why Kobe and Shaq are the greatest duo of all time

[kennethgriffin]

kareem went to 1 finals and won 1 ring without magic

magic went to 1 final and never won without kareem
--------------------------------------------

jordan went to 0 finals without pippen and never won without pippen

pippen went to 0 finals without jordan and never won without jordan
--------------------------------------------

kobe went to 3 finals and won 2 rings without shaq

shaq went to 2 finals and won 1 ring without kobe
---------------------------------------------------------------



its obvious kobe and shaq didn't need each other as much as those other guys needed each other

[1987_Lakers]

:facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

:facepalm

:facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

The Iverson and Chris Webber tandem did work

[k0kakw0rld]

kareem went to 1 finals and won 1 ring without magic

magic went to 1 final and never won without kareem
--------------------------------------------

jordan went to 0 finals without pippen and never won without pippen

pippen went to 0 finals without jordan and never won without jordan
--------------------------------------------

kobe went to 3 finals and won 2 rings without shaq

shaq went to 2 finals and won 1 ring without kobe
---------------------------------------------------------------



its obvious kobe and shaq didn't need each other as much as those other guys needed each other
Perfect timing to listen to Jay-z ''What More Can I Say''
OP is right.\

[kennethgriffin]

this is why people should be saying "jordan needed pippen to win"

kobe never "needed" anyone

he got it done with an above average big man that didnt play defense or rebound all that well


jordan had a supreme play making all around defensive legend that could post up, dunk on people and hit threes, then defend 4 positions

pippen is a legend

kobe won without a hof'r TWICE

[Myth]

kobe won without a hof'r TWICE

Pau will be in the HOF.

How is Kobe doing with Dwight and Nash?

[EnoughSaid]

MJ/Pippen >>>

[kennethgriffin]

Pau will be in the HOF.


2 third team all nba's
4 allstar reserve spots
currently his teams 7th best player ( behind kobe, nash, howard, metta, clark, jamison )



hall of fame?

:biggums:


and dont bring up "spain silver medal!"

LOL

[Myth]

I wonder how great Jordan and Pippen would have been had they added Payton and Malone to their team.

[bdreason]

They could have been the greatest duo of all-time, but Kobe ran Shaq out of town before he hit his prime.

[Leviathon1121]

My girlfriend is making brownies, I wanted her to add butterscotch chips to them, but she said no. :(

[red1]

My girlfriend is making brownies, I wanted her to add butterscotch chips to them, but she said no. :(
what a ****

[SilkkTheShocker]

My girlfriend is making brownies, I wanted her to add butterscotch chips to them, but she said no. :(

Is she at least putting powdered sugar on them?

[kennethgriffin]

I wonder how great Jordan and Pippen would have been had they added Payton and Malone to their team.


you mean a 38 year old slow almost retired payton instead of paxson/kerr elite 3 point specialists and ron harper

and

a 40 year old slow almost retired malone that was injured in the finals instead of elite defensive rebounding allstar horace grant......and legendary defensive rebounding dennis rodman



and devean george, slava medvedenko instead of tony kukoc?

:lol


stfu

[DatAsh]

Shaq played 13 years without Kobe, 15 without Kobe as a starter.
Kobe played 9 years without Shaq, including his peak
Magic played 3 years without Kareem, including his return in 96'
Jordan played 3 years without Pippen, all 3 before his prime.

Not really a fair comparison.

[Leviathon1121]

Go back to the ESPN boards, we are discussing brownies here.

[kennethgriffin]

They could have been the greatest duo of all-time, but Kobe ran Shaq out of town before he hit his prime.


he had too.. shaq was finished by 2007 and would have had a 50 million dollar yearly contract by then lol

[arifgokcen]

Dude this has exceeded every other troll attempt you have made to this day

wow i would have never though such a logic

woooooooowwwwwwwwwwww

[Cali Syndicate]

They were definitely among the most dynamic duo ever.

But...

Kobe spent a healthy portion of his prime without Shaq. 08-10 had one of the best front courts in the league. In 2011 bynum was a top big man in the league. In 09-10 he was the Lakers backup center. Even if he was only getting 15-20 is besides the point because the fact he was only getting limited minutes shows the depth of that rotation.

Shaq spent the backside of his prime without Kobe and spent it with a uprising superstar.

Unless you don't think this matters

[Myth]

2 third team all nba's
4 allstar reserve spots
currently his teams 7th best player ( behind kobe, nash, howard, metta, clark, jamison )



hall of fame?

:biggums:


and dont bring up "spain silver medal!"

LOL

He won't be first ballot, but 2 championships as a 2nd option on 18/9/3 career avgs. Also, it is funny that you mention his 2 third all-nba selections as if that was as high as he got, when he got a 2nd team selection as well (your agenda is obvious when you withhold accomplishments). He also won a ROY, and yes, his international influence will be considered as well.

[kennethgriffin]

He won't be first ballot, but 2 championships as a 2nd option on 18/9/3 career avgs. Also, it is funny that you mention his 2 third all-nba selections as if that was as high as he got, when he got a 2nd team selection as well (your agenda is obvious when you withhold accomplishments). He also won a ROY, and yes, his international influence will be considered as well.


he played like a boarderline hall of famer for 2-3 years

it takes more than that

you gotta dominate for a decade

[Djahjaga]

kareem went to 1 finals and won 1 ring without magic

magic went to 1 final and never won without kareem
--------------------------------------------

jordan went to 0 finals without pippen and never won without pippen

pippen went to 0 finals without jordan and never won without jordan
--------------------------------------------

kobe went to 3 finals and won 2 rings without shaq

shaq went to 2 finals and won 1 ring without kobe
---------------------------------------------------------------


its obvious kobe and shaq didn't need each other as much as those other guys needed each other

Stuff like this never made any sense to me. Correlation doesn't imply causation. It's not like the Bulls were ever in a position to succeed before Scottie was drafted. They were a young team, with coaches coming in and out. By the time Scottie joined the team, Jordan had gotten better, Collins was beginning his second year with the team; they were just in a better place.

From then on, Jordan played his entire career with Scottie, the Wizards years notwithstanding. If Scottie WAS on those Washington teams, do they make the Finals? Of course not. So it does nothing to say Jordan failed to make it without him. He simply wasn't in a position where he could do much of anything to get that team to a Finals series.

Arguments like this, and the classic "Jordan never won without Scottie," are just stupid. Just because things lined up doesn't mean they were the cause of one another.

The Magic/Kareem thing you pointed out doesn't mean jack sh*t for Magic's side, either. Magic played his entire career with Kareem except for like 2 years (again, comeback year notwithstanding. The Lakers weren't in a position to contend in 96). Magic makes the Finals 50% of the time without Kareem when his teams are in a position to succeed, and you somehow hold that against him?

I won't comment on Kareem because I honestly don't know much about his career pre-Lakers.

Meanwhile, Kobe and Shaq both had ample opportunities after parting with one another to contend, way more than Jordan and Pippen did.

After 2004, the Lakers had the teams to contend in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. Kobe made the Finals three of those years, got swept in the second round in one, lost in the second in 5 games in the next one, and looks like he won't make it out of the first this year (won't make the Finals, anyway).

Shaq was in a position to contend in 2005, 2006, 2007, and maybe 2010 with the Cavs. He made the Finals once, came close in 2005, but dropped the ball in 2007 (granted, injuries and all that) and by 2010 he really just didn't have enough impact on a team.

Scottie had a good chance that first year in Portland, and he lost to the Lakers. The next three years, I don't think anyone had them confused for a championship caliber team. Maybe that second year, but it's a stretch.

So, while I don't necessarily disagree with the contention that Shaq and Kobe are the best duo, this is, by far, the dumbest way of quantifying that. I'm in awe at how utterly retarded and devoid of logic this is. It's incredible how feeble-minded you can be at times.

[Myth]

Shaq played 13 years without Kobe, 15 without Kobe as a starter.
Kobe played 9 years without Shaq, including his peak
Magic played 3 years without Kareem, including his return in 96'
Jordan played 3 years without Pippen, all 3 before his prime.

Not really a fair comparison.

Yep.

[kennethgriffin]

Yep.

nope

[General]

You're right. :rockon: The usual suspects here hating on Kobe though. Kobe won 2 championships without a top 5 player in the league.

[MisterAmazing]

THIS is why kobe and shaq are the greatest duo of all time?

please please please ban this guy :facepalm :facepalm

[Myth]

nope

Why don't you rebuttle the actual quote I was saying "yep" to? :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

:facepalm

I agree with your statement, but your reasoning is extremely flawed. You do realize that when Magic won his last title in '88, Kareem was basically an average player at that point.

[Myth]

You're right. :rockon: The usual suspects here hating on Kobe though. Kobe won 2 championships without a top 5 player in the league.

The reason people are disagreeing is because the OP came up with a stupid argument. An argument can be made that Shaq and Kobe are the best duo ever, but this is not it. This is a hidden way of trying to pump up Kobe's reputation, when really, any real argument for them being so good should start with Shaq, not with Kobe.

[kennethgriffin]

THIS is why kobe and shaq are the greatest duo of all time?

please please please ban this guy :facepalm :facepalm


you beg for this every time i post?

you mad brah? :lol


jordan needed pippen. without him he has 0 rings

kobe didnt need anyone

proven fact


kobe with an above average kick stand... wins back 2 back titles

[Myth]

kobe didnt need anyone

proven fact


I don't seem to recall him winning without a team. I also recall him getting bailed out by teammates in the Finals.

Anyway:
1. Jordan
2. Shaq (prime)
3a. Magic
3b. Kareem (early 80s)
5. Kobe
6. Pippen
It all kind of equals out.

[Myth]

Also, this is "greatest duo," not "best individuals that at some point were paired up," so all that really matters is Jordan/Pippen's 6 > Kareem/Magic's 5 > Kobe/Shaq's 3. When looking at duos, all that matters is what they did together, not what they did apart.

Otherwise you could make the (ridiculous) argument that Kobe and Rodman were a better duo because Kobe has 5 rings without Rodman while Rodman has 5 rings without Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

As far as the duos at their peak, Shaq/Kobe was the best, imo. The inside/outside combination and the fact that Shaq was the best player in the league while Kobe was arguably the 2nd best, and at worst 3rd best in '01 and '02, imo. Those 2 seasons are probably the best case you can make for a team having the 2 best players in the league at the same time.


I wonder how great Jordan and Pippen would have been had they added Payton and Malone to their team.

If Malone missed half the season and pretty much couldn't play in the finals, and Payton was on the downside of his career averaging 8 ppg on 37% and 4 ppg in the finals while Billups torched him for 21 ppg?

[Greg Oden 50]

this is why people should be saying "jordan needed pippen to win"

kobe never "needed" anyone

he got it done with an above average big man that didnt play defense or rebound all that well


jordan had a supreme play making all around defensive legend that could post up, dunk on people and hit threes, then defend 4 positions

pippen is a legend

kobe won without a hof'r TWICE

kobe won nothing without fisher :roll:

[fsvr54]

How has no one mentioned that Kareem went to TWO finals without Magic, not one. He was one win away from a 2nd ring in 1974.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How has no one mentioned that Kareem went to TWO finals without Magic, not one. He was one win away from a 2nd ring in 1974.

Yeah, and it went 7 because Kareem hit one of the clutchest shots of all-time. Kareem had to carry that Buck team a lot as well since Lucius Allen(18/4/5 player) was out for the playoffs and Oscar was in his last season.

[AirFederer]

OP is The Stephen Hawkings of ISH


Without his brains

[longtime lurker]

OP has a point Shaq and Kobe have to be considered one of the NBA's greatest duos. The only other two that can challenge them would be Kareem and Magic. Interesting though that Kobe said Jordan and Pippen were the best though.

[guy]

Stuff like this never made any sense to me. Correlation doesn't imply causation. It's not like the Bulls were ever in a position to succeed before Scottie was drafted. They were a young team, with coaches coming in and out. By the time Scottie joined the team, Jordan had gotten better, Collins was beginning his second year with the team; they were just in a better place.

From then on, Jordan played his entire career with Scottie, the Wizards years notwithstanding. If Scottie WAS on those Washington teams, do they make the Finals? Of course not. So it does nothing to say Jordan failed to make it without him. He simply wasn't in a position where he could do much of anything to get that team to a Finals series.

Arguments like this, and the classic "Jordan never won without Scottie," are just stupid. Just because things lined up doesn't mean they were the cause of one another.

The Magic/Kareem thing you pointed out doesn't mean jack sh*t for Magic's side, either. Magic played his entire career with Kareem except for like 2 years (again, comeback year notwithstanding. The Lakers weren't in a position to contend in 96). Magic makes the Finals 50% of the time without Kareem when his teams are in a position to succeed, and you somehow hold that against him?

I won't comment on Kareem because I honestly don't know much about his career pre-Lakers.

Meanwhile, Kobe and Shaq both had ample opportunities after parting with one another to contend, way more than Jordan and Pippen did.

After 2004, the Lakers had the teams to contend in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. Kobe made the Finals three of those years, got swept in the second round in one, lost in the second in 5 games in the next one, and looks like he won't make it out of the first this year (won't make the Finals, anyway).

Shaq was in a position to contend in 2005, 2006, 2007, and maybe 2010 with the Cavs. He made the Finals once, came close in 2005, but dropped the ball in 2007 (granted, injuries and all that) and by 2010 he really just didn't have enough impact on a team.

Scottie had a good chance that first year in Portland, and he lost to the Lakers. The next three years, I don't think anyone had them confused for a championship caliber team. Maybe that second year, but it's a stretch.

So, while I don't necessarily disagree with the contention that Shaq and Kobe are the best duo, this is, by far, the dumbest way of quantifying that. I'm in awe at how utterly retarded and devoid of logic this is. It's incredible how feeble-minded you can be at times.

I've been saying this forever. The Jordan not winning without Pippen argument might literally be the dumbest one here.

[Legends66NBA7]

I've been saying this forever. The Jordan not winning without Pippen argument might literally be the dumbest one here.

Not far away from "___ didn't win rings because he ran into Michael Jordan and the Bulls in the 90's".

[kennethgriffin]

I've been saying this forever. The Jordan not winning without Pippen argument might literally be the dumbest one here.


pippens a legend, can defend 4 positions, top 5 all around 2 way player ever

jordan doesnt have a winning season without him... let alone a finals or ring

[MetsPackers]

Wow rock solid logic in the OP. Not like who your teammates are has anything to do with winning championships...

Shyt like this is why ISH has completely gone to hell over the last few months

[esiotrot]

deer kennygriffith

pls kall me,

love
tortoise

<3

[tomkiddo91]

How is this guy not banned...

He's basically the same amount of idiot as ripthekik...

[bluechox2]

this logic makes wade better than lebron

[kennethgriffin]

Wow rock solid logic in the OP. Not like who your teammates are has anything to do with winning championships...

Shyt like this is why ISH has completely gone to hell over the last few months


the bulls and 80's lakers were 10 times deaper after mj/pip and magic/kareem compared to kobe/shaq lakers

kobe and shaq carried ymca bums to 3 straight titles

armstrong/grant/rodman/kukoc/harper/paxson/kerr

nixon/worthy/cooper/wilkes/scott/mcadoo

vs

george/walker/fisher/horry/medvidenko/fox? LOL

[bdreason]

Kobe is to blame for that '04 loss. Guy shot 38% (17% from 3) and still took 30 more shots than Shaq, who shot 63% from the field. Malone and Payton played like trash too, but let's not forget that Payton won a ring TWO years later averaging 30mpg for the Miami Heat... with Wade and old-man Shaq.


Kobe's ego cost the Lakers the '04 finals, and a shot at a dynasty along side Shaq.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe is to blame for that '04 loss. Guy shot 38% (17% from 3) and still took 30 more shots than Shaq, who shot 63% from the field. Malone and Payton played like trash too, but let's not forget that Payton won a ring TWO years later averaging 30mpg for the Miami Heat... with Wade and old-man Shaq.


Kobe's ego cost the Lakers the '04 finals, and a shot at a dynasty along side Shaq.


the loss to the pistons openned the doors for kobe to have a legendary career without shaq


just from 2006-2012 kobe has a top 10 all time career

they had to split up for kobe to get the credit he deserved... if they never did kobe would always have been in shaqs shadow..

them breaking up proved that theyre the best duo all time. cause both got it done without each other.

[esiotrot]

the loss to the pistons openned the doors for kobe to have a legendary career without shaq


just from 2006-2012 kobe has a top 10 all time career

they had to split up for kobe to get the credit he deserved... if they never did kobe would always have been in shaqs shadow..

them breaking up proved that theyre the best duo all time. cause both got it done without each other.

If Lebron wins a championship this year, he'll be top ten then.

[longtime lurker]

Kobe is to blame for that '04 loss. Guy shot 38% (17% from 3) and still took 30 more shots than Shaq, who shot 63% from the field. Malone and Payton played like trash too, but let's not forget that Payton won a ring TWO years later averaging 30mpg for the Miami Heat... with Wade and old-man Shaq.


Kobe's ego cost the Lakers the '04 finals, and a shot at a dynasty along side Shaq.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

[kennethgriffin]

If Lebron wins a championship this year, he'll be top ten then.


probly


all i know is ... kobe without shaq has accomplished more overall than hakeem olajuwon did in his entire career. and that guys top 10 all time


which is why its laughable when people say kobe isnt top 10... his time with shaq added to his time without him should push him up to around top 5-6

[DatAsh]

OP has a point Shaq and Kobe have to be considered one of the NBA's greatest duos. The only other two that can challenge them would be Kareem and Magic. Interesting though that Kobe said Jordan and Pippen were the best though.

His conclusion may be valid, but his reasoning is flawed.

[tazb]

LeBron & Wade in a few years.

[kennethgriffin]

LeBron & Wade in a few years.

wade will be retired in a few years

[guy]

Not far away from "___ didn't win rings because he ran into Michael Jordan and the Bulls in the 90's".

Thats a bad argument too, but not nearly as bad. Its an overexaggeration, but what most people know is that the argument is mostly referring to the best chances for those players because its not realistic to expect them to strongly contend for every season of their career. I would say they should expand that to Jordan AND Hakeem. Barkley, Ewing, Malone and Stockton all lost to him as well when they were contenders.

[diamenz]

op - your rationale is pretty simple criteria for the best duo of all time. next time you try to make an argument like that try a bit harder. (no offense, nor am i patronizing you.)

and your flaw in saying jordan needed pippen (in which he did), you also need to mention jordan defied conventional wisdom and won all of his 6/6 finals WITHOUT an offensively dominant big man.

[kennethgriffin]

op - your rationale is pretty simple criteria for the best duo of all time. next time you try to make an argument like that try a bit harder. (no offense)

and your flaw in saying jordan needed pippen (in which he did), you also need to mention jordan defied conventional wisdom and won all of his 6/6 finals WITHOUT an offensively dominant big man.

he had pippen who was a dominant post up player

and he had rodman/grant who were great post defenders/rebounders

rodman locked up shaq

and the bulls were built on defense. they were like the bulls of now.


thats another way to get it done.

[diamenz]

he had pippen who was a dominant post up player

and he had rodman/grant who were great post defenders/rebounders

rodman locked up shaq

and the bulls were built on defense. they were like the bulls of now.


thats another way to get it done.

scottie was NOT a dominant post up player. you must not have digested old school basketball well, so where are you getting this information? sorry, but you lost a lot of credibility there.

that still does not change the fact that mj did it without an offensively dominant big man. why haven't you responded to the long winded post by Djahjaga?

hey, you're entitled to your opinion and i respect that; but when you make an argument you need to make it a good one instead of just looking at it from a linear perspective as you did in your OP.

[Myth]

all i know is ... kobe without shaq has accomplished more overall than hakeem olajuwon did in his entire career. and that guys top 10 all time


:roll:

[Djahjaga]

The funny thing is Griff used to be a serious poster who just had retarded things to say and then he realized that no one took him seriously anyway. So, to save face he started trolling hard and now people actually think he's always been a troll.

Nothing more loserish than having to become a troll to keep from crying yourself to sleep at night.

:roll:

What's up, Griff? You sad? :lol

[DatAsh]

all i know is ... kobe without shaq has accomplished more overall than hakeem olajuwon did in his entire career. and that guys top 10 all time



Kobe without Shaq also had more help - relative to the era - than Hakeem did.

[Myth]

Kobe without Shaq also had more help - relative to the era - than Hakeem did.

Also, that statement is just simply wrong.

[ac_gold_26]

Is this guy retarded? Jordan & Pippen 6 rings Shaq & Kobe 3 rings enough said. That right there makes them the best Due what an idiot. A Due is two players who cares what they do on there own what matters is how many rings they got while they were teamed up.

[guy]

pippens a legend, can defend 4 positions, top 5 all around 2 way player ever

jordan doesnt have a winning season without him... let alone a finals or ring

You're so right. I'm a complete idiot :hammerhead:

:rolleyes:

[tazb]

wade will be retired in a few years

LeBron will extend his career like Gasol did Kobe.

[Cali Syndicate]

he had pippen who was a dominant post up player

and he had rodman/grant who were great post defenders/rebounders

rodman locked up shaq

and the bulls were built on defense. they were like the bulls of now.


thats another way to get it done.

Pippen? Dominant? Really?

Grant was a great rebounder? Great post defender?

Locked up?


None of this is even relatively accurate.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pippen? Dominant? Really?

Grant was a great rebounder? Great post defender?

Locked up?


None of this is even relatively accurate.

Pippen developed a good post game during the mid/late 90's with a jump hook and short bank shot, but wouldn't call him dominant. However, Grant from '92 on was a great post defender and rebounder, or very good, whatever you want to say. Either way, he did excel in those areas, and he was also a solid mid-range shooter, ran the floor well for a big man, a strong finisher who played well off of MJ and Pippen as well as a good passer.

One thing Grant couldn't really do was create his own shot. He wasn't really a 1 on 1 post player, but they didn't need him to be.

[Cali Syndicate]

Pippen developed a good post game during the mid/late 90's with a jump hook and short bank shot, but wouldn't call him dominant. However, Grant from '92 on was a great post defender and rebounder, or very good, whatever you want to say. Either way, he did excel in those areas, and he was also a solid mid-range shooter, ran the floor well for a big man, a strong finisher who played well off of MJ and Pippen as well as a good passer.

One thing Grant couldn't really do was create his own shot. He wasn't really a 1 on 1 post player, but they didn't need him to be.

Pippen was a solid post player. I know this. Dominant? Not even close.

Grant wasn't great in any of those two aspects. It's not a matter of semantics either. The term great gets tossed around way too loosely around here it's not even funny. Rodman was a great rebounder. Grant does not fit in that category.

[dh144498]

kareem went to 1 finals and won 1 ring without magic

magic went to 1 final and never won without kareem
--------------------------------------------

jordan went to 0 finals without pippen and never won without pippen

pippen went to 0 finals without jordan and never won without jordan
--------------------------------------------

kobe went to 3 finals and won 2 rings without shaq

shaq went to 2 finals and won 1 ring without kobe
---------------------------------------------------------------



its obvious kobe and shaq didn't need each other as much as those other guys needed each other

wait, didnt Shaq go to 1 final without Kobe? :confusedshrug:

[Cali Syndicate]

wait, didnt Shaq go to 1 final without Kobe? :confusedshrug:

Orlando in 95

[Psycho]

wait, didnt Shaq go to 1 final without Kobe? :confusedshrug:

It was before you were born don't worry about it.

[dh144498]

Orlando in 95

o yeah....

[TheBigVeto]

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg


http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif


U Mad Kobetards?
Kobetards are phaggits
Kobe isn't a great player, FACT

[Nevaeh]

pippens a legend, can defend 4 positions, top 5 all around 2 way player ever

jordan doesnt have a winning season without him... let alone a finals or ring

And Kobe won no MVPs or Finals MVPs while he was teamed with Shaq.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Seriously dude, are these the type of "Nervous Breakdown" type threads that we can expect from you and the "clan" throughout this year's Playoffs?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

Anyway, to answer the original question, it's without a doubt Pip and MJ. They simply complimented each other's games beyond any duo to play, IMO.