Kobe vs. Lebron (from an Ethics Standpoint)

[BBallZen83]

When it comes to the beat to death issue of Lebron vs. Kobe, I thought it would be interesting to look at it from an ethics point of view, and furthermore from an examination of character/virtue.
When it comes to ethics, I tend to steer clear of the extremes of the deontologists and utilitarians. I instead prefer Aristotelean thought. Aristotle specifically discuss the ideas of virtue, and what it is to be of virtuous character. According to Aristotle, virtue is a mean between excess and deficiency. For example, the virtue of courage with timidity being it's deficiency and brashness being it's excess.
I think the virtue of courage is the fundamental issue that lots of people debate the kobe vs. lebron dilemma over. For example, Lebron dissappears in 4th quarters, doesn't have the balls to make clutch shots, has shrunk in big moments, etc.... On the other side, Kobe's shot selection is poor, his shooting can border on the verge of petulant, he doesn't get team mates involved as much as he should, etc.... You know both arguments ad infinitum. The point is both sides have a point. I think there have been moments where Lebron has withered under the spotlight, and there are many instances of where Kobe has just plain shot too much and taken poor selection of shots.
So i guess you could say Kobe has bordered on brashness, and Lebron on timidity, neither of which is of a good virtuous character of courage. Courage to know when to take the shot, and when to pass. When to be the hero and when to defer. I personally think Lebron is more centered to the middle than Kobe, and he is gaining confidence every year(especially with the championship last year).

What are your thoughts from this perspective ISH?

[Psycho]

I think rape is unethical.

[BBallZen83]

I think rape is unethical.
duly noted.

[pegasus]

http://www.paragraph.me/shorts/images/01.PNG

[Quintilianus]

Kobe was an absolutely perfect mix between that in 08-10. Most underrated peak of any superstar not naming elgin baylor or hakeem.

[BBallZen83]

Kobe was an absolutely perfect mix between that in 08-10. Most underrated peak of any superstar not naming elgin baylor or hakeem.
I agree. He still had his moments during the two peat, but he did seem to have more faith in teammates. Gasol was obviously essential.

[chips93]

i dont know why op tried to make it sound so complicated, citing aristotle and shit, it comes down to kobe shoots too much and lebron is too passive.

dont mean to be a dick, but this has been discussed a million times, its not a new perspective.

[BBallZen83]

i dont know why op tried to make it sound so complicated, citing aristotle and shit, it comes down to kobe shoots too much and lebron is too passive.

dont mean to be a dick, but this has been discussed a million times, its not a new perspective.
Your right, the issue has been discussed to death. I just haven't really seen it discussed from a standpoint of who is the man with the better character? How do you define that character trait?

[Pointguard]

When it comes to the beat to death issue of Lebron vs. Kobe, I thought it would be interesting to look at it from an ethics point of view, and furthermore from an examination of character/virtue.
When it comes to ethics, I tend to steer clear of the extremes of the deontologists and utilitarians. I instead prefer Aristotelean thought. Aristotle specifically discuss the ideas of virtue, and what it is to be of virtuous character. According to Aristotle, virtue is a mean between excess and deficiency. For example, the virtue of courage with timidity being it's deficiency and brashness being it's excess.
I think the virtue of courage is the fundamental issue that lots of people debate the kobe vs. lebron dilemma over. For example, Lebron dissappears in 4th quarters, doesn't have the balls to make clutch shots, has shrunk in big moments, etc.... On the other side, Kobe's shot selection is poor, his shooting can border on the verge of petulant, he doesn't get team mates involved as much as he should, etc.... You know both arguments ad infinitum. The point is both sides have a point. I think there have been moments where Lebron has withered under the spotlight, and there are many instances of where Kobe has just plain shot too much and taken poor selection of shots.
So i guess you could say Kobe has bordered on brashness, and Lebron on timidity, neither of which is of a good virtuous character of courage. Courage to know when to take the shot, and when to pass. When to be the hero and when to defer. I personally think Lebron is more centered to the middle than Kobe, and he is gaining confidence every year(especially with the championship last year).

What are your thoughts from this perspective ISH?

Why do you have the wicked witch as your avatar and go around asking questions about virtues and ethics? I could see if you were the good witch? but you tha wicked one. Since this question was about courage, care to tell us where the Scrarecrow is? Your state is arKANSAS?

I don't get the feeling that you are being forthright.

[Scholar]

"Hey, guys! Look at me! I learned some new words today and I have to make a thread using them!!!"

April 2013 :facepalm

[Quintilianus]

Kobe is easily a better character.
Just look at what happened at Sprite talent game, I believe nobody here has posted this, because I haven't seen any threads about it.
Both Kobe and LeBron had they're teenager teams with talents from around the world, both were supposed to be coaches. Kobe gived many advices to his players and actually drawed up some plays and gaved them a great experience, while LeBron was acting incredibly cocky, didn't even sit with his team, sat on scorer's table, didn't talk to the players and left before the game ended. Some other player was then put in his place, but he didn't do shit either.
Ironically, LeBron's team won by I believe 2 points, but obviously, Kobe's guys had a much more fun time

[BBallZen83]

Why do you have the wicked witch as your avatar and go around asking questions about virtues and ethics? I could see if you were the good witch? but you tha wicked one. Since this question was about courage, care to tell us where the Scrarecrow is? Your state is arKANSAS?

I don't get the feeling that you are being forthright.
You got me! My real location is the Land of Oz. I'll say hi to the scarecrow for ya. The lion and I are working on getting his courage up in the mean time.

[BBallZen83]

"Hey, guys! Look at me! I learned some new words today and I have to make a thread using them!!!"

April 2013 :facepalm
So my join date is supposed to be infered as an insult to me? By the way, your name is Scholar. You should enjoy some scholarly discussions with new and exciting words! :rockon:

[BBallZen83]

Hey point guard. My avatar is actually a painting by Heironymous Bosch (No relation to Chris Bosh). He is one of my favs.

[LikeABosh]

Rape

[BBallZen83]

Rape
dammit... I should have narrowed my ethical inquiry to a strictly on court basis.

[Psycho]

dammit... I should have narrowed my ethical inquiry to a strictly on court basis.

But Kobe rapes on the court too.

[TheReal Kendall]

Meh :confusedshrug:

[daj0264]

Rape vs abandoning your team is very close in my opinion.

[RobertdeMeijer]

I believe the value of this thread is that definitions are highlighted, letting us dissect them thoroughly.

Speaking of courage, how extreme would one consider LeBron's decision to team up with other stars instead of staying in Cleveland? Kobe's way of treating Shaq is the polar opposite and it cost him dearly.

Also, I find it compassionate of LeBron to play for less in Miami, which I find an excellent virtue.

[Leftimage]

I've been a Lebron fan since he was in junior high.

I had always hoped he'd turn out ok, morally speaking.I wanted to buy into the notion that a 15 year old from the hood could ''remain hungry'' in the face of inter-generational wealth, not fall into drugs, not become an asshole , etc etc.

I was confident he'd turn out alright, but I wasn't expecting him to become the stand-up guy he is today. Just looking at the facts:

-Had kids really young with high school sweetheart : became great dad and loving husband. (soon)

- Signed a 90 million$ nike contract at 18 : Has managed his money and empire exceptionally well. No gambling, no shady loan issues. Gives a lot to charity; doesn't seem all that into money or greedy.

- Went straight from high school into a professional sports league: no scandals, no drug allegations, no national enquirer, improves every year, works his ass off despite being the best.

And then we have Lebron's various shenanigans with fans and teammates, all of which reveal a guy who's brotherly, fun-loving, friendly, spontaneous and kind. Comes off as one of the most down-to-earth guys in the league...

I mean, his track record is damn near perfect. ''the decision'' is not the kind of event (marketing hijinx) that I would judge a person's character on. That stuff is just part of the media circus.

Being said, Kobe is a peaceful, family-oriented guy with one of the more fascinating personalities in NBA history. He seems to me like a socially sharp, candid person but decidedly a loner. That's a very interesting combination- which I think is reflected in his style of play. (likewise for Lebron)

Bottom line, both these guys are great role models on the court (careers) and off.(lifestyle)...quite a step above their predecessors.(cough cough Jordan)

[selrahc]

kobes flaws on the court come as a result of wanting to be the best and to win every game. lebrons flaws on the court come as a result of caring too much of what other people think and being afraid of failure.

i think we know what the answer here is.

[diamenz]

kobes flaws on the court come as a result of wanting to be the best and to win every game. lebrons flaws on the court come as a result of caring too much of what other people think and being afraid of failure.

i think we know what the answer here is.

ya i mean all we have to do is look at your avatar and give you no credibility.

[Pointguard]

Hey point guard. My avatar is actually a painting by Heironymous Bosch (No relation to Chris Bosh). He is one of my favs.
Welcome aboard. Art and a high vocabulary are a pleasant change here.

[Pointguard]

I've been a Lebron fan since he was in junior high.

I had always hoped he'd turn out ok, morally speaking.I wanted to buy into the notion that a 15 year old from the hood could ''remain hungry'' in the face of inter-generational wealth, not fall into drugs, not become an asshole , etc etc.

I was confident he'd turn out alright, but I wasn't expecting him to become the stand-up guy he is today. Just looking at the facts:

-Had kids really young with high school sweetheart : became great dad and loving husband. (soon)

- Signed a 90 million$ nike contract at 18 : Has managed his money and empire exceptionally well. No gambling, no shady loan issues. Gives a lot to charity; doesn't seem all that into money or greedy.

- Went straight from high school into a professional sports league: no scandals, no drug allegations, no national enquirer, improves every year, works his ass off despite being the best.

And then we have Lebron's various shenanigans with fans and teammates, all of which reveal a guy who's brotherly, fun-loving, friendly, spontaneous and kind. Comes off as one of the most down-to-earth guys in the league...

I mean, his track record is damn near perfect. ''the decision'' is not the kind of event (marketing hijinx) that I would judge a person's character on. That stuff is just part of the media circus.

Being said, Kobe is a peaceful, family-oriented guy with one of the more fascinating personalities in NBA history. He seems to me like a socially sharp, candid person but decidedly a loner. That's a very interesting combination- which I think is reflected in his style of play. (likewise for Lebron)

Bottom line, both these guys are great role models on the court (careers) and off.(lifestyle)...quite a step above their predecessors.(cough cough Jordan)

Good post!

[Beastmode88]

I've been a Lebron fan since he was in junior high.

I had always hoped he'd turn out ok, morally speaking.I wanted to buy into the notion that a 15 year old from the hood could ''remain hungry'' in the face of inter-generational wealth, not fall into drugs, not become an asshole , etc etc.

I was confident he'd turn out alright, but I wasn't expecting him to become the stand-up guy he is today. Just looking at the facts:

-Had kids really young with high school sweetheart : became great dad and loving husband. (soon)

- Signed a 90 million$ nike contract at 18 : Has managed his money and empire exceptionally well. No gambling, no shady loan issues. Gives a lot to charity; doesn't seem all that into money or greedy.

- Went straight from high school into a professional sports league: no scandals, no drug allegations, no national enquirer, improves every year, works his ass off despite being the best.

And then we have Lebron's various shenanigans with fans and teammates, all of which reveal a guy who's brotherly, fun-loving, friendly, spontaneous and kind. Comes off as one of the most down-to-earth guys in the league...

I mean, his track record is damn near perfect. ''the decision'' is not the kind of event (marketing hijinx) that I would judge a person's character on. That stuff is just part of the media circus.

Being said, Kobe is a peaceful, family-oriented guy with one of the more fascinating personalities in NBA history. He seems to me like a socially sharp, candid person but decidedly a loner. That's a very interesting combination- which I think is reflected in his style of play. (likewise for Lebron)

Bottom line, both these guys are great role models on the court (careers) and off.(lifestyle)...quite a step above their predecessors.(cough cough Jordan)

Nailed it.

[BBallZen83]

Welcome aboard. Art and a high vocabulary are a pleasant change here.
Hey thanks! Appreciate the love, and good to be aboard.

[pauk]

For example, Lebron dissappears in 4th quarters, doesn't have the balls to make clutch shots

Im not sure you could call somebody....

*who has made 18 gamewinning shots for his career in only 8-9 years, which is only behind Reggie Miller (21), Kobe Bryant (27), Michael Jordan (30) for most in NBA history

*who has just hit 3 gamewinning shots this season (more than anybody) and 1 gametying shot

*who leads the league in overall 4th quarter/clutch stats productions.

Lebron might have underperformed in clutch in a certain 2011 playoff series.... but what you say is completely untrue overall...

[Element]

LeBron isn't an asshole? Lol don't let the PR fool you

I'd say every superstar but Timmy and D-V.agina is an asshole

[theBIGjabroni]

lefagggot throws clothes at white kids faces

[theBIGjabroni]

I've been a Lebron fan since he was in junior high.

I had always hoped he'd turn out ok, morally speaking.I wanted to buy into the notion that a 15 year old from the hood could ''remain hungry'' in the face of inter-generational wealth, not fall into drugs, not become an asshole , etc etc.

I was confident he'd turn out alright, but I wasn't expecting him to become the stand-up guy he is today. Just looking at the facts:

-Had kids really young with high school sweetheart : became great dad and loving husband. (soon)

- Signed a 90 million$ nike contract at 18 : Has managed his money and empire exceptionally well. No gambling, no shady loan issues. Gives a lot to charity; doesn't seem all that into money or greedy.

- Went straight from high school into a professional sports league: no scandals, no drug allegations, no national enquirer, improves every year, works his ass off despite being the best.

And then we have Lebron's various shenanigans with fans and teammates, all of which reveal a guy who's brotherly, fun-loving, friendly, spontaneous and kind. Comes off as one of the most down-to-earth guys in the league...

I mean, his track record is damn near perfect. ''the decision'' is not the kind of event (marketing hijinx) that I would judge a person's character on. That stuff is just part of the media circus.

Being said, Kobe is a peaceful, family-oriented guy with one of the more fascinating personalities in NBA history. He seems to me like a socially sharp, candid person but decidedly a loner. That's a very interesting combination- which I think is reflected in his style of play. (likewise for Lebron)

Bottom line, both these guys are great role models on the court (careers) and off.(lifestyle)...quite a step above their predecessors.(cough cough Jordan)
sad ****en loser. get your own life fagggot

[Myth]

I think rape is unethical.

I figured it was going to be a debate about rape + dick to teammates versus quits on team + referred to self in 3rd person + Check my $tats shirt.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe is easily a better character.
Just look at what happened at Sprite talent game, I believe nobody here has posted this, because I haven't seen any threads about it.
Both Kobe and LeBron had they're teenager teams with talents from around the world, both were supposed to be coaches. Kobe gived many advices to his players and actually drawed up some plays and gaved them a great experience, while LeBron was acting incredibly cocky, didn't even sit with his team, sat on scorer's table, didn't talk to the players and left before the game ended. Some other player was then put in his place, but he didn't do shit either.
Ironically, LeBron's team won by I believe 2 points, but obviously, Kobe's guys had a much more fun time


Blame Coachbe:eek:

[ThaRegul8r]

When it comes to the beat to death issue of Lebron vs. Kobe, I thought it would be interesting to look at it from an ethics point of view, and furthermore from an examination of character/virtue.
When it comes to ethics, I tend to steer clear of the extremes of the deontologists and utilitarians. I instead prefer Aristotelean thought. Aristotle specifically discuss the ideas of virtue, and what it is to be of virtuous character. According to Aristotle, virtue is a mean between excess and deficiency. For example, the virtue of courage with timidity being it's deficiency and brashness being it's excess.

On an aside, I'm actually a virtue ethicist myself. I also prefer it to deontology and utilitarianism, as I prefer agent- rather than act-centered ethics. But as this is a basketball forum and not a philosophy forum, I won't go any more into it than that, as this is not the place.

[ThaRegul8r]

Im not sure you could call somebody....

*who has made 18 gamewinning shots for his career in only 8-9 years, which is only behind Reggie Miller (21), Kobe Bryant (27), Michael Jordan (30) for most in NBA history

I'm curious as to where you got the numbers. I, too, have those players as the top 3, but, if you're going by 82games.com's definition, I have Miller with 22. I've looked to see if anyone had a number for Miller, but after being unable to find one, I conducted the research myself.

[Leftimage]

sad ****en loser. get your own life fagggot

http://i.imgur.com/H9qoJvN.gif

[BBallZen83]

Im not sure you could call somebody....

*who has made 18 gamewinning shots for his career in only 8-9 years, which is only behind Reggie Miller (21), Kobe Bryant (27), Michael Jordan (30) for most in NBA history

*who has just hit 3 gamewinning shots this season (more than anybody) and 1 gametying shot

*who leads the league in overall 4th quarter/clutch stats productions.

Lebron might have underperformed in clutch in a certain 2011 playoff series.... but what you say is completely untrue overall...
I'm not saying I think he is overall an unclutch player. I just think people point to 2011 a lot and the year before against boston. Both of which I think are overall, high profile obvious points. He however has performed great in the clutch on many occasions, and of course who can forget detriot back in 07 or Boston last year. I'm only acknowledging the argument that people make and saying I see there point. I do however think he continues to grow every year.

[DMAVS41]

April 2013

[BBallZen83]

On an aside, I'm actually a virtue ethicist myself. I also prefer it to deontology and utilitarianism, as I prefer agent- rather than act-centered ethics. But as this is a basketball forum and not a philosophy forum, I won't go any more into it than that, as this is not the place.
I agree completely. Utilitarians being concerned with the outcomes of acts, and deontologists with the intentions of the act. After studying both, I think they both lead to logical extremes I can't agree with. So to me, aristotle had it right all along over 2500 years ago. Anyways I'm not an actual ethicist, just taken some courses and read some books. I'm actually studying engineering by trade. Got into an argument in another thread with some one about probability theory over some statistical data. I digress too much...

[BBallZen83]

April 2013
Nov 2010

[NBAller]

I'm way too book stupid to be apart of this conversation. Lebron>kobe in basketball. that's all i got.

[ripthekik]

Im not sure you could call somebody....

*who has made 18 gamewinning shots for his career in only 8-9 years, which is only behind Reggie Miller (21), Kobe Bryant (27), Michael Jordan (30) for most in NBA history

*who has just hit 3 gamewinning shots this season (more than anybody) and 1 gametying shot

*who leads the league in overall 4th quarter/clutch stats productions.

Lebron might have underperformed in clutch in a certain 2011 playoff series.... but what you say is completely untrue overall...
lol.. why don't you also tell us that Lebron has missed the most shots under the clutch this season too? He missed like 8 shots.. he only got so many made shots because he got a lot of attempts.. and yet he failed :oldlol:

joe johnson is 7/8 this year.. even ray has like 3 or 4.. lebron has a few, but he also has the most misses in the whole league.

Clutch?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Quintilianus]

Im not sure you could call somebody....

*who has made 18 gamewinning shots for his career in only 8-9 years, which is only behind Reggie Miller (21), Kobe Bryant (27), Michael Jordan (30) for most in NBA history

*who has just hit 3 gamewinning shots this season (more than anybody) and 1 gametying shot

*who leads the league in overall 4th quarter/clutch stats productions.

Lebron might have underperformed in clutch in a certain 2011 playoff series.... but what you say is completely untrue overall...
Why are you trying to change history? Kobe has more gamewinners then MJ.