outrebounded by scandalous margins...

Lets see those teams play in today's pick and roll era, with the 3 second rule and an emphasis needed on perimeter play due to rule restrictions to prevent bigs on the offensive and defensive end.

The Heat are built the way they are due to the rules and their era.

[eriX]

everyones talking about the lack of size in the heat roster but at the same time noting the relatively weak era of big mens... do you not see the correlation? :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

Lets see those teams play in today's pick and roll era, with the 3 second rule and an emphasis needed on perimeter play due to rule restrictions to prevent bigs on the offensive and defensive end.

The Heat are built the way they are due to the rules and their era.

Thanks for making my point:applause:

[plowking]

Thanks for making my point:applause:

Just to add to it, they wouldn't get trumped by teams with great big men, just for the fact they have great big men.

The team is built to best utilize the style of play that will help you win in a certain era. Heat seem to have it figured out. They're a great team, and matched up with another great team, it'd be a decent game to watch.

[2LeTTeRS]

IDK what our point is.. All three of those guys would be average centers in the 70s/80s/90s. And they're some of the best talent currently. It's actually pathetic. We went from

Prime KG
Prime Shaq
Prime Duncan
Prime Dirk
Prime Webber
Prime Jermaine Oneal
Even Yao was better than those guys..

Less than a decade ago to now. And you're propping up Pau Gasol and Dwight who are some of the best talent at the position, on the SAME 8th seeded team. What a joke..

You realize that of all those players only 2 (Shaq and Yao) spent much time playing Center right? I made a thread back in 09 saying all those guys should be 5's and 1/2 the board called me an idiot. Guess I got the last laugh though.

Check it out >>> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123791

[niko]

Lets see those teams play in today's pick and roll era, with the 3 second rule and an emphasis needed on perimeter play due to rule restrictions to prevent bigs on the offensive and defensive end.

The Heat are built the way they are due to the rules and their era.

The great Pistons, Celtic and Laker teams all had bigs who could hit jumpers, as well as go inside and play post and rebound. They'd be just fine on pick n rolls. Dumars and Thomas with Edwards and Lambeer on the pick and roll would not work? DJ with McHale wouldn't work?

Also remember there were less teams back then, the freaking Celtics had Walton coming off the bench. The Lakers regularly had stacked lineups.

I get it's not possible to create the same stacked teams as prior years but that doesn't mean you get to pretend those teams were not stacked. Think of the people coming off the HEat bench vs. the great teams of yesteryears. It's not the same at all.

[guy]

I tend to agree more with Lebron. Back then, not only were there less teams because of another league who had about just as much talent, but there was a smaller talent pool in general. That means that even if the league today was split into two different leagues, both leagues on their own might still be better then the NBA or ABA back then.

Anyway, both sides overrate one era and downplay another usually to the extreme. I see way too many people here that say players like Dwight Howard, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki couldn't play back then and other people say Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, John Havlicek, Bill Walton, Larry Bird, John Stockton couldn't play today. Its pretty stupid. They all are probably a little better or worse depending on the era, but nothing substantial enough to say there greatness would be that different. Sure certain things like inflated stats, titles in a smaller league, all-nba teams need to be taken into account as they've differed in eras, but that doesn't mean there abilities are that much better or worse then we think.

In this case, Lebron didn't really say anything to the extreme. Walt did though.

[tpols]

You realize that of all those players only 2 (Shaq and Yao) spent much time playing Center right? I made a thread back in 09 saying all those guys should be 5's and 1/2 the board called me an idiot. Guess I got the last laugh though.

Check it out >>> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123791
The guy I was replying to was talking about Pau, Dwight, and Bynum and how they would play in the past. Thats two C's and a PF.. big men in general. So I listed all the great PFs and Cs. Thyeyre both big men positions.

And I read that thread.. the notion that Shaq made guys like KG and Webber play PF instead of C is laughable. Webber played PF in college and KG has always had a game that gravitated towards the high post/perimeter.. Both of those guys werent nearly as big as Ewing/Robinson/Wilt/KAJ/Sabonis/Walton etc. other great centers. They had prototypical PF bodies and games.

[necya]

[QUOTE=jlip]
Frazier: Heat not an all-time great team

Miami Heat are chasing history, but New York Knicks Hall of Famer Walt Frazier doesn't think much of what they've accomplished this season.

"I think they're the best team in the NBA, but I wouldn't call them a great team. I wouldn't rank them anywhere near the top 10 best teams ever," Frazier said Friday on ESPN New York 98.7 FM's "The Michael Kay Show."


"It's more an indication of how weak the NBA is right now than their superiority," Frazier said...

"When we [the Knicks] were the first team in 1969-70 to win 18 consecutive games, the starting five was on the bench in the fourth quarter. I mean, we were blowing teams out. Miami is not blowing teams out; they're making miraculous comebacks.

"So I think sooner or later it's gonna catch up with them. The other problem is they're playing mediocre teams. They're playing teams that have nothing to lose and they're looking to make their season by breaking that streak, so I think that's going to eventually cause their demise..."

...Please don't say that this is a great team, guys. These guys maybe have two [future] Hall of Famers. C'mon. This is not a great team."
Link (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/39208/frazier-heat-arent-so-great)


VS


[I]

[jlip]

i'm just thinking about taking the best player of the league in 1986 or 1988 or 1990 or 1993 and adding a top 2 SG or SF...and adding a top 5 PF...
it gives some scary association like Bird and Jordan, MJ and Nique in their prime....no, the Heat has to win it all every year to complete the mission.

That would not fit like MJ and Pippen. A team of MJ and Nique would not have nearly the same synergy as a team with MJ and Pippen. Being able to play together is almost tantamount to the amount of talent in determining a team's effectiveness. We see more talented teams lose to less talented teams that know how to play together all of the time.

[2LeTTeRS]

The guy I was replying to was talking about Pau, Dwight, and Bynum and how they would play in the past. Thats two C's and a PF.. big men in general. So I listed all the great PFs and Cs. Thyeyre both big men positions.

And I read that thread.. the notion that Shaq made guys like KG and Webber play PF instead of C is laughable. Webber played PF in college and KG has always had a game that gravitated towards the high post/perimeter.. Both of those guys werent nearly as big as Ewing/Robinson/Wilt/KAJ/Sabonis/Walton etc. other great centers. They had prototypical PF bodies and games.

Thats a bit of a slanted fact, Webber only played the 4 in college because he had a player bigger than him on his team in Juwan Howard. He would have been just as big of an asset playing the 5 if he was on a team without another quality big and thats esepcailly true in todays game. Jalen Rose was also a point guard on that team, but most NBA fans would tell you his best position was (and still is) as a swingman.

The bigs of the late 90s-early 2000's all seemed to consciously or subconsiously have attached a stigma to the 5 position. Can find the links later for you, but I thought it was pretty well known. I remember Amare playing the 5 for years in Phoenix without accepting the label of "center", as well as KG refusing to claim his true height for fear of being asked to convert to a 5, and Tim Duncan's well known hatred of being labeled a "center."

[steve]

i can agree with Frazier and James on the fact that there are too many bad teams, the level of the league is weak, that the Heat is the best team of the league but no way a top 10 team all-time, the bad exemple of the period as some supperstars were playing in the ABA and on the fact that a 26 winning streak is a 26 winning streak, no matter if they win by 5 or 20pts.

There are always bad teams though. When the Lakers set the record in '72, there three teams who won less than 30% and over half the teams in the league won less (and less than half the teams won 50% of the games in '70 too), but no one really remembers or focuses on this. 20 years from now, people might remember how epically bad the Bobcats were, but they'll probably gloss over how bad the Kings, Hornets, and Cavs were and instead focus on how great the Heat, Thunder, and Spurs (and maybe focusing on a few other things that haven't quite happened yet). If you have great teams in a league, it also means you're going to have some really crappy teams along the way too, but it's easy to remember when you're focusing on this season rather trying to recall something you never saw in the first place.

Interesting little note: When the Knicks set their record in '70 with 18 straight wins, their streak ended by losing to a Pistons team that finished the season 31-51.

[k0kakw0rld]

Frazier makes a good point. Look at the Eastern conference; it's a complete ****ing joke. Worst I've seen since the early 2000's. Maybe THE worst because of all the injuries.
You don't play 82 games against the same conference teams you dumb fvck :facepalm

[guy]

There are always bad teams though. When the Lakers set the record in '72, there three teams who won less than 30% and over half the teams in the league won less (and less than half the teams won 50% of the games in '70 too), but no one really remembers or focuses on this. 20 years from now, people might remember how epically bad the Bobcats were, but they'll probably gloss over how bad the Kings, Hornets, and Cavs were and instead focus on how great the Heat, Thunder, and Spurs (and maybe focusing on a few other things that haven't quite happened yet). If you have great teams in a league, it also means you're going to have some really crappy teams along the way too, but it's easy to remember when you're focusing on this season rather trying to recall something you never saw in the first place.

Interesting little note: When the Knicks set their record in '70 with 18 straight wins, their streak ended by losing to a Pistons team that finished the season 31-51.

You also can't just compare leagues to each other based on WL records. In the end, the average is always going to be 41. In both cases, the 72 Lakers and 13 Heat could have such a better record then everyone else because there either just that good or their opponents are just that bad. No way of telling based on records.

[steve]

You also can't just compare leagues to each other based on WL records. In the end, the average is always going to be 41. In both cases, the 72 Lakers and 13 Heat could have such a better record then everyone else because there either just that good or their opponents are just that bad. No way of telling based on records.

Maybe, but it carries the exact same weight is trying to compare how a team or player would do in a certain that they never played in. All we do know for certain is that only one team has won more games in a row than this Heat team in NBA history. Most of the time it just results in idiotic statements and inane back and forth without much in the way of objectivity or context.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You don't play 82 games against the same conference teams you dumb fvck :facepalm

:confusedshrug:

53 of their 69 games have been against Eastern conference teams. How slow are you? :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByDe1tqNlC0

Charles Barkley explicitly describes and talks about how "watered down" the talent in the league is right now.

2 against 1. I'm gonna trust the legends on this one.

[DonDadda59]

Both guys have a point IMO. The Heat aren't one of the great teams of all time, but Bron did have a great point about the pre merger era. When was the last time the Heat actually faced a challenge though. Seems like lately they've been gutting out wins against Detroit, Cleveland, and smashing the Bobcats. That's not all that impressive. They've had a pretty favorable schedule the last few weeks.

[Indian guy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByDe1tqNlC0

Charles Barkley explicitly describes and talks about how "watered down" the talent in the league is right now.

Charles has been saying this from the moment his fat ass retired from the NBA. He has been sh!tting on the NBA from the moment he started his gig on TNT.

Everybody likes to think their time was the "best", and everything that followed was worse. Which is why every old fart's opinion couldn't be more worthless when it comes to life. And the fact that Walt Frazier, the guy who played in the joke that was 70's NBA, could be criticizing the current league is a testament to just how deluded human beings tend to be about anything and everything they are not part of. It's amazing how the older people get, the more insecure and stupid they get.

[Indian guy]

When was the last time the Heat actually faced a challenge though.

Ummm, a week ago against a HOT Celtics team, that was up ALL game against them? Half their opponents in this 26 game win streak have been playoff teams. Their competition has been fine.

[KingBeasley08]

Charles has been saying this from the moment his fat ass retired from the NBA. He has been sh!tting on the NBA from the moment he started his gig on TNT.

Everybody likes to think their time was the "best", and everything that followed was worse. Which is why every old fart's opinion couldn't be more worthless when it comes to life. And the fact that Walt Frazier, the guy who played in the joke that was 70's NBA, could be criticizing the current league is a testament to just how deluded human beings tend to be about anything and everything they are not part of. It's amazing how the older people get, the more insecure and stupid they get.
:applause:

Older people always think their generation is the best

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ummm, a week ago against a HOT Celtics team, that was up ALL game against them? Half their opponents in this 26 game win streak have been playoff teams. Their competition has been fine.

Yeah, the MIGHTY Celtics without KG and Rondo. :eek: :bowdown:

[Indian guy]

Yeah, without BOTH KG and Rondo. :eek: :bowdown:

They are, by all means, a superior team without Rondo this season, and Green's ridiculous offensive game(arguably the best scoring game we've seen this season) made KG's absence irrelevant. Boston couldn't have played a better game and haven't come close since either.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They are, by all means, a superior team without Rondo this season, and Green's ridiculous offensive game(arguably the best scoring game we've seen this season) made KG's absence irrelevant. Boston couldn't have played a better game and haven't come close since either.

Green made KG's defensive impact irrelevant? Boston is actually better without Rondo?!? Wow. Lebron fans are ****ing crazy. :oldlol:

[niko]

Charles has been saying this from the moment his fat ass retired from the NBA. He has been sh!tting on the NBA from the moment he started his gig on TNT.

Everybody likes to think their time was the "best", and everything that followed was worse. Which is why every old fart's opinion couldn't be more worthless when it comes to life. And the fact that Walt Frazier, the guy who played in the joke that was 70's NBA, could be criticizing the current league is a testament to just how deluded human beings tend to be about anything and everything they are not part of. It's amazing how the older people get, the more insecure and stupid they get.

He gave actual reasons. You are saying basically he must be biased not to think now is better. Which sounds delusional?

The best teams of this era don't need to be as good as the best teams of prior era's because the talent was more concentrated at that time in a few teams. There were less teams (pre expansion) and it always felt like a few teams were uber stacked. This Miami team is not stacked. It has Lebron who is godlike, Wade who is very good but aging, Bosh who is good and a bunch of really solid role players. It's not overwhelming talent.

There are a bunch of teams in the West who can give Miami a really solid fight in the finals. If Miami is historically good, are those teams too? Is San Antonio a historically good team that they could compete?

[willds09]

Oh but people have told me on here that Miami is the most stacked team in history. :rolleyes:
they are, frazier is saying with knicks talent back then they knew how to beat tha teams they need to beat blowing them out by 20 or more in contrast to miam cheat who cant even blowout tha cavs:no:

[willds09]

Those Frazier quotes smell insecurity.
somebodys mad:lol

[Indian guy]

He gave actual reasons.

What reasons? All he said was the today's era was "weak", the same tripe we've been hearing from every retired old fart since the inception of time. Retired players' opinion on the state of their sport today couldn't be more irrelevant. Everyone's human and everyone's insecure. It's just how we were made. I have read countless books by athletes that discuss the current state of the league and they all have one thing in common - their time was better. Wilt sh!tted on the 80's, Bird on the 90's and MJ on the 00's. Can't you see how we can't take any of these guys seriously?


and it always felt like a few teams were uber stacked.

Sounds a lot like the current league. A few teams that are stacked and the championship will come between those 3-4 teams. That's what the NBA has always been about - 3-4 GREAT teams battling it out. This has never been a league about parity. The NBA is all about superstars and the dominant teams they play on.


There are a bunch of teams in the West who can give Miami a really solid fight in the finals. If Miami is historically good, are those teams too? Is San Antonio a historically good team that they could compete?

This is some awful logic. So just because a historically good team plays a competitive series, they can't be THAT good? '86 Celtics and '96 Bulls were taken to 6 games in the Finals, I guess they lost their all-time-great card right there then :rolleyes:

Historically good teams are those that have dominant talent(2 top 10 players minimum), a dominant regular season(mid 60's wins) and manage to go through the playoffs with relative ease(5 losses or less, although this isn't a must). If Miami can manage to do that, then yes, they absolutely ARE an all-time great team.

[guy]

He gave actual reasons. You are saying basically he must be biased not to think now is better. Which sounds delusional?

The best teams of this era don't need to be as good as the best teams of prior era's because the talent was more concentrated at that time in a few teams. There were less teams (pre expansion) and it always felt like a few teams were uber stacked. This Miami team is not stacked. It has Lebron who is godlike, Wade who is very good but aging, Bosh who is good and a bunch of really solid role players. It's not overwhelming talent.

There are a bunch of teams in the West who can give Miami a really solid fight in the finals. If Miami is historically good, are those teams too? Is San Antonio a historically good team that they could compete?

Its not more concentrated. There were 17 NBA teams and 11 ABA teams, and the NBA wasn't that much better then the ABA. On top of that the talent pool in general was smaller.

[Indian guy]

Green made KG's defensive impact irrelevant?

What I'm saying is, Green's once-in-a-lifetime offensive performance more than made up for whatever KG would've brought defensively.


Boston is actually better without Rondo?!?

They sure as **** have been this season. Did you just wake up from a coma?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What I'm saying is, Green's once-in-a-lifetime offensive performance more than made up for whatever KG would've brought defensively.]

I know what you're saying. You're just wrong.

Green's "once-in-a-lifetime" offensive performance (held scoreless the last 9 minutes of the game :oldlol:) doesn't offset KG, an all-time great, and his intangibles. You don't "make that up".


They sure as **** have been this season. Did you just wake up from a coma?

Are we in the postseason yet? Quit being a sensationalist.

[Indian guy]

Green's "once-in-a-lifetime" offensive performance

For him, it was a once-in-a-lifetime performance. An 11 ppg guy going for 40+ on insane efficiency. You NEVER see that. He more than made up for whatever KG would've brought. Factoring in opponent, Boston comfortably played their best game of the season that night. It was Miami's toughest victory of the season.


Are we in the postseason yet? Quit being a sensationalist.

Considering Miami played them in a REGULAR season game, we can only judge Boston w/o Rondo based on their regular season performance w/o him. And they, clearly, have proven to be better without him. You cannot sight his absence as an advantage for Miami.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

For him, it was a once-in-a-lifetime performance. An 11 ppg guy going for 40+ on insane efficiency. You NEVER see that. He more than made up for whatever KG would've brought. Factoring in opponent, Boston comfortably played their best game of the season that night. It was Miami's toughest victory of the season.

You do know that basketball is played on BOTH ends, right? Green's scoring doesn't makeup what the Celtics lost defensively. Period. Who's to say he doesn't go off w/ KG in the lineup anyway?


Considering Miami played them in a REGULAR season game, we can only judge Boston w/o Rondo based on their regular season performance w/o him. And they, clearly, have proven to be better without him. You cannot sight his absence as an advantage for Miami.

Your love for LeBron knows NO BOUNDS. :oldlol:

To get a comparable sample size, you MUST take postseason play into account. To say they are a hell of a lot better without him, just off regular season play, is short sided.

[longtime lurker]

LOL only Heat fans are Lebron stans actually disagree with Clyde's comments. If you actually think about what he's saying it's true, I have a hard time believing the Heat team would beat the Western conference runners up in the early 2000s. The Houston Rockets went on a 22 game streak a lot of games without T-mac and Yao are they all time greats now too? Denver has the opportunity to have the 3rd greatest streak that doesn't make them an all time great team either

[NumberSix]

I don't know what his point is. The NBA has ALWAYS been a league with only a few top teams at a time that are truly contenders. The league has NEVER been strong on parity.

[icewill36]

i cant take these old guys seriously... i just cant.

miami is not a great team ? cmon man

acting like this streak is not impressive despite the fact only one other team in the history of the league has as many wins in a row ?

also, i dont think the league is weak at all right now. i think all the top 5 in the west are contenders, then you look at the fact the lakers SHOULD be with their amount of talent, the bulls would be with rose, celtics if they were healthy, the knicks if they get their groove back, which is a real possibility with amare gone again. i cant even think of a year with this many really good teams.

[Graviton]

Walt is a really insecure old man that feels the need to prop us his era to stay relevant. One of those sad old timers forgotten by history. Same idiot that said Wilt would average 70 points in today's league.

Legends like Russel and Oscar are at least respectful and recognize talent without trying to prop up their own era. They have actual logic and provide insightful analysis.

Frazier is like that one kid that has to yell "My dad will kick your dad's ass!". Just STFU and enjoy the few years you have left on this planet. No one gives a shit about your ridiculous statements. If Knicks were on this streak with healthy Melo, Stat, Chandler and J-Kidd, Frazier would be riding their dick like there is no tomorrow.

[tmacattack33]

[QUOTE=jlip]
Frazier: Heat not an all-time great team

Miami Heat are chasing history, but New York Knicks Hall of Famer Walt Frazier doesn't think much of what they've accomplished this season.

"I think they're the best team in the NBA, but I wouldn't call them a great team. I wouldn't rank them anywhere near the top 10 best teams ever," Frazier said Friday on ESPN New York 98.7 FM's "The Michael Kay Show."


"It's more an indication of how weak the NBA is right now than their superiority," Frazier said...

"When we [the Knicks] were the first team in 1969-70 to win 18 consecutive games, the starting five was on the bench in the fourth quarter. I mean, we were blowing teams out. Miami is not blowing teams out; they're making miraculous comebacks.

"So I think sooner or later it's gonna catch up with them. The other problem is they're playing mediocre teams. They're playing teams that have nothing to lose and they're looking to make their season by breaking that streak, so I think that's going to eventually cause their demise..."

...Please don't say that this is a great team, guys. These guys maybe have two [future] Hall of Famers. C'mon. This is not a great team."
Link (http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/39208/frazier-heat-arent-so-great)


VS


[I]

[ripthekik]

Like I said, the LeBron fan kids in here just doesn't understand why no legend or other nba players respect then. Hilarious.:oldlol:

Yes, Heat is incredibly stacked, but it is comparative to the current level of the nba. If the east wasn't so weak, or they had to play out west, they wouldn't make it to the finals.

This is like the 10th legend disrespecting bron lmao:roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

Like I said, the LeBron fan kids in here just doesn't understand why no legend or other nba players respect then. Hilarious.:oldlol:

Yes, Heat is incredibly stacked, but it is comparative to the current level of the nba. If the east wasn't so weak, or they had to play out west, they wouldn't make it to the finals.

This is like the 10th legend disrespecting bron lmao:roll:
How many more before these kids get the point :lol

[tmacattack33]

Like I said, the LeBron fan kids in here just doesn't understand why no legend or other nba players respect then. Hilarious.:oldlol:

Yes, Heat is incredibly stacked, but it is comparative to the current level of the nba. If the east wasn't so weak, or they had to play out west, they wouldn't make it to the finals.

This is like the 10th legend disrespecting bron lmao:roll:

What's funny here is that Frazier is also dissing your own teams here (Lakers 2009 and 2010...and possibly even Lakers 2000-2003) because he is speaking of the 60's/70's era vs today's era as a whole.

Yet, you probably don't even realize it.

:facepalm

[Graviton]

Like I said, the LeBron fan kids in here just doesn't understand why no legend or other nba players respect then. Hilarious.:oldlol:

Yes, Heat is incredibly stacked, but it is comparative to the current level of the nba. If the east wasn't so weak, or they had to play out west, they wouldn't make it to the finals.

This is like the 10th legend disrespecting bron lmao:roll:
Yea guess that's why Heat have the best record vs Western teams eh? And the best record vs playoff teams?

Please do showcase the "9 legends" disrespecting Lebron.

[niko]

Some of you are ridiculously in love with Lebron and the Heat. You basically discount anyone who doesn't fawn all over them. It's really strange to me. Nothing about the way Fraizer acts, carries himself, or speaks about 99.9% of the time is bitter, or butthurt, or anti anyone. He doesn't think this streak is historically the greatest thing ever. OMG. WHAT A DICK. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

You do realize Lebron wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, right? You don't need to have conniptions if someone doesn't declare him godlike.

[ripthekik]

What's funny here is that Frazier is also dissing your own teams here (Lakers 2009 and 2010...and possibly even Lakers 2000-2003) because he is speaking of the 60's/70's era vs today's era as a whole.

Yet, you probably don't even realize it.

:facepalm
The 2009 lakers weren't a stacked team that only took advantage of the weak era like the heat. He also could've been specifying this year.

This year the level of competition in the nba is just the lowest in years. Do you not see that? Take off your LeBron goggles

[Euroleague]

The current NBA is an absolute joke. It gets worse and worse in terms of the level of the competition every year.

[Graviton]

The current NBA is an absolute joke. It gets worse and worse in terms of the level of the competition every year.
Well Euroleague GOAT Anthony Parker retired, what do you expect.

[JellyBean]

I wish these old cats would just give these young cats their recognition. I swear these older guys an their ego. :facepalm

[Lebron23]

Hello Riptheprick,

Miami are 24-9 vs. above 0.500 NBA Teams while the Lakers are 12-23.

[ripthekik]

Hello Riptheprick,

Miami are 24-9 vs. above 0.500 NBA Teams while the Lakers are 12-23.
Putang ina mo

[TheMan]

Wasn't that long ago when Heat fans were claiming that the East was weak and there wouldn't be a challenger to their reign anytime soon and some were claiming no team in the West were real challengers, OKC? They got weaker because Harden is gone. SA? lol, old ass team can't hang with them. Memphis? Yeah right. LAL? Another bunch of old dudes and so on and so on...

Now that they are riding a 26 game winning streak and because some folks are saying that they aren't beating impressive teams, now the LBJ/Heat stans are in full force calling their competition "tough":oldlol:Some even go as far as saying a Rondo KG less Boston team as better...:facepalm

Which is it? Is the East weak or strong? Are there really serious challengers out West or are they the pretenders y'all claim they were before this streak got this long?:facepalm

[Lebron23]

The current NBA is an absolute joke. It gets worse and worse in terms of the level of the competition every year.


The Bobcats would beat the best team in the Greek and Euroleague right now.

[NumberSix]

Like I said, the LeBron fan kids in here just doesn't understand why no legend or other nba players respect then. Hilarious.:oldlol:

Yes, Heat is incredibly stacked, but it is comparative to the current level of the nba. If the east wasn't so weak, or they had to play out west, they wouldn't make it to the finals.

This is like the 10th legend disrespecting bron lmao:roll:
Uhhh, you understand that if LeBron isn't impressive because he plays in this "weak" era, that you're boy Kobe is even LESS impressive, right?

[ripthekik]

Uhhh, you understand that if LeBron isn't impressive because he plays in this "weak" era, that you're boy Kobe is even LESS impressive, right?
This is a weak year, not era.

Heat fans like you want to pass it along to other teams:oldlol:
Nope, THIS is the weak year.

[Sarcastic]

I don't know what his point is. The NBA has ALWAYS been a league with only a few top teams at a time that are truly contenders. The league has NEVER been strong on parity.


Except in the 1970s it was.

[Lebron23]

Uhhh, you understand that if LeBron isn't impressive because he plays in this "weak" era, that you're boy Kobe is even LESS impressive, right?

http://media.tumblr.com/6dcf49699fcf6bc485d0cbb97ac6e690/tumblr_inline_mff2yp7DPy1qmxu24.gif

This

LeBron >>> Kobe after this season.

[TheMan]

Except in the 1970s it was.
8 different teams in that decade:biggums:

[Lebron23]

Except in the 1970s it was.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/39/ABA_logo.gif/150px-ABA_logo.gif

Some of the best basketball players in the world played in this league. The 1970's were a weak era. Thank God Bird and Magic resurrected this league in the 1980's.

[tmacattack33]

This is a weak year, not era.

Heat fans like you want to pass it along to other teams:oldlol:
Nope, THIS is the weak year.

Lol, dude just give it up and acknowledge that Lebron is amazing right now

The sooner u admit it, the easier it will be.

Unless u want to keep trying to convince yourself otherwise by using these lame excuses such as this one where you are trying to say that the league just so happened to be at an all time low the same year that Lebron lead his team to an all time win streak record.

And I wonder what you'll say about the league next yr if Lebron dominates. And the following year. And the following year.

[Graviton]

You have to be on crack to think this year is weak, it's stronger than past 5 years when you just had Celtics, Spurs and Lakers as real contenders.

Lakers facing Orlando Magic in the Finals. :oldlol:

Now you have Spurs, OKC, Memphis, Denver and Clippers out West that all have real chance at Finals if healthy.

In the East Miami is stronger than everyone, but the rest aren't weak, if anything East is stronger than ever before, Miami is just that much better. You got Knicks with 2-3 allstar caliber players that just got hit by injuries, Nets with 3 allstar caliber players that are just inconsistent, Pacers with a great roster and multiple Top 10 players at their position, Bulls with an amazing coach and defense along with Noah/Rose, but again injuries. Miami just has Lebron James, you put him on any of these other teams and they would be the #1 seed.

Not Miami's fault they got a once in a generation talent, the other teams still have their own all-stars.

[Lebron23]

You have to be on crack to think this year is weak, it's stronger than past 5 years when you just had Celtics, Spurs and Lakers as real contenders.

Lakers facing Orlando Magic in the Finals. :oldlol:

Now you have Spurs, OKC, Memphis, Denver and Clippers out West that all have real chance at Finals if healthy.

In the East Miami is stronger than everyone, but the rest aren't weak, if anything East is stronger than ever before, Miami is just that much better. You got Knicks with 2-3 allstar caliber players that just got hit by injuries, Nets with 3 allstar caliber players that are just inconsistent, Pacers with a great roster and multiple Top 10 players at their position, Bulls with an amazing coach and defense along with Noah/Rose, but again injuries. Miami just has Lebron James, you put him on any of these other teams and they would be the #1 seed.

Not Miami's fault they got a once in a generation talent, the other teams still have their own all-stars.


repped

[TheMan]

You have to be on crack to think this year is weak, it's stronger than past 5 years when you just had Celtics, Spurs and Lakers as real contenders.

Lakers facing Orlando Magic in the Finals. :oldlol:

Now you have Spurs, OKC, Memphis, Denver and Clippers out West that all have real chance at Finals if healthy.

In the East Miami is stronger than everyone, but the rest aren't weak, if anything East is stronger than ever before, Miami is just that much better. You got Knicks with 2-3 allstar caliber players that just got hit by injuries, Nets with 3 allstar caliber players that are just inconsistent, Pacers with a great roster and multiple Top 10 players at their position, Bulls with an amazing coach and defense along with Noah/Rose, but again injuries. Miami just has Lebron James, you put him on any of these other teams and they would be the #1 seed.

Not Miami's fault they got a once in a generation talent, the other teams still have their own all-stars.
Yeah but if all these teams in the East that on paper are supposed to be stronger but are dealing with injuries, the net result is that they are weaker, right? It would be one thing if Boston, Chicago, NYK and Philly were healthy but they are not, so it is a weak East right now. It's not Miami's fault but it is what it is. If all the Eastern teams were healthy, Miami wouldn't be in a 26 game winning streak, they would be the top dog in the NBA but this streak doesn't happen IMO.

[upside24]

Give me a break, those three wouldn't last for a second in the 90s. Bynum's knees would shatter at the sight of David Robinson, Gasol would be out finessed by Hakeem and young Shaq would show Howard the true meaning of Superman.
Preach.

[ripthekik]

repped
repped because you can't make any sentence of your own, and was waiting for someone to say it for you? :oldlol:

putang ina mo.

[Graviton]

Yeah but if all these teams in the East that on paper are supposed to be strong but are dealing with injuries, the net result is that they are weaker, right? It would be one thing if Boston, Chicago, NYK and Philly were healthy but they are not, so it is a weak East right now. It's not Miami's fault but it is what it is.
They would still be beaten by Miami even if healthy though. These Kobestans are acting like Heat would lose just so they can rip Lebron. :oldlol:

Especialy Ripthedik that keeps mentioning Rose and Bulls. Chicago is my team but even I realize they don't have enough to beat the Heat. They got backdoor swept in 2011 and Heat are MUCH better now, wtf will change?

Even if all East teams were healthy, what would be different? Miami would have a slightly harder time? They would be little more tired? The Western Finalist would be in worse shape after the battle between OKC, Memphis, Spurs, Denver, Clips.

[Graviton]

Funny how ripthedik doesn't talk about those garbage East teams Lakers faced in early 2000s Finals, those teams were worse than any East team from 1-6 right now. :oldlol:

When they did face a good East team in 2004, Kobe got owned and they lost with superior talent.

[Lebron23]

Funny how ripthedik doesn't talk about those garbage East teams Lakers faced in early 2000s Finals, those teams were worse than any East team from 1-6 right now. :oldlol:

When they did face a good East team in 2004, Kobe got owned and they lost with superior talent.

Ripthekobe'sno1d1ckrider don't know anything about basketball. 2012 Celtics, 2011 Chicago Bulls, 2012 Pacers, 2011 Celtics, and even the 2012 Knicks were a better team than the 2000 Pacers, 2001 Sixers, and 2002 Nets.

[ripthekik]

Funny how ripthedik doesn't talk about those garbage East teams Lakers faced in early 2000s Finals, those teams were worse than any East team from 1-6 right now. :oldlol:

When they did face a good East team in 2004, Kobe got owned and they lost with superior talent.
So they went through 3 tough West teams and face the weak East.
Well, Miami zips to the finals from the Weak East, and meets the tired West team that went through tough competition.

:roll:

[chips93]

repped because you can't make any sentence of your own, and was waiting for someone to say it for you? :oldlol:

putang ina mo.

:oldlol:

lebron23 does this shit all the time

[Lebron23]

:oldlol:

lebron23 does this shit all the time


I didn't even negative rep this dude. It's just a waste of time. I already added him back on my ignore list. I repped Graviton, and Glide2k4eva today.

@upside24

I'll rep you tomorrow.

[Kobr]

2011-12: lockout shortened season
2012-13: abysmal Eastern conference. Rose injured, Amar'e injured, Chandler injured, Bynum injured, Garnett injured, Kyrie injured, Drummond injured, Granger and West injuries, Afflalo out for the season, Dwight leaving the conference.

LeBron is just incredibly lucky to have a weak competitive landscape. It's not like he sold his soul to the devil or something.

[Droid101]

2012-13: abysmal Eastern conference. Rose injured, Amar'e injured, Chandler injured, Bynum injured, Garnett injured, Kyrie injured, Drummond injured, Granger and West injuries, Afflalo out for the season, Dwight leaving the conference.
Rondo Injured, Wall Injured. It goes on and on.

[Lebron23]

2011-12: lockout shortened season
2012-13: abysmal Eastern conference. Rose injured, Amar'e injured, Chandler injured, Bynum injured, Garnett injured, Kyrie injured, Drummond injured, Granger and West injuries, Afflalo out for the season, Dwight leaving the conference.

LeBron is just incredibly lucky to have a weak competitive landscape. It's not like he sold his soul to the devil or something.

What's the Lakers record right now?

[TheMan]

They would still be beaten by Miami even if healthy though. These Kobestans are acting like Heat would lose just so they can rip Lebron. :oldlol:

Especialy Ripthedik that keeps mentioning Rose and Bulls. Chicago is my team but even I realize they don't have enough to beat the Heat. They got backdoor swept in 2011 and Heat are MUCH better now, wtf will change?

Even if all East teams were healthy, what would be different? Miami would have a slightly harder time? They would be little more tired? The Western Finalist would be in worse shape after the battle between OKC, Memphis, Spurs, Denver, Clips.
I agree, the Heat would still beat all the East teams even if they were healthy, they just wouldn't be on a 26 game winning streak though. I'm also a Bulls fan and this year's Bulls, even with a healthy Rose can't touch the Heat. I was called a fake fan by NathanJizzle among others for seeing this team without my homer glasses a few weeks ago.

[ripthekik]

2011-12: lockout shortened season
2012-13: abysmal Eastern conference. Rose injured, Amar'e injured, Chandler injured, Bynum injured, Garnett injured, Kyrie injured, Drummond injured, Granger and West injuries, Afflalo out for the season, Dwight leaving the conference.

LeBron is just incredibly lucky to have a weak competitive landscape. It's not like he sold his soul to the devil or something.
You forgot Rondo.

otherwise, spot on. :applause:

[RRR3]

2011-12: lockout shortened season
2012-13: abysmal Eastern conference. Rose injured, Amar'e injured, Chandler injured, Bynum injured, Garnett injured, Kyrie injured, Drummond injured, Granger and West injuries, Afflalo out for the season, Dwight leaving the conference.

LeBron is just incredibly lucky to have a weak competitive landscape. It's not like he sold his soul to the devil or something.
Because Arron Afflalo, Andre Drummond, Kyrie Irving and Andrew Bynum were on teams that would have had any chance against the Heat. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Can't even get your years right, either.

[Kobr]

Rondo Injured, Wall Injured. It goes on and on.

I knew I was forgetting a few. Thanks.

[Graviton]

So they went through 3 tough West teams and face the weak East.
Well, Miami zips to the finals from the Weak East, and meets the tired West team that went through tough competition.

:roll:
The other East teams just don't have Lebron. You put him on Nets, Bulls, Knicks, Pacers and THEY would be the best team while Miami struggles to a 6-8 seed.

You act like Miami is so good despite Lebron, when they are that strong BECAUSE of Lebron.

Why are you even talking shit when Lakers are the 8th seed with a 12-22 record against playoff teams while Miami has a league best 24-9 and the better record vs West teams than East. :oldlol: If only Miami could be in the West to abuse those no defense teams.

You worry about your 1st round exits, not Miami's road to another championship.

[Lebron23]

Because Arron Afflalo, Andre Drummond, Kyrie Irving and Andrew Bynum were on teams that would have had any chance against the Heat. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Can't even get your years right, either.


Dude is a comedian. Kobr is his 2nd account. LeBron will officially surpass his favorite player after this season. The Pistons, Cavaliers, and Sixers aren't even contending teams.

[RRR3]

LeBron apparently is supposed to heal every injured player not on the Heat for his accomplishments to "count" in the minds of people who don't like him.

[ripthekik]

You act like Miami is so good despite Lebron, when they are that strong BECAUSE of Lebron.

How about because of having prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh? :oldlol:
Acting like he's a one man army. Oh, you're really sounding like a Lebron fan right now.. why don't you go ahead and just change the avatar?

[Lebron23]

LeBron apparently is supposed to heal every injured player not on the Heat for his accomplishments to "count" in the minds of people who don't like him.


It's a very stupid logic. The Heat are just the best team in the NBA right now. This team will beat the Spurs, Pacers, Thunder, Clippers, Nuggets, and Grizzlies in a best of 7 series.

24-5 vs. Western Conference Teams
24-9 vs. 0.500 and above NBA Teams
26 games winning streak
They swept the Lakers in the regular season.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[TheMan]

It's a very stupid logic. The Heat are just the best team in the NBA right now. This team will beat the Spurs, Pacers, Thunder, Clippers, Nuggets, and Grizzlies in a best of 7 series.

24-5 vs. Western Conference Teams
24-9 vs. 0.500 and above NBA Teams
26 games winning streak
They swept the Lakers in the regular season.

:applause: :applause: :applause:
You list that as if it were a major accomplishment:lol The rest yeah, the bolded, not so much...

[NumberSix]

When exactly was this mythical era where all the teams were good?

[ThaRegul8r]

stacked comparative to current league level..

Yeah, "stackedness" is only relative to the rest of the league that they're playing in. It's pissible for a team to be stacked relative to the contemporary league but not measure up to past teams, as they're only playing the teams in front of them, not historical teams. How "stacked" a team is relative to past teams is only relevant for hypothetical cross-era comparisons.

[chips93]

I didn't even negative rep this dude. It's just a waste of time. I already added him back on my ignore list. I repped Graviton, and Glide2k4eva today.

@upside24

I'll rep you tomorrow.

:oldlol: @ lebron trying to buy friends with rep

[ripthekik]

When exactly was this mythical era where all the teams were good?
when was it this bad?

2012-13: abysmal Eastern conference. Rose injured, Amar'e injured, Chandler injured, Bynum injured, Rondo out of season, Garnett injured, Kyrie injured, Drummond injured, Granger and West injuries, Afflalo out for the season, Dwight leaving the conference.

[Kobr]

:oldlol: @ lebron trying to buy friends with rep

Rep me back! -lebron23

[Graviton]

How about because of having prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh? :oldlol:
Acting like he's a one man army. Oh, you're really sounding like a Lebron fan right now.. why don't you go ahead and just change the avatar?
Yea, prime 30 year old Wade out with injury every other day, and prime Bosh putting up 17/7 and just carrying the load. :oldlol:

If only Kobe was as good as Lebron, maybe he could lead PRIME Nash, PRIME Howard and PRIME Gasol to the 7th seed.

You are starting to sound like a delusional, bitter tard, remove the sand from your ******. Lebron is leading the team in points, rebounds, minutes and assists, the team is winning mainly because of PRIME James. Not his fault PRIME Kobe is only 8th seed with 3 other Hall of Famers carrying him. :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

Yea, prime 30 year old Wade out with injury every other day, and prime Bosh putting up 17/7 and just carrying the load. :oldlol:

If only Kobe was as good as Lebron, maybe he could lead PRIME Nash, PRIME Howard and PRIME Gasol to the 7th seed.

You are starting to sound like a delusional, bitter tard, remove the sand from your ******. Lebron is leading the team in points, rebounds, minutes and assists, the team is winning mainly because of PRIME James. Not his fault PRIME Kobe is only 8th seed with 3 other Hall of Famers carrying him. :oldlol:
Um.. not even funny at all.:facepalm

Wade this year has been a top 2 SG, having a great efficient season. Only Lebron fans would say otherwise. Yes, I'm looking at pauk and you.
Bosh's numbers will of course go down.. he's no longer the main star of his team, he's adapted, and Lebron's the one with the ball most of the time.

Kobe's in his 17th season.. LEADING a prime but injured Howard, old Nash, and old Gasol. Using hall of famers just show how dumb you are, when you disregard where they are in their careers.

I dont think anyone here has ever challenge the fact that right now Miami's big 3's are in their primes. You're trying too hard boy. Might want to read the 101 for a lebron fanboy first.

[TheMan]

Um.. not even funny at all.:facepalm

Wade this year has been a top 2 SG, having a great efficient season. Only Lebron fans would say otherwise. Yes, I'm looking at pauk and you.
Bosh's numbers will of course go down.. he's no longer the main star of his team, he's adapted, and Lebron's the one with the ball most of the time.

Kobe's in his 17th season.. LEADING a prime but injured Howard, old Nash, and old Gasol. Using hall of famers just show how dumb you are, when you disregard where they are in their careers.

I dont think anyone here has ever challenge the fact that right now Miami's big 3's are in their primes. You're trying too hard boy. Might want to read the 101 for a lebron fanboy first.
You seem to be angry about LeBron's success for some reason.

[rmt]

All-time great teams should transcend specific rules. They should be great in any era under whichever rules. The Heat is not such a team - they would lose in past eras of dominant big men.

For example, Roger Federer would be great in any era, on any surface, with any racquet/ball. Nadal is probably the greatest clay court player ever but would not win any (fast) grass court (on which 3 of the 4 grand slams used to be played) tournaments of the past. Nadal has won his non-French Open titles because they have slowed down the surfaces to allow for more rallying from the baseline.

[PJR]

You seem to be angry about LeBron's success for some reason.

Ripthekik is a straight up weirdo. You know this dude doesn't get any pu$$y in real life. :oldlol:

[Graviton]

Kobe's in his 17th season.. LEADING a prime but injured Howard, old Nash, and old Gasol. Using hall of famers just show how dumb you are, when you disregard where they are in their careers.

I dont think anyone here has ever challenge the fact that right now Miami's big 3's are in their primes. You're trying too hard boy. Might want to read the 101 for a lebron fanboy first.
If Wade is in his prime, so are Gasol and Kobe genius. And Lebron hasn't led injured Wade, injured Bosh before?

You make all the excuses for Kobe, but turn the same shit against Lebron. How do you not see your hypocrisy? Do I need to bump those preseason Laker threads to refresh your memory?

Before it was "Wade is done, Kobe owns him!" "Howard>Lebron!" "Gasol> soft Bosh" "Nash>anything Heat have left!"

Now that we saw how it all turned out you flip the script and excuses roll in. "MIAMI IS TOO STACKED! PRIME WADE AND BOSH! HOWARD SUCKS! GASOL IS SOFT! NASH IS OLD! KOBE CAN"T CARRY THESE SCRUBS! INJURIES!"

[ripthekik]

If Wade is in his prime, so are Gasol and Kobe genius. And Lebron hasn't led injured Wade, injured Bosh before?

You make all the excuses for Kobe, but turn the same shit against Lebron. How do you not see your hypocrisy? Do I need to bump those preseason Laker threads to refresh your memory?

Before it was "Wade is done, Kobe owns him!" "Howard>Lebron!" "Gasol> soft Bosh" "Nash>anything Heat have left!"

Now that we saw how it all turned out you flip the script and excuses roll in. "MIAMI IS TOO STACKED! PRIME WADE AND BOSH! HOWARD SUCKS! GASOL IS SOFT! NASH IS OLD! KOBE CAN"T CARRY THESE SCRUBS! INJURIES!"
:oldlol:

I'm sorry man, this isn't just my opinion. EVERYONE, including heat fans, will acknowledge that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are in their primes. Kobe and co. are not, only Dwight is.

If you can't even see that.. :oldlol:
You just made my day, thanks. You live up to the intelligence of that guy in your avatar :roll:

[Sound and Fury]

The cross-era argument amuses me because it always seems like people are always trying to cherry-pick the way the argument is framed so that "their preferred era" comes out on top. While some of the fundamentals of basketball are the same (ball goes through hoop), a lot of the specifics of the rules are very different and encourage very different skills. Thus, one should be very careful when attempting to compare teams from different eras - they literally developed different skills because the methods that could be employed to win a game have been very different over the years.

Clyde is almost certainly envisioning today's players being forced to play in the NBA of the 1970's. Today's ballhandlers wouldn't be allowed to palm the ball as egregiously as they are now, limiting their ability to get free from the defender with crossover moves - instead, they would have tried to get loose and get called for a palming violation. The quickness of today's players would be mostly negated because Clyde and his teammates would be allowed to use hand-checking to push them off course when they were trying to dribble. All of Miami's outside shooters wouldn't mean a thing because there would be no three-point line. The players' quickness on help defense wouldn't matter because illegal defense rules would force them to stick with their own man anyway instead of roaming the court like Wade does. The players wouldn't be coddled with special nutrition and highly advanced medicine the way they are now, they'd have to play with their bodies aching. Players wouldn't get on a private charter jet, they'd have to fly coach like everyone else. No way are today's players "tough enough to take that" physically or mentally (in Clyde's mind, at least).

Of course, those that dismiss Clyde's comments as completely ridiculous assume that we would be pulling Clyde's Knicks forward into 2013. The better-conditioned, faster athletes of today would take away passing angles and shooting angles that existed in Clyde's era. Clyde and the Knicks would have no answer to the swarming defenses that are allowed today - since none of them were accomplished outside shooters (no three-point line meant no reason to be), they would be trying to rely on spacing themselves out and waiting for an illegal defense call to give them room to operate... which of course isn't going to come. Their "hard fouls" would be called as flagrant fouls. Their hand-checking would be called as fouls, and they'd wind up frustrated because all of the defensive techniques they learned would be illegal.

Basically, what cross-era arguments always fail to account for is that, by and large, the rules of basketball and therefore the skills required to excel change so much from era to era, that "which team would win" in a hypothetical game relies far more on the answer to the question "whose rules are you going to use?" than it does on players and teams from different eras somehow being objectively "better" or "worse" than each other. I think if you time-warped the Heat back into 1972 and forced them to play under the 1972 rules and league style, they'd get thumped most nights. The game now rewards skill and speed, and the game then rewarded strength and power, something most of the Heat players don't have. Similarly, time-warp the '72 Knicks (or Lakers, or whoever) into 2013 and they'd get annihilated by teams that have adapted to rules that place a premium on allowing (offensive) players to move freely and reward distance shooting in a way simply not imagined in 1972.

[lilgodfather1]

All-time great teams should transcend specific rules. They should be great in any era under whichever rules. The Heat is not such a team - they would lose in past eras of dominant big men.

For example, Roger Federer would be great in any era, with any surface, with any racquet/ball. Nadal is probably the greatest clay court player ever but would not win any (fast) grass court (on which 3 of the 4 grand slams used to be played) tournaments of the past. Nadal has won his non-French Open titles because they have slowed down the surfaces to allow for more rallying from the baseline.
Bro we're talking about real sports here, not Tennis. You're analogy holds about as much weight as xing xaio pow chao would be the best table tennis player in any era... Yeah that's your argument.

And this Heat team would be great in any era becaue the have the best player in the NBA on them. Few players have been the best player in the league for a single season, and even fewer have been the best for half a decade.

[Graviton]

:oldlol:

I'm sorry man, this isn't just my opinion. EVERYONE, including heat fans, will acknowledge that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are in their primes. Kobe and co. are not, only Dwight is.

If you can't even see that.. :oldlol:
You just made my day, thanks. You live up to the intelligence of that guy in your avatar :roll:
Yea, EVERYONE in your head. Keep thinking everyone got your back. :oldlol:

Wade isn't in his prime at 31+, otherwise so are Gasol and Kobe at 32-34. Does this mean you still stop criticizing Lebron next year when Wade turns 32 in 10 months (same age as Gasol is now)? And Bosh is 30 in 12 months?

[Sound and Fury]

Bro we're talking about real sports here, not Tennis. You're analogy holds about as much weight as xing xaio pow chao would be the best table tennis player in any era... Yeah that's your argument.

And this Heat team would be great in any era becaue the have the best player in the NBA on them. Few players have been the best player in the league for a single season, and even fewer have been the best for half a decade.
As I said above, I DON'T think the Heat would be good in "any era" especially not the '70s. The Heat wouldn't be able to sag off their man and give quick double teams or play the passing lanes to generate the turnovers they can now... because they would get called for illegal defense in 1972. The '72 players would let the Heat's long range shooters fire away all day... sure they'll hit 39%, but since they're only getting two points per bucket (no three point line), who cares? Most of LeBron's and Wade's "shake-and-bake" moves would result in palming violations, which were quite a bit stricter then. LeBron and Wade wouldn't be able to slash directly into the paint because their defender could hand-check and push them off course. In short, almost all of the Heat's current strengths would be mostly negated if they played under the 1972 rules.

Be careful about claiming "great in any era" - there are VERY few teams that are able to make that claim.

[Joey3000]

Yea, EVERYONE in your head. Keep thinking everyone got your back. :oldlol:

Wade isn't in his prime at 31+, otherwise so are Gasol and Kobe at 32-34. Does this mean you still stop criticizing Lebron next year when Wade turns 32 in 10 months (same age as Gasol is now)? And Bosh is 30 in 12 months?

Ether

[Joey3000]

Man, I'm tired of these "back in my day" players always trying to make it seem like they are that much better than current players. This team is doing great things period.

Them tight a$$ shorts musta cut off fraziers circulation causing massive damage to his braincells at his advanced age.

[King Crossover]

As I said above, I DON'T think the Heat would be good in "any era" especially not the '70s. The Heat wouldn't be able to sag off their man and give quick double teams or play the passing lanes to generate the turnovers they can now... because they would get called for illegal defense in 1972. The '72 players would let the Heat's long range shooters fire away all day... sure they'll hit 39%, but since they're only getting two points per bucket (no three point line), who cares? Most of LeBron's and Wade's "shake-and-bake" moves would result in palming violations, which were quite a bit stricter then. LeBron and Wade wouldn't be able to slash directly into the paint because their defender could hand-check and push them off course. In short, almost all of the Heat's current strengths would be mostly negated if they played under the 1972 rules.

Be careful about claiming "great in any era" - there are VERY few teams that are able to make that claim.
:lol :lol

Those 70s teams would get gashed by Miami. You tellin me a bunch of white bois gon stop em :oldlol:

[DirkNowitzki41]

walt frazier mad as ****. he shouldnt even be talking about weak eras :oldlol:

[Nash]

Graviton, my man, just straight up bossing ripthekik right now.

[ripthekik]

Graviton, my man, just straight up bossing ripthekik right now.
Lmao. You want to tell me Wade's not in his prime too?
These Lebron fans.. continue to surprise me every single day :applause:

[jlip]

The cross-era argument amuses me because it always seems like people are always trying to cherry-pick the way the argument is framed so that "their preferred era" comes out on top. While some of the fundamentals of basketball are the same (ball goes through hoop), a lot of the specifics of the rules are very different and encourage very different skills. Thus, one should be very careful when attempting to compare teams from different eras - they literally developed different skills because the methods that could be employed to win a game have been very different over the years.

Clyde is almost certainly envisioning today's players being forced to play in the NBA of the 1970's. Today's ballhandlers wouldn't be allowed to palm the ball as egregiously as they are now, limiting their ability to get free from the defender with crossover moves - instead, they would have tried to get loose and get called for a palming violation. The quickness of today's players would be mostly negated because Clyde and his teammates would be allowed to use hand-checking to push them off course when they were trying to dribble. All of Miami's outside shooters wouldn't mean a thing because there would be no three-point line. The players' quickness on help defense wouldn't matter because illegal defense rules would force them to stick with their own man anyway instead of roaming the court like Wade does. The players wouldn't be coddled with special nutrition and highly advanced medicine the way they are now, they'd have to play with their bodies aching. Players wouldn't get on a private charter jet, they'd have to fly coach like everyone else. No way are today's players "tough enough to take that" physically or mentally (in Clyde's mind, at least).

Of course, those that dismiss Clyde's comments as completely ridiculous assume that we would be pulling Clyde's Knicks forward into 2013. The better-conditioned, faster athletes of today would take away passing angles and shooting angles that existed in Clyde's era. Clyde and the Knicks would have no answer to the swarming defenses that are allowed today - since none of them were accomplished outside shooters (no three-point line meant no reason to be), they would be trying to rely on spacing themselves out and waiting for an illegal defense call to give them room to operate... which of course isn't going to come. Their "hard fouls" would be called as flagrant fouls. Their hand-checking would be called as fouls, and they'd wind up frustrated because all of the defensive techniques they learned would be illegal.

Basically, what cross-era arguments always fail to account for is that, by and large, the rules of basketball and therefore the skills required to excel change so much from era to era, that "which team would win" in a hypothetical game relies far more on the answer to the question "whose rules are you going to use?" than it does on players and teams from different eras somehow being objectively "better" or "worse" than each other. I think if you time-warped the Heat back into 1972 and forced them to play under the 1972 rules and league style, they'd get thumped most nights. The game now rewards skill and speed, and the game then rewarded strength and power, something most of the Heat players don't have. Similarly, time-warp the '72 Knicks (or Lakers, or whoever) into 2013 and they'd get annihilated by teams that have adapted to rules that place a premium on allowing (offensive) players to move freely and reward distance shooting in a way simply not imagined in 1972.

:applause:
Bill Russell agrees starting at 2:57. (http://www.nba.com/spurs/multimedia/russell_duncan_pt1.html) In this interview with Tim Duncan he says:

"You can only play against your contemporaries. See they should never ask players, 'How would you do against a guy in another era?' That's asking a guy to play against a ghost...Like if someone asked, 'How would you do against Tim Duncan?' Well, the first thing I'd say, 'Well, what rules are you going to use? Rules of the 60's or rules of the 2000's? That'd be unfair to both us."

[1987_Lakers]

List of players who were in the ABA in 1972...

Julius Erving
Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Charlie Scott
George McGinnis
Mel Daniels

I'm only naming the tops dogs. That's alot of talent to be ignored. And lets not forget the 3 new expansion teams that were added in 1970-71 that diluted the league even more.

33 games in a row is amazing however you put it, but the NBA in the 70's in general was probably the lowest point of this league.

[Lebron23]

List of players who were in the ABA in 1972...

Julius Erving
Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Charlie Scott
George McGinnis
Mel Daniels

I'm only naming the tops dogs. That's alot of talent to be ignored. And lets not forget the 3 new expansion teams that were added in 1970-71 that diluted the league even more.

33 games in a row is amazing however you put it, but the NBA in the 70's in general was probably the lowest point of this league.


This

[2010splash]

Old man Frazier is in denial. Heat would destroy any of the greatest teams of the 60s and 70s. Second greatest team ever right here. Only the 96 Bulls are close.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm a big Lebron fan, but yeah this team doesn't strike me as great. He leads the team in too many categories for them to be great. He has to fill too many holes on that team. The streak is a testament to his greatness though.

Bird led the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists, & steals for the Celtics in 1986 and some people consider that team to be the greatest.

The one major flaw for this Miami team is rebounding, they have an elite offense, can lock you down defensively when they want too, they have shooters everywhere, but they can get dominated on the boards at times. If Miami does break the record & win the title I have no doubt they will be considered one of the all time great teams by some, but rebounding is always gonna be their Achilles heel when comparing them to the other all-time great teams.

[Just2McFly]

Man, I'm tired of these "back in my day" players always trying to make it seem like they are that much better than current players. This team is doing great things period.

Them tight a$$ shorts musta cut off fraziers circulation causing massive damage to his braincells at his advanced age.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[ILLsmak]

There are a bunch of bad teams, for sure. But that's how streaks are formed. Feast on cupcakes and win a good game once in awhile.

I think it sounds bitter to say that, though, when you aren't in the NBA now. But yea the NBA is in serious disarray. Especially the East. Anyone who thinks the NBA is strong now is crazy. Maybe with everyone healthy, but people are injured and people are playing like ass.

-Smak

[plowking]

This fact that anyone can agree with any of Walt's comments shows a disturbing lack of brain cells and high level of retards among us on this forum.

Do the Heat have only 2 hall of famers on their team? No. They have more.
The Heat are apparently not a great all time team? Wrong. Even the retards in this thread agreeing with Walt are then saying their stacked compared to the competition. That implies that they're a great all time team. They're a level above their competition.

Its impossible to try and have a decent conversation or get back a sensible reply on here as a Heat fan. Dipshit galore on here.

[TheMan]

This fact that anyone can agree with any of Walt's comments shows a disturbing lack of brain cells and high level of retards among us on this forum.

Do the Heat have only 2 hall of famers on their team? No. They have more.
The Heat are apparently not a great all time team? Wrong. Even the retards in this thread agreeing with Walt are then saying their stacked compared to the competition. That implies that they're a great all time team. They're a level above their competition.

Its impossible to try and have a decent conversation or get back a sensible reply on here as a Heat fan. Dipshit galore on here.
Look, you Heat "fans" are getting way ahead of yourselves. First win the second title, then talk about all time great team...you know there have been more than a couple repeat champs right? The Lakers in the 2000s, a threepeat and a repeat, the Bulls threepeated twice and the Rockets repeated. Lakers won back to back and also the Pistons in the 80s.

What the hell makes this Heat team, that hasn't even won their second title, better then those teams I mentioned?

Get a grip you stans, y'all spewing some real ignorant shit...Let's see what Miami does in the playoffs before we start calling them a historic team:facepalm

[2010splash]

Look, you Heat "fans" are getting way ahead of yourselves. First win the second title, then talk about all time great team...you know there have been more than a couple repeat champs right? The Lakers in the 2000s, a threepeat and a repeat, the Bulls threepeated twice and the Rockets repeated. Lakers won back to back and also the Pistons in the 80s.

What the hell makes this Heat team, that hasn't even won their second title, better then those teams I mentioned?

Get a grip you stans, y'all spewing some real ignorant shit...Let's see what Miami does in the playoffs before we start calling them a historic team:facepalm
Please... Nobody has a chance against this team. They have the repeat on lockdown. You can't fault them for not being able to time travel into the future. We all know they're going to win it all.

The Heat are way better than those teams you mentioned. Simply repeating is not what makes this Heat team legendary. 27 fricking straight wins (will be 34+) does. None of those teams did that.

[TheMan]

Please... Nobody has a chance against this team. They have the repeat on lockdown. You can't fault them for not being able to time travel into the future. We all know they're going to win it all.

The Heat are way better than those teams you mentioned. Simply repeating is not what makes this Heat team legendary. 27 fricking straight wins (will be 34+) does. None of those teams did that.

So if they don't break the record, they aren't an all time great team? OK. It all hinges on if they break the 33 game win streak, not if they repeat...gotcha.

[Kingwillball]

Heat could down as an all time great team. Years from now it could be magic lakers, bird Crltics, Jordan Bulls and Lebrons Heat as a top 5 team ever..

[Mr. Jabbar]

Frazier :applause: :applause: :applause:

Ain't no legends will respect Lebron and this Heat team.

Only Lebron fans don't understand why.

pretty much

[clayton]

You know you suck ass when wise grandpas diss you.

[CP3MVP]

'92/96 Bulls
'89 Pistons
'87 Lakers
'86 Celtics
'00 Lakers
'83 Sixers
'72 Lakers

Top 10 is a tall order, but if the Heat continue their path I can see it happening.

[plowking]

Look, you Heat "fans" are getting way ahead of yourselves. First win the second title, then talk about all time great team...you know there have been more than a couple repeat champs right? The Lakers in the 2000s, a threepeat and a repeat, the Bulls threepeated twice and the Rockets repeated. Lakers won back to back and also the Pistons in the 80s.

What the hell makes this Heat team, that hasn't even won their second title, better then those teams I mentioned?

Get a grip you stans, y'all spewing some real ignorant shit...Let's see what Miami does in the playoffs before we start calling them a historic team:facepalm

You're a Bulls "fan" and probably only became one after Jordan, so you really have no right to emphasize "fan" to anyone.

Just because a team doesn't win a title, doesn't make it not a great team. From personal experience watching my teams, I can tell you that the 05 Miami Heat that didn't win a title were undoubtedly better than the 06 team that did. Same goes with Chelsea, the soccer team I support. In terms of talent and play, they were all time great back in 05-08ish period, but they won the Champions League with their worst side in years.

The thread is more of a prospective thread anyway. Talking about what if.

[shaq2000]

Jeff needs to lengthen user titles to accommodate all the foreign bandwagoners.

CHELSEA|HEAT|49ERS|YANKEES|GALAXY|BRUINS|BARCELONA |PATRIOTS

[Legends66NBA7]

Its impossible to try and have a decent conversation or get back a sensible reply on here as a Heat fan. Dipshit galore on here.

That works both ways.

Just saying.

[CavaliersFTW]

'92/96 Bulls
'89 Pistons
'87 Lakers
'86 Celtics
'00 Lakers
'83 Sixers
'72 Lakers

Top 10 is a tall order, but if the Heat continue their path I can see it happening.
'67 76ers is better than the '72 Lakers and often cited as a top 5 team all-time with a front line debatad as being even better than the '86 Celtics front line...

Also, the '71 Bucks is a top 10 team.

[Harison]

Frazier is correct about Heat not being Top10 team of All-time, only die-hard Lebron fans will argue with that. He is also right about weak competition.

[Legends66NBA7]

'67 76ers is better than the '72 Lakers and often cited as a top 5 team all-time with a front line debatad as being even better than the '86 Celtics front line...

Also, the '71 Bucks is a top 10 team.

Do you believe that the path to the 71 title is considered weak ?

[shallehalle]

Man, I'm tired of these "back in my day" players always trying to make it seem like they are that much better than current players. This team is doing great things period.

Them tight a$$ shorts musta cut off fraziers circulation causing massive damage to his braincells at his advanced age.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

Hmm... Almost all Heat fans in here being insecure. The team is not that great.


I agree. They are good and have learned how to play together but a team with a good big WILL give them fits.

[2010splash]

Deniers here are completely delusional. A team that's won 27 straight games and has a stacked trio of LeBron/Wade/Bosh is not among the greatest in history? Use common sense. This team is easily one of the greatest ever. When all is said and done they'll probably be ranked #2 all time only behind the 1996 Bulls. And even then, there won't be some massive difference between the two.

[fpliii]

I don't know that the split leagues (ABA/NBA) were a factor until the 73-74 season.

Anyhow, if they continue winning games and continue their dominant run through the playoffs (with at least a couple of tough opponents), they'd have to be way up there. Maybe not in the class of the 71-72 Lakers, 85-86 Celtics, 66-67 76ers, 95-96 Bulls (or the 96-97 edition, which also was great), 70-71 Bucks, but they'd definitely compare favorably with the great teams in league history. I think they'd have to crack the top 10 (and perhaps pretty comfortably).

[jlip]

I don't know that the split leagues (ABA/NBA) were a factor until the 73-74 season.

Interesting...What was it about that season that sticks out to you?

[fpliii]

Interesting...What was it about that season that sticks out to you?

http://remembertheaba.com/ABAStatistics/ABANBAExhibitions.html

The ABA really started to perform well in those contests starting with that season. Given they were exhibitions, but it's the closest thing to a cross-league barometer that we have available. G.O.A.T also had some good posts on the topic a few months ago, I'll look for the thread when I have a chance.

[steve]

http://remembertheaba.com/ABAStatistics/ABANBAExhibitions.html

The ABA really started to perform well in those contests starting with that season. Given they were exhibitions, but it's the closest thing to a cross-league barometer that we have available. G.O.A.T also had some good posts on the topic a few months ago, I'll look for the thread when I have a chance.

I'm not sure it's necessary to go to that point when the leagues were at their closest for Lebron's point to be valid because his point was basically there was a lot of talent in the ABA already that would've made the NBA stronger. The teams weren't quite equal, but there was a lot of talent in the ABA even by that point. Also, take into the consideration that the NBA had just expanded the year before even with the ABA noticeably increasing in talent. But I think the larger point is that there are always reasons to diminish what a team is doing and nitpick reasons why they aren't as great as a team from another season (you could make a similar argument with the '96/'97 Bulls as the '72 Lakers), but they're still winning and the differentiation between competition really hasn't changed dramatically enough (or at all really) to nitpick when a great team does something historic. Granted, this will all be moot if the Heat doesn't win a title, but right now they seem to be on their way to be included in the discussion of all-time great teams.

[fpliii]

I'm not sure it's necessary to go to that point when the leagues were at their closest for Lebron's point to be valid because his point was basically there was a lot of talent in the ABA already that would've made the NBA stronger. The teams weren't quite equal, but there was a lot of talent in the ABA even by that point. Also, take into the consideration that the NBA had just expanded the year before even with the ABA noticeably increasing in talent. But I think the larger point is that there are always reasons to diminish what a team is doing and nitpick reasons why they aren't as great as a team from another season (you could make a similar argument with the '96/'97 Bulls as the '72 Lakers), but they're still winning and the differentiation between competition really hasn't changed dramatically enough (or at all really) to nitpick when a great team does something historic. Granted, this will all be moot if the Heat doesn't win a title, but right now they seem to be on their way to be included in the discussion of all-time great teams.

Eh, I disagree with you on the ABA points (73-74, 74-75, 75-76 have to be the three weakest seasons in the shotclock era), but have no problem with the bolded.

I'm a bit of a Wade stan so it'd be neat for him to add this great season to his resume, and it's always fun to watch history unfold live, so I'm all for them continuing this run.

[steve]

Eh, I disagree with you on the ABA points (73-74, 74-75, 75-76 have to be the three weakest seasons in the shotclock era), but have no problem with the bolded.

I'm a bit of a Wade stan so it'd be neat for him to add this great season to his resume, and it's always fun to watch history unfold live, so I'm all for them continuing this run.

Oh, I don't disagree with the point you made about the ABA, but it was around that time when the talent in the ABA started to affect the NBA and it was just progressively more defined as the years went on. It's just a strict player talent thing.

And I agree, it's neat to see great players on truly great teams. I kind of think that's always been something that's held Tim Duncan back in the eyes of some people. "If he was such a great player, why wasn't he on a truly great team."

Another thing I've been thinking about in regards to the Heat being "stacked." Would any team with Lebron be considered stacked if he was playing with two other legit All-Stars by virtue of having Lebron (especially Lebron at his current level)? Like if Lebron played with Deron Williams and Al Horford, are they Heat still considered stacked?