Kobe Bryant Myths

[Rondo]

http://clnsradio.com/2013/03/26/kobe-bryant-exposing-myths-arguments-fallacies-define-his-inflated-greatness/

Great read. Should be fun to see how his fans come back to solid figures exposing his inflated greatness.

[DMAVS41]

http://clnsradio.com/2013/03/26/kobe-bryant-exposing-myths-arguments-fallacies-define-his-inflated-greatness/

Great read. Should be fun to see how his fans come back to solid figures exposing his inflated greatness.

Heard it all before. Some of it is true...some of it is a joke.

Taking Pippen over Kobe to start a team? :facepalm

Absolute ****ing joke.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Exposing Kobe hater myths is my specialty but I had to bail right about here..

"They say Kobe Bryant has been the most scrutinized athlete of our time. They say that no one has been put in under a bigger microscope than the starting shooting guard for the Los Angeles Lakers. No athlete, during this generation of technology and information, has ever been more polarizing than one Kobe Bryant.

And already, ‘they’ are wrong. ‘They’ are embellishing once again. Just for fun, here are some names: Barry Bonds, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, LeBron James, Floyd Mayweather, Michelle Wie,...

:biggums:

[dh144498]

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Exposing Kobe hater myths is my specialty but I had to bail right about here..

"They say Kobe Bryant has been the most scrutinized athlete of our time. They say that no one has been put in under a bigger microscope than the starting shooting guard for the Los Angeles Lakers. No athlete, during this generation of technology and information, has ever been more polarizing than one Kobe Bryant.

And already,

[Rondo]

It's telling how every reply so far has been defending Kobe yet not one of you has challenged any solid figures or statistics put forward instead dismissing the entire article because he said Michelle Wie's been under the spotlight as much as Kobe.

Hater or no hater the stats speak for themselves. Unless basketball-reference are haters too? Possibly, just possibly, instead of being a Kobe Bryant hater, people are just pissed off hearing how great your gawd is.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's telling how every reply so far has been defending Kobe yet not one of you has challenged any solid figures or statistics put forward instead dismissing the entire article because he said Michelle Wie's been under the spotlight as much as Kobe.

Hater or no hater the stats speak for themselves. Unless basketball-reference are haters too? Possibly, just possibly, instead of being a Kobe Bryant hater, people are just pissed off hearing how great your gawd is.

What stats are you referring to specifically? I only skimmed. Chuckled at the thought process behind Kobe's basketball resume doesn't matter because............ Norv Turner.

[fpliii]

I'm not a Kobe guy per se, but one note -- individual DRtg and Defensive Win Shares are both highly flawed. They use box score stats to assign credit for defense played, while very little of defense shows up in a box score. On/Off, stats from mysynergysports.com, and some flavors of +/- (you have to be careful though, for sample size, teammate interference, and other noise that could pollute the dataset) are probably a better bet.

I think Kobe's All-Defensive team selections after 09 are probably not warranted, but there always has been a star bias so he's hardly the only outlier. If you want to truly gauge defense, you have to look at team level impact IMO and make subjective judgments from there. In his day though (particularly from 00-03) Kobe was a great man defender.

[selrahc]

kobe is GOAT... anyone who disagrees is just an idiot

[chosen_one6]

I'm not a Kobe guy per se, but one note -- individual DRtg and Defensive Win Shares are both highly flawed. They use box score stats to assign credit for defense played, while very little of defense shows up in a box score. On/Off, stats from mysynergysports.com, and some flavors of +/- (you have to be careful though, for sample size, teammate interference, and other noise that could pollute the dataset) are probably a better bet.

I think Kobe's All-Defensive team selections after 09 are probably not warranted, but there always has been a star bias so he's hardly the only outlier. If you want to truly gauge defense, you have to look at team level impact IMO and make subjective judgments from there. In his day though (particularly from 00-03) Kobe was a great man defender.

It's not hard to play overactive man defense when you can funnel your man into one of the most dominant big men of all time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's not hard to play overactive man defense when you can funnel your man into one of the most dominant big men of all time.

We are not talking about Bruce Bowen here :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

It's telling how every reply so far has been defending Kobe yet not one of you has challenged any solid figures or statistics put forward instead dismissing the entire article because he said Michelle Wie's been under the spotlight as much as Kobe.

Hater or no hater the stats speak for themselves. Unless basketball-reference are haters too? Possibly, just possibly, instead of being a Kobe Bryant hater, people are just pissed off hearing how great your gawd is.

No, it's just that we've heard it all before. I exposed some of these myths years ago on here.

Yes - Kobe is extremely over-rated in crunch time and on game winners...especially in the playoffs. We've all seen the numbers. However, he's still good. Just because he was over-rated doesn't make him bad. He's still a good to great crunch time player...he's just not head and shoulders better than everyone like his fans claimed. You'd probably rather have guys like Lebron, Paul, Dirk, Durant, and Carmelo over Kobe in crunch time or on game winners. Really not a big revelation for people that aren't die hard Kobe fans that have watched with some objectivity.

Yes - His defense has been hugely over-rated since 03. But he's still a very good defender. Just not as good as his accolades make him out to be. Again, everyone with any bit of objectivity has known this for years.

Yes - Even Kobe has played poorly in big moments. 04 finals, 06 game 7, 08 finals at times. Find me a player who hasn't other than MJ and Russell? So what? Kobe is still one of the best playoff performers ever.

No - Sorry, nobody with a brain would take Pippen or KG over Kobe to start a franchise. Nor West or Baylor. I'm probably the only person that would take Dirk over Kobe...but I'm also biased...although I could make a strong argument imo. But somebody like Pippen? GTFO...and that is when a top ten player of all time like Kobe starts to become horribly under-rated.

He's now in his 17th year. He's still playing at an elite level. His longevity alone is starting to set him apart from many all time greats.

Even if you hate Kobe and think he's over-rated...here are the only players that you could rank over him;

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron

And I think Kobe has a good argument with Bird / Hakeem and Lebron. Lebron for now, but assuming Lebron continues to play at this level and racks up some titles...Lebron will be unquestionably higher on my list.

So articles like that do provide some good data...but everyone here has seen it before. And again...even if you rank him as low as possible...you still get something like the 11th best player ever.

So all that stuff really only matters to the droves of moronic Kobe fans that think he's way better than he actually is.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

most scrutinized athlete of our time

Barry Bonds, (pre juicing wasn't scutinized, worshipped while on roids, was out of the game already when shit hit the fan)
Tiger Woods, (worshiped til caught with the entire brazzers cast, scrutinized while losing, will get worshipped again if he wins more)
David Beckham, ????
LeBron James, worshipped prior to the decision, a couple of bad PR years, now worshipped again
Floyd Mayweather, No one cares
Michelle Wie, No one really cares
Roger Clemens, No
Tim Tebow, He doesn't even play. :facepalm
A-Rod 34334 guy caught roiding :confusedshrug:

[Doranku]

No, it's just that we've heard it all before. I exposed some of these myths years ago on here.

Yes - Kobe is extremely over-rated in crunch time and on game winners...especially in the playoffs. We've all seen the numbers. However, he's still good. Just because he was over-rated doesn't make him bad. He's still a good to great crunch time player...he's just not head and shoulders better than everyone like his fans claimed. You'd probably rather have guys like Lebron, Paul, Dirk, Durant, and Carmelo over Kobe in crunch time or on game winners. Really not a big revelation for people that aren't die hard Kobe fans that have watched with some objectivity.

Yes - His defense has been hugely over-rated since 03. But he's still a very good defender. Just not as good as his accolades make him out to be. Again, everyone with any bit of objectivity has known this for years.

Yes - Even Kobe has played poorly in big moments. 04 finals, 06 game 7, 08 finals at times. Find me a player who hasn't other than MJ and Russell? So what? Kobe is still one of the best playoff performers ever.

No - Sorry, nobody with a brain would take Pippen or KG over Kobe to start a franchise. Nor West or Baylor. I'm probably the only person that would take Dirk over Kobe...but I'm also biased...although I could make a strong argument imo. But somebody like Pippen? GTFO...and that is when a top ten player of all time like Kobe starts to become horribly under-rated.

He's now in his 17th year. He's still playing at an elite level. His longevity alone is starting to set him apart from many all time greats.

Even if you hate Kobe and think he's over-rated...here are the only players that you could rank over him;

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron

And I think Kobe has a good argument with Bird / Hakeem and Lebron. Lebron for now, but assuming Lebron continues to play at this level and racks up some titles...Lebron will be unquestionably higher on my list.

So articles like that do provide some good data...but everyone here has seen it before. And again...even if you rank him as low as possible...you still get something like the 11th best player ever.

So all that stuff really only matters to the droves of moronic Kobe fans that think he's way better than he actually is.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Rondo]

most scrutinized athlete of our time

Barry Bonds, (pre juicing wasn't scutinized, worshipped while on roids, was out of the game already when shit hit the fan)
Tiger Woods, (worshiped til caught with the entire brazzers cast, scrutinized while losing, will get worshipped again if he wins more)
David Beckham, ????
LeBron James, worshipped prior to the decision, a couple of bad PR years, now worshipped again
Floyd Mayweather, No one cares
Michelle Wie, No one really cares
Roger Clemens, No
Tim Tebow, He doesn't even play. :facepalm
A-Rod 34334 guy caught roiding :confusedshrug:

Do you even know what that word means?

Just because LeBron's "worshipped" doesn't mean he isn't scrutinized. Every single thing he does is scrutinized whether it be positive or negative. Whether it be a RT to a deranged fan on Twitter or his reaction to Bosh's clowning while he's getting interviewed.

Same goes for Tiger for that matter.

The list of athlete's he chose is silly though, I agree with that much.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

most scrutinized athlete of our time

Barry Bonds, (pre juicing wasn't scutinized, worshipped while on roids, was out of the game already when shit hit the fan)
Tiger Woods, (worshiped til caught with the entire brazzers cast, scrutinized while losing, will get worshipped again if he wins more)
David Beckham, ????
LeBron James, worshipped prior to the decision, a couple of bad PR years, now worshipped again
Floyd Mayweather, No one cares
Michelle Wie, No one really cares
Roger Clemens, No
Tim Tebow, He doesn't even play. :facepalm
A-Rod 34334 guy caught roiding :confusedshrug:

No one cares yet he's the highest paid athlete in the world (even though he has no endorsements) making 40+ million per fight? Makes sense.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

It's not hard to play overactive man defense when you can funnel your man into one of the most dominant big men of all time.

Wait, you're talking about Shaq?!

:roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No, it's just that we've heard it all before. I exposed some of these myths years ago on here.

Yes - Kobe is extremely over-rated in crunch time and on game winners...especially in the playoffs. We've all seen the numbers. However, he's still good. Just because he was over-rated doesn't make him bad. He's still a good to great crunch time player...he's just not head and shoulders better than everyone like his fans claimed. You'd probably rather have guys like Lebron, Paul, Dirk, Durant, and Carmelo over Kobe in crunch time or on game winners. Really not a big revelation for people that aren't die hard Kobe fans that have watched with some objectivity.

Yes - His defense has been hugely over-rated since 03. But he's still a very good defender. Just not as good as his accolades make him out to be. Again, everyone with any bit of objectivity has known this for years.

Yes - Even Kobe has played poorly in big moments. 04 finals, 06 game 7, 08 finals at times. Find me a player who hasn't other than MJ and Russell? So what? Kobe is still one of the best playoff performers ever.

No - Sorry, nobody with a brain would take Pippen or KG over Kobe to start a franchise. Nor West or Baylor. I'm probably the only person that would take Dirk over Kobe...but I'm also biased...although I could make a strong argument imo. But somebody like Pippen? GTFO...and that is when a top ten player of all time like Kobe starts to become horribly under-rated.

He's now in his 17th year. He's still playing at an elite level. His longevity alone is starting to set him apart from many all time greats.

Even if you hate Kobe and think he's over-rated...here are the only players that you could rank over him;

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron

And I think Kobe has a good argument with Bird / Hakeem and Lebron. Lebron for now, but assuming Lebron continues to play at this level and racks up some titles...Lebron will be unquestionably higher on my list.

So articles like that do provide some good data...but everyone here has seen it before. And again...even if you rank him as low as possible...you still get something like the 11th best player ever.

So all that stuff really only matters to the droves of moronic Kobe fans that think he's way better than he actually is.

Repped :applause:

[Rondo]

Even if you hate Kobe and think he's over-rated...here are the only players that you could rank over him;

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron

And I think Kobe has a good argument with Bird / Hakeem and Lebron. Lebron for now, but assuming Lebron continues to play at this level and racks up some titles...Lebron will be unquestionably higher on my list.


There's no way you can put forward any logical argument to suggest that Kobe is better than Bird or LeBron. LeBron has already surpassed Kobe and it ain't close imo. LeBron doesn't have anything to prove to anyone now, he doesn't need to prove himself further before people agree on him being better than Kobe. That period's been and gone.

Edit: and in your post you mention stuff like "moronic Kobe fans" and "objectivity/objective fans". That whole article is aimed at shooting down the very people you mention (moronic fans) and bringing objectivity to the fore.

[DMAVS41]

There's no way you can put forward any logical argument to suggest that Kobe is better than Bird or LeBron. LeBron has already surpassed Kobe and it ain't close imo. LeBron doesn't have anything to prove to anyone now, he doesn't need to prove himself further before people agree on him being better than Kobe. That period's been and gone.

Total and utter BS.

Lebron has not done enough to date to rank him over Kobe...considering Kobe is still going strong in year 17.

Now, if Lebron wins another title this year? Yes...I'll rank him over Kobe. But if he doesn't and it's his fault? Then no. These things are fluid. What if Lebron chokes again? Don't tell me he has nothing left to prove. Love him or hate him...Kobe did win 5 titles and played well enough to make the finals 7 times. I'm not a big "rings" guy...but Lebron better win a few more titles with the kind of help he has...or you have to call some things into question.

Bird vs Kobe. I have Bird higher, but it is by no means a lock. On longevity alone Kobe might be doing enough to pass him. Bird was hardly perfect and although his peak / dominance was better than Kobe's, I don't think that alone is enough to throw out all the playoff black marks on Bird's career as well.

But I'm not going to debate that...my point was simple. It's not clear that Bird should be ranked over Kobe or vice versa. It's a legit debate...which should honestly just be fact to anyone that is not biased either way.

[Doranku]

Total and utter BS.

Lebron has not done enough to date to rank him over Kobe...considering Kobe is still going strong in year 17.

Now, if Lebron wins another title this year? Yes...I'll rank him over Kobe. But if he doesn't and it's his fault? Then no. These things are fluid. What if Lebron chokes again? Don't tell me he has nothing left to prove. Love him or hate him...Kobe did win 5 titles and played well enough to make the finals 7 times. I'm not a big "rings" guy...but Lebron better win a few more titles with the kind of help he has...or you have to call some things into question.

Bird vs Kobe. I have Bird higher, but it is by no means a lock. On longevity alone Kobe might be doing enough to pass him. Bird was hardly perfect and although his peak / dominance was better than Kobe's, I don't think that alone is enough to throw out all the playoff black marks on Bird's career as well.

But I'm not going to debate that...my point was simple. It's not clear that Bird should be ranked over Kobe or vice versa. It's a legit debate...which should honestly just be fact to anyone that is not biased either way.

LeBron will probably rank higher than Kobe when all is said and done, but you make some very good points about Bird. Bird is grossly overrated when it comes to all-time lists. Kobe has been putting up elite, prime numbers for more seasons than Bird was even in the league, and he's STILL going.

Not to mention Bird has had many more playoff failures than Kobe. People just aren't aware of this because the media has made himself and Magic out to be the immortal Olympian Gods of the 80's.

Makes you wonder what people will be saying about Kobe, an exciting superstar wing player who completely dominated the '00-'10 decade, in 20 years..

[PJR]

Wait, you're talking about Shaq?!

:roll:

Um, Shaq was an elite rim protecter. Yes Kobe benefited from be able funnel guys to Shaq. This is undeniable.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron will probably rank higher than Kobe when all is said and done, but you make some very good points about Bird. Bird is grossly overrated when it comes to all-time lists. Kobe has been putting up elite, prime numbers for more seasons than Bird was even in the league, and he's STILL going.

Not to mention Bird has had many more playoff failures than Kobe. People just aren't aware of this because the media has made himself and Magic out to be the immortal Olympian Gods of the 80's.

Makes you wonder what people will be saying about Kobe, an exciting superstar wing player who completely dominated the '00-'10 decade, in 20 years..

I don't think Bird is grossly over-rated. Well...he only is if people think it's laughable to compare him and Kobe.

You lost me on the..."completely dominated the 00-10 decade"...are you saying that? Or are you saying that is what people will be saying in 20 years?

Because Kobe did not dominated the decade at all.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Um, Shaq was an elite rim protecter.

For 1-2 seasons. Being big and being a decent shot blocker doesn't equal elite defense. He was awful in the pick and roll and could get lazy on the boards. 2000 was the one year when he was at an elite level defensively as far as activity due to him being hungry and Phil motivating him and designing the Lakers defense around funneling guys into Shaq. He was cool in 2001 also. But after that he wasn't the defender at his position that Kobe was at his. Not close.

[dh144498]

It's not hard to play overactive man defense when you can funnel your man into one of the most dominant big men of all time.

yeah cause Shaq affected perimeter defense. :lol
the level of stupidity from these idiot posters. :roll:

[dh144498]

Um, Shaq was an elite rim protecter. Yes Kobe benefited from be able funnel guys to Shaq. This is undeniable.

notice only the lebron d1ckriders are saying this. Making up revisionist history to make Kobe look bad. :lol :roll:

sad kids..... just sad.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Myth #1: Kobe Bryant is the NBA

[Rondo]

Total and utter BS.

Lebron has not done enough to date to rank him over Kobe...considering Kobe is still going strong in year 17.

Now, if Lebron wins another title this year? Yes...I'll rank him over Kobe. But if he doesn't and it's his fault? Then no. These things are fluid. What if Lebron chokes again? Don't tell me he has nothing left to prove. Love him or hate him...Kobe did win 5 titles and played well enough to make the finals 7 times. I'm not a big "rings" guy...but Lebron better win a few more titles with the kind of help he has...or you have to call some things into question.

Bird vs Kobe. I have Bird higher, but it is by no means a lock. On longevity alone Kobe might be doing enough to pass him. Bird was hardly perfect and although his peak / dominance was better than Kobe's, I don't think that alone is enough to throw out all the playoff black marks on Bird's career as well.

But I'm not going to debate that...my point was simple. It's not clear that Bird should be ranked over Kobe or vice versa. It's a legit debate...which should honestly just be fact to anyone that is not biased either way.

It's a greater factor in deciding who's better than longevity, that's for sure.

What if LeBron chokes again? I can't see that happening and if it does it shouldn't be used against him in comparisons to Kobe when Kobe's done likewise.

Longevity shouldn't be used against him in comparison to Kobe when they play completely different styles and have completely different bodies.

He's more talented than Kobe ever was. He does much more than Kobe. He's playing at a level that Kobe never has. It isn't a flash in the pan either. We've all known he was capable of this. Nobody ever doubted his ability in the past. It was always his ability to win it all that people questioned. Now he's figured that out and put those questions to bed I just don't see how people can't see that LeBron's surpassed Kobe.

[RRR3]

For 1-2 seasons. Being big and being a decent shot blocker doesn't equal elite defense. He was awful in the pick and roll and could get lazy on the boards. 2000 was the one year when he was at an elite level defensively as far as activity due to him being hungry and Phil motivating him and designing the Lakers defense around funneling guys into Shaq. He was cool in 2001 also. But after that he wasn't the defender at his position that Kobe was at his. Not close.
Shaq was more than a "decent" shot blocker.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No one cares yet he's the highest paid athlete in the world (even though he has no endorsements) making 40+ million per fight? Makes sense.

No one cares that hes a scrumbag as evidenced by the fact that he can get 40 million per fight. You dope.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Shaq was more than a "decent" shot blocker.

Ok, "good" shot blocker. I'll give him that. But shit, Andrew Bynum could block shots. Doesn't mean he was a good defender just because of that alone.

My point was that it doesn't mean much when you give up wing penetration because you don't hedge or are trotting back down the floor.

[dh144498]

"A big man like Hakeem Olajuwon who can defend, rebound, pass and score in the post holds far more value than a one-dimensional scoring guard like Kobe Bryant."

:biggums:

[ThunderStruk022]

Exposing Kobe hater myths is my specialty but I had to bail right about here..

A self proclaimed "specialist"? You might want to make sure you're actually good at said specialty before calling yourself a specialist.

[RRR3]

Ok, "good" shot blocker. I'll give him that. But shit, Andrew Bynum could block shots. Doesn't mean he was a good defender just because of that alone.

My point was that it doesn't mean much when you give up wing penetration because you don't hedge or are trotting back down the floor.
He's 14th in Blocks Per Game out of thousands of players to ever play the game. That's called a great shot blocker. Whether he was a great defender or not is irrelevant if we're solely discussing how frequently he blocked shots, which is what we're going over. I only remember watching older Shaq, and I didn't watch him that much, so I won't argue with you on his defense, but he got a shit ton of blocks.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

A self proclaimed "specialist"? You might want to make sure you're actually good at said specialty before calling yourself a specialist.

Which myth specifically do you believe went unanswered?

[ThunderStruk022]

Wait, you're talking about Shaq?!

:roll:
I'm pretty sure even Phil ackson himself said a big part of their defensive game plan was to funnel ball handlers towards Shaq. He may not be on the same level as guys like Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Robinson, Ewing, etc. as a defensive anchor. During the 3-peat, though, he was an excellent defensive anchor.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

He's 14th in Blocks Per Game out of thousands of players to ever play the game. That's called a great shot blocker. Whether he was a great defender or not is irrelevant if we're solely discussing how frequently he blocked shots, which is what we're going over. I only remember watching older Shaq, and I didn't watch him that much, so I won't argue with you on his defense, but he got a shit ton of blocks.

Alright, you win, great shot blocker. My point still stands though.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

No one cares that hes a scrumbag as evidenced by the fact that he can get 40 million per fight. You dope.
Okay by that logic nobody scrutinizes Kobe as evidenced by the fact that he makes a lot of money.

[lilgodfather1]

The only Kobe myth is that he was the best player in the league for years. I just don't see it. His statistical prime was on a first round loser, and on a lotto team. The best player can't be on a lotto team. In 2008 Paul deserved the MVP. Since 2009 LeBron has been the unquestionable best player in the NBA. You can say Kobe might have been the best player in the league for 2 years, and not sound crazy. I'd say '07, and '08 he was the best player in the NBA.

Before that he was on Shaq's team, or on lotto teams, or wasn't good enough.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Okay by that logic nobody scrutinizes Kobe as evidenced by the fact that he makes a lot of money.

Let me clarify. Floyd doesn't inspire the media to care. His haters are lower in number than the disgruntled Kobe haters. Since you are apparently Floyd's #1 fan I apologize for insulting you by saying nobody cares. Clearly you do.

[monkeypox]

Lol, Kobe can't even be the most scrutinized athlete? Damn, some people won't let him have anything. Meanwhile you're the same people hating about everything, down to the way his voice sounds and his facial expressions. Yeah Michelle Wie is more scrutinized. Dumb article.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Let me clarify. Floyd doesn't inspire the media to care. His haters are lower in number than the disgruntled Kobe haters. Since you are apparently Floyd's #1 fan I apologize for insulting you by saying nobody cares. Clearly you do.

Lmao i'm not his #1 fan. It's just hilarious that you think no one cares just because you are not a boxing fan. And no they are not lower in number. Dude is hated by the entire philippines.

[Rondo]

"A big man like Hakeem Olajuwon who can defend, rebound, pass and score in the post holds far more value than a one-dimensional scoring guard like Kobe Bryant."

:biggums:

What's your point?

[dh144498]

What's your point?

clearly just a kobe bashing article...

[DMAVS41]

The only Kobe myth is that he was the best player in the league for years. I just don't see it. His statistical prime was on a first round loser, and on a lotto team. The best player can't be on a lotto team. In 2008 Paul deserved the MVP. Since 2009 LeBron has been the unquestionable best player in the NBA. You can say Kobe might have been the best player in the league for 2 years, and not sound crazy. I'd say '07, and '08 he was the best player in the NBA.

Before that he was on Shaq's team, or on lotto teams, or wasn't good enough.

You can make the case for Kobe as the best player in the league from 06-08...and he was over that 3 year span. If you break it down to individual years, it gets a little less clear.

But that is really it. Shaq and Duncan...and KG a couple years were the best up through 04...and then Lebron has owned the league since 09.

[Overdrive]

yeah cause Shaq affected perimeter defense. :lol
the level of stupidity from these idiot posters. :roll:

A rim protecting big changes everything about perimeter defense. You can guard slashers way closer, because they will go for the midrange pull up or pass more often than trying to face the center in the middle.

A defensive big causes the other team to shoot more and drive less, which of course is less effective and helps the wings' defensive stats.

[Rondo]

clearly just a kobe bashing article...

But the part you quoted is true :facepalm

[NumberSix]

IMO, there was never a single year where Kobe was the best player in the NBA.

However, he spent MANY years as one of the top 5 players. That's pretty impressive.

[DMAVS41]

IMO, there was never a single year where Kobe was the best player in the NBA.

However, he spent MANY years as one of the top 5 players. That's pretty impressive.

I'm not saying I disagree necessarily, but who was better in...

06?
07?
08?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

IMO, there was never a single year where Kobe was the best player in the NBA.

However, he spent MANY years as one of the top 5 players. That's pretty impressive.

Debatable. The strongest case he has is from '06-08.

[chazzy]

Top 3-5 from 01 to 04, best or 2nd best from 06 to 10. And then top 5 this year and last year

[dh144498]

But the part you quoted is true :facepalm

no it's not..... Hakeem gets the defensive nod, but not the other things. :facepalm :no:

[Noob Saibot]

With the reputation Kobe has from the media and his fan base, a casual or non basketball fan would believe Kobe was the best player in the league for like 10 years, no arguments whatsoever. Though this is not the case in reality.

[DMAVS41]

Top 3-5 from 01 to 04, best or 2nd best from 06 to 10. And then top 5 this year and last year

I think we need to see the playoffs to declare him top 5 this year.

[Rondo]

no it's not..... Hakeem gets the defensive nod, but not the other things. :facepalm :no:

"A big man like Hakeem Olajuwon who can defend, rebound, pass and score in the post holds far more value than a one-dimensional scoring guard like Kobe Bryant."

That is true.

He's not saying Hakeem is a better scorer than Kobe. He's saying a well rounded big man who can do many things is the better option to have which I'd agree with.

[DMAVS41]

"A big man like Hakeem Olajuwon who can defend, rebound, pass and score in the post holds far more value than a one-dimensional scoring guard like Kobe Bryant."

That is true.

He's not saying Hakeem is a better scorer than Kobe. He's saying a well rounded big man who can do many things is the better option to have which I'd agree with.

It's that Kobe is far from one dimensional. That is why that is a joke to say.

[Scholar]

Article is so stupid. I can't believe anyone can be obsessed more than posters on ISH in bashing KB24.

It's funny how the guy mentions Kobe "giving up in game 7 of the 2006 Playoffs vs the Suns." Why is it funny? Because he mentions how Kobe giving up was the same as LeBron's.

Umm... LeBron was planning on leaving. He already knew he was signing with the Heat in the off-season, so he just dialed it in. He checked out. He decided to give up in the ENTIRE series.

Kobe gave up in game 7 when the Lakers were getting destroyed by the Suns, and the odds of his lackluster teammates helping with a comeback were little to none.

As for Kobe missing big shots? Why does Kobe get credit for being clutch while others don't?

Because Kobe isn't afraid to take those big shots. You can shit on Kobe all you want for not passing the ball to teammates to take the final shot, and even I've bashed him for it, but let's be real: nobody else is willing to take those shots.

LeBron is known for passing the ball to avoid taking the final shot. Pierce? He hits many, but he doesn't take as many. Carmelo is probably close to Kobe in willingness to take those big shots, but he's never taken them in important games; thus, Kobe's clutchness is recognized, while Melo's isn't.



You can say that this is coming from a Lakers fanatic, but if that's true, I wouldn't have bashed Kobe just this past Friday night in this thread:
I attended the Wizards @ Lakers game... SMH (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8374800#post8374800)

[Legends66NBA7]

:oldlol: @ Bryant being one-dimensional. Look at this season alone. Hasn't he adapted to different roles by being an all-around player ? Didn't "Kobe Johnson" happen ?

Granted his defense hasn't been good at all this season, but it's unreasonable for Bryant to play elite level defense at this stage of his career. He has to conserve energy.

And some of the names he selected has more scrutinized and the supposed player he would select of Kobe is just a :facepalm.

Sure, there was some truth to what he said, but a lot of it is also agenda driven and wrong... It's also information I've already seen before and I'm going discredit some of this for the spin job he tried to write down. Seems like a fanboy of some player and also seems like someone I've already talked about concerning this situation.

[Cali Syndicate]

:oldlol: @ Bryant being one-dimensional. Look at this season alone. Hasn't he adapted to different roles by being an all-around player ? Didn't "Kobe Johnson" happen ?

Sometimes I feel Kobe plays a certain way just to prove naysayers wrong.

[guy]

With the reputation Kobe has from the media and his fan base, a casual or non basketball fan would believe Kobe was the best player in the league for like 10 years, no arguments whatsoever. Though this is not the case in reality.

Very well put. He's probably the best player OVERALL for the last 10 years, but not only is what you said true, but AT BEST he was only the best player in the league for half that time and its definitely arguable that it could've been less.

[Legends66NBA7]

Sometimes I feel Kobe plays a certain way just to prove naysayers wrong.

That's a good point, but then again, why would any athlete not want to prove naysayers wrong ?

Again, this season for the majority of games, Kobe's can be the willing to adjust to any role. That puts hole in that article about how Bryant is the second worst teammate (just speaking superstars ?) historically to Rick Barry. Also, career numbers of 25-5-5 on 45/34/84 and playoff numbers of 25-5-5 on 45/34/82 ? Nothing one-dimensional, whatsoever... and he can pick up his defense.

If there's further evidence of his multi-dimensional play, it's all over his career and playoffs, not just this season. If you want to Hakeem Olajuwon over Kobe Bryant, by all means... go right ahead. But to say he is a one-dimensional player is a damn insult and I don't think he has to prove it to the naysayers either.

[NumberSix]

Yeah, Kobe finally gets to play with one of the greatest playmakers of all-time and he suddenly decides he needs to be The Lakers primary playmaker. Coincidence, right?

Are people really this blind?

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, Kobe finally gets to play with one of the greatest playmakers of all-time and he suddenly decides he needs to be The Lakers primary playmaker. Coincidence, right?

Are people really this blind?

I know. Kobe is a ball hog...been obvious since the 01 season. But damn, he's been a successful as hell ball hog.

MJ was one too...but just so good that it was actually a good thing. With Kobe? At times, but not so much these last few years.

[Remix]

Article is so stupid. I can't believe anyone can be obsessed more than posters on ISH in bashing KB24.

It's funny how the guy mentions Kobe "giving up in game 7 of the 2006 Playoffs vs the Suns." Why is it funny? Because he mentions how Kobe giving up was the same as LeBron's.

Umm... LeBron was planning on leaving. He already knew he was signing with the Heat in the off-season, so he just dialed it in. He checked out. He decided to give up in the ENTIRE series.

Kobe gave up in game 7 when the Lakers were getting destroyed by the Suns, and the odds of his lackluster teammates helping with a comeback were little to none.

As for Kobe missing big shots? Why does Kobe get credit for being clutch while others don't?

Because Kobe isn't afraid to take those big shots. You can shit on Kobe all you want for not passing the ball to teammates to take the final shot, and even I've bashed him for it, but let's be real: nobody else is willing to take those shots.

LeBron is known for passing the ball to avoid taking the final shot. Pierce? He hits many, but he doesn't take as many. Carmelo is probably close to Kobe in willingness to take those big shots, but he's never taken them in important games; thus, Kobe's clutchness is recognized, while Melo's isn't.



You can say that this is coming from a Lakers fanatic, but if that's true, I wouldn't have bashed Kobe just this past Friday night in this thread:
I attended the Wizards @ Lakers game... SMH (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8374800#post8374800)
This. Every Laker fan/player wants Kobe to take the gamewinning shot, no matter level of difficulty (to an extent).

Reason? Kobe can do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79y_YCkHhso


His teammates do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbV6dLb_Go4

[Cali Syndicate]

That's a good point, but then again, why would any athlete not want to prove naysayers wrong ?

Again, this season for the majority of games, Kobe's can be the willing to adjust to any role. That puts hole in that article about how Bryant is the second worst teammate (just speaking superstars ?) historically to Rick Barry. Also, career numbers of 25-5-5 on 45/34/84 and playoff numbers of 25-5-5 on 45/34/82 ? Nothing one-dimensional, whatsoever... and he can pick up his defense.

If there's further evidence of his multi-dimensional play, it's all over his career and playoffs, not just this season. If you want to Hakeem Olajuwon over Kobe Bryant, by all means... go right ahead. But to say he is a one-dimensional player is a damn insult and I don't think he has to prove it to the naysayers either.

I think that's the issue though. He needs to prove that he isn't one dimensional. And it is insulting that he has to. And it's funny cause when he does, they scrutinize that too. Some deserving, some not as much. But it never stops with him. I don't know though. He's somewhat branded the NBA's outlaw in a way and I think it's the reason he's been able to be more himself as of late rather than with the typical PR poster boy personality and responses.

But yeah, he definitely isn't one dimensional at all. Obviously he's been a pretty damn good all around basketball player his entire career. Sure he's more bent on scoring than anything else but that's his game. It's like saying, man that John Stockton is so one dimensional, All he can do is pass and set up his teammates. Doesn't he know how to score?

I've never been a fan of the Lakers nor Kobe especially being that the Warriors are division rivals. Not that the Warriors have been soooo relevant this last decade :mad: but still even though I'm not a fan, it doesn't make sense how people don't respect his game. It's absurd.

[Rake2204]

I am not a fan of becoming involved in Kobe Bryant back-and-forths. However, I enjoyed the article. That doesn't mean I agree with everything that was said, but I appreciated the author's willingness to attempt to convey a series of points that often differ from what many tend to bring forth.

Separate from anything directly regarding Bryant, I thought there was a lot of truth to the beginning of his essay, including:


The media generates these narratives for two reasons: 1.) As Rich Conte so eloquently pointed out that I will directly quote him: “Players like [Ray] Lewis that court the cameras and the notebooks and align the media’s interests with their own get the favorable narrative and the chance to win the hearts and minds of the public. The legacy of players (and coaches) that don’t make the media a priority take a hit.” And 2.) Of course, as always is the case in our sad state of affairs today – the money. Certain individuals are inflated for the greater good of the media’s benefits. Particularly if you’re…oh…I don’t know…ESPN, and you have advertising space you need to sell. And that advertising space only increases in value the more ESPN can convince the masses to watch their product during that time frame.

[Legends66NBA7]

Separate from anything directly regarding Bryant, I thought there was a lot of truth to the beginning of his essay, including:

Well, that's the truth of the matter. The media can influence a lot of people's minds.

@ Cali Syndicate - I agree, good post.

[Rake2204]

Well, that's the truth of the matter. The media can influence a lot of people's minds.

@ Cali Syndicate - I agree, good post.Right, and many times, I'm certain the media's on point, but I just think it's always nice to reiterate and remind others that they are not the word of god. Sometimes it's easy to hear something so much on television that we just assume it is true. I know it happens to me, and I know it happens to others, so I enjoy the reminders to remain vigilant and remember why a lot of the media is in business in the first place.

[Overdrive]

As for Kobe missing big shots? Why does Kobe get credit for being clutch while others don't?

Because Kobe isn't afraid to take those big shots. You can shit on Kobe all you want for not passing the ball to teammates to take the final shot, and even I've bashed him for it, but let's be real: nobody else is willing to take those shots.


I hate this stance on clutchness. Don't you think an open teammate wouldn't take a shot given the chance 2 seconds to go?
Some people act like some players would take the ball and keep till the horn.

[BoutPractice]

As for defensive stats, they're all extremely flawed.

While I think that the eye test is often more biased than the best stats out there regarding offense, that is simply not true on defense.

Just watching a player defend for a whole game can tell you exactly how good he is individually on defense. No stats are needed, and here's why:
- individual defensive stats are terrible
- most of the time on defense, there is only one correct move for the defender in context, whereas on offense, you often have several viable choices, especially if you're a shot creating superstar. If the defender moves the way he's supposed to at any given moment (that is, he has both the intention and the physical ability to move the correct way), he can be considered to be individually good on the defensive end, if he doesn't, he's can't. It's as simple as that
- the two things that matter other than movement are speech and intimidation, two things that aren't captured by the stats.

Going by the eye test, 2013 Kobe strikes me as a still capable defender who unfortunately tends to take plays off in order to save his energy for offense, where he excels. (On a somewhat related note, he also has a tendency to blame teammates for his own defensive mistakes, which if you've played basketball is really infuriating and tends to have a negative impact on a team's defensive effort).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yeah, Kobe finally gets to play with one of the greatest playmakers of all-time and he suddenly decides he needs to be The Lakers primary playmaker. Coincidence, right?

Are people really this blind?

Who do you think has been the Lakers primary "playmaker" the last 15 years?

[DatAsh]

Wait, you're talking about Shaq?!

:roll:

???

[DatAsh]

Couldn't finish the entire article. He may be right about some things, like I said, I didn't finish it, but after a couple paragraphs, I could no longer stand the bias.

[iamgine]

In Phil Jackson

[pauk]

Ouch... but im not sure if i would take Pippen over Kobe, unless i needed a more complementary player perhaps.

[TheBigVeto]

kobe is GOAT... anyone who disagrees is just an idiot

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg


http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif


U Mad Kobetards?
Kobetards are phaggits
Kobe isn't a great player, FACT

[TheBigVeto]

http://clnsradio.com/2013/03/26/kobe-bryant-exposing-myths-arguments-fallacies-define-his-inflated-greatness/

Great read. Should be fun to see how his fans come back to solid figures exposing his inflated greatness.

That is GOAT article. :applause: :applause: :applause:
Anybody who doesn't agree is a stupid ****** who doesn't understand basketball.

[pauk]

No, it's just that we've heard it all before. I exposed some of these myths years ago on here.

Yes - Kobe is extremely over-rated in crunch time and on game winners...especially in the playoffs. We've all seen the numbers. However, he's still good. Just because he was over-rated doesn't make him bad. He's still a good to great crunch time player...he's just not head and shoulders better than everyone like his fans claimed. You'd probably rather have guys like Lebron, Paul, Dirk, Durant, and Carmelo over Kobe in crunch time or on game winners. Really not a big revelation for people that aren't die hard Kobe fans that have watched with some objectivity.

Yes - His defense has been hugely over-rated since 03. But he's still a very good defender. Just not as good as his accolades make him out to be. Again, everyone with any bit of objectivity has known this for years.

Yes - Even Kobe has played poorly in big moments. 04 finals, 06 game 7, 08 finals at times. Find me a player who hasn't other than MJ and Russell? So what? Kobe is still one of the best playoff performers ever.

No - Sorry, nobody with a brain would take Pippen or KG over Kobe to start a franchise. Nor West or Baylor. I'm probably the only person that would take Dirk over Kobe...but I'm also biased...although I could make a strong argument imo. But somebody like Pippen? GTFO...and that is when a top ten player of all time like Kobe starts to become horribly under-rated.

He's now in his 17th year. He's still playing at an elite level. His longevity alone is starting to set him apart from many all time greats.

Even if you hate Kobe and think he's over-rated...here are the only players that you could rank over him;

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron

And I think Kobe has a good argument with Bird / Hakeem and Lebron. Lebron for now, but assuming Lebron continues to play at this level and racks up some titles...Lebron will be unquestionably higher on my list.

So articles like that do provide some good data...but everyone here has seen it before. And again...even if you rank him as low as possible...you still get something like the 11th best player ever.

So all that stuff really only matters to the droves of moronic Kobe fans that think he's way better than he actually is.

This.

[kshutts1]

No - Sorry, nobody with a brain would take Pippen or KG over Kobe to start a franchise. Nor West or Baylor. I'm probably the only person that would take Dirk over Kobe...but I'm also biased...although I could make a strong argument imo. But somebody like Pippen? GTFO...and that is when a top ten player of all time like Kobe starts to become horribly under-rated.

Even if you hate Kobe and think he's over-rated...here are the only players that you could rank over him;

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron

And I think Kobe has a good argument with Bird / Hakeem and Lebron. Lebron for now, but assuming Lebron continues to play at this level and racks up some titles...Lebron will be unquestionably higher on my list.


My friend and I were talking about this the other day (I mentioned the Kobe v DRob thread).

First, I have a brain, and I'd take KG over Kobe. Go look at KG as a Wolf (Wolve?) and the stats he put up... the theoretically add another superstar to the team (Kobe had Shaq). Suddenly KG's career is littered with playoff games, moments, wins, titles, etc. Keep in mind that KG was dragging a (mostly) mediocre team to the playoffs almost every year. Also keep in mind that Kobe barely dragged HIS mediocre teams to the playoffs.
Then add in the fact that KG is arguably the most impactful defender in the league, and has been for some time, and yes, I'd take him over Kobe.

Second, players I'd take over Kobe, in no particular order:
MJ
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Olajuwon
Shaq
Duncan
KG

I didn't mean to make that list ten players long; it just happened. However(!!) just because I would choose a player over Kobe does NOT mean that said player is BETTER than Kobe. Just an easier/better building block. ...and for those wondering where Lebron is, I don't know, but it's not far behind. Just keep in mind longevity; Kobe has played 17 season (and counting) while Lebron is only in #10 (or is it #11??). What Lebron has done so far is absolutely incredible... but I'd prefer an all-time great for 17 years over one for 10/11 years, with Jordan being an exception.

[kshutts1]

Oh yeah, and about the article...

Big deal? Any player can be torn apart. Watch the games and tell me Kobe is not great. Does he have flaws? Of course! Who doesn't? But he's great. I once watched a game where MJ played poorly. No, really! It's true! Honest. It happened once, kids.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Since people are bringing up players they would take over Kobe I thought I would post mine. The goal is to ultimately win the championship. There are only a few player I'd take over Kobe to win championships. These are the players I could trust to deliver in the playoffs.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan is an option
Bird is a maybe

[tazb]

Sometimes I feel Kobe plays a certain way just to prove naysayers wrong.

Nah, Kobe isn't one dimensional. He can score and play defense. Guys like Melo, Durant are one dimensional.

[diamenz]

Oh yeah, and about the article...

Big deal? Any player can be torn apart. Watch the games and tell me Kobe is not great. Does he have flaws? Of course! Who doesn't? But he's great. I once watched a game where MJ played poorly. No, really! It's true! Honest. It happened once, kids.

it's not about tearing him apart or exposing him - it's about opening people's eyes a bit wider.

[Legends66NBA7]

Since people are bringing up players they would take over Kobe I thought I would post mine. The goal is to ultimately win the championship. There are only a few player I'd take over Kobe to win championships. These are the players I could trust to deliver in the playoffs.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan is an option
Bird is a maybe

Bill Russell ?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bill Russell ?
Don't know how good he would be in the modern era. Doubt his defense would be so godly that it would make up for his offense.

[theBIGjabroni]

Illmatic only has 5 good songs

[theBIGjabroni]

The beat in the intro is nice too

[kshutts1]

Don't know how good he would be in the modern era. Doubt his defense would be so godly that it would make up for his offense.

Russell averaged about 15ppg for his career to go along with 4apg. Will he contend for a scoring or assist title? No. But he is NOT "just" average on offense, much less below average or even, god forbid, a hindrance.

Above average offense and the best defense... ever? Yes, please. Not to mention his leadership and intangibles are off the charts.

[DMAVS41]

My friend and I were talking about this the other day (I mentioned the Kobe v DRob thread).

First, I have a brain, and I'd take KG over Kobe. Go look at KG as a Wolf (Wolve?) and the stats he put up... the theoretically add another superstar to the team (Kobe had Shaq). Suddenly KG's career is littered with playoff games, moments, wins, titles, etc. Keep in mind that KG was dragging a (mostly) mediocre team to the playoffs almost every year. Also keep in mind that Kobe barely dragged HIS mediocre teams to the playoffs.
Then add in the fact that KG is arguably the most impactful defender in the league, and has been for some time, and yes, I'd take him over Kobe.

Second, players I'd take over Kobe, in no particular order:
MJ
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Olajuwon
Shaq
Duncan
KG

I didn't mean to make that list ten players long; it just happened. However(!!) just because I would choose a player over Kobe does NOT mean that said player is BETTER than Kobe. Just an easier/better building block. ...and for those wondering where Lebron is, I don't know, but it's not far behind. Just keep in mind longevity; Kobe has played 17 season (and counting) while Lebron is only in #10 (or is it #11??). What Lebron has done so far is absolutely incredible... but I'd prefer an all-time great for 17 years over one for 10/11 years, with Jordan being an exception.


I think you over-rate KG, but I'm not going to go crazy about it I guess.

[VeeCee15]

Kobe Bryant never is, never was, and never will be clutch.
He is basically one of the MOST UNCLUTCH players in the league.
he gets bailed out by playing with dominant centers/PFs and takes all their glory. Paul Gasol was finals MVP one year got robbed.

[crisoner]

Kobe Bryant never is, never was, and never will be clutch.
He is basically one of the MOST UNCLUTCH players in the league.
he gets bailed out by playing with dominant centers/PFs and takes all their glory. Paul Gasol was finals MVP one year got robbed.



^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the idiotic crap that comes out of the mouths of today's clueless youth.
This article is nothing but fodder for people who have the same agenda to eat up and celebrate.

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players to ever grace not just a Laker uniform but the game of basketball.
Where he ranks is debatable but saying he is overrated in any shape way or form is pure nonsense. I'm getting sick of this sh*t. Been hearing this for YEARS. Same crap and it just gets twisted every year to make their agenda's relevant.

[TheMarkMadsen]

^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the idiotic crap that comes out of the mouths of today's clueless youth.
This article is nothing but fodder for people who have the same agenda to eat up and celebrate.

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players to ever grace not just a Laker uniform but the game of basketball.
Where he ranks is debatable but saying he is overrated in any shape way or form is pure nonsense. I'm getting sick of this sh*t. Been hearing this for YEARS. Same crap and it just gets twisted every year to make their agenda's relevant.


What's even funnier is half the arguments that people are making for "players they'd pick over Kobe" is all based on theoretical non sense.

Saying you would take Kg over Kobe because "Look at Kgs stats if he had another star he'd do this blah blah blah"

Kobe haters are the funniest because they always try to diminish Kobes championships, and say that other players who had "awesome stats" on worse team would do just as good an have the same amount of sucess if they were in Kobes situation.

Yet when people bring up some of Kobes great individual seasons such as 05_07 the haters try to diminish that b/c his team didn't have much playoff success..

DAT LOGIC

[NumberSix]

^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the idiotic crap that comes out of the mouths of today's clueless youth.
This article is nothing but fodder for people who have the same agenda to eat up and celebrate.

Kobe Bryant is one of the greatest players to ever grace not just a Laker uniform but the game of basketball.
Where he ranks is debatable but saying he is overrated in any shape way or form is pure nonsense. I'm getting sick of this sh*t. Been hearing this for YEARS. Same crap and it just gets twisted every year to make their agenda's relevant.
Kobe isn't overrated....... If you don't overrate him.

[DMAVS41]

What's even funnier is half the arguments that people are making for "players they'd pick over Kobe" is all based on theoretical non sense.

Saying you would take Kg over Kobe because "Look at Kgs stats if he had another star he'd do this blah blah blah"

Kobe haters are the funniest because they always try to diminish Kobes championships, and say that other players who had "awesome stats" on worse team would do just as good an have the same amount of sucess if they were in Kobes situation.

Yet when people bring up some of Kobes great individual seasons such as 05_07 the haters try to diminish that b/c his team didn't have much playoff success..


DAT LOGIC

I agree with most of this, but a large part of it is due to fans and media. Like 06 for example. Obviously Kobe was great in the regular season and perhaps the best player that year. But many fans were claiming he was on par with MJ...maybe the GOAT...etc. etc. And then the Suns series happened. Not that Kobe didn't play well overall, but he didn't do anything really special.

Still to this day I hear people claim he was clearly the best player that year. And I think that is a total logic fail when you factor that series in. You had guys like Lebron and Iverson put up similar numbers in the regular season...and then you had guys like Wade and Dirk rock it in the playoffs.

So you get the over-correction on a lot of this stuff. Think back to 06 and it would have likely been a joke to say that Kobe might not be the best player. But looking at it objectively and actually evaluating what everyone did. You can certainly make arguments for Dirk, Wade, and Lebron all having as good or beter years overall.

[NumberSix]

I agree with most of this, but a large part of it is due to fans and media. Like 06 for example. Obviously Kobe was great in the regular season and perhaps the best player that year. But many fans were claiming he was on par with MJ...maybe the GOAT...etc. etc. And then the Suns series happened. Not that Kobe didn't play well overall, but he didn't do anything really special.

Still to this day I hear people claim he was clearly the best player that year. And I think that is a total logic fail when you factor that series in. You had guys like Lebron and Iverson put up similar numbers in the regular season...and then you had guys like Wade and Dirk rock it in the playoffs.

So you get the over-correction on a lot of this stuff. Think back to 06 and it would have likely been a joke to say that Kobe might not be the best player. But looking at it objectively and actually evaluating what everyone did. You can certainly make arguments for Dirk, Wade, and Lebron all having as good or beter years overall.
Kobe WASN'T the best player in 2006. But you can't tell kobe'tards that. These are the same geniuses that are convinced that Kobe is the current MVP.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The biggest myth is that he was ever the best player in the league at anytime in his career.

[crisoner]

Kobe isn't overrated....... If you don't overrate him.

LOL that is true. And the nuts that put him over the likes of Jordan etc are few.
But the hate he gets is just as bad as you can see on this thread.

[crisoner]

The biggest myth is that he was ever the best player in the league at anytime in his career.

SMH :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Kobe WASN'T the best player in 2006. But you can't tell kobe'tards that. These are the same geniuses that are convinced that Kobe is the current MVP.

He might have been, but my point was that it wasn't clear for anyone with a little objectivity.

I remember watching Iverson play that year and he was doing crazy things as well. Iverson put up 33/7/3 that year on 25 shots a game. Kobe put up 35/5/5 on 27 shots a game. I did think Kobe was better overall, but Iverson literally gets no credit for having such a great year...and only marginally, if that, worse year than Kobe. Not to mention Lebron's 31/7/7 on 23 shots a game.

Those things just go without mention with Kobe fans.

[DMAVS41]

SMH :facepalm

I do think Kobe has been the best player in certain years, but I'm curious which ones you think he was the best.

[NumberSix]

LOL that is true. And the nuts that put him over the likes of Jordan etc are few.
But the hate he gets is just as bad as you can see on this thread.
I don't think Kobe even gets that much hate. He's pretty much a media golden boy, just like every athlete after they've won.

As for online, you gotta understand something. When people "hate on" Kobe, its not really about Kobe. It's more so provoking his fanboys. Like, when people make threads on ISH trashing Kobe, its to provoke certain posters to and their angry but hurt reactions. It's not really about Kobe.

[crisoner]

He might have been, but my point was that it wasn't clear for anyone with a little objectivity.

I remember watching Iverson play that year and he was doing crazy things as well. Iverson put up 33/7/3 that year on 25 shots a game. Kobe put up 35/5/5 on 27 shots a game. I did think Kobe was better overall, but Iverson literally gets no credit for having such a great year...and only marginally, if that, worse year than Kobe. Not to mention Lebron's 31/7/7 on 23 shots a game.

Those things just go without mention with Kobe fans.

Good offensive numbers put up by all three.
BUt which guy was first team NBA defense back then.

[DMAVS41]

Good offensive numbers put up by all three.
BUt which guy was first team NBA defense back then.

Is that award supposed to mean something to me? Because it doesn't and it shouldn't.

[crisoner]

I don't think Kobe even gets that much hate. He's pretty much a media golden boy, just like every athlete after they've won.


Totally disagree. He lost that golden boy title forever after the rape case.
When he won back to back and scored 81 points that gave him some favor back in the national media...but Kobe was never the golden boy. LeBron took over that spot since 2007.




As for online, you gotta understand something. When people "hate on" Kobe, its not really about Kobe. It's more so provoking his fanboys. Like, when people make threads on ISH trashing Kobe, its to provoke certain posters to and their angry but hurt reactions. It's not really about Kobe.

Agreed...and some posters make a living off it. Maybe I been on here to long and im just getting sick of it.

[andgar923]

I don't think Kobe even gets that much hate. He's pretty much a media golden boy, just like every athlete after they've won.

As for online, you gotta understand something. When people "hate on" Kobe, its not really about Kobe. It's more so provoking his fanboys. Like, when people make threads on ISH trashing Kobe, its to provoke certain posters to and their angry but hurt reactions. It's not really about Kobe.

This.

Yes there are some that can't stand him, but most people hate the hype that he gets. Like many of us have pointed out, he'll get praised for making a tough shot but people will ignore the other 5 that he bricked.

That isn't 'hating'.

Most people hate his fans that believe he is the best, that believe only he can do certain things, that degrade past generations and players to prop up his achievements and excuse his failures.

I think this article does an overall excellent job at making the case of how Kobe is overrated. It gives stats *gulp* to back up the argument, which shouldn't leave any question of a doubt.

Most people that are considered 'Kobe haters' rank him amongst the top players of all time with ease… that aint hate. But because he isn't ranked as a top 5 or 10 player they/we are called 'haters'? laughable.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Best players in the league of since 2000:

2000: Shaq
2001: Shaq
2002: Shaq
2003: Duncan
2004: KG
2005: Duncan
2006: Wade (special mention to Dirk)
2007: Duncan
2008: LeBron
2009: LeBron w/ Wade a close 2nd
2010: LeBron
2011: Dirk w/ Dwight, LeBron in the mix
2012: LeBron
2013: LeBron
2014: LeBron

[NumberSix]

Totally disagree. He lost that golden boy title forever after the rape case.
When he won back to back and scored 81 points that gave him some favor back in the national media...but Kobe was never the golden boy. LeBron took over that spot since 2007.





Agreed...and some posters make a living off it. Maybe I been on here to long and im just getting sick of it.
Where da fck have you been the last 2 years?

[crisoner]

Is that award supposed to mean something to me? Because it doesn't and it shouldn't.

Well maybe the award doesn't mean anything to you.,..but the fact the Kobe had a better defensive game back then, then the other two is my point.
He would score all those points and guard the best player on the other team. LeBron wasn't quite there yet back then. And Iverson.......yeah.

[crisoner]

Where da fck have you been the last 2 years?

Are you saying Kobe has been the golden boy the last two years?

[NumberSix]

Are you saying Kobe has been the golden boy the last two years?
Do you understand why people bold print in quotes?

[DMAVS41]

Well maybe the award doesn't mean anything to you.,..but the fact the Kobe had a better defensive game back then, then the other two is my point.
He would score all those points and guard the best player on the other team. LeBron wasn't quite there yet back then. And Iverson.......yeah.

Dont' really think Kobe did much to separate himself defensively back then actually. He might have been better than iverson defensively, but probably not Lebron overall really.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=andgar923]This.

Yes there are some that can't stand him, but most people hate the hype that he gets. Like many of us have pointed out, he'll get praised for making a tough shot but people will ignore the other 5 that he bricked.

That isn't 'hating'.

Most people hate his fans that believe he is the best, that believe only he can do certain things, that degrade past generations and players to prop up his achievements and excuse his failures.

I think this article does an overall excellent job at making the case of how Kobe is overrated. It gives stats *gulp* to back up the argument, which shouldn't leave any question of a doubt.

Most people that are considered 'Kobe haters' rank him amongst the top players of all time with ease

[Legends66NBA7]

Most people hate his fans that believe he is the best, that believe only he can do certain things, that degrade past generations and players to prop up his achievements and excuse his failures.

Yeah, that shouldn't be part of the issue (Kobe's fans) but sadly it is.

And what fanbase doesn't degrade past generations and players to prop up a certain player's achievemetns and excuse his failures ? I've seen it done for any and every "player fanbase". There's just probably more Kobe fans out there than others.

[NumberSix]

Yeah, that shouldn't be part of the issue (Kobe's fans) but sadly it is.

And what fanbase doesn't degrade past generations and players to prop up a certain player's achievemetns and excuse his failures ? I've seen it done for any and every "player fanbase". There's just probably more Kobe fans out there than others.
Shaq fans. We're ok with him having his own greatness. No need to say he's better than Wilt or Kareem like other fans do.

[Legends66NBA7]

Shaq fans. We're ok with him having his own greatness. No need to say he's better than Wilt or Kareem like other fans do.

On the contrary, I actually have seen that happen.

Infact, I have seen some particular Shaq fans say he's either the best player who has ever played or 2nd best.

[Artillery]

The biggest Kobe Bryant myth is his defense. His fanboys like to say he was an elite defender in his prime when the advanced stats say otherwise. At his best, he was an above-average/good defender(not elite though). At his worst, he's a detriment to his team. In fact, he's playing worse defense than Steve Nash this year.

And the most ironic thing is these Kobe stans that paint Lebron as a one-way offensive player...funny because that description fits Kobe more than it does Lebron.

[chazzy]

Dont' really think Kobe did much to separate himself defensively back then actually. He might have been better than iverson defensively, but probably not Lebron overall really.
He didn't play much D in 07 but he did in 06. Lost weight from the previous year and was more active. I don't think he made an all d team the previous year so it wasn't just reputation. And Lebron wasn't really considered a good defender until 08

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Shaq fans. We're ok with him having his own greatness. No need to say he's better than Wilt or Kareem like other fans do.

Too busy trashing on young Kobe? :oldlol:

[SpaceJammeR]

one thing i hate most is when kobe fans call him clutch. they remember the crazy and difficult shot he makes, but forget all the bricks, horrible shot selections, and chucking. he's confident down the stretch but please don't overrate his clutchness.

[willds09]

one thing i hate most is when kobe fans call him clutch. they remember the crazy and difficult shot he makes, but forget all the bricks, horrible shot selections, and chucking. he's confident down the stretch but please don't overrate his clutchness.
here we go, u might as well accept it lebron has years to go to catch up to vino, even m.j said he will pick kobe over lebron:facepalm

[Legends66NBA7]

one thing i hate most is when kobe fans call him clutch. they remember the crazy and difficult shot he makes, but forget all the bricks, horrible shot selections, and chucking.

This, again, can be said about other players too, not just Kobe.

Vince Carter has missed a shit load crazy difficult shots too, but does have a lot impressive makes and a better conversion ratio. Chauncey Billups is called "Mr. Big Shot", yet when I checked that old article by Henry Abbott, he was something like 3-27 in scenarios of 24 seconds or less with the game in the balance. Dwyane Wade also has a terrible conversion ratio, something like 14-48 (not very accurate on this one, but I know it's bad)... These are just a few names, but they have all gotten some what similar treatment and considered clutch also. The difference is that there are more Kobe fans than them.

Kobe is a capable clutch player, so are the rest of the names mentioned. I would trust in most scenarios because they are able to create in tough situations. So there's nothing hate about calling him clutch, when he does have a clutch background, regardless if it's overrated. It depends how you handle his fans.

[PickernRoller]

Taking shots at an old man while he walks out the league. Gonna do a Pauk impersonation. Hyenas huddle up and take pride in driving out the old lion. It was this lion that once in his heyday they never dare to come across. Writers these days, appealing to LeQueen groupies and jumping on the wagon. But hey, it's what it's.

If there is one thing the writer has done well is reinforce the only fact there is about stats. Stats and INTERPRETATIONS of stats can be Misleading. Shithead wouldn't write an article like this in 2009/2010 - knows he would be murdered for being a fool. Only on ISh, only on Ish.

[RRR3]

Taking shots at an old man while he walks out the league. Gonna do a Pauk impersonation. Hyenas huddle up and take pride in driving out the old lion. It was this lion that once in his heyday they never dare to come across. Writers these days, appealing to LeQueen groupies and jumping on the wagon. But hey, it's what it's.

If there is one thing the writer has done well is reinforce the only fact there is about stats. Stats and INTERPRETATIONS of stats can be Misleading. Shithead wouldn't write an article like this in 2009/2010 - knows he would be murdered for being a fool. Only on ISh, only on Ish.
Shades of Pauk:lol

[PickernRoller]

Shades of Pauk:lol

I tried man....Pauk just too good.

[Sharmer]

For the Kobe Stans who said he is GOAT...

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q750/Vicsatre/KobeMJGoat_zpsd2b60e75.gif

[Flamboyant]

Oh I love it!! What do I love? I love how predictable Kobe haters are. First there is an unwarranted outrage about how Kobe is viewed by basketball fans (link in OP.) Then a bunch of Mr.NowItAll's appear saying they are willing to give Kobe all the credit for a level to which they can drag him down by a couple of biased standards, and everything saying he's better than that is unacceptable, and reason for "the hate." Here's a good example:


I agree with most of this, but a large part of it is due to fans and media. Like 06 for example. Obviously Kobe was great in the regular season and perhaps the best player that year. But many fans were claiming he was on par with MJ...maybe the GOAT...etc. etc. And then the Suns series happened. Not that Kobe didn't play well overall, but he didn't do anything really special.

Still to this day I hear people claim he was clearly the best player that year. And I think that is a total logic fail when you factor that series in. You had guys like Lebron and Iverson put up similar numbers in the regular season...and then you had guys like Wade and Dirk rock it in the playoffs.

So you get the over-correction on a lot of this stuff. Think back to 06 and it would have likely been a joke to say that Kobe might not be the best player. But looking at it objectively and actually evaluating what everyone did. You can certainly make arguments for Dirk, Wade, and Lebron all having as good or beter years overall.

Sure, you can make arguments for all of those guys. It's not that different than making a Kobe > Jordan argument. It's an on opinion after all, and one where you can always pick whatever you want to believe. However no one put up similar stats with Kobe that year. Other players had great years too, especially scoring wise, but Kobe was unconscious. Scoring 81 points, outscoring a whole damn team (the best team of that year no less), 27 40+ point games. Kobe scoring 30 was considered ordinary. I'm not saying it as a hyperbole, you literally couldn't just say to someone who followed NBA "Hey Kobe scored 30 pts last night." The response was a mere "Huh." In a year where Iverson, LeBron, and Arenas had their career highs in ppg, Kobe was head and shoulders above them. He had one of the greatest regular seasons by an individual in NBA history. In fact take his ppg and divided it by league average ppg. It's THE GREATEST by a premiter player. Take the pts/36mins and you're looking at the flat out GREATEST SCORING OUTPUT IN NBA HISTORY. But sure many had similar seasons. :rolleyes:

Now after this amazing regular season there came the playoffs. Lets revise history on how was the series projected to pan out: Kobe is teh Goat he gun chit on everrry teem sooooo badd.

Let's get real, and here's some of the things I actually read at that time: The lakers will get swept. If they're lucky some of the games might be close. Kobe can't win without Shaq, and we all now this. He's just a chucker. He may end up averaging 50 ppg, and it still won't mean a thing, cause the Suns will just roll past the Lakers.

And I gotta come clean a Suns sweep was my prediction too. They were simply the better team, and for an individual based offense a great offensive team should be much harder to upset than a defensive one. Regular season meeting were pointing this too. What happened: Kobe played amazingly unselfish. He didn't force anything that much. Odom (who was SF in RS) moved to PF, and started causing a lot of problems. Lakers actually showed that this series will be harder than expected from game 1, and managed to win games 2 and 3. After that we had game 4, where Kobe unexpectedly QUIT on his team. What the hell was he thinking. Suns were up by eight with less than 6 minutes to go, and Kobe doesn't attempt a single FG up til there's less than 30 secs left. And as if that wasn't enough, he does it again in the overtime. MY GOD. He had only 3 field goals in 4th quarter and overtime COMBINED. Just look at this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFXV-NBEX8&t) 3:25, 5:40, and 6:20 are his only field goals. He had a total of 14 FGA in a close game that went to overtime. QuitBe. :rolleyes: After they lost game five, in game six Kobe scores 9 points in the 4th, including a 5-0 run by himself when his team was down by 2 in the last 2 minutes. It comes down to final possession, and the lakers 1. fail to get a defensive rebound, and 2. Give a wide open look to Thomas, when all they had to do was defend 3 pointers. In the OT Kobe goes for 5-7 FGs, 2-3 3pt, 12 pts. His teammates add 0-3 FGs, 1-3 FTs, 1 point. more rolleyes :rolleyes:

And then comes the infamous game 7. In the first half almost Kobe matches his game 4. He shoots 8-13 FG, 4-6 3pt, 3-4 FT, for 23 points in first half alone. But the Lakers are getting blown out. Kobe comes to second half, but isn't trying. The commentator here says something along the lines "Phil Jackson is doing something really smart now. He'll play Kobe the whole second half, but will only use him as a decoy, and if the others will manage to get the score closer he'll have enough energy to carry them in the end." Nevertheless the Suns kept growing their lead, and the Lakers/Kobe eventually had to give up. Still in the 3rd when Phoenix noticed this strategy, and started to give him space, the guy that was quitting immediately was raising his hands, and shot a couple of three's just so the defense won't play him off, (but missed em both.)

The Aftermath: Kobe is remembered as a choker for blowing a 3-1 series lead against the team that owned them in the regular season, and was supposed to sweep them easily. He supposedly quit on his team, even though in the last 3 games he scored 34 ppg on 56%FG, and 65%eFG. :rolleyes: x100

I make a similar post like this almost every year, and then leave this whole Kobe vs Rest of The World debates to infinite trolling power of this forum. My point is I wasn't always a Kobe fan. I am a big T-Mac, and especially AI fan, and used to claim both of them were better than Kobe. But there are two series in Kobe's career that made me a huge fan of him. First one is the 03 Spurs series, when the 24 year old guy, who had won the title in the last 3 years, covered his head with his towel to hide his frustration (maybe even tears) after he was being eliminated. The second one is the 06 Suns series, where Kobe could have gone for the playoff single game scoring record, or the highest ppg in a series, but put the team success in front of everything else. In both of the series the penultimate games were true heartbreakers. To me these series showed greatness. To the basketball illiterate it's just Kobe getting blown out in the final game.

If you can't appreciate him, shame on you. Not you as DMAVS41, but you as all you Kobe haters, insecure Jordan stans, and all who try to spin facts to fit their agendas, and even dumb Laker fans who actually believe any of this. Kobe's 06 Suns series is one of the best efforts I've seen from the losing side. But the article in the OP had a nice explanation for all of this:

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=Flamboyant]Oh I love it!! What do I love? I love how predictable Kobe haters are. First there is an unwarranted outrage about how Kobe is viewed by basketball fans (link in OP.) Then a bunch of Mr.NowItAll's appear saying they are willing to give Kobe all the credit for a level to which they can drag him down by a couple of biased standards, and everything saying he's better than that is unacceptable, and reason for "the hate." Here's a good example:



Sure, you can make arguments for all of those guys. It's not that different than making a Kobe > Jordan argument. It's an on opinion after all, and one where you can always pick whatever you want to believe. However no one put up similar stats with Kobe that year. Other players had great years too, especially scoring wise, but Kobe was unconscious. Scoring 81 points, outscoring a whole damn team (the best team of that year no less), 27 40+ point games. Kobe scoring 30 was considered ordinary. I'm not saying it as a hyperbole, you literally couldn't just say to someone who followed NBA "Hey Kobe scored 30 pts last night." The response was a mere "Huh." In a year where Iverson, LeBron, and Arenas had their career highs in ppg, Kobe was head and shoulders above them. He had one of the greatest regular seasons by an individual in NBA history. In fact take his ppg and divided it by league average ppg. It's THE GREATEST by a premiter player. Take the pts/36mins and you're looking at the flat out GREATEST SCORING OUTPUT IN NBA HISTORY. But sure many had similar seasons. :rolleyes:

Now after this amazing regular season there came the playoffs. Lets revise history on how was the series projected to pan out: Kobe is teh Goat he gun chit on everrry teem sooooo badd.

Let's get real, and here's some of the things I actually read at that time: The lakers will get swept. If they're lucky some of the games might be close. Kobe can't win without Shaq, and we all now this. He's just a chucker. He may end up averaging 50 ppg, and it still won't mean a thing, cause the Suns will just roll past the Lakers.

And I gotta come clean a Suns sweep was my prediction too. They were simply the better team, and for an individual based offense a great offensive team should be much harder to upset than a defensive one. Regular season meeting were pointing this too. What happened: Kobe played amazingly unselfish. He didn't force anything that much. Odom (who was SF in RS) moved to PF, and started causing a lot of problems. Lakers actually showed that this series will be harder than expected from game 1, and managed to win games 2 and 3. After that we had game 4, where Kobe unexpectedly QUIT on his team. What the hell was he thinking. Suns were up by eight with less than 6 minutes to go, and Kobe doesn't attempt a single FG up til there's less than 30 secs left. And as if that wasn't enough, he does it again in the overtime. MY GOD. He had only 3 field goals in 4th quarter and overtime COMBINED. Just look at this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFXV-NBEX8&t) 3:25, 5:40, and 6:20 are his only field goals. He had a total of 14 FGA in a close game that went to overtime. QuitBe. :rolleyes: After they lost game five, in game six Kobe scores 9 points in the 4th, including a 5-0 run by himself when his team was down by 2 in the last 2 minutes. It comes down to final possession, and the lakers 1. fail to get a defensive rebound, and 2. Give a wide open look to Thomas, when all they had to do was defend 3 pointers. In the OT Kobe goes for 5-7 FGs, 2-3 3pt, 12 pts. His teammates add 0-3 FGs, 1-3 FTs, 1 point. more rolleyes :rolleyes:

And then comes the infamous game 7. In the first half almost Kobe matches his game 4. He shoots 8-13 FG, 4-6 3pt, 3-4 FT, for 23 points in first half alone. But the Lakers are getting blown out. Kobe comes to second half, but isn't trying. The commentator here says something along the lines "Phil Jackson is doing something really smart now. He'll play Kobe the whole second half, but will only use him as a decoy, and if the others will manage to get the score closer he'll have enough energy to carry them in the end." Nevertheless the Suns kept growing their lead, and the Lakers/Kobe eventually had to give up. Still in the 3rd when Phoenix noticed this strategy, and started to give him space, the guy that was quitting immediately was raising his hands, and shot a couple of three's just so the defense won't play him off, (but missed em both.)

The Aftermath: Kobe is remembered as a choker for blowing a 3-1 series lead against the team that owned them in the regular season, and was supposed to sweep them easily. He supposedly quit on his team, even though in the last 3 games he scored 34 ppg on 56%FG, and 65%eFG. :rolleyes: x100

I make a similar post like this almost every year, and then leave this whole Kobe vs Rest of The World debates to infinite trolling power of this forum. My point is I wasn't always a Kobe fan. I am a big T-Mac, and especially AI fan, and used to claim both of them were better than Kobe. But there are two series in Kobe's career that made me a huge fan of him. First one is the 03 Spurs series, when the 24 year old guy, who had won the title in the last 3 years, covered his head with his towel to hide his frustration (maybe even tears) after he was being eliminated. The second one is the 06 Suns series, where Kobe could have gone for the playoff single game scoring record, or the highest ppg in a series, but put the team success in front of everything else. In both of the series the penultimate games were true heartbreakers. To me these series showed greatness. To the basketball illiterate it's just Kobe getting blown out in the final game.

If you can't appreciate him, shame on you. Not you as DMAVS41, but you as all you Kobe haters, insecure Jordan stans, and all who try to spin facts to fit their agendas, and even dumb Laker fans who actually believe any of this. Kobe's 06 Suns series is one of the best efforts I've seen from the losing side. But the article in the OP had a nice explanation for all of this:

[DMAVS41]

He didn't play much D in 07 but he did in 06. Lost weight from the previous year and was more active. I don't think he made an all d team the previous year so it wasn't just reputation. And Lebron wasn't really considered a good defender until 08

So how big of a gap defensively do you think there was impact wise between kobe and iverson / wade / lebron /dirk?

As big as the current gap between a guy like Westbrook and Kobe? And do you think Westbrook should be considered better than Kobe because of his great defense?

[TheBigVeto]

Taking shots at an old man while he walks out the league. Gonna do a Pauk impersonation. Hyenas huddle up and take pride in driving out the old lion. It was this lion that once in his heyday they never dare to come across. Writers these days, appealing to LeQueen groupies and jumping on the wagon. But hey, it's what it's.

If there is one thing the writer has done well is reinforce the only fact there is about stats. Stats and INTERPRETATIONS of stats can be Misleading. Shithead wouldn't write an article like this in 2009/2010 - knows he would be murdered for being a fool. Only on ISh, only on Ish.

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg


http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif

[Doctor Rivers]

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg


http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif

Negging you is awesome