Where does Lebron's season rank all time?

[Donkey4trading]

Is this Lebrons best season ever? 27 8 & 7 2 steals 1 block per game on 57% shooting, on his way to a 2nd straight MVP..

Historically where does this season rank among Lebrons greatest seasons, i know this question has been asked before but since we're winding down the regular season it's time to reflect on this historic regular season that Lebron is having.

Something else to chew on, if Lebron wins his 2nd straight MVP, 2nd straight title & 2nd straight FMVP can we say that Lebron is the most dominant player since Jordan?

[b1imtf]

Top 0

[(e)]

Top 200 for sure.

[Donkey4trading]

Top 0



Top 200 for sure.


insecure much?

Lebron is having a historic season and if he wins another title this year will have had the most dominant 2 year stretch of any player in the past 16 years

[ShaqAttack3234]

I can only rank his regular season at the moment, but it'd have to rank pretty damn high. I'd rank it behind Shaq's 2000 season and MJ's 3 seasons from '90-'92, and Hakeem's '93 and '94 seasons have to be up there. But then you have to go back farther to find more that compare. Possibly Bird in the mid/late 80's, '87 Magic, maybe 1 or 2 of Kareem's seasons and Wilt in '67 and possibly '68.

It's a really short list. Although this is just regular season because we have to see how he plays in the playoffs.

[BuffaloBill]

I can't think of 499 seasons better than the one LeBron is having right now.

[SavageMode]

Easily over Chokebe.

[Fudge]

Something else to chew on, if Lebron wins his 2nd straight MVP, 2nd straight title & 2nd straight FMVP can we say that Lebron is the most dominant player since Jordan?
Shaq?

[thabisyo]

Easily over Chokebe.

Lol the guy is injured :lol

[Donkey4trading]

Shaq?


Shaqs up there, however if Lebron is able to match him with his 2nd straight FMVP AND 2nd straight MVP I'd give the nod to Lebron, (assuming he plays like he did in last years playoffs)

Something to note, Lebron is currently shooting at Shaq levels of efficiency while also shooting a career high from 3 (40%)

[Kblaze8855]

Real talk...if Lebron has his 09 season and wins 66 with role players and has his 13 season and wins 63-66 with more help...would 09 Lebron not win MVP?

[UnbiasedGuy]

Ive noticed lebron stopped taking 3s now that he has hit 40% for the season :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :oldlol:

[Breezy]

Real talk...if Lebron has his 09 season and wins 66 with role players and has his 13 season and wins 63-66 with more help...would 09 Lebron not win MVP?

I think that was his best season. 28.4/7.6/7.2 and led the team to 66 wins with mo williams as the second best player. I know the shooting percentages are higher this season but that season he had to carry much more of a burden.

[b1imtf]

insecure much?

Lebron is having a historic season and if he wins another title this year will have had the most dominant 2 year stretch of any player in the past 16 years
I like LeBron, calm down lol I just don't have enough knowledge to rank it, since I've only wached ball for 5 years

[Donkey4trading]

I like LeBron, calm down lol I just don't have enough knowledge to rank it, since I've only wached ball for 5 years


fair enough i can respect that. To many people try to talk about players or seasons that they weren't even around to see.

[Haks]

Top 15-20 atm but when its all said he will most likely finish in the top 5

[DatAsh]

Real talk...if Lebron has his 09 season and wins 66 with role players and has his 13 season and wins 63-66 with more help...would 09 Lebron not win MVP?

Close call on who'd win the mvp, but (at least in my mind)'13 Lebron is clearly a better player. The only thing 09' Lebron has over this version is a arguably a bit of athleticism. Current Lebron is a better decision maker, much better off ball player, better outside shooter, much better post player, and a better defender. Team chemistry is a complex thing, and it's not always the most talented team that does the best. Those Cavs' teams had great regular season chemistry based off Lebron's ability to score and create shots for his outside shooters, but they struggled come playoff time when teams could hone in on a strategy to limit Lebron over a seven game series.

For me, this is Lebron's best season. As for where it ranks all time, it's up there. 67' Wilt, 00' Shaq, 91' Jordan are a step above imo, but he's certainly somewhere in that next tier of 64' Russell, 87' Magic, 86' Bird, 94' Hakeem, 77' Walton, and 77' Kareem.

[2010splash]

It's right up there for #1 all time along with some of Jordan's best. Anyone mentioning Russell, Kareem, Bird, or Magic in this conversation needs to get that b.s. outta here.

[Just2McFly]

It's right up there for #1 all time along with some of Jordan's best. Anyone mentioning Russell, Kareem, Bird, or Magic in this conversation needs to get that b.s. outta here.
:biggums: :roll:

[Donkey4trading]

It's right up there for #1 all time along with some of Jordan's best. Anyone mentioning Russell, Kareem, Bird, or Magic in this conversation needs to get that b.s. outta here.


top 3 at the very worst in the past 30 years. Bird & Magic played on stacked teams while Lebron has been dominating these past 2 years while having to carry clost to the entire load

[Remix]

top 3 at the very worst in the past 30 years. Bird & Magic played on stacked teams while Lebron has been dominating these past 2 years while having to carry clost to the entire load

:biggums:

lmao

[Donkey4trading]

:biggums:

lmao


Lebron is playing with some good talent but is he playing with anybody on Kareems level?

Is this HEAT team as deep as all of the 80's Celtics teams? 86 Celtics are considered one of the greatest TEAMS of all time, not just because of Bird but because of the numerous other all stars/talent they had on that team.

Both Bird & Magic won at least one title without winning a FMVP, which goes to show what kind of talent both players had around them. This is something you will never be able to say about Lebron.

[ILLsmak]

Close call on who'd win the mvp, but (at least in my mind)'13 Lebron is clearly a better player. The only thing 09' Lebron has over this version is a arguably a bit of athleticism. Current Lebron is a better decision maker, much better off ball player, better outside shooter, much better post player, and a better defender. Team chemistry is a complex thing, and it's not always the most talented team that does the best. Those Cavs' teams had great regular season chemistry based off Lebron's ability to score and create shots for his outside shooters, but they struggled come playoff time when teams could hone in on a strategy to limit Lebron over a seven game series.

For me, this is Lebron's best season. As for where it ranks all time, it's up there. 67' Wilt, 00' Shaq, 91' Jordan are a step above imo, but he's certainly somewhere in that next tier of 64' Russell, 87' Magic, 86' Bird, 94' Hakeem, 77' Walton, and 77' Kareem.


I think that although Lebron has improved as a player, he was "better" in 09 because there was pressure on him. There's not nearly as much pressure on him now and he's allowed to be more efficient because he's got so many great players around him.

But in terms of stuff like... posting up or shooting 3s he's better now.

However, I'm not putting this as a "best season" simply because of the help he has. It's like Lebron playground out there. It's a very good season, though, but I don't see it as an all time season when the whole team is playing out of their mind. Unless people want to give LeBron credit for that. heh.


-Smak

[The Choken One]

Behind Kobe, the biggest warrior the game of basketball has ever seen. Goes out on the court with a torn achilles...LeBron would of been crying on the sideline.

Sad, sad day.

[ILLsmak]

Lebron is playing with some good talent but is he playing with anybody on Kareems level?

Is this HEAT team as deep as all of the 80's Celtics teams? 86 Celtics are considered one of the greatest TEAMS of all time, not just because of Bird but because of the numerous other all stars/talent they had on that team.

Both Bird & Magic won at least one title without winning a FMVP, which goes to show what kind of talent both players had around them. This is something you will never be able to say about Lebron.

Double post. It could have been said if they won in 11... heh.

How quickly people forget. I think D Wade is a Finals MVP caliber player, still...

-Smak

[pauk]

I am not sure, he did some great things in the regular season for Cleveland aswell.

Statistically i am not really sure if its his best either, its arguable, but he is playing greater than ever right now ability wise so for me its logical to believe if he was in Cleveland (ie. role players around him, not having to share the ball with 2 stars, more usage/minutes/responsibility) he would probably have his best statistical season.

[Ancient Legend]

In recent times I can think of these as better individual seasons in terms of overall stats i.e. no weaknesses such as Shaq's or Duncan's free throw shooting:

Michael Jordan 88-89: 32.5 ppg 8.0 rpg 8.0 apg 2.9 spg .538% fg .850 ft%

Larry Bird 84-85.......: 28.7 ppg 10.5rpg 6.6 apg 1.6 spg .522% fg .882 ft% (MVP)

Larry Bird 87-88.......: 30.0 ppg 9.3 rpg 6.1 apg 1.5 spg .517% fg .916 ft%

LeBron James 12-13..: 26.8 ppg 8.0 rpg 7.3 apg 1.7 spg . 565% fg .753 ft%

Also Hakeem in 94-95 had a couple monster seasons offensively and defensively, where he averaged 27 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3.5 bpg and 2 spg on high% fg and around 75% ft.

[pauk]

Statistically think Lebrons best was the 30-7-9 season, less accurate FG/3PT compared to today, but ~30 points with ~9 assists is easily his most offensive accountable season.

[Hoopz2332]

Lebron has had better raw numbers but this season is an another level eff wise:bowdown:

[Quintilianus]

This is not LeBron's best season.
With that being said, it's probably around top 40

[SilkkTheShocker]

Arguably the best.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's the best I've ever seen him play. Better than 2009, and 2010.

[Pointguard]

There were some real unique things in the merit column like him:

*leading the league in points in the paint
*mixed in with him hitting at least 1 three per game and at a 40% clip
*the winning streak
*arguably one of the best all around game seasons ever
*really played all of the court positions
*the high assist and rebound numbers
*some record for high percentage games in a row
*I can only recall one game where he scored less than 20 but it might be two
*I can only recall very few 40 point games. His model of consistency is crazy.
*best leading role in a sports video :lol
*great judgment in general
*Shined bright when no other star was able to shine
*Insane efficiency
*Capacity to do everything at very high levels except FT's.

Literally, if all things considered (all around game). Its among the best seasons ever for sure.

[eSOL]

Behind Kobe, the biggest warrior the game of basketball has ever seen. Goes out on the court with a torn achilles...LeBron would of been crying on the sideline.

Sad, sad day.


Holy shit bro im suprised your still able to breathe with Kobe's dick and balls getting juggled in your mouth.


Your username suits you


Your a sad bitch dude.

[AngelEyes]

In recent times I can think of these as better individual seasons in terms of overall stats i.e. no weaknesses such as Shaq's or Duncan's free throw shooting:

Michael Jordan 88-89: 32.5 ppg 8.0 rpg 8.0 apg 2.9 spg .538% fg .850 ft%

Larry Bird 84-85.......: 28.7 ppg 10.5rpg 6.6 apg 1.6 spg .522% fg .882 ft% (MVP)

Larry Bird 87-88.......: 30.0 ppg 9.3 rpg 6.1 apg 1.5 spg .517% fg .916 ft%

LeBron James 12-13..: 26.8 ppg 8.0 rpg 7.3 apg 1.7 spg . 565% fg .753 ft%

Also Hakeem in 94-95 had a couple monster seasons offensively and defensively, where he averaged 27 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3.5 bpg and 2 spg on high% fg and around 75% ft.

Dear lord, I forgot how insane that season was for Bird.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't think '89 is Jordan's best from an ABILITY level.

He was a better player from '90 - '93, it was just a difference in context which allowed him to put up those numbers.

[All Net]

Only a fair few are clear cut better..

[LongLiveTheKing]

Behind Kobe, the biggest warrior the game of basketball has ever seen. Goes out on the court with a torn achilles...LeBron would of been crying on the sideline.

Sad, sad day.
I thought you told me you weren't a kobe stan lol?

[Suckafree]

This isn't especially relevant and I know David Robinson isn't one of ISHs favourite player, but if we're talking strictly regular seasons his 93-94 season was nuts. Especially in terms of all around play.

29.8/10.7/4.8/3.3/1.7

Too bad he could never get it done when it mattered most

[Nash]

Let's not forget that the game was at a much higher pace during the 80's which makes stats a bit more inflated.

Also, Lebron is a permiter player doing all of this at a big man efficiency which makes his accomplishments more impressive than for example Shaq.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If I had to rank LeBron's seasons of his career:

1) 2013 (best he's ever played, especially mentally)
2) 2012 (amazing playoff run)
3) 2009 (amazing playoff run)
4) 2010 (better ability than 2009, quit in playoffs)
5) 2011 (co-led Heat w/ Wade, quit in Finals)
6) 2008
7) 2006
8) 2007
9) 2005
10) 2004

[Graviton]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.
Excellent break down, specifically the bolded.

2012 saw him in the post more, and he quit the long ball. This year, especially with improved shooters around him giving him space to create, he can do it all ... drive off the dribble, post, ISO a little bit of mid range, and take the three ball when left open and hitting awesome percentages.

This combined with more confidence post championship, and better feel for the game when to assert his dominance, and be clutch. 2013 is easily the best season I've seen from LeBron.

[Hoopz2332]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.

:applause:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Real talk...if Lebron has his 09 season and wins 66 with role players and has his 13 season and wins 63-66 with more help...would 09 Lebron not win MVP?
better MVP case is not the same as better season. If it were ranked that way you could call '09 the GOAT season because i can't think of a season from another player that would have a better mvp case.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.


:applause:
You're definitely one of the best posters on here.

[Crafty]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.

:applause: :applause: :bowdown:

[LeBird]

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.

His continual improvement is to his credit. Look at his fg%...every year bar one he has improved...year on year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

[DMAVS41]

Real talk...if Lebron has his 09 season and wins 66 with role players and has his 13 season and wins 63-66 with more help...would 09 Lebron not win MVP?

He might win MVP, but not sure what relevance that his in comparing his individual season.

Lebron's efficiency and defense alone make him a different player now...He's just clearly a better player now than he was in 09...which is crazy to me because I honestly thought that was going to be the best of him.

And the difference isn't small either. He's noticeably a better overall player and having one of the finest seasons the game has ever seen.

So much so that he's going to be the unanimous MVP in a league where the 2nd best player in the NBA is averaging 28/8/5 on 51/41/91 splits on a 60 win team.

Think about that for a second. It's insane that Lebron is going to easily win MVP with how good Durant has been. Absolutely insane...and it's deserved as well. Lebron has been clearly better...

[D-Wade316]

1. Lebron 12-13
2. Lebron 11-12
3. Jordan 90-91
4. Shaq 99-00

[Boomerang]

Probably the best season of all time. Ok.. maybe tied with Jordan's 72-10. But this heat team was only a few games away

[Quintilianus]

This is the most ignorant thread ever.

[DMAVS41]

This is the most ignorant thread ever.

State your opinion on the matter please.

[Quintilianus]

State your opinion on the matter please.
Because of the "arguably best all time" thought.

Oscar 30-13-11, but that's empty stats, so i'd understand making a point for LBJ in this comparison.
38-19-5 by elgin.
35-17-5 by kareem
33-8-8-3 by MJ
32-6-6-3-1 by MJ, champ, mvp, fmvp, scoring champ
15-25-5 by BR, champ, mvp
24-14-5-3-2 by hakeem
27-12-4-4 by hakeem, champ, fmvp, mvp, dpoy,
26-10-7-2 by bird, MVP, FMVP, 3pt champ
35-6-6-3-2 by MJ, MVP, DPOY, scoring champion, ASG MVP, slam dunk champ
24-12-6-2 by magic, fmvp, mvp, champ.
50-26-2 by wilt, scoring champ
24-24-8 by wilt, champ, mvp, would've been a fmvp if it existed.
23-13-4-3 by TD, champ, fmvp, mvp,
32-16-3 by kareem, champ, fmvp, mvp,
27-8-6 by lbj - oly champ, fmvp, mvp, nba champ
30-14-4-3 by shaq - fmvp, mvp, champ. Shaq has like 5 seasons statistically better than this year's lbj.

Keep in mind that there's a lot more great seasons from the guys mentioned above, from lbj and there's a lot that I forgot to mention

I guess we're going by statistics, since LBJ haven't won anything in this season yet, so Kobe's 06, 03 seasons are honorable mentions, 34-11 by tiny, and many many many more.

This year's LBJ is not even close to the top 10.

[retaxis]

Because of the "arguably best all time" thought.

Oscar 30-13-11, but that's empty stats, so i'd understand making a point for LBJ in this comparison.
38-19-5 by elgin.
35-17-5 by kareem
33-8-8-3 by MJ
32-6-6-3-1 by MJ, champ, mvp, fmvp, scoring champ
15-25-5 by BR, champ, mvp
24-14-5-3-2 by hakeem
27-12-4-4 by hakeem, champ, fmvp, mvp, dpoy,
26-10-7-2 by bird, MVP, FMVP, 3pt champ
35-6-6-3-2 by MJ, MVP, DPOY, scoring champion, ASG MVP, slam dunk champ
24-12-6-2 by magic, fmvp, mvp, champ.
50-26-2 by wilt, scoring champ
24-24-8 by wilt, champ, mvp, would've been a fmvp if it existed.
23-13-4-3 by TD, champ, fmvp, mvp,
32-16-3 by kareem, champ, fmvp, mvp,
27-8-6 by lbj - oly champ, fmvp, mvp, nba champ
30-14-4-3 by shaq - fmvp, mvp, champ. Shaq has like 5 seasons statistically better than this year's lbj.

Keep in mind that there's a lot more great seasons from the guys mentioned above, from lbj and there's a lot that I forgot to mention

I guess we're going by statistics, since LBJ haven't won anything in this season yet, so Kobe's 06, 03 seasons are honorable mentions, 34-11 by tiny, and many many many more.

This year's LBJ is not even close to the top 10.
wrong we always going by comparison with every other player in the league

[SamuraiSWISH]

1. Lebron 12-13
2. Lebron 11-12
3. Jordan 90-91
4. Shaq 99-00
Homer Ass ... :oldlol:

MJ 1991
MJ 1992
MJ 1996
MJ 1998
Shaq 2000
Duncan 2003
LeBron 2012
LeBron 2013

We're talking MVPs, Finals MVPs, complete dominance, championship, and in some cases gold medals.

[DMAVS41]

Because of the "arguably best all time" thought.

Oscar 30-13-11, but that's empty stats, so i'd understand making a point for LBJ in this comparison.
38-19-5 by elgin.
35-17-5 by kareem
33-8-8-3 by MJ
32-6-6-3-1 by MJ, champ, mvp, fmvp, scoring champ
15-25-5 by BR, champ, mvp
24-14-5-3-2 by hakeem
27-12-4-4 by hakeem, champ, fmvp, mvp, dpoy,
26-10-7-2 by bird, MVP, FMVP, 3pt champ
35-6-6-3-2 by MJ, MVP, DPOY, scoring champion, ASG MVP, slam dunk champ
24-12-6-2 by magic, fmvp, mvp, champ.
50-26-2 by wilt, scoring champ
24-24-8 by wilt, champ, mvp, would've been a fmvp if it existed.
23-13-4-3 by TD, champ, fmvp, mvp,
32-16-3 by kareem, champ, fmvp, mvp,
27-8-6 by lbj - oly champ, fmvp, mvp, nba champ
30-14-4-3 by shaq - fmvp, mvp, champ. Shaq has like 5 seasons statistically better than this year's lbj.

Keep in mind that there's a lot more great seasons from the guys mentioned above, from lbj and there's a lot that I forgot to mention

I guess we're going by statistics, since LBJ haven't won anything in this season yet, so Kobe's 06, 03 seasons are honorable mentions, 34-11 by tiny, and many many many more.

This year's LBJ is not even close to the top 10.

We were talking about the regular season, obviously, as the playoffs haven't happened.

Of course, if Lebron plays worse and the Heat don't win in the playoffs...that will change things.

[lilgodfather1]

What I find truly amazing is that this version of LeBron has no true competition. In 2009 LeBron was fighting to be the best player in the league. Everyones below him now, and it's pretty clear. It certainly looks like LeBron has coasted for large parts of this year, where as '09 LeBron didn't have that luxury. If he was off for one game his team would lose, and Kobe would take the lead as best player.

I think if you put '09 LeBron in this league with '13 LeBron, '13 LeBron is going to try every single second he is on the court. He wouldn't have had MVP locked up two months ago, that much is for sure.

[DMAVS41]

What I find truly amazing is that this version of LeBron has no true competition. In 2009 LeBron was fighting to be the best player in the league. Everyones below him now, and it's pretty clear. It certainly looks like LeBron has coasted for large parts of this year, where as '09 LeBron didn't have that luxury. If he was off for one game his team would lose, and Kobe would take the lead as best player.

I think if you put '09 LeBron in this league with '13 LeBron, '13 LeBron is going to try every single second he is on the court. He wouldn't have had MVP locked up two months ago, that much is for sure.

Maybe not, but think about Durant for a second.

28/8/5 on 51/41/91 splits...60 or 61 win team most likely. And it's not even a question who MVP is.

Durant's season is historic. Only a handful of players have ever done what he's done from a standpoint of scoring and efficiency and winning.

And Lebron will most likely...and should win MVP unanimously.

[D-Wade316]

Kobe isn't competition to Lebron in 09. :oldlol: Wade and Paul were.

[lilgodfather1]

Maybe not, but think about Durant for a second.

28/8/5 on 51/41/91 splits...60 or 61 win team most likely. And it's not even a question who MVP is.

Durant's season is historic. Only a handful of players have ever done what he's done from a standpoint of scoring and efficiency and winning.

And Lebron will most likely...and should win MVP unanimously.
Yep, but there's not question who's better between them. At least if LeBron had some competition his competitive nature might kck in. There's like three people in the world that would even say Durant is LeBron's equal, let alone better than he is.

In 2009 LeBron had Kobe right on his heels coming off a finals appearance, and MVP. Wade also had his best season ever. Put '09 LeBron here, and '13 LeBron goes all out. '09 LeBron was better than Durant could ever dream of too.

[DMAVS41]

Yep, but there's not question who's better between them. At least if LeBron had some competition his competitive nature might kck in. There's like three people in the world that would even say Durant is LeBron's equal, let alone better than he is.

In 2009 LeBron had Kobe right on his heels coming off a finals appearance, and MVP. Wade also had his best season ever. Put '09 LeBron here, and '13 LeBron goes all out. '09 LeBron was better than Durant could ever dream of too.

Sure, he might have more pressure coming from other players...sure.

But 09 Lebron isn't in this class of Lebron as a player. The MVP might be closer based on circumstances, but this Lebron kind of shits on 09 Lebron on both ends. Which again, is remarkable given how great 09 Lebron was.

[lilgodfather1]

Sure, he might have more pressure coming from other players...sure.

But 09 Lebron isn't in this class of Lebron as a player. The MVP might be closer based on circumstances, but this Lebron kind of shits on 09 Lebron on both ends. Which again, is remarkable given how great 09 Lebron was.
That's what i'm trying to say. Having a true competitor to play against would bring out the best in him. Instead of him being at 27/8/7 he'd be at 30/8/8 on 60%. He'd try a lot harder.

[LAZERUSS]

If it continues as expected, with him winning the MVP and going on to win another ring, ...probably top-5.

[steve]

In recent times I can think of these as better individual seasons in terms of overall stats i.e. no weaknesses such as Shaq's or Duncan's free throw shooting:

Michael Jordan 88-89: 32.5 ppg 8.0 rpg 8.0 apg 2.9 spg .538% fg .850 ft%

Larry Bird 84-85.......: 28.7 ppg 10.5rpg 6.6 apg 1.6 spg .522% fg .882 ft% (MVP)

Larry Bird 87-88.......: 30.0 ppg 9.3 rpg 6.1 apg 1.5 spg .517% fg .916 ft%

LeBron James 12-13..: 26.8 ppg 8.0 rpg 7.3 apg 1.7 spg . 565% fg .753 ft%

Also Hakeem in 94-95 had a couple monster seasons offensively and defensively, where he averaged 27 ppg, 11 rpg, 5 apg, 3.5 bpg and 2 spg on high% fg and around 75% ft.

Something to consider when looking at those seasons in terms of base numbers, each of those teams played with a greater number of possessions than this year's Heat team. The '85 Celtics averaged about 102 possessions a game, the '88 Celtics averaged about 98 possessions a game, and '89 Bulls averaged about 97 possessions a game (all of which were below average in those seasons, but would lead the league today). By comparison, the Heat this season are averaging about 90.5 possessions game.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron is having the most efficient season I have ever witnessed.

27 PPG on 57% shooting, 40% from the 3 point line. (Has made over 100 threes).

7.3 APG
3.0 TPG (Career Low)

The only non C/PF to shoot such a high percentage while scoring over 25 points a game was Adrian Dantley, but Dantley never took a 3 point shot. To top everything off he is one of the best team/help defenders in the NBA.

Since the merger in 1977, the only players I would CONSIDER taking over 2013 LeBron are 1977 Kareem, early 90's MJ, '94 Hakeem, & '00 Shaq.

[Odinn]

LeBron is having the most efficient season I have ever witnessed.

27 PPG on 57% shooting, 40% from the 3 point line. (Has made over 100 threes).

7.3 APG (Career High)
3.0 TPG (Career Low)

The only non C/PF to shoot such a high percentage while scoring over 25 points a game was Adrian Dantley, but Dantley never took a 3 point shot. To top everything off he is one of the best team/help defenders in the NBA.

Since the merger in 1977, the only players I would CONSIDER taking over 2013 LeBron are 1977 Kareem, early 90's MJ, '94 Hakeem, & '00 Shaq.
He averaged 8.6 apg in 2009-10 season. Also he averaged 7.2 apg / 3.0 tpg in 2008-09 season.

---

LeBron's 2012-13 season will depend on how will he perform in the playoffs. If he doesn't perform better than 2012 playoffs in 2013 playoffs, it will be like his 2011-12 season. We will see about that. But my list is a little bit longer than yours;
1977 Kareem, 1980 Kareem, 1982 Moses, 1983 Moses, (1984 Bird), 1986 Bird, 1990 Jordan, 1991 Jordan, 1992 Jordan, 1993 Jordan, 1993 Hakeem, 1994 Hakeem, 1995 Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, 2001 Shaq, 2002 Shaq, 2003 Duncan.


When it comes to all-time talk, I think he gets overrated. I mean there is no team can beat Miami Heat in a best of 7 series, there is no competition for the title and there is no competition for 'the best player' and this is more related to other players in the L compared to LeBron's quailty. Is there a span LeBron can be the best player in the L without a doubt?

[wfb]

He averaged 8.6 apg in 2009-10 season. Also he averaged 7.2 apg / 3.0 tpg in 2008-09 season.

---

LeBron's 2012-13 season will depend on how will he perform in the playoffs. If he doesn't perform better than 2012 playoffs in 2013 playoffs, it will be like his 2011-12 season. We will see about that. But my list is a little bit longer than yours;
1977 Kareem, 1980 Kareem, 1982 Moses, 1983 Moses, (1984 Bird), 1986 Bird, 1990 Jordan, 1991 Jordan, 1992 Jordan, 1993 Jordan, 1993 Hakeem, 1994 Hakeem, 1995 Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, 2001 Shaq, 2002 Shaq, 2003 Duncan.


When it comes to all-time talk, I think he gets overrated. I mean there is no team can beat Miami Heat in a best of 7 series, there is no competition for the title and there is no competition for 'the best player' and this is more related to other players in the L compared to LeBron's quailty. Is there a span LeBron can be the best player in the L without a doubt?

WTF am I reading? :biggums:

[1987_Lakers]

You are on crack if you think peak Moses Malone was better than current LeBron James.

[NauruDude]

definitely in the top 5 of all team baylor jordan duncan above him

[K Xerxes]

LeBron's 2012-13 season will depend on how will he perform in the playoffs. If he doesn't perform better than 2012 playoffs in 2013 playoffs, it will be like his 2011-12 season. We will see about that. But my list is a little bit longer than yours;
1977 Kareem, 1980 Kareem, 1982 Moses, 1983 Moses, (1984 Bird), 1986 Bird, 1990 Jordan, 1991 Jordan, 1992 Jordan, 1993 Jordan, 1993 Hakeem, 1994 Hakeem, 1995 Hakeem, 2000 Shaq, 2001 Shaq, 2002 Shaq, 2003 Duncan.

If LeBron had his 2012 playoffs this year, on top of his historic regular season, I don't know where it'd rank on my list... but it'd be close to the top for sure. He had historic performances in Inidiana and Boston with Bosh out for a lot of the games and Wade hobbling. People love to bring out that LeBron couldn't win without two stars; yes, that is true, but has the amount of help he was given by these two players really looked at? Because the only time I remember either having 'great' performances was Wade at the end of the Indiana series.

[Odinn]

WTF am I reading? :biggums:
Aside from now. He is currently the best player and it's undisputed. But I can not name a span that LeBron can be the best player without a doubt.

Let's go back in the time.
Prime Kobe
Prime Duncan and Prime Garnett
Prime Shaq
Jordan
Prime Hakeem and Prime Barkley
Peak Jordan
Prime Magic
Prime Bird
Prime Moses
Kareem for the entire '70s and also Julius Erving
Wilt Chamberlain & Bill Russell & Jerry West & Oscar Robertson

There wasn't a single span in the history that has 1 or 2 top 15-20 candidate(s). And I do not think Durant is a strong candidate.

[Quintilianus]

You are on crack if you think peak Moses Malone was better than current LeBron James.
25-18-2-2-1
26-15-2
28-15-2-2
31-15-2-2
25-15-2.
You know whose numbers is that? Moses.
You know what's even more special? That's five seasons in a row.
You know what's even more special than that? He's the best offensive rebounder ever.

[Odinn]

You are on crack if you think peak Moses Malone was better than current LeBron James.
I do not think exactly. But he has a case. And let's not act like peak Moses doesn't have a case.

My arguments against LeBron;
- The rules that highly LeBron benefits from them.
- He plays at PF but big men are just the weakest era in the history. Can you think of LeBron playing at PF in early 2000s and still being this good/effective against prime Duncan, prime Garnett, prime Webber, early-prime Nowitzki? Webber and Nowitzki were not defensive beasts but they would put some serious pressure on the other end.
- There wasn't a single span in the history that has 1 or 2 top 15-20 candidate(s). And I do not think Durant is a strong candidate.

Other than now, LeBron ain't gonna average 27/8/7 on 56.5%. His volume goes down if he wants to keep his efficiency. Or his efficiency goes down if he wants to keep his scoring volume.

[1987_Lakers]

25-18-2-2-1
26-15-2
28-15-2-2
31-15-2-2
25-15-2.
You know whose numbers is that? Moses.
You know what's even more special? That's five seasons in a row.
You know what's even more special than that? He's the best offensive rebounder ever.

The fact that he wasn't a defensive anchor as a center & was a bit of a black hole on offense is a turnoff to me. I'll take LeBron over Moses without hesitation.

[Quintilianus]

The fact that he wasn't a defensive anchor as a center & was a bit of a black hole on offense is a turnoff to me. I'll take LeBron over Moses without hesitation.
He was pretty good defensively, not a shot blocker, but held his own. Yes, he wasn't a willing passer, but when you're that good inside, it should be forgiven

[DatAsh]

LeBron is having the most efficient season I have ever witnessed.

27 PPG on 57% shooting, 40% from the 3 point line. (Has made over 100 threes).

7.3 APG
3.0 TPG (Career Low)

The only non C/PF to shoot such a high percentage while scoring over 25 points a game was Adrian Dantley, but Dantley never took a 3 point shot. To top everything off he is one of the best team/help defenders in the NBA.

Since the merger in 1977, the only players I would CONSIDER taking over 2013 LeBron are 1977 Kareem, early 90's MJ, '94 Hakeem, & '00 Shaq.

Why 77' Kareem, but not 77' Walton? Most people at the time thought of Walton as the better player that year.

[DatAsh]

He was pretty good defensively, not a shot blocker, but held his own. Yes, he wasn't a willing passer, but when you're that good inside, it should be forgiven

How old are you?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

LeBron is having the most efficient season I have ever witnessed.

27 PPG on 57% shooting, 40% from the 3 point line. (Has made over 100 threes).

7.3 APG
3.0 TPG (Career Low)

The only non C/PF to shoot such a high percentage while scoring over 25 points a game was Adrian Dantley, but Dantley never took a 3 point shot. To top everything off he is one of the best team/help defenders in the NBA.

Since the merger in 1977, the only players I would CONSIDER taking over 2013 LeBron are 1977 Kareem, early 90's MJ, '94 Hakeem, & '00 Shaq.

:applause:

[1987_Lakers]

Why 77' Kareem, but not 77' Walton? Most people at the time thought of Walton as the better player that year.

I have no problem people debating between '77 Walton & current LeBron. Walton was amazing that year, better than any season Moses Malone produced.

[Nevaeh]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.

Great post, and you can definitely see his understanding of the game improve from season to season. Even in 2011 you could tell that he was trying not to step on D-wade's toes, so to speak, by not totally taking the leadership role. It was as if he was waiting for D-wade's nod first, before Lebron fully took over. That would explain why he played like he did in their first finals together; a bit of a communication issue, I think.

With that, Lebron is an outright BEAST in 2k13, compared to '12. If he's driving toward the hoop, just move out the way, man. I always loved his B-ball IQ, and hope younger upcoming players can see how many ways you can dominate games besides only scoring, based on Lebron's blueprint.

[tmacattack33]

Best regular season I've seen since either himself the year he took Cleveland to win 66 games or Shaq in LA in the early 2000's.

[Donkey4trading]

What Lebron is doing this season is on the bring of impossible..if he's able to win another ring on top of this historic season..

Its a shame that an 8th seed in the west gets more pub than possibly the GOAT have his best season to date

[Pointguard]

Stats aside, anyone who watched lot of Heat games should have seen his impact on the court. Just him being there and running the offense, leading the defense, controling the flow of the game and attacking the paint was a huge part of their success. I have never seen any other player have the game completely in his hands like that, even when Heat are down by 10 or even 20, you have this feeling that Lebron will steadily lead them back and they will win by entering a higher gear while the opposing team blew their load fighting them with 110% effort for 3 quarters. Miami is like a boxer that takes some hits early on, fooling his opponent into thinking he "almost has it", but in the end he is exhausted near the championship rounds and gets knocked out.

Lebron can attack the rim and get points 90% of the time, but he never gets selfish and dominates the ball looking to score, he always keeps moving the ball and looking for the best shot, if they miss 2-3 jumpers in a row is when he attacks the rim to get some points and keep the defense guessing, then their 3 point shots open up and they already win the game with the Big 3 playing out there like it's practice, no rush, no intense effort, it looks like a pick up game of pros vs street ballers.

Now the scary part comes when they enter the playoffs and play intense basketball for the whole game, no team can handle their all around system, and they sure as hell can't handle Lebron dissecting their team like a surgeon. It's beautiful basketball.

For that reason I would say he is having his best season, it's even better than last year when he played through the post, took less 3 pointers and dominated the paint. Now on top of living in the paint he is actually a GREAT 3 point shooter and now has that weapon to throw at the defense. Guarding him just keeps getting harder and harder, it's just unreal how he keeps improving on GOAT type seasons over and over.
This. Among several of your late great post...

Lebron's is not only the game's most versatile player ever, Lebron has to be the only player ever, in 2013, that can outplay every player, in their position, while keeping the integrity of that position in tack. He also makes great decisions and is the best team player as well. Like you said, they can be down, by 20 in the second half with a 22 game streak on the line and they do not panic. Lebron, takes the weight on his shoulder but keeps his shooters sharp/relaxed/ready/ and involved. He leads the defense into going all out. He makes the exciting play that energizes the team. His defense to offense is the best in the league.

His mental game of incorporating his inside/outside game, his teammates inside/out game by leading his players to their hotspots with pinpoint passes, his great control of pace, the domination of the running game or the half court game which no other player I can think of can claim to his level. His assist are usually 2 alley oops, 3 three pointers and then whatever for the next two. He's not going to beat you himself, he's going to beat you with the choices YOU make to defend him... and he uses that to Feed his teammates. You got to love a guy that makes bread out of the guys who try to stop him.

Lebron's selflessness has a lot of effect on the other players. Battier, Allen, Rio, Bird Miller and Haslem all having a winning swagger about them because even they feel like part of process. When you think about it that's a lot of guys with big confidence. He just has the best mix of play than anybody I ever seen. His argument for greatest year is that he is one of the best team players and individual players at the same time. One of the Best offensive and defensive player at the same time. The best scorer near the basket and one of the best at hitting threes. One of the best scorers and the games most versatile players as well. One of the most productive and efficient players at the same time as well as being deadly at every point 24 feet and in. One of the most dominant years ever while still showing a lot of selflessness at the same time. Nobody else can claim a year like this.

If you are talking about composite play, all around play, he has to be top three year without question and real challenge for the top spot. Its really hard to have the balance he has had.

[LAZERUSS]

You are on crack if you think peak Moses Malone was better than current LeBron James.

Lebron is having one of the greatest seasons in history, to be sure, but to minimize what Moses did at his peak is ridiculous. At his peak he was abusing a 30 year old KAJ, and did so for the majority of their head-to-heads. One could make a case that if KAJ is regarded among the goats, then Moses should be slotted ahead of him.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron is having one of the greatest seasons in history, to be sure, but to minimize what Moses did at his peak is ridiculous. At his peak he was abusing a 30 year old KAJ, and did so for the majority of their head-to-heads. One could make a case that if KAJ is regarded among the goats, then Moses should be slotted ahead of him.

The other guy was on crack, you're on crystal meth.

[LAZERUSS]

The other guy was on crack, you're on crystal meth.

You do realize that Moses absolutely owned KAJ right? I mean it wasn't even close.

[1987_Lakers]

You do realize that Moses absolutely owned KAJ right? I mean it wasn't even close.

You do realize that Robert Parish owned Moses every time they matched up right? Does that mean Parish was a better player than Moses? Of course not.

[Electric Slide]

I'll wait until the playoffs before I rank Lebron's season. That is where legends make their mark anyways.

[LAZERUSS]

You do realize that Robert Parish owned Moses every time they matched up right? Does that mean Parish was a better player than Moses? Of course not.

Prove it. I took a quick look at the boxscores from their h2h's from 78-79 thru 84-85 (Moses prime), and Moses outplayed Parish in nearly every game, with several 35-38 point games against him. And he waxed him in the 81 playoffs despite having no surrounding talent.

[LAZERUSS]

You do realize that Robert Parish owned Moses every time they matched up right? Does that mean Parish was a better player than Moses? Of course not.

Moses, from 78-79 thru 84-85 just overwhelmed his opposing centers...including KAJ, whom he outscored in two-thirds of their h2hs, and outrebounded him 80% of them. And in their post-season h2hs, it was even more one-sided (and included going 6-1 in w-l record against him too.) And, yes, Parish received his butt-beatings just as much as everyone else did.

[LAZERUSS]

Dear lord, I forgot how insane that season was for Bird.

Trouble was, while that 87-88 season may have been Bird's greatest statistical regular season, his post-season play was probably his worst. His series against the Pistons was just awful.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MVP, Finals MVP, Championship

'91 MJ
'92 MJ
'94 Hakeem
'96 MJ
'98 MJ
2000 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2012 LeBron
2013 LeBron ???

2008 Kobe JUST missed the list of having one of these epic seasons of complete domination.

Look at the names on this list. It's like a whose "who" of a good chunk of the ten best basketball players of all-time. Multi-time winners with seasons like this are pretty much a lock for top five all-time.

[Simple Jack]

MVP, Finals MVP, Championship

'91 MJ
'92 MJ
'94 Hakeem
'96 MJ
'98 MJ
2000 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2012 LeBron
2013 LeBron ???

2008 Kobe JUST missed the list of having one of these epic seasons of complete domination.

Look at the names on this list. It's like a whose "who" of a good chunk of the ten best basketball players of all-time. Multi-time winners with seasons like this are pretty much a lock for top five all-time.

Remember when you used to hate LeBron and then stopped posting under your old account?

[BigDipper13]

top 10

[Lebron23]

top 10


Welcome to the forum. Nice avatar.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Remember when you used to hate LeBron and then stopped posting under your old account?
I didn't stop posting under my old account willingly. I lost my login info, and had to create a new username that pays homage to my original. As if my current screen name isn't completely acknowledging the fact.

I still don't "like" LeBron. The problems I had with him was the route he chose to take his career. I had problems with him quitting on teams in the playoffs, and Finals. Much of 2011, he deserved my hate. He surprised me quite a bit last year when his rep was on the line v.s. Boston. I've always given him credit for his talents.

[BoutPractice]

It's way up there.
But the eternal problem is this: while it's undeniable that there's a huge gap this season between LeBron and the rest of the league, there's more than one way of seeing it. Is it LeBron making the level of play in the NBA look small by comparison, or the level of play in the NBA making LeBron look big by comparison? It was the same with Shaq in his dominant run.

[DMAVS41]

It's way up there.
But the eternal problem is this: while it's undeniable that there's a huge gap this season between LeBron and the rest of the league, there's more than one way of seeing it. Is it LeBron making the level of play in the NBA look small by comparison, or the level of play in the NBA making LeBron look big by comparison? It was the same with Shaq in his dominant run.

Well, it has been kind of an odd year with a lot of injuries and some of the best players playing 2nd fiddle. Westbrook, Howard, and Wade are all elite players...yet they have been 2nd options all year. Rose is hurt. Kobe is now out. Dirk injured off and on all year...etc.

But I have to keep repeating this. Durant is putting up one of the finest offensive seasons ever. 28/8/5 on 51/41/91 shooting. That is absurd...and his team is going to win 60 plus games.

For Lebron to be unanimous MVP in a year in which the unanimous 2nd best player is having his finest seaosn (and a historic one at that)...is a testament to his greatness.

[AngelEyes]

There's no point ranking it until he wins the championship and possible finals MVP. If you're just talking about regular season then it was one of the best in recent memory. Hard to compare across eras considering how much the game has changed, but his regular season has been about as dominant as it gets for a forward.

[plowking]

The only other players I can remember getting this type of praise and talk in terms of domination are Bird and Jordan. Shaq is a given, but is it me, or did he always get slighted in these types of talks?

I'd rank this season of his as good as any of Jordan and Bird's, but still behind Shaq.

[AngelEyes]

The only other players I can remember getting this type of praise and talk in terms of domination are Bird and Jordan. Shaq is a given, but is it me, or did he always get slighted in these types of talks?

I'd rank this season of his as good as any of Jordan and Bird's, but still behind Shaq.

I don't think so. At the time, during the three peat, I remember some pundits questioning if he was the best player ever and the most dominant player ever. A lot of his aura seemed to dissipate in the years that followed. At the time however it felt similar to that of early 90's Jordan where he just absolutely owned the league.

[necya]

insecure much?

Lebron is having a historic season and if he wins another title this year will have had the most dominant 2 year stretch of any player in the past 16 years

what is historic is the level of the league. add to that, the best player in the league joined a top 2 SG and a top 5 PF while all being in their prime. now he can stat pad quietly cause he knows people care about numbers. not a critic, in fact i don't care, but obvious is obvious.
the Bulls without Rose, the Pacers ? the knicks led by Melo and Smith ? lol the league just sucks.

[ripthekik]

what is historic is the level of the league. add to that, the best player in the league joined a top 2 SG and a top 5 PF while all being in their prime. now he can stat pad quietly cause he knows people care about numbers. not a critic, in fact i don't care, but obvious is obvious.
the Bulls without Rose, the Pacers ? the knicks led by Melo and Smith ? lol the league just sucks.
great post.

[WindmiLL]

what is historic is the level of the league. add to that, the best player in the league joined a top 2 SG and a top 5 PF while all being in their prime. now he can stat pad quietly cause he knows people care about numbers. not a critic, in fact i don't care, but obvious is obvious.
the Bulls without Rose, the Pacers ? the knicks led by Melo and Smith ? lol the league just sucks.



great post.


Yea, yea the league just sucks now and your boy Kobe almost missed the playoffs with 3 hofers by his side in such a weak league, god damnnn his all time status just dropped for 20 spots :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LeBird]

LeBron is having the most efficient season I have ever witnessed.

27 PPG on 57% shooting, 40% from the 3 point line. (Has made over 100 threes).

7.3 APG
3.0 TPG (Career Low)

The only non C/PF to shoot such a high percentage while scoring over 25 points a game was Adrian Dantley, but Dantley never took a 3 point shot. To top everything off he is one of the best team/help defenders in the NBA.

Since the merger in 1977, the only players I would CONSIDER taking over 2013 LeBron are 1977 Kareem, early 90's MJ, '94 Hakeem, & '00 Shaq.

Er, Bird? 30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting; 2.8 TPG.

[Jlamb47]

top 10-15

[alec613]

Barkley already has him in his top 10

[willds09]

any season for lebron after 2010 ranks low for me:no:

[Hoopz2332]

Yea, yea the league just sucks now and your boy Kobe almost missed the playoffs with 3 hofers by his side in such a weak league, god damnnn his all time status just dropped for 20 spots :roll: :roll: :roll:


:applause: :roll:

[inclinerator]

lebron is kinda unfair with that passing ability, i could see why magic dominated with passing and controlling the game alone without even scoring

[Hoopz2332]

But I have to keep repeating this. Durant is putting up one of the finest offensive seasons ever. 28/8/5 on 51/41/91 shooting. That is absurd...and his team is going to win 60 plus games.

For Lebron to be unanimous MVP in a year in which the unanimous 2nd best player is having his finest seaosn (and a historic one at that)...is a testament to his greatness.


You hit on the point alot of people are missing. Lebron has been so great he's making Durant's historic level of greatness seem ehh. You have people talking about melo's recent hot stretch and even with that, his overall numbers are just avg, not even in Durant's league

melo

28.7 ppg

6.9 rbs

2.6 ast

.379 3pt%

.449 FG%


http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1975/carmelo-anthony

^^:coleman:

this really put's into context just how great lebron has been

[chips93]

But I have to keep repeating this. Durant is putting up one of the finest offensive seasons ever. 28/8/5 on 51/41/91 shooting. That is absurd...and his team is going to win 60 plus games.

using TS%, both lebron and kd are really close, so scoring wise, lebron is right there with durant

[Quintilianus]

Durant's season is not historic.

[DMAVS41]

Durant's season is not historic.

Yes it is. How many 50/40/90 seasons have been done in the history of the league?

[Quintilianus]

Yes it is. How many 50/40/90 seasons have been done in the history of the league?
If that's a direct question, I think none.
If that's a rhetoric question how the hell is that historic? He's shooting like 17 fga a game, if he shot like 21-22 on that efficiency yeah, you may have a point. He has already admitted that he keeps track of his FG% at all times, just like wade and lebron, so if kobe says, that he's gunning for a 40 ppg season, but everybody sees that he's doing bad decisions while doing so is that historic or is that stupid?

[arifgokcen]

Er, Bird? 30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting; 2.8 TPG.
Dude how many times i am gonna repeat myself i dont know but

PACEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


and

DEFENSEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Raymone]

Top 1 range.

[DMAVS41]

If that's a direct question, I think none.
If that's a rhetoric question how the hell is that historic? He's shooting like 17 fga a game, if he shot like 21-22 on that efficiency yeah, you may have a point. He has already admitted that he keeps track of his FG% at all times, just like wade and lebron, so if kobe says, that he's gunning for a 40 ppg season, but everybody sees that he's doing bad decisions while doing so is that historic or is that stupid?

Wait a second.

Are you trying to imply that it's bad to be more efficient and take less shots?

I will never understand the argument used against players that follows..."yea, but he cares about his fg%"

You do understand that that is simply saying..."yea, but that guys cares when he makes ore misses shots"

Holy shit...the shit never ends here. You never know what the morons will say next.

[Quintilianus]

Wait a second.

Are you trying to imply that it's bad to be more efficient and take less shots?

I will never understand the argument used against players that follows..."yea, but he cares about his fg%"

You do understand that that is simply saying..."yea, but that guys cares when he makes ore misses shots"

Holy shit...the shit never ends here. You never know what the morons will say next.
Do you understand that he obviously said he doesn't take heaves from the midcourt at the end of quarters just so save his FG%? What if those possible three-points hypothetically could've won the game? This is bad, very bad, it can't have a negative effect as the buzzer goes out anyway and the other team can't get a shot either.
And you see him making bad decisions on offense all the time, he often doesn't try to attack the rim when he has a 50/50 chance, and every coach wouldn't like that.
Hate this, when eras shift again and people forget about stats, we'll have top-notch basketball back

[SamuraiSWISH]

The only other players I can remember getting this type of praise and talk in terms of domination are Bird and Jordan.

I'd rank this season of his as good as any of Jordan and Bird's, but still behind Shaq.
You weren't old enough to remember praise of Larry Bird while he played. Stop it.

Jordan has had better seasons than Bron's current 2013 or last year's 2012 campaign. And Bird had a season or two better as well.

LOL @ insinuating it's Shaq and then "the rest". Shaq's most dominant was the one season he was truly motivated, the 2000 season. He's up there with Jordan and Bird, as well. But he isn't head and shoulders above.

Especially not when he played with Kobe in 2001 and 2002, who was arguably as important to the team as him. And was putting up numbers of like 29 / 5 / 5

Jordan didn't have that from '90 - '93. Even LeBron, has had two guys on his team putting up great numbers that aid in the easier nature of getting his stats.

[Rysio]

somewhere around adrian dantley's mid 80s seasons just much less efficient.

[Heavincent]

Yes it is. How many 50/40/90 seasons have been done in the history of the league?

Jose Calderon the legend :bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jose Calderon the legend :bowdown:
DMAVS41 and all his brothers (Simple Jack) and others are a joke.

:oldlol:

[Electric Slide]

If Lebron explodes in the post-season, this could easily be a top 5 season.

The fact that he coasted somewhat in the regular season makes his season not possible to be the greatest.

I think next season, he could have the greatest season ever especially with the addition of Andersen. The Heat have been unstoppable since he joined.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If Lebron explodes in the post-season, this could easily be a top 5 season.

The fact that he coasted somewhat in the regular season makes his season not possible to be the greatest.

I think next season, he could have the greatest season ever especially with the addition of Andersen. The Heat have been unstoppable since he joined.
This is the most exciting possibility. The Heat as a team coasted along with LeBron. Both LeBron and the Heat during this season, the Heat during that amazing winning streak and Bron during his streak in February showed glimpses of their potential.

If LeBron has a stunning and dominant playoffs. And IMO hopefully an even more impressive Finals, something legendary from a Finals performer that we haven't seen since Wade, Shaq, Jordan ... it could vault this season into the basketball heavens.

I'm fairly certain he's winning his 4th MVP this year, and he's only 28. Kind of ridiculous at such a young age.

[Electric Slide]

This is the most exciting possibility. The Heat as a team coasted along with LeBron. Both LeBron and the Heat during this season, the Heat during that amazing winning streak and Bron during his streak in February showed glimpses of their potential.

If LeBron has a stunning and dominant playoffs. And IMO hopefully an even more impressive Finals, something legendary from a Finals performer that we haven't seen since Wade, Shaq, Jordan ... it could vault this season into the basketball heavens.

I'm fairly certain he's winning his 4th MVP this year, and he's only 28. Kind of ridiculous at such a young age.
He is pretty much already in the heavens. I think it's practically inevitable the Heat will win unless they get injuries from either Lebron or Bosh.

If Lebron won it all in 2009 or 2010 though, that would have been the greatest season ever. Last season was a pretty good season, but it was a lockout season and he is not as good individually as he currently is.

[Simple Jack]

DMAVS41 and all his brothers (Simple Jack) and others are a joke.

:oldlol:

Says the guy who made it a full time job to hate on LeBron for the most minor of things.

I'd love to dig up all your salty ass posts about LeBron but I just don't have time.

And LOL at me being DMAVS.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Says the guy who made it a full time job to hate on LeBron for the most minor of things.
First of all, you're confusing me with ripthekik. I didn't waist precious moments of my life. I commented on things as they happened.


I'd love to dig up all your salty ass posts about LeBron but I just don't have time.
Find them, I know what I said. I'm not running from it either. So who cares? I'm not professing to be a LeBron James diehard fan, who has always been with him. I still have problems with the guy.

You also have only been here since 2009. So I'm sure you missed the vast majority of my thoughts on LeBron pre decision.

And the things I got on him for the past couple years ... his hoe like behavior in 2010, 2011, and much of 2012?

Quitting on teams, franchises, promises, stacking the deck, lack of work ethic, no self accountability, blaming fans, pouting and THROWING an NBA Finals series? Utterly deserved.

When I gave him hate, it was deserved. When I give him praise, it's deserved.

Are you insinuating I have to hate him 24/7? That I can't have an objective view of him? That my opinion can't be constantly evolving along with him? He proved me wrong multiple times late in 2012. I'm willing to admit when I'm proven wrong.

You just take offense because you were on his jock. Everyone with a brain knew when LeBron was being stupid the past several years. I just called him out on it. Big deal. Only a stan would've took offense to it. And act like my thoughts can't change, as James himself changes.


He is pretty much already in the heavens.
Not just yet.

I'm talking about this individual season. I want to see some amazing performances out of LeBron.

But, they might not need it to get past the competition they will face. Unless they have an epic duel with NYC or Indiana in the ECF.


If Lebron won it all in 2009 or 2010 though, that would have been the greatest season ever.
2009 blame Mo Williams.

2010 blame LeBron for being a bitch. He quit before he had the chance to do it.


Last season was a pretty good season, but it was a lockout season and he is not as good individually as he currently is.
Agreed. That game 6 v.s. Boston, and what he did in the Olympics was crazy, though.

[LeBird]

Dude how many times i am gonna repeat myself i dont know but

PACEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

and

DEFENSEEEEEEEEEEEE

LOL, wut?

And how about era? Bird dominated in the toughest era in NBA history. In an era where it wasn't uncommon to walk away with a black eye or bleeding. As much as I rate Lebron, he is in the right era because that era was for men. If Bird was around now with the soft rules, soft competition, emphasis on 3s, lack of dominant post players... he'd be a walking 35/13/8.

[Simple Jack]

Find them, I know what I said. I'm not running from it either. So who cares? I'm not professing to be a LeBron James diehard fan, who has always been with him. I still have problems with the guy.

You also have only been here since 2009. So I'm sure you missed the vast majority of my thoughts on LeBron pre decision.

And the things I got on him for the past couple years ... his hoe like behavior in 2010, 2011, and much of 2012?

Quitting on teams, franchises, promises, stacking the deck, lack of work ethic, no self accountability, blaming fans, pouting and THROWING an NBA Finals series? Utterly deserved.

When I gave him hate, it was deserved. When I give him praise, it's deserved.

Are you insinuating I have to hate him 24/7? That I can't have an objective view of him? That my opinion can't be constantly evolving along with him? He proved me wrong multiple times late in 2012. I'm willing to admit when I'm proven wrong.

You just take offense because you were on his jock. Everyone with a brain knew when LeBron was being stupid the past several years. I just called him out on it. Big deal. Only a stan would've took offense to it. And act like my thoughts can't change, as James himself changes.

You know what you posted. And your insecure response further proves my point.

Ripthekik is a troll; you weren't trolling. You actually believed the nonsense you wrote.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You know what you posted. And your insecure response further proves my point.

Ripthekik is a troll; you weren't trolling. You actually believed the nonsense you wrote.
:oldlol:

[chosen_wun]

This season when LeBron James plays at his worst he is still just as impactful as Blake Griffin is nightly.

[Simple Jack]

You were "TheSwagg3r" too right? If so, this is gold.

[Simple Jack]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6167120&postcount=77

Dude quoting stuff like the above in agreement.

I looked through 1 thread and you already mentioned LeBron being so severely limited in skill and on such a noticeable decline that it was a shame to consider him the best player in the league.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6167107&postcount=75

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6167073&postcount=71

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5218799&postcount=68

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5218821&postcount=75

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5218558&postcount=24

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5218501&postcount=14

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=202039

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5077578&postcount=3

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6102136&postcount=17


Your Oscar Robertson, Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, and LeBron James of the world are great all around players. But they are at heart betas ... complementary pieces. They aren't the type to step on the throats when the game is on the line.


I mean, that was one page on google search. Do you really want more? I didn't even look at your other accounts (Money 23, etc...).

You really stand by just "telling it like it is"? Acting like the dude didn't have what it took to win a ring and would be a career loser, while laughing about it and taunting posters who thought otherwise? This is supposed to be some objectiveness?

:coleman:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I mean, that was one page on google search. Do you really want more? I didn't even look at your other accounts (Money 23, etc...)
Until game 6 v.s. Boston, that's exactly what he was ... a do it all, Scottie Pippen type who didn't step up when the game was on the line.

2011 Finals further validated that and so on ... To act otherwise is ridiculous. He was losing consistently, and was bowing out in two consecutive playoffs by NOT EVEN TRYING. That is very indicative of a loser.

2012, I freely admit he changed my perception. And no, I'm not the swagg3r, I believe that was one of many RG accounts. I've used Samurai Swoosh, Money 23, and this one.

That was objective analysis at said time for me. Maybe slightly more heavy handed due to obvious dislike after the bitch like decision, and the way he acted all through out 2011. Things change, as does perception. LeBron made great strides in 2012 to prove he was finally a winner. Adding elements to his game, etc.

LeBron WAS on the decline athletically in 2011. It was noticeable. Ask Indian Guy ... one of the biggest LeBron fans here. He said the SAME thing. And yes, his skill set was limited. Until he added a post game, and more consistent mid range game was not so coincidentally the first year he won a ring. He was being lazy with his game until 2012. Coasting on natural ability and athleticism.

[Simple Jack]

Until game 6 v.s. Boston, that's exactly what he was ... a do it all, Scottie Pippen type who didn't step up when the game was on the line.

So in one year, he completely revamped his game and went from a choking loser side-kick, to a player who you now think will finish as one of the best of all-time/surpass Kobe with a ring this year? Damn, what a turn around.


2011 Finals further validated that and so on ... To act otherwise is ridiculous. He was losing consistently, and was bowing out in two consecutive playoffs by NOT EVEN TRYING. That is very indicative of a loser.


When exactly did that start? I've seen you talk shit about him for the Spurs series; as well as the Orlando one.


2012, I freely admit he changed my perception. And no, I'm not the swagg3r, I believe that was one of many RG accounts. I've used Samurai Swoosh, Money 23, and this one.

It's not about changing perception, it's about what that entails...which is you being wrong. If your perception is that he's very limited skill wise, has no heart, and will be a perennial loser/side-kick his whole career; shit like that doesn't just change in a season. You were just plain wrong. It's ok, you can admit it.


That was objective analysis at said time for me. Maybe slightly more heavy handed due to obvious dislike after the bitch like decision, and the way he acted all through out 2011. Things change, as does perception. LeBron made great strides in 2012 to prove he was finally a winner. Adding elements to his game, etc.

That was your objective analysis? :wtf: Would love to see you talk about a player you REALLY didn't like.


LeBron WAS on the decline athletically in 2011. It was noticeable. Ask Indian Guy ... one of the biggest LeBron fans here. He said the SAME thing. And yes, his skill set was limited. Until he added a post game, and more consistent mid range game was not so coincidentally the first year he won a ring. He was being lazy with his game until 2012. Coasting on natural ability and athleticism.

And you quote Indian Guy, who nearly 99% of the forum called retarded for his exaggerations and hyperboles about LeBron, as some kind of source? For what? Making conclusive statements out of one's ass and being completely wrong about it?

It's ok dude; you hated LeBron before - you let your emotions get the best of you in making some hilariously retarded conclusive statements/predictions about a player, and were proven to be completely wrong about it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's ok dude; you hated LeBron before - you let your emotions get the best of you in making some hilariously retarded conclusive statements/predictions about a player, and were proven to be completely wrong about it.
Which I already conceited ... so what exactly is your point?

[plowking]

You weren't old enough to remember praise of Larry Bird while he played. Stop it.

Jordan has had better seasons than Bron's current 2013 or last year's 2012 campaign. And Bird had a season or two better as well.

LOL @ insinuating it's Shaq and then "the rest". Shaq's most dominant was the one season he was truly motivated, the 2000 season. He's up there with Jordan and Bird, as well. But he isn't head and shoulders above.

Especially not when he played with Kobe in 2001 and 2002, who was arguably as important to the team as him. And was putting up numbers of like 29 / 5 / 5

Jordan didn't have that from '90 - '93. Even LeBron, has had two guys on his team putting up great numbers that aid in the easier nature of getting his stats.

I've read more on Bird, and watched more tape than you've read and watched on basketball altogether.

Aid in getting his stats? Jesus, you're sour. I won't even dignify that one with a comment.

Bird has not had better seasons than this current Lebron one, at least in my opinion, and I'm going to trust that one, over yours, particularly because you're not well studied on the matter. You; as in you directly, could not tell me a single thing about Bird as a basketballer that I don't already know. Other older posters may, but you cannot. I on the other hand would give you a history lesson.

Yes, Shaq. One season. Since it is a thread about seasons, my comment fits perfectly in line with the thread.

[BlackVVaves]

There's only a short list of players that I would definitely take over 2012-2013 Lebron. Early 90s Jordan, early 2000s Shaq. Possibly '94 Hakeem and '76 Kareem (goes unnoticed, but Kareem put up 28 PPG, 17 RPG, 5 APG, and 4 BPG while shooting 53% from the field).

Three of those players are post players, and the other is the greatest player of all time in many eyes. That is what makes it so impressive. What Lebron is doing as a perimeter player is truly a marvel. Like many have alluded to earlier, though 2009 was arguably his best year statistically, when you consider impact and the growth in his overall game (shooting prowess, defensive capabilities), this year is his best. But of course, that's regular season. If Lebron doesn't cap it all off with a spectacular run to a repeat, than people will look at this year as less significant than say the 2011-2012 season.

Question. Who was the better player in the regular season. '86 Bird, or 2013 Lebron?

[dh144498]

there's only 1 other wing player I would take over current Lebron and that's Jordan.

[Greg Oden 50]

top 20 at best,which is not bad

[arifgokcen]

there's only 1 other wing player I would take over current Lebron and that's Jordan.
?????????????????????????

Dude arent you the same dude who is trolling about lebron

Am i missing something here!!!!!!!!!!!

[dh144498]

?????????????????????????

Dude arent you the same dude who is trolling about lebron

Am i missing something here!!!!!!!!!!!

what do you mean?

I tell things the way they are, at least how I perceive them.

[b1imtf]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8916592&postcount=28
What happened?

[Shade8780]

LeBron not winning without Wade or Bosh is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Jordan had Pippen and Grant/Rodman.

Pippen > Wade
Grant > Bosh
Rodman >>> Bosh

LeBron haters :facepalm If MJ had Mo Williams as his sidekick, he doesn't get past Detroit in '91 or Cleveland in '92. Wouldn't be surprised if he left the Bulls for another team like the Knicks after those series.

[Odinn]

LeBron's 2012-13 season is not even better than his 2011-12 season and his 2011-12 season was borderline top 10 at its best.

[RRR3]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8916592&postcount=28
What happened?
Dat trolling

[Legends66NBA7]

LeBron's 2012-13 season is not even better than his 2011-12 season

I agree with this. He was more potent in the 12 playoffs too.

[ripthekik]

Lebron didn't get better. His team did.

[KG215]

I agree with this. He was more potent in the 12 playoffs too.
If we're talking about regular season vs. regular season, he was clearly better in 2013 in my opinion. But it gets tricky when you bring the playoffs into the discussion, because he was pretty clearly better in the 2012 playoffs than 2013.

[All Net]

That 2012 basketball run was one of the best of all time.

[Legends66NBA7]

If we're talking about regular season vs. regular season, he was clearly better in 2013 in my opinion. But it gets tricky when you bring the playoffs into the discussion, because he was pretty clearly better in the 2012 playoffs than 2013.

Yeah, he was better in the regular season in 2013. But since the playoffs should be taken into more value, I give the edge to 12 James. Plus, I thought the competition he faced during the 12 playoffs were stronger than the 13 playoffs.