If Lebron wins another title is there any argument that Kobe is still better?

[Electric Slide]

lets say that lebron wins another finals and finals mvp which is likely.would there honestly be an argument as to kobe being ahead of Lebron in the GOAT list?

Kobe would have a lot less MVPs, equal amount of rings as the #1, and clearly a worse player in terms of stats and ability wise.

what exactly would kobe's argument be?

[steve franchise]

5 rings > 2

[RagaZ]

How can you support Celtics and defend LeBrick

[L8kersfan222]

How can you support Celtics and defend LeBrick


April 2013 sock puppet

[Crafty]

The argument will be 5>2.
I think it's the only one valid.

[K Xerxes]

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVPs, but he was an integral player in the '01 and '02 rings. Without Kobe playing like he did in those two years, LA would not have sniffed a title. He only won one ring as a legitimate role player, not three.

I'll put LeBron in the conversation with another ring and Finals MVP, but it won't be enough just as yet. Another one should do it though.

[FiveRings]

How about Lebron has three all star starters? The best SF in the game. The best non-injured SG in the game. Probably the best PF in the game who brought his team to the playoffs as first option. And on top of all of that he now has the best three point shooter on his team.

A win is a win when it comes to titles, but Kobe needed far less to win. Comparing Pau Gasol to Wade (zero playoff wins without Kobe vs Wade FMVP without Bron) and Lamar Odom to Bosh (Odom failed as Kobe's second option while Bosh led his team to playoffs as first option) is laughable.

Not to say that alone makes Kobe better, but it makes what he's done FAR more impressive thus far (5 vs 2, FMVPs with far less help).

Lebron is a beast and I give him a very good chance of passing Kobe when it's all said and done but that talk is quite premature imo.

At this time, given the same supporting casts, I'd draft prime Kobe over prime Bron because of Kobe's superior skill and clutchness, and because we know he can win without another FMVP playing next to him. We know he can win with a second option who's never won a playoff game without him. And a third option who failed misserably as second option and was better to have coming off the bench.

EDIT- One more thing. Shaq won the FMVPs playing with Kobe... Well, are Lebron fans saying LBJ would have won the FMVPs over Shaq? He wouldn't have. Shaq was winning those unless he was perhaps playing with MJ himself, and even then he still might have won them given the quality of centres he matched up with.

[Nash]

Lebron never had the luxury of being drafted to the team with the most dominant force ever and get 3 rings that way in his first 8 years. Neither did Jordan or any other superstar for that matter(wonder how many rings Jordan would have had if he had someone like Shaq his first 8 years). You can't hold the 3 Shaq rings against Lebron because he never actually had the chance to play 2nd option behind someone like Shaq. If he did and failed, you could use that argument.

What you can compare fair though is their time as 1st option, their personal accolades and their numbers and you'd clearly see that Lebron is better.

[FiveRings]

You can't hold the 3 Shaq rings against Lebron because he never actually had the chance to play 2nd option behind someone like Shaq. If he did and failed, you could use that argument.

But it's fair to use Shaq's 3 FMVPs against Kobe when arguing Kobe vs Bron? Would Lebron have won those over Shaq given the huge mismatches Shaq had? Hell no.

[NLZ]

Lebron never had the luxury of being drafted to the team with the most dominant force ever and get 3 rings that way in his first 8 years. Neither did Jordan or any other superstar for that matter(wonder how many rings Jordan would have had if he had someone like Shaq his first 8 years). You can't hold the 3 Shaq rings against Lebron because he never actually had the chance to play 2nd option behind someone like Shaq. If he did and failed, you could use that argument.

What you can compare fair though is their time as 1st option, their personal accolades and their numbers and you'd clearly see that Lebron is better.
Ok, and at the same time Kobe didn't have as many chances as LeBron as the "#1 option", it goes both ways....can't discredit Kobe for that. LeBron wouldn't have been the Finals MVP playing alongside Shaq either.

[miles berg]

Chris Bosh is a loooooong ways from the best PF in the NBA.

Settle down.

[diamenz]

it really depends on the criteria of the argument - it's not simple. kobe has the better offensive arsenal - lebron's offensive game is too linear to argue with kobe's.

i'd say lebron has kobe beat on both on-ball and help defense.

as far as runnig the offense as a team, lebron obviously takes the cak.

overall though, as far as being remembered as the better player, i'm saying kobe.

[FiveRings]

Chris Bosh is a loooooong ways from the best PF in the NBA.

Settle down.
That's easy to say now that he's 3rd option behind two ball dominant superstars, and isn't in the position to rebound like he used to since he's being used as a floor spacer who stays out of Bron's way around the hoop.

Put any PF next to Wade and Bron and their stats will dip in a similar fashion.

[Nash]

But it's fair to use Shaq's 3 FMVPs against Kobe when arguing Kobe vs Bron? Would Lebron have won those over Shaq given the huge mismatches Shaq had? Hell no.
We're trying to make a fair comparison of the two. Kobe drove a Ferrari his first 8 years with Shaq while Lebron wasn't even close to it. The race obviously isn't fair. If Kobe got drafted to Charlotte as he initially was, there would be no 3 extra rings.

And championship argument to the side, Kobe has never played on the level Lebron is doing at right now.

[Element]

What's LeBron without MIA's world class spacing? Ffs they even have a floor spacer im Bosh at the god fckn C position

LeBron will be 11/12 if he replicates last year's playoffs. He lacks the longevity and rings/finals appearances to be over Kobe. Make it three straight and he's over him. Not this year until he goes Finals 00 Shaq for the entire postseason

[Ne 1]

and clearly a worse player in terms of stats and ability wise.


Kobe has a more polished and refined game. He can score on you offensively in nearly every way possible and do it consistently.

He has the better offensive game, better jumper, better post game, better on ball defense, more clutch, better overall skill set, offensive prowess, game management, maturity, killer instinct, fundamentals, foot work etc. etc. His work ethic, drive, hunger, determination, dedication to the game, desire and will to win is unmatched. Oh, and not to mention he's a 5x champion.

Kobe is pure finesse, skill and technique, the shooting guard version of Duncan. LeBron relies almost solely on his athleticism. His speed, strength, jumping ability are what makes him a great player. But just wait until LeBron reaches his 30s and looses his athleticism. He'll still be a good player, no doubt, but I doubt he'll be the same dominant force. Sort of reminds me of Vince Carter, how he was amazing when he had athleticism and when he got older he wasn't what he used to be.

Also I do think it's rightfully justified if people admire someone who dedicated time to develop their skills and work around their short-comings more than someone who just cannot be stopped because they are a 6'8 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.

[K Xerxes]

How about Lebron has three all star starters? The best SF in the game. The best non-injured SG in the game. Probably the best PF in the game who brought his team to the playoffs as first option. And on top of all of that he now has the best three point shooter on his team.

A win is a win when it comes to titles, but Kobe needed far less to win. Comparing Pau Gasol to Wade (zero playoff wins without Kobe vs Wade FMVP without Bron) and Lamar Odom to Bosh (Odom failed as Kobe's second option while Bosh led his team to playoffs as first option) is laughable.

How about Kobe had arguably the best coach of all time in his championship years? I don't understand why everyone chooses to neglect to mention one of the most important aspects of championship teams so consistently.

Yes, LeBron played with two other all-stars, but exactly how much help did Wade and Bosh give LeBron throughout the playoffs? Bosh missed the Indiana and Boston series. Wade was hobbled throughout and the only great performances I remember seeing from him was the last two games against Indiana. It was LeBron that was great every game. It was LeBron that put in a 40-18-9 performance 2-1 against Indiana, and he was the one that helped Wade get going (by Wade's admission). It was LeBron who decimated the Celtics in game 6 with an all time great performance (that was probably as close as you'll get to a one man team, and he effectively finished off that game 6 in the three quarters). He was the focus of the finals and he produced there, including a triple double to cap off the series.

It was LeBron that shouldered the weight all the way and in the finals. You can mention how Gasol has zero playoff wins without Kobe, but what happened in that game 7 against the Celtics in 2010? Who was a major part in dragging that team across the line when Kobe jacked up 24 shots and only made 6?

Every winner needs help, but LeBron won last year with less help than I remember some previous champions winning. Repeating 'he played with a former FMVP and a top 5 PF' doesn't indicate what actually happened in the playoffs: Wade and Bosh didn't produce what they were fully capable of doing (from injury) and it was ultimately left to LeBron to carry the burden. Which he did.

[Quintilianus]

He needs to have 4 rings to catch-up to kobe or duncan.
To me he's still not top 10 with two rings, I just don't see who he could replace with only having 2.

[Ne 1]

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVPs, but he was an integral player in the '01 and '02 rings. Without Kobe playing like he did in those two years, LA would not have sniffed a title. He only won one ring as a legitimate role player, not three.

I'll put LeBron in the conversation with another ring and Finals MVP, but it won't be enough just as yet. Another one should do it though.

Not only was he an integral player in '01 and '02, lot of people considered him to be the second best player in the league those years. He wasn't at the same level in '00, but I wouldn't say he was a role player, he was still a top 10 player and I'd say he was the best SG that year. Not to mention '00 was one of Kobe's peak defensive seasons (top 5 in DPOY voting) and he stepped up in huge moments in the playoffs.

Also let's look at the fact that Kobe won on his terms and put pressure on his team to make moves, not just (for example) going to the Spurs as a FA to stack the Western Conference and avoid Duncan because he thinks the issue is simply winning rings, not competing for rings. LeBron's mindset is "I need this ring to be considered great, what's the easiest way to get it" not "I want to rip your heart out and prove I'm the best".

[Magic 32]

Kobe had the luxury of playing with Shaq for 8 years, but he was a puppy for half of them. Lebron is playing on the deepest and most talented of this era, and he is doing it in his prime, forcing his two co-stars to play second fiddle (can't function as a second option).

Lebron is just as lucky as Kobe (if not more).

[stanlove1111]

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVPs, but he was an integral player in the '01 and '02 rings. Without Kobe playing like he did in those two years, LA would not have sniffed a title. He only won one ring as a legitimate role player, not three.

I'll put LeBron in the conversation with another ring and Finals MVP, but it won't be enough just as yet. Another one should do it though.


Lebron has already proven that he is a better player then Kobe ever was. What Lebron did with Cleveland by challenging almost every year on an awful team was just as impressive if not more then what Kobe did with Shaq. Switch their teams during their career and Lebron has more titles then Kobe does and Kobe doesn't challenge at all with the Cavs..We saw what happned in LA when he wasn't surrounded by great talent.


The habbit on this board of putting so much weight on fmvp needs to go away. We know what Lebron is to the Heat and how good Lebron is..If Wade has a great finals and Lebron steps back and lets Wade take over that doesn't change anything at all..I can't believe people even post stuff like this over and over..

The question was about who is better not who is perceived to be better by people who don't know much about basketball and only look at things like titles and fmvps.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think so :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

That's easy to say now that he's 3rd option behind two ball dominant superstars, and isn't in the position to rebound like he used to since he's being used as a floor spacer who stays out of Bron's way around the hoop.

Put any PF next to Wade and Bron and their stats will dip in a similar fashion.
this guy's argument and his username shut it down :pimp:

[K Xerxes]

Also let's look at the fact that Kobe won on his terms and put pressure on his team to make moves, not just (for example) going to the Spurs as a FA to stack the Western Conference and avoid Duncan because he thinks the issue is simply winning rings, not competing for rings. LeBron's mindset is "I need this ring to be considered great, what's the easiest way to get it" not "I want to rip your heart out and prove I'm the best".

Do I really have to talk about the difference between LA and Cleveland? The dfference between the history or legacy? The difference between the ownership? The difference between the coaches?

I will never compare the situations Kobe and LeBron had because I don't know what Kobe would have done after seven years in Cleveland. However, what I see now is that LeBron is on his path to doing what he came in the NBA to do: win rings. Does he have help? Sure. The current Miami team is designed to make him as successful as he can be. But he proved to me in last years playoffs that he can produce when the situation calls for it and when his star team mates are not in the best condition or position to help their team win.

[FiveRings]

How about Kobe had arguably the best coach of all time in his championship years? I don't understand why everyone chooses to neglect to mention one of the most important aspects of championship teams so consistently.
Phil is one of the GOATs, but no matter how good a coach is, having a great coach is not the same as having another former FMVP, superstar teammate. For instance, Kobe and Shaq with a different coach wouldn't have much of an issue taking care of Kobe - Pau - Odom with Phil coaching them on the sidelines. Superstars are just simply more important than coaches.


Yes, LeBron played with two other all-stars, but exactly how much help did Wade and Bosh give LeBron throughout the playoffs? Bosh missed the Indiana and Boston series. Wade was hobbled throughout and the only great performances I remember seeing from him was the last two games against Indiana. It was LeBron that was great every game. It was LeBron that put in a 40-18-9 performance 2-1 against Indiana, and he was the one that helped Wade get going (by Wade's admission). It was LeBron who decimated the Celtics in game 6 with an all time great performance (that was probably as close as you'll get to a one man team, and he effectively finished off that game 6 in the three quarters). He was the focus of the finals and he produced there, including a triple double to cap off the series.
Lebron was fantastic. There is no denying that. He's one of my top five favourite players to watch and he's a beast. He had some classic performances against Indi and Boston, but let's not act like it was a one man show. Lebron was far and away the best player in the Finals, but so was Kobe with his FMVPs. Wade and Bosh played well in the Finals, and the roleplayers stepped up big time. Did Wade have similar stats to when he was FMVP? No, but he showed the year before against Dallas that he still could, and in 2012 he let Lebron take over the show so he wasn't going to be as active in the playoffs as he had been in the past. There's only one ball.

No matter how you look at it, Lebron still went and joined another top three player's (at the time) team, and threw a celebration bragging about how easy it's going to be before they even played a game. Talking about how even Pat Riley could suit up and they'd still win easily. This was all out of Lebron's own mouth. Lebron wanted guaranteed championships and he got them. They have it at least as easy as Kobe and Shaq had it on the Lakers. Having Kobe and Shaq on one team is just unfair, the same as having Bron, Wade, and Bosh is unfair to the rest of the league. I don't think Kobe's first 3 mean as much as his last two, and I see Lebron's rings with Wade as the same as Kobe and Shaq's rings with eachother. We knew they were going to win before they even played.


It was LeBron that shouldered the weight all the way and in the finals. You can mention how Gasol has zero playoff wins without Kobe, but what happened in that game 7 against the Celtics in 2010? Who was a major part in dragging that team across the line when Kobe jacked up 24 shots and only made 6?
Pau Gasol was extremely important in the Finals, for sure. He's my second favourite player in the league and I didn't mean to put him down. I just meant to say he's never been a top three player in the league, former FMVP like D-Wade has been. There's always been a big gap between Wade and Gasol.


Every winner needs help.
Absolutley they do. And Lebron can win with more help than Kobe and yet still be better. Pippen and Rodman was better help than Pau and Odom, but Kobe still isn't close to Jordan. MJ won 6 out of 6 though. I just find it ridiculous that those like Pauk are saying Lebron's already ahead of Kobe career wise when he only has one ring. Isn't the whole point of the sport to win championships? Lebron has only accomplished one fifth as much as Kobe in reaching the ultimate goal of the sport, yet Bron's career is better with only one or even two rings? I don't understand this thinking at all. How about we wait until Bron gets even close to Kobe's title count before we start looking at if he's better career wise?

[chosen_wun]

I say three rings makes it undebatable.

[stanlove1111]

Kobe only has 2 Finals MVPs, but he was an integral player in the '01 and '02 rings. Without Kobe playing like he did in those two years, LA would not have sniffed a title. He only won one ring as a legitimate role player, not three.

I'll put LeBron in the conversation with another ring and Finals MVP, but it won't be enough just as yet. Another one should do it though.


This is such a simplistic argument..Again WHY do you people feel the need to make so much out of a finals mvp award..This is a new thing and its out of control.

One more time if Miami makes it to the finals this year and we all know Lebron is easily their best player, but Wade goes off in the finals and Lebron steps back and lets him like a great player would, do you seriously hold that against Lebron? I don't even get that kind of thinking..

Here is how someone who knows bball would look at that..The would say Lebron stepping back is a plausfor him and shows one more side of his greatness because we all know a selfish player like Kobe wouldn't dod this and I twould hurt his team.

Please people stop the simplistic arguments like not putting numbers of titles into context..

[stanlove1111]

We're trying to make a fair comparison of the two. Kobe drove a Ferrari his first 8 years with Shaq while Lebron wasn't even close to it. The race obviously isn't fair. If Kobe got drafted to Charlotte as he initially was, there would be no 3 extra rings.

And championship argument to the side, Kobe has never played on the level Lebron is doing at right now.


Exactly..Not sure why people can't grasp this.

[clutch18]

Lebron needs 3 FMVP's before its debatable

[AussieG]

The argument will be 5>2.
I think it's the only one valid.
I maintain that LeBron in his best season has been BETTER than Kobe has ever been in any one season.

And I maintain that Kobe fans cling to the rings as a way of judging because that's all they got. Without that.. they got nothing.

LeBron is a better overall player.. but Kobe is older and has had more success. He's in better shape at this stage in his career, than LeBron will be at his age.. and has been playing for many years. He's also got more killer instinct and more of a (selfish) leader.

But LeBron is a better overall player. And when it's all said and done, LeBron might have 4 or 5 rings.

But in their peak.. 1 season vs 1 season.. I don't see how Kobe is better.

There are scrubs that have more rings than LeBron but it doesn't mean they are better.

[Heavincent]

We're trying to make a fair comparison of the two. Kobe drove a Ferrari his first 8 years with Shaq while Lebron wasn't even close to it. The race obviously isn't fair. If Kobe got drafted to Charlotte as he initially was, there would be no 3 extra rings.

And championship argument to the side, Kobe has never played on the level Lebron is doing at right now.

:roll:

So stupid.

[Shepseskaf]

5 rings > 2
Not really.

4 MVPs > 1 MVP

Further thought:

Kobe barely made it into the playoffs with multiple HoF teammates. Do you think he could have lifted those Cleveland teams to the levels that LeBron did?

I seriously doubt it.

[livinglegend]

He s already better.

[Heavincent]

Not really.

4 MVPs > 1 MVP


Media awards > championships?

[chosen_wun]

I maintain that LeBron in his best season has been BETTER than Kobe has ever been in any one season.

And I maintain that Kobe fans cling to the rings as a way of judging because that's all they got. Without that.. they got nothing.

LeBron is a better overall player.. but Kobe is older and has had more success. He's in better shape at this stage in his career, than LeBron will be at his age.. and has been playing for many years. He's also got more killer instinct and more of a (selfish) leader.

But LeBron is a better overall player. And when it's all said and done, LeBron might have 4 or 5 rings.

But in their peak.. 1 season vs 1 season.. I don't see how Kobe is better.

There are scrubs that have more rings than LeBron but it doesn't mean they are better.Wow there are actually rational posters on this site ? perhaps there is hope for good basketball discussion after all...:wtf:

[Shepseskaf]

Media awards > championships?
Well, the MVP is supposed to be given to the Most Valuable Player, right? At times it has been devalued, but it clearly shows that LBJ has had more dominant seasons than Kobe -- otherwise Kobe would have more MVPs.

Unless you want to make the laughable argument that the media is biased against Kobe?

Not to mention that Kobe only has two championships as "the man", and only one in which he was consistently dominant. Gasol carried him in the 2010 'chip.

[PJR]

Media awards > championships?

Championships are personal acccolades, and not accomplishments of an entire team/organization?

Oh.

The reality is LeBron has ALWAYS been better than Kobe. This much was evident in his tenure in Cleveland. Winning 120 games in two years, with Mo Williams as his next best player. He took those teams as far as they could go, and I don't believe Bryant could replicate that situation given the same circumstance. As a matter of fact, he would never even play in Cleveland in the first place.


Seriously, LeBron at 19 ****ing years old was putting up 27/7/7. Kobe was Eddie Jones's backup. :oldlol:

LeBron has always been better than Kobe. They're both magnificent players, but there isn't a question who is better, and who will be regarded as better when both of their careers conclude.

[WindmiLL]

blahblah


How about you tell me right now if Lebron right now is better than Kobe ever was? Career achievements aside. If your answer is no then the debate is pretty much over.

I this thread all those Kobe d!ckriders are trying to make themselves look pretty objective and rational but the truth is that even if Lebron would win 10 chips and 10 FMVP's in a row (not saying it's going to happen, just an irrational example for irrational posters) those Kobe lickers would still see Kobe as a better player and put him above Lebron in the all time list. It's just stupid to continue this debate in thread full of Kobe worshipers.

And @ Ne 1, yes, yes Lebron is all athleticism and no skill, he's next Igoudala(even though probably 10 times better as a player, strange??) we heard this before..... :facepalm

[UnbiasedGuy]

11 > 7 (horry my niggah) > 6 > 5 = 5 (fisher) > 2
:lol :lol

[unbreakable]

Lebron needs 3 before the discussion gets serious... till then 2 + 1.8 (what kobe gets from being with Shaq) >>>>> 3 (or 2 if lebron gets 2 this year)

[TylerOO]

LeBrons already ranked higher by most rational fans.

[stanlove1111]

Lebron needs 3 FMVP's before its debatable


This stupid argument again? This is the most simplistic non thinking argument I can think of.

So in your world if player A dominates the first 4 rounds of the playoffs but one of his teammates steps up in the finals and player A comes in second in fmvp votes then he should not be considered better then player B if player B is the 2nd best player on his team for the first 4 rounds but is the best player on his team in the finals. This is hat you are actually saying with putting so much weight on the fmvp award..Its a ridiculous argument and this site is infested with this sillyness.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

5 rings > 2

5 > 1.5

[leMVP]

No need for this comparisons, LeBron will pass kobe next year, then set his goal on the no.23, he's trying to be GOAT not to be compared to someone who can't even win playing with argubaly 3 HoFs.

[tazb]

LeBron will have two rings as the leader of his team, Kobe has two rings (should be one but **** it) as the leader of his team. LeBron has 4 MVPs and Kobe only has 1. LeBron's stats at the age of 28 shits on Kobe at age 28. So yea, I'd say there's no argument.

[FiveRings]

How about you tell me right now if Lebron right now is better than Kobe ever was? Career achievements aside. If your answer is no then the debate is pretty much over.
Can't say that he is. I'm not going to say Kobe's clearly better either. They play different positions and are very different players so it's hard to judge. It's far too early to say Bron is clearly better, but if his play merits it I will admit Lebron is better a few years from now. Kobe is my favourite player and I have no problem saying he isn't close to MJ.

Acting like we know Lebron is going to 4 peat or 5 peat is just speculation right now. He may very well lose a couple more times in the finals, and that matters, especially having a team so stacked. Let's wait and see what happens before saying he's had a better career than someone who has accomplished five times as much as him when it comes to the ultimate goal of the sport.

Given similar supporting casts, I'd put my money on Kobe. Prime Kobe, Pippen, and Gasol is probably beating prime Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. These three starting All Stars did lose to a team with only one star player, so I think Kobe, Pippen, and Gasol would give them a run for their money.

[chosen_wun]

It doesn't work like that ...

Just saying "5>1" is not an intelligent way to compare winning, you need context. You gotta compare Kobe as the man vs. LeBron as the man, and if that is a toss up THEN you go to Kobe's other 3 rings he got with Shaq, which would give Kobe the edge over LeBron (for now).

[retaxis]

Lets be real put Lebron on Lakers his whole career and Kobe on cavs Lebron prob have 5 (4 with Shaq and Lakers bring in Pau-Odom-Bynum for Lebron to feed em)by mid prime.... and Kobe would be called TMAC's b1tch (love Kobe but boy you know its true).

I trust in the MVP in evaluating real effect and talent and 4>1. Any superstar who played with Prime Shaq and greatest front court in the triple tandem (gasol-Odom-Bynum) gonna win a lot of championships. Put MJ, Bird, Magic on any of those teams they going to beast 6+ no worries by this point. Kobe is a good player but he was gifted with a better situation.

[Rondo]

5 rings > 2

Robert Horry > Kobe Bryant?

[Nash]

Here is one thing many people seem to forget. Kobe has been in the league for 17 years and in those years he has had star teammates in 15 of them. Lebron has on the other hand only had 3 seasons with star teammates and if he wins this season he's already going to have as many FMVP's as Kobe.

[retaxis]

Here is one thing many people seem to forget. Kobe has been in the league for 17 years and in those years he has had star teammates in 15 of them. Lebron has on the other hand only had 3 seasons with star teammates and if he wins this season he's already going to have as many FMVP's as Kobe.
Exactly this is the exact reason why Michael Jordan is loved because he didn't come out gifted with anything he played hard and eventually all stars realised 'hey be good to play with him'. Kobe was my 2nd fav player after shaq between 98-06 but he was always like that kid living in the best neighbourhood spoon fed with the best e.g. Shaq, Phil Jackson, fantastic role players, and even Malone & Payton later on (man was i mad at Kobe when he screwed it up that year).

[Element]

Only on the internet lol

[The Choken One]

Kobe is and would still be the better player.

LeBron is left a 66 win team to play with 2 other superstars to get his rings. This diminishes his accomplishments greatly in the eyes of anyone who understands historical basketball. Teaming up with a top 3 n top 10 player? Talk about taking the easy way out, and the best part? His quote about wanting to play and beat the best. :roll: :roll: :roll:

LeBron career wise will finish on top of Kobe when it is all said and done, but he won't beat MJ, Bird, Magic, KAJ or Duncan. I'm not even favoring in Russel n Wilt...

Posted from my iPhone...so some sentences might not make total sense. Spellcheck is a helluva drug.

[The Iron Fist]

lets say that lebron wins another finals and finals mvp which is likely.would there honestly be an argument as to kobe being ahead of Lebron in the GOAT list?

Kobe would have a lot less MVPs, equal amount of rings as the #1, and clearly a worse player in terms of stats and ability wise.

what exactly would kobe's argument be?
Never got swept in finals.
Never had a losing record in finals.
Never had a ppg that was less than a sixth man.
Never had the opportunity to face 6 .500 or less teams in playoffs.
etc
etc

[The Iron Fist]

Lebron never had the luxury of being drafted to the team with the most dominant force ever and get 3 rings that way in his first 8 years. Neither did Jordan or any other superstar for that matter(wonder how many rings Jordan would have had if he had someone like Shaq his first 8 years). You can't hold the 3 Shaq rings against Lebron because he never actually had the chance to play 2nd option behind someone like Shaq. If he did and failed, you could use that argument.

What you can compare fair though is their time as 1st option, their personal accolades and their numbers and you'd clearly see that Lebron is better.

:biggums:
Kobe was drafted to Charlotte.

[The Iron Fist]

Do I really have to talk about the difference between LA and Cleveland? The dfference between the history or legacy? The difference between the ownership? The difference between the coaches?

I will never compare the situations Kobe and LeBron had because I don't know what Kobe would have done after seven years in Cleveland. However, what I see now is that LeBron is on his path to doing what he came in the NBA to do: win rings. Does he have help? Sure. The current Miami team is designed to make him as successful as he can be. But he proved to me in last years playoffs that he can produce when the situation calls for it and when his star team mates are not in the best condition or position to help their team win.
Multiple scoring titles, MVPs, Finals appearances and at the very, very least one title.

[dunksby]

Kobe has the longevity argument locked up until we see LeBron in his 15th+ season and after. Once we see LeBron still beastin well late into his career then we can talk.

[retaxis]

Kobe is and would still be the better player.

LeBron is left a 66 win team to play with 2 other superstars to get his rings. This diminishes his accomplishments greatly in the eyes of anyone who understands historical basketball. Teaming up with a top 3 n top 10 player? Talk about taking the easy way out, and the best part? His quote about wanting to play and beat the best. :roll: :roll: :roll:

LeBron career wise will finish on top of Kobe when it is all said and done, but he won't beat MJ, Bird, Magic, KAJ or Duncan. I'm not even favoring in Russel n Wilt...

Posted from my iPhone...so some sentences might not make total sense. Spellcheck is a helluva drug.
Man Lebron cavs was a regular season team. Lebron had awesome numbers in the playoffs but they played the same in the regular and PO. In Miami you can see they play differently. Cavs had no stars other then lebron that can take it a gear or two higher in the PO

[The Iron Fist]

Robert Horry > Kobe Bryant?
How many of those teams was Horry considered the driving force of the team?

[truhooper]

He s already better.

:cheers:

[Magic 32]

What is more of a luxury?

- Getting to play on a championshlip level team in your late teens and early 20's.

- Or playing on the greatest team of your era in your absolute prime?

Kobe had 3 years like that (08-10). He won 2 out of 3. Lebron is going to get 5 or 6 of those kinds of years.

Who is really lucky here?

[lpublic_enemyl]

to me if bron wins 3 titles ppl would view him better than kobes all-time, especially if he 3peats. IMO he's a better overall player than kobe right now.

[willds09]

Lebron can have 5 titles and still won't be better than kobe:roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

He needs to have 4 rings to catch-up to kobe or duncan.
To me he's still not top 10 with two rings, I just don't see who he could replace with only having 2.

He would have as many rings as Hakeem, far more MVP's than him, and more seasons of dominant level play, as well as a comparable/superior peak. How does that not make him equal to/better than Hakeem, whom people generally rank at #9-10?

[dh144498]

lets say that lebron wins another finals and finals mvp which is likely.would there honestly be an argument as to kobe being ahead of Lebron in the GOAT list?

Kobe would have a lot less MVPs, equal amount of rings as the #1, and clearly a worse player in terms of stats and ability wise.

what exactly would kobe's argument be?

you aren't a celtics fan. You are just another lebron stan's sock puppet account...

:coleman:

[ripthekik]

He would have as many rings as Hakeem, far more MVP's than him, and more seasons of dominant level play, as well as a comparable/superior peak. How does that not make him equal to/better than Hakeem, whom people generally rank at #9-10?
Because Lebron was only able to win a ring by having the most stacked team in the league.

Look at hakeem and how he did it. How many all stars did he have in his team?

Lebron will need at least 3 FMVP's to tie or pass Hakeem.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Because Lebron was only able to win a ring by having the most stacked team in the league.

Look at hakeem and how he did it. How many all stars did he have in his team?

Lebron will need at least 3 FMVP's to tie or pass Hakeem.

His greater number of dominant seasons, more seasons as the best player in the league, and far more MVP's would do make him equal or better than Hakeem in terms of all-time ranking if he wins one more title. He doesn't need two more.

[GrapeApe]

LeBron is in the middle of his career. Barring injury or a Jordanesque surprise retirement he'll be a dominant player well into his 30's. He will likely surpass Kobe eventually, but not after this season. To discredit Kobe's first 3 titles is foolish, as is discrediting LeBron for titles he wins with the Heat. I'm not saying LeBron needs 5 rings to catch Kobe. An MVP sweep and a championship this year puts him very close, but the overall body of work would still favor Kobe IMO.

[UnbiasedGuy]

LeBron is in the middle of his career. Barring injury or a Jordanesque surprise retirement he'll be a dominant player well into his 30's. He will likely surpass Kobe eventually, but not after this season. To discredit Kobe's first 3 titles is foolish, as is discrediting LeBron for titles he wins with the Heat. I'm not saying LeBron needs 5 rings to catch Kobe. An MVP sweep and a championship this year puts him very close, but the overall body of work would still favor Kobe IMO.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

april 2013 :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

5 rings > 2

That's more of a testament to Shaq's greatness and dominance than a commentary of the Lebron vs Kobe argument. That'd be like saying John Havlicek > Kobe because 8 rings>5 rings.

Besides, IMO no version of Kobe has ever been as good as Lebron has been the past 4 years or so.

[Magic 32]

That's more of a testament to Shaq's greatness and dominance than a commentary of the Lebron vs Kobe argument. That'd be like saying John Havlicek > Kobe because 8 rings>5 rings.

Besides, IMO no version of Kobe has ever been as good as Lebron has been the past 4 years or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpArN4LbTI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdhA41wgms

Back to back road games.....93 points, 26 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals, 2 blocks.

22 years old.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpArN4LbTI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCdhA41wgms

Back to back road games.....93 points, 26 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals, 2 blocks.

22 years old.

Nice 2 game stretch... what is your point though? :confusedshrug:

[Unstoppabull]

Yes there is. Kobe has still played longer than LeBron. LeBron's time will come but to belittle Kobe right now is just ignorant.

[Magic 32]

Nice 2 game stretch... what is your point though? :confusedshrug:

Nice! lol Try all-time great.

30 pts average on the road in 2001.

[GoSpursGo1984]

That's more of a testament to Shaq's greatness and dominance than a commentary of the Lebron vs Kobe argument. That'd be like saying John Havlicek > Kobe because 8 rings>5 rings.

Besides, IMO no version of Kobe has ever been as good as Lebron has been the past 4 years or so.

That Kobe was just as important as Shaq in the Lakers winning especially since Shaq was not great at the line. Lebron has been playing great the last couple of years but his play is getting a little bit overrated it is great but not historically great.

[DonDadda59]

That Kobe was just as important as Shaq in the Lakers winning

:oldlol: No

I actually watched basketball then, and no... absolutely not. Nice try though.

[Psycho]

Yes, 1 rape > 0 rape. Checkmate scrubs.

[GoSpursGo1984]

:oldlol: No

I actually watched basketball then, and no... absolutely not. Nice try though.

Lets see shaq win those championships without kobe if kobe is so not important. Kobe hit key shots and made free throw shots when it counted.

[KyleKong]

5 rings > 2

Bill Russel > Robert Horry > Steve Kerr = Kobe?

[KOBE143]

Kobe looks alone destroyed LeBron chance of surpassing him so there's really no argument for LeBron to end up better over the handsome Mamba..

[Shepseskaf]

Lets see shaq win those championships without kobe if kobe is so not important. Kobe hit key shots and made free throw shots when it counted.
Another elite SG could have done pretty much the same thing that Kobe did -- or, at least close to it.

Shaq was irreplaceable those championship teams, Kobe was not.

[Ne 1]

Lets see shaq win those championships without kobe if kobe is so not important. Kobe hit key shots and made free throw shots when it counted.

This is another interesting point that isn't often examined. Yes, Kobe was generally "plan B" throughout the game as far as scoring goes. However in the 4th quarter, he often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" if Phil sat Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were supposedly riding the coattails of other players asked to take over so consistently?

[Ne 1]

Another elite SG could have done pretty much the same thing that Kobe did -- or, at least close to it.

Shaq was irreplaceable those championship teams, Kobe was not.

No SG could replace Kobe especially in 2001 and have the Lakers dominate in similar fashion.

Shaq needed Kobe for the 3 peat just like Kobe needed Gasol to win back-to-back titles. It's a team game, if winning championships was t premier star in the league that the Lakers became a great team. Those 3 championships belong to Kobe as much as they belong to Shaq, anyone with a working brain cell knows that. Even Jerry West said that people who think Kobe needed to win one without Shaq to prove himself are stupid.

[Nick Young]

Kobe will still be 3 rings better:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

LBJ needed to play in the weak east as well as a top 5 PF and the second best shooting guard in the NBA to win a title.

Mamba won all his titles by coming out of the west.


Also Lebron will only be 2-2 in the finals still, wait til he gets a winning record.

[chosen_wun]

Another elite SG could have done pretty much the same thing that Kobe did -- or, at least close to it.

Shaq was irreplaceable those championship teams, Kobe was not.
Nah...Kobe was the 3rd best player in the league, only behind Duncan and Shaq, arguably KG might have been as good. Lakers don't beat Spurs with any guard besides Kobe.

LeBron doesn't need people to diminish Kobe in order to be propped up. I have no problem giving Kobe his credit because I know that Shaq and LeBron would have terrorized America ... they would have to shut down the league.

[KG215]

:roll:

So stupid.
What did he say that was wrong?

[Kurosawa0]

It's tough. Being only the 5th player to win 4 MVPs and hypothetically the 5th player to win an MVP and a ring twice in the same season is pretty damn impressive.

Right now I have LeBron at #11:

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. LeBron

If he wins another ring I probably bump him up to #9 above Shaq and Hakeem. I'd say he needs third ring or 5th MVP to move above Kobe for me.

[Ne 1]

It's tough. Being only the 5th player to win 4 MVPs and hypothetically the 5th player to win an MVP and a ring twice in the same season is pretty damn impressive.

Right now I have LeBron at #11:

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. LeBron

If he wins another ring I probably bump him up to #9 above Shaq and Hakeem. I'd say he needs third ring or 5th MVP to move above Kobe for me.

This is how I have it by tiers currently:

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

[DatAsh]

This is how I have it by tiers currently:

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

I like the tiered approach. I'd switch Johnson and Jabbar, and I'll generally break it in to 5 tiers, but otherwise my tiers would be fairly similar.

[Ne 1]

I like the tiered approach. I'd switch Johnson and Jabbar, and I'll generally break it in to 5 tiers, but otherwise my tiers would be fairly similar.

Taking into account winning, peak play/dominance, longevity, individual achievements and impact on his teams I'd say Jabbar has a strong case as GOAT, what makes you put him in the class of Bird/Shaq rather than Jordan/Wilt/Russel and put Magic with them? Also curious to see what players you'd have in the 5th tier.

[UnbiasedGuy]

Yes, 1 rape > 0 rape. Checkmate scrubs.

pretty sure lebron raped the city of cleveland as well as dwayne wade in 2011 for a fmvp

2 rapes > 1 rape

[DatAsh]

Taking into account winning, peak play/dominance, longevity, individual achievements and impact on his teams I'd say Jabbar has a strong case as GOAT, what makes you put him in the class of Bird/Shaq rather than Jordan/Wilt/Russel and put Magic with them? Also curious to see what players you'd have in the 5th tier.

Generally I'd split your 4 tiers into 5 tiers, which changes things a bit.

1. Russell, Jordan
2. Kareem, Wilt, Magic
3. Bird, Shaq
4. Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem
5. Oscar, West, Malone, James

As for why I'd take Magic over Kareem, I just think he had a slightly larger impact on team success, which is my one and only criteria for ranking players. They're close enough that I put them in the same tier, but if forced to separate the two, I'd rank Magic over Kareem.

[K Xerxes]

This is how I have it by tiers currently:

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

This is probably the closest anyone I've seen has got to my ranking. I know people usually do the 1-10 approach, but it's so hard to separate some of the players that I've thought of a tiered approach more and more recently.

Personally, I believe Hakeem is greater than Shaq, so I'd switch those two around. Other than that, you've pretty much nailed it. At times I think Wilt and Russell should be bumped down to the second tier, but when I really examine their accomplishments, they have just a good shout as Kareem.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron has always been a better overall player. Kobe is a great scorer and competitor but one of the most overrated players in league history as well. Out of all his championships there is an argument he was best player in league for one while lebron would be hands down best player for 2 along with mvps to go with it.

[Shepseskaf]

No SG could replace Kobe especially in 2001 and have the Lakers dominate in similar fashion.
Are you kidding me?

Replace Kobe in 2000-01 with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse and the odds are that a championship would still be there for the taking. The team might be slightly less dominant due to missing Kobe's perimeter defense, but I'm betting they would still win it because the others would provide the same scoring punch.

I don't particularly like Shaq, but he was the irreplaceable piece. No one could conceivably take his spot and still have the Lakers in as sure a place to win the championship.

[Svendiggity]

Are you kidding me?

Replace Kobe in 2000-01 with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse and the odds are that a championship would still be there for the taking. The team might be slightly less dominant due to missing Kobe's perimeter defense, but I'm betting they would still win it because the others would provide the same scoring punch.

I don't particularly like Shaq, but he was the irreplaceable piece. No one could conceivably take his spot and still have the Lakers in as sure a place to win the championship.

none of those dudes have the passion, leadership and poise that Kobe has. You underestimate the emotions of a basketball team. There are deeper things to look at than just talent.

[Shepseskaf]

none of those dudes have the passion, leadership and poise that Kobe has. You underestimate the emotions of a basketball team. There are deeper things to look at than just talent.
Spare me the hero worship... or get some help.

All three players had plenty of passion, leadership and poise. All could also score on Kobe's level.

[Sleu27]

Are you kidding me?

Replace Kobe in 2000-01 with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse and the odds are that a championship would still be there for the taking. The team might be slightly less dominant due to missing Kobe's perimeter defense, but I'm betting they would still win it because the others would provide the same scoring punch.

I don't particularly like Shaq, but he was the irreplaceable piece. No one could conceivably take his spot and still have the Lakers in as sure a place to win the championship.


kobe> stackhouse, vince carter, tmac

plain and simple

[Shepseskaf]

kobe> stackhouse, vince carter, tmac

plain and simple
Can you read? I didn't say that any of them were superior to Kobe.

I said that LA would likely have won a championship if any of them replaced Kobe on the team.

[Svendiggity]

Spare me the hero worship... or get some help.

All three players had plenty of passion, leadership and poise. All could also score on Kobe's level.

Hero worship? You don't even know me.

I can tell the difference between a ball player that is skilled and wants to get buckets and ball player that is completely fixated on winning the game. It's easy to spot the difference, maybe you just don't get it.

[Nash]

Lebron was averaging 27/7/7 his second year in the league. I'm pretty sure he could have been carried by prime monster Shaq.

[deja vu]

No. LeBron James needs to win at least 3 more titles to be considered better than Kobe Bryant.

LeBron can't win it all as the main man. His fans will say that he had a shitty supporting cast in Cleveland, but you can't 66 and 61 games with a shitty team, even though it was a relatively weak East during those years. So he left the franchise to team up with two other superstars, which made things a whole lot easier for him.

He also lost in the 2011 Finals playing one of the worst Finals performances by a superstar.

That's why I can't blame his haters for saying things like "0.5 rings." LeBron's move to Miami showed that he can't deal with the pressure of leading a franchise to a title as the main man. He basically colluded with Wade and Bosh to lessen his burden.

I'm not a fan of Kobe but he showed he can deal with the pressure as the main man and he was not afraid to rise up to the challenge. LeBron basically has to put up MVP-type numbers and win titles for the next 3 years to be considered better than Kobe.

[Shepseskaf]

Hero worship? You don't even know me.

I can tell the difference between a ball player that is skilled and wants to get buckets and ball player that is completely fixated on winning the game. It's easy to spot the difference, maybe you just don't get it.
:roll:

So, what you're saying is that Kobe was the only elite-level SG in 2000-01 who was fixated on "winning the game"? All of the others were simply "skilled" and wanted to "get buckets"?

[Svendiggity]

No. LeBron James needs to win at least 3 more titles to be considered better than Kobe Bryant.

LeBron can't win it all as the main man. His fans will say that he had a shitty supporting cast in Cleveland, but you can't 66 and 61 games with a shitty team, even though it was a relatively weak East during those years. So he left the franchise to team up with two other superstars, which made things a whole lot easier for him.

He also lost in the 2011 Finals playing one of the worst Finals performances by a superstar.

That's why I can't blame his haters for saying things like "0.5 rings." LeBron's move to Miami showed that he can't deal with the pressure of leading a franchise to a title as the main man. He basically colluded with Wade and Bosh to lessen his burden.

I'm not a fan of Kobe but he showed he can deal with the pressure as the main man and he was not afraid to rise up to the challenge. LeBron basically has to put up MVP-type numbers and win titles for the next 3 years to be considered better than Kobe.

He will.

[Heavincent]

Lebron has always been a better overall player. Kobe is a great scorer and competitor but one of the most overrated players in league history as well. Out of all his championships there is an argument he was best player in league for one while lebron would be hands down best player for 2 along with mvps to go with it.

Look at this retard :oldlol:

[Svendiggity]

:roll:

So, what you're saying is that Kobe was the only elite-level SG in 2000-01 who was fixated on "winning the game"? All of the others were simply "skilled" and wanted to "get buckets"?

Mcgrady admitted that he wasted his talent and didn't try hard in practice. Look it up. And it didn't matter that he admitted it, everyone already knew. Same goes for Vince.

[Robalvarez2010]

He needs to have 4 rings to catch-up to kobe or duncan.
To me he's still not top 10 with two rings, I just don't see who he could replace with only having 2.

K I am new to these forums but I don't know how any of you could say someone is better because they have more rings then the other. If that's the case then Robert Horry is way better then Kobe because he has 7 rings or Norris Cole is better then Charles Barkley or Reggie Miller because he has a ring and they don't. You guys can't go based of rings, you have to go based off stats, and if you want to based off stats then yes Kobe has a slight edge over lebron but only because he has been in the league longer, and still lebron in the short times has done something's that Kobe has not done. Like hes the youngest player to reach 20,000 points, at this rate he will be at 40,000+ by the time he retires. He's the only player to go 30pts on 60% shooting in six straight games, second player in nba history to record 2000pts, 500 rebounds, and 500 assists. I could go on and on but I will be here forever. But like I said Kobe does have a slight edge for now but I do see lebron passing him.

[Shepseskaf]

Mcgrady admitted that he wasted his talent and didn't try hard in practice. Look it up. And it didn't matter that he admitted it, everyone already knew. Same goes for Vince.
TMac played for Orlando at the time, Stackhouse was on Detroit, and Vince was still in Toronto.

Put any of them with Shaq on a championship-level team and their attitudes would be different, I guarantee.

[FiveRings]

The Lebron fans are right about needing to look at more than ring count when ranking players. For instance, I think if Jordan retired for good with 4 rings (4 of 4), he would still rank higher than Kobe with 6 rings (say 6 of 8). Why? Because Jordan was just flat out better as a player than Kobe. It's extremely clear just by watching Jordan that he was better than Kobe.

Here's the problem. Lebron fans think two rings on a stacked team is as good as Kobe's five, because they see him as a more dominant version of Michael Jordan. Projected to be the new GOAT by so many Bron fans here. Lebron's had some dominant regular seasons, sure, and had some beast games this past Playoffs and finally won a FMVP, but he is no Jordan. Not even close. Guys like Pauk are getting ready to place Lebron above Jordan, when Lebron's Finals record is 33.3%. Jordan almost always stepped up in the big moments and delivered. Can we say that about Lebron thus far?

And assuming Lebron will never fail again in the Finals is just speculation. He's got 4 less rings than Kobe and in the Finals, Lebron has already failed as many times as him. Lebron will win a few more rings, but what if in doing so he also loses once or twice more in the Finals? That would mean he would have 3 or 4 more losses in the Finals than MJ, and 1 or 2 more losses in the Finals than Kobe, and with an extremely stacked Heat team at that. We can't predict the future and we don't know right now one way or the other.

From what we've seen out of Lebron in his career thus far, he's not clearly and obviously better than Kobe like an MJ is. Lebron is way closer to Kobe and Duncan than he is MJ. Lebron fans can act like he's obviously better than these guys because of some dominant regular seasons, and claim anyone who disagrees doesn't know basketball, but come back to me when Lebron doesn't have 3 less rings than Duncan while having two more Finals losses, and 4 less rings than Kobe while having the same amount of Finals failures.

[DatAsh]

K I am new to these forums

You may fool a few people with this, but you're not fooling me. Your frequent misspellings and run-on sentences stick out like a sore thumb.

[Svendiggity]

TMac played for Orlando at the time, Stackhouse was on Detroit, and Vince was still in Toronto.

Put any of them with Shaq on a championship-level team and their attitudes would be different, I guarantee.

Shaq wasn't practicing hard. He didn't try until the games. Kobe and Fisher were the ones changing peoples attitudes.

[Meticode]

I say three rings makes it undebatable.
I agree with this. The MVPs certainly help LeBron, especially if he gets his fourth this year which to me it's either him or Durant and personally I feel LeBron should get it. He's had his most efficient offensive season ever... 56% FG for a SF? WTF!? That's insane. Not to mention he had hsi best year from beyond the arc ever.

[Robalvarez2010]

You may fool a few people with this, but you're not fooling me. Your frequent misspellings and run-on sentences stick out like a sore thumb.

What the f**k are you talking about. I am new here this is actually my second post. I have been lurking these forums for the past two months just reading everyones comments but never signed up until now, and sorry that I am typing quickly and I have some misspelled words here and there, I did not know that we were having a spelling bee.

[Shepseskaf]

Shaq wasn't practicing hard. He didn't try until the games. Kobe and Fisher were the ones changing peoples attitudes.
Wow...just wow. I have absolutely no response to that bit of wisdom.

[FiveRings]

What the f**k are you talking about. I am new here this is actually my second post. I have been lurking these forums for the past two months just reading everyones comments but never signed up until now, and sorry that I am typing quick and I have some misspelled words here and there, I did not know that we were having a spelling bee.
What the f**k are you talking about? I am new here. This is actually my second post. I have been lurking these forums for the past two months, just reading everyone's comments, but never signed up until now. Sorry that I am typing quickly and have some misspelled words here and there. I did not know that we were having a spelling bee.

Fixed that for you. Only 8 errors this time.

[razzredazzre]

Based on his individual talent display, I think he's a top 10 ever despite his 4th quarter dilemmas. His overall impact in the game is ridiculous. But overall, for now, he's not in the conversation of Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc. Also he's still not even 30. And there's still a lot of doubters saying once he loses a step, he won't be able to adjust his game. So only time would tell.

If he leads his team to 2-3 more championships, then we can talk. No doubt he'd be in the conversation of Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc and there would be even people saying he's better than Jordan.

[Svendiggity]

Based on his individual talent display, I think he's a top 10 ever despite his 4th quarter dilemmas. His overall impact in the game is ridiculous. But overall, for now, he's not in the conversation of Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc. Also he's still not even 30. And there's still a lot of doubters saying once he loses a step, he won't be able to adjust his game. So only time would tell.

If he leads his team to 2-3 more championships, then we can talk. No doubt he'd be in the conversation of Kobe, Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc and there would be even people saying he's better than Jordan.

He will. So we can talk now.

[Ne 1]

Are you kidding me?

Replace Kobe in 2000-01 with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse and the odds are that a championship would still be there for the taking. The team might be slightly less dominant due to missing Kobe's perimeter defense, but I'm betting they would still win it because the others would provide the same scoring punch.

I don't particularly like Shaq, but he was the irreplaceable piece. No one could conceivably take his spot and still have the Lakers in as sure a place to win the championship.

What about facilitating/play making and clutch play? Sorry, but none of those guys are dropping 35 ppg on Sacramento and 33 ppg on San Antonio caveraging 29/7/6 overall in the playoffs like Kobe did in '01 while playing all-world defense, facilitating the Lakers offense and taking over in 4th quarters when the game is on the line.

Out of the guys you mentioned they might have a chance with Vince but let's be honest, Shaq played with prime Penny and didn't win. Vince never had the heart or will/determination to win Kobe does. Let alone hunger. Not to mention Carter wasn't ever a very good defender, while Kobe was an All-Defensive team defensive player during the Lakers 3-peat and he also wasn't the all-around player Kobe was either. :oldlol: at thinking you could simply put anyone with Shaq and they would win rings, especially '01 Stackhouse. Kobe was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league that year and you think you can just put a Stackhouse level player in his place and it's a guarantee they win? But anyway if you want to do the "what if" alternate history route, I can just as easily speculate that Kobe could win rings with Duncan or KG.

[Electric Slide]

Lebron has always been a better overall player. Kobe is a great scorer and competitor but one of the most overrated players in league history as well. Out of all his championships there is an argument he was best player in league for one while lebron would be hands down best player for 2 along with mvps to go with it.
Good post, Kobe was never really the best player in the league or at least clear cut.

Lebron has clearly been the best for the past seasons.

[ripthekik]

Good post, Kobe was never really the best player in the league or at least clear cut.

Lebron has clearly been the best for the past seasons.
Kobe was in a league with prime Shaq, Iverson, Duncan, Tmac, Garnett, Dirk, Vince etc.. he competes with them for MVP and championships.

Who is lebron competing with? :rolleyes:

[Svendiggity]

Good post, Kobe was never really the best player in the league or at least clear cut.

Lebron has clearly been the best for the past seasons.

Lebron only been clear cut best the past 2 seasons. All the criticism after that first year in Miami changed Lebron, before then I would have still taken Kobe.

[Kingwillball]

Look at this retard :oldlol:

Stop hating cause Lebron will finish top 5 all time while Kobe clearly wont.

[Electric Slide]

Lebron only been clear cut best the past 2 seasons. All the criticism after that first year in Miami changed Lebron, before then I would have still taken Kobe.
Kobe was never clearly the best, I don't think he ever actually was the best

2006, Wade was the best
2007, Duncan was the best
2008, toss up between Lebron, Paul, and Kobe
2009-now, Lebron and it's not even close.

[Electric Slide]

Kobe was in a league with prime Shaq, Iverson, Duncan, Tmac, Garnett, Dirk, Vince etc.. he competes with them for MVP and championships.

Who is lebron competing with? :rolleyes:
The problem is that Lebron is better than all of the guys you just listed so it would be irrelevant.

The fact that Lebron was comparable to Kobe when Kobe was at his prime should say something.

[Kingwillball]

Lebron only been clear cut best the past 2 seasons. All the criticism after that first year in Miami changed Lebron, before then I would have still taken Kobe.

Lebron has been best player 4-5 years last 2 years he is at god like level.

[razzredazzre]

Kobe was in a league with prime Shaq, Iverson, Duncan, Tmac, Garnett, Dirk, Vince etc.. he competes with them for MVP and championships.

Who is lebron competing with? :rolleyes:

This.. even with that competition Kobe was playing at MVP level for 2-3 years except he just didn't get the MVP awards....

In the span of 17 years in the league he has accomplished amazing things, and now we gonna say LeBron is already surpassed Kobe? He just won his first title last year, so lets save conclusions for later.

[razzredazzre]

He will.

When he does, lets talk.

[Perspektiva]

He is already a better player than Kobe ever was, so no, there are no arguments.

[razzredazzre]

He is already a better player than Kobe ever was, so no, there are no arguments.

Nice argument :applause:

[Svendiggity]

Kobe was never clearly the best, I don't think he ever actually was the best

2006, Wade was the best
2007, Duncan was the best
2008, toss up between Lebron, Paul, and Kobe
2009-now, Lebron and it's not even close.

This year it was close. Kobe played magnificent. And Chris Paul mentioned on the same level as prime Kobe and Lebron? That's hilarious.

[chosen_wun]

I agree with this. The MVPs certainly help LeBron, especially if he gets his fourth this year which to me it's either him or Durant and personally I feel LeBron should get it. He's had his most efficient offensive season ever... 56% FG for a SF? WTF!? That's insane. Not to mention he had hsi best year from beyond the arc ever.
Its not even just this season ... he is a CAREER 50% shooter, he has seasons hovering around 30ppg, 8apg, 8rpg with near or exact 50% shooting ...nobody else in this era is doing this shit.

Look at his 2009-10 season where he was among the top players in assists with nearly 9 a game..its just fcking ridiculous what he is doing given his size and position, and now he is actually on clubs that have legit chances to win it all ? its OVER.:biggums:

[OldSkoolball#52]

He is already a better player than Kobe ever was, so no, there are no arguments.


This is the plain truth. Every non kobe sack jockey knows it. "rings" and "all star mvps" and other such jive turkey nonsense makes no differents.


Lebron is a far superior player than Kobe ever was. It's a fact.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This year it was close. Kobe played magnificent. And Chris Paul mentioned on the same level as prime Kobe and Lebron? That's hilarious.
Chris Paul before knee injuries ruined his quickness and physical abilities? Absolutely. We're talking CP3 circa 2008 and 2009.


Lebron only been clear cut best the past 2 seasons. All the criticism after that first year in Miami changed Lebron, before then I would have still taken Kobe.
Agreed. Especially in retrospect. The way LeBron went out in 2010 and 2011 is indicative of him not being ready to be the best player in the league. He didn't have the tenacity or mentality.

In 2012, he matured and became a man. He started taking things seriously. Pain made him become a man.

By 2008 LeBron was arguably the best "talent" in the league, but I still would've taken Kobe by 2010.

2012, LeBron "got it" ... he understand how to switch modes, be an elite team player and finish games.

[chosen_wun]

Kobe was never clearly the best, I don't think he ever actually was the best

2006, Wade was the best
2007, Duncan was the best
2008, toss up between Lebron, Paul, and Kobe
2009-now, Lebron and it's not even close.Those first two are reaches. I mean, wow. Just relax brah.

Wade had a GOAT finals run but Kobe was the best player that year. I don't know what your argument is for Duncan but even in the 2007 finals he was carried by Parker...I mean like c'mon.

[Svendiggity]

Lebron has been best player 4-5 years last 2 years he is at god like level.

Agreed on the last 2 years. For the last 4 or 5 he's always been the better player as far as talent goes but Kobe's mentality and drive gave him the edge for me. Just my opinion. Kobe and Lebron are my two favorite players so I couldn't give two shits who people think is better. It's just funny to me when people compare Vince and Tmac to Kobe, or say Lebron is better and it's not even close. If people watched Kobe this year they wouldn't say that because he was God-like as well. And in 06' he wasn't God-like, he was God on the court, so I don't want to hear that Dwayne Wade was better in 06' just because he won the title. Kobe was better. period. People need to stop going by numbers and scenarios and just go by what they see.

[Quintilianus]

Good post, Kobe was never really the best player in the league or at least clear cut.

Lebron has clearly been the best for the past seasons.
Kobe was a clear-cut best player in the NBA in 09 and 10.
And the best backcourt player for like 7 years straight

[Electric Slide]

Kobe was a clear-cut best player in the NBA in 09 and 10.
And the best backcourt player for like 7 years straight
No, there is a reason why Lebron won MVP those two seasons.

[chosen_wun]

Kobe was a clear-cut best player in the NBA in 09 and 10.
And the best backcourt player for like 7 years straight
:biggums:

[FiveRings]

This is the plain truth. Every non kobe sack jockey knows it. "rings" and "all star mvps" and other such jive turkey nonsense makes no differents.


Lebron is a far superior player than Kobe ever was. It's a fact.
Superb argument. Despite Lebron and Kobe having failed an equal amount, and Lebron only accomplishing one fifth as much as Kobe in his career thus far, I can't argue with facts. I admit that Lebron is better. I'm joining the bandwagon.

Miami Heat fan since April 2013 :rockon:

[Electric Slide]

Those first two are reaches. I mean, wow. Just relax brah.

Wade had a GOAT finals run but Kobe was the best player that year. I don't know what your argument is for Duncan but even in the 2007 finals he was carried by Parker...I mean like c'mon.
:facepalm

Wade was better easily, had an underrated regular season and a dominant post-season run.

Duncan, same thing, he was a better overall player than Kobe, and played much better in the playoffs. There is this thing called defense and Duncan was one of the best at it that season, Kobe? Non-existent.

[red1]

Kobe was a clear-cut best player in the NBA in 09 and 10.
And the best backcourt player for like 7 years straight
you are always wrong. your avatar suits you well :facepalm

[Ne 1]

]Lebron has always been a better overall player. Kobe is a great scorer and competitor but one of the most overrated players in league history as well.

LeBron is overrated too. He's a jack of all trades master of none. It wasn't until 2012 when he improved his footwork, post game, his aggressive mentality and added a pinch post reliable post game ... and he finally started to develop a consistent mid range-ish scoring game that he won his first ring,


Out of all his championships there is an argument he was best player in league for one while lebron would be hands down best player for 2 along with mvps to go with it.

:oldlol: What is this non-sense? Rings are rings. There's no such category as rings by season MVP or rings by "best player in league." But if you want to look at it that way, how about we put peak 27-29 (around the same age LeBron from 2011-2013) year old Kobe Bryant on a team with 2 superstars + great shooters + good defenders in the JV league conference. How many "best player in league" rings does he win?

[chosen_wun]

:facepalm

Wade was better easily, had an underrated regular season and a dominant post-season run.

Duncan, same thing, he was a better overall player than Kobe, and played much better in the playoffs. There is this thing called defense and Duncan was one of the best at it that season, Kobe? Non-existent.
Lmao yikes. There is a clear agenda here.

Quite frankly I don't care to argue for Kobe because i'm not really a fan of his game, but wow ... those are some bold, hipster statements you made.

[Quintilianus]

No, there is a reason why Lebron won MVP those two seasons.
That's great basketball knowledge you got there. Real insight. I mean, using media awards as an indicator to a man's greatness is obviously logic as my math test answers. No flaws, like at all.
Sarcasm aside, Kobe was obviously the clear-cut best player in 09-10, you could argue about 08 too. There was a guy who got stats and quit on his team and a guy who didn't give a **** about stats ant led them to two titles. One of those teams they faced was one of the best defensive teams ever, another was a team with deadly shooters centered around best C in the league, and they had great defense too.
It's too obvious that Kobe was a clear-cut best player in those years, especially in the playoffs with historic performances. But you may not be old enough to remember that, I mean, it's been three years, you couldn't have possibly seen those series as you see any value in MVP awards.
I guess Duncan's not the best defensive player in 00-05, since he doesn't have any dpoys from those years, huh?

[Ne 1]

Stop hating cause Lebron will finish top 5 all time while Kobe clearly wont.

Kobe is arguably top 5 though.

[Quintilianus]

:facepalm

Wade was better easily, had an underrated regular season and a dominant post-season run.

Duncan, same thing, he was a better overall player than Kobe, and played much better in the playoffs. There is this thing called defense and Duncan was one of the best at it that season, Kobe? Non-existent.
That's really taken out of your ass..
Have you like seen any of Kobe's games from 06-07? Yeah, there was that time when gilbert lit him up for like 60 by hitting every imaginable shot in that game over great defense. It's not like Kobe didn't have 45 for himself, or shut gilbert in the next game, yeah?

[Electric Slide]

That's really taken out of your ass..
Have you like seen any of Kobe's games from 06-07? Yeah, there was that time when gilbert lit him up for like 60 by hitting every imaginable shot in that game over great defense. It's not like Kobe didn't have 45 for himself, or shut gilbert in the next game, yeah?
Kobe didn't shut anyone down that season. Kobe got torched by everyone that season, lol at Kobe ever shutting anyone down. He is a defender by reputation, not by cause.

If Arenas got shut down it was probably because of his teammate defending him. Kobe has been an atrocious defender since Shaq left.

[Electric Slide]

That's great basketball knowledge you got there. Real insight. I mean, using media awards as an indicator to a man's greatness is obviously logic as my math test answers. No flaws, like at all.
Sarcasm aside, Kobe was obviously the clear-cut best player in 09-10, you could argue about 08 too. There was a guy who got stats and quit on his team and a guy who didn't give a **** about stats ant led them to two titles. One of those teams they faced was one of the best defensive teams ever, another was a team with deadly shooters centered around best C in the league, and they had great defense too.
It's too obvious that Kobe was a clear-cut best player in those years, especially in the playoffs with historic performances. But you may not be old enough to remember that, I mean, it's been three years, you couldn't have possibly seen those series as you see any value in MVP awards.
I guess Duncan's not the best defensive player in 00-05, since he doesn't have any dpoys from those years, huh?
lol at clear cut, all kobe did was win that season, but he wasn't the best player. but then when we bring up players that won during 06 and 07, they aren't valid. nice contradiction you have there.

lebron was easily better in 2009 and 2010, not close. give him kobe's supporting cast and we're talking playoff records of 16-3 and 16-4.

[K Xerxes]

The problem with Kobe was that he wasted away part of his prime on a crap team that had little chance in making a run for the title. LeBron is spending and going to spend most of his prime in title ready teams. I don't really think their situations can be compared. Anybody who watched the games knew Kobe was supremely dominant in '06-10, regardless of team performance.

However, I think LeBron had a strong case for best player starting from '09 and has been by far the best player since '12. And that's not gonna change for a while.

The difference for me is that I believe this LeBron would still be the best player even if Kobe was in his prime. Opinions may differ of course, but I haven't seen anyone as dominant for a long time. The only thing left for LeBron to prove is multiple championships.

[SpecialQue]

Lebron can win six more MVPs, six more championships and six more FMVPs and he still won't be as good as Kobe because I personally don't like Lebron.

[Electric Slide]

The problem with Kobe was that he wasted away part of his prime on a crap team that had little chance in making a run for the title. LeBron is spending and going to spend most of his prime in title ready teams. I don't really think their situations can be compared. Anybody who watched the games knew Kobe was supremely dominant in '06-10, regardless of team performance.

However, I think LeBron had a strong case for best player starting from '09 and has been by far the best player since '12.
Kobe brought that on himself since he forced Shaq to leave town.

Then he cried and wanted to be traded out of LA cause his team sucked.

[Ne 1]

Kobe was never clearly the best, I don't think he ever actually was the best


:oldlol: Celtics fans. You guys were chanting "MVP!" for Kobe just a few years ago in Boston.

Years you can say Kobe was clearly the best:

2006 - I don't think anyone else had a case this year. Kobe took his game to another level. Unbelievable historic individual feats, and his team overachieved, too. Phil asked him to carry the team until they learned the triangle, and they ended up with 45 wins in what might be the most stacked conference in the history of the league despite that, and not much of a cast outside of Odom who was very inconsistent and didn't play like an All-Star until the second half of the year)

2007- Not as clear as '06 since I don't think he was quite as good, though he was close. This is the 2nd year in a row that I thought Kobe was clearly the best in the game. Duncan does have a case in hindsight, but I'm sticking with what I thought back then)

2008 - This year is clear. Kobe played his best from an all around standpoint, his best defensive season since the 3-peat, his best job as a facilitator ever and his most mature, unselfish and intelligent ball. It's right up there with '06 as his best season. Literally every player in the league, coach, past legend, baksetball analyst etc. that mentioned about someone being the best player it was Kobe that season.


Years that you can argue he was the best:

2009- He was at least top 3. He has a case for top 2 behind LeBron, or even best player again, but I have to go with LeBron and Wade as the top 2.

2010- At least #2 behind LeBron. Wade's laziness allowed Kobe to get back to top 2 comfortably, and Lebron's choke job was enough for lot of fans to have Kobe as the best after winning a 5th ring and 2nd Finals MVP, but I still give the slight edge to James despite that)

[K Xerxes]

Kobe brought that on himself since he forced Shaq to leave town.

Then he cried and wanted to be traded out of LA cause his team sucked.

With all due respect, you and others may be fixated on the whole 'Kobe forced Shaq out' or 'LeBron was wrong (or went about it the wrong way) to leave Cleveland' narrative, but I don't pay as much attention to it. I'm more interested on how they perform on the court.

[Electric Slide]

With all due respect, you and others may be fixated on the whole 'Kobe forced Shaq out' or 'LeBron was wrong (or went about it the wrong way) to leave Cleveland' narrative, but I don't pay as much attention to it. I'm more interested on how they perform on the court.
You said Kobe wasted his prime in LA, yeah, he brought that on himself.


idiot.

[Quintilianus]

Kobe didn't shut anyone down that season. Kobe got torched by everyone that season, lol at Kobe ever shutting anyone down. He is a defender by reputation, not by cause.

If Arenas got shut down it was probably because of his teammate defending him. Kobe has been an atrocious defender since Shaq left.
You do realize that every single one of his respected opponents, rivals over the years in vince, wade, t-mac, iverson shot lower to much lower percent when being defended by kobe then overall in their careers? I see you like stats, because there's no other point from what you could call LeBron the best in 09 and 10.
It's really funny that you bring up defense in lebron vs. kobe debate. Who has lebron shut down? I remember him doing pretty good job by doubling rose in 4th quarters, but then remember him getting torched by the same guy the year before.
I remember him being lit up for like 40 by Pierce in an elimination game.
I remember lewis and turkoglu running circles around him in cle-orl series in 09, for what great statline he put up offensively he probably cost them half as much defensively.
You're really digging up yourself in to a hole with you ignorant claims. Learn to respect greatness, there's not much of Kobe left.

[K Xerxes]

You said Kobe wasted his prime in LA, yeah, he brought that on himself.


idiot.

There is no point carrying on this discussion. Please go troll someone else.

[Ne 1]

Kobe brought that on himself since he forced Shaq to leave town.


Kobe did not run Shaq out of town. That's an unsubstantiated rumor and it's been proven to be false. Jerry Buss said that they would do anything to resign Kobe, and that bruised Shaq's ego.

Shaq wanted a max contract extension (and publicly called out Jerry Buss during an exhibition game that season). Jerry Buss refused. After the Lakers lost to the Pistons in the Finals, Shaq publicly demanded to be traded because Buss refused to give him max money. The Lakers decided to deal him. Bryant had already decided to sign with the Clippers, but Buss made a last-ditch effort to Bryant because he knew how disasterous it would be from a public relations standpoint for the Lakers to lose both of their star players in one offseason. Bryant has admitted he talked to Jerry West and West advised him to stay with the Lakers. Buss and Kupchak convinced him they'd rebuild the franchise and bring in top talent. So, he re-signed with the Lakers.

Saying Bryant ran Shaq out of L.A. is the easy scenario that people like to latch on to, but it's pretty far from the actual truth.


Then he cried and wanted to be traded out of LA cause his team sucked.

He was pressuring the front office to bring in talent. He did what he did and got Gasol after Bynum got injured. Dude's "temper tantrum" turned the organization around in a matter of months. Perhaps if guys would quit sitting on their hands wanting the public and the media to like them they'd get shit done.

Anyway Kobe has played every game of his career with one team and even Magic Johnson asked for a trade once. Why should Kobe be punished because the Lakers refused to honor his wishes and instead tried to build a better team? Kobe never said "swing a Gasol deal" he said "trade me to bummy Chicago to play with Ben Gordon." Kobe had people coming to him instead of him jumping on another legend that already had a ring ala Clyde and LeBron. But yes, Kobe did bitch and he asked for a trade. However I doubt he was ever going to leave, I think it's obvious he was trying to spark a fire under management to bring in pieces, but let's say he legit was going to go to the Chicago Bulls with Ben Gordon/Kirk Hinrich. That's not nearly the same as colluding to join forces with two other superstars all in your prime.

Say what you want about Kobe but he won on his terms and put pressure on his team to make moves, not just (for example) going to the Spurs as a FA to stack the Western Conference and avoid Duncan because he thinks the issue is simply winning rings, not competing for rings. LeBron's mindset is "I need this ring to be considered great, what's the easiest way to get it" not "I want to rip your heart out and prove I'm the best". Kobe was about to go to the Clippers with Elton Brand in '04 if the Lakers hadn't traded Shaq and he was going to go the Bulls in '07 with Ben Gordon. There's no way in the prime/peak of his career he would go to another superstars team who he'd essentially be competing otherwise and measured against like Duncan's Spurs, KG's T-Wolves, Nash's Suns, Wade's Heat, LeBron's Cavs or Dirk's Mavs. LeBron visibly pouted and quit on his team in an odd turn of events after game 3 vs Boston in 2010. He then BEGGED for help to get a ring and colluded to move to another top 1-3 superstar's franchise and city who had also already acquired another top 15-20 perennial All-Star/Top 5 PF in the league because the route to a ring and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been with the Cavs, Knicks, Nets Bulls or Clippers. Hence why he said they would win 8 rings and why he said "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us" and they joked that Pat Riley could come back and and play for them and it would still be easy.

[Electric Slide]

So pretty mcuh there is no argument that Kobe would be better.

He is worse than Lebron at everything and he was never even clear cut better than Lebron even when Kobe was in his prime.

[chazzy]

Electric Slide = RocketGreatness

[Heavincent]

Lebron has been best player 4-5 years last 2 years he is at god like level.

Lebron was not the best player in the league in 07 or 08 :oldlol: Kobe was widely regarded as the best between 06 and 08, and many people still thought of him as the best in 09 and 10.

[Quintilianus]

So pretty mcuh there is no argument that Kobe would be better.

He is worse than Lebron at everything and he was never even clear cut better than Lebron even when Kobe was in his prime.
Basically you're a terrible poster.
My grandmother could do better analysis of these two players right now. And she's dead for like 3 years.
Really, give up.
I'm from the april 2013 group, but you're the epitome of what makes us look like idiots

[ripthekik]

Electric Slide = RocketGreatness
and that's silkk right :oldlol:

[duatjsghd]

No reason to compare someone whos about to retire and another that has minimum 7~9 more seasons. If you have to compare, compare 28 lebron with 28 kobe. Kind of obvious who was better at that age.

Wait till Lebron retires, If he keeps playing at this level for 5 years he has a very good chance to beat kobe in the goat list but thats just an assumption.

[DatAsh]

Lebron can win six more MVPs, six more championships and six more FMVPs and he still won't be as good as Kobe because I personally don't like Lebron.

That's pretty much what the argument - for both sides -boils down to for 90% of the people in this thread.

[NASH = BEST]

If Lebron wins another title is there any argument that Kobe is still better?

Apparently 11 pages of debating this topic would suggest that "Yes, there is arguments for Kobe."

Lebron winning a ring this year does not put him above Kobe yet IMO.

If LeBron is able to stay healthy and his play remains consistent for another 4 - 5 years then yeah he passes Kobe.

Posters keep bringing up LeBron's "Success" in Cleveland, and make assumption that Kobe wouldn't have been able to achieve the same. But I never gave too much credit to what Cleveland did back then, 60+ wins and Finals appearance. The reason is cause the East sucked really bad back then. The year they made it to the Finals, everyone outside of Cleveland knew they'd get crushed. To assume that a prime Kobe would not have had similar success in the East back then is just retarded.

Bottom line, if youre going to knock Kobe for winning with Shaq, then you have to knock LeBron for winning with Wade, Bosh, and Allen.

[Shepseskaf]

What about facilitating/play making and clutch play? Sorry, but none of those guys are dropping 35 ppg on Sacramento and 33 ppg on San Antonio caveraging 29/7/6 overall in the playoffs like Kobe did in '01 while playing all-world defense, facilitating the Lakers offense and taking over in 4th quarters when the game is on the line.
Really? In 2000-01, Stackhouse was the second-leading scorer in the league at 29.8ppg, Vince was 5th at 27.6ppg, and TMac was 7th at 26.8ppg.

Any of them could easily supply the scoring that Kobe did. As far as "facilitating the offense", all of them also averaged more apg than Kobe.

Defensively, none were on Kobe's level but not to the point where it would absolutely prevent the Lakers from winning a championship, with all of the other ingredients each would supply.


Kobe was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league that year and you think you can just put a Stackhouse level player in his place and it's a guarantee they win?
What are you basing that on? Your opinion only?

In the MVP voting that year, TMac was sixth, Kobe was ninth, Vince was 11th, and Stackhouse was 13th.

How exactly will you prove that Kobe was "the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league" that year?

Fact is, the Lakers would have had an excellent chance of winning 'chips with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse. Players react differently when they're with a winning organization, and all of them were capable of stepping of their games -- especially if they knew titles were possible.

[Quintilianus]

Really? In 2000-01, Stackhouse was the second-leading scorer in the league at 29.8ppg, Vince was 5th at 27.6ppg, and TMac was 7th at 26.8ppg.

Any of them could easily supply the scoring that Kobe did. As far as "facilitating the offense", all of them also averaged more apg than Kobe.

Defensively, none were on Kobe's level but not to the point where it would absolutely prevent the Lakers from winning a championship, with all of the other ingredients each would supply.


What are you basing that on? Your opinion only?

In the MVP voting that year, TMac was sixth, Kobe was ninth, Vince was 11th, and Stackhouse was 13th.

How exactly will you prove that Kobe was "the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league" that year?

Fact is, the Lakers would have had an excellent chance of winning 'chips with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse. Players react differently when they're with a winning organization, and all of them were capable of stepping of their games -- especially if they knew titles were possible.

How come Shaq didn't win it with penny? That dude as a baller.
And no, tmac, vince and stack wasn't on par with kobe offensively. I'm not even gonna talk about defense or clutch ability.
The only player that would've had a case would be iverson, and he was still miles behind kobe on defensive end

[Kiddlovesnets]

2 is probably not enough, but 3 will do. Kobe's 3 rings with Shaq is only equivalent to 0.3 rings in reality since it was nothing but Shaq's one man show. Perhaps Phil Jackson should get some credits too, but no more than that. So typically Kobe has 2.3 rings, which means that Lebron has more equivalent rings than Kobe so long as he wins FMVP for three times.

[Shepseskaf]

How come Shaq didn't win it with penny? That dude as a baller.
And no, tmac, vince and stack wasn't on par with kobe offensively. I'm not even gonna talk about defense or clutch ability.
The only player that would've had a case would be iverson, and he was still miles behind kobe on defensive end
Sometimes the stupidity on this board is astounding. Stack averaged more ppg than Kobe that year, and TMac and Vince were within a few points. Obviously, all of them were offensively on the same tier as Kobe was. What other logical conclusion can one draw?

"Clutch ability"? How are you measuring that? Kobe gets a lot of undeserved credit for being "clutch". TMac has hit clutch shots, and so have Vince and Stack.

Your argument is nothing but pure bs.

[duatjsghd]

How come Shaq didn't win it with penny? That dude as a baller.

:biggums: not like he played the strongest team in NBA history
How stupid can your arguments be?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Really? In 2000-01, Stackhouse was the second-leading scorer in the league at 29.8ppg, Vince was 5th at 27.6ppg, and TMac was 7th at 26.8ppg.

Any of them could easily supply the scoring that Kobe did. As far as "facilitating the offense", all of them also averaged more apg than Kobe.

Defensively, none were on Kobe's level but not to the point where it would absolutely prevent the Lakers from winning a championship, with all of the other ingredients each would supply.


What are you basing that on? Your opinion only?

In the MVP voting that year, TMac was sixth, Kobe was ninth, Vince was 11th, and Stackhouse was 13th.

How exactly will you prove that Kobe was "the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league" that year?

Fact is, the Lakers would have had an excellent chance of winning 'chips with TMac, Vince, or Stackhouse. Players react differently when they're with a winning organization, and all of them were capable of stepping of their games -- especially if they knew titles were possible.
TMac, Vince, Stackhouse, Iverson, Ray Allen, ect ever had a playoff series of 33/7/7 on 51fg% (vs the #1 defense btw) or 35/9/4? Or a playoff run of 29/7/6 on 47fg%/56ts% Please find it for me. And don't give me AI in 01, he shot below 40%.

[Quintilianus]

Sometimes the stupidity on this board is astounding. Stack averaged more ppg than Kobe that year, and TMac and Vince were within a few points. Obviously, all of them were offensively on the same tier as Kobe was. What other logical conclusion can one draw?

"Clutch ability"? How are you measuring that? Kobe gets a lot of undeserved credit for being "clutch". TMac has hit clutch shots, and so have Vince and Stack.

Your argument is nothing but pure bs.
So you're calling me stupid and then proceed to judge player's offensive ability based on ppg? There's only two possibilities now : a) you're a troll b) you know nothing about basketball.
Context doesn't matter huh? Eye test doesn't matter too huh?
I bet you think MJ was 80% as good as kobe offensively as he still averaged like 22 ppg, don't you?
If anything, Kobe has been underrated as a clutch player by these geeks on ISH and various other forums.

[Shepseskaf]

TMac, Vince, Stackhouse, Iverson, Ray Allen, ect ever had a playoff series of 33/7/7 on 51fg% (vs the #1 defense btw) or 35/9/4? Or a playoff run of 29/7/6 on 47fg%/56ts% Please find it for me. And don't give me AI in 01, he shot below 40%.
Another idiot who can't read. I've said (over and over and over) that any of the three SGs I mentioned had the capability of producing at, or close to the levels that Kobe did.

[Quintilianus]

:biggums: not like he played the strongest team in NBA history
How stupid can your arguments be?
I didn't know he played 86' celtics o.O Let me check that again... nope, he did not.
Shaq's orlando got swept in the finals with penny, that's all i've got to say. And it wasn't against MJ's Bulls, who I believe you're referring to the strongest team in NBA history.

[Electric Slide]

TMac, Vince, Stackhouse, Iverson, Ray Allen, ect ever had a playoff series of 33/7/7 on 51fg% (vs the #1 defense btw) or 35/9/4? Or a playoff run of 29/7/6 on 47fg%/56ts% Please find it for me. And don't give me AI in 01, he shot below 40%.
Give them Shaq and they would all do that.

[Shepseskaf]

So you're calling me stupid and then proceed to judge player's offensive ability based on ppg?
:roll: :roll:

What else do you judge a player's offensive ability on but ppg? There may be other factors, but how many points they score over a season is the best measure of offensive ability, don't you think?

I'm wasting my time responding to you. You're just not very bright.

[eliteballer]

Sometimes the stupidity on this board is astounding. Stack averaged more ppg than Kobe that year, and TMac and Vince were within a few points. Obviously, all of them were offensively on the same tier as Kobe was. What other logical conclusion can one draw?

"Clutch ability"? How are you measuring that? Kobe gets a lot of undeserved credit for being "clutch". TMac has hit clutch shots, and so have Vince and Stack.

Your argument is nothing but pure bs.

:roll: What was Stacks FG% that year. Arenas averaged 30 ppg one year, doesn't make him 96 Jordan.

[Quintilianus]

Another idiot who can't read. I've said (over and over and over) that any of the three SGs I mentioned had the capability of producing at, or close to the levels that Kobe did.
No they didn't. Kobe managed to put up those numbers with Shaq. Vince and Tmac managed to put up inferior numbers even without one of the most dominant players ever playing alongside him.
You have no argument besides ppg not being so far apart one another. It's funny, you have no context, probably never checked those guys out to apply the eye test, don't even count defense or clutch ability or dedication to work. Or motivation, that Kobe put up in Shaq by pushing him to the limit mentally.
So before calling me or anyone here stupid try to actually think for a moment bro

[Quintilianus]

:roll: :roll:

What else do you judge a player's offensive ability on but ppg? There may be other factors, but how many points they score over a season is the best measure of offensive ability, don't you think?

I'm wasting my time responding to you. You're just not very bright.
Yep, definitely a troll. Nothing to see here guys, pass trough.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Another idiot who can't read. I've said (over and over and over) that any of the three SGs I mentioned had the capability of producing at, or close to the levels that Kobe did.
How do they have the capability to do it when they have never came close to doing it?

[stanlove1111]

This year it was close. Kobe played magnificent..
Yeah he was almost ready to lead a stacked Laker team to the playoffs the last week of the season. That means he with a stacked team were about the 15th best team in the league. he was just magnificent...

[Shepseskaf]

How do they have the capability to do it when they have never came close to doing it?
I'll just keep stating the obvious. All of them are elite scorers, just like Kobe, who proved their ability to produce points over the course of a season.

No one can say that a player will produce a given point total, given different circumstances, but all of them were capable of producing on a very high level.

[eliteballer]

:roll: What was Stacks FG% that year. Arenas averaged 30 ppg one year, doesn't make him 96 Jordan.

:biggums:

[Quintilianus]

Yeah he was almost ready to lead a stacked Laker team to the playoffs the last week of the season. That means he with a stacked team were about the 15th best team in the league. he was just magnificent...
So stacked they're probably going to get swept in the first round.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'll just keep stating the obvious. All of them are elite scorers, just like Kobe, who proved their ability to produce points over the course of a season.

No one can say that a player will produce a given point total, given different circumstances, but all of them were capable of producing on a very high level.
Stackhouse struggled to shoot 40% in his career and shot 37% in the playoffs, but yeah he would average close to 33-7-7 on 51% vs the best defensive team in the WCF or 35-9-4 on 47% in another series, let alone having them being back to back series like Kobe had in 01.

[stanlove1111]

So stacked they're probably going to get swept in the first round.


So you are honestly saying Kobe wasn't surrounded by a stacked team this year? LOL.

[Quintilianus]

So you are honestly saying Kobe wasn't surrounded by a stacked team this year? LOL.
Of course, they even needed to use 7-8 man rotation and play Kobe for 38+ mpg.
This team is so far from stacked they don't even have a case from any point to be named stacked except for names.
Nash is 39, Howard was awful for more than half a season, gasol was terrible when he played, missed like 30 games, Jordan hill out in the middle of the season, blake banged up, out for half a season I believe, Kobe got a minor injury like every other game because of the minutes.
They have no case for stacked, literally none

[Deuce Bigalow]

So you are honestly saying Kobe wasn't surrounded by a stacked team this year? LOL.
Look how stacked they are. 68 points with 4 minutes left. Getting blown-out too. Stacked.

[tazb]

Kobe-tards really saying a team of 4-6 Hall of Famers...aren't stacked? :roll: :roll: :roll: I've seen it all.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe-tards really saying a team of 4-6 Hall of Famers...aren't stacked? :roll: :roll: :roll: I've seen it all.
Why are they getting blownout then? I thought they were stacked?

[Doctor Rivers]

Kobe-tards really saying a team of 4-6 Hall of Famers...aren't stacked? :roll: :roll: :roll: I've seen it all.

lol @ 4-6 HOFs

[DaSeba5]

Stacked? Kobe wouldn't have had to carry this team all year if they were stacked. Even though they had injuries and had to click, they are still far from stacked.

[2010splash]

LOL! LeBron has already passed Kobe. 2012 playoff run last year = more dominant than anything Kobe has ever done. Now you're asking if he wins another one this year as well? Won't even be debatable anymore.

[2010splash]

LeBron has 4 MVPs in 5 seasons. A 4-time MVP winner in 5 years > a 1-time MVP winner. No doubt about it.

[Magic 32]

LOL! LeBron has already passed Kobe. 2012 playoff run last year = more dominant than anything Kobe has ever done. Now you're asking if he wins another one this year as well? Won't even be debatable anymore.

If the 2008 Celtics had Russell Westbrook, Kobe would have had a more perfect season.

[Magic 32]

LeBron has 4 MVPs in 5 seasons. A 4-time MVP winner in 5 years > a 1-time MVP winner. No doubt about it.

5>7 > 1>3

[tazb]

Why are they getting blownout then? I thought they were stacked?

Maybe because they're playing the second best team in the league? :confusedshrug:


lol @ 4-6 HOFs

Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol all guarantee. Maybe: Jamison, Artest.:confusedshrug:

[chosen_wun]

They should rename this board to Sports Illustrated For Kids Basketball Forum ... most of you guys are stupid af.

on both sides of the argument. Its fcking embarrassing. People can't even use basic stats to compare players effectively. RealGM posters are waaaay smarter...even ********* posters are smarter.

[Shepseskaf]

RealGM posters are waaaay smarter...even ********* posters are smarter.
You admire other boards better, feel free never to show up at ISH again.

You're a garbage poster, by any measure.

[chosen_wun]

You admire other boards better, feel free never to show up at ISH again.

You're a garbage poster, by any measure.
You specifically are one of the worst posters I've ever seen. I'm appalled LeBron has uneducated morons like you arguing in his favor.

A deaf-blind mute infant could debate better.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You admire other boards better, feel free never to show up at ISH again.

You're a garbage poster, by any measure.
You too. "Stackhouse has the capability to produce what Kobe did" :oldlol: ****ing idiot.

[Shepseskaf]

You specifically are one of the worst posters I've ever seen. I'm appalled LeBron has uneducated morons like you arguing in his favor.

A deaf-blind mute infant could debate better.
:roll:

You don't like it here, then hit the bricks. Don't let the door hit you on your @ss on the way out.

[dbk123]

lebron needs at least 3 rings and 3 fmvps to be in the conversation of surpassing kobe. this is coming from a lebron stan

[toooo]

5 rings > 2

[lilgodfather1]

Kobe will have two main arguments over LeBron with another ring, and FMVP. First one will be total rings, and second will be longevity. LeBron has him in every other category.

I will personally rank LeBron #7 if he wins it this year. I can't put him above Shaq in my mind, but Bird will have literally no argument over him. LeBron will pass Bird in points next year, possibly assists (haven't looked it up), despite Bird playing more years, and LeBron won't even be close to out of his prime yet.

2 more rings, and he moves to #5 or #6, ahead of Shaq for sure, possibly ahead of Wilt.

[Round Mound]

Even if Lebron Never Won a Ring he still would be seen as a Better Player By Most Rational Fans (or is Russell Better than Jordan? Get Real). Kobe is a Better Shooter Than Lebron Thats About It. Lebron has Better Handles, Better Rebounder, Better Defender (More Versatile Defender too) and a More Efficient In Game Scorer. Lebron has Been the Best Player in the Game for the Last 5 Years.

[NBAller]

People that use rings as a argument when discussing which player is better than the other is just straight up stupid. Using THAT logic, Derek Fisher is just as good as Kobe. And there's some other bums i'm not aware of with like 7 rings that are even better than Kobe, because the more rings you have, the better you are!!!

Seriously, stop the stupid.

[I.R.Beast]

He needed to play with wade and bosh to win a ring... When he wins with less help then i'd put him in the company of kobe.

[NBAller]

He needed to play with wade and bosh to win a ring... When he wins with less help then i'd put him in the company of kobe.

and Kobe needed shaq, gasol. MJ needed Scottie, Rodman.

[I.R.Beast]

and Kobe needed shaq, gasol. MJ needed Scottie, Rodman.

Shaq is 1 player... Gasol is/was not a superstar... Rodman was not a superstar either... Pippen is only 1 player... niether of them needed 2 superstars to win a title.... If james was so great he wouldn't need the kind of help Jordan and kobe never had.

[NBAller]

Shaq is 1 player... Gasol is/was not a superstar... Rodman was not a superstar either... Pippen is only 1 player... niether of them needed 2 superstars to win a title.... If james was so great he wouldn't need the kind of help Jordan and kobe never had.


Cmon dude lets use our brains here. Shaq was unstoppable. Pass him the ball and get out of the way. Gasol's one of the best big men in the league.

Rodman was a defensive and rebounding specialist. Pippen was also a defensive specialst but also was great in many other aspects of the game like passing, he had elite athleticism, could put up points.

the point is to win a championship everyone needs someone. bosh is basically a space the floor jumpshooter. Wade's a different story he's a legit superstar, but the rest of the team are mainly jumpshooters themselves.

are you just bored with nothing else to do so you decide to troll, or what?

[I.R.Beast]

Cmon dude lets use our brains here. Shaq was unstoppable. Pass him the ball and get out of the way. Gasol's one of the best big men in the league.

Rodman was a defensive and rebounding specialist. Pippen was also a defensive specialst but also was great in many other aspects of the game like passing, he had elite athleticism, could put up points.

the point is to win a championship everyone needs someone. bosh is basically a space the floor jumpshooter. Wade's a different story he's a legit superstar, but the rest of the team are mainly jumpshooters themselves.

are you just bored with nothing else to do so you decide to troll, or what?
Wade + Bosh is 10 times better than just gasol.. Wade + Bush is better than just shaq... Gasol was never a suerstar...and was never dominant. Where was he ranked among PFs before joining Kobe in LA?... I don't care to see james win a title with wade and bosh as teammates... give any other superstar those guys as teammates and the results will be the same the heat might even be thinking 3peat instead of 2. You can slobber on his nuts if you want to. I see a player with more help than everyone getting way to much glory for "having it easy".

[lilgodfather1]

Cmon dude lets use our brains here. Shaq was unstoppable. Pass him the ball and get out of the way. Gasol's one of the best big men in the league.

Rodman was a defensive and rebounding specialist. Pippen was also a defensive specialst but also was great in many other aspects of the game like passing, he had elite athleticism, could put up points.

the point is to win a championship everyone needs someone. bosh is basically a space the floor jumpshooter. Wade's a different story he's a legit superstar, but the rest of the team are mainly jumpshooters themselves.

are you just bored with nothing else to do so you decide to troll, or what?
Pippen should have been an MVP the year Jordan retired. I think you can call that a superstar... Also should have won at LEAST one DPOY as the best perimiter defender of all time. I'm not saying Pippen is better than Wade, but it's fairly close. Pippen was a great player.

[Ne 1]

People that use rings as a argument when discussing which player is better than the other is just straight up stupid. Using THAT logic, Derek Fisher is just as good as Kobe. And there's some other bums i'm not aware of with like 7 rings that are even better than Kobe, because the more rings you have, the better you are!!!

Seriously, stop the stupid.
Winning can only be a criteria for elite players, players who lead their respective teams with their play and put their team mates into position to excel and Derek Fisher, although an exceptional role player, cannot be compared to all-time great elite players.

[I.R.Beast]

The media is way too gratifying of players that are doing what they should be doing given the situations they are in as players. I dont think very many hardcore fans are impressed with the fact that this team is doing whats it's doing, it's expected. They wanted titles at the cost of "respect and individual accolades etc" well that's what they got. Kobe had to prove he can win without shaq, he did that, now i want to see LBJ win without wade and/or bosh. That's fair.

[NBAller]

Wade + Bosh is 10 times better than just gasol.. Wade + Bush is better than just shaq... Gasol was never a suerstar...and was never dominant. Where was he ranked among PFs before joining Kobe in LA?... I don't care to see james win a title with wade and bosh as teammates... give any other superstar those guys as teammates and the results will be the same the heat might even be thinking 3peat instead of 2. You can slobber on his nuts if you want to. I see a player with more help than everyone getting way to much glory for "having it easy".


i'ma just put it like this. Put kobe on lebrons cavaliers team and they don't see conference finals.

[NBAller]

Winning can only be a criteria for elite players, players who lead their respective teams with their play and put their team mates into position to excel and Derek Fisher, although an exceptional role player, cannot be compared to all-time great elite players.

yeah i know all that.... but to say Kobe's better than lebron cause 5 rings > 2 = stupid.

[NBAller]

Pippen should have been an MVP the year Jordan retired. I think you can call that a superstar... Also should have won at LEAST one DPOY as the best perimiter defender of all time. I'm not saying Pippen is better than Wade, but it's fairly close. Pippen was a great player.

Yes, he was a great player and most definitely a superstar.

[Mr. Jabbar]

How can you support Celtics and defend LeBrick

apr 2013 sock puppet, prolly pauk, dont let a boston avy fool you, this guy will probably never talk about the celtics before being banned.

[K Xerxes]

Shaq is 1 player... Gasol is/was not a superstar... Rodman was not a superstar either... Pippen is only 1 player... niether of them needed 2 superstars to win a title.... If james was so great he wouldn't need the kind of help Jordan and kobe never had.

You seem pretty stubborn with your arguments, so maybe I'll regret this, but teams are made from more than just a basic measure of the number of stars/superstars on that team. Whether there is one superstar or more, the best constructed team will win a championship. And that includes role players and coaching.

For example, ask MJ if he'd have rather had Rodman in those final three title runs or this Wade? Who do you think he would say? Rodman was more valuable to that team because of the defined role he had. Context matters.

And you have got to seriously be kidding me if you consider Bosh a superstar but not Rodman back then.

[lilgodfather1]

i'ma just put it like this. Put kobe on lebrons cavaliers team and they don't see conference finals.
That's not true, or fair. You put rookie Kobe instead of rookie LeBron on the Cavs, and instead of drafting Luke Jackson :(, the Cavs draft Dwight Howard, and in all likelyhood the Cavs don't make the Jiri (FACK) trade, and end up with either Bogut, Paul, or Williams.

A team of

Paul
Kobe
anyone
Howard
Big Z is winning a title, or ten...

[NBAller]

You seem pretty stubborn with your arguments, so maybe I'll regret this, but teams are made from more than just a basic measure of the number of stars/superstars on that team. Whether there is one superstar or more, the best constructed team will win a championship. And that includes role players and coaching.

For example, ask MJ if he'd have rather had Rodman in those final three title runs or this Wade? Who do you think he would say? Rodman was more valuable to that team because of the defined role he had. Context matters.

And you have got to seriously be kidding me if you consider Bosh a superstar but not Rodman back then.

yeah, i had a few paragraphs typed out about how teams are built but deleted it cause i know how some kobe fans are... and decided it's not worth it all.

kobe and lebron are two completely different players. having kobe and wade on the same team is pointless cause they both do the same things at different levels (kobe being the better scorer). having gasol and lebron on the same team is just as stupid(not really, but they don't compliment each other as well as gasol n kobe does) as saying '5>2, kobes way better bro' cause they both facilitate.

you want complimentary teammates...which is why i love the bron+bosh duo.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Trolls fail to see lebron 1 ring as "the man", has zero value. Dude was in an epic stacked team, where every clutch shot was made by his teammates.

1 Kobe ring as 1b option alonside shaq is more valuable than lebrons single ring as "the man". Please stop giving "as the man" a bad rep...

[NBAller]

Trolls fail to see lebron 1 ring as "the man", has zero value. Dude was in an epic stacked team, where every clutch shot was made by his teammates.

1 Kobe ring as 1b option alonside shaq is more valuable than lebrons single ring as "the man". Please stop giving "as the man" a bad rep...


:lol unreal

all BS aside, to answer OPs question. LeBron is the better player, Kobe's the better scorer.

[miller-time]

Better career? No. Better player? He already is.

[NBAller]

Better career? No. Better player? He already is.

:applause:

[Ne 1]

Better career? No. Better player? He already is.Kobe has a more polished and refined game. He can score on you offensively in nearly every way possible and do it consistently.

Kobe has the better offensive game, better jumper, better post game, better on ball defense, more clutch, better overall skill set, offensive prowess, game management, maturity, killer instinct, fundamentals, foot work etc. etc. His work ethic, drive, hunger, determination, dedication to the game, desire and will to win is unmatched. Oh, and not to mention he's a 5x champion.

Kobe is pure finesse, skill and technique, the shooting guard version of Duncan. LeBron relies almost solely on his athleticism. His speed, strength, jumping ability are what makes him a great player. But just wait until LeBron reaches his 30s and looses his athleticism. He'll still be a good player, no doubt, but I doubt he'll be the same dominant force. Sort of reminds me of Vince Carter, how he was amazing when he had athleticism and when he got older he wasn't what he used to be.

Also I do think it's rightfully justified if people admire someone who dedicated time to develop their skills and work around their short-comings more than someone who just cannot be stopped because they are a 6'8 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.

[Leftimage]

Better career? No. Better player? He already is.
this

[ThaRegul8r]

For example, ask MJ if he'd have rather had Rodman in those final three title runs or this Wade? Who do you think he would say?

Well, considering the fact that the Bulls were set at SG with himself, I'm guessing he wouldn't think the Bulls needed another SG.

:confusedshrug:

[KingBeasley08]

Lebron ain't passing Kobe with another title. With two more tho, he'll be higher in my book but you'll still have people debating it. If there's any rings after that, it's not a contest

[NumberSix]

Kobe has a more polished and refined game. He can score on you offensively in nearly every way possible and do it consistently.

Kobe has the better offensive game, better jumper, better post game, better on ball defense, more clutch, better overall skill set, offensive prowess, game management, maturity, killer instinct, fundamentals, foot work etc. etc. His work ethic, drive, hunger, determination, dedication to the game, desire and will to win is unmatched. Oh, and not to mention he's a 5x champion.

Kobe is pure finesse, skill and technique, the shooting guard version of Duncan. LeBron relies almost solely on his athleticism. His speed, strength, jumping ability are what makes him a great player. But just wait until LeBron reaches his 30s and looses his athleticism. He'll still be a good player, no doubt, but I doubt he'll be the same dominant force. Sort of reminds me of Vince Carter, how he was amazing when he had athleticism and when he got older he wasn't what he used to be.

Also I do think it's rightfully justified if people admire someone who dedicated time to develop their skills and work around their short-comings more than someone who just cannot be stopped because they are a 6'8 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.
This seriously reads like a post imitating a Kobe'tard, but having read your past comments, I don't think your intentionally trying to be funny.

[pauk]

4 x MVP
2 x FMVP

vs

1 x MVP
2 x FMVP

Kindof self explanatory....

[eliteballer]

MVP's are determined by guys like Bill Simmons and Skip Bayless...they don't mean squat.

...and really. Winning MVP's with guys like Wade and Bosh on your team in a joke conference? Doesn't say a lot either.

[Round Mound]

[B]If Kobe is The Duncan of SGs then His PER would Be Close to as High as Lebron

[Magic 32]

4 x MVP
2 x FMVP

vs

1 x MVP
2 x FMVP

Kindof self explanatory....

Regular seasons..........stats........stacked team.

meh

[NBAller]

MVP's are determined by guys like Bill Simmons and Skip Bayless...they don't mean squat.

...and really. Winning MVP's with guys like Wade and Bosh on your team in a joke conference? Doesn't say a lot either.

you people really sicken me.

[Nevaeh]

People that use rings as a argument when discussing which player is better than the other is just straight up stupid. Using THAT logic, Derek Fisher is just as good as Kobe. And there's some other bums i'm not aware of with like 7 rings that are even better than Kobe, because the more rings you have, the better you are!!!

Seriously, stop the stupid.


Really though. Did you know that Pip and MJ are tied with 6 rings apiece? It's like they're Twin GOATs or something!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, Lebron is the only player that I've seen since prime Jordan and Shaq to "Literally embarrass the league" during their careers, to the point where their wins become "Ho-hum" to every other team's fans. These are what I like to call "Cheat Code Players".

Lebron grabs another one as "Da Man", and he's jumping up that top 10 list, especially after the season that he's just had.

Never being a sidekick, and leading 2 separate teams with 2 different coaches to the finals (one before even hitting his prime) is also gonna lean heavy in his favor, just so long as he stays focused.

[Hoopz2332]

Kobe has a more polished and refined game. He can score on you offensively in nearly every way possible and do it consistently.

He has the better offensive game, better jumper, better post game, better on ball defense, more clutch, better overall skill set, offensive prowess, game management, maturity, killer instinct, fundamentals, foot work etc. etc. His work ethic, drive, hunger, determination, dedication to the game, desire and will to win is unmatched. Oh, and not to mention he's a 5x champion.

Kobe is pure finesse, skill and technique, the shooting guard version of Duncan. LeBron relies almost solely on his athleticism. His speed, strength, jumping ability are what makes him a great player. But just wait until LeBron reaches his 30s and looses his athleticism. He'll still be a good player, no doubt, but I doubt he'll be the same dominant force. Sort of reminds me of Vince Carter, how he was amazing when he had athleticism and when he got older he wasn't what he used to be.

Also I do think it's rightfully justified if people admire someone who dedicated time to develop their skills and work around their short-comings more than someone who just cannot be stopped because they are a 6'8 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-m6swNon43uA/U30PnA2NhYI/AAAAAAAAG1w/qwKnuT88UTk/s1600/lebrondance1.gif

[MaxPlayer]

Yeah he looked old as fvck when he ran down and stuffed iggy.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe has a more polished and refined game. He can score on you offensively in nearly every way possible and do it consistently.

Kobe has the better offensive game, better jumper, better post game, better on ball defense, more clutch, better overall skill set, offensive prowess, game management, maturity, killer instinct, fundamentals, foot work etc. etc. His work ethic, drive, hunger, determination, dedication to the game, desire and will to win is unmatched. Oh, and not to mention he's a 5x champion.

Kobe is pure finesse, skill and technique, the shooting guard version of Duncan. LeBron relies almost solely on his athleticism. His speed, strength, jumping ability are what makes him a great player. But just wait until LeBron reaches his 30s and looses his athleticism. He'll still be a good player, no doubt, but I doubt he'll be the same dominant force. Sort of reminds me of Vince Carter, how he was amazing when he had athleticism and when he got older he wasn't what he used to be.

Also I do think it's rightfully justified if people admire someone who dedicated time to develop their skills and work around their short-comings more than someone who just cannot be stopped because they are a 6'8 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.
NE 1 seen this guy since LeBron took a giant shit on Kobe stans?

[AirBonner]

No comparison.