Lebron vs Hakeem.

[pauk]

List of all their accolades:

..........................LeBron.................H akeem..............
MVP........................4...................... ...1..................
FMVP......................1....................... ...2.................
CHAMP....................1........................ ..2.................
1st All-NBA..............7..........................6..... ............
1st All-Defensive.......5..........................5...... ...........
ROTY.....................Yes...................... .No................
DPOY......................0....................... ...2.................
Best Player...........4+ years................2 years.............
All-Star....................9........................1 2.................
All-Star MVP.............2.........................0....... ...........
POTM.....................25....................... .5..................
....................................STATS......... ......................
PPG.......................27.6.................... .21.8...............
RPG........................7.3.................... ..11.1..............
APG........................6.9.................... ...2.5...............
SPG........................1.7.................... ...1.7...............
BPG........................0.8.................... ....3.1..............
TS%......................57.5%...................5 5.3%...........
eFG%.....................52.4%...................5 1.3%...........
WS/48....................24.1.....................17. 7..............
PER........................27.6................... ..23.6..............



What say you? I think LeBron already has a very strong case..... and i think if he gets another FMVP/Championship this season then its really not that debatable anymore...

[LikeABosh]

Yes, Lebron goes past Hakeem easily if the he wins the Finals MVP this season. You care way too much about his legacy though

[Jlamb47]

I think if LBJ wins this year and take FMVP he gets the nod but Hakeem right now

[All Net]

Only a matter of time really.

[DaSeba5]

I think if LBJ wins this year and take FMVP he gets the nod but Hakeem right now

This.

[bmd]

They play completely different positions and I don't think they can really be compared.

[Rubio2Gasol]

A strong case for what exactly? Hakeem was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player at the end of the day.

[Quintilianus]

List of all their accolades:

..........................LeBron.................H akeem..............
MVP........................4...................... ...1..................
FMVP......................1....................... ...2.................
CHAMP....................1........................ ..2.................
1st All-NBA..............7..........................6..... ............
1st All-Defensive.......5..........................5...... ...........
ROTY.....................Yes...................... .No................
DPOY......................0....................... ...2.................
Best Player...........2 years................2 years.............
All-Star....................9........................1 2.................
All-Star MVP.............2.........................0....... ...........
POTM.....................25....................... .5..................
....................................STATS......... ......................
PPG.......................27.6.................... .21.8...............
RPG........................7.3.................... ..11.1..............
APG........................6.9.................... ...2.5...............
SPG........................1.7.................... ...1.7...............
BPG........................0.8.................... ....3.1..............
TS%......................57.5%...................5 5.3%...........
eFG%.....................52.4%...................5 1.3%...........
WS/48....................24.1.....................17. 7..............
PER........................27.6................... ..23.6..............

I corrected the bolded, you made a mistake.
And lol@POTM, WS/48, TS%, PER. They have absolutely no value in comparing players, absolutely zero.

You gotta look at Hakeem's team's, he had a real contending roster for like three-four years through-out his career. Still has two rings, outplayed the second most dominant force in the paint ever in shaq in the finals, outplayed ewing in other finals.
There's no case for lebron yet, unless you care about mvp's, ts%, PER.
If you care about things that actually have value and quality of the game without a second ring Lebron has no case.
And if that's lebron's peak he'll probably won't reach hakeem's peak. I don't think that peak is something that should be very valuable in comparing players too, but you seem to adore that idea, so just throwing it out there

[Patrick Chewing]

They can't be compared, but there's no way Lebron can guard against the Dream Shake. Nobody could.

[zizozain]

......................................LeBron...... ...........Hakeem..............

Cracking Under Pressure ....... 197.................... 0 ...................

chokes .............................. 376....................0 ....................

tough mentality ..................2/10 ...................10/10................


Year Player .......... Team .......... P R A B S

1987 Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 38 17 06 12 07*
1990 Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 29 18 10 12 05
1992 Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 19 13 06 05 05
1993 Robinson, David San Antonio 29 05 05 10 05
1993 Coleman, Derek New Jersey 21 10 07 05 07
1993 Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 33 13 05 05 05
1993 Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 24 19 06 05 05
1993 Olajuwon, Hakeem Houston 34 10 05 08 05
1995 Divac, Vlade LA Lakers 19 12 08 05 05
2001 Tinsley,Jamaal Indiana 12 09 15 05 06
2003 Kirilenko,Andrei Utah 19 05 07 05 08
2003 Kirilenko,Andrei Utah 10 12 06 05 06
2004 Camby,Marcus Denver 08 11 05 08 05
2006 Kirilenko,Andrei Utah 14 08 09 07 06
2012 Batum, Nicolas Portland 11 10 05 05 05

* Stats before 1990 are not listed. also, Blocks and Steals where not kept before 1972

[pauk]

Yes, Lebron goes past Hakeem easily if the he wins the Finals MVP this season. You care way too much about his legacy though

Hm... just thought i would demonstrate this after seeing so many posters here thinking the Lebron vs Hakeem comparison is futile.... thats all...

[pauk]

A strong case for what exactly? Hakeem was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player at the end of the day.

Offensive player? No... just no..

Defensive player? Yes...

[zizozain]

......................................LeBron...... ...........Hakeem..............

clutch ....................... non-existent ...............clutch ..............

[zizozain]

Hakeem had NOBODY, and wild-shooting, 33 year old Clyde Drexler on his. While Hakeem was surrounded by role-players (and Clyde),

Lebron had TWO superstar.

[Quintilianus]

Offensive player? No... just no..

Defensive player? Yes...
He's a center, based on what he's doing and his abilities, he was a dominant force offensively. And still was best defensive player for x years in a row while doing that.
If anything, Hakeem is underrated, he has a case for being the best center ever

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Hakeem says only in his dreams

[zizozain]

If I had to pick a center, I would take Olajuwon. That leaves out Shaq, Patrick Ewing. It leaves out Wilt Chamberlain. It leaves out a lot of people. And the reason I would take Olajuwon is very simple: he is so versatile because of what he can give you from that position. It's not just his scoring, not just his rebounding or not just his blocked shots. People don't realize he was in the top seven in steals. He always made great decisions on the court. For all facets of the game, I have to give it to him.

-Michael Jordan

[fpliii]

:facepalm

[zizozain]

oh and one-fcuking-star

[pauk]

I corrected the bolded, you made a mistake.
And lol@POTM, WS/48, TS%, PER. They have absolutely no value in comparing players, absolutely zero.

You gotta look at Hakeem's team's, he had a real contending roster for like three-four years through-out his career. Still has two rings, outplayed the second most dominant force in the paint ever in shaq in the finals, outplayed ewing in other finals.
There's no case for lebron yet, unless you care about mvp's, ts%, PER.
If you care about things that actually have value and quality of the game without a second ring Lebron has no case.
And if that's lebron's peak he'll probably won't reach hakeem's peak. I don't think that peak is something that should be very valuable in comparing players too, but you seem to adore that idea, so just throwing it out there

Nah, from what i have seen these last 4 years Lebron was easily the most productive/dominant/impactful player and please notice the "+" hinting at the probability of him being the best player for more years in the upcoming seasons aswell.... Lebron was unquestionably the best player in the world for at least 2 years, but only because he won the championship.... in reality he was that same dominant/productive/impactful player for many more years, he just didnt have the benefits of greater supporting cast....

Unlike Hakeem, Lebron was/is the most dominant player in the world.... in the universe.... Lebron didnt need for the actual best player in the world to take a vacation from the league (Michael Jordan) to be the best player in the NBA or win a championship........ Not trying to downplay Hakeem, but it is very true that its unlikely Hakeem would have been the best player or even won a championship if the actual best player in the world didnt take the vacation.... If Michael Jordan was around those 2 years we wouldnt be having this conversation right now....

[pauk]

......................................LeBron...... ...........Hakeem..............

Cracking Under Pressure ....... 197.................... 0 ...................

chokes .............................. 376....................0 ....................

tough mentality ..................2/10 ...................10/10................


wow... excellent facts.... you win my friend.... :rolleyes:

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

http://youtu.be/CmLR_VgbqAA

[Rubio2Gasol]

Hakeem had NOBODY, and wild-shooting, 33 year old Clyde Drexler on his. While Hakeem was surrounded by role-players (and Clyde),

Lebron had TWO superstar.

This isn't true - Hakeem some really fantastic role players around him (as does Lebron in addition to the 2 superstars).....even in the years before he won.

But it's pretty clear he was a better offensive player, a more unstoppable scorer, a more versatile scorer, and someone good enough to impact the game off the ball when he needed to.

Add to that the huge defensive gap - and I think that about settles it

Of course the 25 Player of the Week awards for James is a quite compelling argument.

[2010splash]

Easily LeBron. Only nostalgia would convince anyone otherwise. Besides Jordan, there's never been a player as good as LeBron 2009-present. Just the truth.

[pauk]

:facepalm

I rest my case... you obviously have nothing to come with except disagreement with what is infront of your eyes...

[K Xerxes]

I've probably got Hakeem higher on my all time list than others (I usually see him 10th, but I've got him 7th with a strong case to be higher). Hakeem is the best all round center I've ever seen in terms of combined offense and defense. If he had the teams that the other great centers had, we could be looking at more championships and finals MVPs, which is what superficially counts in the eyes of many casual viewers.

In my eyes, LeBron is not close to Hakeem at the moment. However, this period of dominance LeBron is displaying is something I've only see a handful of other players do. He's on the right track, that's for sure.

[Miserio]

List of all their accolades:

..........................LeBron.................H akeem..............
MVP........................4...................... ...1..................
FMVP......................1....................... ...2.................
CHAMP....................1........................ ..2.................
1st All-NBA..............7..........................6..... ............
1st All-Defensive.......5..........................5...... ...........
ROTY.....................Yes...................... .No................
DPOY......................0....................... ...2.................
Best Player...........4+ years................2 years.............
All-Star....................9........................1 2.................
All-Star MVP.............2.........................0....... ...........
POTM.....................25....................... .5..................
....................................STATS......... ......................
PPG.......................27.6.................... .21.8...............
RPG........................7.3.................... ..11.1..............
APG........................6.9.................... ...2.5...............
SPG........................1.7.................... ...1.7...............
BPG........................0.8.................... ....3.1..............
TS%......................57.5%...................5 5.3%...........
eFG%.....................52.4%...................5 1.3%...........
WS/48....................24.1.....................17. 7..............
PER........................27.6................... ..23.6..............



What say you? I think LeBron already has a very strong case..... and i think if he gets another FMVP/Championship this season then its really not that debatable anymore...


The 'best player' part is plain stupid it depends on the players from that particular era. If LeBron played in the 90s he wouldn't be the best player. He would be the runner up to the-one-we-all-know.

[Kovach]

Easily LeBron. Only nostalgia would convince anyone otherwise. Besides Jordan, there's never been a player as good as LeBron 2009-present. Just the truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

[Raymone]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?

[Haks]

Nah, from what i have seen these last 4 years Lebron was easily the most productive/dominant/impactful player and please notice the "+" hinting at the probability of him being the best player for more years in the upcoming seasons aswell.... Lebron was unquestionably the best player in the world for at least 2 years, but only because he won the championship.... in reality he was that same dominant/productive/impactful player for many more years, he just didnt have the benefits of greater supporting cast....

Unlike Hakeem, Lebron was/is the most dominant player in the world.... in the universe.... Lebron didnt need for the actual best player in the world to take a vacation from the league (Michael Jordan) to be the best player in the NBA or win a championship........ Not trying to downplay Hakeem, but it is very true that its unlikely Hakeem would have been the best player or even won a championship if the actual best player in the world didnt take the vacation.... If Michael Jordan was around those 2 years we wouldnt be having this conversation right now....
:facepalm same can be said for Lebron if he was in that era

[Quintilianus]

Nah, from what i have seen these last 4 years Lebron was easily the most productive/dominant/impactful player and please notice the "+" hinting at the probability of him being the best player for more years in the upcoming seasons aswell.... Lebron was unquestionably the best player in the world for at least 2 years, but only because he won the championship.... in reality he was that same dominant/productive/impactful player for many more years, he just didnt have the benefits of greater supporting cast....

Unlike Hakeem, Lebron was/is the most dominant player in the world.... in the universe.... Lebron didnt need for the actual best player in the world to take a vacation from the league (Michael Jordan) to be the best player in the NBA or win a championship........ Not trying to downplay Hakeem, but it is very true that its unlikely Hakeem would have been the best player or even won a championship if the actual best player in the world didnt take the vacation....

He wasn't, best player in the world doesn't quit on his team.... two years in a row. In no universe is that a dominant player or a best player. There's no case besides statistics for that crazy claim. Or dickriding, but I'm not a type of person to downplay a human just because he likes a player more than a team. Again, I'm not trying to insult you or anybody on this site, i'm just naming possibilities

Wasn't former MVP rose injured in LeBron's PO run? And the most dominant defensive force and center in the league dwight howard? Or the whole knicks team banged up as sh*t? Or this year there's no top 3 player kobe, no rose, no rondo, no granger, no amare (maybe, dunno will he play in PO) and many more great players that aren't all-stars but are crucial to their teams? C'mon dude, it's not like this isn't the weakest league in yeaaars. And I do realize that's not LeBron's fault, I don't nitpick him for that, but when you compare Hakeem's path to his both championships and LeBron's to his both(as he's 60% likely to win this year, i'll say both) it's not even close.

Horry has called hakeem the best center ever, MJ has done it, Shaq has done it, there's something to that man

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

List of all their accolades:

..........................LeBron.................H akeem..............
MVP........................4...................... ...1..................
FMVP......................1....................... ...2.................
CHAMP....................1........................ ..2.................
1st All-NBA..............7..........................6..... ............
1st All-Defensive.......5..........................5...... ...........
ROTY.....................Yes...................... .No................
DPOY......................0....................... ...2.................
Best Player...........4+ years................2 years.............
All-Star....................9........................1 2.................
All-Star MVP.............2.........................0....... ...........
POTM.....................25....................... .5..................
....................................STATS......... ......................
PPG.......................27.6.................... .21.8...............
RPG........................7.3.................... ..11.1..............
APG........................6.9.................... ...2.5...............
SPG........................1.7.................... ...1.7...............
BPG........................0.8.................... ....3.1..............
TS%......................57.5%...................5 5.3%...........
eFG%.....................52.4%...................5 1.3%...........
WS/48....................24.1.....................17. 7..............
PER........................27.6................... ..23.6..............



What say you? I think LeBron already has a very strong case..... and i think if he gets another FMVP/Championship this season then its really not that debatable anymore...

http://i47.tinypic.com/14kxs74.png

[fpliii]

I rest my case... you obviously have nothing to come with except disagreement with what is infront of your eyes...

It's a subjective ranking, that's not why I facepalmed. The problem is, if you are using the table in your OP to make this determination, quite a few of your criteria are flawed:

1st All-NBA - 90s centers are far more competitive than current forwards; in addition, Hakeem had to fight for only one spot on the first team (as opposed to the 2 forward spots)

1st All-Defensive - same as above

ROTY - I don't know why you'd mention this

All-Star MVP - same

POTM - there are two awards now, while there was only one for most (all?) of Hakeem's career

WS/48 - highly flawed box score metric

PER - I'm not going to get into this again

[Kovach]

Offensive player? No... just no..

The most fundamentally sound center of all time whose arsenal of moves is unrivaled by pretty much anyone not named MJ is worse than a forward with the aesthetics of a tractor? Sure.

[lebeast666]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?

Well I know something Hakeem hasn't accomplished that LeBron has, pile up a bunch of haters.

[Quintilianus]

The most fundamentally sound center of all time whose arsenal of moves is unrivaled by pretty much anyone not named MJ is worse than a forward with the aesthetics of a tractor? Sure.
I laughed way too hard at this :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Raymone]

If LeBron played in the 90s, do you really think he would've been stopped by Jordan and the Bulls? What team in history could stop LeBron?

[arifgokcen]

He wasn't, best player in the world doesn't quit on his team.... two years in a row. In no universe is that a dominant player or a best player. There's no case besides statistics for that crazy claim. Or dickriding, but I'm not a type of person to downplay a human just because he likes a player more than a team. Again, I'm not trying to insult you or anybody on this site, i'm just naming possibilities

Wasn't former MVP rose injured in LeBron's PO run? And the most dominant defensive force and center in the league dwight howard? Or the whole knicks team banged up as sh*t? Or this year there's no top 3 player kobe, no rose, no rondo, no granger, no amare (maybe, dunno will he play in PO) and many more great players that aren't all-stars but are crucial to their teams? C'mon dude, it's not like this isn't the weakest league in yeaaars. And I do realize that's not LeBron's fault, I don't nitpick him for that, but when you compare Hakeem's path to his both championships and LeBron's to his both(as he's 60% likely to win this year, i'll say both) it's not even close.

Horry has called hakeem the best center ever, MJ has done it, Shaq has done it, there's something to that man
Whats up with these all new trolls.

and not just kobe stans there are a lot of new lebron stans too.

ISH has become the ultimate troll forum.There really is no thread that anyone can discuss anything without these trolls.

Interestingly enough most of these newcomers make me question the average age.How hard is it to put two words together.

[Dragonyeuw]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?

Lead a team to the championship as the 6th seed playing on the road the whole way through.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Well I know something Hakeem hasn't accomplished that LeBron has, pile up a bunch of haters.

He had them once.

[inclinerator]

The most fundamentally sound center of all time whose arsenal of moves is unrivaled by pretty much anyone not named MJ is worse than a forward with the aesthetics of a tractor? Sure.
let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves

[Quintilianus]

Whats up with these all new trolls.

and not just kobe stans there are a lot of new lebron stans too.

ISH has become the ultimate troll forum.There really is no thread that anyone can discuss anything without these trolls.

Interestingly enough most of these newcomers make me question the average age.How hard is it to put two words together.
In what way does my post look like trolling?
I try to be objective as I can, yes I'm a laker fan, grew up watching Kobe if that's what you mean, but that's it, I don't have hard feelings for anybody, try to evaluate everything that I see as objective as possible

[Kovach]

If LeBron played in the 90s, do you really think he would've been stopped by Jordan and the Bulls? What team in history could stop LeBron?
I don't know, how many teams from the 90's did he face?

[HomieWeMajor]

OP does Lebron like his BJs wet and sloppy ?

[Kovach]

let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves
No of course not, a dunk, a jump-hook and moving your opponent out of your way with your ass clearly trump everything Hakeem could do on offense.

[Quintilianus]

let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves

It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.

[zizozain]

wow... excellent facts.... you win my friend.... :rolleyes:
Lebron cracking under pressure ..... fact

Lebron chokes ...... fact

Lebron mentally weak ...... fact

Lebron clutch non-existent .. fact

:rolleyes: back at ya

[Kovach]

It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.
No he didn't, the margin between the two wasn't as great as some people believe.
I have no problem with either Shaq or LeBron, it was the "No... just no.." comment that ticked me off, as if Hakeem doesn't have a case, which is bull.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Shaq was more dominant. In his prime you had to foul him to stop him. However I think people sometimes overlook the fact that this means there was a clear cut way to defend him.

I don't mind people saying Shaq was a better offensive player, because he was just so.......dominant. No one could guard him. But there is a very easy argument that could be made for Hakeem on the basis of versatility and a lack of clear exploitable weaknesses.

[zizozain]

let me guess, hakeem was a better offensive player than shaq or wilt also since he has a better array of moves
Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?

Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.

Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.

That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250889

[Quintilianus]

No he didn't, the margin between the two wasn't as great as people believe.
I have no problem with either Shaq nor LeBron, it was the "No... just no.." comment that ticked me off, as if Hakeem doesn't have a case, which is bull.
Statistically it wasn't, but shaq was statpadding in the garbage time in one game I remember.
There was one game that they were somewhat equal, hakeem's team obviously still won that.
Other three were heavily in Hakeem's favour, even shaq admints that he was destroyed

[K Xerxes]

It's subjective. He swept shaq in the finals and outplayed him big time, so there's definitely a case for this one.
And for wilt, there's obviously the era-barrier that will not bring us our answers. At least not in our time until they find a machine that realistically simulates games.

That's a big myth. Hakeem didn't outplay Shaq 'big time'; they pretty much went toe to toe throughout the entire finals. Hakeem was a bit better, but this was a 23 year old Shaq, not the 99-00 version. It was the Houston supporting cast that ultimately made the difference in that series.

[Quintilianus]

Numbers favor Shaq on offense, but who was the more complete offensive player?

Sure, Shaq has the better offensive numbers, but they're not light years better. Still, what was Shaq's game? Catch the ball in the low post, turn, and dunk. That's not a criticism - if you do something better than anyone else, you have to do it until someone stops it... and with Shaq, nobody ever did, because he was just that good.

Olajuwon on the other hand, well - he was great in the low post. He could kill you on the baseline with the Dream Shake. He had the mid-range jumper. Then, when he could already rely on his skills and was already better than all his peers, he developed a jump hook. When the jump hook showed up on the resume, it was OVER. Hakeem could officially murder you from pretty much anywhere inside of 16-18 feet.

That said, I'm not going to take anything away from Shaq's offensive game. Nobody in the history of the NBA, aside from Wilt Chamberlain, can compete with what he could do offensively under the basket.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250889

That's not entirely true, while he did that most of the time, he had a very respectable arsenal of post moves, there's been guys that were big, but shaq was as great because he had those post moves and obviously his incredible athleticism that gets overlooked nowadays as he got fat for like 7 years of his career

[Kovach]

Statistically it wasn't, but shaq was statpadding in the garbage time in one game I remember.
There was one game that they were somewhat equal, hakeem's team obviously still won that.
Other three were heavily in Hakeem's favour, even shaq admints that he was destroyed


I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

All credits to colts18 from RealGM.

You make what you want of it.

[Electric Slide]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?
win 2 titles and back to back titles.

If Lebron wins a title this season, I have a hard time seeing much of a case for Hakeem.

[Deuce Bigalow]

NBA Finals

Hakeem
1986: 25-12-2-2-3 (loss was to the 86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team)
1994: 27-9-4-2-4
1995: 33-12-6-2-2

Lebron
2007: 22-7-7-1-1 (loss, 6 to, 36 fg%)
2011: 18-7-7-2-1 (loss, 4 to, 3 ppg in 4th quarters, 0 points on 0-7 in the clutch, 5th leading scorer in the series, outscored by bench player)
2012: 29-10-7-2-0 (lockout year)

"NEXT"

[Harison]

A strong case for what exactly? Hakeem was a better offensive player and a much better defensive player at the end of the day.

This. Accolades without context doesnt mean much. Imagine Lebron in the Golden age... He wouldnt be seen as great. Now imagine what Dream could do to current NBA? It just wouldnt be fair.

[pauk]

I just think its more debatable than many here refuse to think, its close i think and therefore more interesting to discuss. Keep in mind what company Lebron is with those 4 MVPs aswell... Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain.... players who were not only better than Hakeem, but contenders for Greatest Player of All Time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron hasn't been the best player for 4+ years. In retrospect, especially given his immature, pouty ways of 2010 and 2011. He doesn't deserve that title. He was the greatest talent, sure. But not player. He didn't have the mental game down until last season.

LeBron hasn't been clearly the best player in the league until last season. 2009 and 2010 you have arguments with Kobe and Wade. In 2011, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and his own teammate Wade.

[Electric Slide]

LeBron hasn't been the best player for 4+ years. In retrospect, especially given his immature, pouty ways of 2010 and 2011. He doesn't deserve that title. He was the greatest talent, sure. But not player. He didn't have the mental game down until last season.

LeBron hasn't been clearly the best player in the league until last season. 2009 and 2010 you have arguments with Kobe and Wade. In 2011, Rose, Dirk, Dwight and his own teammate Wade.
There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.

[SamuraiSWISH]

There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.
As a player, sure. Context, he had the argument for MVP.

Even disregarding that ... do you not agree with the rest of what I said?

[Stephen Curry]

I'm a better shooter than both of them combined.

[Electric Slide]

As a player, sure. Context, he had the argument for MVP.

Even disregarding that ... do you not agree with the rest of what I said?
Ehh.... I don't see much of an argument for either Kobe or Wade in 2009 or 2010 honestly. Lebron just didn't win it all. You don't have to win it all to be the best. If winning is your premise, I don't know how you can say Wade was better in 09 or 10 either because he was even less successful.

Lebron's post-season play in 2010 was way blown out of proportion which is why I'm assuming you have Kobe above him. He just had a bad series for his standard and his team was completely outmatched. If you switched their teams, there is no question in my mind that Lebron would have won it all and probably would have won it faster. I doubt he would have needed all 7 games to beat the Celtics with Gasol, Odom, and Bynum.

2011 is the only one where you can say he wasn't the best and that Wade, Dirk, and Dwight were better.

But 2009 and 2010? Nah.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Only a matter of time really.
this

[Jolokia]

Lebron will already be greater than everyone except for the following (if he wins another FMVP):

MJ
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

Top 10 player of all time before the age of 29.

[joeysms55]

The 'best player' part is plain stupid it depends on the players from that particular era. If LeBron played in the 90s he wouldn't be the best player. He would be the runner up to the-one-we-all-know.

Like saying if Jordan didn't retire then Hakeem will have 0 best player too

[chosen_wun]

This FMVP will put him over Hakeem imo. No homer.

[Sarcastic]

I just think its more debatable than many here refuse to think, its close i think and therefore more interesting to discuss. Keep in mind what company Lebron is with those 4 MVPs aswell... Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain.... players who were not only better than Hakeem, but contenders for Greatest Player of All Time.


Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah. The MVP is not a great tool to rate players against each other for several reasons. For one, the voting rules have changed. The players themselves used to vote. Now the media does. Also the definition of what truly is the MVP has never been defined.

Michael Jordan should probably have 10 MVPs, but instead he only has 5. The voters change their opinions from year to year on who should get the award. Sometimes they like to crown a past champion, and sometimes they get fatigue and want to give it to a new guy.


On top of that, the competition is different from era to era. Dirk has an MVP, but he never competed with Magic, Bird, nor Michael to get it. It's just an awful awful awful way to try to judge players from different eras.

[LongLiveTheKing]

NBA Finals

Hakeem
1986: 25-12-2-2-3 (loss was to the 86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team)
1994: 27-9-4-2-4 (Jordan wasn't in the league)
1995: 33-12-6-2-2(MJ played 17 games)

Lebron
2007: 22-7-7-1-1 (loss, 6 to, 36 fg%)(A
2011: 18-7-7-2-1 (loss, 4 to, 3 ppg in 4th quarters, 0 points on 0-7 in the clutch, 5th leading scorer in the series, outscored by bench player)
2012: 29-10-7-2-0 (lockout year)

"NEXT"
How does the lock out affect the Finals? :biggums:
In 2007 I'm so sure the Spurs were worried about Larry Hughes beating them and didn't focus their entire defense on Lebron. :facepalm

[ThaRegul8r]

Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah.

Didn't know Nash and Rose were in the category of players being discussed.

As they're not, it's irrelevant. I don't get why people bring lesser players into a discussion as if it's supposed to "prove" anything.

[tmacattack33]

He's a center, based on what he's doing and his abilities, he was a dominant force offensively. And still was best defensive player for x years in a row while doing that.
If anything, Hakeem is underrated, he has a case for being the best center ever

1. Centers can certainly be more dominant than Hakeem was...like Shaq and Kareem

2. Flawed logic. You are apparently saying that since Hakeem was a center, he didn't need to or couldn't dominate offensively like he could have. Well then okay, since Lebron is a SF, he can't dominate like a center could on defense.

[dunksby]

Hakeem's two championship runs are much superior to LeBron, how can you begin to compare their teams? pauk with another out of context comparison and that's beside the BS variables he put together to compare them :facepalm

[TheReturn]

Whats funny to me is the fact that when people compare LBJ to legendary players, they usually just sum up their rings and mvps and say 'Let him get a bunch more and then we'll talk' and anyone who says Lebron is just a better basketball player gets laughed at.

Now Lebron is getting close to Hakeem in terms of achievements and the same fans are arguing 'Hakeem is just the better offensive and defensive player.'

Lacks some consistency.

[Djahjaga]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

This entire thread is full of this.

"Lebron not the best player in the league," "Lebron has 2 superstars on his team," and the classic, "Olajuwon wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't left."

This entire forum is full of sh*t like this.

"Shaq carried Kobe to three rings," "Kobe was a lockdown perimeter defender in his prime," "Jordan couldn't win without Pippen," "Grant Hill was on his way to top-15 all time before he was injured," "Kobe was somehow not incredibly lucky to play in a huge market with a top-10 all time player."

No one actually seeks to prove anything here anymore.

[Lebron23]

Whats funny to me is the fact that when people compare LBJ to legendary players, they usually just sum up their rings and mvps and say 'Let him get a bunch more and then we'll talk' and anyone who says Lebron is just a better basketball player gets laughed at.

Now Lebron is getting close to Hakeem in terms of achievements and the same fans are arguing 'Hakeem is just the better offensive and defensive player.'

Lacks some consistency.


Just ignore them. LeBron will surpass Kobe and Hakeem at the end of this season.

[plowking]

Hakeem's two championship runs are much superior to LeBron, how can you begin to compare their teams? pauk with another out of context comparison and that's beside the BS variables he put together to compare them :facepalm

Neither of Hakeem's championship runs were better than Lebron's run last season.

pauk's obsession with Lebron is quite weird and borderline homo, yet he never wants to admit it, despite talking about and defending him the whole time. I guess this causes stupid comments geared in Lebron's direction that aren't exactly true and obviously portray him as a far worse player than he is.

[ILLsmak]

This entire thread is full of this.

"Lebron not the best player in the league," "Lebron has 2 superstars on his team," and the classic, "Olajuwon wouldn't have won if Jordan hadn't left."

This entire forum is full of sh*t like this.

"Shaq carried Kobe to three rings," "Kobe was a lockdown perimeter defender in his prime," "Jordan couldn't win without Pippen," "Grant Hill was on his way to top-15 all time before he was injured," "Kobe was somehow not incredibly lucky to play in a huge market with a top-10 all time player."

No one actually seeks to prove anything here anymore.

Can't we prove LeBron has 2 (or at least 1.5) superstars on his team?

Can't we prove his supporting cast is great (in terms of filling the holes created by a slasher like Bron... defenders and shooters)?

LeBron is an amazing player, but I wish people would jump off saying this is the best season in NBA history. I never once thought that about any player I watched and I saw MJ (albeit later MJ) and Shaq (in his prime.) I don't understand why everything has to be THE BEST. Why can't it just be amazing?

-Smak

[2010splash]

Hakeem's never dominated the playoffs the way LeBron 2009 and LeBron 2012 did.

LeBron 2009: 35/9/7, 51% FG, 61.8% TS, 37.4 PER

LeBron 2012: 30/10/6, 50% FG, 57.6% TS, 30.3 PER

Hakeem was never that dominant, sorry. And the fact that he took a 6th seed to a title is supposed to be more impressive than LeBron leading a high seed? Please... prime LeBron never led teams to bad enough records that were only good enough FOR the 6th seed. That's a credit to LeBron. Not his fault his teams never underachieve in the regular season.

[Legends66NBA7]

Lebron didnt need for the actual best player in the world to take a vacation from the league

Are we really going here ?

[Lebron23]

Hakeem's never dominated the playoffs the way LeBron 2009 and LeBron 2012 did.

LeBron 2009: 35/9/7, 51% FG, 61.8% TS, 37.4 PER

LeBron 2012: 30/10/6, 50% FG, 57.6% TS, 30.3 PER

Hakeem was never that dominant, sorry. And the fact that he took a 6th seed to a title is supposed to be more impressive than LeBron leading a high seed? Please... prime LeBron never led teams to bad enough records that were only good enough FOR the 6th seed. That's a credit to LeBron. Not his fault his teams never underachieve in the regular season.


/End Thread.

[Sarcastic]

Didn't know Nash and Rose were in the category of players being discussed.

As they're not, it's irrelevant. I don't get why people bring lesser players into a discussion as if it's supposed to "prove" anything.


Did you read my post? It had nothing to do with using Nash nor Rose to compare to Lebron nor Hakeem.

[DatAsh]

He's a center, based on what he's doing and his abilities, he was a dominant force offensively. And still was best defensive player for x years in a row while doing that.
If anything, Hakeem is underrated, he has a case for being the best center ever

Guards usually have a larger offensive impact than centers. The opposite is true on defense.

[DatAsh]

Shaq was more dominant. In his prime you had to foul him to stop him. However I think people sometimes overlook the fact that this means there was a clear cut way to defend him.

I don't mind people saying Shaq was a better offensive player, because he was just so.......dominant. No one could guard him. But there is a very easy argument that could be made for Hakeem on the basis of versatility and a lack of clear exploitable weaknesses.

Shaq was definitely a better offensive player than Hakeem.

[pauk]

Lets see.....


The 'best player' part is plain stupid it depends on the players from that particular era. If LeBron played in the 90s he wouldn't be the best player. He would be the runner up to the-one-we-all-know.

:facepalm same can be said for Lebron if he was in that era


Why are you so sure? How do you know? That is just as much of an empty opinion as me saying Lebron would OWN the league in the 90s....

Lebron has not played in that era.... so we dont know how he would be there and what type of team he would have...

Hakeem has not played in this era either.... so we dont know how he would be here either...

What we do know is that Hakeem played in the 90s with Jordan in his prime, where Hakeem didnt win a championship and wasnt the best player in the NBA before or after Jordans "vacation"....

[Rubio2Gasol]

Shaq was definitely a better offensive player than Hakeem.

Make your case...outside of what I already admitted.

[pauk]

@Quintilianus:

I hope you realise why i dont reply to you.... "Lebron choker", "dickrider","he is not most dominant player" together with your lack of knowledge and zero facts, objectivity makes your agenda extremly clear..... its like talking to a wall.... you dont like Lebron, you dont wish for him to be anything in this world.... thats fine... you made your case clear....

[Electric Slide]

Shaq was definitely a better offensive player than Hakeem.
He probably was but it wasn't by a whole lot. I don't know why u used the word definitely

[PickernRoller]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?

Pretty much everything for an all-time great. Lebron on the other hand has taken a shortcut for everything is his career. I still debate which is more appropriate LeShortcut or LeQueen. Both apply so well. Lol at the stats debate. At the end of the day, swept first time around, choked second time around, paired with 2 other top 5 players at their position to get the ring for a third time with extreme ref bias in a shortened season in a weakened league. Not to mention all the choke jobs in the post-seasons for the best team in the East - per ESPN d1ckriding. The favorites to WIN it all - every single year. That's what happens when you're the King of the regular season but the B1tch of the postseason. Lol at the fanbase. Grasping for notoriety.

[Lebron23]

LeBron 2012: 30/10/6, 50% FG, 57.6% TS, 30.3 PER vs. Knicks (5th best defensive team, vs. Pacers ( 9th best defensive team), vs. Celtics ( no.1 defensive team) vs. Thunder (2nd best offensive team).

[noob cake]

He's a center, based on what he's doing and his abilities, he was a dominant force offensively. And still was best defensive player for x years in a row while doing that.
If anything, Hakeem is underrated, he has a case for being the best center ever

Hakeem's O compared to other PF/C >>> LeBron's O compared to Melo/Durant.

Hakeem is a better offensive player than LeBron individually. LeBron's vision might put him above Hakeem though.

Hakeem has a case of being the greatest two way player of all times. MJ is usually up there also.

[Lebron23]

Pretty much everything for an all-time great. Lebron on the other hand has taken a shortcut for everything is his career. I still debate which is more appropiate Leshortcut or LeQueen. Both apply so well.


4 MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1 MVP and 2x Finals MVP. The Blazers traded Clyde Drexler to Houston in the 1995 NBA Season. Before Dexter was traded to the Rockets, they were barely a playoffs team.

[bdreason]

It's definitely debatable if LeBron wins another ring this year, but there are two things LeBron will never have on Hakeem.

1. LeBron will never match Hakeem's defensive impact.

and

2. LeBron will never get as much credit for his championships as Hakeem. However, if LeBron ends up with 4+ titles, that won't really matter.

[PickernRoller]

4 MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1 MVP and 2x Finals MVP. The Blazers traded Clyde Drexler to Houston in the 1995 NBA Season. Before Dexter was traded to the Rockets, they were barely a playoffs team.

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/the-Decision-LeBron-James-ESPN.png

We were all witness...........not 2, not 3, not 4.....chokes in the NBA finals. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

And people can still root for the guy in a fanatical fashion. I lost my respect for Lebron and his accomplishments a long time ago. He's a good player no doubt - but definitely not All-time great caliber. Better thank the league - very kind it has been.

[Doctor Rivers]

Pauk won't stop till LeBron is the GOAT

[Lebron23]

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/the-Decision-LeBron-James-ESPN.png

We were all witness...........not 2, not 3, not 4.....chokes in the NBA finals. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

And people can still root for the guy in a fanatical fashion. I lost my respect for Lebron and his accomplishments a long time ago. He's a good player no doubt - but definitely not All-time great caliber. Better thank the league - very kind it has been.


Top 8 player of all time if the Heats wins the NBA Championship in June.

[chazzy]

You guys are being way to quick to dismiss Hakeem's title runs. Look at his team in 94 and look at his numbers in 95

[Greg Oden 50]

Yes, Lebron goes past Hakeem easily if the he wins the Finals MVP this season. You care way too much about his legacy though

lebron will never win dpoy :banana:

[PickernRoller]

Top 8 player of all time if the Heats wins the NBA Championship in June.

In your list - :roll: :roll: who gives a shit about your list? Yep.


The Blazers traded Clyde Drexler to Houston in the 1995 NBA Season. Before Dexter was traded to the Rockets, they were barely a playoffs team.
Anyway:

Hakeem before Drexler, 1994 NBA Champion/Finals MVP against NYK aka Patrick Ewing. Next year, with Drexler, 1995 NBA Champion/Finals MVP against ORL aka Shaq the Diesel. 1986 NBA Finals appearance against Larry Bird - six game series. You have my permission to shoot yourself into oblivion. Never ever to return again.

[Lebron23]

You guys are being way to quick to dismiss Hakeem's title runs. Look at his team in 94 and look at his numbers in 95

Do you think Hakeem's title runs was way better than Kobe's title runs in 2009 and 2010?

[Lebron23]

In your list - :roll: :roll: who gives a shit about your list? Yep.


Anyway:

Hakeem before Drexler, 1994 NBA Champion/Finals MVP against NYK aka Patrick Ewing. Next year, with Drexler, 1995 NBA Champion/Finals MVP against ORL aka Shaq the Diesel. 1986 NBA Finals appearance against Larry Bird - six game series. You have my permission to shoot yourself into oblivion. Never ever to return again.

Durant in 2012 > Ewing in 1995. LBJ beat his greatest rival in the NBA Finals.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Do you rank Hakeem's championship runs over Kobe's title runs in 2009 and 2010?

Most definitely.

Lebron had a fantastic run last year - but if you understand what Hakeem had to do on both ends for that team - their really aren't many seasons or playoff runs you can put ahead of them.

[PickernRoller]

Durant in 2012 > Ewing in 1995. LBJ beat his greatest rival in the NBA Finals.

According to the LeQueen fanbase and the fervor in their tongues LeQueen's main rival will always be Kobe Bryant - despite the fact that he's already a past-prime athlete leagues and miles better than LeQueen. Lebron can only aspire but he will never reach. Lol at Durant at this stage in his career been better than Ewing. Laughable. He did not beat Durant - Mike Miller, Mario Chalmers, Shame Battier and the refs in game 2 beat Durant. 30.6 pts on 54.8%. Yep he was beaten.

[KG215]

List of all their accolades:

..........................LeBron.................H akeem..............
ROTY.....................Yes...................... .No................
Best Player...........4+ years................2 years.............
All-Star MVP.............2.........................0....... ...........
POTM.....................25....................... .5..................

I see you still haven't learned or gotten over your old ways, despite claiming many times you're not the same poster you use to be.

[Electric Slide]

Assuming Lebron wins the MVP, Title, and Finals MVP again this season which I think he will.

I can only think of 5 players worthy being listed ahead of him.

Those players are

MJ
KAJ
Russell
Magic
Shaq

[PickernRoller]

I see you still haven't learned or gotten over your old ways, despite claiming many times you're not the same poster you use to be.

Did he really claimed so? :lol :lol :lol

-----------
Alts showing up - posters are desperate. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Assuming Miami wins another title, and he gets his regular season + Finals MVP, Bron will be right there w/ Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe. Shaq too. His accomplishments would be far too great to keep him outta the top 10.

[Just2McFly]

It's definitely debatable if LeBron wins another ring this year, but there are two things LeBron will never have on Hakeem.

1. LeBron will never match Hakeem's defensive impact.

and

2. LeBron will never get as much credit for his championships as Hakeem. However, if LeBron ends up with 4+ titles, that won't really matter.

Those are some stupid reasons that people selectively pull out when they throw objectivity in the garbage.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Assuming Miami wins another title, and he gets his regular season + Finals MVP, Bron will be right there w/ Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe. Shaq too. His accomplishments would be far too great to keep him outta the top 10.
Pretty much this ... :pimp:

[pauk]

1st All-NBA - 90s centers are far more competitive than current forwards; in addition, Hakeem had to fight for only one spot on the first team (as opposed to the 2 forward spots)

Sure... but, you are forgetting context here....

The times Lebron got in the 1st all-NBA team he was clearly the best SF... he would have got in there all his 7 times battling only one spot aswell... and even then the competition would be brutal (first it was T-Mac, Pierce then Carmelo, Durant)

The times Lebron got in the 1st All-Defensive team he was clearly the best defensive SF.... he would have got in there all his 5 times battling only one spot aswell....


ROTY - I don't know why you'd mention this

Because i dropped all the NBA accolades.... This one in particular is not so extremly useless, it shows that a player came in to the league with a better bang than any other rookie at his time....

In Hakeems rookie year it was Michael Jordan.... What Jordan did to Hakeem there is what Lebron did to Carmelo....


All-Star MVP - same

I agree with this one, its kindof useless... but like i said, i dropped all the accolades... and there is many more... like milestones/records perhaps...


POTM - there are two awards now, while there was only one for most (all?) of Hakeem's career

Yes... but this excuse would only work if Lebron maybe would have not had all those POTM awards if there was only one.... in reality Lebron would have got all of those or most of those 25 POTMs (certainly more than Hakeems 5) anyways because he was the best player/MVP each of those months..... the only benefit of the POTM in Lebrons era was the opposite player, the Wesern Conference Player, only that player wouldnt had won it if it was only one POTM...... it also explains why Lebron has 3 more MVPs and has been a better player in his era for longer....

Having more POTM than somebody else in theory is kindof useless.... but should not be disregarded because this tells a very important story...
Because the POTM is the same criteria as MVP & given out by the same establishment, a player who had many more POTM is a player who has been the MVP of the month (which is not a very short time) many more times...... a player who has won the most POTM in a season usually ends up with the MVP aswell......... a player who has won the more POTMs for his career has therefore probably ended up with more MVPs aswell......
In Lebrons case this story is very correct....

...and if that player (Lebron) has many more MVPs that means that player has been a MORE VALUABLE PLAYER many more years & months than the player compared to (Hakeem)........ which hints at the probability of Lebron being a more impactful player than Hakeem was.... at least for a longer time.... for you to win the MVP your productiveness/individual talent/skill needs to translate to more TEAM SUCCESS/WINS than anybody else.....

MVP.... that sure is a very important award....

[K]

Who did Lebron James compete with for his MVPs? Who did Lebron James compete with for his 1st All D team selections? Who won his championships with less help? Nuff said.

[ripthekik]

Funny that everything Lebron achieved, rings, FMVPs, were done with 2 prime stars.

That's why even if this year he gets FMVP, and ties Hakeem for same accomplishments, he is still be low Hakeem. Doing it with a stacked team is not impressive. That's all.

[Electric Slide]

Funny that everything Lebron achieved, rings, FMVPs, were done with 2 prime stars.

That's why even if this year he gets FMVP, and ties Hakeem for same accomplishments, he is still be low Hakeem. Doing it with a stacked team is not impressive. That's all.
Then anything Kobe has ever done is not impressive.

[ripthekik]

Then anything Kobe has ever done is not impressive.
Kobe did it with just Pau. If you're one of those dumbasses that started watching basketball was 2011, I'll tell you now, Bynum was not a huge factor.

Lebron needed 2 all star starters in a weak era. Not impressive.

[nightprowler10]

The most fundamentally sound center of all time whose arsenal of moves is unrivaled by pretty much anyone not named MJ is worse than a forward with the aesthetics of a tractor? Sure.
I love this post.

[Legends66NBA7]

after Jordans "vacation"....

This needs to stop being posted.

[2010splash]

Kobe did it with just Pau. If you're one of those dumbasses that started watching basketball was 2011, I'll tell you now, Bynum was not a huge factor.

Lebron needed 2 all star starters in a weak era. Not impressive.
Kobe was shooting 40% in the Finals though. Clearly he didn't do it on his own. A 6/24 shooting performance in the Finals-clinching game 7 vs. LeBron's triple double to end the 2012 Finals? Which was more impressive. No doubt LeBron has a better team, but he's also been a vastly superior player when it matters.

[Electric Slide]

Kobe did it with just Pau. If you're one of those dumbasses that started watching basketball was 2011, I'll tell you now, Bynum was not a huge factor.

Lebron needed 2 all star starters in a weak era. Not impressive.
Who had a more stacked and better team than the Lakers? Nobody. It is no different than the Heat. The Lakers were by far the most stacked team in the NBA and nobody came close. Bynum wasn't great then, but Odom was.

You want to discredit Lebron. Do the same with Kobe.

[ripthekik]

Kobe was shooting 40% in the Finals though. Clearly he didn't do it on his own. A 6/24 shooting performance in the Finals-clinching game 7 vs. LeBron's triple double to end the 2012 Finals? Which was more impressive. No doubt LeBron has a better team, but he's also been a vastly superior player when it matters.
You're using 1 game to determine it all? :rolleyes:
How about look at who they went through in their playoff?

Heat opponents: Knicks, Pacers, Boston, Thunder :oldlol:

[2010splash]

You're using 1 game to determine it all? :rolleyes:
How about look at who they went through in their playoff?

Heat opponents: Knicks, Pacers, Boston, Thunder :oldlol:
Thunder are no joke. Durant/Westbrook/Harden was the second best trio in the league. Team was sick loaded.

Compared to the 50-win Celtics? Much better.

[ripthekik]

Thunder are no joke. Durant/Westbrook/Harden was the second best trio in the league. Team was sick loaded.

Compared to the 50-win Celtics? Much better.
Youngest team in the league? What was their average age.. 23?
I havent checked this stat.. but seems like they're the youngest team ever in the finals..

So congrats Heat, you beat the youngest team ever in the finals. :applause:

[jcsrplumply]

Haha! This thread is slightly becoming Kobe vs Lebron - nothing new here. :oldlol:

[The Iron Fist]

What has Hakeem ever done that LeBron hasn't?
Not get swept in finals. :lol

[ripthekik]

Haha! This thread is slightly becoming Kobe vs Lebron - nothing new here. :oldlol:
And you can check who brought him up :oldlol:

[Anaximandro1]

Hakeem would be absolutely unfair in today's NBA.He is the best big man of the modern era.I can imagine a scenario where LeBron remains ringless.


A couple of examples.

45 pt vs Jazz (G1 1995 PO)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMilINcdjSM)40 pt vs Jazz (G4 1995 PO) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXb7dn7yKWk)


More

40 pts vs Lakers (G3 1986 PO) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGJl2MfyiI)

[plowking]

Hakeem would be absolutely unfair in today's NBA.He is the best big man of the modern era.I can imagine a scenario where LeBron remains ringless.


A couple of examples.

45 pt vs Jazz (G1 1995 PO)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMilINcdjSM)40 pt vs Jazz (G4 1995 PO) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXb7dn7yKWk)


More

40 pts vs Lakers (G3 1986 PO) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNGJl2MfyiI)

Posts like these I don't agree with. Getting slightly off topic, and more into the effectiveness of post players today.

With defenses of today focusing on double teaming, heavy trapping, etc, and along with the rules of today taking away the impact of the big man on offense, I don't think they'd statistically dominate. In fact I think most big men would suffer statistically in this era. Not due to not being as good, just the way the game is played.

[chazzy]

Posts like these I don't agree with. Getting slightly off topic, and more into the effectiveness of post players today.

With defenses of today focusing on double teaming, heavy trapping, etc, and along with the rules of today taking away the impact of the big man on offense, I don't think they'd statistically dominate. In fact I think most big men would suffer statistically in this era. Not due to not being as good, just the way the game is played.
Meh, if Dwight Howard can average 23 on 59% for season then there's no doubt in my mind an all time great like Hakeem can dominate statistically. It's not like there are any big men right now who would be putting up bigger numbers outside of this era

[plowking]

Meh, if Dwight Howard can average 23 on 59% for season then there's no doubt in my mind an all time great like Hakeem can dominate statistically. It's not like there are any big men right now who would be putting up bigger numbers outside of this era

Disagree. Players like Al Jeff, Dwight Howard, Zach Randolph, Aldridge, etc would be force-fed the ball back in the 80's and 90's.

People love to diminish Howard as some no skilled, muscle pumped douche, but in reality he has plenty of skills that translate well, hence why he does score at an efficient rate. He'd be a good center in any era.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Disagree.

How would Hakeem NOT be not be more statistically dominant?

[plowking]

How would Hakeem NOT be not be more statistically dominant?

As I said. Rules put in place to stop big men being effective, and the fact the game is moving away from the big man simply due to defenses of today. Everything is geared towards getting the wings to take more shots.

What do you expect him to average? 35/15 now?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

As I said. Rules put in place to stop big men being effective, and the fact the game is moving away from the big man simply due to defenses of today. Everything is geared towards getting the wings to take more shots.

What do you expect him to average? 35/15 now?

I meant compared to today's centers. How would he not be better statistically than, say, Dwight?

And about the rules - they implemented the defensive three-second rule in 2001. Was Shaq still not dominant? Don't tell me you think something like "zone" would prevent Hakeem, a great midrange shooter, from dominating. :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Colts18...


I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

Exactly as I saw the series. There has been so much revisionist history regarding this nonsense that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in that series (and I don't give a damn about what Shaq said, either.)

Best case for Hakeem...a draw. Reality...Shaq, as he would his entire career against Hakeem, outplayed him (and there is no doubt as to who was the more dominant player in their career head-to-heads, either...Shaq outplayed Hakeem in EVERY facet of the game.)

The reality was, Hakeem's teammates wiped out Shaq's. They outshot Shaq's teammates by a huge margin; had every bit as much of an edge from the arc; and of course the stat that no one ever brings up...Take away Hakeem and Shaq's free throws, and Hakeem's teammates made 50 more FTs. The fact was, three of those four games were won at the FT line.

Hakeem outscored Shaq in that series by five pts per game...and did so with ten more FGAs per game. Shaq was superior in every other area of the game.

Hakeem has become vastly overrated in the last decade. And I find it amusing that very few actually take the time to look up their career head-to-heads. Very onesided in Shaq's favor.

[LAZERUSS]

As for the OP, no question that a title and another MVP will easily vault Lebron past Hakeem. There will be no criteria that exists that would place Hakeem over him.

[BlackJoker23]

As for the OP, no question that a title and another MVP will easily vault Lebron past Hakeem. There will be no criteria that exists that would place Hakeem over him.
your mother loves hakeem's c0ck a lot more jlauber

[LAZERUSS]

your mother loves hakeem's c0ck a lot more jlauber

This coming from the son of a toothless Georgian backwoods hillbilly.

[ripthekik]

As for the OP, no question that a title and another MVP will easily vault Lebron past Hakeem. There will be no criteria that exists that would place Hakeem over him.
teammates. road to playoffs.

:pimp:

[plowking]

I meant compared to today's centers. How would he not be better statistically than, say, Dwight?

And about the rules - they implemented the defensive three-second rule in 2001. Was Shaq still not dominant? Don't tell me you think something like "zone" would prevent Hakeem, a great midrange shooter, from dominating. :confusedshrug:

He would be more dominant than Dwight. I see him as a 25/12 player in this era, which would be exceptional for a big man.

Shaq was still dominant, but my point is, the effectiveness and focus of big men is taken away by today's game. If it were up to me, I wouldn't want it that way, but its the way it is. Hence the lack of dominant big men.

[Pointguard]

Disagree. Players like Al Jeff, Dwight Howard, Zach Randolph, Aldridge, etc would be force-fed the ball back in the 80's and 90's.

People love to diminish Howard as some no skilled, muscle pumped douche, but in reality he has plenty of skills that translate well, hence why he does score at an efficient rate. He'd be a good center in any era.

Yes, Howard is more like what a modern center has to be like. To me Hakeem is the only center that could move as fast as Howard does but Hakeem would be selective as to when he would up himself to that speed. Howard is really quick if you look at him in comparison to previous centers. And I don't know who I would have as more athletic/agile/explosive than him at center either. The one exception would be another speed player that didn't have a polished game but averaged 26 a game. Duncan who is considered a defensive great, who was very fundamental, often had trouble with both Amare and DH. So I think they would score the same regardless of era.

I think the game is a little bit faster and the cave condensing on the inside game would affect centers from other era's some.

[plowking]

Yes, Howard is more like what a modern center has to be like. To me Hakeem is the only center that could move as fast as Howard does but Hakeem would be selective as to when he would up himself to that speed. Howard is really quick if you look at him in comparison to previous centers. And I don't know who I would have as more athletic/agile/explosive than him at center either. The one exception would be another speed player that didn't have a polished game but averaged 26 a game. Duncan who is considered a defensive great, who was very fundamental, often had trouble with both Amare and DH. So I think they would score the same regardless of era.

I think the game is a little bit faster and the cave condensing on the inside game would affect centers from other era's some.

Yeah.

Speaking of centers, I think D-Rob's game would translate best out of most of the great centers. Loved to face up, had a great first step, and was a beast when it came to running up and down the court. His game would be suited to today's style.

[BlackVVaves]

There is legitimately zero argument that rose was better than lebron in 2011.

True, although Lebron wasn't better than Dwight Howard that year.

The MVP too often goes to players with the better "story." Which Rose had. But, Lebron was dominant but probably one of less dominant years in his prime, while Dwight was at his best and his impact on the course of the game defensively, paired with an improved productiveness offensively, made him the best player of the league that year.

So yea, I agree Lebron was better than Rose (IMO) in 2011 (certainly debatable, I mean Rose DID have a terrific year, and was largely un-guardable one on one). But, Dwight was even better than Bron that year.

[inclinerator]

Youngest team in the league? What was their average age.. 23?
I havent checked this stat.. but seems like they're the youngest team ever in the finals..

So congrats Heat, you beat the youngest team ever in the finals. :applause:
the team that demolished the lakers

[Pointguard]

Yeah.

Speaking of centers, I think D-Rob's game would translate best out of most of the great centers. Loved to face up, had a great first step, and was a beast when it came to running up and down the court. His game would be suited to today's style.

Yeah, imagine him with John Wall.

[DMAVS41]

You guys are being way to quick to dismiss Hakeem's title runs. Look at his team in 94 and look at his numbers in 95

This.

And honestly, regular season numbers don't mean all that much with the greats like this. Compare the playoff stats...you want to know what these guys do when it matters most.

Lebron

29/9/7 on 47/31/75

Hakeem

26/11/3 on 53/22/71

Now, those are a little misleading considering Hakeem played 3 years in the playoffs outside of his prime. And Hakeem's title run in 95 was amazing. 33/10/5...


I think Lebron does pass him if he wins the title and finals mvp this year. But if he doesn't, I'd still rank Hakeem higher. It's already getting pretty close though.

[Kblaze8855]

Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.

Id still rather have Hakeem on my team. All the rest is pretty whatever to me in situations like this where I have seen the entire career of both sides. Im not guessing like I am with some older players.

I know what Hakeem could do...and Lebron. Not taking Lebron. Its not like....5 levels apart. But its not something id have to look at the team first either.

Id take Hakeem every time. Too disruptive on defense with the right mix of skill and aggression on offense.

If Lebron more often played the way hes capable of id take him. Id take out to prove a point Lebron over Hakeem. I wouldnt take average Lebron though.

[TheMan]

Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah. The MVP is not a great tool to rate players against each other for several reasons. For one, the voting rules have changed. The players themselves used to vote. Now the media does. Also the definition of what truly is the MVP has never been defined.

Michael Jordan should probably have 10 MVPs, but instead he only has 5. The voters change their opinions from year to year on who should get the award. Sometimes they like to crown a past champion, and sometimes they get fatigue and want to give it to a new guy.


On top of that, the competition is different from era to era. Dirk has an MVP, but he never competed with Magic, Bird, nor Michael to get it. It's just an awful awful awful way to try to judge players from different eras.
Great post

MJ battled all time greats in their prime for MVP the likes of Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, DRobinson, Hakeem, Shaq etc.

Let's be real, LBJ competition for MVPs are nowhere near that level considering that most of them are either old or injured. Who's his biggest comp? KD? Fair enough but he's still only 23? Who's next? Melo? Paul? lol

[DMAVS41]

Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.

Id still rather have Hakeem on my team. All the rest is pretty whatever to me in situations like this where I have seen the entire career of both sides. Im not guessing like I am with some older players.

I know what Hakeem could do...and Lebron. Not taking Lebron. Its not like....5 levels apart. But its not something id have to look at the team first either.

Id take Hakeem every time. Too disruptive on defense with the right mix of skill and aggression on offense.

If Lebron more often played the way hes capable of id take him. Id take out to prove a point Lebron over Hakeem. I wouldnt take average Lebron though.

Meh...you over-rate Hakeem's impact. Not by a lot, but enough if you would take Hakeem in every situation.

[ripthekik]

Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.

How is his resume better? He has 1 ring on a stacked team in a weak era. Hakeem has 2 on a weak team in a strong era.

I agree with the rest of your post though.



MJ battled all time greats in their prime for MVP the likes of Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, DRobinson, Hakeem, Shaq etc.

Let's be real, LBJ competition for MVPs are nowhere near that level considering that most of them are either old or injured. Who's his biggest comp? KD? Fair enough but he's still only 23? Who's next? Melo? Paul? lol
:applause:
excellent post.

[Kblaze8855]

Every realistic situation. If you are gonna say who would I take if a team already had Shaq and Zo....thats one thing. But any reasonable....likely...situation?

No question who.

And its not as simple as impact. Hakeem might well not make say...the 09 Cavs win 66 games.

Im picking him because of what he allows me to do team building wise and us being in a league I can find a 20ppg swingman just laying outside some GMs window looking for a meal but I cant find a spare bigman I can depend on to save my life.

The only centers id call franchise players even potentially....Bynum and Dwight? One is a giant child...well...both are giant children...and one of them is a hurt one who gets sued by neighbors for too much weed smoke in the backyard.

Hakeem wasnt perfect...he got in fights and so on. He supposedly slapped a teammate or two...

But give me the shot to build a team around Hakeem where hes only gonna play a center likely to score 20 like...6 times a season...where the highest scoring 4/5 in the league does like 20 a game(Aldridge)?

He would have so much defensive freedom he wouldnt know what to do with it. Hes barely breaking a sweat defending his man. There is nobody left who makes you work on the boards and man to man(closest being Dwight or Bynum if he returns). Hakeem would have so much less to do in this league I cant imagine he doesnt find a way to excel even more at whats left.

I watched Dwight average like 27 a game for a stretch just off being fed the ball and not automatically kicking it back out. Hakeem isnt getting slowed by rule changes and he would have freedom on defense I feel a need to see.

Dwight was too effective on Orlando for me to believe Hakeem isnt gonna be better. And Dwight at his peak(2011) wasnt more than a step behind Lebron anyway.

[DMAVS41]

Every realistic situation. If you are gonna say who would I take if a team already had Shaq and Zo....thats one thing. But any reasonable....likely...situation?

No question who.

And its not as simple as impact. Hakeem might well not make say...the 09 Cavs win 66 games.

Im picking him because of what he allows me to do team building wise and us being in a league I can find a 20ppg swingman just laying outside some GMs window looking for a meal but I cant find a spare bigman I can depend on to save my life.

The only centers id call franchise players even potentially....Bynum and Dwight? One is a giant child...well...both are giant children...and one of them is a hurt one who gets sued by neighbors for too much weed smoke in the backyard.

Hakeem wasnt perfect...he got in fights and so on. He supposedly slapped a teammate or two...

But give me the shot to build a team around Hakeem where hes only gonna play a center likely to score 20 like...6 times a season...where the highest scoring 4/5 in the league does like 20 a game(Aldridge)?

He would have so much defensive freedom he wouldnt know what to do with it. Hes barely breaking a sweat defending his man. There is nobody left who makes you work on the boards and man to man(closest being Dwight or Bynum if he returns). Hakeem would have so much less to do in this league I cant imagine he doesnt find a way to excel even more at whats left.

I watched Dwight average like 27 a game for a stretch just off being fed the ball and not automatically kicking it back out. Hakeem isnt getting slowed by rule changes and he would have freedom on defense I feel a need to see.

Dwight was too effective on Orlando for me to believe Hakeem isnt gonna be better. And Dwight at his peak(2011) wasnt more than a step behind Lebron anyway.

Then maybe you don't over-rate Hakeem. Seem to under-rate Lebron then...at least last years Lebron and this year so far.

I'm not sure there has been a team in the league since 09 that Lebron wouldn't lead to 50 regular season wins.

I'm just curious. Would you also take Hakeem over Bird and Magic and Kobe everytime as well?

[Kblaze8855]

Then maybe you don't over-rate Hakeem. Seem to under-rate Lebron then...at least last years Lebron and this year so far.

I'm not sure there has been a team in the league since 09 that Lebron wouldn't lead to 50 regular season wins.

I'm just curious. Would you also take Hakeem over Bird and Magic and Kobe everytime as well?

No. Many times though. Im talking for today. His advantage over his peers would be much greater than theirs for the most part.

Kobe id take him over every time as well though. I suspect that leads into a "Why Magic/Bird at times and not Kobe/Lebron" thing that would make it seem like an old school/new school issue but it isnt. Hakeem is from the same era they are in a way. Shit if Magic went to 4 years of college he would have come in in what....81 or so?

I dont think Hakeem is flat better than all of them. But I think he would need to do the least to stand out these days.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lebron has reached a level of dominance where it's certainly debatable, but I'd still go with Dream and if Lebron never gets better than he is now, he'll remain behind Dream who was obviously on a completely different level defensively.

Amazing player to watch offensively as well. Could hit baseline fadeaways away from the double all day, but sometimes he'd do a quick spin as soon as he got the entry pass, and defenders were fooled by that constantly because he'd also sometimes shoot the fadeaway immediately after receiving the pass. Or he'd go to a little step through and jump hook in the lane, and sometimes he'd spin and end up getting swarmed, but find a wide open 3 point shooter.

[DMAVS41]

No. Many times though. Im talking for today. His advantage over his peers would be much greater than theirs for the most part.

Kobe id take him over every time as well though. I suspect that leads into a "Why Magic/Bird at times and not Kobe/Lebron" thing that would make it seem like an old school/new school issue but it isnt. Hakeem is from the same era they are in a way. Shit if Magic went to 4 years of college he would have come in in what....81 or so?

I dont think Hakeem is flat better than all of them. But I think he would need to do the least to stand out these days.

Not at all. I was just curious.

I guess I don't see how you can say you'd take Hakeem every time, but that is fine. I wouldn't obviously.

Although I do think it's a little difficult to defend your taking of Hakeem every time over Lebron...and not every time over Bird or Magic (especially with the defensive part of your argument)...but that is just me.

[pauk]

Got alot of work cut out for me here, lol... ill try reply as much as possible when i get home.

[VIntageNOvel]

Got alot of work cut out for me here, lol... ill try reply as much as possible when i get home.

writing another essay :applause:

[Sarcastic]

Disagree. Players like Al Jeff, Dwight Howard, Zach Randolph, Aldridge, etc would be force-fed the ball back in the 80's and 90's.

People love to diminish Howard as some no skilled, muscle pumped douche, but in reality he has plenty of skills that translate well, hence why he does score at an efficient rate. He'd be a good center in any era.


Al Jefferson, Dwight Howard, Zach Randolph, and Aldridge are no where near the skill level of Hakeem Olajuwon.

Do you think people will pay $10,000 for a week to learn post moves from Dwight Howard? I seriously doubt it.

[Pointguard]

Magic and Bird brought the game to a different level. They decentralized the game. In its most basic form the center is closest to the basic and likely to get the easiest shots. But when thinker/skilled players came to the game it was like bringing an air dimension to a ground game or turning checkers to chess. You can flank a center by nature of his local. But try catching a guy that can fly and can be anywhere. Shaq was the most dominant center in modern times but he was a clear second to Jordan. With the way most of you rank players, Hakeem wouldn't be in this conversation if baseball wasn't in Jordan's heart.

I give Hakeem the individual defensive edge. He's is straight up better. But the team and mental aspect is way to much to overlook overall.

With four other players on the court and Lebron's influence on them is just going to give you more impact. Lebron's figuring out offenses at a level Hakeem simply can't and could not affect. Too many players on Miami overflow with crazy confidence.

Hakeem was one of the few centers that played the full Wilt model of center responsibilities. Score, Rebound, protect the paint, block, pass out of double teams, etc. If you are a traditionalist he's doing all of this, together, at the highest level in modern times.

Lebron is unique in that his level of responsibility from the perimeter is as complete in obvious responsibilities. But there is a big difference. Lebron adapts at levels Hakeem never could. Lebron can ignite his team into the best running team in the league. Or he can slow the game down. He can choose which players he wants to get on. He can flip the opponents game plan on them. He can go outside if they pack the game in. He will penetrate or post if they don't. He can do all of this on the fly with his teammates excelling with him and feeding off of it.

I am not so ready to give Hakeem total impact on the defensive end either.
On the defensive end Lebron's team is a bit better than any Hakeem team I can recall. The real kicker is that when Lebron is not playing they aren't that good. And its something you have to consider. Lebron's versatility, in the present game, means he can guard directly almost any player in the game (a legit 98%+) now and slow them down some. Hakeem was great defensively but he was going to watch Jordan beat him without much interference. At least Lebron could be effective in some way. Adaption is major.

Lebron keeps his shooters happy, he can adapt his team into a great defense, assist with their great shooting, lead them into the best running game, he can break the defense down in at least a half dozen ways, he mentally refocus his team to change at a whole different level. Hakeem was great under the basket but the game isn't played there anymore and everybody knows where to look for him. The sword had its day.

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem was great defensively but he was going to watch Jordan beat him without much interference. At least Lebron could be effective in some way. Adaption is major.


Just stuck out to me....




The Rockets, in fact, had a 5-1 record vs. Jordan and the Bulls from 1991 through 1993, the span of Chicago's first "three-peat."

After a loss on his home floor at Chicago Stadium in 1993, Jordan said, "We have no answer for the big guy. It's a good thing they won't ever make it to the (NBA) Finals, because I don't think we could beat them."


In some of those games he had:

23/10/5 7 blocks and 2 steals

32/17/ 9 blocks and 3 steals

24/11/8 blocks

28/13/7/5/4

18/17/ 5 blocks 4 steals

28/11/ 6 blocks


Hell he had 32/16/5/4/4 vs us when he was older.

I remember them playing the Rockets...hakeem did not just watch Jordan beat him. He usually beat Jordan when they were both top of their games in the early 90s.

[daj0264]

Lebron isnt even in the top 20 ever what makes people think he is better than Hakeem?

[dh144498]

Lebron isnt even in the top 20 ever what makes people think he is better than Hakeem?

:applause:

[aj1987]

Got alot of work cut out for me here, lol... ill try reply as much as possible when i get home.
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/wsg/image/1339/64/1339642005135.gif

[Kblaze8855]

I might just lock it right now to be a dick.

[dh144498]

I might just lock it right now to be a dick.

:roll: :lol

[Greg Oden 50]

LeBron plays in a weak era hv no Quailty Big Man,ThUnders are the the worst Finals Team in NBA All timE:banana:

[pauk]

Steve Nash has more MVPs than Isiah Thomas. That doesn't make him better. Heck Derrick Rose has more MVPs than Isiah. The MVP is not a great tool to rate players against each other for several reasons. For one, the voting rules have changed. The players themselves used to vote. Now the media does. Also the definition of what truly is the MVP has never been defined.

Michael Jordan should probably have 10 MVPs, but instead he only has 5. The voters change their opinions from year to year on who should get the award. Sometimes they like to crown a past champion, and sometimes they get fatigue and want to give it to a new guy.


On top of that, the competition is different from era to era. Dirk has an MVP, but he never competed with Magic, Bird, nor Michael to get it. It's just an awful awful awful way to try to judge players from different eras.

Its about context in which Lebron indeed was the best player in the game with or without MVP... and Lebron didnt have 1 MVP or 2 MVPs....... he had 4 MVPs..... 1... 2... 3... 4....

[daj0264]

Its about context in which Lebron indeed was the best player in the game with or without MVP... and Lebron didnt have 1 MVP or 2 MVPs....... he had 4 MVPs..... 1... 2... 3... 4....


How many mvps?

[Greg Oden 50]

Its about context in which Lebron indeed was the best player in the game with or without MVP... and Lebron didnt have 1 MVP or 2 MVPs....... he had 4 MVPs..... 1... 2... 3... 4....

LBJ hv no DPOY,never avg 40 ppg in any series :roll:

[pauk]

I see you still haven't learned or gotten over your old ways, despite claiming many times you're not the same poster you use to be.

What did i do wrong? I placed all the NBA accolades, you may dismiss whichever you want.... but please if you cant be respectful, cultivated and give your 2 cents on this topic then please stay of my face, i really had enough of your attitude...

[daj0264]

What did i do wrong? I placed all the NBA accolades, you may dismiss whichever you want.... but please if you cant be respectful, cultivated and give your 2 cents on this topic then please stay of my face, i really had enough of your attitude...


Did you mention how many times he has choked or how he had to go to a team with 2 other superstars on to even sniff a ring.

[pauk]

Just depends on if you mean basketball or resume. Lebron has a better resume already than most legends. Hes gonna blow Hakeems away.

Id still rather have Hakeem on my team. All the rest is pretty whatever to me in situations like this where I have seen the entire career of both sides. Im not guessing like I am with some older players.

I know what Hakeem could do...and Lebron. Not taking Lebron. Its not like....5 levels apart. But its not something id have to look at the team first either.

Id take Hakeem every time. Too disruptive on defense with the right mix of skill and aggression on offense.

If Lebron more often played the way hes capable of id take him. Id take out to prove a point Lebron over Hakeem. I wouldnt take average Lebron though.

Sure I understand, especially in this weak Center era i think most would have a very tough time turning down Hakeem, even if the other choice was Jordan....

[DMAVS41]

I might just lock it right now to be a dick.

Can you talk about why "defensive impact" was part of your reason with Hakeem...but then said you wouldn't take him over Bird/Magic every time...but would over Lebron.

Seems like those don't go hand in hand.

[pauk]

Did you mention how many times he has choked or how he had to go to a team with 2 other superstars on to even sniff a ring.

Man... these April 2013 posters..

[daj0264]

Man... these April 2013 posters..


I know we're good but thanks for the compliment.

[KG215]

What did i do wrong? I placed all the NBA accolades, you may dismiss whichever you want.... but please if you cant be respectful, cultivated and give your 2 cents on this topic then please stay off my face, i really had enough of your attitude...
Why, then, did you feel the need to include POTM, and something as subjective as best player? We've been over the POTM thing countless times before. Not only is it fairly meaningless, using it to do a side-by-side resume comparison of two players from different eras when the award wasn't the same makes zero sense.

And stay off your face? I apologize for that...I guess. You said you weren't going to be the same type of LeBron d***riding poster you used to be. You've posted it numerous times and even sent me some PM's about it awhile back. You relapsed big time with your 1,500 word essay over a a blocked shot if a damn All-Star game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Can you talk about why "defensive impact" was part of your reason with Hakeem...but then said you wouldn't take him over Bird/Magic every time...but would over Lebron.

Seems like those don't go hand in hand.

Not necessarily, he might just think that Bird and Magic were noticeably better than Lebron offensively. Or that those 2 along with Hakeem having consistently better performances in the playoffs makes a difference.

I don't care which side of the argument anyone's on, but those things could explain someone taking Hakeem over Lebron, but not Bird and Magic.

As I said, I have Hakeem over Lebron and it will probably remain that way unless Lebron gets even better than he is now, but don't think it's a big enough gap for picking either to be unreasonable. Actually, I'd probably take Hakeem over all 3, in large part due to his play at both ends.

[Brunch@Five]

Discussions involving Hakeem always tend to focus on just his title runs. Of course he was a flashy scorer and great defender, but look at how his teams performed:

48 wins, 1st round exit
51, finals
42 2nd round
46 1st round
45 1st
41 1st
52 1st
42 missed playoffs
55 2nd round
58 champions
47 champions
48 2nd round (swept)
57 WCF
41 1st round
31-19 1st

was a role player afterwards.
That looks considerably more like Kevin Garnett than Lebron James. 6 1st round exits as a #1 option, missed playoffs once. 4 out of 15 years WCF or better.
That's not necessarily a terrible resum

[DMAVS41]

Not necessarily, he might just think that Bird and Magic were noticeably better than Lebron offensively. Or that those 2 along with Hakeem having consistently better performances in the playoffs makes a difference.

I don't care which side of the argument anyone's on, but those things could explain someone taking Hakeem over Lebron, but not Bird and Magic.

As I said, I have Hakeem over Lebron and it will probably remain that way unless Lebron gets even better than he is now, but don't think it's a big enough gap for picking either to be unreasonable. Actually, I'd probably take Hakeem over all 3, in large part due to his play at both ends.

I'm fine, with any reasoning...as long as it stays consistent.

I just think you get into a very difficult area in taking Hakeem every time over Lebron...but not Bird/Magic. Reasons need to be given for that reasoning.

And defense and playoff performances (not saying those are the reasons given) are obviously not valid.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Discussions involving Hakeem always tend to focus on just his title runs. Of course he was a flashy scorer and great defender, but look at how his teams performed:

48 wins, 1st round exit
51, finals
42 2nd round
46 1st round
45 1st
41 1st
52 1st
42 missed playoffs
55 2nd round
58 champions
47 champions
48 2nd round (swept)
57 WCF
41 1st round
31-19 1st

was a role player afterwards.
That looks considerably more like Kevin Garnett than Lebron James. 6 1st round exits as a #1 option, missed playoffs once. 4 out of 15 years WCF or better.
That's not necessarily a terrible resum

[Brunch@Five]

It's hard with Hakeem, because in 94 and 95 he proved able to do stuff that very few NBA players in the history of the game have been able to do. Stuff that Lebron never did....now, that doesn't mean Hakeem wins just off that...as MJ never won with teams like that either...but it matters.

So it's hard to talk about all the playoff first round losses and such...when you have 94 and 95 right in front of you.

well it does matter if we're not talking about players' primes only.
When current players are concerned, we never omit their "dark years", i.e. KG and TMac not getting past the 1st round, Dirk's and LeBron's playoff "failures", Kobes early post-Shaq years. Because we have seen all those years.
Who here actually saw DRob, Ewing, Shaq and Hakeem pre 95?

[DMAVS41]

well it does matter if we're not talking about players' primes only.
When current players are concerned, we never omit their "dark years", i.e. KG and TMac not getting past the 1st round, Dirk's and LeBron's playoff "failures", Kobes early post-Shaq years. Because we have seen all those years.
Who here actually saw DRob, Ewing, Shaq and Hakeem pre 95?

Well, the problem is that Hakeem never had a moment like Lebron in 11. Hakeem played on a lot of poor teams and average teams.

So while everything matters, maybe it was his teams holding him back most of the time.

Where in the case of Lebron in 11...it was his play. Huge difference in my opinion.

[pauk]

Why, then, did you feel the need to include POTM, and something as subjective as best player? We've been over the POTM thing countless times before. Not only is it fairly meaningless, using it to do a side-by-side resume comparison of two players from different eras when the award wasn't the same makes zero sense.

You dont feel the same way about All-Star MVP or anything else?

Here is what you missed about POTM which i said earlier:

"Having more POTM than somebody else in theory is kindof useless.... but should not be disregarded because this tells a very important story/context...
Because the POTM is the same criteria as MVP & given out by the same establishment, a player who had many more POTM is a player who has been the MVP of the month (which is not a very short time) many more times...... a player who has won the most POTM in a season usually ends up with the MVP aswell......... a player who has won the more POTMs for his career has therefore probably ended up with more MVPs aswell......
In Lebrons case this story is very correct....

...and if that player (Lebron) has many more MVPs that means that player has been a MORE VALUABLE PLAYER many more years & months than the player compared to (Hakeem)........ which hints at the probability of Lebron being a more impactful player than Hakeem was.... at least for a longer time.... for you to win the MVP your productiveness/individual talent/skill needs to translate to more TEAM SUCCESS/WINS than anybody else.....

MVP is a very important award.... and to get it you will need to unfortunately be POTM in that season many times, no matter how useless it is it still leads you towards the award which is not so useless."



And stay off your face? I apologize for that...I guess. You said you weren't going to be the same type of LeBron d***riding poster you used to be.

No, i said i was not gona clown/troll like i did long time ago.... but the so called Lebron "***riding" will remain as long as he plays the way he does, i love great basketball and especially when that player plays it the right way.... With that being said, i love Hakeem aswell...

I am sorry but i dont think its a crime to like Lebron or any other player.... as long as you are coherent, factual, logical and objective in your assumptions then its no problem whatsoever.....

After seeing so many posters here claiming "Its not even close between Lebron & Hakeem" i thought i would retaliate with this thread and discuss this.... in ISH you would usually be called a Lebron dickrider (feeling hit?), a Lebron stan, whatever even if you by just simple logic, objectivity and facts proved why that claim is not actually true......... like i did here...

I am absolutely getting tired of getting called a Lebron ***rider when the truth is i am actually talking to mostly Lebron haters (fans who are in denial and do/say anything to downplay him and overrated anybody who is compared).... look around...

[ShaqAttack3234]

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Discussions involving Hakeem always tend to focus on just his title runs. Of course he was a flashy scorer and great defender, but look at how his teams performed:

48 wins, 1st round exit
51, finals
42 2nd round
46 1st round
45 1st
41 1st
52 1st
42 missed playoffs
55 2nd round
58 champions
47 champions
48 2nd round (swept)
57 WCF
41 1st round
31-19 1st

was a role player afterwards.
That looks considerably more like Kevin Garnett than Lebron James. 6 1st round exits as a #1 option, missed playoffs once. 4 out of 15 years WCF or better.
That's not necessarily a terrible resum

[DMAVS41]

Hakeem was one of the most unfortunate top 10 type players as far as teammates go, and didn't always have championship-caliber coaches either.

Houston was supposed to contend for years with the twin towers, but Sampson declined rapidly with injuries starting in Hakeem's 3rd year and was traded midway through his 4th year.

Hakeem did raise his game in the playoffs as much as any all-time great I can think of though except for maybe Jordan.

'86 run was obviously remarkable, especially for a 2nd year player, but look at 1987, nearly willed his Rockets single-handedly to a game 7 vs Seattle with 49/25/6 in a double OT loss and I remember Ralph Sampson missing a free throw either late in regulation or the 1st OT that would have probably sealed the win. It's been a while since I've seen that game, but I also remember a non-call when a Sonic goaltended Hakeem's shot which would have given him a shot at a 3 point play, late, instead, he made both free throws.

Then in '88, he lost in the 1st round, but averaged 38/17 including a 41/26 game 2 and 40/15 in the elimination game. And this was vs a very talented Mavs team that took the champion Lakers to 7 in the WCF.

In '93, he lost in OT of game 7 of the WCSF to a stacked Sonic team with some bad calls most likely being the difference.

In '91, they won 52 games, but ran into the Lakers in the 1st round. They also played the Lakers in '90 during the first round, though I'll concede that Houston should have been better than 41-41. '92 team underachieved, partially due to chemistry since this was the period when all of the negatives were being brought up about Hakeem, but they were 40-30 with Hakeem and just 2-10 without him, so this says as much about how much he often carried Houston as anything.

Only time he played poorly in series he lost other than '99 when he was 36 were '90 and '96, and he was swarmed by multiple defenders in both series. Seattle was known for their trapping and double teaming, and there was a stat mentioned in the Laker series about how often Hakeem was doubled and it was astounding. He was a beast defensively in the Laker series as well, iirc and both those teams were undoubtedly better and more talented.

Hell, a lot of people thought the '96 Lakers would beat Houston in the 1st round since Magic had returned, Houston had struggled with a lot of injuries and the Lakers had HCA. Pretty much every key Rocket missed at least 10 games in '96. Hakeem missed 10 games, Drexler missed 30, Horry missed 11, Cassell missed 21, Mario Elie missed 37 and Kenny Smith missed 14.

Looking at Hakeem's actual performances throughout the years, I have a hard time faulting him for playoff losses. I'm fine with him being criticized for the '90 and '96 series, and he wasn't great in the '91 series either, though you'd have a hard time convincing me he should have beat Magic's Lakers or the Kemp/Payton/Schrempf Sonics.



How are they not valid?

Because Lebron plays infinitely better defense than both Bird/Magic.

And the playoff histories of Bird/Magic....especially Bird... are hardly without fault.

[Pointguard]

Just stuck out to me....

In some of those games he had:

23/10/5 7 blocks and 2 steals

32/17/ 9 blocks and 3 steals

24/11/8 blocks

28/13/7/5/4

18/17/ 5 blocks 4 steals

28/11/ 6 blocks


Hell he had 32/16/5/4/4 vs us when he was older.

I remember them playing the Rockets...hakeem did not just watch Jordan beat him. He usually beat Jordan when they were both top of their games in the early 90s.
Hey, when Jordan came back he imitated his game big time. But postseason, when all the chips are down... I kind of think that's different. While I love Hakeem's game, he wasn't the best center around, even then, and the two great centers were both spectators.

[Quintilianus]

You dont feel the same way about All-Star MVP or anything else?

Here is what you missed about POTM which i said earlier:

"Having more POTM than somebody else in theory is kindof useless.... but should not be disregarded because this tells a very important story/context...
Because the POTM is the same criteria as MVP & given out by the same establishment, a player who had many more POTM is a player who has been the MVP of the month (which is not a very short time) many more times...... a player who has won the most POTM in a season usually ends up with the MVP aswell......... a player who has won the more POTMs for his career has therefore probably ended up with more MVPs aswell......
In Lebrons case this story is very correct....

...and if that player (Lebron) has many more MVPs that means that player has been a MORE VALUABLE PLAYER many more years & months than the player compared to (Hakeem)........ which hints at the probability of Lebron being a more impactful player than Hakeem was.... at least for a longer time.... for you to win the MVP your productiveness/individual talent/skill needs to translate to more TEAM SUCCESS/WINS than anybody else.....

MVP is a very important award.... and to get it you will need to unfortunately be POTM in that season many times, no matter how useless it is it still leads you towards the award which is not so useless."



No, i said i was not gona clown/troll like i did long time ago.... but the so called Lebron "***riding" will remain as long as he plays the way he does, i love great basketball and especially when that player plays it the right way.... With that being said, i love Hakeem aswell...

I am sorry but i dont think its a crime to like Lebron or any other player.... as long as you are coherent, factual, logical and objective in your assumptions then its no problem whatsoever.....

After seeing so many posters here claiming "Its not even close between Lebron & Hakeem" i thought i would retaliate with this thread and discuss this.... in ISH you would usually be called a Lebron dickrider (feeling hit?), a Lebron stan, whatever even if you by just simple logic, objectivity and facts proved why that claim is not actually true......... like i did here...

I am absolutely getting tired of getting called a Lebron ***rider when the truth is i am actually talking to mostly Lebron haters (fans who are in denial and do/say anything to downplay him and overrated anybody who is compared).... look around...

Definitely not, that's a very flawed logic.
That's like saying that Duncan is not one of the best defenders ever because he doesn't have a DPOY.
MVPs are worthless, they're made for mass public, doesn't even have any official criteria, is chosen by a board of idiots that work at espn.
If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely not, that's a very flawed logic.
That's like saying that Duncan is not one of the best defenders ever because he doesn't have a DPOY.
MVPs are worthless, they're made for mass public, doesn't even have any official criteria, is chosen by a board of idiots that work at espn.
If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.

MVP's are not worthless. They are not the end all be all, but it shows a player separating himself from his peers.

Lebron has done that an absurd amount already in his young career. He really might win 7 or more MVP's...which, not matter what you think, would be amazing...and does matter.

It's not the act of winning MVP...it's what the award represents and what a player has to do to get one. They aren't easy to get...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because Lebron plays infinitely better defense than both Bird/Magic.

And the playoff histories of Bird/Magic....especially Bird... are hardly without fault.

Yes, but it's an opinion whether that makes more of a difference than their offense.

Nobodies playoff histories are without fault, but both Bird and Magic have a better history in the playoffs than Lebron. Not only more rings, but despite some bad performances, none that are puzzling the way Lebron's 2011 finals or last 3 games vs Boston are, in addition to back to back years where he lost shooting 35-36% and averaging between 5-6 turnovers.

Right now, I'm sort of waiting to see how Lebron handles the playoffs because after his history, I still have to see him do really well again, even after a truly great playoff run and ring. As of now, he's a remarkable player, and as long as he sustains it in the playoffs, he'll rank really high for me.

[Quintilianus]

MVP's are not worthless. They are not the end all be all, but it shows a player separating himself from his peers.

Lebron has done that an absurd amount already in his young career. He really might win 7 or more MVP's...which, not matter what you think, would be amazing...and does matter.

It's not the act of winning MVP...it's what the award represents and what a player has to do to get one. They aren't easy to get...
This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.

[dh144498]

This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.

:applause:

[Quintilianus]

Bird is really underrated all-time as a defender. Dude could defend at an above average level, in his prime, before braking his back he probably was as good as lebron is now as a defender. Maybe not as versatile, but versatility isn't used so often to be a very major factor
This board likes stats, check out his defensive rating before he destroyed his back (hint: It's first number is 9)

[DMAVS41]

This is his first MVP that he's kinda seperated from the league. And durant fell out of this mostly because OKC started blowing everybody out and he sat out quarter by quarter, it's not like he's infinitely better than Durant.
MVP caliber season is the same shit as MVP.
Nobody is celebrated for mvps besides lebron, I just don't get this, seems like espn and his fans are trying to turn everything that was traditional about basketball around.

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL

[Pointguard]

I see the Lebron/Hakeem comparison like this:

If I had five fighters, say young clear headed Ali, and four drones and you have foggy headed Mike Tyson (make him equal in talent with Ali but more power up close and his upper body movement make his unhittable by ONE drone) who has a duplicated four drones. Ali is tied into his drones and can get them to go to spots where they are most effective. Ali can also adapt, change strategies, morph into his drones at any given time for a quick moment - making them faster and able to hit from further distances. They even work together to make a better defense than Mike's team. Mike Tyson has no connection with his drones but looks like the best fighter.

When you have the dimension of thinking, adaption, versatility, all skills, great team skills on both sides of the ball, being deadly on all parts of the court, got a connection with all teammates, its a different level than the I'm great around the basket game. Tho, Hakeem could pass it wasn't a team amp type of thing. I'm not even giving Hakeem the team defensive edge, much less the offense.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, but it's an opinion whether that makes more of a difference than their offense.

Nobodies playoff histories are without fault, but both Bird and Magic have a better history in the playoffs than Lebron. Not only more rings, but despite some bad performances, none that are puzzling the way Lebron's 2011 finals or last 3 games vs Boston are, in addition to back to back years where he lost shooting 35-36% and averaging between 5-6 turnovers.

Right now, I'm sort of waiting to see how Lebron handles the playoffs because after his history, I still have to see him do really well again, even after a truly great playoff run and ring. As of now, he's a remarkable player, and as long as he sustains it in the playoffs, he'll rank really high for me.

Like I said...I just want consistency. I think it's a very weak argument to take Hakeem over Lebron and not Bird/Magic using playoff consistency...

But, of course, we have to see Lebron's career play out. He's got to win this year for sure to really get into this debate for real. A loss in the playoffs this year...combined with 10 and 11...and it will be just too much to overcome.

I've written about it in the past....one more black mark for Lebron in his prime and it's going to be hard for me to ever rank him above Duncan (who I have 6th all time)

[K Xerxes]

If you want anything with individual awards, FMVP is worth like five times more than a regular season mvp.

Finals MVPs is a hugely flawed reward and only really tends to distort what actually happened. First, it only captures the finals, not the entire gruelling regular season schedule or the first three rounds of the post season. It (except in one exceptional case) rewards a player on the WINNING team, but there may have been an incredible player on the losing team that was actually the most valuable, but lost out to the better TEAM.

Parker won the Finals MVP in the 2007 Cavs sweep, but Duncan was the best player and the leader for them in the playoffs. Duncan will be known as winning 4 rings and 3 as the man, when in actual fact he won 4 as the man with Parker having one good series against the vastly inferior, unorganised and inexperienced Cavs.

Shaq's dominance in 00-02 is in history with his 3 finals MVPs, but apart from Kobe fanatics and people that have watched these series carefully, Kobe was apparently just a 'role player'. Bull, Kobe was an integral part in 2001 and 2002, almost as much so as Shaq. You get nonsense like 'Shaq carried Kobe to three titles' because people only look at finals MVPs.

Magic had that historic 42-15-7 game at center to close out the '80 finals, but everyone forgets that Kareem was the best player and leader of that team throughout the season and the playoffs. Magic averaged 18-9 in the playoffs, Kareem had 32-12. Magic had an incredible finals, and he'll be remembered as the MVP of those finals, but will anyone remember Kareem's dominant display of 33-14 in 5 games in the finals? Or will they just remember that Kareem won 6 rings with 'only' 2 as the man.

[All Net]

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL

and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.

Lately people have talked more about Melo.

[DMAVS41]

and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.

Lately people have talked more about Melo.

Small market....Duncan syndrome. If you transported the OKC team to NYC...it would be different.

[Quintilianus]

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL
Yeah, but he's not that better than durant as everybody is making out to be. I'd say it's like 5 percent difference between them, if lebron is 100, than Durant is 95, all he needs is to grow a pair of real balls, not the fake ones he's trying to demonstrate in this season. But maybe i'm too quick to judge, maybe he'll prove me wrong in the playoffs and play like a real man should.
Unanimous as in none of those great espn minds are going to vote for anybody else? Wow, now that's an achievement for ages, i'm going to tell my kids about it for sure... :facepalm
This is just ridiculous, MJ would've been considered by a wide majority the best even without his 5 mvps, Kareem's legacy wouldn't have been hurt either, i'm not even gonna mention other players, because I would be required to bring in context, and that's the thing that LeBron fans hate like a sparkly twilight vampire hates the sun

[ShaqAttack3234]

What you think of MVP's is not really my concern. I simply made the point that they do matter...and they are hard to win.

However, Lebron has proven to be a lot better than Durant. Which is saying a lot since Durant has really improved his game this year tremendously. He's having a 28/8/5 season on some of the best efficiency ever...and he's improved his defense...on a 60 win team.

And Lebron is going to be a unanimous MVP....LOL

You don't really "win" MVPs, you just play at a certain level and then hope for the most votes. Whether they matter or not is up to the individual. Personally, I don't see why a subjective award would matter.

As far as being unanimous, it's possible, but I don't know, we've seen some people get close, but if Shaq missed by 1 vote in 2000, then it's certainly no guarantee.


and Durant doesn't get much attention oddly.

Lately people have talked more about Melo.

That's because Melo just went on a ridiculous hot streak while Durant has been playing closer to his usual level, which is great, but not difficult to see why Melo gets more attention lately.


Like I said...I just want consistency. I think it's a very weak argument to take Hakeem over Lebron and not Bird/Magic using playoff consistency...

But, of course, we have to see Lebron's career play out. He's got to win this year for sure to really get into this debate for real. A loss in the playoffs this year...combined with 10 and 11...and it will be just too much to overcome.

I've written about it in the past....one more black mark for Lebron in his prime and it's going to be hard for me to ever rank him above Duncan (who I have 6th all time)

I don't disagree with much here except the first part. I don't think that logic lacks consistency at all considering Magic and Bird don't have the black marks to the extent Lebron does, and I think the last part of your post is a good example of why this matters. I agree that with one more of those, it will affect where I rank him. But because of that, he has to prove to me that he really has gotten past that with another great run. If he does that, then I can just look at him as a player more, and that may get him into my second tier with Hakeem, Shaq and Bird. My first tier is currently Jordan, Russell and Kareem, and I couldn't see myself ever putting Lebron right on their level.

[crisoner]

Only numbers that matter

LeBron 1 Hakeem 2

[All Net]

Only numbers that matter

LeBron 1 Hakeem 2

Can't just be about rings..

[DMAVS41]

You don't really "win" MVPs, you just play at a certain level and then hope for the most votes. Whether they matter or not is up to the individual. Personally, I don't see why a subjective award would matter.

As far as being unanimous, it's possible, but I don't know, we've seen some people get close, but if Shaq missed by 1 vote in 2000, then it's certainly no guarantee.



That's because Melo just went on a ridiculous hot streak while Durant has been playing closer to his usual level, which is great, but not difficult to see why Melo gets more attention lately.



I don't disagree with much here except the first part. I don't think that logic lacks consistency at all considering Magic and Bird don't have the black marks to the extent Lebron does, and I think the last part of your post is a good example of why this matters. I agree that with one more of those, it will affect where I rank him. But because of that, he has to prove to me that he really has gotten past that with another great run. If he does that, then I can just look at him as a player more, and that may get him into my second tier with Hakeem, Shaq and Bird. My first tier is currently Jordan, Russell and Kareem, and I couldn't see myself ever putting Lebron right on their level.

The subjective award matters because it is about what it represents. This is not to say that it means the best player always wins, but to win...you have to do some special things...and it does validate a certain level of player. It's a reflection of a certain level of play and team success....and absolutely should matter.

Magic and Lebron also never played in the difficult situations Lebron did....and again, they had their failings...especially Bird. Losing plenty of big games and series.

I'm fine with holding 11 over Lebron. Totally agree with it. But I still don't see, at this point, the makings of a strong argument that playoff consistency is hugely in favor of Magic or Bird.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron would win the MVP by a mile no matter who voted.

The same questionable shit happened when the players voted. Wes Unseld won MVP over Wilt/Reed...while being factually worse....due to a team turnaround when he wasnt his teams best player. Reported to the playoffs to get swiftly swept and outplayed by Reed. hes not even an all star the following year.

Not hating on Wes...just saying. The players get swept up in the same hype the media does. The old US basketball writers MVP had the exact same results as the players every year but one...when they gave it to Wilt not Oscar. The sporting News MVP was the same as the player voted MVP all but 2 years from the 50s to the 80s...once they gave it to Nate Archibald(Led the league in scoring and assists) instead of Dave Cowens. neither gave it to Kareem...who did 30/16/5 on a 60 win team. The other year they had it different was giving it to Bernard King instead of Bird and Bernard was second in the NBA vote.

It would be the same no matter who votes damn near ever year.

[KG215]

That's because Melo just went on a ridiculous hot streak while Durant has been playing closer to his usual level, which is great, but not difficult to see why Melo gets more attention lately.

True, but it is a little weird that Durant's capping off a 28-8-5-2-1, 51/42/91 season on a 60 win team and it's almost becoming a mere footnote to the 2012-2013 season.

[Haks]

True, but it is little weird that Durant's capping off a 28-8-5-2-1, 51/42/91 season on a 60 win team and it's almost becoming a mere footnote to the 2012-2013 season.

Probably because of westbrooks excellent play post all star break kinda overshadowing kd's season

[Odinn]

If LeBron becomes the first unanimous MVP in the history, it will be a huge disgrace to the award history. What I mean is if Shaq didn't get all the 1st place votes in 1999-00 season(120 out of 121), LeBron does not deserve being the first unanimour MVP.

[DMAVS41]

True, but it is a little weird that Durant's capping off a 28-8-5-2-1, 51/42/91 season on a 60 win team and it's almost becoming a mere footnote to the 2012-2013 season.

Greatness of Lebron, the Miami win streak, Melo getting hot, Kobe...

But mainly...market. Which is hugely unfair, but if Durant was doing that in NYC as the best player of a 61 win team...it would be perceived completely different.

[KG215]

Greatness of Lebron, the Miami win streak, Melo getting hot, Kobe...

But mainly...market. Which is hugely unfair, but if Durant was doing that in NYC as the best player of a 61 win team...it would be perceived completely different.
Yeah, I think the market has the most to do with it. LeBron's insane season, too, but if Durant was doing this in New York or LA, people would be losing their shit. He could cure a lot of that by winning a title this year, but no one's beating the Heat 4 times in 7 games this year.

[LAZERUSS]

If LeBron becomes the first unanimous MVP in the history, it will be a huge disgrace to the award history. What I mean is if Shaq didn't get all the 1st place votes in 1999-00 season(120 out of 121), LeBron does not deserve being the first unanimour MVP.

Chamberlain not winning in '62 was, by far, the most disgraceful voting in league history. In fact, he was slighted his entire career. How about his '67 season, when he carried his team to a then best-ever mark of 69-13? He "only" received 80 out of the 105 total first place votes.

[Pointguard]

Chamberlain not winning in '62 was, by far, the most disgraceful voting in league history. In fact, he was slighted his entire career. How about his '67 season, when he carried his team to a then best-ever mark of 69-13? He "only" received 80 out of the 105 total first place votes.

Wilt probably had an honest 50 triple doubles that year and was probably double digits into quadruple doubles as well in '67 but blocks weren't counted. But he averaged 24 ppg which is left than half of what he averaged when he didn't win it in '62 and had 25 rebound to boot.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt probably had an honest 50 triple doubles that year and was probably double digits into quadruple doubles as well in '67 but blocks weren't counted. But he averaged 24 ppg which is left than half of what he averaged when he didn't win it in '62 and had 25 rebound to boot.

What was really compelling about the '62 voting, was that Chamberlain won by a large margin in his rookie season, playing on a team that had been i last place the year before, and taking them to a 49-26 record. Russell was a distant second that year in the voting, on a team that went 59-16.

In the '62 season, Russell's numbers were nearly identical to his '60 stats, ad his team record was similar, at 60-20. Wilt raised his '60 numbers significantly, and took that same basic roster, only older and with players playing worse, to a 49-31 record. And yet, he was well down behind Russell in the voting (51-9 in first place votes), and in fact, Oscar playing on a 43-37 team, had more first-place votes (13.)

But here again, go back and take a look at the MVP voting in every season in which Chamberlain played. There was certainly a suspicion of a conspiracy.

[ripthekik]

Someone honestly answer me.

If Lebron played a subpar game, would the Heat lose?
If Wade played a bad game, would the Heat lose?
If Bosh disappeared the whole game, would the Heat lose?

If Hakeem played a subpar game, would the Rockets lose?

There goes your answer. Hakeem's 1 ring is far more valuable than 3 of Lebron's. This is just the truth. Nothing but the truth.

[#number6ix#]

Someone honestly answer me.

If Lebron played a subpar game, would the Heat lose?
If Wade played a bad game, would the Heat lose?
If Bosh disappeared the whole game, would the Heat lose?

If Hakeem played a subpar game, would the Rockets lose?

There goes your answer. Hakeem's 1 ring is far more valuable than 3 of Lebron's. This is just the truth. Nothing but the truth.

No thats your opinion...Actually 1 ring = 1 ring your hate for lebron causes you to make outlandish statements...

Well in the 2011 finals lebron played bad and they loss so that's your answer

[ripthekik]

[/B]

No thats your opinion...Actually 1 ring = 1 ring your hate for lebron causes you to make outlandish statements...

Well in the 2011 finals lebron played bad and they loss so that's your answer
No, in that series Lebron played beyond subpar. He disappeared. Noticed how I have subpar, bad, and disappeared?

So that does not answer my questions. You didn't answer them one by one because you know the answer.

[#number6ix#]

No, in that series Lebron played beyond subpar. He disappeared. Noticed how I have subpar, bad, and disappeared?

So that does not answer my questions. You didn't answer them one by one because you know the answer.
It depends on the team they're playing and how the other role players are playing... I've seen games where Bosh and Wade played bad and the heat still won and I've seen games where lebron has played bad and the heat still won... Miami is a solid team we're more than a 3 player team

[ripthekik]

It depends on the team they're playing and how the other role players are playing... I've seen games where Bosh and Wade played bad and the heat still won and I've seen games where lebron has played bad and the heat still won... Miami is a solid team we're more than a 3 player team
That's right. You answered my questions.
Any of them can possibly play bad, yet the Heat will still win.

If Hakeem played bad, you think it's possible they still win? Check his stats for his 2 playoff runs.

So tell me Lebron's ring is weighted as much as Hakeem's? Nah.. The pressure on that man's shoulder to perform night in night out was tremendous. While Lebron could have 1 bad game in and here, or bad quarters in between, Hakeem doesn't have the luxury of a margin of error.

On paper, 1=1, but beyond that, respect and weight will simply be different for these 2 players.

[#number6ix#]

That's right. You answered my questions.
Any of them can possibly play bad, yet the Heat will still win.

If Hakeem played bad, you think it's possible they still win? Check his stats for his 2 playoff runs.

So tell me Lebron's ring is weighted as much as Hakeem's? Nah.. The pressure on that man's shoulder to perform night in night out was tremendous. While Lebron could have 1 bad game in and here, or bad quarters in between, Hakeem doesn't have the luxury of a margin of error.

On paper, 1=1, but beyond that, respect and weight will simply be different for these 2 players.
I can agree with you to a certain extend but you must admit lebron had more pressure to win a chip than anyone in nba history his whole legacy depended on that playoff run and he deliver... I'm sure you can respect that.

I can only remember 1 bad game lebron had in last year playoff run and that was game 3 vs the pacers which miami lost.

[ripthekik]

I can agree with you to a certain extend but you must admit lebron had more pressure to win a chip than anyone in nba history his whole legacy depended on that playoff run and he deliver... I'm sure you can respect that.

I can only remember 1 bad game lebron had in last year playoff run and that was game 3 vs the pacers which miami lost.
Glad to see you agree and see where I'm coming from.
Last year, game 6 I can definitely respect. But the other games, along with the championship this year.. is basically what I've stated. Just coast along, he can basically have a bad game here or there, won't matter. Heat have enough firepower to hold the fort and win the game, e.g. Wade and Bosh and now great role players.

So this year's ring won't be ranked in front of Hakeem's ring, considering everything: opponents, injuries, teammates, pressure, etc.

[Lebron23]

He's gonna surpass his mentor.

http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/common/medialib/264/606226.jpg

[Lebron23]

Glad to see you agree and see where I'm coming from.
Last year, game 6 I can definitely respect. But the other games, along with the championship this year.. is basically what I've stated. Just coast along, he can basically have a bad game here or there, won't matter. Heat have enough firepower to hold the fort and win the game, e.g. Wade and Bosh and now great role players.

So this year's ring won't be ranked in front of Hakeem's ring, considering everything: opponents, injuries, teammates, pressure, etc.


Do you also rank Hakeem over Kobe? Because Hakeem in 1994 and 1995 is better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010. And Kobe is just an above average Finals performer. 25 ppg on 41 FG%.

[ripthekik]

Do you also rank Hakeem over Kobe? Because Hakeem in 1994 and 1995 is better than Kobe in 2009 and 2010. And Kobe is just an above average Finals performer. 25 ppg on 41 FG%.
I would, if Kobe only had those 2 rings.
But Kobe has 5, the other 3 which he was a major contributor and was of importance.
When it gets to 5 > 2, you'll need a lot more reasons for those 2 to be bigger than 5. I don't need to worry about that for Lebron and Hakeem yet. Even if Lebron tied Hakeem in rings, all those stuff I talk above stands. I'll give more weight to Hakeem, therefore his ranking in the top 10 is still higher in my book.

[plowking]

This thread is absolutely embarrassing, full of Lebron haters.

So far I've learned to diminish Lebron in any conversation just by saying:
- MVP's actually don't mean anything
- Anyone who has more championships than Lebron is better
- Even when Lebron has more championships they're somehow worth less

Some of you would argue 2+2=5 if it suited your agenda.

[Lebron23]

I would, if Kobe only had those 2 rings.
But Kobe has 5, the other 3 which he was a major contributor and was of importance.
When it gets to 5 > 2, you'll need a lot more reasons for those 2 to be bigger than 5. I don't need to worry about that for Lebron and Hakeem yet. Even if Lebron tied Hakeem in rings, all those stuff I talk above stands. I'll give more weight to Hakeem, therefore his ranking in the top 10 is still higher in my book.


Do you also rank Kobe over Bird? Bird is the Superior Finals Perfoprmer, and he's also a 3x NBA MVP.

This is a very stupid logic. Kobe was not even the 2nd best player in the 2000 and 2001 NBA Finals. Miller, Rose, and Iverson put up better numbers than Kobe. Shaq was the undisputed best player in the Finals.

[Lebron23]

This thread is absolutely embarrassing, full of Lebron haters.

So far I've learned to diminish Lebron in any conversation just by saying:
- MVP's actually don't mean anything
- Anyone who has more championships than Lebron is better
- Even when Lebron has more championships they're somehow worth less

Some of you would argue 2+2=5 if it suited your agenda.


This

4x NBA MVP, 2x Finals MVP > 1 NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

[ripthekik]

Do you also rank Kobe over Bird? Bird is the Superior Finals Perfoprmer, and he's also a 3x NBA MVP.

This is a very stupid logic. Kobe was not even the 2nd best player in the 2000 and 2001 NBA Finals. Miller, Rose, and Iverson put up better numbers than Kobe. Shaq was the undisputed best in these series.
You're the only one who's lacking logic. I've answered all your questions, why do you keep jumping from one guy to the next? What's next, you're gonna ask me do I rank Magic over Kobe, Jordan over Kobe, :facepalm

I don't rank Kobe over Bird. And I've never said Kobe was the best player in those series. Don't see why you had to bring that up. Don't see why you keep throwing stupid questions out of nowhere really. WHY don't you dispute what I originally said about Hakeem and Lebron's ring weight?

Go buy some logic with your money, instead of the lebron ix's.

[red1]

two of the illest ballers to ever play the game

[Lebron23]

You're the only one who's lacking logic. I've answered all your questions, why do you keep jumping from one guy to the next? What's next, you're gonna ask me do I rank Magic over Kobe, Jordan over Kobe, :facepalm

I don't rank Kobe over Bird. And I've never said Kobe was the best player in those series. Don't see why you had to bring that up. Don't see why you keep throwing stupid questions out of nowhere really. WHY don't you dispute what I originally said about Hakeem and Lebron's ring weight?

Go buy some logic with your money, instead of the lebron ix's.


The 2012 OKC Thunder were a very good team. They beat the Lakers (09 and 10 Champion), The Mavericks ('11 Champion), and a veteran Spurs team in the playoffs (07 Champion). The Heat won the title because LeBron wanted to prove to the rest of the world that he's the best player in the NBA.

LeBron and the Heat bounced back after the Thunder beat them in Game 1.

[ripthekik]

The 2012 OKC Thunder were a very good team. They beat the Lakers (09 and 10 Champion), The Mavericks ('11 Champion), and a veteran Spurs team in the playoffs 07 Champion). The Heat won the title because LeBron wanted to prove to the rest of the world that he's the best player in the NBA.

LeBron and the Heat bounced back after the Thunder beat them in Game 1.
lol.. good attempt, at least you aren't copy-pasting or just saying "this" to other people's posts. But how does it answer my argument?

I said Lebron can have a bad game, bad quarter here and there, and it would go unnoticed. Heat would eventually still win, because they have Wade and Bosh to step up, and this year other role players too.

Hakeem doesn't haven't that luxury. Every single playoff game, he had to play it like Boston Game 6 for Lebron. Now do you see what I'm talking about? If he had an off game, they were losing. Who else could they depend on?

That's why Hakeem's 1 ring will trump 2 or 3 of Lebron's. His ranking is still higher in my book.

[Lebron23]

lol.. good attempt, at least you aren't copy-pasting or just saying "this" to other people's posts. But how does it answer my argument?

I said Lebron can have a bad game, bad quarter here and there, and it would go unnoticed. Heat would eventually still win, because they have Wade and Bosh to step up, and this year other role players too.

Hakeem doesn't haven't that luxury. Every single playoff game, he had to play it like Boston Game 6 for Lebron. Now do you see what I'm talking about? If he had an off game, they were losing. Who else could they depend on?

That's why Hakeem's 1 ring will trump 2 or 3 of Lebron's. His ranking is still higher in my book.


Both Wade and Bosh weren't 100% healthy in the 2012 NBA Playoffs. Bosh missed a lot of games in the post season. LeBron was Miami's best player in the first round up to the NBA Finals.

How many times Hakeem's team were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs?

[UnbiasedGuy]

I think it is silly to arbitrarily assign ring values such as "kobes first three rings only count as one, therefore he has 3" or "leref 0.5 rings :lol"

To claim something such as lebrons 3 rings = 1 hakeem ring is just straight up silly. If thats the case, then how many hakeem-rings does kobe have? How many does Jordan have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994-95_Houston_Rockets_season

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Miami_Heat_season

If you would click the two links and scroll down, you will see that, for the duration of the playoffs, Lebron's performance relative to his teammates is very similar to hakeens performance. Lets not act like It was Hakeem + scrubs. I wonder if in many years from now, people will view bosh+wade in the same vain as Hakeem's teammates?

I think I can agree that Hakeem had slightly more impact than lebron, but not a 1:3 ratio :roll: :roll: , maybe something like 110% or 120% of lebrons.

Back to back FMVPs, along with 4 MVPs in 5 years secures Lebron in the top 10

[ripthekik]

Both Wade and Bosh weren't 100% healthy in the 2012 NBA Playoffs. Bosh missed a lot of games in the post season. LeBron was Miami's best player in the first round up to the NBA Finals.

How many times Hakeem's team were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs?
None of that changes anything I said. I never said Lebron wasn't the best player out of the three. And guess what, even if Wade and Bosh weren't at 100%, they still allowed Lebron the margin of error to play bad here and there. So, good effort, but nothing you said there really matters or changed my argument. Guess you should go back to copy-pasting or quoting another poster's post and saying "this".

[Lebron23]

I think it is silly to arbitrarily assign ring values such as "kobes first three rings only count as one, therefore he has 3" or "leref 0.5 rings :lol"

To claim something such as lebrons 3 rings = 1 hakeem ring is just straight up silly. If thats the case, then how many hakeem-rings does kobe have? How many does Jordan have?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994-95_Houston_Rockets_season

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_Miami_Heat_season

If you would click the two links, you will see that, for the duration of the playoffs, Lebron's performance relative to his teammates is very similar to hakeens performance. Lets not act like It was Hakeem + scrubs. I wonder if in many years from now, people will view bosh+wade in the same vain as Hakeem's teammates?

Back to back FMVPs, along with 4 MVPs in 5 years secures Lebron in the top 10


/End Thread. LeBron will be a top 7-8 player of all time after this season.

4x MVP and 2x Finals MVP Club ( Best player in the NBA Finals)

Michael Jordan - 5x MVP, 6x Finals MVP
Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 6x MVP, 2x Finals MVP
Wilt Chamberlain - 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP
Bill Russell - 5x NBA MVP, possibly 8 or 9 Finals MVP
LeBron will be a part of this group if he wins another Finals MVP.

[ripthekik]

/End Thread. LeBron will be a top 7-8 player of all time after this season.

4x MVP and 2x Finals MVP Club ( Best player in the NBA Finals)

Michael Jordan - 5x MVP, 6x Finals MVP
Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 6x MVP, 2x Finals MVP
Wilt Chamberlain - 4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP
Bill Russell - 5x NBA MVP, possibly 8 or 9 Finals MVP
LeBron will be a part of this group if he wins another Finals MVP.
Back to what you do best, quoting others and posting random stats, just like I predicted :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

Hakeem. He didn't collude to win titles like Lebron did.