"Proof of Heaven" - best selling book by athiest neurosurgeon that had an NDE

[-p.tiddy-]

anyone familiar with this or read it?

http://www.eternea.org/Eben_Alexander/biography_eben.htm


Dr. Eben Alexander, III, M.D.

someone told me about this book last night, I didn't know about...apparently this man was a atheist Dr. who also assumed that NDEs were products of the brain that we just hadn't been able to explain yet (like many posters here). Then he gets a rare brain desease, "bacterial meningitis-encephalitis" and goes into a coma and flat-lines...comes back a believer in God.

And like everyone that has an NDE, he comes back saying that the afterlife is "more real" than life here on Earth...and there is no one that can tell him that what he had as a dream of some sort.

I will be buying this book :D

[Stuckey]

why pay to read

theres hundreds of NDE stories you can read online for free

[Nanners]

Misleading title for this book, should be called "how i changed my *opinion* of heaven" or something along those lines.

[-p.tiddy-]

why pay to read

theres hundreds of NDE stories you can read online for free
and I have read many...

there aren't that many written by neurosurgeons though


according to the person that told me about this book, he brings science into the book A LOT...which I think would be refreshing to read about this from someone that is very familiar with the brain, rather than just an average Joe.

[-p.tiddy-]

Misleading title for this book, should be called "how i changed my *opinion* of heaven" or something along those lines.
it isn't meant to be literal obviously...just a book title

[rufuspaul]

This book was being touted heavily awhile back by some of my super religious friends on Facebook so I ignored it (and I believe in God).

[-p.tiddy-]

I'm almost certain we discussed this book before.

You hittin the bottle again? Little stressed from that baby?
sorry, must have missed that...many of those past threads had a dozen posters throwing things my way so hard to take it all in

[Balla_Status]

Not this shit again

[-p.tiddy-]

This book was being touted heavily awhile back by some of my super religious friends on Facebook so I ignored it (and I believe in God).
from what I was told this man is not relgious...I think he does mention Christ and his importance but he is not Christian...claims that all religions point to the same principles...

[-p.tiddy-]

Not this shit again
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb90ajJo821rw5rky.gif

[Budadiiii]

This guy duped gullible suckers for a small fortune.

lol.

[Draz]

I'll look into it.

[Draz]

This guy duped gullible suckers for a small fortune.

lol.


Do you know how much a neurosurgeon earns?

[-p.tiddy-]

This guy duped gullible suckers for a small fortune.

lol.
wrong...he runs a nonprofit organization for this...


Through his nonprofit organization, Eternea, Dr. Alexander has dedicated himself to sharing this information, promoting further research on the unifying elements of science and spirituality, and encouraging people to be inspired by the power of unconditional love in their daily lives and in their work in their communities.


like almost all NDEers, he came out devoting his life to charity work...that is super common for people who go through this

[DonDadda59]

Not this shit again

Tiddy at it again :rockon:

http://cdn-media.hollywood.com/images/l/philip-seymour-hoffman-master-teaser.jpg

[-p.tiddy-]

I am at it again...


really though, I don't understand why this isn't a fascinating subject to everyone...atheists included

[CasterL]

As an agnostic leaning towards atheist I do find this subject interesting. Will probs read.

[SpecialQue]

This book will convert nobody who doesn't already want to be converted.

[Riddler]

really though, I don't understand why this isn't a fascinating subject to everyone.


That's what I said about 9/11... but I guess people are gonna believe whatever the hell they want to,... or not give a $hit.


if you buy that book, let me borrow it after you read it.

[miller-time]

That's what I said about 9/11... but I guess people are gonna believe whatever the hell they want to,... or not give a $hit.


if you buy that book, let me borrow it after you read it.

There are thousands of ideas though that people would say the same thing about. Everyone can't be interested in everything especially when the details are spurious at best.

[-p.tiddy-]

There are thousands of ideas though that people would say the same thing about. Everyone can't be interested in everything especially when the details are spurious at best.
this phenomenon is facisnating no matter what angle you take...

-we know that the people that have NDEs are profoundly changed...of the thousands of stories out there, I have yet to read a single one where the person that had one says "you know, maybe that was just a dream"...and if anyone was to say that? It would be an atheist neurosurgeon.

-we know that everyone has the same experience for the most part...so if they are a "dream" it is facsinating that our brains always produce the same dream for everyone...

-we know that NDEs give people that ability to seperate their consciousness from their brain...we know this from the hundreds of accounts where people can repeat conversations as well as other things that happened in places where there body wasn't located.

-we know that NDEs give people who were born blind the ability to see for the first time in their lives...


if you think that NDEs are a product of the brain, this phenomenon is STILL amazing...

[KingBeasley08]

Thing that interests me the most is the Out of Body Experience. That's some spooky shit. You're like a freaking ghost temporarily lol

[Is He Ill]

Thing that interests me the most is the Out of Body Experience. That's some spooky shit. You're like a freaking ghost temporarily lol

I have OBEs all the time when I'm tired from too much work. A month ago I ended up having like 3 in a 5 day period.

I've heard some really good things about the book from a couple of my friends. I think that the guy is full of it, but it will probably be an entertaining read.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

See i can never trust a guy trying to sell a book. He is biased, he has reason to pretend he believes something or had some big revelation. An atheist neurosurgeon is the perfect person to make you go "ooh wow HE believes it". I just dont buy it.

[miller-time]

I'm reading it now, it is interesting, but as a reader it is kind of hard to separate fact from fiction. I'm up to chapter 10 though, so not quite halfway yet.

He is easy to read though. So far I've found the medical facts far more interesting than his ND experiences lol.

[Draz]

Thing that interests me the most is the Out of Body Experience. That's some spooky shit. You're like a freaking ghost temporarily lol

The thing about this, is no one really truly knows if this is true or not.. It's not something that can be caught on camera and shown as evidence. When we look at interviews and story's, we really need to give our brain and heart a reason to want to believe. It's something we should be open about though.

[Patrick Chewing]

I'm reading it now, it is interesting, but as a reader it is kind of hard to separate fact from fiction. I'm up to chapter 10 though, so not quite halfway yet.

He is easy to read though. So far I've found the medical facts far more interesting than his ND experiences lol.

Haven't read the book and I'm an NDE believer as well as a believer in God and all that, but if I'm not mistaken, the medical facts that he provides are the fact that medicine and science cannot explain NDE's.

[Geriatric]

Eternea huh?

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/tumblr_mb2kelB83t1qbcs46o1_500.jpg

This must have been Larry Bird's NDE then...


(I know, I know, Eternia is spelled differently. Just play along.)

[-p.tiddy-]

I remember now, I was saying he could have easily made it up and you couldn't even fathom that as a possibility.
Yes because you have to actually flat line to have one...its really hard to believe someone decides to make up an elaborate story the very moment they come back from flat lining in ER.

Also, it is pretty excepted that this phenomena really happens to people...perhaps the are a couple liars out there, but def not all of them...

[shlver]

Haven't read the book and I'm an NDE believer as well as a believer in God and all that, but if I'm not mistaken, the medical facts that he provides are the fact that medicine and science cannot explain NDE's.
No they can. Turning to the supernatural and ignoring scientific and practical explanations is not credible despite it coming from the mouth of a neurosurgeon.

[-p.tiddy-]

No, I'm not trying to have the same argument we had a few months ago that you forgot about. I'm just saying you have a shitty memory.
Yeah, maybe so :)

[-p.tiddy-]

No they can. Turning to the supernatural and ignoring scientific and practical explanations is not credible despite it coming from the mouth of a neurosurgeon.
No they can not...not right now anyway.

He is trying to combine science and spirituality with his nonprofit organization...there is a science behind "the other side...its just a different plane with a different science book.

The existence of other demintions isnt out of the realm of science

[shlver]

No they can not...not right now anyway.

He is trying to combine science and spirituality with his nonprofit organization...there is a science behind "the other side...its just a different plane with a different science book.

The existence of other demintions isnt out of the realm of science
I don't have the time to read the book. If you can take the time to outline his scientific points that would be nice.
If not, then read actual papers on anesthesia awareness and biochemical cascades after flatlining and resulting apoptosis. there's plenty of papers that provides practical explanations for NDE's and insights into the process of brain death. If you have not read any of these papers, then you are in no position to say anything about what science has to say on NDE's.

[-p.tiddy-]

I don't have the time to read the book. If you can take the time to outline his scientific points that would be nice.
If not, then read actual papers on anesthesia awareness and biochemical cascades after flatlining and resulting apoptosis. there's plenty of papers that provides practical explanations for NDE's and insights into the process of brain death. If you have not read any of these papers, then you are in no position to say anything about what science has to say on NDE's.
Shlver everything trying to explain NDEs right now is theory...there is nothing that every excepts.

It would go against science to rule anything out, including the existence of another plane.

[Blue&Orange]

I am at it again...


really though, I don't understand why this isn't a fascinating subject to everyone...atheists included
Because not everyone is retarded


while in a meningitis-induced coma in 2008 proves that consciousness is independent of the brain, that death is an illusion, and that an eternity of perfect splendor awaits us beyond the grave — complete with angels, clouds, and departed relatives, but also including butterflies and beautiful girls in peasant dress.
:roll:


It would go against science to rule anything out, including the existence of another plane.

Alexander’s book and publicity campaign have been criticized by scientists including neuroscientist Sam Harris who found his account “alarmingly unscientific” and who has written that “Everything — absolutely everything — in Alexander’s account rests on repeated assertions that his visions of heaven occurred while his cerebral cortex was “shut down,” “inactivated,” “completely shut down,” “totally offline,” and “stunned to complete inactivity.” “The evidence he provides for this claim is not only inadequate — it suggests that he doesn’t know anything about the relevant brain science.”[4] “Even in cases where the brain is alleged to have shut down, its activity must return if the subject is to survive and describe the experience. In such cases, there is generally no way to establish that the NDE occurred while the brain was offline.”[5] Neurologist and writer Oliver Sacks agreed with Harris, saying that "to deny the possibility of any natural explanation for an NDE, as Dr. Alexander does, is more than unscientific — it is antiscientific."..."The one most plausible hypothesis in Dr. Alexander's case...is that his NDE occurred not during his coma, but as he was surfacing from the coma and his cortex was returning to full function. It is curious that he does not allow this obvious and natural explanation, but instead insists on a supernatural one."


What's next? Dreams are real?

[shlver]

Shlver everything trying to explain NDEs right now is theory...there is nothing that every excepts.

It would go against science to rule anything out, including the existence of another plane.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with this incoherent post.

[-p.tiddy-]

That wasn't hard to understand at all...

Shvler, let's say this guy is telling the truth and in his head HE KNOWS FOR FACT that he saw an afterlife and even God, but obviously he can't prove it. What do you expect him to say? Is he supposed to lie and act as though it might have been a dream? Even though it felt more "real" than life on Earth?

[miller-time]

This paragraph stood out to me


It will take me the rest of my life, and then some, to unpack what I learned up there.
The knowledge given me was not “taught” in the way that a history lesson or math
theorem would be. Insights happened directly, rather than needing to be coaxed and
absorbed. Knowledge was stored without memorization, instantly and for good. It
didn’t fade, like ordinary information does, and to this day I still possess all of it, much
more clearly than I possess the information that I gained over all of my years in school.
That’s not to say that I can get to this knowledge just like that. Because now that
I’m back here in the earthly realm, I have to process it through my limited physical
body and brain. But it’s there. I feel it, laid into my very being. For a person like me
who had spent his whole life working hard to accumulate knowledge and understanding
the old-fashioned way, the discovery of this more advanced level of learning was,
alone, enough to give me food for thought for ages to come . . .

This is the one thing that gets me about these cases. They never actually bring anything back beyond vague notions of interconnectedness and time being an illusion. Beyond that they never have a solution to a problem that we didn't know about. Not one thing that gives us more information about this world. Sure we get plenty of stuff about the next world but none of that is verifiable. Granted he says that processing the information is limited by his brain's ability, but come on. If you can understand different depths of the afterlife and the beauty of the metaphysical surely you can give us an original thought about something in this world too?

It is easy for brains to come up with fictional constructs, it is much more difficult for them to put together actual working models of reality.

[-p.tiddy-]

This paragraph stood out to me



This is the one thing that gets me about these cases. They never actually bring anything back beyond vague notions of interconnectedness and time being an illusion. Beyond that they never have a solution to a problem that we didn't know about. Not one iota that gives us more information about this world. Sure we get plenty of stuff about the next world but none of that is verifiable. Granted he says that processing the information is limited by his brain's ability, but come on. If you can understand different depths of the afterlife and the beauty of the metaphysical surely you can give us an original thought about something in this world too?
because many of them claim to have seen the future you expect them to come back with the cure for cancer or something? ha, never thought of that.

perhaps that would mess up our destiny or something...


Miller, let me ask you, do you beleive that eveything this man put into that book he truly believes himself? Does he come off as sincere/genuine?

[miller-time]

because many of them claim to have seen the future you expect them to come back with the cure for cancer or something? ha, never thought of that.

It doesn't even have to be something that big. Just a tidbit of new information. Not philosophical or spiritual, but natural.


Miller, let me ask you, do you beleive that eveything this man put into that book he truly believes himself? Does he come off as sincere/genuine?

He seems genuine. I don't doubt he had those experiences and he believes they are real. I just think they aren't really that interesting or original. I haven't finished the book yet but the parts I have found most interesting were from his own life, his adoption, his medical career, his experience of having meningitis. The NDE is more elaborate than most, but it still doesn't me think it could be anything but a product of the human mind.

[-p.tiddy-]

It doesn't even have to be something that big. Just a tidbit of new information. Not philosophical or spiritual, but natural.
can you give me an example of some sort?...because these people do bring back all sorts of info, but yes nothing that is going to change medicine or advance the auto industry or anything like that.


He seems genuine. I don't doubt he had those experiences and he believes they are real. I just think they aren't really that interesting or original. I haven't finished the book yet but the parts I have found most interesting were from his own life, his adoption, his medical career, his experience of having meningitis. The NDE is more elaborate than most, but it still doesn't me think it could be anything but a product of the human mind.
Do you not find it fascinating that he was a nay sayer like yourself and then after having one he is a believer?

do you know that if you had one yourself you would most likely be a believer?...there are no NDEers that come back saying "that was probably just a product of my brain"...they come back saying that the brain is a handi-cap to them...we are trapped in it.

[miller-time]

can you give me an example of some sort?...because these people do bring back all sorts of info, but yes nothing that is going to change medicine or advance the auto industry or anything like that.

It could be anything. A fact about sub atomic particles or the age of the universe or how the moon was formed or even something more profound like how and where life began or the solution to an unsolved mathematics problem.


Do you not find it fascinating that he was a nay sayer like yourself and then after having one he is a believer?

I don't think that it is that fascinating really. The guy went through a harrowing experience, it would be weirder if he had no reaction to it at all. While he is a neurosurgeon he is also still a human being. He is no more capable of operating under bizarre circumstances than anyone else. He is no less susceptible to delusions and hallucinations than anyone else.


do you know that if you had one yourself you would most likely be a believer?...there are no NDEers that come back saying "that was probably just a product of my brain"...they come back saying that the brain is a handi-cap to them...we are trapped in it.

I don't know that, but I'd agree it is possible. I'm not saying the experience isn't amazing or profound. As I said, you would expect a dramatic outcome. But at the same time that doesn't mean that they were real.

I have a friend who had psychosis, trust me, the things that happened to him in his mind were as real to him as anything else he had experienced in his life. He even says now that his memories of those events still feel like they were real and if he didn't understand that they were hallucinations and delusions he would probably still think they actually happened. Because in a way they did happen. His brain formed the memories like it does for any other experience. Doesn't mean they happened though does it?

[shlver]

That wasn't hard to understand at all...

Shvler, let's say this guy is telling the truth and in his head HE KNOWS FOR FACT that he saw an afterlife and even God, but obviously he can't prove it. What do you expect him to say? Is he supposed to lie and act as though it might have been a dream? Even though it felt more "real" than life on Earth?
Of course not. But his background in science as a neurosurgeon lends no credence to his beliefs.
Why are you so insistent on avoiding the very plausible scientific explanations? Seriously, go do research about the plausible physiological explanations for the "symptoms" of NDE.

[Patrick Chewing]

Of course not. But his background in science as a neurosurgeon lends no credence to his beliefs.
Why are you so insistent on avoiding the very plausible scientific explanations? Seriously, go do research about the plausible physiological explanations for the "symptoms" of NDE.


In this day and age, plausibility doesn't always lead to believability. You just proved his point that you believe in plausible evidence which leads to it becoming a theory of NDE's. What the good doctor who wrote this book is stating, is that in his field of expertise, he has no plausible evidence to prove that science is behind our NDE's since he is a doctor and he is bound to look for a scientific explanation first.

We can argue about all the plausible arguments you want, but there is yet to be a scientific explanation for dreams, much less NDE's.

[shlver]

In this day and age, plausibility doesn't always lead to believability. You just proved his point that you believe in plausible evidence which leads to it becoming a theory of NDE's. What the good doctor who wrote this book is stating, is that in his field of expertise, he has no plausible evidence to prove that science is behind our NDE's since he is a doctor and he is bound to look for a scientific explanation first.

We can argue about all the plausible arguments you want, but there is yet to be a scientific explanation for dreams, much less NDE's.
Nope. Actual observed medical phenomena that reproduced symptoms of NDE. Look up anesthesia awareness.
It is not "just a theory" as you and primetime like to put it. It's apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.
A neurosurgeon finds no plausible evidence that science is behind our NDEs.
Like really... People use this kind of connotation? "is the sky blue because of science?"

[-p.tiddy-]

Lol, shlver I have done extensive research on this and have read up on every theory there is....there is nothing that fully explains them...the OBE in particular is impossible to explain

Never mind the fact that they have been shown to happen WITHOUT BRAIN WAVES....meaning, it is impossible they were dreamed, the brain isn't functioning at all...look up Pam Reynolds.

There are numerous scientists as well as doctors that are completely baffled by NDEs...and you walk into this thread and snicker at them as though you have them all figured out is an eye roller.

[-p.tiddy-]

There are a couple drugs that can produce similar out of body type effects but they aren't the same as NDEs where you get the life review, meet spirits, are able to float from room to room or even across the globe, ect

Blind people can see for the first time after an NDE...that can't be explained by a dream...they have never seen what a human looks like until their NDE.

[Patrick Chewing]

Nope. Actual observed medical phenomena that reproduced symptoms of NDE. Look up anesthesia awareness.
It is not "just a theory" as you and primetime like to put it. It's apparent that you have no idea what you're talking about.
A neurosurgeon finds no plausible evidence that science is behind our NDEs.
Like really... People use this kind of connotation? "is the sky blue because of science?"


I have no idea what I'm talking about? You see, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply telling you that everything you're referring to is a theory. There is no denying that. Just like the "Theory of Evolution", yet millions take it as fact. You're too headstrong on believing it your way that you're refusing to accept the fact that when it comes to NDE's, which has nothing to do with anesthesia awareness, modern science cannot explain it. We are talking about people having religious and spiritual out of body experiences all over the world that answer questions that were other wise unknown. I fully expect another retort explaining to me how I'm wrong and theories are right.

[shlver]

Lol, shlver I have done extensive research on this and have read up on every theory there is....there is nothing that fully explains them...the OBE in particular is impossible to explain
No you haven't. Until you can tell me about brain physiology and its implication on how some NDE symptoms can be reproduced, then you have not "researched it extensively." Watching youtube videos and reading websites is not considered extensive research.

Never mind the fact that they have been shown to happen WITHOUT BRAIN WAVES....meaning, it is impossible they were dreamed, the brain isn't functioning at all...look up Pam Reynolds.
EEG's have shown the inability to detect some brain activity.

There are numerous scientists as well as doctors that are completely baffled by NDEs...and you walk into this thread and snicker at them as though you have them all figured out is an eye roller.
Do you even read my posts? I didn't suggest that anywhere. I pointed you to several physiological conditions that reproduce symptoms of NDE's. This is scientific evidence. If you turn to a supernatural cause and ignore the scientific explanations, then that is unscientific. Once again, his background in science as an MD lends no credence to his beliefs.

[Patrick Chewing]

Here's a good article on a couple of scientists debunking the whole NDE phenomena: http://www.livescience.com/16019-death-experiences-explained.html


However, as you get to the end of the article, you realize they filled your head with probabilities and improbabilities based on diseases or illnesses that mimic what NDE patients experience. They ignore the mere fact that while a Parkinson's patient may see an apparition, they are still alive, yet people that have experienced an NDE are clinically dead and when resuscitated can recollect things that were practically impossible.

I'm trying to be as objective as possible in looking for scientific research to explain the symptoms of NDE's and these are the type of articles I'm finding. In truth, it is a mere impossibility to study this. We would have to delve into a realm of weird science and have some test subjects volunteer to die.

[miller-time]

EEG's have shown the inability to detect some brain activity.

Doesn't even matter. Her NDE didn't occur when her brain stopped responding. It was both before and after that part of the operation. They only stopped her brain for a 5 or 6 minute window (from memory give or take a minute or two), everything else happens over a matter of hours and during the periods of time when her brain was still functioning.

[shlver]

Doesn't even matter. Her NDE didn't occur when her brain stopped responding. It was both before and after that part of the operation. They only stopped her brain for a 5 or 6 minute window (from memory give or take a minute or two), everything else happens over a matter of hours and during the periods of time when her brain was still functioning.
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't have the time to actually look her up.

[Balla_Status]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb90ajJo821rw5rky.gif

:oldlol:

**** you for making me laugh.

Dooms needs to make a 9/11 thread.

[Mamba]

I'm trying to be as objective as possible in looking for scientific research to explain the symptoms of NDE's and these are the type of articles I'm finding. In truth, it is a mere impossibility to study this. We would have to delve into a realm of weird science and have some test subjects volunteer to die.
if there is a 5/6(russian roulette) possibility of me being revived i would volunteer for this test.

[-p.tiddy-]

Doesn't even matter. Her NDE didn't occur when her brain stopped responding. It was both before and after that part of the operation. They only stopped her brain for a 5 or 6 minute window (from memory give or take a minute or two), everything else happens over a matter of hours and during the periods of time when her brain was still functioning.
That is a theory by nay Sayers...


She was able to describe all the instruments used on her during the operation without ever seeing them...(like most NDEs)...how does a dream do that?

[-p.tiddy-]

No you haven't. Until you can tell me about brain physiology and its implication on how some NDE symptoms can be reproduced, then you have not "researched it extensively." Watching youtube videos and reading websites is not considered extensive research.

EEG's have shown the inability to detect some brain activity.

Do you even read my posts? I didn't suggest that anywhere. I pointed you to several physiological conditions that reproduce symptoms of NDE's. This is scientific evidence. If you turn to a supernatural cause and ignore the scientific explanations, then that is unscientific. Once again, his background in science as an MD lends no credence to his beliefs.
A true NDE has never been reproduced without a flat line...there is no drug that can do it, only drugs that do similar effects.

Really I don't think you have any idea what NDEs do to people...they come out of them completely different people altogether. Many quit their jobs and devote themselves to charity work, is there a drug out there doing that to people? No one has ever claimed one to be a dream after having one. They see loved ones in spirit form that they KNOW FOR FACT was them...they see God, they go through various levels of spirit universe, can all that be reproduced on a regular? No it can't.

Why would our brains give everyone the same dream? That is unexplainable by science right now. Everyone is telling the same story regardless of race age religion, etc...

[rufuspaul]

I have OBEs all the time when I'm tired from too much work. A month ago I ended up having like 3 in a 5 day period.

I've heard some really good things about the book from a couple of my friends. I think that the guy is full of it, but it will probably be an entertaining read.


:biggums:

[-p.tiddy-]

Documentary o Pam Reynolds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUD6kfEcgLc&playnext=1&list=PLB3VkL0_ujazGdCM3riPAAXLcu6opsuY6&feature=results_main)

you should watch shvler...and miller

both sides are argued...

[-p.tiddy-]

http://store.noetic.org/images/products/776.jpg


^^^ this book written by an Oxford grad came to the clonclusion that there is no current scientific theory that holds up...

Article by him (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/science/why-materialist-science-cannot-explain-near-death-experiences-177019-page-3.html)

article ends with this after going over many of the theories:


I examined all of the other attempts to explain away the NDE as the product of a malfunctioning brain, and ultimately not one stood up to critical scrutiny. The conclusion I finally arrived at was that the NDE is exactly what it appears to be: a genuine separation of mind from body during the early stages of biological death.



here are the main problems with the current theories of NDEs:

-they don't explain the seperation of consciousness from the body, in fact science is completely clueless on why we are concious at all, there is no explaination for it currently, our consciousness is a mystery.

-there is NO NDEer that is willing to accept them! If you were to approach any NDEer and say "that was a product of your brain shutting down" they would say "no it wasn't, I know what I saw is real, you don't understand". That is a big deal that pretty much 100% of them reject those theories, at what point do we who have not experienced this decide to stop trying to tell them what happened to them and instead actually listen to them and maybe even believe them?

[Take Your Lumps]

-there is NO NDEer that is willing to accept them! If you were to approach any NDEer and say "that was a product of your brain shutting down" they would say "no it wasn't, I know what I saw is real, you don't understand". That is a big deal that pretty much 100% of them reject those theories, at what point do we who have not experienced this decide to stop trying to tell them what happened to them and instead actually listen to them and maybe even believe them?

Any time I get summoned for jury duty, I inform them I'm not able to convict anyone of a crime based on eye witness testimony. I'm promptly sent home.

You're talking about things people aren't even seeing with their eyes. And jumping to conclusions about the nature of the universe based on those eye witness claims.

Are you as quick to believe people who say they are summoned into alien spaceships and report "lost time"? I've seen and heard all kinds of people claim all kinds of things.

If this phenomena is ever verified under strict laboratory conditions as being "real" then you'd have my attention. Until then, I think I'll opt to take any eye witness reports from evolved apes with one giant grain of salt.

[-p.tiddy-]

Any time I get summoned for jury duty, I inform them I'm not able to convict anyone of a crime based on eye witness testimony. I'm promptly sent home.

You're talking about things people aren't even seeing with their eyes. And jumping to conclusions about the nature of the universe based on those eye witness claims.

Are you as quick to believe people who say they are summoned into alien spaceships and report "lost time"? I've seen and heard all kinds of people claim all kinds of things.

If this phenomena is ever verified under strict laboratory conditions as being "real" then you'd have my attention. Until then, I think I'll opt to take any eye witness reports from evolved apes with one giant grain of salt.
first of all it is generally accepted that these people are being honest by everyone, doctors and scientists alike, regardless of weather or not they are brain produced or not. Unlike alien abductions which are rarely ever accepted as honest.

second, to have an NDE you have to have flatlined in a hospital...not anyone can claim to have gone through this, you have had serious shit happen to you. ANYONE can claim they were abducted by aliens...

third, like I said 100% of NDEers believe what they experinced is real and there is no one that can tell them otherwise. Is that not substaintial to you? That not one of them has ever said "you know that doctor is probably right, that was probably all a dream".

forth, Alien abductions come in all different types...NDEs are generally all the same regardless of who you are. Again, how is it that our brains are giving everyone the same dreams? Why is there no NDE that involves random shit like old friends from the past, or a fckin speghetti monster? you know the weird shit that is normally found in dreams? Why is it ALWAYS spirits of dead loved ones and God?

[Jello]

Chris Carter was educated at Oxford University in Philosophy and Economics
lmao:lol :lol :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm

[rufuspaul]

Alien abductions come in all different types


Really? I thought they all followed the same pattern:

1. Lost time
2. Paralysis
3. Exam by creatures with big heads.
4. Ass probing.

[-p.tiddy-]

Really? I thought they all followed the same pattern:

1. Lost time
2. Paralysis
3. Exam by creatures with big heads.
4. Ass probing.
ha...yeah I guess many of them are very similar (shit maybe some are real idk)...but still my other points stand

I could claim I was abducted by aliens right now if I wanted...but I couldn't do the same with an NDE because I didn't flatline in ER.

[-p.tiddy-]

lmao:lol :lol :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm
Oxford is arguablly the best school on the planet...right up there with Harvard

[Lebowsky]

Oxford is arguablly the best school on the planet...right up there with Harvard
I would guess he's laughing at the fact the guy's education has nothing to do with empirical science.

[Jello]

Oxford is arguablly the best school on the planet...right up there with Harvard
You're arguably worse than IamRambo in terms of not knowing what you're talking about. His school doesn't matter if his area of expertise is something totally unrelated to what he's examining.

[-p.tiddy-]

sure it matters, he is clearly an intelligent man it isn't like he is some dude working at Starbucks who wrote a book on the side...

I don't know why he decided to tackle this subject but I bet he has creditials of some form for this...

[Jello]

sure it matters, he is clearly an intelligent man it isn't like he is some dude working at Starbucks who wrote a book on the side...

I don't know why he decided to tackle this subject but I bet he has creditials of some form for this...
No appeal to authority requires expertise on the subject, this guy obviously does not have any background in neuroscience.

[-p.tiddy-]

Chris Carter interview (http://www.skeptiko.com/chris-carter-tackles-near-death-experience-science/)

this "subject" has no expertise...it isn't like there are NDE classes for science majors...neuroscience has no answer for NDEs, no one does...just ask the author in the OP

[Jello]

Chris Carter interview (http://www.skeptiko.com/chris-carter-tackles-near-death-experience-science/)

this "subject" has no expertise...it isn't like there are NDE classes for science majors...neuroscience has no answer for NDEs, no one does...just ask the author in the OP
:facepalm
Damn people like ptiddy actually exist... No wonder our country is going down the shitter.

[-p.tiddy-]

you're an fckin idiot...go troll another thread and act like country is ruined because of it

[Jello]

you're an fckin idiot...go troll another thread and act like country is ruined because of it
Keep up the ignorant handwaving and improper debating. You're a sad human being with no intelligence or critical thinking skills.

[-p.tiddy-]

yeah, okay...um die in a fire...maybe you'll have an NDE that way

[Blue&Orange]

Can someone explain me why nobody sees Hell during this nde's? It's amazing! :lol

99% of the people just aren't Heaven material, but apparently everyone is going to Heaven regardless, You would figure that when the conscience detaches the body of the sinner he would see hell, you would figure that the LARGE majority of people would be experiencing hell. :lol


Off-course it had to be a drunk driving apologist to makes a thread like this.

[LJJ]

I would guess he's laughing at the fact the guy's education has nothing to do with empirical science.

Guys bringing up their title discussing something unrelated always makes me suspicious. It's just another way to impress dumb people.

It's questionable for someone to stoop to that level period, someone's expertise should be evident, but when it's a degree in a wholly unrelated subject? Cringe.

[-p.tiddy-]

Can someone explain me why nobody sees Hell during this nde's? It's amazing! :lol

99% of the people just aren't Heaven material, but apparently everyone is going to Heaven regardless, You would figure that when the conscience detaches the body of the sinner he would see hell, you would figure that the LARGE majority of people would be experiencing hell. :lol


Off-course it had to be a drunk driving apologist to makes a thread like this.
they do actually...they call it "the void"

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research15.html

it isn't like the Christian hell of burning for eternity, but it is "hell" in a sense

[shlver]

A true NDE has never been reproduced without a flat line...there is no drug that can do it, only drugs that do similar effects.
I don't care about what they say a true nde is. I care about the symptoms and some of those symptoms have been reproduced by medically observed phenomena. This is fact.

Really I don't think you have any idea what NDEs do to people...they come out of them completely different people altogether. Many quit their jobs and devote themselves to charity work, is there a drug out there doing that to people? No one has ever claimed one to be a dream after having one. They see loved ones in spirit form that they KNOW FOR FACT was them...they see God, they go through various levels of spirit universe, can all that be reproduced on a regular? No it can't.
It doesn't matter. I'm talking about brain physiology.

Why would our brains give everyone the same dream? That is unexplainable by science right now. Everyone is telling the same story regardless of race age religion, etc...
Give me sources.
I also recall from an earlier thread that the majority of people that had NDE's also had a religious background. Don't quote me on that.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I can sum this up pretty easily.


I don't know, therefore heaven.

[-p.tiddy-]

I don't care about what they say a true nde is. I care about the symptoms and some of those symptoms have been reproduced by medically observed phenomena. This is fact.

It doesn't matter. I'm talking about brain physiology.

Give me sources.
I also recall from an earlier thread that the majority of people that had NDE's also had a religious background. Don't quote me on that.
No it is NOT FACT. what I listed ARE the symptoms...kentamine and the other one can give similar OBE type effects but they aren't the same things at all.

This is why it is obvious you don't understand what people who have NDEs go through...because the steps they go through are all the same, and they are life changing.

People who have NDEs generally come back LESS religious and more spiritual...that is another symptom...all people have them...ill post source for that when off my phone.

[shlver]

I have a couple of exams so I'm just going to sum it up really fast for primetme

First, it is fact that the symptoms of NDE's have been reproduced by medically observed phenomena. Research it. Don't just take my word as truth
Do not misconstrue this to mean we know the source of a "true NDE." All we glean from this is that under certain physiological conditions, the brain is capable of creating a similar experience.
Second, the credentials of a scientist or doctor or any professional lends nothing to the validity of their beliefs.

[shlver]

No it is NOT FACT. what I listed ARE the symptoms...kentamine and the other one can give similar OBE type effects but they aren't the same things at all.
Which means... that under certain physiological conditions, the brain is capable of creating a similar experience.

[-p.tiddy-]

I can sum this up pretty easily.


I don't know, therefore heaven.
He is claiming he DOES know

[-p.tiddy-]

Which means... that under certain physiological conditions, the brain is capable of creating a similar experience.
Some of the effects are "similar"

Again, an NDE event has specific steps...first go through tunnel, then life review, then meeting with God, then shown void, then meet spirits, etc etc...the drugs that supposedly can reproduce just give people an OBE, which is part of an NDE but not the same at all.

It's like saying getting drunk and blacking out is reproducing getting knocked out in a fight...they are similar but not the same

[-p.tiddy-]

I have a couple of exams so I'm just going to sum it up really fast for primetme

First, it is fact that the symptoms of NDE's have been reproduced by medically observed phenomena. Research it. Don't just take my word as truth
Do not misconstrue this to mean we know the source of a "true NDE." All we glean from this is that under certain physiological conditions, the brain is capable of creating a similar experience.
Second, the credentials of a scientist or doctor or any professional lends nothing to the validity of their beliefs.
I have read up on this for years now, I promise you it isn't fact...only an NDE gives people the feeling discribed by the author and thousands others...no drug has accomplished it ...drugs have only accomplished OBE symptoms, no one is seeing their dead relatives though.

[shlver]

I have read up on this for years now, I promise you it isn't fact...only an NDE gives people the feeling discribed by the author and thousands others...no drug has accomplished it ...drugs have only accomplished OBE symptoms, no one is seeing their dead relatives though.
okay, people just want to believe I guess.

[-p.tiddy-]

Shvler if it was "fact" they can reproduce them in a lab there would be no one debating them...the author would have no book, etc.

The people that believe are the people that have them....ALL OF THEM...the naysayers are the people on the outside

[miller-time]

That is a theory by nay Sayers...


She was able to describe all the instruments used on her during the operation without ever seeing them...(like most NDEs)...how does a dream do that?

That isn't a theory. That is the order of events. She recalls things from the operation prep and she recalls going back into her body. She doesn't recall anything from the time when she was "dead." Remember the operation took a number of hours but she was only at a stand still for a 5 minute window, a window where she doesn't recall anything. The biggest thing NDEers love to claim about this case is that it happens during a time when it is impossible for her brain to be working. It is only a 5 minute window. She isn't brain dead for hours and floating around the hospital. When she sees the tools and notices her shaved head for instance her brain is still creating EPs.

[shlver]

Shvler if it was "fact" they can reproduce them in a lab there would be no one debating them...the author would have no book, etc.

The people that believe are the people that have them....ALL OF THEM...the naysayers are the people on the outside
I never said that they could "reproduce them in a lab." I said there are medically observed phenomena that reproduce the SYMPTOMS of NDE's.

[-p.tiddy-]

That isn't a theory. That is the order of events. She recalls things from the operation prep and she recalls going back into her body. She doesn't recall anything from the time when she was "dead." Remember the operation took a number of hours but she was only at a stand still for a 5 minute window, a window where she doesn't recall anything. The biggest thing NDEers love to claim about this case is that it happens during a time when it is impossible for her brain to be working. It is only a 5 minute window. She isn't brain dead for hours and floating around the hospital. When she sees the tools and notices her shaved head for instance her brain is still creating EPs.
Her doctor claims no brain waves for over an hour...watch the video.

[-p.tiddy-]

I never said that they could "reproduce them in a lab." I said there are medically observed phenomena that reproduce the SYMPTOMS of NDE's.
No, again they can produce similar symptoms, but not an actual NDE

No one is seeing their dead relatives on kentamine

[Blue&Orange]

they do actually...they call it "the void"

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research15.html

it isn't like the Christian hell of burning for eternity, but it is "hell" in a sense
Oh really? So now Hell is "the void" intradesting!!

People see Heaven, beautiful girls, relatives, talk to animals, angels.
People see hell, "the void" looooooooool

What happen to the demons, and the flames, the lakes of fire? :lol


The Void!!!


the void is a beautiful and heavenly experience because, in the absence of all else, they are able to perfectly see the love and light they have cultivated within themselves
Sounds scary :roll:



The void :lol

[shlver]

No, again they can produce similar symptoms, but not an actual NDE

No one is seeing their dead relatives on kentamine
Do you even read my posts? You're just raving with no comprehension of what I'm posting.

Do not misconstrue this to mean we know the source of a "true NDE." All we glean from this is that under certain physiological conditions, the brain is capable of creating a similar experience.

[miller-time]

Her doctor claims no brain waves for over an hour...watch the video.

That is wrong. I've watched the video before. I don't think they even claim that in the video but they edit it in such a way so the viewer can assume that is the case. But they simply can't stop the brain functioning for that long without damaging it. They have to get her body temperature right down and stop the blood flowing to her brain to stop it from functioning. Doing that for any longer than a few minutes would be terrible. Once her body functions again her brain would fire up straight away.


The body can not live for more than 7 minutes without blood circulating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standstill_operation

[miller-time]

No one is seeing their dead relatives on kentamine

Ketamine not kentamine. But they do see things on DMT don't they. Which is also an endogenous compound.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

He is claiming he DOES know
How do you write a book and still "claim" to know. Facts n!gga, we need facts

[-p.tiddy-]

Do you even read my posts? You're just raving with no comprehension of what I'm posting.
okay but why bring that up? there is no good in it from a scientific stand point. You agree that an NDE can not be reproduced with drugs but that there are "some" symptoms that are "similar" to an NDE...that doesn't mean anything really.

the truth is though from what I have read there is nothing that even comes close to an NDE...again, please read what I am about to say, when someone has an NDE it almost always completely changes them as a person, most come out and dedicate their lives to charity work and helping others...that IS a symptom on an NDE, that IS part of their brain psychology, there is nothing on this planet that can reproduce the kind of impact NDEs have on people, not that we know of anyway.

[-p.tiddy-]

That is wrong. I've watched the video before. I don't think they even claim that in the video but they edit it in such a way so the viewer can assume that is the case. But they simply can't stop the brain functioning for that long without damaging it. They have to get her body temperature right down and stop the blood flowing to her brain to stop it from functioning. Doing that for any longer than a few minutes would be terrible. Once her body functions again her brain would fire up straight away.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standstill_operation
LISTEN TO THE FIRST 30 SECONDS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUD6kfEcgLc&playnext=1&list=PLB3VkL0_ujazGdCM3riPAAXLcu6opsuY6&feature=results_main)

blood was just drained from her head only, very rare procedure...she was dead for a full hour, no brain waves

[-p.tiddy-]

Ketamine not kentamine. But they do see things on DMT don't they. Which is also an endogenous compound.
from what I have read about DMT and ketamine is that they can produce a pretty crazy psychedelic trip where people claim to have an out of body and are able to see themselves from the outside...

but you know what, to me that is just more proof that our consciousness and brain are NOT THE SAME THING...they can be separated, the brain is just a holding vessel for our consciousness.

Joe Rogan did it and I listened to his experience and it does seem insane, but it wasn't an NDE...If I remember correctly he did say he was able to fly over LA though.



there is another phenomenon that is called the "astral plane" it is like a level between our world and the "other side"...an there are those that claim they are able to travel on it why in deep meditation...and can see others traveling on it as well.

[Blue&Orange]

when someone has an NDE it almost always completely changes them as a person, most come out and dedicate their lives to charity work and helping others...
Can you share the data that supports this claim? No you can't.

I'm gonna explain this to you. Even if true, those idiots thought they saw proof of heaven, so what they are doing is nothing else but looking out for themselves, they are trying secure their place on paradise. It's not from the kindness of their hearts, it's not altruism, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR THEMSELFS LIKE THE EVERY ANIMAL ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET DOES.


NOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM DEDICATE THEIR LIVES TO CHARITY BELIEVING THAT THERE IS NOTHING ELSE BEYOND DEATH!


HOW ABOUT THAT?

[-p.tiddy-]

No they can. Turning to the supernatural and ignoring scientific and practical explanations is not credible despite it coming from the mouth of a neurosurgeon.
^^^ see that, that is your problem shlver...and other naysayers problem

STOP viewing this as "supernatural"...or "magic"...or "mystical"...etc

instead view it as an extension of science...a new science...perhaps these spirits are composed of their own unique particles that don't exist in our 3D dimension...their world made of of it's own unique laws...etc

why is out of the realm of possibility for other dimensions to exist?...seems like that would go against science to just reject that possibility.

you are probably very quick to say that life likely exists outside of our own planet, but why not quick to say that other dimensions don't exist?...why so close minded as to act as though all that exists is our universe?

[-p.tiddy-]

Can you share the data that supports this claim? No you can't.


Adults who had NDEs gave more money to charity than control subjects, volunteered in the community, were in helping professions, did not suffer from drug abuse, use many over-the-counter medications, and ate more fresh fruit and vegetables than control populations.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts06.html


NDEs are also associated with changes in personality and outlook on life.[22] Kenneth Ring (professor of psychology) has identified a consistent set of value and belief changes associated with people who have had a near-death experience. Among these changes one finds a greater appreciation for life, higher self-esteem, greater compassion for others, a heightened sense of purpose and self-understanding, desire to learn, elevated spirituality, greater ecological sensitivity and planetary concern, and a feeling of being more intuitive. Changes may also include increased physical sensitivity; diminished tolerance of light, alcohol, and drugs; a feeling that the brain has been "altered" to encompass more; and a feeling that one is now using the "whole brain" rather than a small part.[22]

[-p.tiddy-]

Can you share the data that supports this claim? No you can't.


People Are Dramatically Changed By NDEs

Dr. P.M.H. Atwater's NDE Research (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence05.html)


there you go, that is all you need

[-p.tiddy-]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8Vma-W1m7Fk/TgV6mgUTWZI/AAAAAAAAABE/b07mFVs2JvY/s1600/Copy+of+Diagram+of+Spirit+World.jpg


^^^ see that is something like most NDEers describe it...that there are multiple levels

apparently the "astral" plane can be achieved without an NDE by some (maybe that is what those drugs are capable of doing)...they can OBE and travel about without their body.

above that an NDE is needed, or just death...(actually a rebirth)

[DonDadda59]

Soul Plane

Does this look like an afterlife you want to be a part of? :no:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002J4YWE.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Thanks, but I'll pass.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8Vma-W1m7Fk/TgV6mgUTWZI/AAAAAAAAABE/b07mFVs2JvY/s1600/Copy+of+Diagram+of+Spirit+World.jpg


^^^ see that is something like most NDEers describe it...that there are multiple levels

apparently the "astral" plane can be achieved without an NDE by some (maybe that is what those drugs are capable of doing)...they can OBE and travel about without their body.

above that an NDE is needed, or just death...(actually a rebirth)
So how are the mental and physical plane in anyway different? That map looks like a 16 yr old pot head made it. Is there any facts at all to back this up?

[-p.tiddy-]

Does this look like an afterlife you want to be a part of? :no:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002J4YWE.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Thanks, but I'll pass.
ha, kinda funny

Actually I might want to be on that plane for just a little while...

[-p.tiddy-]

So how are the mental and physical plane in anyway different? That map looks like a 16 yr old pot head made it. Is there any facts at all to back this up?
obviously there is no proof of this, it is just how most NDEers describe it...and yeah they aren't skilled graphic artists...

here are others:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/astral/Astral-Etheric-Connect.gif

http://www.lifecoachview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/h_07_meek_magic_24_pic.jpg

http://buildingthebridge.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/spiritual_realms.png?w=700

http://members.dodo.com.au/~astroqab/pics/0106sunearthpic.gif

http://www.lifecoachview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ASTRALPLANES.gif


looks like different people display it in different ways...

[DonDadda59]

And Lord Xenu fits into these charts how, exactly? :confusedshrug:

[-p.tiddy-]

eh..."Soul Plane" movie was much funnier post...

[DonDadda59]

eh..."Soul Plane" movie was much funnier post...

Word.

[Blue&Orange]

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts06.html
Amazing stuff right there!!!!

A pedriatic doctor!!! Wow

That waterboarded his stepdaughter !!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188549/Melvin-Morse-Doctor-waterboarded-stepdaughter-FOUR-TIMES-doing-research-book-childrens-near-death-experiences.html

loool

You are really not helping yourself here!

How about instead of trying to feed me GARBAGE, why don't you address my questions and comments? You can't can you?


I know, you are just to AMAZING to be allowed to die, like any other lifeform, you must go on, it doesn't make sense otherwise, because YOU ARE SO AMAZING!!!

[-p.tiddy-]

you're a weird poster, that link addressed your question completely and used quotes from dozens of people...

all life has a spirit that goes on according to them...some spirits more advanced than others...even plants, single-celled organisms, etc...everything that is alive

[red1]

I believe in this nde shit 110%, I am sure that the majority of these stories are absolutely true but I just hate seeing all the mystical new-age bullshit that people add onto these



http://www.kheper.net/topics/astral/Astral-Etheric-Connect.gif


I mean really, what the fcuk is all of this shit?

[miller-time]

People Are Dramatically Changed By NDEs

Dr. P.M.H. Atwater's NDE Research (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence05.html)


there you go, that is all you need

"Dr"


She wrote the column "Coming Back" for the Vital Signs magazine 1981 - 1985. She earned her Letters of the Humanities (L.H.D.) doctorate from the International College of Spiritual and Psychic Studies in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, May 19, 1992; and was awarded an honorary Ph.D. in Therapeutic Counseling in March 2005, from Medicina Alternativa Institute, The Open International University for Complementary Medicines, in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Also in 2005, the International Association for Near-death Studies (IANDS) presented her with an Outstanding Service Award and the National Association of Transpersonal Hypnotherapists awarded her a Lifetime Achievement Award.[2] She has been a Prayer Chaplain since 2004.

These are nonsense degrees.

[-p.tiddy-]

oh come on, she has clearly devoted her life to studying this...stop acting as though you have to be a neurosurgeon in order to research this subject...

[miller-time]

oh come on, she has clearly devoted her life to studying this...stop acting as though you have to be a neurosurgeon in order to research this subject...

I'm not discrediting her work based on that. But I'm not calling her Dr either. People like to throw the term around to give their work more weight or credibility. It is deceitful to me. And deceitful tactics makes me take them less seriously on face value.