Who could average 50 pts/g (efficiently) if their team allowed and needed it?

[Living Being]

Who could do it, and how would they hold up over the course of the season?

[Electric Slide]

Lebron could, but he would have Kobe's efficiency which is just average.

[Levity]

due to the sole fact that you put "efficiently" in the title, i would have to say no one. If a team "needed" someone to score 50 pts a game, then that would mean its a team full of keith bogans and reggie evans type players. In other words, a team without any scoring output. So this 50 ppg player would get double and trippled team all game. Sure, theres a slim possibility they could reach the 50 ppg mark (highly doubt it) but it wouldnt be at an efficient rate.

[Beastmode88]

Westbrook probably could do it. He already takes like 20 shots per game. Why not take 40? :confusedshrug:

[Asukal]

No one today can average 50 a game, even prime Jordan wouldn't be able to without chucking like an idiot.

[keepinitreal]

Who could do it, and how would they hold up over the course of the season?

At 50 points/game you'll have to be chucking quite a bit. Nobody is going to do that and no teams need that. If you take into consideration the amount of energy it takes to score points and the drop-off in efficiency, Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant are good candidates.

[macmac]

Lol efficiently or not, no one can do it, what kind of stupid shit is this?

Averaging 50 a game? Did your mother sit on your head while you were an infant?

[Ronaldinho]

Lebron could, but he would have Kobe's efficiency which is just average.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Lebron couldnt even with low efficiency

9 50 points game :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

The list of players who "can" average 50 a game efficiently if they needed too begins with Wilt Chamberlain and ends with Wilt Chamberlain. If another player could even come close to that they'd have already done it by now. The mid 30's per game seems to be the realistic limits for most of NBA history's gifted scorers and even then, few have ever maintained those kinds of volumes with efficiency

[Gotterdammerung]

The list of players who "can" average 50 a game efficiently if they needed too begins with Wilt Chamberlain and ends with Wilt Chamberlain. If another player could even come close to that they'd have already done it by now. The mid 30's per game seems to be the realistic limits for most of NBA history's gifted scorers and even then, few have ever maintained those kinds of volumes with efficiency

This. :kobe:
/end thread

[HomieWeMajor]

Steph Curry
Let him chuck 3s every possession

[ThaRegul8r]

Why on earth would any team "need" one player to average 50 points a game?

:confusedshrug:

That would only benefit "fans" of certain players and fantasy basketball participants. No team with one player averaging 50 points would win anything. And what team nowadays would be happy with one player taking the amount of shots that would be necessary for a 50-point average?

[daj0264]

Wilt, Kareem and Jordan could if they were allowed to shoot very often.

[inclinerator]

Steph Curry
Let him chuck 3s every possession
i dont think so, seems like he would tire out

[Psileas]

The list of players who "can" average 50 a game efficiently if they needed too begins with Wilt Chamberlain and ends with Wilt Chamberlain. If another player could even come close to that they'd have already done it by now. The mid 30's per game seems to be the realistic limits for most of NBA history's gifted scorers and even then, few have ever maintained those kinds of volumes with efficiency

About this, although I'll say early 70's Kareem would be probably decent taking a ton of shots. Look at it this way: In 1972, Kareem averaged 40 ppg against Wilt, not because Wilt was a bad defender, but because Kareem was determined to be playing his best against him, which sometimes seemed to mean in his mind (not always correctly) that he had to be taking lots of shots. If Kareem was able to take 30 fga against one of the game's elite defenders (who frequently tried to deny him the ball) and average 40 ppg, I'll say he'd be able to take even more shots and average more than 40 ppg against the rest of the league (and on better %'s than the 45% he shot against Wilt) if he wanted to.

As an aside though, Kareem liked to conserve energy a little too often, so this isn't a plausible scenario, anyway. Some in the early 70's were expecting him to be the next 100-point scorer, and he never cared to even get 60 in a game, although he definitely could.

[Psileas]

Correction: Kareem actually averaged 34.4 shots per game against Wilt in 1972 and shot 50%. Which only enhances my initial point.

[Element]

The list of players who "can" average 50 a game efficiently if they needed too begins with Wilt Chamberlain and ends with Wilt Chamberlain. If another player could even come close to that they'd have already done it by now. The mid 30's per game seems to be the realistic limits for most of NBA history's gifted scorers and even then, few have ever maintained those kinds of volumes with efficiency

Nope it starts with No and ends with One, in today's league that is. No one cares about how Wilt could score 50ppg when teams with far far far inferior offenses were scoring 120 a game on a ridiculous pace at that. Wilt would probably peak at around 30-35ppg today, which is still amazing.

Pace-adjusted, MJ and Kobe have the two most impressive scoring seasons in terms of volume. T-Mac is close, AI lacked the relative efficiency to be included.

[Carbine]

If you gave an elite scorer in the league the green light to shoot whenever and however they wanted....and gave no effort on defense.... and said player shot the ball 55 times a game, they could do it. Most certainly.

Simple math - the more you shoot, the more you score

It would be to the detriment of the team, obviously, for a player to average 50 points per game. So it will never happen in modern basketball, but if it was a goal for people in charge and had an elite scorer at their disposal.....it would be done.

[Collie]

It's not just about scoring ability, but endurance as well. To average 50 ppg, you most likely have to heave around 35-45 shots per game.

[CavaliersFTW]

About this, although I'll say early 70's Kareem would be probably decent taking a ton of shots. Look at it this way: In 1972, Kareem averaged 40 ppg against Wilt, not because Wilt was a bad defender, but because Kareem was determined to be playing his best against him, which sometimes seemed to mean in his mind (not always correctly) that he had to be taking lots of shots. If Kareem was able to take 30 fga against one of the game's elite defenders (who frequently tried to deny him the ball) and average 40 ppg, I'll say he'd be able to take even more shots and average more than 40 ppg against the rest of the league (and on better %'s than the 45% he shot against Wilt) if he wanted to.

As an aside though, Kareem liked to conserve energy a little too often, so this isn't a plausible scenario, anyway. Some in the early 70's were expecting him to be the next 100-point scorer, and he never cared to even get 60 in a game, although he definitely could.
I honestly don't believe his endurance is sufficient to average 50 points per game for a full season - I think he has every necessary tool except endurance but endurance is huge. Reading through newspaper recaps, sports articles, and hearing interviews about both Wilt's 50ppg season and Kareems early Bucks years (plus I've now got a few full games with announcers discussing Kareem's "lack" of stamina) I've come to the conclusion that Wilt's indefatigable endurance was a key factor to his 50ppg season and Kareem's one "weakness" if you will, happens to be a lack of floor stamina in comparison to Wilt. Willis Reed said Wilt would run you all game long in the first half, chug a bottle of 7 up at half time and run you to the ground throughout the 2nd half, and seemed like he could do it all over again if he needed too, where as Kareem would run out of gas during games. Not important in the long haul of their career accolades, but important if we're speculating whether Kareem could duplicate Wilt's 50ppg. Wilt played every minute of every game that season because he was asked too because the coach knew he could, and I think those minutes were necessary for him to score 50. I think the same would be true for Kareem, but I just can't see him doing those minutes with what has been said about his stamina.

[LAZERUSS]

A prime Kareem, which in my opinion was very early in his career, had a five game stretch against Wilt, in which he averaged 40 ppg on 50% shooting. One of those games was a blowout loss in which he scored 50 on 22-39 shooting (and was outrebounded 25-8.) And in the process, KAJ's Bucks went 1-4 against Wilt's Lakers.

That was the only real stretch in his 28 h2h's in which he shot at 50% against Wilt, and only the season before, in 10 h2h's, which included five regular season battles, and then five more in the WCF's, Wilt basically matched Kareem point-for-point, while outrebounding and outshooting him (in fact, in the five regular season contests, Kareem shot .438 to go along with .481 in the WCF's.)

Back to that 71-72 season. He then had a six game stretch in the WCF's, in which he averaged 33 FGAs per game, and shot .457 against Wilt...which included shooting .414 over the course of the last four games of that series.

And speaking of stamina, in the last game of that series, Chamberlain completely took over the game in the 4th period, and engineered a double-digit comeback win, while punishing Kareem physically at both ends of the floor...and outrunning him, as well. This from a nearly 36 year old Wilt, and against a 25 year old Kareem, who had averaged a career high 44 mpg during the season.

BTW, in Wilt's last season, in 72-73, he faced Kareem in six regular season games, and while Kareem outscored Chamberlain, per game, 29-11, Wilt outshot Kareem from the field by a .737 to .450 margin..which included one game in Chamberlain outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

But for those that would believe that Kareem could sustain a 40+ ppg season, one only has to look at his 71-72 season, and then his 75-76 season. Once again, in KAJ's 71-72 season, he averaged 44 mpg, scored 34.8 ppg, shot .574 from the field, grabbed 16.6 rpg, and handed out 4.6 apg...all while playing for a Bucks team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. And, then, against Thurmond and Wilt in the playoffs, he collectively shot .437 from the field.

Then, take a look at his 75-76 season. Kareem was traded to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before. If KAJ were ever going to score 40 ppg, this would have been the season to do it. Instead, he played 41 mpg, and his scoring dropped dramatically down to 27.7 ppg, and on only .529 shooting.

Personally, I believe Kareem began a slide after his 70-71 season, in which he led the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg, and on .577 shooting, to go along with 16 rpg in a season in which he "only" played 40 mpg. This was his second season, and already he led his team to a dominating 66-16 regular season, and then a 12-2 post-season in which his Bucks were never challenged. By most accounts, he was expected to dominate the NBA like no one ever had, and his young Bucks (with the exception of an aging Oscar) would challenge the Celtic dynasty from just the decade before.

After his Bucks were eliminated by an aged Laker team in the '72 WCF's (and after Nate had outscored and outshot him in the previous playoff round), I believe Kareem never really recovered.

The rest of the decade, while he was winning multiple MVPs (at least one undeserved in '76), his team's, some loaded with talent, all under-achieved. He could still put up single games, or even series, of brilliance, particularly against the best centers in the league, but his drive waned. And while he was the best player for much of the decade, by the mid-70's, players like Lanier, McAdoo, and a little later, Walton, were winning their share of their h2h matchups.

And by the late 70's, a young Moses emerged as the most dominant player in the league, and he absolutely owned KAJ in their 40 h2h's.

However, the arrival of Magic re-energized Kareem, and he was still a skilled enough player, that while his physical talent eroded, he was still able to score 25+ ppg on a regular basis...and again, when challenged, he could throw up a huge game, as he did on a regular basis against a young Hakeem in the '84-85 and '85-86 seasons. And a motivated KAJ, after an awful first game in the '85 Finals, completely took over the series, and dominated the HOF Celtic frontline, en route to winning the FMVP.

The problem was, Kareem just never had the motivation for an extended length of time. Much of his career was filled with under-achievement. And had Magic not burst onto the scene in '80, I suspect that Kareem would have retired in the mid-80's, with only one ring, and would have been largely viewed as an overall failure...especially after his dominance so early in his career.

[SyRyanYang]

A prime Kareem, which in my opinion was very early in his career, had a five game stretch against Wilt, in which he averaged 40 ppg on 50% shooting. One of those games was a blowout loss in which he scored 50 on 22-39 shooting (and was outrebounded 25-8.) And in the process, KAJ's Bucks went 1-4 against Wilt's Lakers.

That was the only real stretch in his 28 h2h's in which he shot at 50% against Wilt, and only the season before, in 10 h2h's, which included five regular season battles, and then five more in the WCF's, Wilt basically matched Kareem point-for-point, while outrebounding and outshooting him (in fact, in the five regular season contests, Kareem shot .438 to go along with .481 in the WCF's.)

Back to that 71-72 season. He then had a six game stretch in the WCF's, in which he averaged 33 FGAs per game, and shot .457 against Wilt...which included shooting .414 over the course of the last four games of that series.

And speaking of stamina, in the last game of that series, Chamberlain completely took over the game in the 4th period, and engineered a double-digit comeback win, while punishing Kareem physically at both ends of the floor...and outrunning him, as well. This from a nearly 36 year old Wilt, and against a 25 year old Kareem, who had averaged a career high 44 mpg during the season.

BTW, in Wilt's last season, in 72-73, he faced Kareem in six regular season games, and while Kareem outscored Chamberlain, per game, 29-11, Wilt outshot Kareem from the field by a .737 to .450 margin..which included one game in Chamberlain outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

But for those that would believe that Kareem could sustain a 40+ ppg season, one only has to look at his 71-72 season, and then his 75-76 season. Once again, in KAJ's 71-72 season, he averaged 44 mpg, scored 34.8 ppg, shot .574 from the field, grabbed 16.6 rpg, and handed out 4.6 apg...all while playing for a Bucks team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. And, then, against Thurmond and Wilt in the playoffs, he collectively shot .437 from the field.

Then, take a look at his 75-76 season. Kareem was traded to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before. If KAJ were ever going to score 40 ppg, this would have been the season to do it. Instead, he played 41 mpg, and his scoring dropped dramatically down to 27.7 ppg, and on only .529 shooting.

Personally, I believe Kareem began a slide after his 70-71 season, in which he led the NBA in scoring at 31.7 ppg, and on .577 shooting, to go along with 16 rpg in a season in which he "only" played 40 mpg. This was his second season, and already he led his team to a dominating 66-16 regular season, and then a 12-2 post-season in which his Bucks were never challenged. By most accounts, he was expected to dominate the NBA like no one ever had, and his young Bucks (with the exception of an aging Oscar) would challenge the Celtic dynasty from just the decade before.

After his Bucks were eliminated by an aged Laker team in the '72 WCF's (and after Nate had outscored and outshot him in the previous playoff round), I believe Kareem never really recovered.

The rest of the decade, while he was winning multiple MVPs (at least one undeserved in '76), his team's, some loaded with talent, all under-achieved. He could still put up single games, or even series, of brilliance, particularly against the best centers in the league, but his drive waned. And while he was the best player for much of the decade, by the mid-70's, players like Lanier, McAdoo, and a little later, Walton, were winning their share of their h2h matchups.

And by the late 70's, a young Moses emerged as the most dominant player in the league, and he absolutely owned KAJ in their 40 h2h's.

However, the arrival of Magic re-energized Kareem, and he was still a skilled enough player, that while his physical talent eroded, he was still able to score 25+ ppg on a regular basis...and again, when challenged, he could throw up a huge game, as he did on a regular basis against a young Hakeem in the '84-85 and '85-86 seasons. And a motivated KAJ, after an awful first game in the '85 Finals, completely took over the series, and dominated the HOF Celtic frontline, en route to winning the FMVP.

The problem was, Kareem just never had the motivation for an extended length of time. Much of his career was filled with under-achievement. And had Magic not burst onto the scene in '80, I suspect that Kareem would have retired in the mid-80's, with only one ring, and would have been largely viewed as an overall failure...especially after his dominance so early in his career.

Welcome Back:applause:

[LAZERUSS]

And for those that might consider Wilt as "selfish" in his 61-62 season, it was his coach's decision to have Chamberlain take 40 shots per game. Why? Because the core of this Warrior team was largely made up from the roster that Wilt had inherited in his rookie season, and which had been in last place just the year before...except they were older, and played worse.

The result? Chamberlain basically single-handedly carried that team to a 49-31 record, and then in the playoffs, while his surrounding roster just puked all over themselves, Wilt got them thru the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, controversial two point loss against Russell's 60-20 Celtics.

[LAZERUSS]

And we have seen what the two other greatest scorers in the history of the NBA were capable of. MJ, playing alongside a poor supporting cast in 86-87, averaged 37.1 ppg, while Kobe, with a putrid roster in '06, averaged 35.4 ppg.

Both of them had the "green light" all season long in those years, and never came close to even 40 ppg, much less 50.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, and as most here are aware, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 mpg in his 61-62 season. In a season in which he played a ton of back-to-back games, and which included several separate stretches of 3-4-and even-5 games in a row.

For those that would suggest "player-A" could average 50 ppg, give me an example of one other player who accomplished what Chamberlain did in that '62 season. The only player who challenged those numbers, ...was Wilt, himself.

At MJ's peak, he averaged 40 mpg. Kobe was at 41.5 mpg. Shaq had one season of 40 mpg, as did Hakeem. And while I'm sure that all of them were capable of more mpg, does anyone in their right mind believe that they could sustain the same efficiency playing 48 mpg, instead of 40? Night-after-night? Much less in a condensed schedule that Wilt had in '62?

[LAZERUSS]

Nope it starts with No and ends with One, in today's league that is. No one cares about how Wilt could score 50ppg when teams with far far far inferior offenses were scoring 120 a game on a ridiculous pace at that. Wilt would probably peak at around 30-35ppg today, which is still amazing.

Pace-adjusted, MJ and Kobe have the two most impressive scoring seasons in terms of volume. T-Mac is close, AI lacked the relative efficiency to be included.

Pace-adjusted, and adjusting FG%'s for era's, and Wilt's '62 season ranks a close second behind Kobe's 06 season. Wilt's averages come out to 33.8 ppg, on .582 shooting, in 40 mpg, while Kobe would have been at 34.5 ppg on .450 shooting in 40 mpg.

Of course, and as most here know by now, Wilt was the only player in NBA history that could play all 48 mpg over the course of an entire season. We simply don't know if players like MJ or Kobe could sustain their play for 48 mpg over the course of an 82 game schedule, but we do know that Chamberlain could.

And logically, simply reducing Chamberlain's numbers down to Kobe's '06, in raw terms, is not fair to Wilt. His numbers were posted while playing at 48.5 mpg. The logical conclusion would have to be that, if Wilt were to "only" play 40 mpg, and over the course of 82 games, that his efficiencies would likely rise (e.g., his FG% would have been somewhat higher...which would have led to more ppg.)

Nor do I believe that Wilt would "only" play 40 mpg in today's NBA, either. Wilt's career low, in terms of mpg, was 42.3 mpg (achieved in a season in which his Lakers went 69-13 and had a +12.3 ppg differential.) In his last season, at age 36, he averaged 43.2 mpg. And in his career, he was at 45.8 mpg. Furthermore, in his 160 post-season games, he averaged 47.2 mpg (and in his last season, covering 17 playoff games, he averaged 47.1 mpg.) He led the league numerous times, and in some by wide margins, too. And given the fact that in the last 10-15 years, there have been seasons in which the league leader was playing 42-43 mpg, I suspect that a prime Wilt would easily lead the league in mpg in today's NBA.

So, even in Kobe's 06 season, in which he averaged 41 mpg, Allen Iverson led the league at 43.1 mpg. The logical conclusion would be that a '62 Wilt would have played at least 43 mpg in '06 (and once again, considering that this would have been a reduction, his efficiency likely would have risen somewhat to offset the drop in his stats.)

[deja vu]

A player like that would have to average 35-40 FG attempts and 10-15 FT attempts per game. He would have to attempt 50 shots one game and 30 shots the next, and so on. And he would have to make a decent amount of them to make the defense pay. That would be extremely tiring for one player especially when playing 3-5 games per week. If NBA games are held just once a week then it would be more realistic.

[Eric Cartman]

Welcome Back:applause:
I shed a tear when i realized it was the reincarnation of the Great One. Bow down. :bowdown:

[PotOdds]

Here's another thought, which NBA player could beat Kobe's 81 pt in a game? I think it's pretty clear there is only one player, LeBron.

With his super efficiency, ability to hit the 3s, ability to post-up, all his teammates have to do is keep feeding him all night long. Obviously it wouldn't be easy and he needs to be on, but definitely do-able.

[LAZERUSS]

Here's another thought, which NBA player could beat Kobe's 81 pt in a game? I think it's pretty clear there is only one player, LeBron.

With his super efficiency, ability to hit the 3s, ability to post-up, all his teammates have to do is keep feeding him all night long. Obviously it wouldn't be easy and he needs to be on, but definitely do-able.

Just curious...what is LeBron's career high?

[PotOdds]

56. He was 20yo. 18 of 36 fgs. 6 of 12 3s. 14 of 15 fts. Did it against Bosh and the Raptors. But we all know he's better now.


Just curious...what is LeBron's career high?

[SacJB Shady]

Steph Curry. Even if his 3 point percentage fell from 45 to 35 percent, he would just need to go 15/42 a game. His field goal percentage would still be the equivalent of 50 percent.

[LAZERUSS]

56. He was 20yo. 18 of 36 fgs. 6 of 12 3s. 14 of 15 fts. Did it against Bosh and the Raptors. But we all know he's better now.

Agree that LeBron is a considerably better player today, but one reason is that he is more selective in his shooting.

Interesting, too, that a prime Kobe shelled that same Raptors team for 81 points the very next season.

The point being, that even scoring 60 is a rarity. Robinson's 71 came in a meaningless game, and against a team that had no interest in even being on the floor. Bird's 60 came in a game in which the opposing players were cheering him on. Shaq's 61 came against the lowly Clippers in a blowout win, in a game in which he played 45 minutes, and was "guarded" for nearly half of it by a 6-7 bench player.

You could argue that Chamberlain's 100 point game was also a circus, but at least to the Knick's credit, they did everything they could to keep him from hitting the century mark.

Furthermore, Chamberlain had six 70+ point games in his career, including one against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, in which he outscored Belamy 73-35, while grabbing 36 rebounds, and shooting 29-48 from the field. Imagine scoring 35 points in a game, and being outscored by the opposing player by 38 points?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kevin Durant. His shooting splits would be 48/40/89

[LAZERUSS]

Kevin Durant. His shooting splits would be 48/40/89

Here again, what is KD's career high game?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Here again, what is KD's career high game?

52. Whats your point? KD scores within the flow of the offense the purpose of the thread is if his team and him allowed it. KD is a way better scorer than Wilt who averaged 50 OKC can play at the highest pace if they want and get him way more possessions.

[SacJB Shady]

Nobody had more points in a game this year than curry

[LAZERUSS]

52. Whats your point? KD scores within the flow of the offense the purpose of the thread is if his team and him allowed it. KD is a way better scorer than Wilt who averaged 50 OKC can play at the highest pace if they want and get him way more possessions.

No question that Durant is a better overall shooter than Wilt, but better scorer? Shaq couldn't shoot from eight feet, but had seasons of nearly 30 ppg, and finals of as high as 38 ppg. And he wasn't the shooter, nor scorer, that Wilt was.

In Wilt's 68-69 season, when he hardly shot the ball, SI ran article claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Wilt caught wind of the article, and the night before it hit the newstands, he hung a 60 point game on the Royals. And a few days later he poured in 66 points, on 29-35 shooting. Over the course of 17 straight games, he averaged 31.1 ppg. And the very next season, at age 33, his new coach asked him to focus on scoring again, and he responded by leading the league over the first nine games, at 32.2 ppg, and on .579 shooting. Unfortunately, "Superman" shredded his knee, and was never quite the same after that. Still, on a knee that had had major knee surgery just four months prior, Wilt put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 FG% Finals (the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history), which included a "must-win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.

Most at the time believed that you could give Wilt a number, and he would reach it. Not sure the same can be said for KD.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Well we know that kobe couldnt do it bc hes tried to every season and hasnt been able to.

The three candidates who could come the closest given the criteria (50 pts and reasonable efficiency) would be Dirk, Durant, and Lebron. But even they couldn't do it, the primary reason that nobody could realistically do it is that as soon as a player started to string together a few 50 point games in a row, opponents would just start to sell out on denying them the ball or double teaming and forcing them to give it up soon as they get it. If the hypothetical assumes that opponents don't adjust (unrealistic) and just play traditional D each game, I could see someone going as high as 45. But again this requires that you postulate someone doing it over a random 82 game stretch in theory. In practice opponents would quickly catch on and prevent it

[Trollsmasher]

Kevin Durant. His shooting splits would be 48/40/89

Lets not act liek Durant is ever going to take more than 20 shots or take something even remotely close to a bad shot.

His overselectiveness pi**es me off.

[Scholar]

Absolutely nobody in the NBA could average 50 ppg unless their respective team only had the player play solely against scrub teams like the Bobcats, against whom even Deron Williams dropped 57 pts in 2011-12, while intentionally sitting the guy out against all other teams.

Even the worst teams in the league would adjust their defenses to deny the player the ball and/or double (even triple) team the player when needed. Odds are Kobe's 35.4 ppg from 2005-06 will be the highest mark we'll see for many years to come.

[clayton]

Durant can. 50 free throws per game. Hence the name KDwhistle.

[Scholar]

Kevin Durant. His shooting splits would be 48/40/89

Are those his free throw attempts in order to average 50 per game? Some nights he'll need a measly 40 FTAs, while other nights will require up to 89.

[KOBE143]

Today's league..

Kobe in his prime easily..

[gman]

wilt....

lebron might be able to if you put him on the bobcats, but impossible to tell. i still doubt it

[bdreason]

Nobody in the modern NBA could average 50ppg efficiently.

[Ballin095]

Nobody in the modern NBA could average 50ppg even if they tried.

Fixed

[LAZERUSS]

No one, including a prime Wilt, would average 50 ppg in today's NBA. To begin with, there are just not enough possessions. Nor would anyone, including Chamberlain, play 48 mpg over the course of the entire season. And there is absolutely zero likelihood that a GM, or coach, or even teammates, would allow such a thing to occur.

And historically, Wilt was the only one capable of 40 ppg, much less 50. Here again, MJ and Kobe had ideal situations in their highest scoring seasons, and still fell well short of even 40 ppg.

And has been pointed out earlier in this topic, what would be the purpose? Chamberlain had the "perfect storm" in '62 and even '63. Everyone in the organization, from the top-down, encouraged it. Even his teammates, at least in '62, rallied behind him.

'63 was interesting, though. To his credit, Wilt did all he could. Some have claimed that he was a stats-padder, based on the team going 31-49. But, that team, with arguably one of the worst rosters in NBA history, was in mearly every game. They only played in eight games in which the differential was 20+ points (going 4-4), and they lost 35 games by single digits. Their -2.1 ppg differential is a very telling stat. You could look at their 1-8 record against the HOF-laden Celtics, as an example. They won that one game, and in six other's, the games were close. And once again, Chamberlain gave his all. He played 47.6 mpg, and led the NBA in fifteen of their 22 major statistical categories.

However, the real issue with that season surfaced the very next season, when their new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage with the veteran roster, sans Wilt, and against a team comprised of rookies and scrubs. It was bad enough that the veterans lost, but Hannum was shocked by just how much those veteran players had forgotten about the game. They had become so dependant upon Wilt, for virtually everything, that they just became passive observers.

So, here again, what would be the purpose? Ultimately the game should be about winning. It has been proven that no one man is going to single-handedly win a title. And no team is going to benefit with one man taking nearly all the shots.

MJ was able to lead his team to championships while scoring around 32 ppg. And Kareem, Barry, and Shaq were around 30. That seems to be the cutoff point.

[Legends66NBA7]

Just curious...what is LeBron's career high?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEMtf1ppGJg

First career 50 point game too. The blow by Pape Sow made the moment to remember.

[Sakkreth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEMtf1ppGJg

First career 50 point game too. The blow by Pape Sow made the moment to remember.

Carrer highs shouldn't count if it's done against Raptors :(

[Legends66NBA7]

Interesting, too, that a prime Kobe shelled that same Raptors team for 81 points the very next season.

Allen Iverson also has 2 of his 3 50+ point games in the playoffs against the Raptors, where he had 54 and 52 respectfully. His career high is against New Orleans, 55.

Great scorers have thing for having a staple game against the Raptors. My team everyone...

[Legends66NBA7]

Carrer highs shouldn't count if it's done against Raptors :(

I remember watching that game at home too, but I was happy we won. :cheers:

So crazy that 8+ years has passed by since then.

[Iceman#44]

so for you guys who could average 40pts/g efficiently? Not 50, but 40...still something just Wilt has ever made...

[BuffaloBill]

Nobody. Shaq and Wilt maybe. Or Monta Ellis



Monta Ellis have it all

[3peated]

No one really. Shooting minimum of 25 shots a night is exhausting to anyone. They wouldn't last a season. Much less the playoffs

[Akhenaten]

Not enough possessions in the modern game
Wilt did it in league that avg 152 offensive poss per game

today's avg is just over 90 possessions


it's literally impossible

[Iceman#44]

NBA HIGHEST SCORING SEASON:



50.4 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962), 39.5 FGA on .506 FG%
44.8 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963), 34.6 FGA on .528 FG%
38.4 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961), 31.1 FGA on .509 FG%
37.6 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960), 32.1 FGA on .461 FG%
37.1 ppg - Michael Jordan (1986-1987), 27.8 FGA on .482 FG%
36.9 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964), 28.7 FGA on .524 FG%
35.6 ppg - Rick Barry (1966-1967), 28.7 FGA on .451 FG%
35.4 ppg - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006), 27.2 FGA on .450 FG%
35.0 ppg - Michael Jordan (1987-1988), 24.4 FGA on .535 FG%
34.8 ppg - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1971-1972), 24.9 FGA on .574 FG%
34.8 ppg - Elgin Baylor (1960-1961), 29.7 FGA on .430 FG%
34.7 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1964-1965), 28.5 FGA on .510 FG%
34.5 ppg - Bob McAdoo (1974-1975), 26.1 FGA on .512 FG%
34.0 ppg - Elgin Baylor (1962-1963), 28.4 FGA on .453 FG%
34.0 ppg - Tiny Archibald (1972-1973), 26.3 FGA on .488 FG%
33.6 ppg - Michael Jordan (1989-1990), 24.0 FGA on .526 FG%
33.5 ppg - Wilt Chamberlain (1965-1966), 25.2 FGA on .540 FG%
33.1 ppg - George Gervin (1979-1980), 24.9 FGA on .528 FG%
33.0 ppg - Allen Iverson (2005-2006), 25.3 FGA on .447 FG%
32.9 ppg - Bernard King (1984-1985), 23.7 FGA on .530 FG%

:kobe: :kobe:

[PotOdds]

There are 2 points to be made from this.

1. There have been MANY games where players have amassed an incredible number of points by the 3rd Q but sat the 4th Q cuz the game was a blowout. If those players had continue to play, there would be many more 60 pt games.

2. This is one of the STRONGEST cases for why Jordan was the greatest of all time. The number of 50 ppg he had in the playoffs FAR outdistances the next guy. Against a team that doesn't care, scoring 50 is much easier than doing it against playoff teams.


The point being, that even scoring 60 is a rarity. Robinson's 71 came in a meaningless game, and against a team that had no interest in even being on the floor. Bird's 60 came in a game in which the opposing players were cheering him on. Shaq's 61 came against the lowly Clippers in a blowout win, in a game in which he played 45 minutes, and was "guarded" for nearly half of it by a 6-7 bench player.

You could argue that Chamberlain's 100 point game was also a circus, but at least to the Knick's credit, they did everything they could to keep him from hitting the century mark.

[Phenith]

Nobody in the modern NBA could average 50ppg efficiently.
This

If someone did manage to avg 50ppg, they would need to get to the line like 15-20 times a game the rest of their line probably won't look very good.

[jack612blue]

To average 50 would require a strong mental barrier to overcome.

[La Frescobaldi]

Nobody in the modern NBA could average 50ppg efficiently.
This is the same kind of thing people were saying in 1959. Somebody showed up and changed their reality for them. Point? We don't know what the future holds.

But as far as your exact statement? Yeah, nobody in the league today that could do it. None of the current players are athletic enough to do it.

Just for starters nobody has the stamina to play the kind of minutes you'd have to play to get those kinds of numbers.

[kshutts1]

@Lazerus,

What's your story? You obviously have an incredible love for basketball, but are all of these essays/posts done through research or personal experience?

No matter the answer, do you work in basketball, or are you consumed by your passion/hobby? Never seen someone make such long, factual posts about players/games/stories 40+ years ago.

[CavaliersFTW]

@Lazerus,

What's your story? You obviously have an incredible love for basketball, but are all of these essays/posts done through research or personal experience?

No matter the answer, do you work in basketball, or are you consumed by your passion/hobby? Never seen someone make such long, factual posts about players/games/stories 40+ years ago.
(Lazerus = Jlauber)

literally, they are the same person

[kshutts1]

(Lazerus = Jlauber)

literally, they are the same person

I don't know who that is, either. I don't really pay attention to handles/names

[wakencdukest]

50 points per game efficiently? Throw LeBron, Kobe, Durant,etc. out the window. If it could be done, it would have to be a center. No perimeter player is efficient as a center. It's about impossible anyway.

[Akhenaten]

This is the same kind of thing people were saying in 1959. Somebody showed up and changed their reality for them. Point? We don't know what the future holds.

But as far as your exact statement? Yeah, nobody in the league today that could do it. None of the current players are athletic enough to do it.

Just for starters nobody has the stamina to play the kind of minutes you'd have to play to get those kinds of numbers.


No player from your era could do it either
the talent disparity between the best player and the worst player is FAAAR less pronounced than it was back then

playing in today's NBA is just far more taxing on the body, "everybody" is privy to the best nutrition and conditioning programs, "everybody" is athletic etc.

Wilt Chamberlain isn't avg 48 mpg in today's league, that's a joke
152 possessions per game is also a joke

[TheTenth]

No player from your era could do it either
the talent disparity between the best player and the worst player is FAAAR less pronounced than it was back then

playing in today's NBA is just far more taxing on the body, "everybody" is privy to the best nutrition and conditioning programs, "everybody" is athletic etc.

Wilt Chamberlain isn't avg 48 mpg in today's league, that's a joke
152 possessions per game is also a joke
So you agreed with a lot of what he said? Nice post.

[Living Being]

So you agreed with a lot of what he said? Nice post.
:applause: Legitimate April 2013 poster.

[TheTenth]

:applause: Legitimate April 2013 poster.
Insult, sarcasm, or praise? Lol it's hard to tell in message boards.

[Living Being]

Insult, sarcasm, or praise? Lol it's hard to tell in message boards.
I was serious. No sarcasm/insult. I know it's hard to tell.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron and Durant

[Akhenaten]

So you agreed with a lot of what he said? Nice post.


But as far as your exact statement? Yeah, nobody in the league today that could do it. None of the current players are athletic enough to do it.


not sure if you're being coy or if you are that cretinous

Fresco said no one believed it could be done in '59 until someone came along and did it

then goes on to say no one TODAY could do it because they are not athletic enough :facepalm, obviously intimating that the guy who did it in the 60's was in a whole other realm of athletic prowess compared to anyone before or after him

hopefully for your sake you're not so stupid that you really believed I was agreeing with that condescending drivel.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

[chazzy]

It was just a different league back in the 60s with the pace they played at. It would just be absurd for one player to average that right now. It takes both a certain type of skillset AND mindset to score 50 on a given night, no way anyone could do it nightly

[jzek]

Nick Young could average 50 points... in a half.

[La Frescobaldi]

not sure if you're being coy or if you are that cretinous

Fresco said no one believed it could be done in '59 until someone came along and did it

then goes on to say no one TODAY could do it because they are not athletic enough :facepalm, obviously intimating that the guy who did it in the 60's was in a whole other realm of athletic prowess compared to anyone before or after him

hopefully for your sake you're not so stupid that you really believed I was agreeing with that condescending drivel.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

I'm not intimating it, I say it straight up - I've never seen any player in the NBA as athletic as that man was - and I didn't see him in his most athletic years.
I said nothing about him doing it in today's NBA.

Tell me who else you have seen get this high from a vertical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

While you're at it, tell me who else ever went an average of 45 mpg over a 14 year career.

And since you say this:

No player from your era could do it either
the talent disparity between the best player and the worst player is FAAAR less pronounced than it was back then

playing in today's NBA is just far more taxing on the body, "everybody" is privy to the best nutrition and conditioning programs, "everybody" is athletic etc.

Wilt Chamberlain isn't avg 48 mpg in today's league, that's a joke
152 possessions per game is also a joke

You should study this:
http://www.nba.com/sixers/media/pollack_statistical_guide_2010.pdf

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7393/wiltchamberlain.png
Look at the dates - huge amounts of back to back games.

Look at these dates, then look at those points.
1/17/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 62
1/18/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 54
1/19/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 53
1/20/62 Detroit at Philadelphia 44
1/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 62

5 games in 5 days, and the LOW game was 44 points.

Do you really think today's game is "more taxing" than a back to back to back to back to back? Seriously?
Has it occurred to you that the same pace that you knock was tremendously faster than today's game? Somehow all that sprinting made the game less taxing?

It's easy enough to say no other player in history could put up numbers like that. If they could, they would, and they haven't.

[Greg Oden 50]

Lebron and Durant

NO WAY :no:

[Breezy]

I agree with everyone previous to me that say that no one could average 50 ppg efficiently in today's league. No player ever could do that in today's league.

And just a brief complaint. I find it odd reasoning to say that X player had a faster pace therefore we can adjust his points downward or adjust a slower paced players stats upward. Of course players who scored a lot of points played at a faster pace. THAT"S HOW YOU SCORE A LOT OF POINTS!!! That's like playing a 5 minute pickup game and scoring 10 points and then claiming "time adjusted I scored 88 points a game." Just because you scored x amount of points at once pace is no proof that you would have scored any specific amount more at a higher pace.

Basically here is what self diluted among us think. "Sorry Wilt, you scored your points too fast, they don't count."

[LAZERUSS]

I'm not intimating it, I say it straight up - I've never seen any player in the NBA as athletic as that man was - and I didn't see him in his most athletic years.
I said nothing about him doing it in today's NBA.

Tell me who else you have seen get this high from a vertical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

While you're at it, tell me who else ever went an average of 45 mpg over a 14 year career.

And since you say this:


You should study this:
http://www.nba.com/sixers/media/pollack_statistical_guide_2010.pdf

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7393/wiltchamberlain.png
Look at the dates - huge amounts of back to back games.

Look at these dates, then look at those points.
1/17/62 St. Louis at Philadelphia 62
1/18/62 Cincinnati at Philadelphia 54
1/19/62 Philadelphia at Detroit 53
1/20/62 Detroit at Philadelphia 44
1/21/62 Philadelphia at Syracuse 62

5 games in 5 days, and the LOW game was 44 points.

Do you really think today's game is "more taxing" than a back to back to back to back to back? Seriously?
Has it occurred to you that the same pace that you knock was tremendously faster than today's game? Somehow all that sprinting made the game less taxing?

It's easy enough to say no other player in history could put up numbers like that. If they could, they would, and they haven't.

:applause:

Kareem played 20 years in the NBA, and four of them were in the Wilt-era. At age 39 he dumped 46 points on a 23 year old Hakeem in 37 minutes, and in about the same week, he slapped Ewing with a 40 point game. And yet, his high game was "only" 55 points.

In his 71-72 season, at his peak, he averaged 34.8 ppg in 44.2 mpg.

He faced many of the same centers that a prime Chamberlain did, and think about this: His high game against Dierking was 41 points. His high game against Jim Fox was 40 points. His high game against Thurmond was 34 points. His high game against Imhoff was 36 points. His high game against Reed was 41 points. And his high game against an aging Bellamy, whom he faced in some 20 h2h games (and Bellamy had some big games against him) was 39 points.

How about Wilt? In his 68-69 season, alone, and just a year before Kareem (Alcindor) came into the league, and in a year in which Chamberlain had no desire to score, he had a 60 point game against Dierking, and a 66 point game against Fox. A prime scoring Wilt had games of 38 and 45 against Thurmond. He had an entire season, covering nine games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Reed, with high games of 52 and 58. Bellamy? In a span of twnety straight games, from the 61-62 season thru the 62-63 season, Wilt averaged (yes, averaged) 48 ppg against Bellamy, including four of 60+ and a high of 73. Oh, and Imhoff? At his peak, a 50 point game was an average one against Imhoff, including one of 67. And while I can't entirely knock Imhoff for the 100 point game, it was interesting that Darrell received a standing ovation in his next game against Wilt, in which he "held" Chamberlain to 58 points.

[LAZERUSS]

I agree with everyone previous to me that say that no one could average 50 ppg efficiently in today's league. No player ever could do that in today's league.

And just a brief complaint. I find it odd reasoning to say that X player had a faster pace therefore we can adjust his points downward or adjust a slower paced players stats upward. Of course players who scored a lot of points played at a faster pace. THAT"S HOW YOU SCORE A LOT OF POINTS!!! That's like playing a 5 minute pickup game and scoring 10 points and then claiming "time adjusted I scored 88 points a game." Just because you scored x amount of points at once pace is no proof that you would have scored any specific amount more at a higher pace.

Basically here is what self diluted among us think. "Sorry Wilt, you scored your points too fast, they don't count."

It's interesting that the Wilt-bashers always bring up pace, era, what have you, but they never answer the question of, why only Wilt? Why was it only Chamberlain that was ...


Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplished that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)


In Wilt's 14 seasons in the NBA, from '59-60 thru '72-73, and aside from Chamberlain, there were a total of five 60+ point games (Baylor with four, and West with one.)

How about Wilt? 32...including six of the 10, 70+ games, in the entire history of the NBA.


With all of the so-called "pace" of the game, isn't it fascinating that only Wilt was really taking advantage of it?

[Rysio]

lol at anyone saying durant or lebrick. to average 50 you'd need 40+ shots a game and both these clowns rely on cherry picking to keep high fg% they dont even have the time to cherry pick 20+ shots a game, what makes you think they can do it with 40+? :no:

[La Frescobaldi]

It's interesting that the Wilt-bashers always bring up pace, era, what have you, but they never answer the question of, why only Wilt? Why was it only Chamberlain that was ...


Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplished that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)


In Wilt's 14 seasons in the NBA, from '59-60 thru '72-73, and aside from Chamberlain, there were a total of five 60+ point games (Baylor with four, and West with one.)

How about Wilt? 32...including six of the 10, 70+ games, in the entire history of the NBA.


With all of the so-called "pace" of the game, isn't it fascinating that only Wilt was really taking advantage of it?

The entire NBA scoring - as a league - went up like 6 or 7 points when he entered as rookie. Teams were frantically trying to find some way to compete against him.
Walter Dukes was a C back then - 7 foot, powerful, fairly solid defense, good post moves, could run the floor........ a double double Center like the countless Hicksons & Dalemberts the league has seen over the years. Phil Jordon was another typical NBA center... 6'10" strong, a 10 & 8 center.... Dolph Schayes was a 20-10 guy for years.

But look at the league leaders in points.
This is from 2010-11 season
Points
1. Kevin Durant-OKC 2161
2. LeBron James-MIA 2111
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 2078
4. Derrick Rose-CHI 2026
5. Amar'e Stoudemire-NYK 1971

This is from 1961-62 season.

Points
1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 4029
2. Walt Bellamy*-CHP 2495
3. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 2432
4. Bob Pettit*-STL 2429
5. Jerry West*-LAL 2310

I never saw Pettit, or don't remember it. But Bill Russell flat out calls him a top 10 player in this 1997 interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdd2biHVlyA
so the dude must have been somethin' else.

But Bells, Oscar Robertson & Jerry West would be absolute stars in today's NBA and look at the amazing numbers they had that season. You see? They DID take advantage of the tremendous pace, Lazeruss. I loved West but I'm not sure he was a greater scorer than Durant (who was using rip move to get tons of points). It was the PACE that put Logo's numbers into the stratosphere like that.

It's the separation from the rest of the NBA that makes Chamberlain's achievements so astounding.
FOUR THOUSAND POINTS.

What's even crazier about the whole thing... is this:
Total Rebounds
1. Wilt Chamberlain*-PHW 2052
2. Bill Russell*-BOS 1790
3. Walt Bellamy*-CHP 1500
4. Bob Pettit*-STL 1459
5. Red Kerr-SYR 1176

The guy had enormous separation from the rest of the NBA... IN REBOUNDS TOO. Think of the energy level, the stamina, a guy has to have to be able to do those kinds of things.

The point of all those numbers is this. Sure, you'd have to have an insane pace, league-wide, to put up 50ppg. Absolutely.
But even if today's entire NBA decided to go after it full throttle, full court sprinting and almost pure fast break basketball... there just isn't anyone who could get 50 ppg.
I DO think it would be possible for LeBron James to get 37 or 38+ ppg in the perfect situation. Maybe even 40ppg. The guy is just incredible athlete.

But 50?

Has anyone else achieved those numbers at ANY level of basketball?

[LAZERUSS]

No player from your era could do it either
the talent disparity between the best player and the worst player is FAAAR less pronounced than it was back then

playing in today's NBA is just far more taxing on the body, "everybody" is privy to the best nutrition and conditioning programs, "everybody" is athletic etc.

Wilt Chamberlain isn't avg 48 mpg in today's league, that's a joke
152 possessions per game is also a joke


Despite your obvious lack of knowledge about the players from "your era", let's just assume that your premise was correct, and that the disparity between players was "FAAAR less pronounced."

What about the best players of that era, then? Hopefully you have seen the Russell footage that exists on YouTube. And hopefully you realize that, contrary to popular belief, Russell was actually a shade under 6-10, and not the 6-9 listed at basketball-reference. And, if you were to measure Russell in shoes, as is the common method in today's NBA, he would have been over 6-11, and taller than Dwight Howard. He also had an enormous wingspan (he had a standing reach higher than the 7-3 Swede Holbrook.)

Furthermore, Russell was a world-class high-jumper, and at one time ranked as high as seventh in the world. And he did so despite not devoting anything close to full-time in that pursuit.

Most knowledgable "experts" rank Russell as the greatest defensive center to have ever played the game, and in fact, the greatest defensive player of all-time. And there have been indepth analysis' done which clearly show his overall defensive impact, and in some, at least, it was the equal of MJ's offensive impact.

Then, factor in that even his teammates have acknowledged that Russell had help in defending Chamberlain. Yet, Wilt had entire seasons, covering 9-12 games, in which he averaged 38, 38, and even 40 ppg against Russell and his Celtics. He somehow managed five games of 50+ against Russell, with a high of 62. He had multiple playoff series against Russell of between 30-34 ppg, with a high playoff game, (in a "must-win" game BTW), of 50 points.

So, we are not dealing here with some small sample-size. In the first half of his career, thru his 65-66 season, Wilt probably averaged about 34 ppg against Russell. And over the course of his 143 head-to-head games againt Russell, Chamberlain averaged 28.7 ppg and on about .500 shooting (in leagues that shot about .430-.435, on average in that span), as well as outrebounding Russell by a 28.7 to 23.7 margin.

I realize that most of those numbers are difficult to comprehend, but here was Chamberlain, being defended by the greatest single defensive force in the history of the game, as well as being doubled, and even swarmed in much of those encounters, and yet he was still posting a near 30-30 .500 game, on average, and over the course of 143 games.

[LAZERUSS]

@Lazerus,

What's your story? You obviously have an incredible love for basketball, but are all of these essays/posts done through research or personal experience?

No matter the answer, do you work in basketball, or are you consumed by your passion/hobby? Never seen someone make such long, factual posts about players/games/stories 40+ years ago.

I have been a sports fan for many years, and not just a basketball fan. I grew up idolizing Mays, Starr, OJ (I know...), and Wilt. And at one time I despised Koufax, Mantle, Jim Brown, and Russell. However, as the year's have gone by, and the more I have read, and researched, the more I have come to respect what all of those great athletes accomplished.

Keep in mind that, during the 60's, available information was nothing like it is today. In fact, there is now far more information available, which has been gleaned from that era.

And, for years, like so many other's do today, I just assumed that, as each season, and each decade, went by, that athletes became bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled, and just plain better. I recall the Notre Dame head coach, Ara Parseigian, claiming that the '88 Irish team would have beaten his '66 team by 40 points. And a major publication ran an article in 1984 comparing the '71 Nebraska Cornhusker National Champion team with the then-current '84 team. The '84 team weighed, on average, nearly 30 lbs more per man, and had several players faster than Johnny Rogers, who was the fastest player on the '71 team.

Of course, of all of the three major team sports (sorry hockey fans), football is the most physically dependant sport. True, athleticism, size, and strength, are all pluses in the basketball and baseball, too, but those two sports are more "skills based" than based on pure physical ability. How do I know that? How could Mays hit far more homeruns than Frank Howard? And how come Larry Bird could dominate games, while James White rides the bench, and the 7-4, 350 lb. Priest Lauderdale couldn't make an NBA roster?

Now, granted, football players are bigger, stronger, and generally faster than those of other eras. Linemen average well over 300 lbs, and there are even quarterbacks who tip the scales at 260+. And yes, the average NFL player is faster, per man, than those of 20, 30, and 40 years ago.

However, there have been players in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, who were faster than those of the current NFL. Trindon Holiday, who is basically only a return man, is probably the fastest player in the NFL today. And yet, there were faster players playing long ago. And Chris Johnson? There have been several running backs in the history of the game who were probably faster.

How about Darrell Green for starters? The man played in the 80's, and had "unofficial" 40 times of as low as 4.09 and 4.15. He also ran a 10.08 100 meters. He was winning "the NFL's fastest man" contests even into the late 90's. And how about this...about a year ago, when he turned age 50, he went out and ran a 4.43 40!

How about Bo Jackson? Who at one time, was among the fastest 60 meter runners in the world, and who clocked the fastest 40 yard time in NFL combine history at 4.12 (granted it was hand-held.)

Hershel Walker? Ran a 10.1 100 meters, at 220 lbs. Ran a 9.2 hundred yards in high school.

OJ? Ran a 9.4 hundred yards, and was a member of USC's world-record holding 4x100 yard relay team.

Cliff Branch? 9.2 100 yards. Mel Gray? 9.2 100 yard yards.

Oh, and the fastest NFL player of all-time? None other than Bob Hayes, who played in the 60's, and who ran a 10.06 100 meters, and a 9.1 100 yards. And, unlike Holiday, Hayes was a HOF player who averaged 42 yards-per-play on his 76 career TDs.

As for the "skinny, slow" NFL players of the 50's and 60's? Think about this... Jimmy Brown was a 6-2, 230 lb running back, with track speed. His size, strength, and speed would certainly make him one of the best backs of this era. And, while he did put up spectacular numbers in his era (5.2 ypc), how come he wasn't just slaughtering those helpless players at the time? Why wasn't he averaging 10+ ypc, and scoring 4-5 TDs per game? In fact, he was below ordinary in his four post-season games, and just plain awful in one, when he carried seven times for eight yards. How could those small, slow NFL'ers have contained a man of such size and speed?


SI ran an article a few years back in which they listed the distance of everyone of Barry Bonds' homeruns. His longest, "pre-PEDs", was 475 ft. His longest, "PED-enhanced" was 490.

Now, google "tape-measure" and "Mickey Mantle." He was routinely hitting 500+ ft homers, and from both sides of the plate. He has hit the longest homeruns in MLB history. All from a 5-11, 190 lb. man, who, if anything, was limited by alcohol consumption, and who, by his own admission, didn't bother taking care of himself, because he believed he was going to die at a young age.

I mentioned Jimmy Brown, and how, as great as he was, he wasn't light years ahead of his peer. Same goes for Bob Feller, who pitched as far back as the 30's. There are accounts which claim that Feller was throwing upwards of 98+ mph (some at over 100.) Yet, compare his k/9 with that of many of the modern pitchers, and it would be way down the list. And while he had some very good ERAs, they were never brilliant. How could those unathletic white guys of that era, keep up with a near 100 mph fastball?

Fastest pitcher of all-time? Aroldis Chapman holds the "official" mark at 105 mph. And there are quite a few from this modern era who have topped 100. But, Nolan Ryan, back in the 8th inning of a game in 1974, and after throwing 162 pitches, was clocked at 101. By a slow gun. Yes, a slow gun.

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/

As you can read, at least one source claims that Ryan was throwing at around 108. And, none other than Mitch Williams, on the Dan Patrick show a year ago, claimed that Ryan threw harder than Chapman.

Furthermore, Ryan may not have been the hardest thrower of his era, either. Just google the name of Steve Dalkowski.


And, for those that claim that the rotunt, chicked-legged Ruth, and his 42 ounce bat, would not make a minor league team today, think about this. Of course Ruth, at his peak, was busting 59-60 homeruns in a season. Late in his career, and well past his peak, and in 1932, at age 37, he hit 41, while batting .341. He would be out of baseball within two years after that. In that same 1932 season, a prime Jimmy Foxx slammed 58 HRs. In 1938, Foxx hit 50. So what you ask?

In 1939, Foxx, in his last great season, hit 35 HRs while batting .360. He would decline rapidly after that. But, interestingly, in 1939, rookie Ted Williams batted .327 with 31 HRs. And he did so against at least some of the pitchers that Ruth had faced only a few years before.

In 1941 Williams had a historic season in which he batted .406 with 37 HRs.

So what? That was long ago, and before integration. Ok then, how about his 1957 season, then? In a league that had been integrated for 10 years, and at age 38, Williams batted .388 with 38 HRs. And in his last season, at age 41, in 1960, he batted .316 with 29 HRs in only 310 ABs. So, here was a Williams, who performed just as brilliantly against the some of the hurlers that Ruth faced in the 30's, as he would against pitchers, some of whom would be pitching in the early 70's.

And while Williams was slugging 38 HRs in 1957, Henry Aaron was belting 44 in that same season. And how about Aaron some 16 seasons later, in 1973. when he tagged 40 HRs in only 392 ABs? And against pitchers who would pitch into the 80's?

Perhaps the greatest baseball "bridge" was the aforementioned Ryan. The man pitched for 27 seasons, that covered four decades. At age 44, and as recently as 1991, he went 12-6 with an ERA of 2.91 (in a hitters era), and with 203 k's in 173 ip. I already documented his velocity earlier, but how about this...his very last pitch of his career, at age 46, and on an injured arm, was clocked at 98 mph!


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

There have been several "bridges" in the NBA as well. Players like Havlicek, Pettit, Barry, and later, Moses, Parish, and Karl Malone. You can look up their stats for yourself, but they were playing brilliantly in dual decades, and against competition that came before them, and then players who would go to play many years after them.

The greatest "bridge" in NBA history? KAJ. His career spanned nearly four decades, and he would face many of the greats who played in the 60's, as well as greats who would play in the 90's.

And, as I posted earlier, at age 38-39, he had a string of 10 straight games, against a young Hakeem, in which he averaged 32 ppg on .630 shooting. This from a Kareem who could barely get off the floor. Included were games of 40, 43, and even 46 (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes of work.) And. at age 39, he plastered a young Ewing in a game in which he outscored Patrick, 40-9, and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.

Of course, given the above...a 39 year old Kareem blowing away Hakeem and Ewing...then the assumption would have to be that a younger, more athletic Kareem, and playing against the "weak" competition of the 60's and 70's, must have been shattering records back in the 70's, right? True, he was the most dominant player of that period, but a relative unknown by the name of 6-11 Nate Thurmond, battled KAJ in over 40 head-to-heads, and Kareem's high game? 34 points. Not only that, but Kareem probably shot around .440 in those 40 games. KAJ had as many games of under 20 points against Nate, seven, as he did of over 30.

And, a Wilt, in the twi-light of his career, and on a surgically repaired knee, held Kareem to .464 shooting in their 28 h2h games (Kareem, at ages 38-41, shot a career .610 against Hakeem BTW.) And a more prime Wilt, in his lone head-to-head against KAJ before he shredded his knee, just abused the rookie Kareem. Even as late as his last season, Wilt outshot Kareem in their six head-to-head games, .737 to .450.

And, as I mentioned earlier, Kareem faced many of the same centers that a prime Wilt had faced in the 60's...and never came close to the overwhelming dominance that the prime Chamberlain leveled against them.

Furthermore, the great centers of the 70's, Lanier, Gilmore, Cowens, Walton, and McAdoo, all had their share of "wins" in their head-to-heads with a prime Kareem. McAdoo even posted a 41 point game against Kareem. Gilmore may have actually have held a slight overall edge in terms of overall h2h's against Kareem. And Cowens, on the road, outplayed KAJ in a game seven of the Finals.

And how about Moses? Malone just pounded Kareem in the majority of their 40 head-to-head meetings...especially in their post-season matchups.

Think about all of the above next time someone mentions that the level of play today is much better than that of 20-30-40 years ago.

[fpliii]

jlauber - As usual, I don't have interest in taking one side or another in this brand of debate. I do want to let you though that Gorba's recently updated nbastats.net, so be sure to check out the new/updated files when you have a chance.

[Iceman#44]

LAZERUSS, amazing posts!! :applause: :applause:

[Iceman#44]

Has anyone else achieved those numbers at ANY level of basketball?


I'm thinking about this...Pistol Pete Maravich scores 44.5 ppg during 1970 NCAA season...

I think that's the closest one...

EDIT: little research

Hector Campana scores 44.2 ppg in Liga A Argentina - 1990
Oscar Schmidt scores 44.0 ppg in A2 League Italy - 1991
Nikos Galis scores 43.9 ppg in League A Greece - 1981

[La Frescobaldi]

I'm thinking about this...Pistol Pete Maravich scores 44.5 ppg during 1970 NCAA season...

I think that's the closest one...

EDIT: little research

Hector Campana scores 44.2 ppg in Liga A Argentina - 1990
Oscar Schmidt scores 44.0 ppg in A2 League Italy - 1991
Nikos Galis scores 43.9 ppg in League A Greece - 1981

yeah.... we are talking about any level....... high school, college....... anywhere... ever.... has anyone else ever done it?

and then after that... we'd still have to talk about rebounds

[Iceman#44]

Well, i have a lot of stats from International Basketball leagues, but to my knowledge, no one has ever come close to 50 ppg...the closest one is Pistol Pete i think...i will look into this and let you know.:rockon:

[CavaliersFTW]

:cheers: welcome back JL! What the heck happened to your old account?

[Iceman#44]

Update: also former Nets Drazen Petrovic scores 43.3 ppg during 1985-1986 season with Cibona Zagreb...:applause:

[zizozain]

:cheers: welcome back JL! What the heck happened to your old account?
is that him?

welcome back jlauber

[DatAsh]

is that him?

welcome back jlauber

It is. I'm curious as to why he was banned on his other account. To my knowledge, he didn't do anything ban worthy.

[CavaliersFTW]

is that him?

welcome back jlauber
Yep

[LAZERUSS]

yeah.... we are talking about any level....... high school, college....... anywhere... ever.... has anyone else ever done it?

and then after that... we'd still have to talk about rebounds

Rebounds and blocked shots.

The anti-Wilt clan will invariably bring up pace and era in the rebounding discussions. True, rebounds were more plentiful in the 60's. But the uneducated will immediately post league-wide numbers of 70-75 rpg, which, of course, would be wrong. Team rebounds were added to team totals until the beginning of the 68-69 season. Just take a look at the "decline" in team rpg from 67-68 to 68-69.

Granted, the available rebounds were still considerably higher than those of today. For much of the 60's they were around 60 rpg. In today's NBA they are around 43. If you account for the differences, a peak Chamberlain would be at about 17-18 rpg in today's NBA.

Still, how about a Wilt who had eight post-seasons of 24+, with a low of 20.2, and highs of 29 and 30? Or a Chamberlain with playoff series, and against the great Bill Russell, of 30, 31, and even 32 rpg?

Take for instance his '66-67 ECF's against Russell. In that series, he not only averaged 32 rpg (outrebounding Russell by nearly nine per game), he had three games of... 32 rebounds out of a total of 120; 36 out of a total of 128; and a playoff record of 41, out of 134 available.

BTW, Wilt not only outrebounded Russell by five per game over the course of their 143 h2h's, he had games in which he was outboarding by as much as 55-19.

Same for Nate Thurmond, who was the third best rebounder of that era. Wilt not only outrebounded Thurmond in their three playoff series' h2h's, he did so by margins of 28.5 to 26.7 (and outrebounded him five of those six games);, 23.5 to 19.5; and in his last season, and against a Thurmond who was second in the league in rebounding, by a margin of 23.6 to 17.2.

The fact was, Wilt was just outrebounding everyone. He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded in any of them. And he was routinely facing a HOF center in the process (Reed three times, Bellamy twice, Nate three times, Kareem twice, and Russell eight times.)

And how about this? In his last post-season, covering 17 playoff games, the 36 year old Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. Now, let's put that into perspective...that would be the last time any player would ever average more than 17.3 rpg in a post-season (Kareem in his 11 playoff games in '77.) Once again...from a Wilt in his very last post-season.


Shot-blocking? Thanks to the impeccable research of ThaRegul8r, we now know that Chamberlain averaged 5.42 bpg in his very last season. A prime Mark Eaton would set the "official" record of 5.56 12 years later. So, here was a Wilt, at well-past his prime, nearly equalling the "record" that was established just twleve years after his last game. BTW, the NBA began tracking blocked shots the very next season, two of the better shot-blockers of the Wilt-era, Kareem and Nate, averaged 3.5 and 2.9 respectively. Kareem's high would be 4.1.

Of course, there are educated estimates, by none other than Harvey Pollack, that have a prime Chamberlain with seasons of 10+. There are sites that list estimates of a Wilt in the mid-60's, with many games of 10+, as well as multiple games of 20+, and even a couple of 30+. We also have what was a nationally televised game in 1968, in which SI recorded Chamberlain with 23 known blocks. Which was considerably more than the "official" NBA record of 17 that Elmore Smith had in 1974.

And, in regards to rebounding, ThaRegul8r and Psileas have mentioned that Wilt (and Russell) were having seasons of 8+ bpg, which in essence, reduced their rpg opportunities, especially if you factor in that they were not only blocking 8+ shots, they were probably going after another 8+ per game.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, and way off topic...

but kudos to the many knowlegable posters on this site. I won't take time to mention them all, and I apologize to those that I am sure I forgot, but CavsFan and Phila, with their incredible video collections, some of which have recently received national attention. And ThaRegul8r, Psileas, Julizaver, and fpliii, all of whom have unearthed tons of valuable research for the players of the 60's and 70's. And to the posters who have added much to these topics, like DatAsh, Pointguard, LaFrescobaldi, legends6667, Kblaze, G.O.A.T, ShaqAttack, DMavs41, and the many others who I should have taken the time to look up and thank. BTW, I may not always agree with them, but I certainly respect their opinions.

This site is a basketball "goldmine", and for those that want to take the time, there is much historical value here.

Oh, and for those that believe that I live only in the past...I am a fan of basketball...period. My all-time top-15, which changes all the time, includes Dr. J, Oscar, West, Hakeem, Moses, LeBron, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Magic, Russell, MJ, and Wilt. Players who were brilliant across all eras.

Now, back to the OP...

[Element]

Lmao at anyone picking KD35 (Whistles)

He shot 42% in his first and only 50pt game with 22 FT's or so

[La Frescobaldi]

Update: also former Nets Drazen Petrovic scores 43.3 ppg during 1985-1986 season with Cibona Zagreb...:applause:

I think Tom McMillen came closest - back in 1970 in high school he averaged 47 ppg!!!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1083497/

"McMillen is one of this year's stars who is undecided on a college, so he was lovingly courted by representatives of the four Atlantic Coast Conference schools he is known to be considering: Maryland, North Carolina, Duke and Virginia. McMillen is worth the tender attention. He averaged 47 points a game this season, and his offensive talents dazzled onlookers at the Dapper Dan practice sessions."

but... he only averaged 8 ppg in the NBA

[Iceman#44]

Found this article on eurobasket, 22 aug. 2012. Look like american guard Everage Richardson is scoring huge in Dirk's country...:biggums:
Not surprise to see that Usa guys rules all around the world...:rockon:
:rockon:



"According to our database*, Everage Richardson (191-G-85, college: Co.Carolina) is once again the best basketball scorer of the world. The American player ended the 2011-2012 season with 42.1 points per game, playing in Germany for the Oberharz in the 2.Regionalliga League. From the 2009 season, the American guard marks over 40 points per game, and it was in 2010 & 2011 the leading scorer in the world respectively scoring 48.8 and 47.8 points per game.
In second place, just like last year, the Italian guard Thomas Branca (188-G-88), who finished with a career best of 37.9 points per game, playing for Borgosesia in italian Serie D League. In 3rd place overall still an Italian player: Costanzo Ruocco (184-SF-83) of Capri ended with 35.7 ppg, playing in the Promozione Italian league with a season high of 63 points. Over 35 per game also for American Greg Hernandez (198-C, college: Maryville, TN) of Glamorgan (35.3), English club of the EBL Division 2. Close the Top 5 of the Rossendale Stephen Gayle (180-G-80) (EBL Division 4), at 34.8 ppg. Rashaun Freeman (206-C/F-84, college: Massachusetts) scores 34.7 in Chinas NBL for Heilongjiang for 6th place and Ricky Easterling (188-G-83, college: Bridgewater) 34.5 ppg for Saarlouis in Germany (1.Regionalliga League).

* based on the statistics of 140 World Basketball Leagues College & Youth tournaments are not included)

2012 WORLD SCORING RACE:
42.1 - Everage Richardson (191-G-85) (Oberharz), 2.Regionalliga (Germany)
37.9 - Thomas Branca (188-G-88) (Borgosesia), Serie D (Italy)
35.7 - Costanzo Ruocco (184-SF-83) (Capri), Promozione (Italy)
35.3 - Greg Hernandez (198-C) (Glamorgan), EBL Division 2 (United Kingdom)
34.8 - Stephen Gayle (180-G-80) (Rossendale), EBL Division 4 (United Kingdom)
34.7 - Rashaun Freeman (206-C/F-84) (Heilongjiang), NBL (China)
34.5 - Ricky Easterling (188-G-83) (Saarlouis), 1.Regionalliga (Germany)
34.4 - J.R. Smith (198-G-85) (Zhejiang), CBA (China)
34.4 - Lloyd Johnson (180-G-85) (Albany), IBA (USA)
34.2 - Adeleke Kenny (205-C-83) (Henan), NBL (China)
34.2 - Ryan Edwards (196-F-83) (Kankakee), IBA (USA)
33.8 - Hugo Sierra Moreira (190-G/F-73) (Cerignola), Serie D (Italy)
33.6 - Lester Hudson (191-G-84) (Qingdao), CBA (China)
33.4 - Fahreed Cheatham (196-F-79, college: Lincoln, PA) (Destroyers), ACPBL (USA)
32.0 - Williams Marcus (200-F/G-86) (Shanxi), CBA (China)"

[La Frescobaldi]

I honestly don't believe his endurance is sufficient to average 50 points per game for a full season - I think he has every necessary tool except endurance but endurance is huge. Reading through newspaper recaps, sports articles, and hearing interviews about both Wilt's 50ppg season and Kareems early Bucks years (plus I've now got a few full games with announcers discussing Kareem's "lack" of stamina) I've come to the conclusion that Wilt's indefatigable endurance was a key factor to his 50ppg season and Kareem's one "weakness" if you will, happens to be a lack of floor stamina in comparison to Wilt. Willis Reed said Wilt would run you all game long in the first half, chug a bottle of 7 up at half time and run you to the ground throughout the 2nd half, and seemed like he could do it all over again if he needed too, where as Kareem would run out of gas during games. Not important in the long haul of their career accolades, but important if we're speculating whether Kareem could duplicate Wilt's 50ppg. Wilt played every minute of every game that season because he was asked too because the coach knew he could, and I think those minutes were necessary for him to score 50. I think the same would be true for Kareem, but I just can't see him doing those minutes with what has been said about his stamina.
reps are back you have to get one on a most interesting observation about stamina

[La Frescobaldi]

BTW, and as most here are aware, Chamberlain averaged 48.5 mpg in his 61-62 season. In a season in which he played a ton of back-to-back games, and which included several separate stretches of 3-4-and even-5 games in a row.

For those that would suggest "player-A" could average 50 ppg, give me an example of one other player who accomplished what Chamberlain did in that '62 season. The only player who challenged those numbers, ...was Wilt, himself.

At MJ's peak, he averaged 40 mpg. Kobe was at 41.5 mpg. Shaq had one season of 40 mpg, as did Hakeem. And while I'm sure that all of them were capable of more mpg, does anyone in their right mind believe that they could sustain the same efficiency playing 48 mpg, instead of 40? Night-after-night? Much less in a condensed schedule that Wilt had in '62?
From all I've seen so far........ easily the best of the April, 2013 crowd.......:lol
I dunno if this is a compliment or an insult but you were one of the main posters, along with a handful of others who also have fallen silent, that made me choose Insidehoops over some of the other great Internet bulletin boards out there... hopefully they will also return from their silence!! I've read some of those old threads with close attention.
Did you see Abe Lincoln while you were gone?

[AintNoSunshine]

no one, maybe put durant or lebron in the WNBA

[stanlove1111]

Rebounds and blocked shots.

The anti-Wilt clan will invariably bring up pace and era in the rebounding discussions. True, rebounds were more plentiful in the 60's. But the uneducated will immediately post league-wide numbers of 70-75 rpg, which, of course, would be wrong. Team rebounds were added to team totals until the beginning of the 68-69 season. Just take a look at the "decline" in team rpg from 67-68 to 68-69.

Granted, the available rebounds were still considerably higher than those of today. For much of the 60's they were around 60 rpg. In today's NBA they are around 43. If you account for the differences, a peak Chamberlain would be at about 17-18 rpg in today's NBA.

Still, how about a Wilt who had eight post-seasons of 24+, with a low of 20.2, and highs of 29 and 30? Or a Chamberlain with playoff series, and against the great Bill Russell, of 30, 31, and even 32 rpg?

Take for instance his '66-67 ECF's against Russell. In that series, he not only averaged 32 rpg (outrebounding Russell by nearly nine per game), he had three games of... 32 rebounds out of a total of 120; 36 out of a total of 128; and a playoff record of 41, out of 134 available.

BTW, Wilt not only outrebounded Russell by five per game over the course of their 143 h2h's, he had games in which he was outboarding by as much as 55-19.

Same for Nate Thurmond, who was the third best rebounder of that era. Wilt not only outrebounded Thurmond in their three playoff series' h2h's, he did so by margins of 28.5 to 26.7 (and outrebounded him five of those six games);, 23.5 to 19.5; and in his last season, and against a Thurmond who was second in the league in rebounding, by a margin of 23.6 to 17.2.

The fact was, Wilt was just outrebounding everyone. He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded in any of them. And he was routinely facing a HOF center in the process (Reed three times, Bellamy twice, Nate three times, Kareem twice, and Russell eight times.)

And how about this? In his last post-season, covering 17 playoff games, the 36 year old Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg per team. Now, let's put that into perspective...that would be the last time any player would ever average more than 17.3 rpg in a post-season (Kareem in his 11 playoff games in '77.) Once again...from a Wilt in his very last post-season.


Shot-blocking? Thanks to the impeccable research of ThaRegul8r, we now know that Chamberlain averaged 5.42 bpg in his very last season. A prime Mark Eaton would set the "official" record of 5.56 12 years later. So, here was a Wilt, at well-past his prime, nearly equalling the "record" that was established just twleve years after his last game. BTW, the NBA began tracking blocked shots the very next season, two of the better shot-blockers of the Wilt-era, Kareem and Nate, averaged 3.5 and 2.9 respectively. Kareem's high would be 4.1.

Of course, there are educated estimates, by none other than Harvey Pollack, that have a prime Chamberlain with seasons of 10+. There are sites that list estimates of a Wilt in the mid-60's, with many games of 10+, as well as multiple games of 20+, and even a couple of 30+. We also have what was a nationally televised game in 1968, in which SI recorded Chamberlain with 23 known blocks. Which was considerably more than the "official" NBA record of 17 that Elmore Smith had in 1974.

And, in regards to rebounding, ThaRegul8r and Psileas have mentioned that Wilt (and Russell) were having seasons of 8+ bpg, which in essence, reduced their rpg opportunities, especially if you factor in that they were not only blocking 8+ shots, they were probably going after another 8+ per game.


Wilt was the second best rebounder ever behind Russell..

[Bibby4Three]

Maravich in present day NBA would average 60+ ppg.

[BigDipper13]

Wilt was the second best rebounder ever behind Russell..

Wilt was every bit the rebounder that Russell was. Chamberlain is the all time best.

[jzek]

Crawford could do it.

Nick Young could do it... by halftime.

[stanlove1111]

Wilt was every bit the rebounder that Russell was. Chamberlain is the all time best.


Russell was the best rebounder ever and did average more per minute then Wilt. Russell played away from the basket on both ends of the court much more then Wilt. On offfense Russell would set up at the high post to give his teammates room in the lane..Wilt refused to do that..On defense Russell challenged players farther out while Wilt always stayed right near the basket.Its been discussed before on here..And when this is all considered Russell still averaged more rebounds per minute then Wilt.

If Russell wanted to stay near the basket all the time and only worry about his rebounding obviously his totals would have gone up..Russell was the best rebounder ever..

This is the reason i would never consider Rodmen the best rebounder ever..Thats all Rodman did. IF Wilt or Russell ONLY wanted to get rebounds like Rodamn their totals might have gone up by 5- 10 a game.

[CavaliersFTW]

Russell was the best rebounder ever and did average more per minute then Wilt. Russell played away from the basket on both ends of the court much more then Wilt. On offfense Russell would set up at the high post to give his teammates room in the lane..Wilt refused to do that..On defense Russell challenged players farther out while Wilt always stayed right near the basket.Its been discussed before on here..And when this is all considered Russell still averaged more rebounds per minute then Wilt.

If Russell wanted to stay near the basket all the time and only worry about his rebounding obviously his totals would have gone up..Russell was the best rebounder ever..

This is the reason i would never consider Rodmen the best rebounder ever..Thats all Rodman did. IF Wilt or Russell ONLY wanted to get rebounds like Rodamn their totals might have gone up by 5- 10 a game.
All you people who think your inside the heads of these past players are f**** crazy. I have game film of Wilt playing the high post clearing the lane for his teammates, and audio of his coach saying that is specifically how Wilt changed his game to play that way for the entire season (63-64 Warriors... which is the same system/style-of-play that Wilt would later duplicate to an even more extreme level on the Sixers for at least 2 other seasons 66-68) and I have the 1972 Finals where Wilt was literally blocking shots on defense out to nearly 30 feet following Lucas around and even swatting one of Monroes 23 foot shots. Please, STFU with this all this ultimatum "HE REFUSED TO BLAH BLAH BLAH" garbage posts. I suspect you've already created a hero out of Bill and an enemy out of Wilt. So any hope of objectivity has gone out the window. No, Wilt didn't "refuse" to play any particular way, in fact, he changed his game so many times any assertion that he "refused" to try or implement anything into his game is ridiculous. Bill more consistently was roaming outside of the key for his career because he had a slightly wider defensive arc simply due to his mobility - that is all that can really be said here.


*EDIT* And further - I have NBA Finals game film of Russell doing what your accusing Wilt of doing "Krebbs has stepped out side and started taking perimeter shots and Russell has refused to go out with him..." - kind of doesn't help your assertion does it? Again, the reality is Russell was a more mobile player than Wilt and roamed a slightly wider arc than Wilt. But both he and Wilt preferred (defensively) to stay inside a said arc. NEITHER refused to go outside of said arc though. Of course, there were special circumstances where both would venture out and take a gamble on defense such as Wilt's 1972 G5 NBA Finals game - but again, mostly BOTH guys stayed inside their imaginary defensive arcs. On offense Bill Russell wasn't this dominant back to the basket force, but could pass well so of course he played off the high post and passed for pretty much his entire career. Wilt on the other hand, could do anything - including dominate offensively with scoring with his back to the basket. So for much of his career he just scored points in the low post - and he did it this way because his TEAMS and COACHES wanted him to play that way. HOWEVER he did for 3 or more seasons play JUST like how you said he "refused" to play. There was no refusal at all to play that way, he even won his damn first title playing that way.

/rant

[stanlove1111]

All you people who think your inside the heads of these past players are f**** crazy. I have game film of Wilt playing the high post clearing the lane for his teammates, and audio of his coach saying that is specifically how Wilt changed his game to play that way for the entire season (63-64 Warriors... which is the same system/style-of-play that Wilt would later duplicate to an even more extreme level on the Sixers for at least 2 other seasons 66-68) and I have the 1972 Finals where Wilt was literally blocking shots on defense out to nearly 30 feet following Lucas around and even swatting one of Monroes 23 foot shots. Please, STFU with this all this ultimatum "HE REFUSED TO BLAH BLAH BLAH" garbage posts. I can tell you've already created a hero out of Bill and an enemy out of Wilt. So any hope of your objectivity has gone out the window. No, Wilt didn't "refuse" to play any particular way, in fact, he changed his game so many times any assertion that he "refused" to try or implement anything into his game is ridiculous.

First of all the fact that you are saying its getting into the heads of players makes you not to bright..I didn'[t get in anyones head. i watched their style for many years and listenedto what others players have said.


Yes or No..As a whole for their careers Russell played away from the backet much more then Wilt did..I think you know the answer to that and i know you saw the posts a month or so ago that had players saying that Russell was a threat to block your shot anywhere on the court while Wilt as a rule just stayed near the basket..So you are the one that needs to STFU or actually post here that as a rule Russsel played just as close to the basket as Wilt which of course will make you look like a liar or idiot or both..

By the way in 68-69 why was there a problem on the team. Oh yeah because Wilt refused to play away from the basket on offeense to make room for Baylor like his coach asked.

And actually Wilt was my favorite player but that changes nothing..Russell as the better per minute and playoff rebounder and did it while as a rule playing farther away from the basket then Wilt..Unless of course you deny that which will be good for a laugh.

[stanlove1111]

*EDIT* And further - I have NBA Finals game film of Russell doing what your accusing Wilt of doing "Krebbs has stepped out side and started taking perimeter shots and Russell has refused to go out with him..." - kind of doesn't help your assertion does it? Again, the reality is Russell was a more mobile player than Wilt and roamed a slightly wider arc than Wilt. But both he and Wilt preferred (defensively) to stay inside a said arc. NEITHER refused to go outside of said arc though, there were circumstances where both would venture out and take a gamble on defense. On offense Bill Russell wasn't this dominant back to the basket force, but could pass well so of course he played off the high post and passed for pretty much his entire career. Wilt on the other hand, could do anything - including dominant offensively with scoring with his back to the basket. So for much of his career he just scored points in the low post. HOWEVER he did for 3 or more seasons play JUST like how you said he "refused" to play. There was no refusal at all to play that way, he even won his damn first title playing that way.

/rant


. You want to argue so you are going to find what youw ant to see and ignore all the rest..Again as a whole did Wilt play closer to the backet then Russell for their careers? Deny it and there is no real sense of going on..They will have exposed yourself..

[CavaliersFTW]

. You want to argue so you are going to find what youw ant to see and ignore all the rest..Again as a whole did Wilt play closer to the backet then Russell for their careers? Deny it and there is no real sense of going on..They will have exposed yourself..
You made a blanket statement that Wilt "refused" to play a certain way which was ridiculous considering one of the ways (offensively) he played for at least 3 full seasons and won his first title), and the way you said he "refused" to play defensively he actually won his second title - roaming way outside of the key the way you said he refused to do it - it just flies in the face of reality. What you asserted he was like and what actually happened are two totally different things. Also, it's as if you've never seen Bill Russell play either if you think Bill didn't also like to stay within a restricted arc on defense - his arc was slightly bigger than Wilt's but both didn't like to go outside of it. I'm now watching some coverage of the 1966 Finals and Satch and Sam Jones just re-affirmed what I said (going against what you said) that Bill didn't like to step outside - he stayed inside. Your opinion genuinely sounds as if it was formed by other people (who are either journalists or haven't watched film) and your simply mirroring their opinion and accepting it as truth - where as I actually watch film and study how players played and adjusted their games throughout those years for myself. Again, I'm just saying, what you said and what appears to be the reality are two different things.

[stanlove1111]

You made a blanket statement that Wilt "refused" to play a certain way which was ridiculous considering one of the ways (offensively) he played for at least 3 full seasons and won his first title), and the way you said he "refused" to play defensively he actually won his second title - roaming way outside of the key the way you said he refused to do it - it just flies in the face of reality. What you asserted he was like and what actually happened are two totally different things. Also, it's as if you've never seen Bill Russell play either if you think Bill didn't also like to stay within a restricted arc on defense - his arc was slightly bigger than Wilt's but both didn't like to go outside of it. I'm now watching some coverage of the 1966 Finals and Satch and Sam Jones just re-affirmed what I said (going against what you said) that Bill didn't like to step outside - he stayed inside. Your opinion genuinely sounds as if it was formed by other you people (who are either journalists or haven't watched film) and your simply mirroring their opinion and accepting it as truth - where as I actually watch film and study how players played and adjusted their games throughout those years for myself. Again, I'm just saying, what you said and what appears to be the reality are two different things.


Did you see the posts about a month ago from numerous players who played at the time saying that Wilt wouldn't leave the lane on defense and Russell would? I would think they would know more then someone watching a few available films.


Is it a correct statement to say as whole wilt played closer to the basket on offense and defense then Russell did yet Russell averaged more rebounds per minute.

[CavaliersFTW]

Did you see the posts about a month ago from numerous players who played at the time saying that Wilt wouldn't leave the lane on defense and Russell would? I would think they would know more then someone watching a few available films.


Is it a correct statement to say as whole wilt played closer to the basket on offense and defense then Russell did yet Russell averaged more rebounds per minute.
:facepalm The posts? What the hell are you talking about? Do you mean the documentary on Bill Russell made by a journalist by the name of Bill Simmons who hates Wilt and throws Wilt under the bus all the time? Regardless of where your getting these quotes it must be understood that many quotes about Wilt Chamberlain (or for a variety of players) can be used in a way that lacks context particularly if used in journalists documentaries trying to paint one player in a better light than another. In Wilt's case particularly, Wilt played his entire career from 1959-1973. A lot of players he played with or against never was on the floor with/against him throughout his entire career, they only saw the first, or latter halves of it and this is a very important detail because Wilt significantly changed the way he played at least 3 times during his career. Also a lot of quotes are chopped down - sometimes players are speaking only about particular seasons or series, not about the whole of ones career. So any quotes about him doing, or not doing things, needs to be taken in context. All I can assure you of is;

*You asserted Wilt "refused" to play the high post and allow players freedom of the lanes - and this is 100% incorrect. His offensive role was actually to play the high-post and pass for at least 3 specific seasons - this was his job under Alex Hannum's coaching years for both Warriors and Philly and Wilt never "refused" co-operation with this though it did take him a while to warm up to Alex in '63-'64. But he came along and In fact, he made it to the NBA Finals, won an NBA title, and lead the league in assists when he played this way.

*You suggested Wilt didn't roam as far as Bill Russell. For the most part, this is true when Russell was active. But keep in mind there is an exception to this towards the end of Wilt's career after Bill and most of his Celtic teammates had all retired during the '72 season and probably in the '73 season where Wilt's assignment was then totally dedicated to defense. By that time he DID actually roam the floor outside the key, and I even have it on game film to prove it. Further, I also have gamefilm and player testimonial that Russell and Wilt both had at least a very similar mentality on defense, in that they both actually did not like to leave their zones around the basket, they both would rather camp/protect the basket than step outside. Russell simply had more mobility/quickness so his defensive arc was a bit wider.

[stanlove1111]

:facepalm The posts? What the hell are you talking about? Do you mean the documentary on Bill Russell made by a journalist by the name of Bill Simmons who hates Wilt and throws Wilt under the bus all the time? Regardless of where your getting these quotes it must be understood that many quotes about Wilt Chamberlain (or for a variety of players) can be used in a way that lacks context particularly if used in journalists documentaries trying to paint one player in a better light than another. In Wilt's case particularly, Wilt played his entire career from 1959-1973. A lot of players he played with or against never was on the floor with/against him throughout his entire career, they only saw the first, or latter halves of it and this is a very important detail because Wilt significantly changed the way he played at least 3 times during his career. Also a lot of quotes are chopped down - sometimes players are speaking only about particular seasons or series, not about the whole of ones career. So any quotes about him doing, or not doing things, needs to be taken in context. All I can assure you of is;

*You asserted Wilt "refused" to play the high post and allow players freedom of the lanes - and this is 100% incorrect. His offensive role was actually to play the high-post and pass for at least 3 specific seasons - this was his job under Alex Hannum's coaching years for both Warriors and Philly and Wilt never "refused" co-operation with this though it did take him a while to warm up to Alex in '63-'64. But he came along and In fact, he made it to the NBA Finals, won an NBA title, and lead the league in assists when he played this way.

*You suggested Wilt didn't roam as far as Bill Russell. For the most part, this is true when Russell was active. But keep in mind there is an exception to this towards the end of Wilt's career after Bill and most of his Celtic teammates had all retired during the '72 season and probably in the '73 season where Wilt's assignment was then totally dedicated to defense. By that time he DID actually roam the floor outside the key, and I even have it on game film to prove it. Further, I also have gamefilm and player testimonial that Russell and Wilt both had at least a very similar mentality on defense, in that they both actually did not like to leave their zones around the basket, they both would rather camp/protect the basket than step outside. Russell simply had more mobility/quickness so his defensive arc was a bit wider.

I am talking about the posts on this site about a month ago where numerous players from the time said that wilt would not leave the basket area. I am sure you know exactly what the hell I am talking about. If not look them up. Like I said I will take their word over a guy who watches a few games.


I noticed you didn't ack that wilt himself I believe said he refused play in the high post in 1969 when his coach wanted him to..is this true or not?

So you agree Russell left the basket area more..thank you...

[CavaliersFTW]

I am talking about the posts on this site about a month ago where numerous players from the time said that wilt would not leave the basket area. I am sure you know exactly what the hell I am talking about. If not look them up. Like I said I will take their word over a guy who watches a few games.


I noticed you didn't ack that wilt himself I believe said he refused play in the high post in 1969 when his coach wanted him to..is this true or not?

So you agree Russell left the basket area more..thank you...
Nope, no clue what your talking about. What you said about Wilt refusing to play the high post is straight up not true, like I said at least 3 seasons he played the high post and won an assist title and an NBA title doing so. Show me the quotes, and I'll break them down for you, it's not up to me to back up the claim it's up to you. I'll gladly show you video of Wilt doing exactly what you claimed he "refused" to do - getting praise and acknowledgement from his coach for doing it - and doing it arguably better than any center in NBA history ever did.

[fpliii]

As far as I can tell Wilt was more than willing to play in the high post. The only time I can recall reading about this being an issue (from Wilt, in his 73 autobiography) was under van Breda Koff (who I believe wanted Wilt to clear the lane for Baylor to drive), but I think it's possible that was more so due to his relationship with Wilt and that entire situation (so every little spat was blown out of proportion).

[CavaliersFTW]

As far as I can tell Wilt was more than willing to play in the high post. The only time I can recall reading about this being an issue (from Wilt, in his 73 autobiography) was under van Breda Koff (who I believe wanted Wilt to clear the lane for Baylor to drive), but I think it's possible that was more so due to his relationship with Wilt and that entire situation (so every little spat was blown out of proportion).
In lieu of the 2013 Lakers I'd like to think of Van Breda Koff as the Mike D'Antoni of the 69 Lakers squad, and no Wilt certainly did not co-operate with him and visa versa through most of that season - they even got in a fist fight - they clashed as a player/coach relationship as badly as anyone in history. But stanlove using that season and that specific situation as some sort of measuring tool for assessing how Wilt played throughout the rest of his career would be a mistake. In the three seasons he played that style, Wilt was one of the best high post passing centers, if not THE best high post passing center to ever play the game as demonstrated by his assist #'s and his team success. Like I said, he made it to the Finals twice, won once (breaking records on one of the best teams in history), and won an assist title all while playing as a high-post passing center - opening up the lane for his teammates to make drives and cuts. To say "he refused" to do it and making it seem like that's how his career should be defined is virtually opposite the truth

[RRR3]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Lebron couldnt even with low efficiency

9 50 points game :roll:
Only Kobe has more 50 point games among active players, so not sure why you're laughing :confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

In lieu of the 2013 Lakers I'd like to think of Van Breda Koff as the Mike D'Antoni of the 69 Lakers squad, and no Wilt certainly did not co-operate with him and visa versa through most of that season - they even got in a fist fight - they clashed as a player/coach relationship as badly as anyone in history. But stanlove using that season and that specific situation as some sort of measuring tool for assessing how Wilt played throughout the rest of his career would be a mistake. In the three seasons he played that style, Wilt was one of the best high post passing centers, if not THE best high post passing center to ever play the game as demonstrated by his assist #'s and his team success. Like I said, he made it to the Finals twice, won once (breaking records on one of the best teams in history), and won an assist title all while playing as a high-post passing center - opening up the lane for his teammates to make drives and cuts. To say "he refused" to do it and making it seem like that's how his career should be defined is virtually opposite the truth

Question -- the three seasons being his three under Hannum, correct (I haven't really kept up with thread)?

Anyhow, I completely agree with most of what you said in this post. FWIW Walton for those couple of seasons deserves an HM, perhaps Russell but it's difficult pigeonhole his role on offense; does anyone else come to mind (Kerr, perhaps?)?

[CavaliersFTW]

Question -- the three seasons being his three under Hannum, correct (I haven't really kept up with thread)?

Anyhow, I completely agree with most of what you said in this post. FWIW Walton for those couple of seasons deserves an HM, perhaps Russell but it's difficult pigeonhole his role on offense; does anyone else come to mind (Kerr, perhaps?)?

Yes that's correct, 63-64 Warriors and 66-67 and 67-68 Sixers were seasons where he was instructed to focus on passing off the high-post on offense to allow his teammates to make cuts and drives and score inside. The footage confirms this too. Also, though his role was more varied and his touches more limited on offense by the time, he also rolled into the high post on offense frequently when he was a Laker. But like I said, his offensive duties were more varied and limited at that point due to sharing the offensive load with Baylor and West and having different coaching.

[elementally morale]

jlauber was not as well-spoken and eloquent as this new dude is, and he also wasn't this organiozed with his thoughts. He was a great poster in his own right, but I don't think they are the same.

On another note, in today's league a peak Shaq on 70-75% FT shooting (no heck-a-Shaq) would do the trick.

[stanlove1111]

As far as I can tell Wilt was more than willing to play in the high post. The only time I can recall reading about this being an issue (from Wilt, in his 73 autobiography) was under van Breda Koff (who I believe wanted Wilt to clear the lane for Baylor to drive), but I think it's possible that was more so due to his relationship with Wilt and that entire situation (so every little spat was blown out of proportion).


LOL. So you are saying Wilt just had a problem with it for one season for some strange reason..OK..Every other year he was more then willing but for some odd reason when asked in 1969 he said no..Give me a break..

His reason in 1969 was he was the best rebounder and he wasn't going to give that up to play away from the basket..But I am being told here that he only felt that way one time..Come on..

[stanlove1111]

In lieu of the 2013 Lakers I'd like to think of Van Breda Koff as the Mike D'Antoni of the 69 Lakers squad, and no Wilt certainly did not co-operate with him and visa versa through most of that season - they even got in a fist fight - they clashed as a player/coach relationship as badly as anyone in history. But stanlove using that season and that specific situation as some sort of measuring tool for assessing how Wilt played throughout the rest of his career would be a mistake. In the three seasons he played that style, Wilt was one of the best high post passing centers, if not THE best high post passing center to ever play the game as demonstrated by his assist #'s and his team success. Like I said, he made it to the Finals twice, won once (breaking records on one of the best teams in history), and won an assist title all while playing as a high-post passing center - opening up the lane for his teammates to make drives and cuts. To say "he refused" to do it and making it seem like that's how his career should be defined is virtually opposite the truth

Walton was far an away the best passer from the high post ever. Its not even close. You don't happen to be the guy who post youtube videos of Wilt are you..Thats what I am starting to sense.

[CavaliersFTW]

Walton was far an away the best passer from the high post ever. Its not even close. You don't happen to be the guy who post youtube videos of Wilt are you..Thats what I am starting to sense.
:facepalm phrases like this are reserved for trolls you should know better if your going to try to gain any respect among any of the people who discuss actual basketball on this site :no: so far your off to a bad start.

Yes I'm "that guy". Dispelling ignorance and myths about players from that "era" one clip at a time. Problem?

[CavaliersFTW]

LOL. So you are saying Wilt just had a problem with it for one season for some strange reason..OK..Every other year he was more then willing but for some odd reason when asked in 1969 he said no..Give me a break..

His reason in 1969 was he was the best rebounder and he wasn't going to give that up to play away from the basket..But I am being told here that he only felt that way one time..Come on..
And here it goes, now any time someone tries to tell you something about Wilt that you didn't know or doesn't fit your preconceived notions of him I'm sure you'll be like "you mean to tell me that Wilt ______?" in the same exact condescending manner as if you already knew every thing there was to know about Wilt (especially, of course, if it's something "bad")

Anyone who claims to know anything about Wilt shouldn't be surprised that 1969 was a problem season for Wilt because of Van Breda Koff. Another coach he clashed with was Dolph Schayes but not nearly as badly - Wilt of course wasn't perfect - but my sneaking suspicion is that you know little of what conflicts he actually had with people or why and how that translated to any of his performances on the court. Of the coaches he clashed with Breda Koff was the only one who asked him to play the high post so yes, as UNBELIEVABLE as it must sound, 1969 was the only season Wilt would have had any sort of conflict with playing high-post ball. And it wasn't even the style that was the problem, it was the coach.

[LAZERUSS]

CavsFan has already done an commendable job in this discussion of Wilt's defense, rebounding, and "refusal" to play...but I wil add some of my thoughts.

Now I suspect that most posters here have no clue on what type of player that Jerry Lucas was, but for the purposes of this discussion only, he was likely the best outside shooter of his era. Look up term "Lucas Layup." T

I attended a Knicks-Warrior game in the early 70's, and in the pre-game shoot-around, I witnessed Lucas hit some 20 straight shots from between the circles.

And I won't take the tie to look up the very limited footage that exists on ouTube, but there is at least one, and I believe two, o lucas hitting sweeping hook-shots from behind the FT line. Furthermore, he was a near career 50% shooter in an era that shot about 44%.

In the first half of game one of the '72 Finals, Lucas was swishing shots from the 405 freeway, and he finished that half at 9-11. For the rest of that series, covering four-and-a-half games, he shot 37-81, or .457, including a 5-14 performance in the clinching game five defeat. Why? Because Wilt was repeatedly guarding him as far out as 18+ feet. BTW, Chamberlain also averaged 23 rpg and 7 bpg in that series, including a game five clinching performance of 29 rebounds (there were a total of 106 available rebounds in that game...and the entire NY team had 39), and he also added 8 or 9 blocked shots.

All from a 35 year old Wilt.


Russell the greater rebounder? Even if we accept your plausible theory that Russell played further away from the basket than Wilt did, how do explain Chamberlain holding a career h2h margin of 28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg in their 143 h2h games? Or Wilt outrebounding Russell in over 2/3's of those games. Or Chamberlain outrebounding Russell in all eight of their playof series h2h's?

And Simmons would have you believe that Russell was the greater post-season rebounder, based on his overall 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg margin. However, he somehow forgot to mention that when Russell retired after the 68-69 season, that while he had averaged 24.9 rpg in his post-season career up to that point, and covering Chamberlain's first ten years in the league, Wilt had a post-season average of 26.3 rpg.

Nor will Simmons mention that Wilt had post-season series of rebounding Russellby margins of five, five, and even as high as nine per game. Nor that Wilt had some huge individual margins in their h2h's, as well, including one game o 55-19.


As for Wilt's "refusal" under Van Breda Kolf. No one sacrificed their own offense more than Chamberlain did that season. While West and Baylor continued to put up their normal seasonal averages, Chamberlain's declined dramatically. It got so bad, that at the mid-way point in the season, SI ran article claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Oh, and BTW, the night before that aricle hit the newstands, Wilt hung up a 60 point game and a few nights later he added a 66 point game.

In that post-season, Wilt averaged 13.9 ppg, on .545 shooting, while Baylor, one of the Van Breda Kolfs favorites, averaged 15.4 ppg on .385 shooting.

As a sidenote, the Lakers basically fired Van Breda Kolf after the game seven loss in the Finals, and replaced him with Joe Mullaney. Mullaney's first order of business was to ask Chamberlain to focus on his offense again(after thee yearsof dramatically reducing his shooting.) Guess what? In the first nine games of that season, Wilt was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg (and on .579 shooting.) Meanwhile, in those nine games, West was averaging 30.8 ppg, and Baylor 19.9 ppg. Unfortunately, Chamberlain shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was the never the same offensive player that he had been after that.

[DatAsh]

On offfense Russell would set up at the high post to give his teammates room in the lane..Wilt refused to do that.

Actually, for the majority of the latter half of the decade, Wilt did exactly that. In fact, peak Chamberlain and peak Russell played very similar roles for their teams. Both were defensive anchors that controlled a significant portion of their team's offense by facilitating from the high post. Russell was better at running the break, and Wilt was a much better scorer, but other than that they were pretty similar.

[La Frescobaldi]

I am talking about the posts on this site about a month ago where numerous players from the time said that wilt would not leave the basket area. I am sure you know exactly what the hell I am talking about. If not look them up. Like I said I will take their word over a guy who watches a few games.


I noticed you didn't ack that wilt himself I believe said he refused play in the high post in 1969 when his coach wanted him to..is this true or not?

So you agree Russell left the basket area more..thank you...

I believe, you might be talking about, for example, ThaRegul8ar's brilliant post #24 in this thread:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=254040&page=2

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6963608&postcount=24

**************************

I agree with you completely, Chamberlain's preferred spot was on the low block or even better (if the refs would let him get away with it), parked just inside the dotted ring round the hoop. A one man zone in a way. By nature, Wilt was rim protector and destroyer of men who tried to enter his domain.

That said, I also agree with Cavs and... uhh... He-Who-Has-Been-Brought-Back..... Wilt did indeed play a TON of high post defense. He was absolutely devastating to the Celtic Weave.
They would go into that weave at the top of the key, Sam Jones & Havlicek and Satch or KC, with Russell or Bailey Howell at the elbow, and the other on the block, switching back and forth.

But the Sixers had Luke Jackson, and they had Chet Walker. Men you could trust, you see, to wreck havoc on anything in the general vicinity.

So Chamberlain would go to the free throw line and that weave would just have to move back because he was so long....... and that weave would just go farther... and farther... away... until they just had to abandon it and their play was destroyed.

It was that drill sergeant bark from the Sixers bench that got Chamberlain to go up there. In those hottest minutes, Hannum's voice was a whiplash, a voice to be obeyed, that could be heard all over the arena.

And it is also true, as we all know, that van Breda Kopf got zero respect from Chamberlain and today is widely considered a laughingstock and a dolt.

And as Lazuruss describes, Sharman had Chamberlain blocking those 3 point range shot puts from Jerry Lucas.

I notice also that you are talking mainly about defense, while the other guys talk mainly about where Wilt played on the offensive side of the court.... little apples and oranges going on in this thread, to me both sides are very valid. Chamberlain's game was far more complete than either side of this argument maintains.

[AussieG]

Maybe over a 10 game stretch, but it seems impossible for any NBA player to do it over 82 games. Maybe in the past it would have been easier but NBA intensity basketball saps your energy.. and to have that kind of production and effeciency.. it's like asking a defensive stopper to guard the other teams best player for 48 mins every night without a break.

[The_Yearning]

I thought we got rid of jlauber.

[magic chiongson]

steve blake

[La Frescobaldi]

Maybe over a 10 game stretch, but it seems impossible for any NBA player to do it over 82 games. Maybe in the past it would have been easier but NBA intensity basketball saps your energy.. and to have that kind of production and effeciency.. it's like asking a defensive stopper to guard the other teams best player for 48 mins every night without a break.

look earlier in the thread.... a couple of us have been looking for ANYONE that went for 50.... at ANY level. So far can't find anybody else that ever did it

[Burgz V2]

steph curry was the first that came to my mind

[Straight_Ballin]

If prime AI was given the green light to shoot more back in his prime, he could have done it and on good efficiency also.

Just kidding

[La Frescobaldi]

I'm thinking about this...Pistol Pete Maravich scores 44.5 ppg during 1970 NCAA season...

I think that's the closest one...

EDIT: little research

Hector Campana scores 44.2 ppg in Liga A Argentina - 1990
Oscar Schmidt scores 44.0 ppg in A2 League Italy - 1991
Nikos Galis scores 43.9 ppg in League A Greece - 1981
Hey Iceman!!
It's funny I was watching Bulls playoff game the other day and little Nate Robinson reminded me so much of old Calvin Murphy that I was looking around the Internet for stuff on Murphy.... and i ran across this one:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1916&dat=19830512&id=URBJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kQUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3781,1996783
Little Calvin Murphy, smallest guy to get in the Hall, averaged 48.9ppg on his college freshman team!!
I think that's the closest we've seen to Chamberlain's mark..... But so far as I've found, Wilt is the only guy in history at ANY level to average 50.

[Iceman#44]

Good one, La Frescobaldi!:applause:

I think that's the closest one so far...but i'm thinking about some ex-Nba players who play overseas back in the 80's...

Like i said before, american guard Everage Richardson scored 48.8 ppg in Germany (regional division tournament) if i remember in 2010, and this was the closest one to 50 point mark...but then Calvin Murphy's 48.9 ppg are even closer.

[tmacattack33]

MJ would come the closest. He had 37 ppg on good efficiency.

Next might be Durant.

[La Frescobaldi]

Good one, La Frescobaldi!:applause:

I think that's the closest one so far...but i'm thinking about some ex-Nba players who play overseas back in the 80's...

Like i said before, american guard Everage Richardson scored 48.8 ppg in Germany (regional division tournament) if i remember in 2010, and this was the closest one to 50 point mark...but then Calvin Murphy's 48.9 ppg are even closer.

So actually our little inquiry here seems to be making that '62 season even MORE impressive.

Because as far as we have been able to determine, nobody, at any level, ever, in the history of basketball, has been able to score 50 ppg for a full season. Except for Chamberlain.

Easy high school leagues, European national leagues, college, pros, NBA. 1920s, 1950s, 1980s, 2000s. Any other NBA player who ever suited up at any level. Nobody else ever did it.... but in his day, he did it at the highest level in the world.
Era doesn't matter, size of league doesn't matter, level of play doesn't matter? Just 1 guy has ever done it?

Has anybody got any record of a full season with a higher PPG than Chamberlain's '62 season?

[Psileas]

So actually our little inquiry here seems to be making that '62 season even MORE impressive.

Because as far as we have been able to determine, nobody, at any level, ever, in the history of basketball, has been able to score 50 ppg for a full season. Except for Chamberlain.

Easy high school leagues, European national leagues, college, pros, NBA. 1920s, 1950s, 1980s, 2000s. Any other NBA player who ever suited up at any level. Nobody else ever did it.... but in his day, he did it at the highest level in the world.
Era doesn't matter, size of league doesn't matter, level of play doesn't matter? Just 1 guy has ever done it?

Has anybody got any record of a full season with a higher PPG than Chamberlain's '62 season?

It's worth looking at what some have averaged in the Philippines. I don't know about 50, but I know of some insane productivity going on there at times.

PS. Scratch my uncertainty: Billy Ray Bates DID average 50+ in the Philippines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Ray_Bates

[La Frescobaldi]

It's worth looking at what some have averaged in the Philippines. I don't know about 50, but I know of some insane productivity going on there at times.

PS. Scratch my uncertainty: Billy Ray Bates DID average 50+ in the Philippines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Ray_Bates
cool! so there's 1 so far, in the Phillipines.

[Psileas]

Make it 2, also in the Philippines (in 14 games):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Black

[La Frescobaldi]

Make it 2, also in the Philippines (in 14 games):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Black
14 games that's no kind of mark at all. Dang is that what the other guy did too?
Hardly worth bothering with compared to 50ppg 25 rpg and 48 mpg for 80 darn games is it?

[Psileas]

14 games that's no kind of mark at all. Dang is that what the other guy did too?
Hardly worth bothering with compared to 50ppg 25 rpg and 48 mpg for 80 darn games is it?

Bear in mind though, no other league that I know of consists of anywhere near to the NBA's 82 games. The PBA has a somewhat bizarre setting anyway, a couple of people here should know more about this.

PS. No, Bates played more. Look at the stats included in the article.

[pauk]

In 1985 season (KK Cibona, Euro) Drazen Petrovic averaged 43 PPG and for all his 4 years there he averaged 38 PPG, with personal best of 112 points (most points scored by an individual in a league game) and 62 points, respectively.... Drazen could have easily averaged 50 PPG if he wanted to in any of those Euro League teams, but was i guess busy racking up assists aswell (played alot of PG).

What a shame he didnt come to the NBA earlier, in his peak/prime, he would guaranteed been a ~30 ppg pure shooter in the NBA in the mid/late 80s.

[secund2nun]

I'd say a dominant post player like Shaq would have the best shot at it. Just feed him the ball every single possession in the post.

[secund2nun]

This is the same kind of thing people were saying in 1959. Somebody showed up and changed their reality for them. Point? We don't know what the future holds.

But as far as your exact statement? Yeah, nobody in the league today that could do it. None of the current players are athletic enough to do it.

Just for starters nobody has the stamina to play the kind of minutes you'd have to play to get those kinds of numbers.

No one is scoring 50 PPG efficiently today. Wilt's 50/25 statline was a fake statline against weak talent and a extremely fast pace in no games where no defense was played. If he played today Wilt would average 20 something ppg and top out near 30.

Shaq would get 50+ ppg back then, but in the modern NBA he topped out at just under 30 PPG.

Whenever you have a 50/25 statline you know that the talent level is a joke. It's like putting Adrian Petersen back in HS. He would average 600 rushing yards per game aka fake stats. Or putting a 18 year old in a 7 year old bball league.

50/25 means that Wilt was ahead of his time. It does not mean he is a super man God who can score 50 PPG today, let alone 40 PPG.

[La Frescobaldi]

No one is scoring 50 PPG efficiently today. Wilt's 50/25 statline was a fake statline against weak talent and a extremely fast pace in no games where no defense was played. If he played today Wilt would average 20 something ppg and top out near 30.

Shaq would get 50+ ppg back then, but in the modern NBA he topped out at just under 30 PPG.

Whenever you have a 50/25 statline you know that the talent level is a joke. It's like putting Adrian Petersen back in HS. He would average 600 rushing yards per game aka fake stats. Or putting a 18 year old in a 7 year old bball league.

50/25 means that Wilt was ahead of his time. It does not mean he is a super man God who can score 50 PPG today, let alone 40 PPG.

Dude I get it okay? I've been hearing that line my whole life - and I watched Chamberlain play the second half of his career.
I would bet a lot of money that Shaquille O'Neal could not trade places with Wilt Chamberlain in 1962 and put up those same numbers.A lot of money. Great as Shaq was, I saw enough of Chamberlain before he wrecked his knee to know that Shaq just didn't have a motor like that. Great player, awesome force inside but no way could he show that kind of stamina and no way could Shaq run that much.
Sorry but just no f'ing way.

[secund2nun]

Dude I get it okay? I've been hearing that line my whole life - and I watched Chamberlain play the second half of his career.
I would bet a lot of money that Shaquille O'Neal could not trade places with Wilt Chamberlain in 1962 and put up those same numbers.A lot of money. Great as Shaq was, I saw enough of Chamberlain before he wrecked his knee to know that Shaq just didn't have a motor like that. Great player, awesome force inside but no way could he show that kind of stamina and no way could Shaq run that much.
Sorry but just no f'ing way.


Let's say that Wilt was better than Shaq ( I disagree though), even then what I say still stands. Shaq would then get 45, or 43 PPG back then and Wilt today would get 30-33 PPG. Either way, Wilt's stats back then have to be kept in context.

[La Frescobaldi]

Let's say that Wilt was better than Shaq ( I disagree though), even then what I say still stands. Shaq would then get 45, or 43 PPG back then and Wilt today would get 30-33 PPG. Either way, Wilt's stats back then have to be kept in context.
Yeah. Context.

One very serious context is no other player, anywhere, ever, in the history of basketball did that.
Until you can show me some proof that there has been another athlete that could rebound like that man, let alone score like that.... I'll have to say people are grasping desperately at anything to belittle his accomplishments. And since they can't find any way to do that..... the league must have been too easy.
Since nobody else came within 20 points of him they were all scrubs.
Even though I saw dozens of those guys play later in their careers and they were great.... For that 1 season, they were a joke. Right?

[CavaliersFTW]

Yeah. Context.

One very serious context is no other player, anywhere, ever, in the history of basketball did that.
Until you can show me some proof that there has been another athlete that could rebound like that man, let alone score like that.... I'll have to say people are grasping desperately at anything to belittle his accomplishments. And since they can't find any way to do that..... the league must have been too easy.
Since nobody else came within 20 points of him they were all scrubs.
Even though I saw dozens of those guys play later in their careers and they were great.... For that 1 season, they were a joke. Right?
I guarantee you your arguing with a guy who knows very little about the subject at hand. It seems like his entire argument is based on a stigma and a reputation.

The stigma that Wilt's era must = weak because his stats don't make sense and it's easier to believe that. (actual research and game film study takes WAY too much effort - and is difficult to do in lieu of the limited footage of Wilt's time)

The reputation that Shaq = Most dominant force ever (though, only to the people who write off Wilt's era as weak. This reputation requires the previous stigma to already be believed - as Wilt was clearly the more dominant player)

Nobody who actually has witnessed both eras or takes the time to study the game thoroughly enough to go as far back as Wilt's time would be saying the things he says. A reasonable person in his situation at best should simply say "Well, I haven't seen enough of that era so I won't comment on that". I don't get why people with such limited exposure try to be experts on the subject, heck I've seen as much "footage" as possible and even I know I'm only seeing a scratch of the surface of basketball from that time through a very small window. Knowing how many years and gigabytes of HDD space it has taken to get to this point I doubt he's seen 1/16th of what I've seen about Wilt alone, let alone that entire era and he's acting like he can fairly compare Wilt with Shaq :facepalm

[ClutchOver9000]

Nobody in this day and age. At least not in the NBA. Definitely no perimeter player either...

If I had to pick someone, I think prime Shaq would have the best shot at it.

[jlip]

I don't know if it's been said before, but Wilt averaging 50ppg in '62 was just as shocking and mind boggling to people back in '62 as it is to us today. Nobody was saying, "Well, look at our pace. I understand how Wilt can do that." The truth is, before Wilt entered the league in '59-'60, no player had ever averaged even 30ppg. Most people had no idea that 3 years later somebody was going to average 50. While pace played a role in making Wilt's feat possible, ultimately he just did something that was uniquely legendary and basically unrepeatable even in his era.

[WayOfWade]

I think Kobe tried to at some points. Like the time he had 50+ in 4 straight games. That's not a season, but still dang impressive.

[BlazerRed]

Kevin Durant