Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

[esiotrot]

First off: he gets a lot of cheap calls because of his flailing limbs and sht.

But last year, he averaged 28.0ppg on 49.6/38.7/86.0 (61%TS) with 7.6 free throws per game.

:confusedshrug:

[mjokc]

Only people who are insecure about their favorite player. In other words Lebron, Kobe or Melo fans. :lol

[Graviton]

People are just overreacting to the latest Melo hot streak and bashing Durant because they are "scoring rivals".

[Eric Cartman]

People are just overreacting to the latest Melo hot streak and bashing Durant because they are "scoring rivals".

This.

[esiotrot]

Only people who are insecure about their favorite player. In other words Lebron, Kobe or Melo fans. :lol

I'm a Lebron fan, but I'm not overly unrealistic.

I think you're looking for Lebron, Kobe or Melo stans.

[Hoopz2332]

Only people who are insecure about their favorite player. In other words Lebron, Kobe or Melo fans. :lol


lebron is so much better than Durant his "stans" shouldn't have to worry about Durant...Melo and Kobe stans are another story considering Durant is better than both of them:lol

[mjokc]

I'm a Lebron fan, but I'm not overly unrealistic.

I think you're looking for Lebron, Kobe or Melo stans.

Yeah sorry, that was a bad generalization on my part. I know there are dumb KD stans too.

[mjokc]

lebron is so much better than Durant his "stans" shouldn't have to worry about Durant...Melo and Kobe stans are another story considering Durant is better than both of them:lol

I agree that Lebron is better, but that doesn't mean that Lebron stans aren't insecure if you DARE say that KD is better at something than Lebron.

[esiotrot]

Yeah sorry, that was a bad generalization on my part. I know there are dumb KD stans too.

The funny this is, in my six months of lurking, I've only seen one Durant stan (28renyoy/Joyner). And I haven't seen any Melo stans. They're usually just New York Knicks fans enthusiastic about their team.

[DMAVS41]

Probably, but unfortunately most people are just stupid on here.

Durant goes to the line less than 1 more time than the likes of Kobe and Melo.

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6

So everyone think about that for a second. That means that Durant, on average, draws a little less than 1 more shooting foul per game than comparable scorers. Harden goes to the line more often. Drawing fouls is part of being a great scorer.

Love him or hate him, I think anyone without a huge bias would at least admit he's really good a drawing fouls. So I don't think it's that unreasonable for a guy like Durant to go to the free throw line roughly 1 more time per game than some of the other elite scorers in the league.

I know, logic just sucks.

[maybeshewill13]

Probably, but unfortunately most people are just stupid on here.

Durant goes to the line less than 1 more time than the likes of Kobe and Melo.

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6

So everyone think about that for a second. That means that Durant, on average, draws a little less than 1 more shooting foul per game than comparable scorers. Harden goes to the line more often. Drawing fouls is part of being a great scorer.

Love him or hate him, I think anyone without a huge bias would at least admit he's really good a drawing fouls. So I don't think it's that unreasonable for a guy like Durant to go to the free throw line roughly 1 more time per game than some of the other elite scorers in the league.

I know, logic just sucks.

Would rep. People are so ****ing stupid. Apparently Durant only scores like he does because of free throws, but Kobe and Melo, who only go to the line 1 time less and that's irrelevant. ISH is so ****ing retarded.. :facepalm

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Probably, but unfortunately most people are just stupid on here.

Durant goes to the line less than 1 more time than the likes of Kobe and Melo.

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6

So everyone think about that for a second. That means that Durant, on average, draws a little less than 1 more shooting foul per game than comparable scorers. Harden goes to the line more often. Drawing fouls is part of being a great scorer.

Love him or hate him, I think anyone without a huge bias would at least admit he's really good a drawing fouls. So I don't think it's that unreasonable for a guy like Durant to go to the free throw line roughly 1 more time per game than some of the other elite scorers in the league.

I know, logic just sucks.
9.4 - 7.7 = 1.7

[DMAVS41]

9.4 - 7.7 = 1.7

And you get two free throws per every trip to the line. :confusedshrug:

Hence roughly 1 more trip to the free throw line.

[mjokc]

And you get two free throws per every trip to the line. :confusedshrug:

Hence roughly 1 more trip to the free throw line.

http://i.minus.com/itrPkSnhPgffv.gif

[maybeshewill13]

9.4 - 7.7 = 1.7
HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :facepalm

[esiotrot]

Yeah sorry, that was a bad generalization on my part. I know there are dumb KD stans too.

The funny this is, I've only seen one Durant stan (28renyoy/joyner) and most Melo 'stans' are just really optimistic Knicks fans.

[Greg Oden 50]

People are just overreacting to the latest Melo hot streak and bashing Durant because they are "scoring rivals".


DURANT IS REFS's LOVER,PLAIN & SIMPLE........:banana:
he wiill never able plays in 80s-90s beaucse he is so soft :rockon:

[joeyjoejoe]

Na ppl don't believe that they just annoyed that he gets the whistle a little too often, dude can shoot the lights out tho

[All Net]

Maybe people who wear blindfolds..

[ThatsGame]

Maybe it's HOW he gets to the line and not HOW MANY times.

Or in the case of Durant both.

[Clutch]

If you watch OKC you can see that a lot of fouls that Durant draws are phantom calls or weak ass fouls.

Him going to the line a lot raises his FG% (when you miss a shot and you're fouled it doesn't count as a missed field goal attempt) and also results in defenders not being able to pressure him because they know refs will call a foul even if they breathe on him.

I don't need statistical evidence. I watch games and I know Durant gets most phantom fouls in the league,and BY FAR.

[Segatti]

People blame him because he is smart and takes advantage of the bad refeering. Doesn't matter what they say though, still the best scorer today.

[ThatsGame]

People blame him because he is smart and takes advantage of the bad refeering. Doesn't matter what they say though, still the best scorer today.

Doesn't matter what you say, scoring off bad refereeing doesn't make you the best scorer today, it makes you babied by the league and is covering up flaws.

[lilgodfather1]

Durant is a very good scorer, but some of the calls he gets are terrible. If he got treated like LeBron he wouldn't be the league leader in points. It comes down to the body types. If LeBron gets legitimately fouled on the arm, he's still making the shot because he's so strong. With KD he's missing the shot, and getting FT's.

[HarryCallahan]

If you watch OKC you can see that a lot of fouls that Durant draws are phantom calls or weak ass fouls.

Him going to the line a lot raises his FG% (when you miss a shot and you're fouled it doesn't count as a missed field goal attempt) and also results in defenders not being able to pressure him because they know refs will call a foul even if they breathe on him.

I don't need statistical evidence. I watch games and I know Durant gets most phantom fouls in the league,and BY FAR.

:applause: Keep telling yourself that.

[Sarcastic]

Durant has taken 722 free throws on 1380 field goal attempts, or .523 free throws per field goal attempt.

Carmelo has taken 479 free throws on 1387 field goal attempts, or .345 free throws per field goal attempt.

Kobe has taken 581 free throws on 1529 field goal attempts, or .377 free thows per field goal attempt.

Lebron has taken 513 free throw on 1316 field goal attempts, or .389 free throws per field goal attempt.



Of course Durant is an amazing player, but to say that he is not aided by free throws is ludicrous.

[BuffaloBill]

Only people who are insecure about their favorite player. In other words Lebron, Kobe or Melo fans. :lol



Nailed it in the first post.

[Clutch]

Durant has taken 722 free throws on 1380 field goal attempts, or .523 free throws per field goal attempt.

Carmelo has taken 479 free throws on 1387 field goal attempts, or .345 free throws per field goal attempt.

Kobe has taken 581 free throws on 1529 field goal attempts, or .377 free thows per field goal attempt.

Lebron has taken 513 free throw on 1316 field goal attempts, or .389 free throws per field goal attempt.



Of course Durant is an amazing player, but to say that he is not aided by free throws is ludicrous.
:applause:

[Blue&Orange]

Probably, but unfortunately most people are just stupid on here.

Durant goes to the line less than 1 more time than the likes of Kobe and Melo.

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6
Melo 22fga, Durant 17.9fga. You're 100% right, most people are just stupid here, they don't even know how to use stats correctly.

For your education:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8423412&postcount=29

[juju151111]

Doesn't matter what you say, scoring off bad refereeing doesn't make you the best scorer today, it makes you babied by the league and is covering up flaws.
Why did Durant still dominant last season then while averging 7.6 fts

[DaSeba5]

You shouldn't take what you read on here that serious half the time. Many of the posters just say things for attention. Nobody really does anything to ban the trolls. You just have to follow and listen to the quality posters on here like DMAVS41.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

And you get two free throws per every trip to the line. :confusedshrug:

Hence roughly 1 more trip to the free throw line.
My bad i misinterpreted what you said. I agree with your post though.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Durant is obviously a great scorer regardless. He's an unbelievable shooter from everywhere, and it's impossible to contest his shot since he's 6'10" with the arms of a seven footer, which also makes him a very good finisher. He moves well without the ball, and can create his own shot off the dribble.




Probably, but unfortunately most people are just stupid on here.

Durant goes to the line less than 1 more time than the likes of Kobe and Melo.

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6

You can't just post FTA without FGA. Durant attempts just 17.9 FGA while Melo takes 22 and Kobe takes 20.4, meaning Durant gets to the line at a much higher rate than any of them.

Durant averages a free throw attempt for every 1.91 FGA. Melo averages a FTA for every 2.9 FGA and Kobe averages a free throw attempt for every 2.63 FGA.

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

I don't care what you personally interpret these numbers, just don't pretend Melo and Kobe get to the line at a comparable rate, because it's simply not true.

Personally, I think Durant's FTA this year are excessive. Last season, he attempted a free throw for every 2.59 FGA, now it's a FT for every 1.91 FGA as I mentioned before.

And he's not attempting more shots at the rim either.

2012
At Rim: 4.2 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.1 FGA

2013
At Rim: 4.0 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.0 FGA

That's why his TS% has jumped from 61% last season to 64% this season while his eFG% has remained roughly the same at just over 55% this season vs just under last season.

[ClutchOver9000]

Durant is obviously a great scorer regardless. He's an unbelievable shooter from everywhere, and it's impossible to contest his shot since he's 6'10" with the arms of a seven footer, which also makes him a very good finisher. He moves well without the ball, and can create his own shot off the dribble.





You can't just post FTA without FGA. Durant attempts just 17.9 FGA while Melo takes 22 and Kobe takes 20.4, meaning Durant gets to the line at a much higher rate than any of them.

Durant averages a free throw attempt for every 1.91 FGA. Melo averages a FTA for every 2.9 FGA and Kobe averages a free throw attempt for every 2.63 FGA.

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

I don't care what you personally interpret these numbers, just don't pretend Melo and Kobe get to the line at a comparable rate, because it's simply not true.

Personally, I think Durant's FTA this year are excessive. Last season, he attempted a free throw for every 2.59 FGA, now it's a FT for every 1.91 FGA as I mentioned before.

And he's not attempting more shots at the rim either.

2012
At Rim: 4.2 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.1 FGA

2013
At Rim: 4.0 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.0 FGA

That's why his TS% has jumped from 61% last season to 64% this season while his eFG% has remained roughly the same at just over 55% this season vs just under last season.

/thread

[Element]

The point is that:

- He really should have much less FTAs then he does get, not the discrepancy between him and Melo. That would decrease not only his PPG but also TS%.

- Those FTA that should've been missed FGA also unfairly boost his TS% and FG% which gives him god-like efficiency

- Melo should get WAY more FTA, I mean he gets hacked on pretty much half his post-ups and sometimes won't even get a call when he tips it back in
-

[NBAller]

Stat sheet freaks. Does he get about 30ppg? enough said.

[DMAVS41]

Durant is obviously a great scorer regardless. He's an unbelievable shooter from everywhere, and it's impossible to contest his shot since he's 6'10" with the arms of a seven footer, which also makes him a very good finisher. He moves well without the ball, and can create his own shot off the dribble.





You can't just post FTA without FGA. Durant attempts just 17.9 FGA while Melo takes 22 and Kobe takes 20.4, meaning Durant gets to the line at a much higher rate than any of them.

Durant averages a free throw attempt for every 1.91 FGA. Melo averages a FTA for every 2.9 FGA and Kobe averages a free throw attempt for every 2.63 FGA.

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

I don't care what you personally interpret these numbers, just don't pretend Melo and Kobe get to the line at a comparable rate, because it's simply not true.

Personally, I think Durant's FTA this year are excessive. Last season, he attempted a free throw for every 2.59 FGA, now it's a FT for every 1.91 FGA as I mentioned before.

And he's not attempting more shots at the rim either.

2012
At Rim: 4.2 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.1 FGA

2013
At Rim: 4.0 FGA
3-10 feet: 3.0 FGA

That's why his TS% has jumped from 61% last season to 64% this season while his eFG% has remained roughly the same at just over 55% this season vs just under last season.

How is that bringing any context to the numbers when all that shows is that Durant is much better at drawing fouls when he shoots. And probably means that Kobe and Melo take a handful of bad shots a game that Durant doesn't...and doesn't have to because of his team. You see....your breakdown isn't really that fair because of the following;

Take Kobe. Well, he takes 1 more 3 per game. So there goes 1 of those extra shots...obviously you can get fouled on a 3, but pretty rare. Down to 19.4 vs 17.9. Now, how many shots a game does Kobe settle for vs Durant not. I'd say Kobe probably takes something around 1 to 2 just bad shots a game that Durant, on average, doesn't take. Now you start to get very close on the shot attempts per game in which the player can realistically get fouled. Then...all you have to do is factor in the simple fact that Durant is easily superior at drawing fouls...hence you get him going to the line roughly 1 more time per game.

Take Melo. Same thing. Melo takes 2 more threes per game. Down to 20 vs 17.9 on that alone. Again, how many bad shots does Melo take a game that Durant doesn't? Probably 1 to 2 again. So now you are at something like 19 vs 17.9. Factor in Durant's superior ability to get to the line and you have the difference...that is very conceivable.

At some point you have to give players credit for what they do well. Harden and Durant are great at drawing fouls...

And those numbers over the course of a season might look big...but they really aren't on a per game basis.

Like I said before...I think Durant's superior ability to draw shooting fouls over Kobe and Carmelo easily leads to an extra trip to the ft line a game.

It never ceases to amaze me how people just can't give credit to certain players for what they do well...instead it has to be about some NBA conspiracy to gift Durant free throws.

I don't know what you think of Harden then. He takes a full shot less than Durant per game and shoots almost 1 more free throw.

It's really quite simple. Durant has better shot selection and shoots less threes. He also settles a little less than both Kobe and Melo...and he's just better at drawing fouls. On threes alone it cuts your fga argument down considerably.

[Element]

Lol DMAVS Durant gets free throws with little to no contact moreso than any other superstar since MJ, including Wade when he was in his D-Whistle prime and he does that sh.it with less at rim FGA than any of them, includig 100-year old 2013 Kobe Bryant.

The guy gets equally as many FTA as motherfvckn 06 Kobe who attempted 27 (!!) FGA and 6 at rim, as well as 01 Iverson who got hacked hard on his penetrations AND jumpers while obv attempting more FGA from any area on the court.

Durant's gaudy numbers both efficiency and volume wise are stupidly inflated because of Supersupersuperstar treatment. Nikka prolly has nudes of Stern or some sh.it like that.

Dirk in contrast is a jumpshooter who legitimately gets fouled most of the time, since his shot is literally unblockable and sniper-like in accuracy.

And Harden is a bad comparison. He's similar because he's a flopper but he's a statisticians wet dream in terms of shot selection. He drives much much more than KD and looks to actually finish the play more often, plus he's a better flopper and his Eurostep is so deceptive that you have to foul him.

I think KD reffed by normal superstar standards is a 25-28 ppg @ 58-60 TS% player which is still excellent.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How is that bringing any context to the numbers when all that shows is that Durant is much better at drawing fouls when he shoots.

At some point you have to give players credit for what they do well. Harden and Durant are great at drawing fouls...

And those numbers over the course of a season might look big...but they really aren't on a per game basis.

Like I said before...I think Durant's superior ability to draw shooting fouls over Kobe and Carmelo easily leads to an extra trip to the ft line a game.

It never ceases to amaze me how people just can't give credit to certain players for what they do well...instead it has to be about some NBA conspiracy to gift Durant free throws.

I don't know what you think of Harden then. He takes a full shot less than Durant per game and shoots almost 1 more free throw.

Conspiracy there as well?

First of all, don't dodge the fact that you posted deceptive numbers to try to suggest Melo and Kobe got to the line at a comparable rate. I proved that to be false. So lets get that out of the way.

As far as the rate Durant draws fouls at, I didn't tell you how to interpret the numbers. In fact, I just posted them and specifically said, interpret those anyway you want.

I didn't say Kobe and Melo should get to the line at the same rate Durant does. I watch them play, and would expect Durant to get more free throws because his shot is so difficult to contest, his off the ball movement sometimes gets him right under the basket which is almost always going to result in a foul or basket because you can't do much in that situation and as I mentioned, Durant's length makes him a very good finisher.

Melo on the other hand isn't the finisher Durant is and he gets a lot of shots blocked. But it's also clear he doesn't get anywhere near the calls Durant does. If you try to argue that, you simply don't watch both play. Melo actually does attempt 1.7 extra shots around the rim than Durant as well. And to put those numbers in better context, 26% of Melo's shots come at the rim, while 22.1% of Durant's shots come at the rim.

Durant sells the calls better, he always throws his arms up on a drive, but the refs almost always give him the benefit of the doubt, even if there's not much contact. For example, if Durant takes a jumper, misses it, but twists a little while he's shooting it, he'll almost always get free throws, same thing with lay ups. He still gets shooting fouls at times on that rip move as well, even when the other team isn't in the penalty.

And tell me, why Durant's free throws have increased so much from last season? I don't have a problem with him getting to the line a lot, but the rate is excessive, and I don't see anyway to argue that. He's getting to the line at a much higher rate than peak 2000 Shaq, a guy who played as physical as anyone, pretty much exclusively 10 feet and in, and was intentionally fouled.

[DMAVS41]

Lol DMAVS Durant gets free throws with little to no contact moreso than any other superstar since MJ, including Wade when he was in his D-Whistle prime and he does that sh.it with less at rim FGA than any of them, includig 100-year old 2013 Kobe Bryant.

The guy gets equally as many FTA as motherfvckn 06 Kobe who attempted 27 (!!) FGA and 6 at rim, as well as 01 Iverson who got hacked hard on his penetrations AND jumpers while obv attempting more FGA from any area on the court.

Durant's gaudy numbers both efficiency and volume wise are stupidly inflated because of Supersupersuperstar treatment. Nikka prolly has nudes of Stern or some sh.it like that.

Dirk in contrast is a jumpshooter who legitimately gets fouled most of the time, since his shot is literally unblockable and sniper-like in accuracy.

And Harden is a bad comparison. He's similar because he's a flopper but he's a statisticians wet dream in terms of shot selection. He drives much much more than KD and looks to actually finish the play more often, plus he's a better flopper and his Eurostep is so deceptive that you have to foul him.

I think KD reffed by normal superstar standards is a 25-28 ppg @ 58-60 TS% player which is still excellent.

Let's try this.

For the sake of argument, lets say that a player can't get fouled on a 3...just so we have some common ground to work off of. Obviously you can, but it's rare and indicative of settling.

If you even up the threes shot per game. You get.

Durant 17.9 fga
Melo 20 fga
Kobe 19.4 fga

Now, I'd normally argue that both Kobe and Melo take a couple more shots per game in which drawing a foul is unlikely. The Kobe...pick up the ball...pump fake 3 times...and then shoot a fade away comes to mind. But even if that all adds up to just 1 more bad shot per game...you get;

Durant 17.9
Melo 19
Kobe 18.4

And then you are getting close enough to just see the truth. That Durant is better at drawing fouls and getting to the line than Kobe and Melo...and easily explains going to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

You can't just list fga and not put the attempts into some type of context. You also can't just ignore that Durant has a superior ability and should be going to the line at a higher rate.

So what more do you need explained? Better ability to get to the line...and the two players brought up take at least 2 to 3 shots per game more than Durant in which they are highly unlikely to get fouled.

[DMAVS41]

First of all, don't dodge the fact that you posted deceptive numbers to try to suggest Melo and Kobe got to the line at a comparable rate. I proved that to be false. So lets get that out of the way.

As far as the rate Durant draws fouls at, I didn't tell you how to interpret the numbers. In fact, I just posted them and specifically said, interpret those anyway you want.

I didn't say Kobe and Melo should get to the line at the same rate Durant does. I watch them play, and would expect Durant to get more free throws because his shot is so difficult to contest, his off the ball movement sometimes gets him right under the basket which is almost always going to result in a foul or basket because you can't do much in that situation and as I mentioned, Durant's length makes him a very good finisher.

Melo on the other hand isn't the finisher Durant is and he gets a lot of shots blocked. But it's also clear he doesn't get anywhere near the calls Durant does. If you try to argue that, you simply don't watch both play. Melo actually does attempt 1.7 extra shots around the rim than Durant as well. And to put those numbers in better context, 26% of Melo's shots come at the rim, while 22.1% of Durant's shots come at the rim.

Durant sells the calls better, he always throws his arms up on a drive, but the refs almost always give him the benefit of the doubt, even if there's not much contact. For example, if Durant takes a jumper, misses it, but twists a little while he's shooting it, he'll almost always get free throws, same thing with lay ups. He still gets shooting fouls at times on that rip move as well, even when the other team isn't in the penalty.

And tell me, why Durant's free throws have increased so much from last season? I don't have a problem with him getting to the line a lot, but the rate is excessive, and I don't see anyway to argue that. He's getting to the line at a much higher rate than peak 2000 Shaq, a guy who played as physical as anyone, pretty much exclusively 10 feet and in, and was intentionally fouled.

Lets get this out of the way. Your numbers are deceptive. I posted nothing deceptive. Just reality.

You can't just post fga and pretend like it is equal. And I never even said they got to the line at a comparable rate. I said it wasn't that big of a difference...which it isn't on a per game basis. And I said it was deserved for Durant because he's just better at drawing fouls.

On threes alone you have to remove 2 shots per game from Melo and 1 shot per game from Kobe.

And we all know both of those guys take more bad shots than Durant besides that as well.

So it's not hard man. Durant is better at drawing fouls and Melo / Kobe take more threes and more bad shots. So that total number of fga per game that the players are in a situation to actually get fouled starts to get very close.

So besides trying to cover up the fact that your fga comparison is bs...you basically just agree that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what is your problem?

[tpols]

Durant shoots 9.4 free throws per game.

Kobe shoots 7.7 and Melo shoots 7.6
.
This is the exact same thing as saying the difference between 45%FG and 50%FG is minimal because its only one extra shot missed per game for a superstar averaging ~20 shots. And that logic was debunked a long time ago..

Durant gets 20+% MORE free throws than kobe and melo while taking less shots.

Sarcatic brought up a great Stat..

50+% FGA/FT ratio for Durant versus 30%s FGA/FT ratio for nearly every other superstar.

For a jumpshooter...

[Element]

Durant and Kobe take almost the same % of mid range shots of their total FGA. One of them leans into defenders, pump fakes mid air, etc to get the call. The other you breathe on, he flails his arms and he's sent to the line for a pair of free throws. Yeah Kobe takes way more bad fadeaways etc than anyone else, but he's also the best at making them. That ability is his greatest strength and weakness at the same time. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that KD is fairly reffed, even for superstar standards. He gets at least 1-3 illegitimate trips to the line each game. That recent game @ Indy is one of his few post-ASG very good scoring performances without him getting bailed out like crazy and shooting 12-15 FTA

[DMAVS41]

This is the exact same thing as saying the difference between 45%FG and 50%FG is minimal because its only one extra shot missed per game for a superstar averaging ~20 shots. And that logic was debunked a long time ago..

Durant gets 20+% MORE free throws than kobe and melo while taking less shots.

Sarcatic brought up a great Stat..

50+% FGA/FT ratio for Durant versus 30%s FGA/FT ratio for nearly every other superstar.

For a jumpshooter...

Well, yes...I guess. But the main point was not to say that the difference isn't there or important.

It was to say it was deserved. It makes perfect sense that Durant goes to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

I would never say the difference isn't important, but I would say it is within reason given the evidence.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lets get this out of the way. Your numbers are deceptive. I posted nothing deceptive. Just reality.

No, I posted numbers with context. You simply posted total FTA, which is obviously deceptive as I showed.


You can't just post fga and pretend like it is equal. And I never even said they got to the line at a comparable rate. I said it wasn't that big of a difference...which it isn't on a per game basis. And I said it was deserved for Durant because he's just better at drawing fouls.

It is a big difference in terms of averages, and especially the rate they get to the line at. To show you what a big difference it's made, Durant's TS% has jumped from 61% to 64% based almost solely on the fact that the rate he gets to the line at increased so much from last season.


On threes alone you have to remove 2 shots per game from Melo and 1 shot per game from Kobe.

And I posted how many shots Melo and Durant take at the rim, so this is irrelevant.


And we all know both of those guys take more bad shots than Durant besides that as well.

So it's not hard man. Durant is better at drawing fouls and Melo / Kobe take more threes and more bad shots. So that total number of fga per game that the players are in a situation to actually get fouled starts to get very close.

Durant is better at drawing fouls, doesn't mean he deserves all of them that he gets. Besides, Kobe has probably been the best in the league at drawing legitimate fouls on jump shots for years.


So besides trying to cover up the fact that your fga comparison is bs...you basically just agree that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what is your problem?

I just told you, it's the excessive rate. The fact that he gets to the line at a noticeably higher rate than 2000 Shaq is laughable.

And it's clear to anyone who watches them play that Melo doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays. Melo often gets hit going inside with no foul calls, if there's the slightest contact on Durant, or even just someone contesting an easy shot of his that he misses, he usually gets the call.

And the only one whose trying to cover anything up is you. You posted simple FTA numbers(which weren't that close) to try to suggest he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate.

[DMAVS41]

Durant and Kobe take almost the same % of mid range shots of their total FGA. One of them leans into defenders, pump fakes mid air, etc to get the call. The other you breathe on, he flails his arms and he's sent to the line for a pair of free throws. Yeah Kobe takes way more bad fadeaways etc than anyone else, but he's also the best at making them. That ability is his greatest strength and weakness at the same time. You cannot honestly say with a straight face that KD is fairly reffed, even for superstar standards. He gets at least 1-3 illegitimate trips to the line each game. That recent game @ Indy is one of his few post-ASG very good scoring performances without him getting bailed out like crazy and shooting 12-15 FTA

That doesn't make sense given what you just said.

17.9 vs 20.4

Subtract the extra 3 that kobe shoots;

17.9 vs 19.4

Then you just said Kobe takes "way more bad fadeaways"(his ability to make them has no relevance here)...but let's just say he takes 1 more bad shot a game with no chance to get fouled;

17.9 vs 18.4

Then factor in Durant's superior ability to get to the line. Which is more than reasonable to equal a little less than 1 extra trip to the line per game. Which makes sense.

I mean. What are you people actually complaining about? That one of the best players in the league...that happens to be one of the best players at drawing fouls...is shooting a couple extra free throws a game on very similar shot attempts when getting fouled is actually possible? Makes sense to me.

We'd also need the amount of tech and defensive 3 second free throws shot on the year. I have no idea what those numbers would do, but that would give us a better idea as well.

[DMAVS41]

No, I posted numbers with context. You simply posted total FTA, which is obviously deceptive as I showed.



It is a big difference in terms of averages, and especially the rate they get to the line at. To show you what a big difference it's made, Durant's TS% has jumped from 61% to 64% based almost solely on the fact that the rate he gets to the line at increased so much from last season.



And I posted how many shots Melo and Durant take at the rim, so this is irrelevant.



Durant is better at drawing fouls, doesn't mean he deserves all of them that he gets. Besides, Kobe has probably been the best in the league at drawing legitimate fouls on jump shots for years.



I just told you, it's the excessive rate. The fact that he gets to the line at a noticeably higher rate than 2000 Shaq is laughable.

And it's clear to anyone who watches them play that Melo doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays. Melo often gets hit going inside with no foul calls, if there's the slightest contact on Durant, or even just someone contesting an easy shot of his that he misses, he usually gets the call.

And the only one whose trying to cover anything up is you. You posted simple FTA numbers(which weren't that close) to try to suggest he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate.

You didn't answer anything.

What do shots at the rim matter without the context of those shots. You mean the ones where Melo just throws it at the backboard and gets his own rebound for a tip in. He does that frequently enough for that to make your shots at the rim thing irrelevant.

And no, sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that Melo takes 2 more threes per game. LOL...so biased.

I never said he doesn't get to the line at a higher rate or more often. Those are facts. I simply said it wasn't that big of a gap when you really think about it...all of the stuff I'm talking about was implied.

You, on the other hand, want to compare fga and ft rate as if that is a fair comparison. When we all know when we watch the games that Melo and Kobe settle for more bad shots with little to no chance to get fouled one. On 3's alone it cuts that fga nonsense you were spewing way down. And again...shots at the rim does not mean one player should get to the line more often.

When you subtract 3's and the amount of bad shots Kobe and Melo both take...you get a comparable number of shots that these players can get fouled on. Then the difference is simple...and something everyone agrees with. Durant is better at drawing fouls.

Amazing how logic works.

[tpols]

Well, yes...I guess. But the main point was not to say that the difference isn't there or important.

It was to say it was deserved. It makes perfect sense that Durant goes to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

I would never say the difference isn't important, but I would say it is within reason given the evidence.
It isnt deserved though.. Forget Kobe and Melo.

Compare Durant to Lebron, a guy who actually penetrates and draws a similar amount of contact(more actually) and plays efficiently/smartly with a similar amount of FGA.

37% ratio to 52% ratio

Whats your explanation for that?


Watching the games, you can see Durant using his long arms to sweep under or through the defenders arms even if the defender is within his own space. This happens whenever Durant is dribbling and gets pressured inside the arc. Durant will always sweep and flail, and since he has the length to make serious contact, hell get the call.

Its one thing to bait the refs when youre trying to score.. but KD is approaching late 2011 D-Wade levels of ref baiting. Literally every single time down the court if he goes into the paint he acts like he was fouled. Its like the mentality of 'scorers' has switched from trying to simply put the ball in the basket, to relying on refs to just gift you opportunities.

Like a dog that was given to many treats and doesnt want to go hunting for his own food anymore.

[Greg Oden 50]

First off: he gets a lot of cheap calls because of his flailing limbs and sht.

But last year, he averaged 28.0ppg on 49.6/38.7/86.0 (61%TS) with 7.6 free throws per game.

:confusedshrug:

he is overrated :banana:

[ShaqAttack3234]

You didn't answer anything.

What do shots at the rim matter without the context of those shots. You mean the ones where Melo just throws it at the backboard and gets his own rebound for a tip in. He does that frequently enough for that to make your shots at the rim thing irrelevant.

And no, sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that Melo takes 2 more threes per game. LOL...so biased.

You calling me biased is incredibly ironic. There's been nothing here to suggest any bias on my part.

Yeah, I've seen Melo do the Moses thing at times, but don't pretend Melo doesn't go in, use and his body and not get the call. Calls Durant will get 95% of the time. Hubie Brown said a few times in the game yesterday that Melo should be shooting free throws on plays he didn't get the call. It happens regularly.

I've answered every poor attempt at an argument you've made. Fact is, Melo takes more shots at the rim, and that's where most fouls occur.

The Shaq example should be a good indication of how many calls Durant gets. You want to pretend Durant is in a position to get fouled more than Shaq was in 2000?

[DMAVS41]

It isnt deserved though.. Forget Kobe and Melo.

Compare Durant to Lebron, a guy who actually penetrates and draws a similar amount of contact(more actually) and plays efficiently/smartly with a similar amount of FGA.

37% ratio to 52% ratio

Whats your explanation for that?


Watching the games, you can see Durant using his long arms to sweep under or through the defenders arms even if the defender is within his own space. This happens whenever Durant is dribbling and gets pressured inside the arc. Durant will always sweep and flail, and since he has the length to make serious contact, hell get the call.

Its one thing to bait the refs when youre trying to score.. but KD is approaching late 2011 D-Wade levels of ref baiting. Literally every single time down the court if he goes into the paint he acts like he was fouled. Its like the mentality of 'scorers' has switched from trying to simply put the ball in the basket, to relying on refs to just gift you opportunities.

Like a dog that was given to many treats and doesnt want to go hunting for his own food anymore.

It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.

[ThatsGame]

If you actually just sit and watch a Heat game or a Knick game or a OKC game you can see with your own damn eyes why people have an issue with Durant. You don't need to bring out your list of numbers with comparisons because THEY DONT ****IN RECORD WHETHER CALLS ARE BS OR NOT


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[ThatsGame]

It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.

That's complete BULLSHIT. Others are getting hacked and aren't getting calls. Durant is getting babied. It's simple.

[clayton]

Cuz KD's game revolves around shooting freethrows nowadays.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/04/16/sports/basketball/16dribbledurant/16dribbledurant-articleInline.jpg

[DMAVS41]

You calling me biased is incredibly ironic. There's been nothing here to suggest any bias on my part.

Yeah, I've seen Melo do the Moses thing at times, but don't pretend Melo doesn't go in, use and his body and not get the call. Calls Durant will get 95% of the time. Hubie Brown said a few times in the game yesterday that Melo should be shooting free throws on plays he didn't get the call. It happens regularly.

I've answered every poor attempt at an argument you've made. Fact is, Melo takes more shots at the rim, and that's where most fouls occur.

The Shaq example should be a good indication of how many calls Durant gets. You want to pretend Durant is in a position to get fouled more than Shaq was in 2000?

You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

Again. All you are proving is exactly what I said. Durant is better at drawing fouls (which you agreed with) and he takes better shots (you don't realize you are making this point, but you are)

The truth is that if we were all being honest

Durant takes 17.9 shots per game...that is the basis.

When you account for 3's and bad shots...I'd say;

Kobe takes 18 shots per game he can be fouled on.
Melo takes 19 shots per game he can be fouled on.

So your fga vs ft rate line of thinking is bogus.

You are basically saying. OMG...Kobe takes 2.5 more shots per games and shoots less free throws.

And I'm saying...But Kobe takes 1 more three per game. He also takes more bad shots. And, the kicker, Durant is better at drawing fouls.

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

That's complete BULLSHIT. Others are getting hacked and aren't getting calls. Durant is getting babied. It's simple.

Yes. The league is biased against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo...and they love Durant and Harden.

That makes more sense than just using simple logic. :facepalm

[ShaqAttack3234]

You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.

Again. All you are proving is exactly what I said. Durant is better at drawing fouls (which you agreed with) and he takes better shots (you don't realize you are making this point, but you are)

The truth is that if we were all being honest

Durant takes 17.9 shots per game...that is the basis.

When you account for 3's and bad shots...I'd say;

Kobe takes 18 shots per game he can be fouled on.
Melo takes 19 shots per game he can be fouled on.

So your fga vs ft rate line of thinking is bogus.

You are basically saying. OMG...Kobe takes 2.5 more shots per games and shoots less free throws.

And I'm saying...But Kobe takes 1 more three per game. He also takes more bad shots. And, the kicker, Durant is better at drawing fouls.

:wtf:

I never disputed that Durant takes better shots either. I never disputed that he should get to the line at a higher rate the way he plays. But stop harping on the 3s thing when I already posted the shots at the rim, which is much more accurate since there are a lot of 2s you're not likely to get fouled on, most jump shots actually, and if you are going to get fouled on a jump shot, you're not much more likely to get fouled on a 2 point jump shot than a 3.

The margin isn't small, and while Durant deserves to get to the line at a higher rate than Melo, it's clear they're not officiated the same, and Melo doesn't get the benefit of the whistles Durant does. And you still haven't addressed the Shaq point(actually, you haven't accurately addressed any of my points, but this one, you haven't even bothered to try). Does Durant deserve to get to the line at a higher rate than 2000 Shaq? I know you won't be harping on your 3 point thing in this example. :oldlol:

Again, nothing to suggest bias. I don't where you're getting that. Melo simply doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays.

[ThatsGame]

Yes. The league is biased against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo...and they love Durant and Harden.

That makes more sense than just using simple logic. :facepalm

Watch the games.

No seriously, just watch the games.

If you still can't see a discrepancy then you're just a troll and/or stupid.

[tpols]

It's deserved because he does it and others don't or can't.
So you can't explain the massive difference in FT ratio between Bron and Durant..

[DMAVS41]

I never disputed that Durant takes better shots either. I never disputed that he should get to the line at a higher rate the way he plays. But stop harping on the 3s thing when I already posted the shots at the rim, which is much more accurate since there are a lot of 2s you're not likely to get fouled on, most jump shots actually, and if you are going to get fouled on a jump shot, you're not much more likely to get fouled on a 2 point jump shot than a 3.

The margin isn't small, and while Durant deserves to get to the line at a higher rate than Melo, it's clear they're not officiated the same, and Melo doesn't get the benefit of the whistles Durant does. And you still haven't addressed the Shaq point(actually, you haven't accurately addressed any of my points, but this one, you haven't even bothered to try). Does Durant deserve to get to the line at a higher rate than 2000 Shaq? I know you won't be harping on your 3 point thing in this example. :oldlol:

Again, nothing to suggest bias. I don't where you're getting that. Melo simply doesn't get the calls Durant does, even on similar plays.

Everything you are saying is biased. Shooting more shots at the rim does not mean you should get to the ft line more.

The game was called much differently back then. So I can't really answer the thing about Shaq.

What I do know, is that Durant deserves to go to the line as often as he does in comparison to Kobe and Melo.

You seem to be stuck in your thinking.

What are shots at the rim total for Durant and Kobe?

[DMAVS41]

So you can't explain the massive difference in FT ratio between Bron and Durant..

What do you mean?

Durant is better at getting to the line. Done...

Makes much more sense than thinking the NBA has a conspiracy against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo....

:wtf:

[DMAVS41]

Watch the games.

No seriously, just watch the games.

If you still can't see a discrepancy then you're just a troll and/or stupid.

If a player is doing something like Durant is doing. What is more likely?

That the league has a conspiracy for Durant and against other elite players?

Or...that Durant is doing something that leads to results that other players aren't doing...or aren't doing as well?

[Ken_Masters]

Durant has REALLY long arms. If i was playing against the guy i'm sure i would probably slap him on one of his long arms too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Durant is reffed differently because he's a 6'9-6'10 twig. I don't think it has anything to do with him trying to "bait" refs or anything.

[DMAVS41]

From 16 feet and beyond;

Kobe takes 10.3 shots per game
Durant takes 8 shots per game

So if you assume that both players have the same chance to get fouled on the rest of their shots....you get;

Durant 17.9
Kobe 18.1

But let's not deduct the entire 2.3 difference because Kobe can get fouled. So let's say it's only a 1.5 difference to account for fouls.

Durant 17.9
Kobe 18.6

So, in this scenario, Kobe is taking .7 more shots per game that he can be fouled on than Durant.

We already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls. We also all agreed that Durant takes less bad shots.

So is it really crazy to think that Durant should be going to the line a little less than 1 more time per game given such a similar amount of attempts in which both players can realistically get fouled?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Everything you are saying is biased. Shooting more shots at the rim does not mean you should get to the ft line more.

The game was called much differently back then. So I can't really answer the thing about Shaq.

What I do know, is that Durant deserves to go to the line as often as he does in comparison to Kobe and Melo.

You seem to be stuck in your thinking.

What are shots at the rim total for Durant and Kobe?

How exactly is their any bias on my part? And you wanted to break down their FGA. You attempted to do so by giving them equal 3s, I did one better by showing their shots at the rim. I'll grant you that you're more likely to get fouled on 2s than 3s in general, but I don't know how you can argue that you're more likely to get fouled at the rim than you are in mid-range.

I'm stuck in my thinking? You in itially posted stats without ANY context to try to make a point, I've consistently made vastly superior arguments and yet you won't budge.

If you think Melo gets the same treatment Durant does then you don't watch Knick games, or you're the one whose biased. Melo was consistently going inside yesterday for example, and going in strong, yet other than the 2 intentional fouls late, he didn't have a free throw.

[Big#50]

It's the timing of the calls. Defenders can't play him like they do everyone. The amount of ***** calls he gets is what people hate. Fair officiating and I believe he is a 21ppg player. Still a good.player, but nowhere close to what he is now.

[tpols]

What do you mean?

Durant is better at getting to the line. Done...

Makes much more sense than thinking the NBA has a conspiracy against Lebron, Kobe, and Melo....

:wtf:
So.. you have no explanation/evidence/anything then.

[DMAVS41]

How exactly is their any bias on my part? And you wanted to break down their FGA. You attempted to do so by giving them equal 3s, I did one better by showing their shots at the rim. I'll grant you that you're more likely to get fouled on 2s than 3s in general, but I don't know how you can argue that you're more likely to get fouled at the rim than you are in mid-range.

I'm stuck in my thinking? You in itially posted stats without ANY context to try to make a point, I've consistently made vastly superior arguments and yet you won't budge.

If you think Melo gets the same treatment Durant does then you don't watch Knick games, or you're the one whose biased. Melo was consistently going inside yesterday for example, and going in strong, yet other than the 2 intentional fouls late, he didn't have a free throw.

It's not really about shots at the rim. Melo takes 22 shots a game. Based on your numbers...that would mean 6 shots at the rim. With something like 4.5 for Durant I'm assuming.

Okay...great. Let's say Melo has a better chance to get fouled on those 6 attempts. But what about the other 16 attempts? So Melo is gaining 1.5 chances there, but losing 2 on threes. And losing another 1.5 on shots between 16-23 feet. So if we break it down like you want to. You are already at 2 shots that should be deducted off Melo's total as he shoots 1.5 more shots at the rim, but shoots 3.5 more shots from 16 feet and beyond.

That is why fga is useless. You keep telling me to watch the games. Well, I watch them and I see Kobe and Melo settling for bad shots far more often than Durant. Factually they shoot more long shots as well...even after accounting for shots at the rim. They are still taking roughly 2 more shots per game from long range.

So what do you think is more likely. That Melo and Kobe take more long shots and settle for, on average, more bad shots per game....and Durant is better at drawing fouls...or;

The league has a conspiracy against the likes of Kobe, Melo, and Lebron

How can you not see the difference in listing fga and then bitching about ft rate without thinking first.

On the evidence alone...you'd have to cut 2 shots a piece off of Kobe and Melo to do an apples to apple comparison and shot attempts...and that doesn't even speak to the total difference in shots where a foul is more or less likely.

But lets just say 2 for a common ground.

you then immediately get 17.9 vs 18.4 vs 20. so that rate you originally posted looks a lot different.

and then i'd ask. how much better is durant at drawing fouls? can you quantify it? like 5% better. 10% better. what do you think?

Then you need to factor in that Durant plays more minutes per game. Small difference, but he's on the court more so more chance he can get fouled and go to the line. .3 more minutes than Kobe and 1.5 more minutes than Melo.

And when you start to add it all up...you start to see that the difference isn't all that you made it out to be and is easily explained by Durant just being better at drawing fouls.

And we also really need to see how many techs and defensive 3 second free throws these guys take. I have no clue who takes the most, but obviously Durant shoots them all for the Thunder because he's the best ft shooter in the league. I know Nash took them a lot of the time for the Lakers.

[DMAVS41]

So.. you have no explanation/evidence/anything then.

What?

You want me to provide evidence that Durant is better at getting to the line? I just did...he shoots more free throws.

What is your evidence that Lebron should be getting to the line more often?

WTF are you talking about?

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's not really about shots at the rim. Melo takes 22 shots a game. Based on your numbers...that would mean 6 shots at the rim. With something like 4.5 for Durant I'm assuming.

5.7 at the rim for Melo, 4.0 for Durant.

Okay...great. Let's say Melo has a better chance to get fouled on those 6 attempts. But what about the other 16 attempts? So Melo is gaining 1.5 chances there, but losing 2 on threes. And losing another 1.5 on shots between 16-23 feet. So if we break it down like you want to. You are already at 2 shots that should be deducted off Melo's total as he shoots 1.5 more shots at the rim, but shoots 3.5 more shots from 16 feet and beyond.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're not much more likely to get fouled shooting a mid-range than you are shooting a 3.


That is why fga is useless. You keep telling me to watch the games. Well, I watch them and I see Kobe and Melo settling for bad shots far more often than Durant. Factually they shoot more long shots as well...even after accounting for shots at the rim. They are still taking roughly 2 more shots per game from long range.

FTA without FGA are useless. Yes, Melo is taking more shots from long range, but he's also taking roughly 2 more shots at the rim.


So what do you think is more likely. That Melo and Kobe take more long shots and settle for, on average, more bad shots per game....and Durant is better at drawing fouls...or;

The league has a conspiracy against the likes of Kobe, Melo, and Lebron

How can you not see the difference in listing fga and then bitching about ft rate without thinking first.

I thought everything through, you're the one who clearly didn't and is ignoring the best evidence while desperately trying to angle and save face. Sorry, but I'm not fooled by it.

As far as Melo, I don't think he's a favorite player of the league, or around the league ever since some of his off the court issues in his first 2 seasons, the brawl in '06 or the trade demand. Plus, he's much stronger physically which doesn't help.

I think lebron has also reached the point where he's so dominant that he gets penalized for it compared to Durant, especially since we've never seen a perimeter player like him physically.


On the evidence alone...you'd have to cut 2 shots a piece off of Kobe and Melo to do an apples to apple comparison and shot attempts...and that doesn't even speak to the total difference in shots where a foul is more or less likely.

Fouls are most likely at the rim, so again, you're dodging the best points as fast as you can.

[tpols]

What?

You want me to provide evidence that Durant is better at getting to the line? I just did...he shoots more free throws.

What is your evidence that Lebron should be getting to the line more often?

WTF are you talking about?
Theres two sides to FTs. The player and the ref. You are very naive if you think certain players arent coddled more than others. It varies from player to player.

Lebron gets fouled more than Durant.. easily. Gets pushed around a lot more. Durant is better at exxagerating contact though.. mostly because he doesnt have a strong frame. And thats why refs call more fouls for him.

[DMAVS41]

5.7 at the rim for Melo, 4.0 for Durant.

Okay...great. Let's say Melo has a better chance to get fouled on those 6 attempts. But what about the other 16 attempts? So Melo is gaining 1.5 chances there, but losing 2 on threes. And losing another 1.5 on shots between 16-23 feet. So if we break it down like you want to. You are already at 2 shots that should be deducted off Melo's total as he shoots 1.5 more shots at the rim, but shoots 3.5 more shots from 16 feet and beyond.

Again, you're not much more likely to get fouled shooting a mid-range than you are shooting a 3.



FTA without FGA are useless. Yes, Melo is taking more shots from long range, but he's also taking roughly 2 more shots at the rim.



I thought everything through, you're the one who clearly didn't and is ignoring the best evidence while desperately trying to angle and save face. Sorry, but I'm not fooled by it.

As far as Melo, I don't think he's a favorite player of the league, or around the league ever since some of his off the court issues in his first 2 seasons, the brawl in '06 or the trade demand. Plus, he's much stronger physically which doesn't help.

I think lebron has also reached the point where he's so dominant that he gets penalized for it compared to Durant, especially since we've never seen a perimeter player like him physically.



Fouls are most likely at the rim, so again, you're dodging the best points as fast as you can.[/QUOTE]

Fouls are more likely to happen at the rim. But they are also less likely to happen from 16 feet out. And the net of that is minus 2 for Melo. Sorry...he takes 4 more shots from 16 feet out per game.

And the shots at the rim are misleading because Melo often goes in out of control and throws the ball up just to get his own miss. But I won't even get into reality.

No, sorry, it's not about fga...it's about how many fga are you taking in which you can or try to draw a foul. Taking all the bad shots Melo and Kobe do...more than makes up for the increased fg attempts.

A player could take 25 shots a game and it wouldn't matter if those extra 7 shots a game were shots in which getting fouled is highly unlikely.

Durant could be more likely to be fouled on long shots...making the difference even bigger there. Not only does he take less, but he's more likely to draw a foul. Same could be said for mid range...etc.

How much better is Durant at drawing fouls? Quantify it. That seems to be missing from your analysis on what Durant does or doesn't deserve.

[DMAVS41]

Theres two sides to FTs. The player and the ref. You are very naive if you think certain players arent coddled more than others. It varies from player to player.

Lebron gets fouled more than Durant.. easily. Gets pushed around a lot more. Durant is better at exxagerating contact though.. mostly because he doesnt have a strong frame. And thats why refs call more fouls for him.

Yes. Durant is better at selling the contact. Totally agree...which is why he's better at getting to the line.

Still confused as to how you think that helps your case.

[Quintilianus]

Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, by a VERY large margin based on ABILITIES.
But he's a mental midget that can't take the role of a real leader

[ShaqAttack3234]

Fouls are more likely to happen at the rim. But they are also less likely to happen from 16 feet out. And the net of that is minus 2 for Melo. Sorry...he takes 4 more shots from 16 feet out per game.

Man, you're thickheaded. They're not all that likely to happen away from the rim in general.


And the shots at the rim are misleading because Melo often goes in out of control and throws the ball up just to get his own miss. But I won't even get into reality.

I've watched almost every Knick game this season, so I know a lot more about how Melo plays than you do. I said before that I've seen him do the Moses thing at times, but a lot of times, he goes up strong, gets hit, and doesn't get a call. He has an excellent second jump, so sometimes he scores anyway, but you're kidding yourself if you think Melo gets the same calls going to the rim as Durant does. Not even close.


No, sorry, it's not about fga...it's about how many fga are you taking in which you can or try to draw a foul. Taking all the bad shots Melo and Kobe do...more than makes up for the increased fg attempts.

This has been covered more accurately with shots at the rim. You're just too dense to admit it.


Durant could be more likely to be fouled on long shots...making the difference even bigger there. Not only does he take less, but he's more likely to draw a foul. Same could be said for mid range...etc.

Actually, mid-range is one of the few areas Melo has done a good job drawing fouls. Especially during his shooting slumps.


How much better is Durant at drawing fouls? Quantify it. That seems to be missing from your analysis on what Durant does or doesn't deserve.

If he was getting to the line at the same rate he did last season, I wouldn't complain. Roughly once every 2.6 FGA instead of once every 1.9. You still haven't explained why Durant himself has seen such an increase despite not shooting any more at the rim, or inside 10 feet in general.

[DMAVS41]

Man, you're thickheaded. They're not all that likely to happen away from the rim in general.



I've watched almost every Knick game this season, so I know a lot more about how Melo plays than you do. I said before that I've seen him do the Moses thing at times, but a lot of times, he goes up strong, gets hit, and doesn't get a call. He has an excellent second jump, so sometimes he scores anyway, but you're kidding yourself if you think Melo gets the same calls going to the rim as Durant does. Not even close.



This has been covered more accurately with shots at the rim. You're just too dense to admit it.



Actually, mid-range is one of the few areas Melo has done a good job drawing fouls. Especially during his shooting slumps.



If he was getting to the line at the same rate he did last season, I wouldn't complain. Roughly once every 2.6 FGA instead of once every 1.9. You still haven't explained why Durant himself has seen such an increase despite not shooting any more at the rim, or inside 10 feet in general.

You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.

I told you that Carmelo has a 1.6 shot attempt advantage at the rim. But he also takes 4 more shots from 16 feet and beyond. That has to factor in as well.

And obviously Durant is drawing fouls all over the place and not just at the rim...so the normal rules don't apply to him.

What you are too dense to comprehend is that even with 6 shots at the rim, you have to account for the other 16. And you have to determine how often Carmelo is trying to get fouled or even in a position to get fouled. Melo takes a lot of threes (2 more than Durant per game)...and doesn't try to draw contact on his jumper as often.

Also, what you are forgetting, is that you don't have to be shooting to get to the line. Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game as well...that needs to be factored in.

Why can't you use basic logic. Even with the 1.6 shots at the rim advantage, you still have to determine how likely each player is to get fouled on the other shots. And...you have to factor in things like minutes played and how often they shoot tech / defensive 3 second free throws.

And then, the kicker, how much better is Durant at drawing fouls. You need to quantify this so we can factor that in. Because even just a 10% difference in ability in this area goes a long way.


Do you have a problem with Kobe taking more free throws or roughly the same amount as carmelo...despite carmelo taking more shots...including more shots at the rim? So Melo takes 1.6 more shots and takes more shots at the rim...yet he shoots less free throws. Do you have an issue with this?

[KG215]

Durant is the best scorer in the NBA, by a VERY large margin based on ABILITIES.
But he's a mental midget that can't take the role of a real leader
:oldlol:

Good one

[bluechox2]

melo wud be putting up 10 more points a game if he got reffed like durant

[Quintilianus]

:oldlol:

Good one
That's a very sad true. Sad because I rooted for him since he came into the NBA, always loved his game even when people were calling him mr. 5/25.
He got so caught up in his stats and trying to be lebron, that he forgot that he's the best scorer in the NBA by a large margin. Of couse he's a guy that doesn't talk much, so naturally a show-off like westbrook who naturally wants to win and doesn't care about anything else eventually takes over as the leader of this team.
I realize you're a Durant fan, I too have very strong appreciation for his game throughout his career, but he's very weak mentally.
On the other hand, his path reminds me of lebron in some ways, so maybe he'll brake out of his weaknesses by meeting someone inferior to him mentally in the playoffs. I don't know who will that be, but it'll probably eventually happen

[KG215]

That's a very sad true. Sad because I rooted for him since he came into the NBA, always loved his game even when people were calling him mr. 5/25.
He got so caught up in his stats and trying to be lebron, that he forgot that he's the best scorer in the NBA by a large margin. Of couse he's a guy that doesn't talk much, so naturally a show-off like westbrook who naturally wants to win and doesn't care about anything else eventually takes over as the leader of this team.
I realize you're a Durant fan, I too have very strong appreciation for his game throughout his career, but he's very weak mentally.
On the other hand, his path reminds me of lebron in some ways, so maybe he'll brake out of his weaknesses by meeting someone inferior to him mentally in the playoffs. I don't know who will that be, but it'll probably eventually happen
No, it's not. And no, he isn't.


melo wud be putting up 10 more points a game if he got reffed like durant
Really? 10 whole more PPG? He'd be averaging 38 PPG if he got reffed the same way as Durant? That's how big the discrepancy is between how Durant is reffed and how Carmelo's reffed?

[Psycho]

No, it's not. And no, he isn't.


Really? 10 whole more PPG? He'd be averaging 38 PPG if he got reffed the same way as Durant? That's how big the discrepancy is between how Durant is reffed and how Carmelo's reffed?

Yes, Durant is a b1tch.

[fsvr54]

forget stats, just watch the games.

It's not about the amount of free throws, it's about fouls being called on the most minimal contacts, not even fouls.

[Sarcastic]

You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.




How can this be quantified without knowing what is going on inside the refs head? This isn't a skill that you can train, unless you consider acting a basketball skill. This is something that comes down to how the refs want to call it that particular day.

[Tking714]

He's one of the best shooters I've ever seen. His other skills are meh but he's realllllllly coordinated

[ShaqAttack3234]

You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.

Because that's an impossible thing to put an exact number on. It would be like saying one player is a better scorer and asking them to put a number on how much better.

If I had to, I'd say the difference between a 2.6 FGA/FTA ratio and a 2.9 FGA/FTA ratio. Around there.


I told you that Carmelo has a 1.6 shot attempt advantage at the rim. But he also takes 4 more shots from 16 feet and beyond. That has to factor in as well.

Not much, or not nearly as much as shots at the rim.


And obviously Durant is drawing fouls all over the place and not just at the rim...so the normal rules don't apply to him.

Again, Melo does a better job drawing fouls on mid-range shots with pump fakes than he does around the rim, relative to how common one is or the other. He did this throughout his shooting slump.


What you are too dense to comprehend is that even with 6 shots at the rim, you have to account for the other 16. And you have to determine how often Carmelo is trying to get fouled or even in a position to get fouled. Melo takes a lot of threes (2 more than Durant per game)...and doesn't try to draw contact on his jumper as often.

You've tried this argument throughout the thread, it didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.


Also, what you are forgetting, is that you don't have to be shooting to get to the line. Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game as well...that needs to be factored in.

Melo is almost always on the court for the later minutes in the quarter when other teams will be in the penalty, and he takes his teams technicals just like Durant does. 1.5 minutes per game won't greatly alter the amount of technicals each player shoots.


Why can't you use basic logic. Even with the 1.6 shots at the rim advantage, you still have to determine how likely each player is to get fouled on the other shots. And...you have to factor in things like minutes played and how often they shoot tech / defensive 3 second free throws.

Again, you're much less likely to get fouled on shots even in mid-range than you are at the rim so you can't pretend this is equal.


And then, the kicker, how much better is Durant at drawing fouls. You need to quantify this so we can factor that in. Because even just a 10% difference in ability in this area goes a long way.

I did about as well as anyone can put a number on such things. But you can't say someone is 10% better at drawing fouls. How would you even come up with something like that? All I know is that Durant gets officiated differently than Melo. I can't remember seeing another player get as many questionable calls as Durant does.


Do you have a problem with Kobe taking more free throws or roughly the same amount as carmelo...despite carmelo taking more shots...including more shots at the rim? So Melo takes 1.6 more shots and takes more shots at the rim...yet he shoots less free throws. Do you have an issue with this?

Not really. Kobe probably has the best pump fake and footwork in the game. Although The difference between Kobe and Melo is actually 1.3 shots at the rim. I would say that Melo is the most disrespected out of the major superstars. It use to be Yao, now it's Melo.

[Cone]

:roll:

[DatAsh]

I actually think Durant goes to the line about as much as he should. Guys like Kobe, Melo, and (especially)Lebron should be going more.


You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.


The margins aren't all that small though. For example, comparing Lebron to Durant, you're looking at a ratio of .388 vs .525. Lebron with Durant's ft rate would put up 1.84 more ppg, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Lebron is probably fouled even more than Durant. Lebron would be putting up 29 ppg if he were getting called the way Durant is. That doesn't seem all that small to me.

[DMAVS41]

Because that's an impossible thing to put an exact number on. It would be like saying one player is a better scorer and asking them to put a number on how much better.

If I had to, I'd say the difference between a 2.6 FGA/FTA ratio and a 2.9 FGA/FTA ratio. Around there.



Not much, or not nearly as much as shots at the rim.



Again, Melo does a better job drawing fouls on mid-range shots with pump fakes than he does around the rim, relative to how common one is or the other. He did this throughout his shooting slump.



You've tried this argument throughout the thread, it didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.



Melo is almost always on the court for the later minutes in the quarter when other teams will be in the penalty, and he takes his teams technicals just like Durant does. 1.5 minutes per game won't greatly alter the amount of technicals each player shoots.



Again, you're much less likely to get fouled on shots even in mid-range than you are at the rim so you can't pretend this is equal.



I did about as well as anyone can put a number on such things. But you can't say someone is 10% better at drawing fouls. How would you even come up with something like that? All I know is that Durant gets officiated differently than Melo. I can't remember seeing another player get as many questionable calls as Durant does.



Not really. Kobe probably has the best pump fake and footwork in the game. Although The difference between Kobe and Melo is actually 1.3 shots at the rim. I would say that Melo is the most disrespected out of the major superstars. It use to be Yao, now it's Melo.

So it all amounts to this.

You think Melo is disrespected. You think Kobe shooting more free throws despite shooting less at the rim and less overall doesn't matter because you think Kobe is great at drawing fouls.

That isn't enough mate. And you don't think any of the evidence to the contrary is acceptable because...well, you don't like it.

Guess what. You are not making any sense. You can't just talk about fga and shots at the rim without understanding if a said player is as good as the other at drawing fouls.

Here are the facts. Melo shoots over 4 more shots from long range a game. Melo also throws the ball wildly at the backboard on drives to get his own tip in. Which does two things;

1. It sometimes prevents from calling a foul because he's out of control
2. It inflates his shots at the rim because he's getting credit for a shot every time he tips it in. He does at least once a game. So that 1.6 shots at the rim logically becomes more like .6 if we are being fair, but of course we aren't because you are so biased

Then we get to Kobe. You have no issue with Kobe vs Melo...yet it is very similar. Why? Because you are biased against Durant...it's so obvious.

In Durant vs Kobe. Kobe shoots 2.3 more long range shots than Durant a game. He shoots .6 more shots at the rim. So that is a 1.7 difference. Kobe only shoots 2.5 more shots overall than Durant. Durant most likely takes more technical free throws as well. The margin is incredibly small...and we haven't even factored in the most important thing...

Durant is better at drawing fouls than Kobe.

You argument is flawed and biased and your refusal to acknowledge that the two guys you keep supporting are probably the two guys in the league that take the worst shots consistently. Durant doesn't settle that much...that is you answer. Those possessions where Kobe and Melo just take a long contested jumper...Durant is attacking and drawing fouls.

But again. What is more likely? That Kobe and Melo settle a little more and that Durant is just noticeably better at drawing fouls? Or that the NBA has a conspiracy against the likes of Melo and Kobe?

Please...

[DMAVS41]

I actually think Durant goes to the line about as much as he should. Guys like Kobe, Melo, and (especially)Lebron should be going more.



The margins aren't all that small though. For example, comparing Lebron to Durant, you're looking at a ratio of .388 vs .525. Lebron with Durant's ft rate would put up 1.84 more ppg, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Lebron is probably fouled even more than Durant. Lebron would be putting up 29 ppg if he were getting called the way Durant is. That doesn't seem all that small to me.

That is simply an argument for Durant being better at drawing fouls. He's called that way because of what he does. You might have a problem with that, but he's clearly doing something that the other players in this thread aren't doing.

And the margins are small. Anyone without huge bias would admit that Kobe and Melo take more bad shots. I just can't believe you people can't see this. Melo takes roughly 4 more shots per game. But how many more shots per game is he taking in which getting fouled is even likely. He already takes 2 more threes per game. We've seen he takes 1.6 more shots at the rim, but we've been over that. He also takes 2 more long jumpers a game. And, as everyone has admitted, he's better at drawing fouls.

So that side of the argument is not putting any context to the fga argument. Just because you shoot more does not mean deserve the same or more free throw attempts as another player.

Harden takes 6 threes a game...and 1 less shot overall than Durant...yet he averages 1 more free throw per game. If I was taking the other side...I'd be throwing my arms up in there bitching about fga and free throw rate for Harden compared to Durant. It's absurd...Harden is just really ****ing good at drawing fouls....way better than the likes of a Melo or Kobe. That is what you morons can't get through your thick skulls.

There is no conspiracy...it's simple. Durant and Harden are just noticeably better at drawing fouls. And when you factor that in...the margins are small.

[Rubio2Gasol]

A well expressed argument

You are wasting your time, I wasted mine not too long ago and many will waste their's in the future.

[ThatsGame]

The part you're missing is LeBron and Melo don't get free throws for using the "moves to get free throws" that players that are "good at getting fouls" use.

Fouls aren't supposed to be something you create by swinging your arms and rushing into players. It's something that is called when OTHER players hit you.

Stop being a ****ing moron.

[DMAVS41]

How can this be quantified without knowing what is going on inside the refs head? This isn't a skill that you can train, unless you consider acting a basketball skill. This is something that comes down to how the refs want to call it that particular day.

Is that supposed to help your side? If it comes down to the refs and how they feel on a particular day...then if said player isn't noticeably better at something...we wouldn't see the results we've seen.

We have Durant consistently getting to the line more often per game. Because it is something he's very good at.

And the fga argument doesn't hold much water because anyone with a bit of objectivity knows that Kobe and Melo settle for bad shots way more often than Durant.

Forget the Melo side of it for a second. What argument does Kobe have? he takes 2.3 more long range shots a game and only .6 more at the rim. He settles for long jumpers often over trying to draw contact. If you stripped it down fairly...you'd get something like 17.9 vs 18.4...and your side already admitted that Durant is better at getting to the line. So on a similar amount of shots...I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for Durant to go to the line a little less than 1 more time per game than Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

The part you're missing is LeBron and Melo don't get free throws for using the "moves to get free throws" that players that are "good at getting fouls" use.

Fouls aren't supposed to be something you create by swinging your arms and rushing into players. It's something that is called when OTHER players hit you.

Stop being a ****ing moron.

That is just a personal bias. Do you feel the same way about Harden?

To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.

Lets talk about the bold. Kobe has taken 149 more shots and 141 less free throws. Okay. Kobe has also taken 67 more threes on the year. And he's taken roughly 100 more shots from 16-23 feet. Kobe has taken roughly 35 more shots at the rim than Durant. We don't know who has taken more techs, but Durant shoots them for his team and Nash shot them for the Lakers often. Durant is on the floor more per game, .3 minutes...but everything, even small things, are factors. And we've already had your side concede that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what would be acceptable to you? I mean...you are getting into those small margins between unacceptable and acceptable. Kobe takes 2.4 more shots per game. Kobe also takes more bad shots per game. Kobe is also worse at drawing fouls. I still don't see the outrage over Durant going to the line less than 1 more time per game given all the evidence.

And honestly that isn't even doing it justice.

[DMAVS41]

Oh...and Shaq. Your argument about Melo shooting more late game free throws.

Durant takes 20 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.
Melo takes 10.5 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.

So, uhhh, no....

Here is my main issue with you. If Durant took 2 more 3's per game...and 1 more long jumper. He'd be taking 21 shots a game and his free throw attempts could conceivably not even go up given the nature of the shots.

And your entire argument would go out the window. Not to mention...I've been agreeing to argue this based on the premise that fga determines fta. Which I don't think is true at all to begin with...there are so many other factors that go into this in addition to fga. So you acting like fga vs fta is the only metric is absurd to begin with. But I've been arguing that way so we'll have somewhat common ground.

[knicksman]

hate the game not the player. Stern wants the league to be soft so these guys are just taking advantage. Just look at harden.

[I.R.Beast]

This board is overran with illogical i**ots... Durants improved handle with his crossover and moves to the rim has aided him in getting to the line more often..he's breaking down defenses and getting to the rim even better this year than last year, you either foul him or get scored on. "Treated like Lebron"...How man fouls is lebron really gonna draw gettin easy fast break dunks and coming off of screens all season long?...Even still he gets BS calls and get away with charging alot.

Whether you guys want to admit it or not Durant is the best scorer in the NBA..spot up, pull up, off the dribble, dribble drive...he can and will score.

[DMAVS41]

This board is overran with illogical i**ots... Durants improved handle with his crossover and moves to the rim has aided him in getting to the line more often..he's breaking down defenses and getting to the rim even better this year than last year, you either foul him or get scored on. "Treated like Lebron"...How man fouls is lebron really gonna draw gettin easy fast break dunks and coming off of screens all season long?...Even still he gets BS calls and get away with charging alot.

Whether you guys want to admit it or not Durant is the best scorer in the NBA..spot up, pull up, off the dribble, dribble drive...he can and will score.

Yes. The notion that free throw attempts are only impacted by field goal attempts is non sense to begin with. But even if that were true...people still can't grasp that Durant takes better shots (doesn't settle) and is just better at drawing fouls.

Oh my god. Melo takes 4 more shots per game. Unfortunately what they don't realize is that Melo is worse at drawing fouls and settles for bad shots way more often

And then nobody can even give their opinion on how much more Durant should be shooting at the line if all things were equal.

So I'll try it that way. Durant, Kobe, and Melo all take 20 shots a game. How many more free throws should Durant shoot per game?

[Element]

Lol dmavs you're a lost cause. Do you have LP? Wait no Fvck LP, just watch the nationally televised OKC games and you'll see it. Durant gets more no or almos no contact fouls than any superstar we've seen recently, while Melo is the modern day AI in terms of ref treatment.

You dont need numbers for this sh.it. KD is an elite foul drawer like every other superstar but the refs bail this kid out on literally every miss he acts shaken up on. You can even see opposing players just look at him in disgust sometimes, as if to say "wtf is this s.hit". Prime example would be a game you as an NBA fan couldnt have possibly missed, Christmas OKC VS Heat. Refs were swallowing his *** from all over the place to make the game close at the end, but then of course Bron came back in, dished out some assists and scored a nasty ass fadeaway right in KD's face to put it away

[dunksby]

So ****in tired of everyone discrediting Durant because he gets to shoot two more FTs, not realizing the majority of throws he gets is due to OKC being in the bonus usually early. You know beside Durant we got this other player who attacks the rim relentlessly all game and averages 7.7FTA a game himself, so it's another major factor.

[MiseryCityTexas]

durant would be the NBA's leading scorer every single year easily if he had a chris paul pass first type player on his team instead of westbrook.

[Random_Guy]

Didnt read through whole thread so sorry if already posted.
IMHO I think it's not the "amount" of freethrows, but rather the "ways" Durant get the freethrows that makes people complain. For a jumpshooter, Durant really does have excessive freethrows, though an argument can be made that because of his frail body structure, physical play does reflect quite well. Pair that up with him getting the benefit of the doubt in most calls, he is averaging a crazy amount of freethrows. It's not his fault that he gets superstar calls, that's just how the league is run, but when talking about superstar calls, its undeniable that Melo and Lebron, who drives much more that Durant, needs to be absolutely destroyed before they can get calls.

This takes nothing away from Durant though. Though I do think that he gets the benefit of the doubt a lot from watching OKC games, which is usually an freethrow fest:facepalm he is still an awesome scorer.

[Element]

The fact that he gets more free throws than Russ doesn't really help his case and gtfo with that frail body s.hit. Did AI get to average 14 FTA (he should've) because he was skinny AND got hit hard? Nope. Had that guy been reffed like KD he would've eclipsed every free throw record in his prime, except for maybe most without a miss

[Random_Guy]

The fact that he gets more free throws than Russ doesn't really help his case and gtfo with that frail body s.hit. Did AI get to average 14 FTA (he should've) because he was skinny AND got hit hard? Nope. Had that guy been reffed like KD he would've eclipsed every free throw record in his prime, except for maybe most without a miss

I also disagree with the frail body argument :cheers: , I'm only mentioning it as a comparison to guys like Melo and Bron who are built like tanks.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So it all amounts to this.

You think Melo is disrespected. You think Kobe shooting more free throws despite shooting less at the rim and less overall doesn't matter because you think Kobe is great at drawing fouls.

Again, you're not using logic. Kobe doesn't get to the line at the same ridiculous rate Durant does, or even close. I pointed out Kobe has the best pump fake and footwork in the game, and for years, he's baited defenders into fouling him on jump shots.


That isn't enough mate. And you don't think any of the evidence to the contrary is acceptable because...well, you don't like it.

If there was some evidence contrary to my opinion that was anywhere near as strong as what I've posted then I'd acknowledge it. But there isn't.


Guess what. You are not making any sense. You can't just talk about fga and shots at the rim without understanding if a said player is as good as the other at drawing fouls.

I've said Durant is better at selling fouls and clearly looks to sell them more. That accounts for some, but not all of the huge disparity. This was true last year when Durant was averaging a far more reasonable 7.6 FTA on 19.7 FGA.


Here are the facts. Melo shoots over 4 more shots from long range a game. Melo also throws the ball wildly at the backboard on drives to get his own tip in. Which does two things;

1. It sometimes prevents from calling a foul because he's out of control
2. It inflates his shots at the rim because he's getting credit for a shot every time he tips it in. He does at least once a game. So that 1.6 shots at the rim logically becomes more like .6 if we are being fair, but of course we aren't because you are so biased

You're assuming Melo intentionally does the Moses thing 1 time per game, and I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. Wouldn't surprise me if he averaged one offensive rebound per game on his own misses, maybe even more, but a lot of the time, it's because he tries to make the first shot and misses it, often because there's contact on his first attempt that would get Durant free throws 99% of the time.


Then we get to Kobe. You have no issue with Kobe vs Melo...yet it is very similar. Why? Because you are biased against Durant...it's so obvious.

Again, Kobe has the best pump fake in the game, and the disparity isn't even close to as big. I have no bias against Durant. I've called him the best scorer in the game and the second best player in the game the last 2 years. I'm just not going to watch the games and pretend he deserves the excessive amount of free throws he gets.


In Durant vs Kobe. Kobe shoots 2.3 more long range shots than Durant a game. He shoots .6 more shots at the rim. So that is a 1.7 difference. Kobe only shoots 2.5 more shots overall than Durant. Durant most likely takes more technical free throws as well. The margin is incredibly small...and we haven't even factored in the most important thing...

The long range shots doesn't make much more of a difference. If you want to we can look at shots 10 feet and in, which is closer with Melo at 7.3 and Durant at 7.0. Even so, Durant still gets to the line at a much higher rate.


Durant is better at drawing fouls than Kobe.

Actually, no, he isn't. He flops, which Kobe doesn't do, but Kobe is definitely better at getting guys off their feet with his fakes, and Kobe is defended every bit as tight on his jump shots as Durant is, and probably gets fouled more on them than anyone in the league.

If you want to talk about biases, everyone on this board knows you're biased against Kobe, and it's obvious in probably 75% of your posts about him.


You argument is flawed and biased and your refusal to acknowledge that the two guys you keep supporting are probably the two guys in the league that take the worst shots consistently. Durant doesn't settle that much...that is you answer. Those possessions where Kobe and Melo just take a long contested jumper...Durant is attacking and drawing fouls.

And you really think that disparity comes on mid-range jumpers? You think more of these fouls are coming there than at the rim? It's obvious what's going on here. You made a simple-minded argument posting just FTA, I provided context, you tried to do the same by eliminating 3s, I did you one better again, but you're too stubborn to admit it


But again. What is more likely? That Kobe and Melo settle a little more and that Durant is just noticeably better at drawing fouls? Or that the NBA has a conspiracy against the likes of Melo and Kobe?

Please...

So you think that Melo and Durant are officiated the same way? Thanks, you've just told me that you don't watch Knick games which explains a lot.

You still haven't tried to explain why Durant's own FTA have increased so much from last year.

It's not Durant getting to the line more than Melo that bothers me, it's the enormous difference, and not just between them. Durant and virtually every other superstar I've seen.

You want to see a real comparison with Lebron and Durant too? Durant averages 17.9 FGA and Lebron averages 18. Virtually the same, yet Durant averages 9.4 FTA while Lebron averages 7.0.

Lebron takes 6.7 shots at the rim per game. That's 2.7 more than the Durant. And you can't even try to your flawed 3 point argument here either because Durant takes 4.2 threes while Lebron takes 3.5.

In this case, Lebron usually doesn't take technicals, but I can tell you that Durant isn't averaging anywhere near 2.4 technicals per game.


Oh...and Shaq. Your argument about Melo shooting more late game free throws.

Durant takes 20 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.
Melo takes 10.5 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.

So, uhhh, no....

Here is my main issue with you. If Durant took 2 more 3's per game...and 1 more long jumper. He'd be taking 21 shots a game and his free throw attempts could conceivably not even go up given the nature of the shots.

And your entire argument would go out the window. Not to mention...I've been agreeing to argue this based on the premise that fga determines fta. Which I don't think is true at all to begin with...there are so many other factors that go into this in addition to fga. So you acting like fga vs fta is the only metric is absurd to begin with. But I've been arguing that way so we'll have somewhat common ground.

I never mentioned anything about free throws in crunch time in particular. I simply stated that Melo is almost always on the court to end quarters in general, meaning all 4. His rests usually come to start the 2nd and to start the 4th. Durant actually often rests the last few minutes of the 1st and last few minutes of the 3rd.

And your argument is still invalid, in this post, I've expanded FGA from at the rim to inside 10 feet in general, and Melo still takes more.

Plus, there's a comparison between Lebron and Durant, and not only does Lebron take far more shots at the rim, but he takes fewer 3s.

[dh144498]

DMAVS going full retard, but it's nothing new. :lol :roll:

[Element]

Damn Shaq you just destroyed every facet of his "argument". Well done sir:applause:

[Greg Oden 50]

overrated & stat paddar :banana:

[DMAVS41]

Again, you're not using logic. Kobe doesn't get to the line at the same ridiculous rate Durant does, or even close. I pointed out Kobe has the best pump fake and footwork in the game, and for years, he's baited defenders into fouling him on jump shots.



If there was some evidence contrary to my opinion that was anywhere near as strong as what I've posted then I'd acknowledge it. But there isn't.



I've said Durant is better at selling fouls and clearly looks to sell them more. That accounts for some, but not all of the huge disparity. This was true last year when Durant was averaging a far more reasonable 7.6 FTA on 19.7 FGA.



You're assuming Melo intentionally does the Moses thing 1 time per game, and I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. Wouldn't surprise me if he averaged one offensive rebound per game on his own misses, maybe even more, but a lot of the time, it's because he tries to make the first shot and misses it, often because there's contact on his first attempt that would get Durant free throws 99% of the time.



Again, Kobe has the best pump fake in the game, and the disparity isn't even close to as big. I have no bias against Durant. I've called him the best scorer in the game and the second best player in the game the last 2 years. I'm just not going to watch the games and pretend he deserves the excessive amount of free throws he gets.



The long range shots doesn't make much more of a difference. If you want to we can look at shots 10 feet and in, which is closer with Melo at 7.3 and Durant at 7.0. Even so, Durant still gets to the line at a much higher rate.



Actually, no, he isn't. He flops, which Kobe doesn't do, but Kobe is definitely better at getting guys off their feet with his fakes, and Kobe is defended every bit as tight on his jump shots as Durant is, and probably gets fouled more on them than anyone in the league.

If you want to talk about biases, everyone on this board knows you're biased against Kobe, and it's obvious in probably 75% of your posts about him.



And you really think that disparity comes on mid-range jumpers? You think more of these fouls are coming there than at the rim? It's obvious what's going on here. You made a simple-minded argument posting just FTA, I provided context, you tried to do the same by eliminating 3s, I did you one better again, but you're too stubborn to admit it



So you think that Melo and Durant are officiated the same way? Thanks, you've just told me that you don't watch Knick games which explains a lot.

You still haven't tried to explain why Durant's own FTA have increased so much from last year.

It's not Durant getting to the line more than Melo that bothers me, it's the enormous difference, and not just between them. Durant and virtually every other superstar I've seen.

You want to see a real comparison with Lebron and Durant too? Durant averages 17.9 FGA and Lebron averages 18. Virtually the same, yet Durant averages 9.4 FTA while Lebron averages 7.0.

Lebron takes 6.7 shots at the rim per game. That's 2.7 more than the Durant. And you can't even try to your flawed 3 point argument here either because Durant takes 4.2 threes while Lebron takes 3.5.

In this case, Lebron usually doesn't take technicals, but I can tell you that Durant isn't averaging anywhere near 2.4 technicals per game.



I never mentioned anything about free throws in crunch time in particular. I simply stated that Melo is almost always on the court to end quarters in general, meaning all 4. His rests usually come to start the 2nd and to start the 4th. Durant actually often rests the last few minutes of the 1st and last few minutes of the 3rd.

And your argument is still invalid, in this post, I've expanded FGA from at the rim to inside 10 feet in general, and Melo still takes more.

Plus, there's a comparison between Lebron and Durant, and not only does Lebron take far more shots at the rim, but he takes fewer 3s.


Your "rate" is solely based on fga. You are assuming that fga is what determines free throw attempts. It is a factor, but not the sole factor. Harden and Durant destroy that theory....unless you are claiming that both of them get special treatment that no other players in the league get.

How do you feel about Harden.

FGA does not solely determine FTA. However, even if it did. Take Kobe vs Durant. Here is what we've determined;

1. Durant is better at drawing fouls.
2. Kobe takes 2.4 more shots a game. I'm saying that Kobe takes at least 2 to 3 bad shots a game that he is very unlikely to get fouled on vs what Durant does. Hence Durant's superior efficiency. Durant doesn't have to take as many bail out shots as Kobe does...partly because his team...and partly because he doesn't chuck as much.

Durant should shoot at a higher rate. You still are avoiding the entire thing. FGA is not the sole factor. Kobe takes more long shots and more bail out shots. Kobe is worse at drawing fouls.

Hence you get a logical conclusion of Durant going to the line roughly .8 more times in the same amount of minutes. You can't just arbitrarily talk about rate when Kobe's field goal attempts in which he can get fouled on are less.

And you certainly can't just claim that Kobe is great at drawing fouls on jump shots like it means anything. We've already determined Durant is better at drawing fouls.

So..more long shots, not as good at drawing fouls. On 3's alone you have to remove 1 shot a game.

It is amazing how stupid people are on here if they think you are "winning" an argument when you are simply defining what free throw rate is based on your own absurd field goal attempt standard...when all the evidence flies in the face of that with Durant and Harden shooting the most in the league on limited attempts.

And even more. Kobe's extra fga are just more long bad shots. If Durant took 3 more shots a game....and those extra 3 were just 2 more long jumpers and 1 more 3. His free throws might not move at all. So what would you think then. That is why Durant is shooting at a higher rate this year. He's cut out some of his bad shots....he's taking 1 less three a game...and if you have watched at all, he's taking less bailout shots and trying to attack instead. Hence you see the difference. What? Crazy how logic and evidence works. Last year those extra 2 shots a game did nothing to impact his free throws because those 2 shots were bad long shots or a three. How can you not see that?

Please answer. Would you have a problem with Durant shooting the exact same amount of free throws if he shots 21 shots a game? Please answer.

As for Melo. It isn't only about where shots come from. But if it was, Melo also takes more from deep. 2 more threes and 2 more long jumpers. So please try to remotely stay even. I will say it again. FGA is not the only factor here. And Durant draws fouls in way that is different than other guys...obviously. That is what you can't figure out. Melo takes 4 more shots a game. And I'd say 3 of them he has no ability to even get fouled because they are bailout shots or threes...as he takes 2 more threes.

Still can't figure it out can you? Durant takes better shots. Less long bailout jumpers and threes...and is better at drawing free throws. And he's on the court more than both of them. And we are still worrying about .8 more trips to the free throw line per game? Seems right in line with everything you've said.

All this comes down to is that you keep saying that Durant is better at drawing fouls...but you aren't factoring that in at all. You also aren't giving any credit to Durant for his superior shot selection and lack of settling. The numbers alone show this. If you removed the "bad shots" that Kobe and Melo take...your fga argument falls apart. You can keep saying it doesn't, and you can mention shots within 10 feet, but that doesn't matter when you already admitted Durant was better at drawing fouls...and you are conveniently ignoring that. If we removed the fat of bad shots and 3's....

17.9 vs 18.4 vs 19

That is what the real fga would look like in reality in terms of when they can get fouled. And for a player that is superior at drawing contact...even on the limited and narrow minded fga vs fta rate....you would get nothing wrong with Durant going to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

Explain Harden...you keep saying..every other superstar you've seen. The two leading free throw shooters take less shots than the other guys. So either the league has a conspiracy against the likes of Lebron, Melo, and Durant....or you are just wrong in your theory. Which one do you think it is?

Stop pretending like you brought context by solely bringing up fga. That is one of many factors in free throw attempts. And again...thank you for not admitting that Kobe and Melo don't take more bad shots. Clear you don't watch any Knicks or Thunder games. Those guys settle way more...hence the much worse efficiency. Crazy how that works.

And we haven't even determined how many tech free throws these guys have shot either. LOL

[DMAVS41]

Oh, I forgot the shots within 10 feet argument.

So you have

7.3 for Melo
7.0 for Durant

But then...how about shots 16 feet and out

11.6 for Melo
8.0 for Durant

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Sorry, those extra 3.6 threes, bad, and bailout shots a game matter. It cuts way down on the fga Melo has in which a foul is reasonable...especially considering how Durant is far superior at drawing fouls on jumpers.

So, no more hiding. How many free throws per game... Not per fga...should Durant be shooting. Please answer. Give us an answer so we know how far off his current total of 9.4 a game is.

And in case you miss it. Please answer the Harden dilemma. Who shots more free throws and less shots than Durant. Not a good look for your fga vs fta rate nonsense.

And this has nothing to do with Kobe. We've been talking about Melo...mainly because your argument holds no water with Kobe. He's only taking 2.4 more shots per game and one of them is a three. And he's clearly worse at drawing fouls at this point in his career...and probably takes the most bad shots in the league. Doesn't shoot all the technicals and has nobody else on his team to take bailout shots...like Westbrook does for Durant. Durant should be going to the line more often and the rate at which he does isn't that big at all when you factor in reality.

[DMAVS41]

And will you at least admit that field goal attempts is not the only factor in determining how many free throws a player should take?

Because if you aren't willing to do that...then this is all pointless.

Melo;

- Plays 1.3 less minutes per game
- Takes more bad shots and long shots
- Isn't as good at drawing fouls
- Most likely shoots less technicals

Just doesn't seem all that crazy that he goes to the line less than 1 more time per game. And this actually why the margins are small. You get two free throws when you go to the line. I'll ask again. Would Durant taking 21 shots....let's say the 3 extra shots are all 3's. Would you still bemoan all of this?

[DatAsh]

The reason FTA/FGA is used is because it's about the best measure we have. It's certainly a much better measure than one's (often biased)opinion.

From the games I watch, it's clear to me that Kobe and Wade are about the best at drawing shooting contact on jumpshots, and amongst the superstars who's games I regularly watch, Lebron and Harden get hacked the most. And therein lies the problem with personal opinion; just look at how much our opinion differs on this subject.


And even more. Kobe's extra fga are just more long bad shots. If Durant took 3 more shots a game....and those extra 3 were just 2 more long jumpers and 1 more 3. His free throws might not move at all. So what would you think then. That is why Durant is shooting at a higher rate this year. He's cut out some of his bad shots....he's taking 1 less three a game...and if you have watched at all, he's taking less bailout shots and trying to attack instead. Hence you see the difference. What? Crazy how logic and evidence works. Last year those extra 2 shots a game did nothing to impact his free throws because those 2 shots were bad long shots or a three. How can you not see that?

This is a slippery slope here. Without evidence to back up these claims, they're all but meaningless, and we certainly shouldn't be trying to make absolute claims such as


"That is why Durant is shooting at a higher rate this year."

or


17.9 vs 18.4 vs 19

That is what the real fga would look like in reality in terms of when they can get fouled.

Without hard evidence, there's simply no way of substantiating claims such as these. For all we know, the circumstances could represent exactly the opposite. "Bad" shots are generally much more well contested, and more contested shots tend to draw more fouls. In all likelihood, Durant's better shot selection - which I agree with - could be working against him in this argument, but without statistical evidence, we simply can't say one way or the other - at least not in this case.

Also, you keep referring to these differences as "small", when they really aren't. 1-3 ppg game differences may be small in the grand scheme of things, but in arguments of generally minuscule margins to begin with, 27/8/7 on 64% vs 30/8/7 on 66% can mean the difference between a top 7-8 peak and a top 5 peak.

[SyRyanYang]

And here I am, thought DMAVS41 was a quality poster.
Guilty as charged

[knicksman]

The reason FTA/FGA is used is because it's about the best measure we have. It's certainly a much better measure than one's (often biased)opinion.

From the games I watch, it's clear to me that Kobe and Wade are about the best at drawing shooting contact on jumpshots, and amongst the superstars who's games I regularly watch, Lebron and Harden get hacked the most. And therein lies the problem with personal opinion; just look at how much our opinion differs on this subject.



This is a slippery slope here. Without evidence to back up these claims, they're all but meaningless, and we certainly shouldn't be trying to make absolute claims such as



or



Without hard evidence, there's simply no way of substantiating claims such as these. For all we know, the circumstances could represent exactly the opposite. "Bad" shots are generally much more well contested, and more contested shots tend to draw more fouls. In all likelihood, Durant's better shot selection - which I agree with - could be working against him in this argument, but without statistical evidence, we simply can't say one way or the other - at least not in this case.

Also, you keep referring to these differences as "small", when they really aren't. 1-3 ppg game differences may be small in the grand scheme of things, but in arguments of generally minuscule margins to begin with, 27/8/7 on 64% vs 30/8/7 on 66% can mean the difference between a top 7-8 peak and a top 5 peak.

Why is FGA a good measure? When youre fouled youre FGA is substracted and so the more you attempt FT, The less FGA you get.

[DatAsh]

Why is FGA a good measure? When youre fouled youre FGA is substracted and so the more you attempt FT, The less FGA you get.

But that's the case for everyone. It isn't exclusive to certain players in particular, though a valid argument could be made for certain players' ability to power through contact and thereby put themselves in more and-1 scenarios.

It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's one of the best we have.

[DMAVS41]

The reason FTA/FGA is used is because it's about the best measure we have. It's certainly a much better measure than one's (often biased)opinion.

From the games I watch, it's clear to me that Kobe and Wade are about the best at drawing shooting contact on jumpshots, and amongst the superstars who's games I regularly watch, Lebron and Harden get hacked the most. And therein lies the problem with personal opinion; just look at how much our opinion differs on this subject.



This is a slippery slope here. Without evidence to back up these claims, they're all but meaningless, and we certainly shouldn't be trying to make absolute claims such as



or



Without hard evidence, there's simply no way of substantiating claims such as these. For all we know, the circumstances could represent exactly the opposite. "Bad" shots are generally much more well contested, and more contested shots tend to draw more fouls. In all likelihood, Durant's better shot selection - which I agree with - could be working against him in this argument, but without statistical evidence, we simply can't say one way or the other - at least not in this case.

Also, you keep referring to these differences as "small", when they really aren't. 1-3 ppg game differences may be small in the grand scheme of things, but in arguments of generally minuscule margins to begin with, 27/8/7 on 64% vs 30/8/7 on 66% can mean the difference between a top 7-8 peak and a top 5 peak.

How many shots you take is a factor...but it's not the sole factor. How can you not see that. You guys are acting like they go hand in hand.

There are so many opinions here. Shaq is claiming that Melo is the most disrespected star in the league and that Kobe is the best at drawing fouls on jump shots.

The difference is small when you consider all the evidence.

I am supposed to ignore that Melo takes 4 more shots per game from 16 feet and out...and clearly settles for tough jumpers more than Durant. And, as I've said, even that is flawed given the evidence of Harden...and Martin when you look at him in years past. How many shots these guys take and where they take them matters...but not nearly as much as how good a player is at drawing fouls and how often they try to draw them. But, you know, the evidence supports my side...so still don't get the point of all of this.

We've already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls. He plays 1.3 more minutes per game. He takes less bad shots. He clearly "tries" to get to the line more than Melo.

For those of you not following. How can you claim that fga vs fta is the best measure when the two players leading the league in fta don't take as many fga as the other guys. Harden and Durant shoot more free throws yet they take less shots. That destroys the theory completely.

I was simply showing that even if you use fga...you have to account for things like long jumpers. Yes, shots at the rim are important as well...but Durant is a little different considering how he draws his fouls. Which is clear to anyone that watches him.

Basically Durant and Harden play to get fouled...and they are very good at it. Pretending otherwise is just silly. We saw this with Kevin Martin. Was the league conspiring in his favor the year he shot 8.4 free throws on 15.8 shots...while shooting 5.7 threes a game????? LOL...you people don't have a ****ing let to stand on.

Based on your conspiracy theory and favoritism nonsense...the league was cheating for Kevin ****ing Martin in 2011.

Certain players are really good at drawing fouls...and some of those players try to do it more than others. Durant, this year, has cut out a couple of his long bad shots a game and made a point to try to get to the line. That is why his "rate" has gone up and why it's perfectly reasonable given all the evidence.

And that is why fga is a factor, but not the sole factor.

[DMAVS41]

But that's the case for everyone; it isn't exclusive to certain players in particular.

It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's one of the best we have.

You don't have to pick and choose what factor you use. You should use all the information. FGA should for sure be used. But we should look into other things as well. Minutes played matter as well. For example;

Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game than Melo. That alone makes up a bit of the difference as Melo averages roughly .204 free throws per minute. So in that extra 1.5 minutes...Durant gains an average of .31 free throw attempts per game.

So if Melo played the same amount of minutes as Durant, he'd be shooting 7.9 free throws. A small difference, but like I've repeatedly said, everything counts.

So you get 7.9 vs 9.4 when you even up the minutes.

Again. So many factors...and acting like fga is the only one is hugely flawed...and made even worse by your side using it in the wrong way to begin with.

[knicksman]

But that's the case for everyone. It isn't exclusive to certain players in particular, though a valid argument could be made for certain players' ability to power through contact and thereby put themselves in more and-1 scenarios.

It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's one of the best we have.

I dont think its a good measure coz as ive said, the more fta you get, the lesser the fga as long as your possessions per game remains the same.

[DatAsh]

I dont think its a good measure coz as ive said, the more fta you get, the lesser the fga as long as your possessions per game remains the same.

You're missing my point.

[DMAVS41]

And here I am, thought DMAVS41 was a quality poster.
Guilty as charged

I question your intelligence if you think that this discussion is somehow evidence to the contrary.

Do you think fga is the sole factor in determining how many free throws a player should shoot?

[DMAVS41]

You're missing my point.

But you just said it's hardly a perfect measure...yet the entire argument for your side is based on it.

And it goes up in smoke when you start talking about other players besides Durant like Harden and Kevin Martin.

Kevin Durant could be taking 21 shots a game this year and averaging the exact same number of free throws...and your argument would amount to nothing because fga vs ft rate would be right in line with everyone else....assuming we don't have to debate that Durant is better at drawing fouls than Melo and Kobe like everyone has agreed to.

And if those shots were 2 more threes (just like Melo) and 1 more long jumper (just like Melo)....you just wouldn't see a change in free throw attempts.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Well his scoring abilities are becoming increasingly masked by obnoxious touch foul calls that significantly aid in his PPG output. So as of this moment, I don't know how good of a scorer he actually is as a player.

I actually think he's a better shooter than he is a scorer. He used to play better off the ball, and he's got that long range. He's essentially Dirk with better handle, and a better finisher / transition game. But I still don't like it when he puts the ball on the floor.

To me he's too tall and long to be playing as far away from the basket as he does. It's annoying. He's 6'11 with a 7 footer's wing span. He should play much closer to the basket.

Hell, his physique bothers me. He's built like a string bean, looks so fragile with these girly narrow shoulders, and an odd thick neck. As seen in the Miami series, or when Artest used to guard him ... he can't take physicality. You bump him and make him uncomfortable before he touches the ball on the perimeter and you can give him MAJOR problems. Takes him right out of his game.

In a more physical league, I wonder what Durant would actually look like when he's not being promoted by the league's refs in order to manufacture another superstar, one with whom they can label as LeBron's equal.

[ThatsGame]

Well his scoring abilities are becoming increasingly masked by obnoxious touch foul calls that significantly aid in his PPG output. So as of this moment, I don't know how good of a scorer he actually is as a player.

I actually think he's a better shooter than he is a scorer. He used to play better off the ball, and he's got that long range. He's essentially Dirk with better handle, and a better finisher / transition game. But I still don't like it when he puts the ball on the floor.

To me he's too tall and long to be playing as far away from the basket as he does. It's annoying. He's built like a string bean, with these girly narrow shoulders, and an odd thick neck. As seen in the Miami series, or when Artest used to guard him ... he can't take physicality. You bump him and make him uncomfortable before he touches the ball on the perimeter and you can give him MAJOR problems. Takes him right out of his game.

In a more physical league, I wonder what Durant would actually look like when he's not being promoted by the league's refs in order to manufacture another superstar, one with whom they can label as LeBron's equal.


Sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in reffing between LeBron and Durant is to get them to become rivals. LeBron already cracked because of unfair reffing against him and he has to sit here and watch Durant get BS calls all day and then get compared to him.

[Psycho]

Getting to the free throw line is a talent. Only disreputable scum cannot appreciate Durant's overwhelming greatness.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference in reffing between LeBron and Durant is to get them to become rivals. LeBron already cracked because of unfair reffing against him and he has to sit here and watch Durant get BS calls all day and then get compared to him.
Don't get it twisted, LeBron complaining like that ... specifically after a loss, on fouls that weren't excessive makes him a bitch. Even a Miami fan should be able to admit that ...

You didn't see MJ, Larry, or Magic crying after losses about fouls. Ones that were much more excessive and violent than the ones on LeBron. Mind you the call he complained about on Hinrich ... he INTIATED the contact barreling into him with his shoulder. The 6 inch shorter, and probably like 80 lbs lighter Hinrich had no choice but to pull him down. By doing tat he helps both of them on the fall.

But yes, I wouldn't doubt all this favortism and bull shit calls Durant gets is possibly either conciously being done to help promote the league, and a potential rival for LeBron. The Kobe v.s. LeBron matchup failed to take flight from 2006 - 2012. All they have left is Durant. Pretty sure the league has given up on propping up or promoting Melo. As seen by the complete disrespect and lack of calls he gets. All while taking much more physical punishment than Durant.

[DMAVS41]

Getting to the free throw line is a talent. Only disreputable scum cannot appreciate Durant's overwhelming greatness.

Bingo to the bold.

And if Durant were...I don't know...20% better at drawing fouls and getting to the line than guys like Melo and Kobe...then it would all make sense.

Even with using fga as the main factor. Put in minutes played and slightly factor in Melo and Kobe settling for more bad shots...and you have reality.

No conspiracy...no crazy statistical anomaly. You simply have a player that decided to shoot less bad shots and try to get to the line as much as possible all year. And why wouldn't he? He shoots 91% from the line.

And, I'm not basing any of my argument on this, but if Durant has taken just 25 more tech free throws...which honestly seems very likely...that would be an extra .3 fta per game that has nothing to do with the game. Before I get flamed...I'm not claiming that...but if it were true...on minutes and techs alone...Melo would see a .6 increase in free throw attempts per game. Which is actually huge when the difference is 1.8 to begin with.

[DatAsh]

How many shots you take is a factor...but it's not the sole factor.


Agreed


How can you not see that.

I can.


We've already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls.

We have? You have. I most certainly have not. In terms of their ability to intentionally draw fouls, where otherwise none would exist, Durant is among the best in the league, though I'd still say guys like Kobe and Wade are better in that regard. The more important measure is how often you actually think they get fouled - intentionally or not. Durant is better at drawing intentional shooting fouls that Harden, but Harden gets fouled more - whistled or not - because his style of play lends itself better to drawing contact. Lebron is the same way in my eyes. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but to me Lebron draws more contact than Durant, despite Durant being better at intentionally drawing it, because his style of play lends itself to him being hacked.


A lot of your argument is that of a strawman; it stems from the assumption that I think fta/fga is the sole criteria for this type of analysis, which is a false assumption.

[DMAVS41]

Agreed



I can.



We have? You have. I most certainly have not. In terms of their ability to intentionally draw fouls, where otherwise none would exist, Durant is among the best in the league, though I'd still say guys like Kobe and Wade are better in that regard. The more important measure is how often you actually think they get fouled - intentionally or not. Durant is better at drawing intentional shooting fouls that Harden, but Harden gets fouled more - whistled or not - because his style of play lends itself better to drawing contact. Lebron is the same way in my eyes. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but to me Lebron draws more contact than Durant, despite Durant being better at intentionally drawing it, because his style of play lends itself to him being hacked.


A lot of your argument is that of a strawman, much of your argument stems from the assumption that I think fta/fga is the sole criteria for this type of analysis, which is a false assumption.

If you don't think Durant is better at drawing fouls then your argument makes more sense than what other people are saying...because everyone else has pretty much agreed Durant is better at drawing fouls.

I think it's just semantics. I'm not saying Durant gets fouled more...I'm saying he does a better job getting to the line. Which is basically just me saying that Durant plays to get fouled intentionally more than guys like Lebron, Melo, and Kobe this year. Which is exactly what you just said. Harden is the exact same way. Kevin Martin was that way in 2011.

And when you combine a player that is very good at drawing fouls to begin with...then chooses to do it more often. FGA just don't matter all that much...hence it's really not anything more than one of many factors in determining free throws.

Durant and Harden this year are perfect evidence for that. Martin in 11 is more evidence for it.

You guys would have way more of a solid point if the difference was bigger and if we hadn't seen similar stuff before. And again, we have a player this year shooting less shots and taking almost 1 more free throw per game than Durant. LOL

[Sarcastic]

How many hours a day do you suppose Durant works on his ability to draw fouls?

[DMAVS41]

And again to Shaq.

When I first posted...I provided exactly the context needed. That in a similar amount of minutes played per game. Durant is getting to the line slightly less than 1 more time per game (as you get 2 free throws per trip)...

What a player does with the time on the court can be many things. You jumped in and went nuts with your fga vs fta rate...acting like that is all that matters. Which, of course, there is no evidence for that. So you took it in that direction saying that.

I could have just of easily responded that all that matters is how many minutes a player plays and what you do on the court in the time is up in the air.

And once you admitted that Durant is better at drawing fouls...the debate, for all intensive purposes, is over....and then you refused to quantify how much better he is. All you did was say how much better he is according to your hugely flawed fta vs fga rate. Which goes out the window because Kobe's rate is higher than Melo's...yet Kobe takes less shots and Melo shoots more shots at the rim. But you are okay with that....LOL

And you accuse me of being biased? Makes non sense.

And then when I explained that fga alone is not a huge factor...and that you'd have to look at certain types of shots...you just ignore that and focus on the "at rim" stuff. Which, for arguments sake, I conceded. Even though just shooting at the rim does not mean you are better at getting fouled. Durant could draw more fouls at the rim despite shooting less shots...in fact, that scenario is more likely than you think because you don't get credited with a shot when you are fouled. See...see how many flaws there are in your thinking?

But even if we agree to go off your flawed rate...you still get a likely scenario in which Durant takes 3 more shots a game (2 threes and 1 long jumper) to get his total to 21...and he adds no more free throws per game. Because we all know that Melo takes at least 3 shots a game like that...in which he's just simply never getting fouled on...or at least it is so rare it doesn't even matter stats wise. All you are doing is rewarding Melo and Kobe for taking 2 to 3 more bad shots per game that have no impact on free throw shooting overall.

So again. If Durant was take 3 more long shots a game and shooting the same amount of free throws...would you still have an issue? Because if you did, then your fga vs fta rate argument goes up in smoke.

Also, the Thunder take 27.3 free throws a game. The Knicks take 21.5 free throws per game. That is a big enough gap to logically conclude that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus. How much does that impact Durant getting to the line. Does he get fouled once every 3 games in the bonus and go to the line more often than Melo? Think about that. If it happened only one more time every 3 games. That is roughly .7 more free throws per game off the bonus alone.

But lets say it doesn't happen that often. Lets say it's only .5 per game. So;

On minutes you see a .3 difference. Just a fact. So the difference goes from 1.8 to 1.5.

Now, if Durant has shot more techs, even a small amount, and he's fouled more often in the bonus...that 1.5 difference could easily drop to .8....and this is before we've talked about anything actually relevant to the players.

See why I said the margins are small?

So I ask again. Why is this an issue. We have a player that plays more minutes, likely shoots more techs, plays on a team that spends more time in the bonus, takes less bad shots, and the KICKER....is better at drawing fouls.

And it is absurd for him to shoot 1.8 more free throws per game?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Your "rate" is solely based on fga. You are assuming that fga is what determines free throw attempts. It is a factor, but not the sole factor. Harden and Durant destroy that theory....unless you are claiming that both of them get special treatment that no other players in the league get

Obviously it's not the only factor, but FTA can't be posted as proof of anything without them. And in 20 years watching the NBA I've never seen a player get the treatment Durant does.


How do you feel about Harden.

Well, Harden pretty much either shoots 3s or goes to the rim. 31.3% of his shots come at the rim, significantly higher than either Durant or Melo. And he also plays on the fastest pace team in the league which helps with easy baskets. However, he is a notorious flopper, so I'd say he gets too much credit with the refs as well.


And you certainly can't just claim that Kobe is great at drawing fouls on jump shots like it means anything. We've already determined Durant is better at drawing fouls.

Again, Kobe is the best in the league at drawing fouls on jumpers. Best I've seen in a long time. He's guarded as tight as anyone, and he has the best pump fake in the game. Only guys like Reggie kicking their legs out come to mind.


Please answer. Would you have a problem with Durant shooting the exact same amount of free throws if he shots 21 shots a game? Please answer.

Depends on what I saw watching the games. Chances are 9.4 FTA would be the upper limit for 21 FGA. If he was primarily going to the rim for those extra shots then it wouldn't be so bad.


Oh, I forgot the shots within 10 feet argument.

So you have

7.3 for Melo
7.0 for Durant

But then...how about shots 16 feet and out

11.6 for Melo
8.0 for Durant

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

:oldlol: Who cares? Outside of 10 feet, you're talking jump shots anyway. You're not that much more likely to get fouled than you are on a 3, especially when you consider late close outs. But this doesn't necessarily help your argument either. I see Melo get fouled a decent amount on turnaround jumpers outside of 10 feet, and I just saw him draw a foul on a mid-range shot tonight during his hot streak in the 3rd quarter.

You keep claiming I tried arguing FGA are the ONLY thing that matters and stuck to it. That's simply false. I got more in-depth with shots at the rim(which is easily the place you'll be fouled most frequently) and even expanded it to 10 feet and in.

You're the one whose grasping at straws with 3s and other nonsense. Fact is, Durant attempts almost 2 more FTA while shooting considerably less at the rim and less inside of 10 feet in general.

[DMAVS41]

Obviously it's not the only factor, but FTA can't be posted as proof of anything without them. And in 20 years watching the NBA I've never seen a player get the treatment Durant does.



Well, Harden pretty much either shoots 3s or goes to the rim. 31.3% of his shots come at the rim, significantly higher than either Durant or Melo. And he also plays on the fastest pace team in the league which helps with easy baskets. However, he is a notorious flopper, so I'd say he gets too much credit with the refs as well.



Again, Kobe is the best in the league at drawing fouls on jumpers. Best I've seen in a long time. He's guarded as tight as anyone, and he has the best pump fake in the game. Only guys like Reggie kicking their legs out come to mind.



Depends on what I saw watching the games. Chances are 9.4 FTA would be the upper limit for 21 FGA. If he was primarily going to the rim for those extra shots then it wouldn't be so bad.



:oldlol: Who cares? Outside of 10 feet, you're talking jump shots anyway. You're not that much more likely to get fouled than you are on a 3, especially when you consider late close outs. But this doesn't necessarily help your argument either. I see Melo get fouled a decent amount on turnaround jumpers outside of 10 feet, and I just saw him draw a foul on a mid-range shot tonight during his hot streak in the 3rd quarter.

You keep claiming I tried arguing FGA are the ONLY thing that matters and stuck to it. That's simply false. I got more in-depth with shots at the rim(which is easily the place you'll be fouled most frequently) and even expanded it to 10 feet and in.

You're the one whose grasping at straws with 3s and other nonsense. Fact is, Durant attempts almost 2 more FTA while shooting considerably less at the rim and less inside of 10 feet in general.


You keep pretending that the rim is the only way to get to the foul line. You keep pretending that Durant isn't excellent at drawing fouls all over the court.

You are on to something about the fact that Harden is also excellent at drawing contact. But you shoot yourself in the foot using the at rim shots for Harden because, as you said, he gets more easy baskets.

It matters more how good these players are at drawing fouls. Kevin Martin in 2011 shot a much higher rate of free throws than Durant is this year. It is hardly unheard of.

If Melo and Durant played the same amount of mpg this year. The difference in fta would be 1.5 per game. I'm asking you...what should that difference be according to you. Please answer...


You are exactly right about the outside of 10 feet. You just said that they shoot a comparable amount inside of 10 feet. So most of Melo's extra attempts come on shots that aren't likely to draw a foul. You are making my point for me you moron....especially after you conceded Durant is better at getting fouled. So if he's better at getting fouled and he takes less long shots...that does matter. Which, again, is why Melo taking 4 shots more per game from 16 feet and out is important to your fga theory.

[DMAVS41]

I'll ask it to everyone in the thread. Once they are even in mpg. The difference between Melo and Durant is 1.5 free throws per game.

What should the difference be according to you guys?

[ShaqAttack3234]

You keep pretending that the rim is the only way to get to the foul line. You keep pretending that Durant isn't excellent at drawing fouls all over the court.

Actually, you're implying this yourself by harping on long range shots. You just contradict yourself by bringing up where the shots occur.


You are on to something about the fact that Harden is also excellent at drawing contact. But you shoot yourself in the foot using the at rim shots for Harden because, as you said, he gets more easy baskets.

At the rim. Harden doesn't even have a mid-range game and takes over 6 thees. A higher percentage of his shots are 3s than Melo. So it's you shooting yourself in the foot. The Harden example only suggests that shots at the rim are the best way to go when breaking down FTA.


It matters more how good these players are at drawing fouls. Kevin Martin in 2011 shot a much higher rate of free throws than Durant is this year. It is hardly unheard of.

Martin is another notorious flopper.


If Melo and Durant played the same amount of mpg this year. The difference in fta would be 1.5 per game. I'm asking you...what should that difference be according to you. Please answer...

7-8 FTA per game for Durant would probably be ok.

[DMAVS41]

Actually, you're implying this yourself by harping on long range shots. You just contradict yourself by bringing up where the shots occur.



At the rim. Harden doesn't even have a mid-range game and takes over 6 thees. A higher percentage of his shots are 3s than Melo. So it's you shooting yourself in the foot. The Harden example only suggests that shots at the rim are the best way to go when breaking down FTA.



Martin is another notorious flopper.



7-8 FTA per game for Durant would probably be ok.

No. I'm saying that there are certain shots they have very little chance to get fouled on. Melo takes more of them. And I never said fga was nearly as big a factor as you. I'm just pointing out that a certain number of the fga for Melo and Kobe simply have very little chance to get fouled on. Just like Harden with his threes. Martin shot 3.2 shots at the rim in 11 and his free throws were off the charts...LOL

Ok. We'll go with 8 free throws considering that is what Melo would average playing the same amount of minutes. Since you already conceded that Durant should get to the line more than Melo...I find it a little disingenuous to claim only a .1 difference.

Now. How much more often do you think Durant gets to the line simply by his team being in the bonus more often. The thunder shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr than the Knicks and are likely in the bonus more often.

As I said before, even if Durant only got to the line 1 more time every 3 games off of this...that would be a .7 difference.

So on minutes and that alone...I get Durant down from 9.4 to 8.4. And that isn't even taking into account techs...but we can ignore that.

So you are left with 7.6 for Melo and 8.4 for Durant on things the players don't do. Minutes and Durant having an advantage for being on a team that draws more fouls.

Is 8.4 too high for you still?

[DMAVS41]

Also, I'm confused as to how shots at the rim and fga are the best indicators here when;

Melo shoots more shots at the rim and shoots 5.1 shots more than Harden...yet Harden shoots 2.5 more free throws per game.

Melo shoots more shots at the rim than Kobe and shoots 1.6 more shots...yet Kobe takes more free throws.

And Kevin Martin in 11 just destroys that notion with very few shots at the rim and an inordinate amount of free throws on very few fga.

You might not like it, but Harden and Durant have an actual skill that allows them to get to the line more often....and I don't think it is all that related to shots at the rim or overall fga. I think it's just something they intentionally try to do...and happen to be very good at it.

[Element]

Okay DMAVS we can all see the light now. Durant's got that "actual skill" to get fouled without contact. I wonder how many hours he spends at the gym, trying to miss a jumper with a guy within 2 feet of him, while flailing his arms and falling to the ground. And then proceeding to stare at the wall until someone plays his favorite noise, a sharp and forceful whistle.

[Is He Ill]

Lebron has averaged more than 10 fta per game 3 times during his career. That doesn't mean he wasn't a good scorer. KD averaged 28 ppg last season on 7.5 fta per game. KD is clearly a great scorer, he's proven it throughout his nba career, as you pointed out. It's only Lebron lovers that say this type of sh*t.

[DMAVS41]

Okay DMAVS we can all see the light now. Durant's got that "actual skill" to get fouled without contact. I wonder how many hours he spends at the gym, trying to miss a jumper with a guy within 2 feet of him, while flailing his arms and falling to the ground. And then proceeding to stare at the wall until someone plays his favorite noise, a sharp and forceful whistle.

I'm not saying he doesn't get BS calls, but every star does...including both Kobe and Melo.

The difference in going to the line less than 1 more time per game is not enough to warrant the outrage expressed in this thread. Especially when half of you have conceded that Durant is better at drawing fouls.

We've determined that fga is certainly a factor, but not the only one. We've determined that shots at the rim are a factor, but hardly a big one. We've determined that Kobe and Melo settle for more bad shots in which drawing a foul is less likely.

In terms of Durant vs Melo...Durant's team shoots 1.5 more free throws per qtr and that leads to more time in the bonus...which could dramatically impact Durant's free throw attempts just off being on that team. You could easily see Durant and Melo switch places see Durant shoot 1 less free throw per game and Melo shoot one more free throw per game.

My point from the very beginning was simple. Durant is very good at drawing fouls...certainly better than Melo and Kobe. And that a difference of less than 1 trip to the line per game is not a big enough difference to warrant the bitching about his free throws.

On the average game, he doesn't even go to the free throw line a full 1 time more than Kobe or Melo.

Even if my side were to concede everything...it still means nothing. Take away 2 ppg from Durant and he's still as good as he is now.

So the notion that he is what he is off of free throws is non sense to begin with. Let alone the fact that his more fta is easily explained using logic....rather than proposing a league wide conspiracy in favor of Harden and Durant and against Melo and Kobe (two stars that play for the two biggest teams in the league)....

[Element]

The thing is just that yeah, while every star gets BS calls (though not really Melo) or no calls (Lebron on defense hmm), KD gets more of them than ANYONE else we've seen recently, and at a much higher rate, too. A BS call is not quantifiable with numbers. Only when you watch him do his don't-get-hit-stare-at-ref routine you can see it. He gets whistles even young LeBron or 11 Wade wouldn't have gotten. 06 Finals Wade would be very proud of KD today, while everyone else would just shake their heads...it's awful to watch. Again, the key word is WATCHING. Watch him play, you'll see it, no need for any data

[DMAVS41]

The thing is just that yeah, while every star gets BS calls (though not really Melo) or no calls (Lebron on defense hmm), KD gets more of them than ANYONE else we've seen recently, and at a much higher rate, too. A BS call is not quantifiable with numbers. Only when you watch him do his don't-get-hit-stare-at-ref routine you can see it. He gets whistles even young LeBron or 11 Wade wouldn't have gotten. 06 Finals Wade would be very proud of KD today, while everyone else would just shake their heads...it's awful to watch. Again, the key word is WATCHING. Watch him play, you'll see it, no need for any data

But that is just your opinion...and quite frankly just confirmation bias.

Now, if you are taking the stance that Durant is not good at drawing fouls and just receives an inordinate amount of BS calls...then at least you would have something to stand on.

But if you, like the others, concede that he's better at drawing fouls to begin with. Then a comparison with him and Melo (the guy you say gets no star treatment) looks rather similar. There is a 1.8 difference per game. .3 is removed when you have them play the same minutes. It is hard to quantify, but Durant most likely shoots more techs. The Thunder spend more time in the bonus and shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr. So that 1.8 difference quickly becomes under 1 without even talking about what they do as players...that is just on circumstances alone.

So again. Either the league unfairly gives Durant many more calls than other stars...or he's actually doing something that leads to those calls. I tend to think he's doing something considering it makes no sense to prop up a player or team like the Thunder over the Lakers or Knicks and their stars.

And certainly doesn't make sense to prop up Harden...which you would have to argue as well if you think Durant gets BS star treatment. And you'd have to include Martin when he was taking an insane amount of free throws based on the metrics presented in this thread.

Seems like everyones issue is with the league and not Durant. How can you blame Durant if what he's doing is working?

[Sarcastic]

Also, I'm confused as to how shots at the rim and fga are the best indicators here when;

Melo shoots more shots at the rim and shoots 5.1 shots more than Harden...yet Harden shoots 2.5 more free throws per game.

Melo shoots more shots at the rim than Kobe and shoots 1.6 more shots...yet Kobe takes more free throws.

And Kevin Martin in 11 just destroys that notion with very few shots at the rim and an inordinate amount of free throws on very few fga.

You might not like it, but Harden and Durant have an actual skill that allows them to get to the line more often....and I don't think it is all that related to shots at the rim or overall fga. I think it's just something they intentionally try to do...and happen to be very good at it.


That tells you how bad Melo is reffed. He should be taking much more free throws than he is given.

[toooo]

Every superstar gets superstar fouls, but KD's are ridiculous. Anyone can see it. Some of you are in denial clearly.

I used to really enjoy watching KD play but it has gone downhill this season. I don't think it is entertaining to watch someone shoot free throws. All he has to do is flail his arms a bit and it's a foul.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No. I'm saying that there are certain shots they have very little chance to get fouled on. Melo takes more of them. And I never said fga was nearly as big a factor as you. I'm just pointing out that a certain number of the fga for Melo and Kobe simply have very little chance to get fouled on. Just like Harden with his threes. Martin shot 3.2 shots at the rim in 11 and his free throws were off the charts...LOL

I watch Melo and Durant more than I watched Martin so it's difficult to make a completely fair comparison, but I do know that Martin for years has been known as one of the most notorious floppers. On his mid-range shots, he constantly leans his body in trying to draw fouls, is quite thin which helps sell contact as well and has that awkward shot.

I don't think players like that often deserve all of their free throws either, btw.


Now. How much more often do you think Durant gets to the line simply by his team being in the bonus more often. The thunder shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr than the Knicks and are likely in the bonus more often.

As I said before, even if Durant only got to the line 1 more time every 3 games off of this...that would be a .7 difference.

So on minutes and that alone...I get Durant down from 9.4 to 8.4. And that isn't even taking into account techs...but we can ignore that.

So you are left with 7.6 for Melo and 8.4 for Durant on things the players don't do. Minutes and Durant having an advantage for being on a team that draws more fouls.

Is 8.4 too high for you still?

Except we have no idea how much being in the penalty has added to either of their numbers. Watching the games, I suspect Durant draws more fouls that way, but as I said, Melo with his typical rest is playing at the end of all 4 quarters. Durant gets his rests the last few minutes of the 1st and 3rd, taking out some situations where his opponent would more likely be in the penalty.

8.4 would be on the high side, yes.

You still haven't explained why Durant's OWN FTA have jumped almost 2 per game from 7.6 to 9.4.


Also, I'm confused as to how shots at the rim and fga are the best indicators here when;

Melo shoots more shots at the rim and shoots 5.1 shots more than Harden...yet Harden shoots 2.5 more free throws per game.

Melo shoots more shots at the rim than Kobe and shoots 1.6 more shots...yet Kobe takes more free throws.

And Kevin Martin in 11 just destroys that notion with very few shots at the rim and an inordinate amount of free throws on very few fga.

You might not like it, but Harden and Durant have an actual skill that allows them to get to the line more often....and I don't think it is all that related to shots at the rim or overall fga. I think it's just something they intentionally try to do...and happen to be very good at it.

I think Harden does get more credit than he should for his flops. I said that before. So I never said he deserves all the FTA he gets either. And as I said, he plays on the fastest paced team in the league and transition/semi-transition opportunities often result in fouls. Melo doesn't get many of these since the Knicks don't run, and when they are in transition, often look for open 3s.

It's not just the number with Durant either. Again, I see him get calls with little to no contact, pretty much if he twists his body awkwardly and misses a shot, hell, sometimes when he makes it. While I see Melo often go up strong, get contact and no call. Calls that Durant will literally get almost every time.

There's no question in my mind just from watching them play. I don't believe in league conspiracies, I think it may have more to do with Melo's reputation in addition to the refs rewarding Durant too much for his own flopping, combined with his weaker frame and just how unusual he looks with his length, especially when his shot is contested.

[DMAVS41]

I watch Melo and Durant more than I watched Martin so it's difficult to make a completely fair comparison, but I do know that Martin for years has been known as one of the most notorious floppers. On his mid-range shots, he constantly leans his body in trying to draw fouls, is quite thin which helps sell contact as well and has that awkward shot.

I don't think players like that often deserve all of their free throws either, btw.



Except we have no idea how much being in the penalty has added to either of their numbers. Watching the games, I suspect Durant draws more fouls that way, but as I said, Melo with his typical rest is playing at the end of all 4 quarters. Durant gets his rests the last few minutes of the 1st and 3rd, taking out some situations where his opponent would more likely be in the penalty.

8.4 would be on the high side, yes.

You still haven't explained why Durant's OWN FTA have jumped almost 2 per game from 7.6 to 9.4.



I think Harden does get more credit than he should for his flops. I said that before. So I never said he deserves all the FTA he gets either. And as I said, he plays on the fastest paced team in the league and transition/semi-transition opportunities often result in fouls. Melo doesn't get many of these since the Knicks don't run, and when they are in transition, often look for open 3s.

It's not just the number with Durant either. Again, I see him get calls with little to no contact, pretty much if he twists his body awkwardly and misses a shot, hell, sometimes when he makes it. While I see Melo often go up strong, get contact and no call. Calls that Durant will literally get almost every time.

There's no question in my mind just from watching them play. I don't believe in league conspiracies, I think it may have more to do with Melo's reputation in addition to the refs rewarding Durant too much for his own flopping, combined with his weaker frame and just how unusual he looks with his length, especially when his shot is contested.


I understand all that and I don't think really any of your post refutes what I'm saying. In fact, I agree with a lot of it. Our difference is essentially that you don't think Durant deserves it...while I think he has a skill/ability that gets him to the line more often. Really, you do to, you just don't like it.

Durant has jumped up his free throws this year because he's trying to get to the line more. It's obvious watching him play. He's cut down on long jumpers and threes....he's taking 1 less three and 1 less long jumper per game. So his fga are really the same in terms of your fga vs fta rate theory. He's just removed two bad shots a game. But the main thing is that he's trying to get to the line more. That is the difference between Harden/Durant and Melo/Kobe...the first pairing plays to get fouled more often. I think we can all agree on that...and it's something that Durant, at least imo, has been trying to do all year to become more efficient...and he has. So I don't think it's crazy to see a player go to the line roughly 1 more time per game when said player is trying to do that.

I didn't say I could prove anything. I said that logic leads you to a few things;

Minutes evened up takes Melo up .3 fta per game
The bonus thing has some impact. We don't know how much, but it definitely matters that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus and shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr....
Techs matter. Who knows how much, but even if it were just 20 or 25 extra a year...that makes up .3 per game roughly

So, my point, is that it's a marginal difference...which you claimed otherwise solely based on fga. That was my beef. Even if you conservatively take the above into account. You are going from a 1.8 difference to 1.0 difference per game...and that has nothing to do with the players...just situations.

Then you said that Durant was better at drawing fouls. That is why I asked how much better. Because if he's 20 percent better...that could easily lead to an extra free throw or two a game.

So if you put them in similar team situations and you'd see roughly a 1 free throw difference per game...and Durant is better. I don't see the big deal. And that is just Melo. Kobe shoots 2 less shots per game than melo...so the margins are even smaller on that comparison.

If you went solely by fga...then Durant would be shooting at a much higher rate, but that metric is merely one of many factors and you treated it as the only one...or at least the main one. And the evidence just doesn't show that. Just like shots at the rim...they matter, but not nearly as much as you say given the evidence.

How is 8.4 still excessive? That would mean Durant goes to the line .4 more times a game than Melo. If you admit Durant is better at getting to the line...I don't see how a mere .8 difference on free throws is that big of a deal.

But honestly...the whole fga thing skewed the debate.

Here is the simple truth that honestly doesn't need much context. In the same number of minutes played per game. Durant shoots about 1.5 more free throws per game. Which is exactly within the normal range for a player you claim is better at getting to the line and, in my opinion, plays to get to the line more than Melo does.

Factor in things like techs and the bonus...and you shrink the number further.

Now, if you don't think Durant is better at getting to the line...then you would have more of reason to take your position. But it seemed to me that you agreed he was and just thought he got there too often based on a fga vs fta rate that is inherently flawed and missing way too much to solely go by.

And I never said Durant doesn't get the benefit of some calls for his frame and all the things you said. All of those things go into making him better at getting to the line. He uses them to his advantage. That is like saying Lebron dunks so often because of his size and strength...well...yes...he uses what he has to his advantage. Durant is tall, long, and skinny...and doesn't absorb contact the same way Melo does. And he combines all of that with selling calls more often and better.

So I'm stuck still being confused. Said player plays more minutes, shoots more techs, his team is in the bonus more often, tries to get to the line more often, and is better at selling calls...and it is unreasonable for said player to take roughly .9 more trips to the line per game?

I don't see the big deal. You watch any Thunder or Knicks game....and you are going to see Durant on the court 1.5 more minutes per game...and watch him take 1.8 more free throws per game. Which is going to the line .9 more times per game on average. That just isn't a big enough gap to warrant the outrage. Remove the extra free throws and all you would see is Durant taking an extra shot or two a game. His ppg would stay the same and his fg% might drop from like 50.6 to like 50.3. So I just don't see the issue. The only time this really would be a problem would be if you thought Durant should only be shooting like 6 free throws a game. But you think he should be shooting, i'm assuming, around 8 a game.

And that was the point of this thread. Is Durant only a good scorer because of his fta. If Durant and Melo shot the same percentage from the line, Durant would be getting 1.6 more ppg than Melo from the line.

[DatAsh]

Minutes evened up takes Melo up .3 fta per game


It also takes him up another fga per game. The ratio remains the same, which is a more indicative stat than just raw fta.


In the same number of minutes played per game. Durant shoots about 1.5 more free throws per game.

Why are you so open to the idea of equalizing minutes, and yet so opposed to the idea of equalizing shot attempts? Equalizing shot attempts is a lot more meaningful.


Durant is tall, long, and skinny...and doesn't absorb contact the same way Melo does.

For me personally, this is the biggest factor I see in guys like Lebron and Anthony not really getting the calls they should. Lebron, and to a lesser extent, Anthony, are very good at powering through contact at the rim and still putting up a decent shot.


Remove the extra free throws and all you would see is Durant taking an extra shot or two a game. His ppg would stay the same and his fg% might drop from like 50.6 to like 50.3.

Durant is averaging 28.3 on 64.4%. At Anthony's foul rate he'd be at 25.4 on 61.9%. If you account for the extra (approximate)1.43 possessions, you're looking at 26.2 on 59.7%.

*On an unrelated note, why are we still using approximated TS% when we seemingly have the play by play data to get a more accurate figure?


Is Durant only a good scorer because of his fta.
Of course not. He's one of the best scorers I've ever seen.

[DMAVS41]

It also takes him up another fga per game. The ratio remains the same, which is a more indicative stat than just raw fta.



Why are you so open to the idea of equalizing minutes, and yet so opposed to the idea of equalizing shot attempts? Equalizing shot attempts is a lot more meaningful.



For me personally, this is the biggest factor I see in guys like Lebron and Anthony not really getting the calls they should. Lebron, and to a lesser extent, Anthony, are very good at powering through contact at the rim and still putting up a decent shot.



Durant is averaging 28.3 on 64.4%. At Anthony's foul rate he'd be at 25.4 on 61.9%. If you account for the extra (approximate)1.43 possessions, you're looking at 26.2 on 59.7%.

*On an unrelated note, why are we still using approximated TS% when we seemingly have the play by play data to get a more accurate figure?


Of course not. He's one of the best scorers I've ever seen.

Simple. Minutes should be equal...what you do with the time on the court is up in the air. FGA do not equal fta. The two leaders in free throw attempts this year take much less fga than Melo. It is a factor, but it doesn't mean enough.

Minutes played should be even. That is just common sense.

My god people. Melo takes 4 more shots per game from 16 feet and beyond. Stop acting like those matter at all. Those are just more bad shots that Durant has chosen not to take. Instead, Durant tries to get fouled on possessions in which Melo is setting for a long jumper. That is why Durant's free throws are higher and his fga are lower. Tries to get fouled more, better at getting fouled, settles for less bad shots.

1.5 more free throws per game on even time on the court is just not nearly enough to warrant the bitching. And that is before we even talk about techs and the extra 1.5 free throws the thunder take per qtr...

[I.R.Beast]

Yes. The notion that free throw attempts are only impacted by field goal attempts is non sense to begin with. But even if that were true...people still can't grasp that Durant takes better shots (doesn't settle) and is just better at drawing fouls.

Oh my god. Melo takes 4 more shots per game. Unfortunately what they don't realize is that Melo is worse at drawing fouls and settles for bad shots way more often

And then nobody can even give their opinion on how much more Durant should be shooting at the line if all things were equal.

So I'll try it that way. Durant, Kobe, and Melo all take 20 shots a game. How many more free throws should Durant shoot per game?


D Mavs...I wish i could just keep my mouth closed about sports but i can't help. If people would apply the same logic that they do in everyday life to basketball then everyone would see things much clearer instead of the distorted view i see fans on this board have. Players fans are the worst they are usually the ones that lack objectivity of any kind.

[TonyMontana]

If teams were allowed to be physical with Durant like they are with LeBron he would be hindered greatly.

Durant is just such a scrawny twig that any contact you make with him looks excessive when in reality it's just because he's so frail.

[NumberSix]

Every superstar gets superstar fouls, but KD's are ridiculous. Anyone can see it. Some of you are in denial clearly.

I used to really enjoy watching KD play but it has gone downhill this season. I don't think it is entertaining to watch someone shoot free throws. All he has to do is flail his arms a bit and it's a foul.
Remember the Kobe foul at the end of the Kings game where nobody even touched him? People went freaking crazy about that. That's not unusual at all by KD standards. I constantly see him just dribbling near the top of the key and the whistle blows out of the blue. I'm like "what the hell did I miss?". When they show the replay, there was literally nothing. I'm absolutely lost as to why they randomly blowed their whistle.

My biggest problem with OKC is that the refs make it VERY clear that the opposing team is NOT going to be allowed to play the same defense as hacking-ass OKC.

[Djahjaga]

Remember the Kobe foul at the end of the Kings game where nobody even touched him? People went freaking crazy about that. That's not unusual at all by KD standards. I constantly see him just dribbling near the top of the key and the whistle blows out of the blue. I'm like "what the hell did I miss?". When they show the replay, there was literally nothing. I'm absolutely lost as to why they randomly blowed their whistle.

My biggest problem with OKC is that the refs make it VERY clear that the opposing team is NOT going to be allowed to play the same defense as hacking-ass OKC.

The problem with first-hand accounts like this is that it's hard to eliminate confirmation bias. You tend to remember things that confirm your beliefs and you forget those that dispel them. Unless you sit there and document every foul call on Durant over a large enough sample size of games, saying things like "I see him get to the line on BS fouls all the time" means nothing.

I watch Knicks games all the time and I feel like half the calls against Melo are bullshit. But that's because I don't care to remember the ones where he actually gets clobbered.

You need to back it up with something quantitative and substantive. That's what DMavs is saying.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I understand all that and I don't think really any of your post refutes what I'm saying. In fact, I agree with a lot of it. Our difference is essentially that you don't think Durant deserves it...while I think he has a skill/ability that gets him to the line more often. Really, you do to, you just don't like it.

Durant has jumped up his free throws this year because he's trying to get to the line more. It's obvious watching him play. He's cut down on long jumpers and threes....he's taking 1 less three and 1 less long jumper per game. So his fga are really the same in terms of your fga vs fta rate theory. He's just removed two bad shots a game. But the main thing is that he's trying to get to the line more. That is the difference between Harden/Durant and Melo/Kobe...the first pairing plays to get fouled more often. I think we can all agree on that...and it's something that Durant, at least imo, has been trying to do all year to become more efficient...and he has. So I don't think it's crazy to see a player go to the line roughly 1 more time per game when said player is trying to do that.

I didn't say I could prove anything. I said that logic leads you to a few things;

Minutes evened up takes Melo up .3 fta per game
The bonus thing has some impact. We don't know how much, but it definitely matters that the Thunder spend more time in the bonus and shoot 1.5 more free throws per qtr....
Techs matter. Who knows how much, but even if it were just 20 or 25 extra a year...that makes up .3 per game roughly

So, my point, is that it's a marginal difference...which you claimed otherwise solely based on fga. That was my beef. Even if you conservatively take the above into account. You are going from a 1.8 difference to 1.0 difference per game...and that has nothing to do with the players...just situations.

Then you said that Durant was better at drawing fouls. That is why I asked how much better. Because if he's 20 percent better...that could easily lead to an extra free throw or two a game.

So if you put them in similar team situations and you'd see roughly a 1 free throw difference per game...and Durant is better. I don't see the big deal. And that is just Melo. Kobe shoots 2 less shots per game than melo...so the margins are even smaller on that comparison.

If you went solely by fga...then Durant would be shooting at a much higher rate, but that metric is merely one of many factors and you treated it as the only one...or at least the main one. And the evidence just doesn't show that. Just like shots at the rim...they matter, but not nearly as much as you say given the evidence.

How is 8.4 still excessive? That would mean Durant goes to the line .4 more times a game than Melo. If you admit Durant is better at getting to the line...I don't see how a mere .8 difference on free throws is that big of a deal.

But honestly...the whole fga thing skewed the debate.

Here is the simple truth that honestly doesn't need much context. In the same number of minutes played per game. Durant shoots about 1.5 more free throws per game. Which is exactly within the normal range for a player you claim is better at getting to the line and, in my opinion, plays to get to the line more than Melo does.

Factor in things like techs and the bonus...and you shrink the number further.

Now, if you don't think Durant is better at getting to the line...then you would have more of reason to take your position. But it seemed to me that you agreed he was and just thought he got there too often based on a fga vs fta rate that is inherently flawed and missing way too much to solely go by.

And I never said Durant doesn't get the benefit of some calls for his frame and all the things you said. All of those things go into making him better at getting to the line. He uses them to his advantage. That is like saying Lebron dunks so often because of his size and strength...well...yes...he uses what he has to his advantage. Durant is tall, long, and skinny...and doesn't absorb contact the same way Melo does. And he combines all of that with selling calls more often and better.

So I'm stuck still being confused. Said player plays more minutes, shoots more techs, his team is in the bonus more often, tries to get to the line more often, and is better at selling calls...and it is unreasonable for said player to take roughly .9 more trips to the line per game?

I don't see the big deal. You watch any Thunder or Knicks game....and you are going to see Durant on the court 1.5 more minutes per game...and watch him take 1.8 more free throws per game. Which is going to the line .9 more times per game on average. That just isn't a big enough gap to warrant the outrage. Remove the extra free throws and all you would see is Durant taking an extra shot or two a game. His ppg would stay the same and his fg% might drop from like 50.6 to like 50.3. So I just don't see the issue. The only time this really would be a problem would be if you thought Durant should only be shooting like 6 free throws a game. But you think he should be shooting, i'm assuming, around 8 a game.

And that was the point of this thread. Is Durant only a good scorer because of his fta. If Durant and Melo shot the same percentage from the line, Durant would be getting 1.6 more ppg than Melo from the line.

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. Which is really big difference when talking about averages. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

I don't agree with these sorts of adjustments either, especially per minute adjustments which are very flawed. And until we have stats for the technical fouls, it's impossible to make any sort of adjustment there. I doubt that would be much of a difference either.

I will concede certain things such as Durant's length giving him an advantage as far as drawing fouls going to the basket, and that he uses his body better to sell these. Melo doesn't always do this, although Melo is quite good at getting players to go for his pump fake when taking mid-range shots.

You admitted Durant's frame gives him an advantage, but that's not a skill, and being skinny doesn't make the foul any more deserved. I don't think it's a conspiracy, just that the refs are constantly fooled by that, and how it looks at times when he twists his body as his shot is getting contested and misses a shot most expect him to make.

Selling the calls is smart, but it doesn't mean he's actually getting fouled on all of those plays. That's my point. He's not the only one guilty of this. You brought up Harden and Martin as well.

It's not just about the numbers either. When I watch both play I see players allowed to Melo really physically, and I just don't see the same applied to Durant. Don't you think there's a reason so many people talk about Durant getting generous calls?

I never agreed with the opinion that Durant is only a good scorer because of that. In fact, I said that earlier. Nobody worth listening would suggest Durant is just a product of the refs, or that he's anything less than an elite scorer regardless of the calls. All you have to do is look at the facts that he's an elite shooter from everywhere and can catch and shoot, or shoot off the dribble, move without the ball and handle the ball very well for a 6'10" player. I'm not ignorant to these things and wouldn't take those things away from Durant.

[DatAsh]

Simple. Minutes should be equal...

Why should minutes be equalized but not FGA? At least equalizing FGA gives you a better picture of a player's ability to get to the line. Equalizing minutes does almost nothing, as minutes played have no (obvious)bearing on the frequency with which a player gets to the line; all they do is increase or decrease the raw totals.


The two leaders in free throw attempts this year take much less fga than Melo.
Exactly, that's the point. Those two players are much better at getting to the line than Anthony or Lebron. That's what sparked this debate in the first place.


Minutes played should be even. That is just common sense.
Common sense or not, it's all the same, so I guess I don't really see the point. That's part of what makes the ratio a more worthwhile statistic than just the raw number.


My god people. Melo takes 4 more shots per game from 16 feet and beyond. Stop acting like those matter at all.
Can't the opposite be said of Lebron and Durant? You make a good point here for one comparison, yet you shoot yourself in the foot for another.

[NumberSix]

Durant is the most kid-gloves reffed player in the NBA. It is what it is. The refs make it VERY clear to the opposing teams defense to "BACK THE FCUK OFF". We all watch the game. We all know it's true.

[DMAVS41]

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

Even if we exclude FGA. And to some extent that's valid(not completely though because Durant draws fouls on jumpers too) but we don't need to go in circles about that. It's still almost 2 extra FTA per game. Which is really big difference when talking about averages. And he's tried to draw fouls for years, and also gotten a significant amount questionable calls for quite some time. I remember Kevin Garnett saying something about this in 2010.

I don't agree with these sorts of adjustments either, especially per minute adjustments which are very flawed. And until we have stats for the technical fouls, it's impossible to make any sort of adjustment there. I doubt that would be much of a difference either.

I will concede certain things such as Durant's length giving him an advantage as far as drawing fouls going to the basket, and that he uses his body better to sell these. Melo doesn't always do this, although Melo is quite good at getting players to go for his pump fake when taking mid-range shots.

You admitted Durant's frame gives him an advantage, but that's not a skill, and being skinny doesn't make the foul any more deserved. I don't think it's a conspiracy, just that the refs are constantly fooled by that, and how it looks at times when he twists his body as his shot is getting contested and misses a shot most expect him to make.

Selling the calls is smart, but it doesn't mean he's actually getting fouled on all of those plays. That's my point. He's not the only one guilty of this. You brought up Harden and Martin as well.

It's not just about the numbers either. When I watch both play I see players allowed to Melo really physically, and I just don't see the same applied to Durant. Don't you think there's a reason so many people talk about Durant getting generous calls?

I never agreed with the opinion that Durant is only a good scorer because of that. In fact, I said that earlier. Nobody worth listening would suggest Durant is just a product of the refs, or that he's anything less than an elite scorer regardless of the calls. All you have to do is look at the facts that he's an elite shooter from everywhere and can catch and shoot, or shoot off the dribble, move without the ball and handle the ball very well for a 6'10" player. I'm not ignorant to these things and wouldn't take those things away from Durant.


So we agree on everything essentially....except I don't think 1.8 free throws a game difference is a big deal...and you do.

I agree that we need the numbers on everything, but my point was that shooting more techs and spending more time in the bonus matters. Especially when I'd imagine Durant gets more off the ball fouls because he's such a great shooter and players have to stay attached to him.

Of course Melo and Kobe can shoot, but Durant is on another level as a shooter. So when you combine that kind of shooting with his ability to put the ball on the floor...you are going to see a lot of fouls.

And then if you factor in what we agreed upon...that he's better at drawing fouls and he tries to do it more often...then you get what you have.

Being skinny and frail is not a skill. I never said it was....I said Durant uses that to his advantage. No different than Melo using his strength around the rim when he rebounds his own misses. A guy like Durant wouldn't be as good at that because he'd get bumped off his spot more.

I think you enter a very dangerous area when you start to try and breakdown a player acting like what type of body and athleticism they possess isn't part of their game.

[DMAVS41]

Why should minutes be equalized but not FGA? At least equalizing FGA gives you a better picture of a player's ability to get to the line. Equalizing minutes does almost nothing, as minutes played have no (obvious)bearing on the frequency with which a player gets to the line; all they do is increase or decrease the raw totals.


Exactly, that's the point. Those two players are much better at getting to the line than Anthony or Lebron. That's what sparked this debate in the first place.


Common sense or not, it's all the same, so I guess I don't really see the point. That's part of what makes the ratio a more worthwhile statistic than just the raw number.


Can't the opposite be said of Lebron and Durant? You make a good point here for one comparison, yet you shoot yourself in the foot for another.


Easy. Nobody is making you take shots when you are on the court...and fga are not a direct correlation to fta...as I showed. Minutes being equal simply give the players the same chances to be on the court. I'm not saying minutes determine fta...but that it gives the players the same amount of time on the court. It should be obvious why that should be equal.

[DirkNowitzki41]

streak killers

[DatAsh]

Easy. Nobody is making you take shots when you are on the court...and fga are not a direct correlation to fta...as I showed. Minutes being equal simply give the players the same chances to be on the court. I'm not saying minutes determine fta...but that it gives the players the same amount of time on the court. It should be obvious why that should be equal.

That's not the point. The point is that equalizing minutes does nothing but increase or decrease the raw totals. You addressed none of the points I made.

[Raymone]

Can you imagine if LeBron got half as many FTs as Durant?

[DatAsh]

and fga are not a direct correlation to fta

This statement just shows a lack of understanding.

[Psycho]

Can you imagine if LeBron got half as many FTs as Durant?

He actually already gets more than half as many FTs as Durant. You're a b1tch.

[dh144498]

He actually already gets more than half as many FTs as Durant. You're a b1tch.

:roll: :lol
these youngsters..... :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

That's not the point. The point is that equalizing minutes does nothing but increase or decrease the raw totals. You addressed none of the points I made.

I'm not trying to affect anything. I'm saying that the players should be given the same amount of time on the court.

Stop pretending like fga mean anything. They don't. I'm not saying minutes are an indicator of anything. I'm saying that the opportunity to get fouled per game should be the same.

The only way to equalize that is to have them on the court the same amount of time.

Your other points don't make sense...

[DMAVS41]

This statement just shows a lack of understanding.

What are you talking about.

Harden, Durant, and Kobe all shoot more free throws than Melo. Yet Melo takes more shots than all of them. He also takes more shots at the rim than all of them.

The two arguments your side posted were shots at the rim and overall fga. And they aren't good indicators on the top 4 ft shooters in the league. So why hold to them so tightly?

Do you not see why I don't care about your metrics? Out of the top 4...the guy shooting the least fga...shoots the most free throws. The guy shooting the most fga...shoots the last free throws. The guy shooting the most shots at the rim per game...shoots the least amount of free throws.

Hell, throw in Lebron and Westbrook....who shoot more shots at the rim than the other 4 guys above...and they shoot less free throws than them all.

Can you really not see why I don't think those two things matter all that much?

[DatAsh]

I'm not trying to affect anything. I'm saying that the players should be given the same amount of time on the court.


If it doesn't affect the discussion at hand at all, why mess with it? Should we also equalize the number of cars that each player owns?

To be fair, there might be some argument for correlation, but I've never seen anyone make it, and it could honestly go either way.


Stop pretending like fga mean anything.

So stop pretending that a fact is true? That's basically what you're saying here.


The only way to equalize that is to have them on the court the same amount of time.

It's equalized by default, that's where the misunderstanding lies.


Your other points don't make sense...

Which points?

[DMAVS41]

If it doesn't affect the discussion at hand at all, why mess with it? Should we also equalize the number of cars that each player owns?

To be fair, there might be some argument for correlation, but I've never seen anyone make it, and it could honestly go either way.



So stop pretending that a fact is true? That's basically what you're saying here.



It's equalized by default, that's where the misunderstanding lies.



Which points?

It's equalized by default if you think fga vs fta is a direct correlation. We've already blown that out of the water. Same with attempts at the rim.

I'll do it again.

Here are the 2 arguments that your side has made. FGA and shots at the rim.

Both do not hold true for the top 4 guys...what we have been discussing about.

And the shots at the rim do not hold true for Lebron or Westbrook. Westbrook shoots more shots at the rim than both Harden and Durant...and he takes more shots than both of them. Yet he shoots less free throws.

Melo is the same way.

Kobe takes more shots at the rim than Durant...and more shots overall...and he shoots less free throws.

Minutes on the court should be even because the only time you can get fouled is if you are on the court. You don't have to be taking a fga to get fouled so it's not the same at all. What players do on the court is up to them. Again..not saying it is a huge factor. But it is a factor.

What seems to be lost in all of this is that Durant and Harden both play to get fouled. It is part of their game...they try to draw fouls a lot. The other guys don't as much. That is probably the biggest factor.

But no...lets keep pretending that Melo taking a bunch of long jumpers every game impacts how often he gets to the line. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Lets try this another way.

Kobe takes 1.5 more shots than Westbrook a game. Kobe also takes 1.5 more threes...not to mention more bad shots and long shots. But let's just even them up by reducing Kobe's threes to westbrooks.

So they both then take 18.9 shots a game.

Westbrook takes 1.6 more shots at the rim each game. Yet Kobe shoots .8 more free throws per game.

Why? Westbrook attacks more. Gets to the rim more. Somehow Kobe taking a handful of more long/bad shots per game impacts his free throws enough to warrant him taking almost 1 more free throw per game?

Makes no sense if what your side is arguing for is accurate...but thankfully it isn't.

[DatAsh]

It's equalized by default if you think fga vs fta is a direct correlation. The bolded is provably false. Why would I believe something that's provably false?


We've already blown that out of the water.
It was blown out of the water from the get-go, you had absolutely no hand in that.


Here are the 2 arguments that your side has made. FGA and shots at the rim.
This is another strawman. You're arguing against a point I never made.


Both do not hold true for the top 4 guys...what we have been discussing about.
Exactly. That's what makes them so much better at getting to the line.


And the shots at the rim do not hold true for Lebron or Westbrook. Westbrook shoots more shots at the rim than both Harden and Durant...and he takes more shots than both of them. Yet he shoots less free throws.
Exactly, Westbrook is another one who I'd say gets hacked more than he gets credit for.


Kobe takes more shots at the rim than Durant...and more shots overall...and he shoots less free throws.
Yep, and that's why I say Durant is much better at getting to the line.


Minutes on the court should be even because the only time you can get fouled is if you are on the court. You don't have to be taking a fga to get fouled so it's not the same at all. What players do on the court is up to them. Again..not saying it is a huge factor. But it is a factor.
My intuition would tell me that rate decreases as minutes increase, but I've never seen any sort of stats related to such a thing. Without some kind of applicable correlation, you're just multiplying by a common factor and not changing the rate at all.


What seems to be lost in all of this is that Durant and Harden both play to get fouled. It is part of their game...they try to draw fouls a lot. The other guys don't as much. That is probably the biggest factor.
You're right here, and I actually don't see anything wrong with playing for the foul, if it works.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't think Durant is a better scorer than Kobe, Melo , or LeBron. He's a shooter much like Dirk, only he's superior at putting the ball on the ground, slashing, and has more athletic ability. But the soft calls he gets, combined with the absurd amount of free throws that pad his scoring numbers are making me second guess him and actually root against him. The way the league is manufacturing his performances is appalling.

[UnbiasedGuy]

Some well put arguments the last couple pages for both sides
:cheers: :applause

sorry, do not have anything to add to the discussion until I read this thread and have a better informed opinion

[DMAVS41]

The bolded is provably false. Why would I believe something that's provably false?


It was blown out of the water from the get-go, you had absolutely no hand in that.


This is another strawman. You're arguing against a point I never made.


Exactly. That's what makes them so much better at getting to the line.


Exactly, Westbrook is another one who I'd say gets hacked more than he gets credit for.


Yep, and that's why I say Durant is much better at getting to the line.


My intuition would tell me that rate decreases as minutes increase, but I've never seen any sort of stats related to such a thing. Without some kind of applicable correlation, you're just multiplying by a common factor and not changing the rate at all.


You're right here, and I actually don't see anything wrong with playing for the foul, if it works.

So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?

I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.

So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?

[NumberSix]

So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls?

I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles.

So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?
Meh. Playing to draw a foul is a perfectly legitimate strategy. It's still an actual foul. There's a difference between

A) -baiting legit fouls

or

B) -phantom fouls
-getting FTs for something that by NBA rules isn't supposed to result in FTs
-really weak questionable minimal contact fouls.

[DMAVS41]

Meh. Playing to draw a foul is a perfectly legitimate strategy. It's still an actual foul. There's a difference between

A) -baiting legit fouls

or

B) -phantom fouls
-getting FTs for something that by NBA rules isn't supposed to result in FTs
-really weak questionable minimal contact fouls.

You simply don't watch enough of the games of all the players in question to make the claim that one player gets more phantom calls than the other.

It's called confirmation bias...and unless you've watched virtually every Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Rockets game...you simply can't say that.

But even if I concede that Durant and Harden get more BS calls. What is the ultimate impact of that? How often more is it happening. This is where the margins come in as small and what I was saying earlier.

Even if you say Durant isn't better at drawing fouls and he's just reffed differently, it's still only leading to 1.8 more free throws per game. I'm not saying that isn't a big difference, but Durant scoring an extra 1.6 ppg off undeserved free throws is simply not worth bitching about to the extreme some people are.

[Unstoppabull]

http://i.imgur.com/jef6a.gif

[BlazerRed]

http://i.imgur.com/jef6a.gif
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Unstoppabull]

Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.

[ripthekik]

http://i.imgur.com/jef6a.gif
:roll: :roll:

I haven't read 1 post in this thread, but being able to get FT's a part of the package. If it allows him to get a third of his 30 or so points, then yes he is a good scorer. As long as he can put points up in the board, I don't care how he does it. 1 point = 1 point.

[NumberSix]

You simply don't watch enough of the games of all the players in question to make the claim that one player gets more phantom calls than the other.

It's called confirmation bias...and unless you've watched virtually every Thunder, Knicks, Lakers, and Rockets game...you simply can't say that.

But even if I concede that Durant and Harden get more BS calls. What is the ultimate impact of that? How often more is it happening. This is where the margins come in as small and what I was saying earlier.

Even if you say Durant isn't better at drawing fouls and he's just reffed differently, it's still only leading to 1.8 more free throws per game. I'm not saying that isn't a big difference, but Durant scoring an extra 1.6 ppg off undeserved free throws is simply not worth bitching about to the extreme some people are.
Who do you think first brought this to people's attention? I was the first one on here bitching about how soft Durant/OKC get called on offense but gets away with hacking on defense.

I remember I was going crazy during the OKC/Dallas series and some people finally saw what I was talking about but most people just kept telling me to "shut up" and "stop trolling", but people are finally catching up and realizing I was right all along.

It's not even the actual calls that fcuk it up. I know it only 1.6 points. It doesn't matter though. It's the message that the refs set one tone for one team and a different tone for the other.

[NumberSix]

When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.

[Fudge]

Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.
:applause:

How hard is it to understand? It's this, and that's as simple as it gets.

[DMAVS41]

When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.

You have to give some credit to the player though. If it was so easy to get to the line like that, everyone would do it.

People did the same thing with MJ...they bitched an bitched and bitched about his free throws.

If it's so easy...get to the line more. My point is that it's not easy and that guys like Durant and Harden deserve credit.

[maybeshewill13]

When the refs set the tone for one team that "No, we're calling it tight tonight" but for OKC it's "No, we're going loose. We're gonna let you guys get in there and D up". That affects how you play. You can't set 2 different tones and then also go out of your way to make sure the other team is in the penalty a couple minutes into each quarter.
Mad as fuq as always. ****ing love it :lol Get a life you salty princess :sleeping

[NumberSix]

You have to give some credit to the player though. If it was so easy to get to the line like that, everyone would do it.

People did the same thing with MJ...they bitched an bitched and bitched about his free throws.

If it's so easy...get to the line more. My point is that it's not easy and that guys like Durant and Harden deserve credit.
How exactly do you go about getting the refs to blow the whistle when nobody fouled you? Stop playing dumb. Let's not act like this is some kind of special skill that Durant possess that others simply lack. There's obviously an agenda to push this guy.

[DMAVS41]

How exactly do you go about getting the refs to blow the whistle when nobody fouled you? Stop playing dumb. Let's not act like this is some kind of special skill that Durant possess that others simply lack. There's obviously an agenda to push this guy.

Then you are saying that all the refs get together and agree to give phantom calls to Durant and Harden.

So what is more likely? That Harden and Durant do something to get more calls?...or that there is a conspiracy?

Really take a minute and think about it.

[Greg Oden 50]

stats paddar,protected by the refs = KD :hammerhead:

[Graviton]

Then you are saying that all the refs get together and agree to give phantom calls to Durant and Harden.

So what is more likely? That Harden and Durant do something to get more calls?...or that there is a conspiracy?

Really take a minute and think about it.
You are asking one of the most dense trolls on this board to do something his brain can not possibly accomplish.

[NumberSix]

Then you are saying that all the refs get together and agree to give phantom calls to Durant and Harden.

So what is more likely? That Harden and Durant do something to get more calls?...or that there is a conspiracy?

Really take a minute and think about it.
Not a conspiracy, just a benefit of the doubt.

Like if Durant stumbles over his own foot, the ref blows his whistle. It's like he's thinking "Well, Durant just stumbled. Clearly that guy near him MUST have fouled him. I didn't see a foul but what other explanation could there possibly be?".

If Durant loses control of the ball "Oh, KD just lost the handle. That guy must have hit him".


Even OKC fans will admit that shit shit is commonplace for Durant this season. He's not doing it on purpose to strategically get calls. He's just messing up and getting the benefit of the doubt. It's not being unbiased to just pretend this isn't the case.

[DMAVS41]

Not a conspiracy, just a benefit of the doubt.

Like if Durant stumbles over his own foot, the ref blows his whistle. It's like he's thinking "Well, Durant just stumbled. Clearly that guy near him MUST have fouled him. I didn't see a foul but what other explanation could there possibly be?".

If Durant loses control of the ball "Oh, KD just lost the handle. That guy must have hit him".


Even OKC fans will admit that shit shit is commonplace for Durant this season. He's not doing it on purpose to strategically get calls. He's just messing up and getting the benefit of the doubt. It's not being unbiased to just pretend this isn't the case.


Again though. Why? It's either Durant doing something to get more of these calls...or you are claiming that refs give Durant the benefit of the doubt for reasons not related to basketball.

Sorry...can't have it both ways.

[NumberSix]

Again though. Why? It's either Durant doing something to get more of these calls...or you are claiming that refs give Durant the benefit of the doubt for reasons not related to basketball.

Sorry...can't have it both ways.
How am I having it both ways? Those two scenario are mutually EXLUSIVE.:hammerhead:

I've been saying this entire time that it's NOT Durant doing something to get calls and it IS the refs giving him the benefit of the doubt. I've been perfectly consistent here.

[iamgine]

Like if Durant stumbles over his own foot, the ref blows his whistle. It's like he's thinking "Well, Durant just stumbled. Clearly that guy near him MUST have fouled him. I didn't see a foul but what other explanation could there possibly be?".

If Durant loses control of the ball "Oh, KD just lost the handle. That guy must have hit him".

Are there enough examples of this to say it?

[DMAVS41]

How am I having it both ways? Those two scenario are mutually EXLUSIVE.:hammerhead:

I've been saying this entire time that it's NOT Durant doing something to get calls and it IS the refs giving him the benefit of the doubt. I've been perfectly consistent here.

I'm saying it is either a conspiracy or he's doing something. When you have a sample this big with different refs..different games...different circumstances...all of it. And he's getting to the line like he is....it's not a fluke stat anomaly or something.

So all the refs either choose to give Durant phantom calls...or Durant/Harden do things to get the refs to make the calls you are talking about.

That is what I mean by not having it both ways. You can't say it's not a conspiracy type situation...and then say that Durant gets extra free throws each game on phantom calls that you know other players don't get. And then say Durant does nothing to get these calls...he just gets them. That implies a ref conspiracy to give Durant more free throws than other players.

And I asked you to think about it...and I guess you didn't.

[fos]

One thing that is being overlooked is that all things being even, Durant will still get more foul calls than any of the other superstars because he's a 90% shooter so he'll be the guy shooting ALL technical freethrows (not huge but noteworthy). He also is just better at drawing fouls than the other guys mentioned because of his freakish wingspan, it's simply not enough to put a hand up on his jumpshot like you would do with Lebron, Melo, or Kobe and since he's such a deadeye shooter and so quick for his size he gets fouled at a much higher rate when he puts the ball on the floor. The fact of the matter is you can have a game where you get some phantom/bad calls but over the course of an entire season you can't explain his high number of attempts on refereeing. It's like flipping a coin heads or tails, sure you can have ten heads in a row or some "fluke" in the short run, but the higher number of tosses the closer to 50% you'll get in the long run. Durant is clearly the second best player in the league behind Lebron and there is a smaller gap from Lebron to Durant than from Durant to whomever you rank third.

[DMAVS41]

One thing that is being overlooked is that all things being even, Durant will still get more foul calls than any of the other superstars because he's a 90% shooter so he'll be the guy shooting ALL technical freethrows (not huge but noteworthy). He also is just better at drawing fouls than the other guys mentioned because of his freakish wingspan, it's simply not enough to put a hand up on his jumpshot like you would do with Lebron, Melo, or Kobe and since he's such a deadeye shooter and so quick for his size he gets fouled at a much higher rate when he puts the ball on the floor. The fact of the matter is you can have a game where you get some phantom/bad calls but over the course of an entire season you can't explain his high number of attempts on refereeing. It's like flipping a coin heads or tails, sure you can have ten heads in a row or some "fluke" in the short run, but the higher number of tosses the closer to 50% you'll get in the long run. Durant is clearly the second best player in the league behind Lebron and there is a smaller gap from Lebron to Durant than from Durant to whomever you rank third.

I brought up the techs and the fact that the Thunder are in the bonus more than any other team other than the Lakers...and that is probably solely due to the hack a howard. These points were mostly ignored.

What you say is exactly true. Over the course of the season...statistical anomalies even out. So it's either 1 of 2 things;

1. Durant does something to get to the line more often than some of the other players

2. There is a league wide ref conspiracy to send Durant to the line more often

Those are your only 2 options.

[NumberSix]

I'm saying it is either a conspiracy or he's doing something. When you have a sample this big with different refs..different games...different circumstances...all of it. And he's getting to the line like he is....it's not a fluke stat anomaly or something.

So all the refs either choose to give Durant phantom calls...or Durant/Harden do things to get the refs to make the calls you are talking about.

That is what I mean by not having it both ways. You can't say it's not a conspiracy type situation...and then say that Durant gets extra free throws each game on phantom calls that you know other players don't get. And then say Durant does nothing to get these calls...he just gets them. That implies a ref conspiracy to give Durant more free throws than other players.

And I asked you to think about it...and I guess you didn't.
Who am I to say there's a ref conspiracy? I have no knowledge of their staff meetings or discussions. I have no evidence to claim that I know what they do or don't do behind closed doors. All I can go by is what I see for myself. I can tell you what I see take place, but I can't speak to the motivations or reasons for it. I can tell you that I see Durant getting officiated unusually softly, but I can't speculate why.

[DMAVS41]

Who am I to say there's a ref conspiracy? I have no knowledge of their staff meetings or discussions. I have no evidence to claim that I know what they do or don't do behind closed doors. All I can go by is what I see for myself. I can tell you what I see take place, but I can't speak to the motivations or reasons for it. I can tell you that I see Durant getting officiated unusually softly, but I can't speculate why.

And you think Durant has nothing to do with it though...so that means the refs ref Durant differently than other players for no reason.

How do you not see what I'm saying? Think about it. You have different refs, reffing different games, with different defenses and players, different scenarios...etc.

And Durant continues to shoot his free throw rate. So either the refs have chosen to give him softer calls...or he does something to warrant more trips to the line.

You watching the games is worth something, but it's also extremely limited because you don't watch every second of every game of Durant, Harden, Kobe, Melo, Lebron..etc.

So it's a limited analysis and prone to confirmation bias.

[NumberSix]

And you think Durant has nothing to do with it though...so that means the refs ref Durant differently than other players for no reason.

How do you not see what I'm saying? Think about it. You have different refs, reffing different games, with different defenses and players, different scenarios...etc.

And Durant continues to shoot his free throw rate. So either the refs have chosen to give him softer calls...or he does something to warrant more trips to the line.

You watching the games is worth something, but it's also extremely limited because you don't watch every second of every game of Durant, Harden, Kobe, Melo, Lebron..etc.

So it's a limited analysis and prone to confirmation bias.
Lemme ask you a straight question and give me a straight answer.

From what you've seen, does Durant get an unusual amou... Nope. Can't say "unusual" because you'll dance around what constitutes an "unusual amount".

Scratch that. From what you've seen, does Durant typically* get a NOTICEABLE amount of what you think would generally be considered "questionable" calls in his favor?

*Typically meaning, is it normal of when you personally watch him play that it's commonplace for him to get these calls. Not just once in a blue moon. It's a recurring thing.

[DMAVS41]

Lemme ask you a straight question and give me a straight answer.

From what you've seen, does Durant get an unusual amou... Nope. Can't say "unusual" because you'll dance around what constitutes an "unusual amount".

Scratch that. From what you've seen, does Durant typically* get a NOTICEABLE amount of what you think would generally be considered "questionable" calls in his favor?

*Typically meaning, is it normal of when you personally watch him play that it's commonplace for him to get these calls. Not just once in a blue moon. It's a recurring thing.

This is not me dancing around it at all.

My answer is yes, but it would also be that way with Kobe and Harden. When I watch Kobe play...I feel like he gets a ton of phantom calls on long jumpers. Harden seems to me like he gets the whistle every time he drives.

Take Dirk...he gets hit all the time with no call compared to the above 3 guys. But Dirk is also much worse at selling the call and playing for fouls than the above 3 guys...at least he has been the last couple years.

This is why confirmation bias is so deadly...even if I grant you that Durant seems to get a lot of these when I watch...it would mean nothing more than the statement itself...and wouldn't mean that Durant isn't doing something to get those calls.

Again, guys like Durant and Harden are either doing something other players aren't....or the refs have a mandate to gift them free throws.

And by "doing something"...that encompasses everything. From style of play, to selling calls, to their physique...everything. It may be that Durant gets a huge benefit from his long arms and frail body...that still means he's doing something to warrant the calls because he's using those to his advantage.

But I think it's far more simple than that. Durant is a sharp shooter that happens to be near 7 feet that can also put the ball on the floor. He's such a good shooter that he runs off screens like Allen and Miller did. He's just a nightmare to guard with the ball and without the ball...because any space you give him...it's over. And then, to top it off, he has an ability to sell calls imo...and most others in this thread have agreed with that. And he plays on a team that is in the bonus more than pretty much every other team in the league. And he shoots all the techs.

So I think it's simple and easily explained logically.

[NumberSix]

This is not me dancing around it at all.

My answer is yes, but it would also be that way with Kobe and Harden. When I watch Kobe play...I feel like he gets a ton of phantom calls on long jumpers. Harden seems to me like he gets the whistle every time he drives.

Take Dirk...he gets hit all the time with no call compared to the above 3 guys. But Dirk is also much worse at selling the call and playing for fouls than the above 3 guys...at least he has been the last couple years.

This is why confirmation bias is so deadly...even if I grant you that Durant seems to get a lot of these when I watch...it would mean nothing more than the statement itself...and wouldn't mean that Durant isn't doing something to get those calls.

Again, guys like Durant and Harden are either doing something other players aren't....or the refs have a mandate to gift them free throws.

And by "doing something"...that encompasses everything. From style of play, to selling calls, to their physique...everything. It may be that Durant gets a huge benefit from his long arms and frail body...that still means he's doing something to warrant the calls because he's using those to his advantage.

But I think it's far more simple than that. Durant is a sharp shooter that happens to be near 7 feet that can also put the ball on the floor. He's such a good shooter that he runs off screens like Allen and Miller did. He's just a nightmare to guard with the ball and without the ball...because any space you give him...it's over. And then, to top it off, he has an ability to sell calls imo...and most others in this thread have agreed with that. And he plays on a team that is in the bonus more than pretty much every other team in the league. And he shoots all the techs.

So I think it's simple and easily explained logically.
This might be where our difference on the matter might be. When I talk about KD getting phantom calls, I'm not usually talking about shooting fouls. Yes, other players like Harden are in the same boat.That's not my issue. My problem with Durant is with the non-shooting and the off-ball calls.

[DMAVS41]

This might be where our difference on the matter might be. When I talk about KD getting phantom calls, I'm not usually talking about shooting fouls. Yes, other players like Harden are in the same boat.That's not my issue. My problem with Durant is with the non-shooting and the off-ball calls.

I'm referencing everything. The reason Durant gets those is because he's so much better of a shooter than the other guys. So when he comes off a screen....guys have to play him way more physically. They have to grab and bump and hold...and with Durant's frail body and his ability to sell the call and the fact that he's actually being fouled more often in those situations...you get the results...logically.

Why can't we just give players credit. It's Durant's great shooting that causes what you are talking about. If defenders didn't do that to him...he'd just get a couple more great looks a game coming off screens.

Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Cut down on these foul calls and you'd just see him take a couple more good shots a game if he was defended how Kobe and Melo are.

[NumberSix]

I'm referencing everything. The reason Durant gets those is because he's so much better of a shooter than the other guys. So when he comes off a screen....guys have to play him way more physically. They have to grab and bump and hold...and with Durant's frail body and his ability to sell the call and the fact that he's actually being fouled more often in those situations...you get the results...logically.

Why can't we just give players credit. It's Durant's great shooting that causes what you are talking about. If defenders didn't do that to him...he'd just get a couple more great looks a game coming off screens.

Which is what I've been saying the whole time. Cut down on these foul calls and you'd just see him take a couple more good shots a game if he was defended how Kobe and Melo are.
See, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when he literally doesn't touch another player AT ALL.

Ask anyone who watches/follows the thunder. This dude has been stumbling around all season. The guy trips over his own feet dribbles off his knee or just completely loses his handle for no apparent reason.

It's too often that he does this and the whistle is blown and on the replay it's clear that nobody even touched him. He just messed up.

[luckylucy]

Even if we take away the FTs he's given for no reason he'll still be a great scorer, but you can't deny that he gets a couple of those every other game.

[DMAVS41]

See, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when he literally doesn't touch another player AT ALL.

Ask anyone who watches/follows the thunder. This dude has been stumbling around all season. The guy trips over his own feet dribbles off his knee or just completely loses his handle for no apparent reason.

It's too often that he does this and the whistle is blown and on the replay it's clear that nobody even touched him. He just messed up.

That is the definition of confirmation bias and an indictment on all the refs for conspiring to ref Durant differently than other players.

[Sarcastic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DsEkCY8qPcc


Durant made a throat slash last night which is forbidden in the NBA. Let's see how the league handles it. If I were a betting man, I would wager they don't do anything.

[DatAsh]

So...is your issue that Harden and Durant and I guess...Kobe? get to the line too often compared to other players. Or that Westbrook and Melo and Lebron don't get enough calls? I honestly can't say definitively. It seems as though I'm alone in this regard, but I never really come away from an OKC game thinking Durant was gifted with a bunch of undeserved free throws. I do usually think Westbrook gets hacked more than he gets credit for; same with Lebron, Melo, and Kobe.

My main issue was with you not understanding why I've been using FTA/FGA over straight FTA. It's a measurement tool. That's it. There is no "why". You keep trying to compare it against the "why", for which there is simply no comparison.


I know it's kind of the same thing, but the difference between a guy like Harden and Westbrook, for example, is that Harden plays to get fouled while Westbrook plays to score. Not all of the time, but there is a clear cut difference between playing styles. Harden and Durant are better at selling the contact that they get. For me, that's the main reason why they're so much better at getting to the line.


So doesn't that seem like the biggest factor?
Possibly. It's certainly up there.

What - not to be confused with why - makes Durant so much more efficent at getting to the line than Anthony is not the fact that he shoots 1.8 more ft per game, it's that he shoots 1.8 more ft while utilizing fewer of his team's possessions.


Here's a thought. Durant gets so many fouls, is the same reason Harden gets so many foul calls. It's not like James Harden down in Houston is some massively marketable superstar; you can change your game to make people foul you. I believe they both model their game at trying to draw fouls. Oh yea not to mention Harden's a better flopper than any of them.

It does make sense tho. People will generally play off of LeBron more often, to stop his drives to the rim. No one will want to foul LeBron when he drives to the rim because they know it's a fruitless attempt; he's going to finish through that little contact anyways. It's not as simple as seeing who gets more shots at the rim to determine how many FT's they are allotted.

However when playing Durant, players tend to play him much tighter. One, he is actually a dangerous outside shooter, and two, he is much softer and weaker. One reason he gets more calls than Lebron and Carmelo is because he's weaker. This way, when he's fouled, it's a lot easier to spot. You'll see big guys like Lebron get hacked by some guard and it won't affect them at all; they just power through as if they were untouched. With Durant however, he's physically moved and you can clearly see the change to his shot. Basically, it's really difficult to miss a foul on Durant because it bothers him so much. Also, his arms are like giant squid tentacles, they flail around a lot, so it's really easy to hit them. In short, Risking the foul on Durant is much more effective than just letting him shoot.

Great post.

My only disagreement is with the bolded. Lebron gets hacked all the time going to the rim. Maybe they don't want to, but they do.



People did the same thing with MJ...they bitched an bitched and bitched about his free throws.


MJ wasn't all that great at getting to the line though. For his time he was great in that regard, but guys like Harden and Durant are a couple steps above.

[DMAVS41]

I honestly can't say definitively. It seems as though I'm alone in this regard, but I never really come away from an OKC game thinking Durant was gifted with a bunch of undeserved free throws. I do usually think Westbrook gets hacked more than he gets credit for; same with Lebron, Melo, and Kobe.

My main issue was with you not understanding why I've been using FTA/FGA over straight FTA. It's a measurement tool. That's it. There is no "why". You keep trying to compare it against the "why", for which there is simply no comparison.

Harden and Durant are better at selling the contact that they get. For me, that's the main reason why they're so much better at getting to the line.


Possibly. It's certainly up there.

What - not to be confused with why - makes Durant so much more efficent at getting to the line than Anthony is not the fact that he shoots 1.8 more ft per game, it's that he shoots 1.8 more ft while utilizing fewer of his team's possessions.



Great post.

My only disagreement is with the bolded. Lebron gets hacked all the time going to the rim. Maybe they don't want to, but they do.



MJ wasn't all that great at getting to the line though. For his time he was great in that regard, but guys like Harden and Durant are a couple steps above.

So you just agree with me. Got it.

[DatAsh]

So you just agree with me. Got it.

On which matters?

[DMAVS41]

On everything.

You don't think fga determines fta...and you don't think Durant gets an inordinate amount of phantom calls.

[DatAsh]

On everything.

You don't think fga determines fta...and you don't think Durant gets an inordinate amount of phantom calls.

I agree with those two statements, but the first statement is just a fact.

[knicksman]

Why are lebron stans whining like their boy doesnt have any preferential treatment over durant. Look at the finals. Thats how harden disappeared.

[Facades]

Why are lebron stans whining like their boy doesnt have any preferential treatment over durant. Look at the finals. Thats how harden disappeared.
Harden blew wide open layups, missed wide open threes, and was generally ineffective. Had nothing to do with "preferential treatment".

[DMAVS41]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DsEkCY8qPcc


Durant made a throat slash last night which is forbidden in the NBA. Let's see how the league handles it. If I were a betting man, I would wager they don't do anything.

He got fined 25k. LOL

[Fudge]

2 FT's tonight from Kevin Durantom. :bowdown:

[dunksby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DsEkCY8qPcc


Durant made a throat slash last night which is forbidden in the NBA. Let's see how the league handles it. If I were a betting man, I would wager they don't do anything.
Good thing you are not :lol

[DMAVS41]

So just to get this straight.

We've now all pretty much agreed that fga and shots at the rim are not great indicators of free throw rate.

So what again is the problem with Durant shooting less than 2 more free throws than the likes of Kobe and Melo again?

[dunksby]

So just to get this straight.

We've now all pretty much agreed that fga and shots at the rim are not great indicators of free throw rate.

So what again is the problem with Durant shooting less than 2 more free throws than the likes of Kobe and Melo again?
That their favorite player doesn't get as much?