Warner: NBA Will be Without a 20-10 Big Man for First Time

[Anaximandro1]

:eek:

[QUOTE]More proof that the dominant NBA big man is as endangered as liberal Republicans: For the first time in league history, no player is going to average at least 20 points and 10 rebounds per game

Only 11 players are averaging 10 or more rebounds, and the highest scorer in that group is Golden State

[PJR]

That's pretty crazy. More evidence than ever that the NBA is a pick and roll league now.

[Graviton]

Rules don't benefit bigs nowaday, even if you had dominant big men they wouldn't have as much impact in the current league.

[SyRyanYang]

-the rules

[SacJB Shady]

Lee has the most 20-10 games. Round up to 19 and 11, that's equal to 20 and 10 basically

[Riley Martin]

What happened to Griffin? Wasn't he averaging 20/10 his first 2 seasons?

[bizil]

I happen to think guys like Ewing, Robinson, and Dream would be MORE DOMINANT today. Reason being all three were amongst the best faceup midrange shooters ever for 7 footers whose main position was center. Robinson and Dream were freak athletes who could get out and fill the lane great for big men. And all three would bang glass and were excellent rebounders. With the new defensive rules u can pack the paint easier. But once again, Dream, Pat, and D-Rob were very adept at passing out of a double team. I think eventually if u get big guys like those three, u will see them DOMINATE what we currently see in the L today. Howard in the mid 90's would have been at best the fifth or sixth best center in the L. Even at that point, u have guys like Zo, Brad Daugherty, Mutumbo, Smits, Divac, etc. U can make the argument that Zo, Mutumbo, and Brad Daugherty's peak values were HOF caliber. But once again the key with Pat, Dream, and Admiral is that they can DOMINATE scoring wise outside of the paint. Guys like Howard can't play outside of the paint and DOMINATE scoring.

[SyRyanYang]

What happened to Griffin? Wasn't he averaging 20/10 his first 2 seasons?
Reduced minutes, more focus on defense and setting up teammates.

[DuMa]

Kevin Love would be the only one averaging that if he was healthy.

[Graviton]

Reduced minutes, more focus on defense and setting up teammates.
And all that has led to ton of losses. For Clippers to go far Griffin needs to dominate, not be Carlos Boozer.

[wally_world]

Lee has the most 20-10 games. Round up to 19 and 11, that's equal to 20 and 10 basically

Yeah, which is basically 30/15

[Rubio2Gasol]

Hate when people say rules don't benefit bigs? Why should they? Why should big men be treated different from the rest of the league?

It's not difficult for big men to average 20/10....why don't they? because them averaging 20/10 doesn't benefit their team as much. Kevin love averages 20/12 when healthy, and his team would be better off with him averaging 18/12 and playing better D.

To me it's very simple....bigs don't post up anymore? Why? Because none are good enough to make that sort tactic worthwhile except maybe Bynum...so no one if going to have offenses running through them. It's harder to score because you can zone them.

Then there's the pick and roll dudes, if they good enough they can get the points and get the rebounds....but most of the time they too lazy to do both.Whose fault is that? the NBA?

A 38 year old Duncan is dominating this league, you think a 29 year old Duncan couldn't?

Give me a break.

[ILLsmak]

Hate when people say rules don't benefit bigs? Why should they? Why should big men be treated different from the rest of the league?

It's not difficult for big men to average 20/10....why don't they? because them averaging 20/10 doesn't benefit their team as much. Kevin love averages 20/12 when healthy, and his team would be better off with him averaging 18/12 and playing better D.

To me it's very simple....bigs don't post up anymore? Why? Because none are good enough to make that sort tactic worthwhile except maybe Bynum...so no one if going to have offenses running through them. It's harder to score because you can zone them.

Then there's the pick and roll dudes, if they good enough they can get the points and get the rebounds....but most of the time they too lazy to do both.Whose fault is that? the NBA?

A 38 year old Duncan is dominating this league, you think a 29 year old Duncan couldn't?

Give me a break.

5 second backdown, flopping. Zone D. Hack-a-...

Nobody wants the rules to benefit bigs, but it'd be nice if it was equal. It's just not. Rebounds are still happening but 20 point bigs aren't. Shit remember 25 point bigs? 30 point bigs?

-Smak

[bdreason]

That's what happens when the NBA continues to create rules that benefit perimeter players in the name of 'entertainment'.

[jstern]

A week ago I was looking at the top 20 players in PPG, 8 of them were point guards and none of them were center.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/year/2013/seasontype/2

[L.Kizzle]

Rules don't benefit bigs nowaday, even if you had dominant big men they wouldn't have as much impact in the current league.
Not sure is serious. Prime Shaq or Hakeem in this era would make easy work out of the likes of Hibbert and Noah.

[bdreason]

Not sure is serious. Prime Shaq or Hakeem in this era would make easy work out of the likes of Hibbert and Noah.


Shaq was a great player, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective with modern rules. He would be doubled before he touched the ball, called for 5 seconds on post ups, and fighting foul trouble every game because the physicality has been stripped from the game.


Also, the real issue is that teams have figured out, with the new rules, that you're better off slashing to the hoop then posting up, because the perimeter can't be defended, and the paint can't be protected (def 3 sec). There are still plenty of bigs in the NBA that are capable of 20/10, but their teams choose not to showcase them, because the rules heavily favor perimeter scoring.

Of the top 10 players who get to the FT line in the NBA, 9 are perimeter scorers, and 1 is Dwight Howard, who only gets to the line consistently because teams intentionally foul him.

[Richesly]

We are entering the era of the Guards.


Oh lord.

[L.Kizzle]

Shaq was a great player, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective with modern rules. He would be doubled before he touched the ball, called for 5 seconds on post ups, and fighting foul trouble every game because the physicality has been stripped from the game.


Also, the real issue is that teams have figured out, with the new rules, that you're better off slashing to the hoop then posting up, because the perimeter can't be defended, and the paint can't be protected (def 3 sec). There are still plenty of bigs in the NBA that are capable of 20/10, but their teams choose not to showcase them, because the rules heavily favor perimeter scoring.

Of the top 10 players who get to the FT line in the NBA, 9 are perimeter scorers, and 1 is Dwight Howard, who only gets to the line consistently because teams intentionally foul him.
Dwight has no post moves, do you you see what a 37 year old Tim Duncan is doing? You do know Shaq avg 18/8 four years ago for Phoenix right? Brook Lopez is 19/7 this season ... :biggums:

[qrich]

Elton Brand would have still dropped 20/10 easily if he was in his prime, in my opinion. The guy was just a workhorse and he wouldn't have had as much trouble adapting.

I'd trade Blake for 2005 Elton without thinking twice.

[bdreason]

Dwight has no post moves, do you you see what a 37 year old Tim Duncan is doing? You do know Shaq avg 18/8 four years ago for Phoenix right? Brook Lopez is 19/7 this season ... :biggums:


Prime Shaq was 30/14/4 on 57%.

[L.Kizzle]

Prime Shaq was 30/14/4 on 57%.
And if a fat, 37 year old Shaq on his last legs can put up 18/8, that should tell you something about the current league.

[bdreason]

And if a fat, 37 year old Shaq on his last legs can put up 18/8, that should tell you something about the current league.


I don't believe prime Shaq in the modern NBA would average anywhere near 30/14/4. Teams would double him hard (before the catch), and he would be battling foul trouble a lot more. I'm sure he could still post 25/12/4 type numbers, but his overall impact on the game would be diminished, especially with how many of the elite teams are now built.

I actually feel like Orlando Shaq may be a superior player in the modern NBA. Shaq was obviously a superior player during his Lakers years, playing in the triangle offense... but a young Shaq on one of these elite open court teams like the Heat or Thunder would be scary. Again though, his overall impact on the game wouldn't be the same IMO.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I think there is a lack of dominant bigs. I mean the rules are different, and they encourage a new style of ball, but I think also there isn't anyone who is ready to take up that mantle. With Duncan, KG, And Dirk in twilight there's a gap. Unfortunately no one seems to be putting together the mental, physical, and health side of it all together to be truly dominant.

There's talent out there. Dwight, Cousins, Lee, etc. but no one has really stepped into that role. It looked like all was good with a young crop, those guys plus Oden and the like, but shit happened.

I do think Anthony Davis is going to evolve into a dominant big, and I think you still have the potential for guys like Cousins, Drummond, to evolve too. But it may be a while until we see someone like the leaders of the previous generation come along.

[andremiller07]

Elton Brand would have still dropped 20/10 easily if he was in his prime, in my opinion. The guy was just a workhorse and he wouldn't have had as much trouble adapting.

I'd trade Blake for 2005 Elton without thinking twice.

I assume that was the season where he went completely nuts in the playoff as well that was one of the most underrated seasons by a big ever. Yeah Brand would def be up there if still in his prime.

[L.Kizzle]

I don't believe prime Shaq in the modern NBA would average anywhere near 30/14/4. Teams would double him hard (before the catch), and he would be battling foul trouble a lot more. I'm sure he could still post 25/12/4 type numbers, but his overall impact on the game would be diminished, especially with how many of the elite teams are now built.

I actually feel like Orlando Shaq may be a superior player in the modern NBA. Shaq was obviously a superior player during his Lakers years, playing in the triangle offense... but a young Shaq on one of these elite open court teams like the Heat or Thunder would be scary. Again though, his overall impact on the game wouldn't be the same IMO.
I'm the complete opposite, what's the difference with the doubling now that they did on him back in the day? And how would he get into foul trouble, other than goin for loose balls he wouldn't waist any on offense. He's be even more dominate today, the competition and dwindled in size even more now then in 2000. We thought Matt Gieger and Eric Dampier were scrubs, get a load at the guys now.

[D.J.]

Today's game favors perimeter players. It promotes slashing, pick and rolls, and jump shooting. Then you have the elimination of hand checking and the addition of a defensive 3 seconds. Playing man-to-man D almost isn't worth it. Your 2 forwards will have much more of an impact than your center.

[bdreason]

I'm the complete opposite, what's the difference with the doubling now that they did on him back in the day? And how would he get into foul trouble, other than goin for loose balls he wouldn't waist any on offense. He's be even more dominate today, the competition and dwindled in size even more now then in 2000. We thought Matt Gieger and Eric Dampier were scrubs, get a load at the guys now.


The difference in doubling the post is immense. Before, the defender had to wait until the post player caught the ball before he could double. If the defender came early, it was a technical foul. With the current rules, the defender can double the post player whenever he wants, as long as he isn't in the paint for 3 seconds. This makes it easier for the defender to both double the post, and recover from the double. That's what made Shaq such a headache. If you didn't double, he would eat his man alive 1v1. If you doubled, you were essentially conceding an open jumper.

As for the foul trouble, the league is just softer all around. More offensive fouls called (flopping), and more defensive fouls called on bigs, especially considering more teams offensive strategies revolve around slashing to the paint and getting the FT line (as opposed to posting, and playing inside-out).

[D.J.]

We thought Matt Gieger and Eric Dampier were scrubs, get a load at the guys now.


They weren't scrubs. They had roles to play and did them well. Geiger's role was to grab rebounds in limited minutes and absorb fouls. Geiger was averaging around 12/7 at his best. Dampier had a 12/12 season and was averaging around 2 BPG at his best.

The difference is Geiger often came off the bench. Dampier usually started and the backup center got the starter minutes. But with Dampier, he played out west so he faced Shaq regularly up until 2004. Dampier was foul prone to begin with, but he was very effective if he was playing between 20 and 25 MPG. Solid rebounding numbers and elite shot blocking.

[Cali Syndicate]

Shaq basically played the second half of his career with the five second rule and the elimination of illegal defense implemented. He was still a dominant player for a number of seasons before Father Time started checking in. And he wasn't nearly in shape as he was in the mid and late 90's. prime Shaq could still put up 25-30ppg no problem if the offense played through him, which I'm guessing most if not all teams would. Grabbing 10 boards is not even a question.

Even if defenses were to swarm Shaq, he had good court vision and with the right players round him, he would make you pay.

[inclinerator]

shaq would seal any midget guarding him and dunk it everytime

[Sakkreth]

JV will average that in two years and probably close to it next year.

[julizaver]

And if a fat, 37 year old Shaq on his last legs can put up 18/8, that should tell you something about the current league.

Shaq always had weight issues during his whole career with the exception of his rookey year. But to the other side in offense he used his mass body deadly effective in the low post by moving opponents, using his shoulders.
In my opinion was he able to control his weight about 310-315 pounds, he would be more capable in defense and would have more healthy career.

[La Frescobaldi]

Hate when people say rules don't benefit bigs? Why should they? Why should big men be treated different from the rest of the league?

It's not difficult for big men to average 20/10....why don't they? because them averaging 20/10 doesn't benefit their team as much. Kevin love averages 20/12 when healthy, and his team would be better off with him averaging 18/12 and playing better D.

To me it's very simple....bigs don't post up anymore? Why? Because none are good enough to make that sort tactic worthwhile except maybe Bynum...so no one if going to have offenses running through them. It's harder to score because you can zone them.

Then there's the pick and roll dudes, if they good enough they can get the points and get the rebounds....but most of the time they too lazy to do both.Whose fault is that? the NBA?

A 38 year old Duncan is dominating this league, you think a 29 year old Duncan couldn't?

Give me a break.
Are you serious?
They MADE rules to keep centers from dominating. It's weird to say bigs shouldn't be treated differently when the rules were deliberately changed to treat them differently!!

[La Frescobaldi]

Shaq was a great player, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective with modern rules. He would be doubled before he touched the ball, called for 5 seconds on post ups, and fighting foul trouble every game because the physicality has been stripped from the game.


Also, the real issue is that teams have figured out, with the new rules, that you're better off slashing to the hoop then posting up, because the perimeter can't be defended, and the paint can't be protected (def 3 sec). There are still plenty of bigs in the NBA that are capable of 20/10, but their teams choose not to showcase them, because the rules heavily favor perimeter scoring.

Of the top 10 players who get to the FT line in the NBA, 9 are perimeter scorers, and 1 is Dwight Howard, who only gets to the line consistently because teams intentionally foul him.
O'Neal put up his same numbers he always did in 2009 when you consider he was 5 minutes off of his average mpg.
This is the Wilt Chamberlain argument of eras... to the exquisite point of absurdity

[julizaver]

Dwight Howard is 20-10 capable and at the end of the season he would be 19 13. But he has no offense game as Hakeem, D. Robinson or Ewing for example - even Shaq was more skillful and far more potent in offense.

It is a weak center era, not because of the rules. I remembered once Shaq made a sky hook to honor K. A. Jabbar who was in the stands and said after the game that as a junior he practiced sky hooks a lot but later he abounded the shot because it was "not sexy" and was "old fashioned". We can find also video from his college years in youtube and will see him jump shooting. The point is that Shaq was part of that rap generation which want to the flashy things like dunking the ball all the time, not making "old fashioned" moves.
The players from Europe like Gasol brothers for example had more fundamentals in their game than young black fellows. But lack their athleticism.
And I did not see in future how a player of Shaq or Ewing, D.Robinson caliber will appears soon. Nowadays everything is filmed and such type of talent would be regarded as instant prodigy even at school so we could knew of him already.

[Y2Gezee]

I blame Kobe and Lebron and Wade.

[julizaver]

Are you serious?
They MADE rules to keep centers from dominating. It's weird to say bigs shouldn't be treated differently when the rules were deliberately changed to treat them differently!!

Agree, after Chamberlain appears (even before his sophomore year in Kansas) they implemented rules in order to prevent big guys from just sitting under the basket and dominate. But even after that they still were able to dominate, because size is not everything in basketball.

[senelcoolidge]

We are witnessing a weak era in the NBA. Hopefully things will turn around and get good again.

[Y2Gezee]

We are witnessing a weak era in the NBA. Hopefully things will turn around and get good again.



This is actually a Golden Era in the NBA, could perhaps be the best since the 80s. The game has just changed. Many players that have averaged these numbers are currently playing...just on loaded teams. Bosh, Blake, Howard. K Love basically out for the year.

There are a lot of good teams that have the talent to win it all, but that's on paper...injuries have hurt this year. It's not often you get so many star pairings.

[iamgine]

The reason there's no 20-10 big man is because Kevin Love is injured.

[madmax]

I'm the complete opposite, what's the difference with the doubling now that they did on him back in the day? And how would he get into foul trouble, other than goin for loose balls he wouldn't waist any on offense. He's be even more dominate today, the competition and dwindled in size even more now then in 2000. We thought Matt Gieger and Eric Dampier were scrubs, get a load at the guys now.

Shaq was always a horrible p'n'r defender and with today's rules he would be constantly abused defensively by modern era quick bigs. So yeah, he would maybe get his numbers offensively (IF refs today were as lenient as back then when it comes to his pushing and shoving in the paint), but on the other side of the court he would a liability. It's a different game today

[b0bab0i]

And all that has led to ton of losses. For Clippers to go far Griffin needs to dominate, not be Carlos Boozer.
Clippers will have the best record in franchise history this season.
Griffin has improved in other areas this season.

[BoutPractice]

It's an anomaly, I wouldn't overinterpret this.
Healthy Dwight with a minimum of self-respect should be averaging at least 20 and 14, it's not like he doesn't have the ability.
A healthy Andrew Bynum made the focal point of his team's offense should also contribute 20/10.
Healthy Kevin Love is always good for huge scoring and rebounding numbers.
Tim Duncan is in fact a 20/10 player, he's just saving himself.
Blake's another 20/10 player but his team plays a very deep rotation.
David Lee and DeMarcus Cousins are almost there.
You also have some promising bigs with 20/10 potential in the long run, starting with Anthony Davis.

[julizaver]

This is actually a Golden Era in the NBA, could perhaps be the best since the 80s. The game has just changed. Many players that have averaged these numbers are currently playing...just on loaded teams. Bosh, Blake, Howard. K Love basically out for the year.

There are a lot of good teams that have the talent to win it all, but that's on paper...injuries have hurt this year. It's not often you get so many star pairings.

Most people regarded the 80s and partly 90s as the golden era in basketball and there is a reason about it. The most entertaining also.

Bosh, Blake, Howard, K. Love are mediocre players when comparing to Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, D.Robinson and Ewing. Not to mention Malone and Jabbar. Bosh - sidekick to LeBron and Wade, Blake has the potential but somehow still far away from being great, Howard - limited skills with pure athleticism 19 - 12 player when he should be dominating in this weak centers era - Shaq was 30 - 13 in Lakers uniform, K. Love - rebounding specialist with addition of shooting 3s (in total very low FG %).

[ripthekik]

this is the season that lebron wins :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Overdrive]

Shaq was always a horrible p'n'r defender and with today's rules he would be constantly abused defensively by modern era quick bigs. So yeah, he would maybe get his numbers offensively (IF refs today were as lenient as back then when it comes to his pushing and shoving in the paint), but on the other side of the court he would a liability. It's a different game today

That's why Dwight, the best center in the league for the last few years, was so otherworldly effective against a way past his prime Shaq..

[julizaver]

That's why Dwight, the best center in the league for the last few years, was so otherworldly effective against a way past his prime Shaq..

A fast check in basketball-refference shows O'Neal (past his prime) scoring 16 ppg on 0.630 shooting in 28 minutes per game vs Dwight.

[madmax]

A fast check in basketball-refference shows O'Neal (past his prime) scoring 16 ppg on 0.630 shooting in 28 minutes per game vs Dwight.

what's your point?:confusedshrug:
I never questioned O'Neal's offensive prowess. And he still had plenty of playoff series and games when his direct opponents outplayed or at least matched his impact on the court. He was never elite or even good defensive anchor - that's just a fact

[Overdrive]

what's your point?:confusedshrug:
I never questioned O'Neal's offensive prowess. And he still had plenty of playoff series and games when his direct opponents outplayed or at least matched his impact on the court. He was never elite or even good defensive anchor - that's just a fact

That's no fact, but you can lay down those facts with links if you like.

[julizaver]

what's your point?:confusedshrug:
I never questioned O'Neal's offensive prowess. And he still had plenty of playoff series and games when his direct opponents outplayed or at least matched his impact on the court. He was never elite or even good defensive anchor - that's just a fact

It was for user Overdrive, BUT as you asked me I can tell you that NOW WAY modern era "QUICK BIG GUYS" abused Shaq, since they were not able to abuse him as near 40 years old. He was not famous for his defense BUT he was always a presence in the middle.

Tell me who of the modern era guys will abuse prime Shaq in your honest opinion ?

[madmax]

It was for user Overdrive, BUT as you asked me I can tell you that NOW WAY modern era "QUICK BIG GUYS" abused Shaq, since they were not able to abuse him as near 40 years old. He was not famous for his defense BUT he was always a presence in the middle.

Tell me who of the modern era guys will abuse prime Shaq in your honest opinion ?

the way I see it, centers true value stems from their defensive efforts first and foremost. That's why I can safely claim that Olajuwon was a much better all-around player than Shaq. Same goes for Duncan too - his teams always overachieved despite not having adequate rosters to the likes of 3-peat Lakers for example. Having a great offensive center is very good, but a defensive anchor always triumphs over the offensive one. Just ask Bill Russell, who is a greatest winner of all time:cheers:

[gasolina]

Dwight Howard in Orlando was the equivalent of pre zone rules and the more complex "strong side loading" the better defensive teams implement now.

He had shooters all over that teams cannot load on him or give up a free three.

Defensively its much worse, you can bump post players out but cant touch the Wades and Lebrons and Durants. Guess who needs to contest/foul them when they get to the rim at will? Yeah big guys need to take one more for the team.

Honestly I like the zone rules. Teams shouldnt be prevented from running whatever defense they wanted. What they should bring back is the hand checking. Its the #1 reason were having this pick and roll, kick out to three league. If they're not going to allow comtact at the perimeter, then post players should be called like that too. No double standard

[L.Kizzle]

They weren't scrubs. They had roles to play and did them well. Geiger's role was to grab rebounds in limited minutes and absorb fouls. Geiger was averaging around 12/7 at his best. Dampier had a 12/12 season and was averaging around 2 BPG at his best.

The difference is Geiger often came off the bench. Dampier usually started and the backup center got the starter minutes. But with Dampier, he played out west so he faced Shaq regularly up until 2004. Dampier was foul prone to begin with, but he was very effective if he was playing between 20 and 25 MPG. Solid rebounding numbers and elite shot blocking.
I was just throwing out names from that period, and yes they were scrubs.

[L.Kizzle]

Shaq was always a horrible p'n'r defender and with today's rules he would be constantly abused defensively by modern era quick bigs. So yeah, he would maybe get his numbers offensively (IF refs today were as lenient as back then when it comes to his pushing and shoving in the paint), but on the other side of the court he would a liability. It's a different game today
Please tell me what current centers would be abusing Shaq?

:biggums:

[chips93]

The difference in doubling the post is immense. Before, the defender had to wait until the post player caught the ball before he could double. If the defender came early, it was a technical foul. With the current rules, the defender can double the post player whenever he wants, as long as he isn't in the paint for 3 seconds. This makes it easier for the defender to both double the post, and recover from the double. That's what made Shaq such a headache. If you didn't double, he would eat his man alive 1v1. If you doubled, you were essentially conceding an open jumper.

its even worse than that

with the old zone rules, you had to be guarding somebody at all times, so if you double down on somebody, you have your other 3 defenders guarding 3 offensive players, and one guy wide open, but now, if you double down on the post, you can play a sort of zone, as pretty much every team does, and have 3 guys zone up on the other 4 offensive player, so its way harder to get that open jumper. the offensive team has to have good spacing and good ball movement.

new zone rules have made it way easier to double on the post, but also made it easier, (or at least given defenses more options) to defend the pick and roll. (but obviously new hand checking rules have couteracted that, and probably had a bigger impact, and better 3pt shooting makes the pick and roll even easier).

[julizaver]

the way I see it, centers true value stems from their defensive efforts first and foremost. That's why I can safely claim that Olajuwon was a much better all-around player than Shaq. Same goes for Duncan too - his teams always overachieved despite not having adequate rosters to the likes of 3-peat Lakers for example. Having a great offensive center is very good, but a defensive anchor always triumphs over the offensive one. Just ask Bill Russell, who is a greatest winner of all time:cheers:

OK, I got your point although it is little bizarre for me. And I agree about Olajuwon being better all around player than Shaq, but as impact on the game (in their primes) both are somewhat equal for me. And in the GOAT list Shaq will be put ahead of Olajuwon for reasons which need a lot of time to write and explain my POV.

The teams draft players depending on their needs - that's why Blazers took Sam Bowie (I think) instead of Jordan ahead, because they already had Drexler. If you are coach of a team loaded with perimeter players who could shoot you would searching for Russell type of player and vice versa.

[Greg Oden 50]

what's your point?:confusedshrug:
I never questioned O'Neal's offensive prowess. And he still had plenty of playoff series and games when his direct opponents outplayed or at least matched his impact on the court. He was never elite or even good defensive anchor - that's just a fact

are u kidding me ,if u said DW is a great defender :roll:

[D.J.]

I was just throwing out names from that period, and yes they were scrubs.


You don't last 10-15 years in the league by being a scrub.

[Whoah10115]

this is the season that lebron wins :roll: :roll: :roll:


Wow, you really are useless.

[Dresta]

5 second backdown, flopping. Zone D. Hack-a-...

Nobody wants the rules to benefit bigs, but it'd be nice if it was equal. It's just not. Rebounds are still happening but 20 point bigs aren't. Shit remember 25 point bigs? 30 point bigs?

-Smak
Sorry, but there are no dominant bigs now because none of the ones currently playing are good enough, not because of the rules. Are you suggesting that there's a big now that could be a Hakeem, be a Shaq, be a young Duncan or David Robinson, if only the rules were different?

Keep going with your shit logic.

[bdreason]

Sorry, but there are no dominant bigs now because none of the ones currently playing are good enough, not because of the rules. Are you suggesting that there's a big now that could be a Hakeem, be a Shaq, be a young Duncan or David Robinson, if only the rules were different?

Keep going with your shit logic.


Are you claiming there aren't any bigs in the league that could post 20/10 if the teams strategy was to actually play through them?


It's not just about talent level, it's about how teams approach their offense given the current set of rules. There are at least a dozen PF/C's who could average 20/10 easily if their teams offensive strategy was to play inside-out. However, the current set of rules discourages post play, and heavily encourages perimeter play.


The idea that players like Aldridge, Duncan, Bosh, Cousins, Horford, Lee, Howard, Jefferson, Griffin, etc. simply aren't good enough to average 20/10 is laughable at best. The truth is, these guys don't average 20/10 because their offenses aren't designed for them to get 20/10. They don't get nearly enough touches on the post, and many of them spend their time on the perimeter, stretching the court for perimeter players to drive. The rules have changed the way the game is played, and teams offensive strategies have adjusted as well.

[tobethdope]

weak era

[Soundwave]

LOL, the only way a prime (or Orlando era Shaq) wouldn't average 30/12+ in today's era would be if he voluntarily passed up shots for a team concept or something.

There's no "modern rule" that would stop all these punk ass "modern big men" from getting their asses dunked on over and over and over again.

No Ewing, DRob, Duncan (is too old now), Hakeem, etc. to worry about? This is a weak era.

Brad Daughtery would be the best big in the NBA today no questions asked in his prime.

[Nash]

Better basketball now. You can't have big clumsy big men who can just bully themselves to points. Now you actually have to be skilful.

[Dresta]

Are you claiming there aren't any bigs in the league that could post 20/10 if the teams strategy was to actually play through them?


It's not just about talent level, it's about how teams approach their offense given the current set of rules. There are at least a dozen PF/C's who could average 20/10 easily if their teams offensive strategy was to play inside-out. However, the current set of rules discourages post play, and heavily encourages perimeter play.


The idea that players like Aldridge, Duncan, Bosh, Cousins, Horford, Lee, Howard, Jefferson, Griffin, etc. simply aren't good enough to average 20/10 is laughable at best. The truth is, these guys don't average 20/10 because their offenses aren't designed for them to get 20/10. They don't get nearly enough touches on the post, and many of them spend their time on the perimeter, stretching the court for perimeter players to drive. The rules have changed the way the game is played, and teams offensive strategies have adjusted as well.
Laughable at best? Aldridge scores over 20 points, he just doesn't get the boards because he plays to far from the basket and is not a brilliant rebounder. Jefferson is a borderline 20/10 player and would be so if he played more than 32 minutes, David Lee is just not good enough, Griffin averages 20/10 for his career, Duncan is to old to average 20/10 for a whole season, Bosh plays with Wade and Lebron and Howard plays with Kobe. None of these players should really be averaging 20/10 tbh.

And none of these guys are good enough to warrant the offense being built specifically around them. It has nothing to do with the rules, it is all the result of a dearth of talented big-men, just deal with it and quit whinging.

[Kurosawa0]

Here's the thing, the league is better for it. The future is players like LeBron, Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis. The hybrid 3 and 4s.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bu-bu-butt, we're seeing the GOAT ERA!!! :oldlol: Pathetic. This is the WORST basketball I've seen in 15 years (no denying a lot of it is because injuries).

[InfiniteBaskets]

The league has been more about perimeter oriented players for a while, but we still see a team led purely by a perimeter superstar failing in the playoffs. Physical teams like the Celtics used to lock up LeBron and Wade when they played on their individual teams.

A peak Kobe couldn't get it done himself until he got proper help from big men to play important roles on the defensive and rebounding end.

With the way the league has evolved, a center that can average 12+ rebounds and 5+ blocks, 15+ shots altered per game, give hard fouls, and move quickly on defense is more valuable than a purely offensive rebounding big that averages 20/10 on points and rebounds simply because it's easier to match the first big man with a perimeter star.

[pauk]

When David Lee, followed by even Lebron James (27 / 8) are the closest to that 20-10 or the 30-10 plateu... you know the great big guy is extinct....

[jlip]

It's not just a "league" or NBA problem, and is definitely not solely attributed to rule changes in the league. The dearth of dominant offensive big men is seen at every level of b-ball. AAU basketball is always promoting the flashy guard or perimeter player. Whose been the last dominant offensive big to come out of college? Duncan? Many factors have contributed to this phenomemon, from the "be like Mike" era of promotion to the influx of European bigs, just to name a couple.

[Whoah10115]

I don't think O'Neal's impact would be diminished. His stats might be...tho I guess with a guy like Shaq you could argue that the impact is in the stats...but I don't really see how he'd be less of a great player.

[ProfessorMurder]

With the way the league has evolved, a center that can average 12+ rebounds and 5+ blocks, 15+ shots altered per game, give hard fouls, and move quickly on defense is more valuable than a purely offensive rebounding big that averages 20/10 on points and rebounds simply because it's easier to match the first big man with a perimeter star.

Who averages 5 blocks? :oldlol: It's happened 1 time in the last 40 years.

[Whoah10115]

LOL, the only way a prime (or Orlando era Shaq) wouldn't average 30/12+ in today's era would be if he voluntarily passed up shots for a team concept or something.

There's no "modern rule" that would stop all these punk ass "modern big men" from getting their asses dunked on over and over and over again.

No Ewing, DRob, Duncan (is too old now), Hakeem, etc. to worry about? This is a weak era.

Brad Daughtery would be the best big in the NBA today no questions asked in his prime.


Yea ok...almost everything said here is wrong.



Laughable at best? Aldridge scores over 20 points, he just doesn't get the boards because he plays to far from the basket and is not a brilliant rebounder. Jefferson is a borderline 20/10 player and would be so if he played more than 32 minutes, David Lee is just not good enough, Griffin averages 20/10 for his career, Duncan is to old to average 20/10 for a whole season, Bosh plays with Wade and Lebron and Howard plays with Kobe. None of these players should really be averaging 20/10 tbh.

And none of these guys are good enough to warrant the offense being built specifically around them. It has nothing to do with the rules, it is all the result of a dearth of talented big-men, just deal with it and quit whinging.


Ehh.


Bu-bu-butt, we're seeing the GOAT ERA!!! :oldlol: Pathetic. This is the WORST basketball I've seen in 15 years (no denying a lot of it is because injuries).


You think that this basketball is worse than the ball played between 00-07? OK then.

[Gotterdammerung]

WEAK ERA.
:kobe:

[Dresta]

In the 90s we had an abundance if exceptional big-men, that is simply evening out over the long run, there will be another dominant one in the not too distant future. Oden was supposed to be the next, and was picked over Durant for that reason, but he has been a hopeless injury-case. It is a fallacy that big-men are extinct, it is just the ebb and flow of talent.

[ProfessorMurder]

In the 90s we had an abundance if exceptional big-men, that is simply evening out over the long run, there will be another dominant one in the not too distant future. Oden was supposed to be the next, and was picked over Durant for that reason, but he has been a hopeless injury-case. It is a fallacy that big-men are extinct, it is just the ebb and flow of talent.

I think a lot has to do with the fact that there are seemingly few good big man coaches. Most players have 0 post moves.

[I<3NBA]

I think a lot has to do with the fact that there are seemingly few good big man coaches. Most players have 0 post moves.
and who taught the big men of the early eras, back when basketball was starting?

[Greg Oden 50]

Better basketball now. You can't have big clumsy big men who can just bully themselves to points. Now you actually have to be skilful.

lol :roll:

[Greg Oden 50]

This is actually a Golden Era in the NBA, could perhaps be the best since the 80s. The game has just changed. Many players that have averaged these numbers are currently playing...just on loaded teams. Bosh, Blake, Howard. K Love basically out for the year.

There are a lot of good teams that have the talent to win it all, but that's on paper...injuries have hurt this year. It's not often you get so many star pairings.

:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You think that this basketball is worse than the ball played between 00-07? OK then.

A little hyperbole on my part. It's up there though. Right there w/ 1998 - 1999.

[bdreason]

Probably just a coincidence that as we exit the era of great bigmen, we enter an era where every other PG is all-star caliber. I'm sure the rule changes have nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

[DonDadda59]

Probably just a coincidence that as we exit the era of great bigmen, we enter an era where every other PG is all-star caliber. I'm sure the rule changes have nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

The rule changes were part of it, but let's be real here. There are no Hakeems, Shaqs, Ewings, etc in the league right now. The best center of this era is extremely limited offensively. There is a very clear lack of talent out there. It is indeed a weak era for big men.

Tim Duncan has been arguably the best big in the league... at age 36. That speaks volumes about the quality of Cs right now.

[jlip]

Probably just a coincidence that as we exit the era of great bigmen, we enter an era where every other PG is all-star caliber. I'm sure the rule changes have nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

What dominant big men are actually playing D-1 college ball? Were there any rule changes in the NCAA to change that?

[bdreason]

What dominant big men are actually playing D-1 college ball? Were there any rule changes in the NCAA to change that?


I didn't realize players came out of High School already dominant (minus LeBron hah). And yes, I would say the new 1-and-done rule has a negative effect on bigman development, especially considering the state of AAU ball (see NBA).


And maybe you missed Anthony Davis last year? A big who dominated College ball in route to a National Title. Why doesn't he dominate at the NBA level? Especially with the apparent lack of talent at the position?

[jlip]

I didn't realize players came out of High School already dominant (minus LeBron hah). And yes, I would say the new 1-and-done rule has a negative effect on bigman development, especially considering the state of AAU ball (see NBA).


And maybe you missed Anthony Davis last year? A big who dominated College ball in route to a National Title. Why doesn't he dominate at the NBA level? Especially with the apparent lack of talent at the position?

I already mentioned some of the things you stated here especially with AAU in a previous post.


It's not just a "league" or NBA problem, and is definitely not solely attributed to rule changes in the league. The dearth of dominant offensive big men is seen at every level of b-ball. AAU basketball is always promoting the flashy guard or perimeter player. Whose been the last dominant offensive big to come out of college? Duncan? Many factors have contributed to this phenomemon, from the "be like Mike" era of promotion to the influx of European bigs, just to name a couple.

As to the Anthony Davis example, I think that it's important to remember that this thread is about 20/10 big men, which would imply some sense of offensive dominance. Davis was not particularly a scorer in college, and his dominance was not predicated on his ability to be a 20ppg scorer. He was drafted on his defensive potential. Wasn't he the MOP of the NCAA championship game while shooting something like 1-11 or whatever? It seems as if most people were looking at him to be an eventual prime "Mutombo-esque" type player (i.e. 16ppg 13rpg, perennial DPOY candidate).

[Fudge]

Better basketball now. You can't have big clumsy big men who can just bully themselves to points. Now you actually have to be skilful.
:wtf:

[bdreason]

You can't average 20ppg if you don't get the shots. Out of the top 15 players in FGA's per game, only 2 are PF/C's (Love and Aldridge). In this modern league, you have a guy like Brandon Jennings, who shoots 39% from the field, taking more shots per game than Al Jefferson, who shoots 49% from the field. Are you trying to tell me Al Jefferson can't average 20ppg if given more touches?


I agree, the talent level of bigs today isn't on the same level as the previous generation... but the modern rules, and the offensive adjustments teams have made to those rules, has stripped the opportunity of bigs to offensively dominate games.

[BrickingStar]

Bu-bu-butt, we're seeing the GOAT ERA!!! :oldlol: Pathetic. This is the WORST basketball I've seen in 15 years (no denying a lot of it is because injuries).
I can't see how you got this from reading the OP. Then again most of your post paint you like a retard

[L.Kizzle]

You can't average 20ppg if you don't get the shots. Out of the top 15 players in FGA's per game, only 2 are PF/C's (Love and Aldridge). In this modern league, you have a guy like Brandon Jennings, who shoots 39% from the field, taking more shots per game than Al Jefferson, who shoots 49% from the field. Are you trying to tell me Al Jefferson can't average 20ppg if given more touches?


I agree, the talent level of bigs today isn't on the same level as the previous generation... but the modern rules, and the offensive adjustments teams have made to those rules, has stripped the opportunity of bigs to offensively dominate games.
Al has avg 20 before, he is not dominant.

Rules have not made the big men disappear, there own willingness to be guards did. The don't want to get big in the post because it's not sexy.

[bdreason]

Al Jefferson lives on the low box, and is as skilled as they come on the post. The only reason he doesn't get more touches on the post, is because the offense isn't designed for him to get more touches on the post, period.

I should also note that the the only two PF/C's in the top 15 in FGA's are primarily jump shooters... not because they choose to be, but because the offensive system is designed for them to play closer to the perimeter.

It's the same reason the NBA Champs play a jump shooting PF at the C spot, and a SF at the PF spot. This is how modern coaching has evolved to exploit the new rules. Stretch the court, and let the guards get the rim/FT line.

[Mrofir]

for people who are arguing that this can be explained by rule changes and not related to the current ability level of the bigs in the league.. this means that we have bigs currently playing who would be much more dominant 15 years ago. Who are they?

... which of the current crop of bigs would be able to dominate in the "old school"?

Is anyone willing to say brook lopez would be a 30-12 center 15 years ago?

Is anyone willing to name a single name that they think could honestly compete on the level with the likes of the dream, wilt, kaj, ewing, drob, etc etc

go ahead.

[Soundwave]

for people who are arguing that this can be explained by rule changes and not related to the current ability level of the bigs in the league.. this means that we have bigs currently playing who would be much more dominant 15 years ago. Who are they?

... which of the current crop of bigs would be able to dominate in the "old school"?

Is anyone willing to say brook lopez would be a 30-12 center 15 years ago?

Is anyone willing to name a single name that they think could honestly compete on the level with the likes of the dream, wilt, kaj, ewing, drob, etc etc

go ahead.

Modern bigs wouldn't be able to handle a young Chris Webber or Juwan Howard, let alone Ewing, DRob, etc.

[bdreason]

Current PF/C's who could average 20/10 a decade ago;


Aldridge, Lopez, Lee, Griffin, Duncan, Horford, Bosh, Nowitzki, Jefferson, Cousins, Hibbert, Randolph, Love, Howard, Boozer, Pekovic, Bynum, Monroe, Garnett, Gasol's, and Stoudemire.


Again, it has little to do with the level of talent, and more to do with the fact that teams simply don't play inside-out basketball anymore. I'm not saying any of these guys are prime Shaq or Hakeem, but given enough touches/shots, any of them are capable of 20/10.

[knightfall88]

Back towards the basket = full body contact

front towards basket = no contact

never understood why it is this way but that is why there are no dominant bigs

[chips93]

Al Jefferson lives on the low box, and is as skilled as they come on the post. The only reason he doesn't get more touches on the post, is because the offense isn't designed for him to get more touches on the post, period.

if he really was such an effective scorer down low, wouldnt they change their offense, and run more of it through him on the low block?

:confusedshrug:

[Dresta]

He isn't actually that good. Minnesota ran their offense through Jefferson, and they were terrible. That's why he doesn't get the touches - it would hurt the team.

[Nash]

lol :roll:
The game has become better, you can't just be big and bully yourself to points without even having proper basketball skills. Being big is not enough, you need to be skilled as well and the game today is very skill oriented. The times when having big 7 foot fatsos is over.

[Overdrive]

The game has become better, you can't just be big and bully yourself to points without even having proper basketball skills. Being big is not enough, you need to be skilled as well and the game today is very skill oriented. The times when having big 7 foot fatsos is over.

Being 7 foot and fat was never enough to get 20/10.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Current PF/C's who could average 20/10 a decade ago;


Aldridge, Lopez, Lee, Griffin, Duncan, Horford, Bosh, Nowitzki, Jefferson, Cousins, Hibbert, Randolph, Love, Howard, Boozer, Pekovic, Bynum, Monroe, Garnett, Gasol's, and Stoudemire.


Again, it has little to do with the level of talent, and more to do with the fact that teams simply don't play inside-out basketball anymore. I'm not saying any of these guys are prime Shaq or Hakeem, but given enough touches/shots, any of them are capable of 20/10.

How is going back in time helping half of this list to get rebounds?

You basically saying if you throw the ball to these guys more often than not they will get 20/10...but what kind of offense is that? Teams will take that all day long.

Some are close to averaging 20/10 already...Lopez,Lee,Love, Duncan,Randolph etc...

-Lopez is playing about 30 minutes a game and is the most effective offense of the Nets...you can blame Joe Johnson and Deron for him not being up there.

-Under normal circumstances Love will average 20/10 in his sleep.

-Duncan is 38 and plays 30 minutes a game in a very functional pass first offense, he would not be averaging 20/10. In fact he'd be averaging less, he's a match up problem for half the league and that wouldn't be the case that long ago.

-Randolph averaged 20/10 his entire career. The Grizzlies play through him....they also play through Gasol. He has to share rebounds and touches with Gasol.


Some are just laughable, Pau? Dirk? Amare?

- What prevents Dirk and Amare from getting 20/10 injuries? the past few years someone been holding a gun to their head telling them not to get 10 rebounds?

- Pau never averaged that, for a reason. As good a offensive player he is he has a multitude of skills and uses all of them...and watching him right now I don't think he's good enough. I think same with Monroe.

I'm going to ignore Bynum...he's not even playing.

Bosh, he averages 6 rebounds a game on a team that needs rebounding, unfortunately for him he's a third option playing away from the rim on offense. He's not going to avreage 20/10 anywhere in that situation.

There was a time when Boozer could get it, he's not longer that player.

It would be a offensive tragedy if Roy Hibbert was getting enough touches to average 20 points.

Pekovic does very well, if they play through him he might be able to get it but at the same time there's no real reason to run the offense out of the post when you have a great point guard....and not so great shooters.

Al used to get it in Minesota, they used to play .300 ball too. Howard could get it on the right team and

Cousin's IS ACTUALLY GETTING IT :roll:

[Dasher]

The lack of 20/10 bigs can be partially explained by coaching rotations. Only 3 bigs have played more than 36 minutes per game this year. Those 3 are: Joakim Noah, Al Horford, and Andy V.

[Mrofir]

How is going back in time helping half of this list to get rebounds?

You basically saying if you throw the ball to these guys more often than not they will get 20/10...but what kind of offense is that? Teams will take that all day long.

Some are close to averaging 20/10 already...Lopez,Lee,Love, Duncan,Randolph etc...

-Lopez is playing about 30 minutes a game and is the most effective offense of the Nets...you can blame Joe Johnson and Deron for him not being up there.

-Under normal circumstances Love will average 20/10 in his sleep.

-Duncan is 38 and plays 30 minutes a game in a very functional pass first offense, he would not be averaging 20/10. In fact he'd be averaging less, he's a match up problem for half the league and that wouldn't be the case that long ago.

-Randolph averaged 20/10 his entire career. The Grizzlies play through him....they also play through Gasol. He has to share rebounds and touches with Gasol.


Some are just laughable, Pau? Dirk? Amare?

- What prevents Dirk and Amare from getting 20/10 injuries? the past few years someone been holding a gun to their head telling them not to get 10 rebounds?

- Pau never averaged that, for a reason. As good a offensive player he is he has a multitude of skills and uses all of them...and watching him right now I don't think he's good enough. I think same with Monroe.

I'm going to ignore Bynum...he's not even playing.

Bosh, he averages 6 rebounds a game on a team that needs rebounding, unfortunately for him he's a third option playing away from the rim on offense. He's not going to avreage 20/10 anywhere in that situation.

There was a time when Boozer could get it, he's not longer that player.

It would be a offensive tragedy if Roy Hibbert was getting enough touches to average 20 points.

Pekovic does very well, if they play through him he might be able to get it but at the same time there's no real reason to run the offense out of the post when you have a great point guard....and not so great shooters.

Al used to get it in Minesota, they used to play .300 ball too. Howard could get it on the right team and

Cousin's IS ACTUALLY GETTING IT :roll:

Thanks for reading my mind and posting for me. Dont know how you did that.

Main idea of the thread is we are looking at a phase in the nba where there are no dominant big men. Rule changes probably don't help, but you're crazy if you don't think prime shaq could still average 30-12 in today's league. Maybe some of those guys could average 20-10 if their teams sucked enough to go inside to them often enough. I could probably average 10pts a game on 16% FG if I was constantly fed the ball.

[D.J.]

The times when having big 7 foot fatsos is over.


I guess Oliver Miller and Priest Lauderdale didn't get the memo.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The game has become better, you can't just be big and bully yourself to points without even having proper basketball skills. Being big is not enough, you need to be skilled as well and the game today is very skill oriented. The times when having big 7 foot fatsos is over.

Name at least 5 "fatsos" that didn't have skill then. I'll wait.

[Legends66NBA7]

The game has become better, you can't just be big and bully yourself to points without even having proper basketball skills.

And who exactly does this apply to ?

Hakeem ? Shaq ? Ewing ? Robinson ? Mourning ?... What do you mean by "proper basketball skills" ?


Being big is not enough, you need to be skilled as well and the game today is very skill oriented. The times when having big 7 foot fatsos is over.

Who are these "fatsos" ? If the game is "very skill oriented", how come many big men go to Hakeem Olajuwon to work on their post game ? Which included the best center in the league in Dwight Howard ?

The big's from the past were incredibly skilled, I have no clue what your talking about.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And who exactly does this apply to ?

Hakeem ? Shaq ? Ewing ? Robinson ? Mourning ?... What do you mean by "proper basketball skills" ?



Who are these "fatsos" ? If the game is "very skill oriented", how come many big men go to Hakeem Olajuwon to work on their post game ? Which included the best center in the league in Dwight Howard ?

The big's from the past were incredibly skilled, I have no clue what your talking about.

I don't think HE has a clue what he's talking about either. :oldlol: Good post dude.

[Legends66NBA7]

Name at least 5 "fatsos" that didn't have skill then. I'll wait.

The only "fatso" I can think of from the past era is Charles Barkley, but no way in hell is he not skilled.

[taucesays]

Kids don't learn post skills anymore. It's no fun to bang down there and you don't get the glory. That's why you end up with Lamar Odoms. Everyone wanna be like Mike.

[D.J.]

Kids don't learn post skills anymore. It's no fun to bang down there and you don't get the glory. That's why you end up with Lamar Odoms. Everyone wanna be like Mike.


In Odom's defense, he has the skills. Not many 6'10" guys can shoot, handle the ball, and rebound.

[La Frescobaldi]

I'll follow along with the Ish crowd......... It's simple evolution. Guys are getting smaller and weaker.

*************************************

I think coaches are just responding to the fact that it's a SF league more than a C league right now. There's a lot of 2-3 lineups being deployed - by that I mean 2 guards and 3 forwards. Even the guys that are listed as Cs are really playing a lot in a 2-3 offense. It's just the flavor of the day, like the Wishbone T or the Wildcat in football... that's all.

Like the triangle. Everybody credits P Jax with that offense, more serious fans know it was Tex Winter who invented it......... very few know that the Sixers used it to win a ring in '67, or that it was used a lot in the 70s. It just went out of style, see? And so when Phil dusted off the old playbooks, it took the league by storm - because after all, it is one of the great offenses ever devised.

Most of it is driven by the fact, you only get 2 or 3 true 7 footers a generation that are able to play at the highest NBA levels..... and the best of them that this generation has produced have been ruined by injuries.

[bdreason]

if he really was such an effective scorer down low, wouldnt they change their offense, and run more of it through him on the low block?

:confusedshrug:


I've already explained this. In fact, it's the main factor in my entire argument.


The difference with todays defensive rules, is that it's easier to both double the post, and recover from the double. If you watch a Jazz game, they often start the game by posting Al Jeff numerous times. If he's on his game, the defense starts to double, while zoning up the other 4 players. Once the defense decides to start denying the post, it becomes far less efficient to run the offense inside-out, especially considering how impossible it is to defend the perimeter.

In other words, once a defense decides to shut down the post, it becomes more efficient for teams to attack from the perimeter. Before zone defense was allowed, teams would pound the post all game long, creating both more shots, and more offensive rebounding opportunities for post players.

[bdreason]

I'll follow along with the Ish crowd......... It's simple evolution. Guys are getting smaller and weaker.

*************************************

I think coaches are just responding to the fact that it's a SF league more than a C league right now. There's a lot of 2-3 lineups being deployed - by that I mean 2 guards and 3 forwards. Even the guys that are listed as Cs are really playing a lot in a 2-3 offense. It's just the flavor of the day, like the Wishbone T or the Wildcat in football... that's all.

Like the triangle. Everybody credits P Jax with that offense, more serious fans know it was Tex Winter who invented it......... very few know that the Sixers used it to win a ring in '67, or that it was used a lot in the 70s. It just went out of style, see? And so when Phil dusted off the old playbooks, it took the league by storm - because after all, it is one of the great offenses ever devised.

Most of it is driven by the fact, you only get 2 or 3 true 7 footers a generation that are able to play at the highest NBA levels..... and the best of them that this generation has produced have been ruined by injuries.



While I agree with pretty much everything you said, I don't believe teams playing 2-3 offense is just the "flavor of the day". Teams are playing from the outside-in, because the rules encourage attacking from the perimeter, as opposed to playing inside-out basketball.

[Rubio2Gasol]

In Odom's defense, he has the skills. Not many 6'10" guys can shoot, handle the ball, and rebound.

He also had a pretty good low post game :lol

[dannywpt]

Kevin Love would put up 20/10 if he played through injury with one hand this season. In his sleep.

[La Frescobaldi]

While I agree with pretty much everything you said, I don't believe teams playing 2-3 offense is just the "flavor of the day". Teams are playing from the outside-in, because the rules encourage attacking from the perimeter, as opposed to playing inside-out basketball.

Actually I think we agree even more, reading your other fine post:


The difference with todays defensive rules, is that it's easier to both double the post, and recover from the double. If you watch a Jazz game, they often start the game by posting Al Jeff numerous times. If he's on his game, the defense starts to double, while zoning up the other 4 players. Once the defense decides to start denying the post, it becomes far less efficient to run the offense inside-out, especially considering how impossible it is to defend the perimeter.

This is exactly the model that Coach Adelman uses with the T-Wolves.

Pekovic has proven himself to be completely unstoppable in the post game, and precisely what you described happens game after game.... The D collapses, Pekovic starts getting double and triple teams.... the center post game works to perfection.. and the Wolves clank brick after brick from WIDE OPEN FREAKING 3 line.
The Wolves have been so incredibly consistent from 3, I bet they have had to install at least 10 rims around the league this season all bent out of shape.

[Whoah10115]

Actually I think we agree even more, reading your other fine post:



This is exactly the model that Coach Adelman uses with the T-Wolves.

Pekovic has proven himself to be completely unstoppable in the post game, and precisely what you described happens game after game.... The D collapses, Pekovic starts getting double and triple teams.... the center post game works to perfection.. and the Wolves clank brick after brick from WIDE OPEN FREAKING 3 line.
The Wolves have been so incredibly consistent from 3, I bet they have had to install at least 10 rims around the league this season all bent out of shape.



:roll:

[La Frescobaldi]

:roll:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/recap/NBA_20130403_MIN@MIL

"Pekovic continued a run of strong games after he had 22 points and 15 rebounds in a win over Oklahoma City on Friday and scored 29 at home Monday to help beat Boston. He was 11 of 14 from the field with eight rebounds against the Bucks."
Edit ~ #14 erupted for 27 & 8 on the Bucks fine center Larry Sanders.
This is what happens when he gets a little rain outside - the big Montenegrin just takes over.
Say what you want about cousins in our running debate, my friend, he's flat not the same caliber player as Nikola. It's not that close either.

[andremiller07]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/recap/NBA_20130403_MIN@MIL


Say what you want about cousins in our running debate, my friend, he's flat not the same caliber player as Nikola. It's not that close either.

Dude seriously, the difference in skill between the two is massive and one has 3-5 very good passers feeding him including one elite one and plays for a proper coach with a proper offense while the other has none of that.

Please show me when Pek can run a fast break or create a shot for himself from anywhere on the floor, and make some of the sweet passes DMC makes. He simply can't and never will be able to he just lacks the talent of Cousins.

You bring up Peks amazing play recently against the Bucks he needed 36 mins to score 27 , Cousins needed 28 mins to score 24 against them, against Boston he had 29 (without KG) in 41 mins, Cousins against the Suns who had similar level big man without Gortat had 34 points in 30 mins.

Makes a big difference playing with pass first players as a bigman who have high IQ rather than the complete opposite.

[La Frescobaldi]

Dude seriously, the difference in skill between the two is massive and one has 3-5 very good passers feeding him including one elite one and plays for a proper coach with a proper offense while the other has none of that.

Please show me when Pek can run a fast break or create a shot for himself from anywhere on the floor, and make some of the sweet passes DMC makes. He simply can't and never will be able to he just lacks the talent of Cousins.

You bring up Peks amazing play recently against the Bucks he needed 36 mins to score 27 , Cousins needed 28 mins to score 24 against them, against Boston he had 29 (without KG) in 41 mins, Cousins against the Suns who had similar level big man without Gortat had 34 points in 30 mins.

Makes a big difference playing with pass first players as a bigman who have high IQ rather than the complete opposite.
It's fine man, we can just disagree.

[Whoah10115]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/recap/NBA_20130403_MIN@MIL

"Pekovic continued a run of strong games after he had 22 points and 15 rebounds in a win over Oklahoma City on Friday and scored 29 at home Monday to help beat Boston. He was 11 of 14 from the field with eight rebounds against the Bucks."
Edit ~ #14 erupted for 27 & 8 on the Bucks fine center Larry Sanders.
This is what happens when he gets a little rain outside - the big Montenegrin just takes over.
Say what you want about cousins in our running debate, my friend, he's flat not the same caliber player as Nikola. It's not that close either.

Well, I was laughing at the Timberwolves clanking open shots. It's sad but true.


Nikola is better but Cousins is one of the most talented players in the entire NBA.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Big men have disappeared, kids nowadays only love to play guards.