Ring-chasing is such a stupid term

[Rican_Havok]

Isn't that what every player and organization in the NBA should be striving towards? "Chasing the rings" and winning the NBA championship? Isn't that the ultimate goal? Organizations have to do what's in their best interest to accomplish this goal, even if it means letting go of a player that has been loyal to them for years and helped them win them many games ala the Lakers letting go of Derek Fisher. Players also have their own personal responsibility to build upon their legacy through whatever means necessary. If your current team isn't doing that for you, what's the harm in joining a team that can get it done for you ala KG leaving the Timberwolves and joining the Celtics to win his first Championship.

I'll never understand the scrutiny that comes about when players and organizations part ways in the hopes of "chasing rings" aka getting championships, especially when compared to situations in which an organization trades away a good player solely for money-saving reasons due to a cheap owner or a player leaving a team to get the big pay-day at the expense of a team's capspace, both of which no one seems to bat an eye at. In my opinion, striving to maximize the amount of championships accumulated, by whatever means necessary, will always be a more honorable goal than maximizing the amount of money on has in their bank account, especially considering the fact that even bench players are being paid millions of dollars that can allow them to live comfortably for their entire life if they budget intelligently. Nearly everyone in the NBA is guaranteed a million dollar plus contract, which in my opinion is more than enough for anyone to live off of, but only a few in the NBA get to experience the thrill and prestige of hoisting up an NBA championship trophy, the ultimate accolade the NBA can give you.

For you tl,dr people: Getting championships > getting money, but getting championships is more heavily scrutinized than getting money, and I don't understand it.

[NBAller]

I agree. Aside from making money, that's every players goal I would think.

But fans have this "hero-complex". I think fans believe that whoever drafts you into the NBA did you some huge favor therefore you owe your entire career to that team and fanbase.

It's like most of these guys that work at McDonalds, they don't think about what they would do if they had got a promotion offer or a better job opportunity. Anyone with a brain would take both offers, just like a NBA player that plays for the Bobcats would leave to play for Miami. It's just smarter and more beneficial. Who wants to be stuck at the bottom?

I think a lot of fans are just mad that these people make more than any of us ever will in a lifetime, so they want them to struggle like the rest of us. It's just stupid, like you said.

Another way to think about it is, if you're a Manager of say said McDonalds, working with a bunch of idiots that don't know how to flush the toilet or simply can't and got a opportunity to work with people equal to your capabilities, are you going to live in misery with the idiots? Or take advantage of the opportunity?

Then again, this is ISH and if we're on here we have nothing better to do, so might as well spew some stupid shit to irritate rational fans . Right?

:coleman:

[ErhnamDjinn]

how about Championship quest?

[(e)]

I really don't have a huge problem with it, but there are definitely times when I lose a lot of respect for a player who does it.

Have no issues with some vet who is on a terrible team who jumps to a contender. But when a guy on a contending team jumps ship...ehh I lose some respect for them.

[NBAller]

I really don't have a huge problem with it, but there are definitely times when I lose a lot of respect for a player who does it.

Have no issues with some vet who is on a terrible team who jumps to a contender. But when a guy on a contending team jumps ship...ehh I lose some respect for them.

I'm going to guess and say you're either a MJ or Kobe fan? aka a fan of a player that hasn't been traded/left. Therefore anyone that doesn't take the same path isn't as respectable?

[DaSeba5]

I agree. Aside from making money, that's every players goal I would think.

But fans have this "hero-complex". I think fans believe that whoever drafts you into the NBA did you some huge favor therefore you owe your entire career to that team and fanbase.

It's like most of these guys that work at McDonalds, they don't think about what they would do if they had got a promotion offer or a better job opportunity. Anyone with a brain would take both offers, just like a NBA player that plays for the Bobcats would leave to play for Miami. It's just smarter and more beneficial. Who wants to be stuck at the bottom?

I think a lot of fans are just mad that these people make more than any of us ever will in a lifetime, so they want them to struggle like the rest of us. It's just stupid, like you said.

Another way to think about it is, if you're a Manager of say said McDonalds, working with a bunch of idiots that don't know how to flush the toilet or simply can't and got a opportunity to work with people equal to your capabilities, are you going to live in misery with the idiots? Or take advantage of the opportunity?

Then again, this is ISH and if we're on here we have nothing better to do, so might as well spew some stupid shit to irritate rational fans . Right?

:coleman:

This post is spot on.

And ISH isn't really a serious place for basketball discussion. A lot of people only come on here to troll and have fun.

[ripthekik]

I agree. Aside from making money, that's every players goal I would think.

But fans have this "hero-complex". I think fans believe that whoever drafts you into the NBA did you some huge favor therefore you owe your entire career to that team and fanbase.

It's like most of these guys that work at McDonalds, they don't think about what they would do if they had got a promotion offer or a better job opportunity. Anyone with a brain would take both offers, just like a NBA player that plays for the Bobcats would leave to play for Miami. It's just smarter and more beneficial. Who wants to be stuck at the bottom?

I think a lot of fans are just mad that these people make more than any of us ever will in a lifetime, so they want them to struggle like the rest of us. It's just stupid, like you said.

Another way to think about it is, if you're a Manager of say said McDonalds, working with a bunch of idiots that don't know how to flush the toilet or simply can't and got a opportunity to work with people equal to your capabilities, are you going to live in misery with the idiots? Or take advantage of the opportunity?

Then again, this is ISH and if we're on here we have nothing better to do, so might as well spew some stupid shit to irritate rational fans . Right?

:coleman:
lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

[NBAller]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

the sad part is i honestly believe you're being serious.

[ripthekik]

the sad part is i honestly believe you're being serious.
the sad part is you typed that long post up there and focused on the wrong point. :roll: :roll: :roll:

anyone criticized any player just for leaving? Nope. Seems like you have comprehension problems :oldlol:

[(e)]

I'm going to guess and say you're either a MJ or Kobe fan? aka a fan of a player that hasn't been traded/left. Therefore anyone that doesn't take the same path isn't as respectable?
I'm a Bulls fan. I don't play that fan of a player bs. I respect different players games, but no I'm not some Kobe or MJ nut rider.

Ultimately the NBA is a business, and if someone has an opportunity to go play somewhere they want, they should do it. It's their decision.

[DaSeba5]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

I'm tired of having this argument with you. Again you act like the East went to complete shit when 3 players that never played each other in the playoffs came together. We've still had plenty of competition and good series. It's not the easy road out. He needed to leave Cleveland and move on for the better of his career. Nobody holds any loyalty to anyone. If Wade left I wouldn't feel betrayed and I would't start burning his jerseys, it's a business.

And once again, LeBron wasn't carried to a ring. The team fell behind 3 series in a row, and LeBron had to put up monster stats to help his team. He could have easily folded up and called it a season. They are more stacked than anything this year, but for the last two years they've been rather flawed.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Here's a question, if LeBron stayed and Bosh and Wade came to Cleveland is still ring chasing? If LeBron stayed and just Bosh came (that team would ruin people) would it be chasing?

[ripthekik]

I'm tired of having this argument with you. Again you act like the East went to complete shit when 3 players that never played each other in the playoffs came together. We've still had plenty of competition and good series. It's not the easy road out. He needed to leave Cleveland and move on for the better of his career. Nobody holds any loyalty to anyone. If Wade left I wouldn't feel betrayed and I would't start burning his jerseys, it's a business.

And once again, LeBron wasn't carried to a ring. The team fell behind 3 series in a row, and LeBron had to put up monster stats to help his team. He could have easily folded up and called it a season. They are more stacked than anything this year, but for the last two years they've been rather flawed.
The East was already weak, then you have 3 NBA all stars who each individually led teams in the East... join one team? Two of them were top 3 NBA players. Thats not the easy way out? Twist this all you want but there's no explanation other than "easy way out". I respect you for backing your team.. but that's some solid hard facts there. And yes the East went to shiit. Look at the bucks in the playoffs right now. You guys are playing them, it should be more obvious to you than anyone that the east is crap now.

Lebron wasn't carried, I don't think anyone has said that too. But you can't deny he has a stacked team, Wade is still a top 2 SG (prop top right now) and Bosh, Ray, Battier, etc.

[jzek]

Every athlete chases rings at some point. Some get lucky and good players join their team while some go to other teams with good players. In the end, the goal is the same - to get a championship ring.

[Solefade]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

You act as if other teams have absolutely no chance against the Heat. If LeBron wanted the really really easy route, he would have joined the Bulls especially now that we know how good Derrick Rose is.

[NBAller]

"If he can't do it all by himself, he isn't very respectable" - ISH tardlogic

[DaSeba5]

The East was already weak, then you have 3 NBA all stars who each individually led teams in the East... join one team? Two of them were top 3 NBA players. Thats not the easy way out? Twist this all you want but there's no explanation other than "easy way out". I respect you for backing your team.. but that's some solid hard facts there. And yes the East went to shiit. Look at the bucks in the playoffs right now. You guys are playing them, it should be more obvious to you than anyone that the east is crap now.

Lebron wasn't carried, I don't think anyone has said that too. But you can't deny he has a stacked team, Wade is still a top 2 SG (prop top right now) and Bosh, Ray, Battier, etc.

The East isn't shit this year because of what Miami did. The East is shit because of all the injuries. Players like Rondo and Rose are out.

[HEAT111]

The East was already weak, then you have 3 NBA all stars who each individually led teams in the East... join one team? Two of them were top 3 NBA players. Thats not the easy way out? Twist this all you want but there's no explanation other than "easy way out". I respect you for backing your team.. but that's some solid hard facts there. And yes the East went to shiit. Look at the bucks in the playoffs right now. You guys are playing them, it should be more obvious to you than anyone that the east is crap now.

Lebron wasn't carried, I don't think anyone has said that too. But you can't deny he has a stacked team, Wade is still a top 2 SG (prop top right now) and Bosh, Ray, Battier, etc.

You may be on to something but most the teams that have won the championship are usually stacked or very well coached.

[NBAller]

You may be on to something but most the teams that have won the championship are usually stacked or very well coached.

That's the definition of a championship team

[uoykcuf]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

Not sure what your agenda is, but by your definition, James and Bosh didn't ring chase--because Miami wasn't stacked when they decided to go there and their record for 09-10 was 47-35. I know most people already know this but it's easy to forget. However, anyone who joined the Heat after they won it all would obviously then fit this "ring chasing" criteria.

Essentially, the Lakers talent at the beginning of the 2012 season = Heat at the beginning of the 2010 season. The difference is one played close to their potential and the other played with about half and had poor on&off court chemistry.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

I don't think people hate players for ring chasing. I think people hate players for the way they go about doing it. The way Steve Nash signed with the Lakers was acceptable and PHX fans still respect him. Lebron on the other hand totally disrespected his former team and his old fan base. That is where the respect is lost.

[livingby3's]

I do not understand why people want LeBron to stick his ass in Cleveland. a player only got that 10 to 15 years to do his thing. and of this decade or so they will only have around 3 years of peak forms in them.
Some may stick around longer i.e Nash, Kobe. For those unfortunates, they may already be out of the game before we witness their prime, most of which robbed by injuries. We never got to see what Penny, Hill, and recent stars Roy and Oden could achieve in the NBA.

For the old dudes 'ring-chasing' at their dying old age, people will still discredit them as 'a shell of the past' or just living on the court by his name. So is it a bad thing to ring chase early, while they still play in their primes? Is it not a blessing to see them win Finals in their peak forms?
Say if Nash had ditch Phoenix early in his prime to join the Magic with Dwight and won the 2009 championship. He would have been the best player on the team earning his ring and fmvp. or would u rather see old ass Nash winning in LA who's only contribution was to bring the ball up the mid court and dumps it to Kobe.

It's commonly said that real Alphas should stay in their city and attract Betas to join them, not the other way round. But fact being some franchises, as good as their star may be, just can't build their teams right, or that their markets weren't big enough to attract other stars. Not every is a Kobe or Duncan, some have to pave their career path. If LBJ had stayed in Cleveland, people will still be laughing at his 0 titles and padding his stats for 'worthless MVPs', but he played his contract up. He did did some shits here and there making dramas and all, but I'm glad he brought his talents to south beach where we could witness the best player in the NBA perform at a bigger stage, not just carrying his crappy team to the POs every season to get bumped in the R2 or 3.

And give credits where it's due. He's playing his ass off and being a true leader on the court, not just riding his teammates to easy titles. Earning everything awarded to him out there.

[ripthekik]

You act as if other teams have absolutely no chance against the Heat. If LeBron wanted the really really easy route, he would have joined the Bulls especially now that we know how good Derrick Rose is.
No one absolutely has a chance against them right now. They'll prove how correct I am this playoffs.

Again, I must emphasize, no one is giving Lebron crap for just leaving Cleveland. The dumbass up there that made that whole post about mcdonalds has no clue what he is talking about. That's what free agency for. Plenty of stars leave the team that drafted them and go somewhere else.

It's the stacking and ringchasing that is the move that all NBA fans should look down upon. When you're old like Gary Payton or Juwan Howard, fine. No one gives you crap for it. You earned to right to ringchase with your entire career. Those players spend their primes COMPETING. But when you got ringchase in your prime? :facepalm

[Goldrush25]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

So you're saying an athlete can go to a good team, but he should knowingly and willingly sign with a team that would give him a tougher degree of difficulty in regards to winning a championship, rather than the path of least resistance?

Isn't that a counterintuitive mindset when your goal is winning? Why would an athlete intentionally make the goal tougher? I'm not talking about Lebron. I'm talking about anyone.

[HEAT111]

I don't think people hate players for ring chasing. I think people hate players for the way they go about doing it. The way Steve Nash signed with the Lakers was acceptable and PHX fans still respect him. Lebron on the other hand totally disrespected his former team and his old fan base. That is where the respect is lost.


His only mistake was not letting the organization know and the fan base. It was all part of the charity though, he wasn't suppose to say whether he was leaving or not.

[Ne 1]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

Exactly. It's completely different when the best player in the league, jumps on to a team with the "other" best player in the NBA who had also been putting together historical statistical seasons along with another top 15-20 perennial All-Star.

Imagine Walton and Kareem joining in '77, or Magic and Bird joining from '86-'88, Jordan and Hakeem or Barkley joining in '93, Shaq and Duncan joining around '99-'03 or Russell and Chamberlain teaming up in the 60s, because you know why? These guys were not only thought of as the two best players in the league, but also at the same level as the other guy, just like LeBron and Wade. They colluded together in free agency to create by far the most talented team in the league. LeBron knew the route to a championship and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been playing anywhere else. Hence why he said he believed they could win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us" and why LeBron joked that Pat Riley could return to his playing days and play alongside them and that it would still be easy.

Basically LeBron's mindset is "I need this ring to be considered great, what's the easiest way to get it" not "I want to rip your heart out and prove I'm the best."

[NBAller]

No one absolutely has a chance against them right now. They'll prove how correct I am this playoffs.

Again, I must emphasize, no one is giving Lebron crap for just leaving Cleveland. The dumbass up there that made that whole post about mcdonalds has no clue what he is talking about. That's what free agency for. Plenty of stars leave the team that drafted them and go somewhere else.

It's the stacking and ringchasing that is the move that all NBA fans should look down upon. When you're old like Gary Payton or Juwan Howard, fine. No one gives you crap for it. You earned to right to ringchase with your entire career. Those players spend their primes COMPETING. But when you got ringchase in your prime? :facepalm

it makes sense to everyone but you, go figure.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

His only mistake was not letting the organization know and the fan base. It was all part of the charity though, he wasn't suppose to say whether he was leaving or not.
That is still a poor way to treat fans who absolutely loved you and looked at you like a god. In a way I think Lebron kind of regrets leaving. I mean they are more successful now but the Heat fans are so terrible.

[HEAT111]

No one absolutely has a chance against them right now. They'll prove how correct I am this playoffs.

Again, I must emphasize, no one is giving Lebron crap for just leaving Cleveland. The dumbass up there that made that whole post about mcdonalds has no clue what he is talking about. That's what free agency for. Plenty of stars leave the team that drafted them and go somewhere else.

It's the stacking and ringchasing that is the move that all NBA fans should look down upon. When you're old like Gary Payton or Juwan Howard, fine. No one gives you crap for it. You earned to right to ringchase with your entire career. Those players spend their primes COMPETING. But when you got ringchase in your prime? :facepalm


Then tell us, why couldn't Magic Johnson be drafted to another team? He wanted to play with the Lakers because he knew he'd fit with them as well and has a perfect chance COMPETING for championships.

[Ne 1]

The biggest tragedy in the whole "decision" fiasco to the fact we will never see this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjOznE7ILek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA0ryRXA7eo

The Best match-up in the league is gone.

LeBron vs Wade in the ECF every year would have been an unbelievable rivalry. The gutless clown has no competitive spirit, he didn't even want to beat his contemporaries but chose the easy path.

[Solefade]

The East was already weak, then you have 3 NBA all stars who each individually led teams in the East... join one team? Two of them were top 3 NBA players. Thats not the easy way out? Twist this all you want but there's no explanation other than "easy way out". I respect you for backing your team.. but that's some solid hard facts there. And yes the East went to shiit. Look at the bucks in the playoffs right now. You guys are playing them, it should be more obvious to you than anyone that the east is crap now.

Lebron wasn't carried, I don't think anyone has said that too. But you can't deny he has a stacked team, Wade is still a top 2 SG (prop top right now) and Bosh, Ray, Battier, etc.

Wade was hurt, Bosh didn't play. You sound and seem like you don't watch any other team besides the Lakers.

[Suguru101]

No one absolutely has a chance against them right now. They'll prove how correct I am this playoffs.

Again, I must emphasize, no one is giving Lebron crap for just leaving Cleveland. The dumbass up there that made that whole post about mcdonalds has no clue what he is talking about. That's what free agency for. Plenty of stars leave the team that drafted them and go somewhere else.

It's the stacking and ringchasing that is the move that all NBA fans should look down upon. When you're old like Gary Payton or Juwan Howard, fine. No one gives you crap for it. You earned to right to ringchase with your entire career. Those players spend their primes COMPETING. But when you got ringchase in your prime? :facepalm

:biggums:

Are you actually serious? I mean, if LeBron left Cleveland because he wanted to win a championship... why would he go to a middle of the road team? Wouldn't he go to the best team possible to win?

But no, LeBron shouldn't have gone to a "stacked" team, he should've gone to a crappy team and try to do it all.... just like when he averaged 38, 9, 7 in the 2009 ECF agaisnt Orlando yet saw the rest of his team play like scrubs.

And i thought you were a good poster while i was lurking. :facepalm

[HEAT111]

That is still a poor way to treat fans who absolutely loved you and looked at you like a god. In a way I think Lebron kind of regrets leaving. I mean they are more successful now but the Heat fans are so terrible.


Let's not be hypocrites here, everyone has their bandwagon moments :lol He regrets how he did it though if you remember watching the post-game interview after eliminating the Celtics in 2011.

[NBAller]

it makes sense to everyone but you, go figure.

bump this again because he's thick.

[ripthekik]

:biggums:

Are you actually serious? I mean, if LeBron left Cleveland because he wanted to win a championship... why would he go to a middle of the road team? Wouldn't he go to the best team possible to win?

But no, LeBron shouldn't have gone to a "stacked" team, he should've gone to a crappy team and try to do it all.... just like when he averaged 38, 9, 7 in the 2009 ECF agaisnt Orlando yet saw the rest of his team play like scrubs.

And i thought you were a good poster while i was lurking. :facepalm
:facepalm

I'm not saying he should go to another scrub team. There were plenty of teams out there. Plenty of teams that didn't have another TOP 3 player and Top 5 PF! Is there any other NBA star that went stacking in his prime?

He did this on purpose, stacking up while at the same time getting rid of competition. There really were better options if he were more of a competitor.

[ripthekik]

bump this again because he's thick.
Your first post in this thread proved how stupid you are and you want my attention?

How about only you lebron fans refuse to acknowledge the fact that he took the easy way out in 2010?

It's so clear that he took a shortcut.. there's no other way to explain it.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Let's not be hypocrites here, everyone has their bandwagon moments :lol He regrets how he did it though if you remember watching the post-game interview after eliminating the Celtics in 2011.
I just think it is possible that Lebron misses people worshiping him. I think when he was getting all the attention it bothered him to let down the fans. But now he won it all and he probably misses the fans who loved him.

[NBAller]

Your first post in this thread proved how stupid you are and you want my attention?

How about only you lebron fans refuse to acknowledge the fact that he took the easy way out in 2010?

It's so clear that he took a shortcut.. there's no other way to explain it.

I don't want your attention, I want you to go figure it out. After you figure it out, then we'll continue more basketball talk mk lil boy?

[HEAT111]

That's like saying and in case you watch wrestling. Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson should have stayed in wrestling to entertain his fans but...nooo, he went to Hollywood for more money. No one doesn't talk about that because there wasn't no harm and I applaud anyone. LeBron did the right decision, did you see the last Cleveland game? There were Cleveland citizens in Heat uniforms...

Also, you got to understand is that these guys have also been through hell during their childhood. To come to this point in their lives is really remarkable.

[HEAT111]

I just think it is possible that Lebron misses people worshiping him. I think when he was getting all the attention it bothered him to let down the fans. But now he won it all and he probably misses the fans who loved him.


You do realize, he was in first place in jersey sales? That just means he likeable...he doesn't care about the attention. He still has fans..its not like he's ruler of planet earth.

[Goldrush25]

:facepalm

I'm not saying he should go to another scrub team. There were plenty of teams out there. Plenty of teams that didn't have another TOP 3 player and Top 5 PF! Is there any other NBA star that went stacking in his prime?

He did this on purpose, stacking up while at the same time getting rid of competition. There really were better options if he were more of a competitor.

You probably didn't see my earlier post but I addressed one of your answers. Is it your assertion that free agents should knowingly and willingly chose a team that would give them a higher degree of difficulty in regards to winning a title? To me that seems like counterintuitive thinking when your goal is winning a championship. Why wouldn't you want to give yourself the very best opportunity to win one. Am I missing something?

If you're trying to hit on a woman, do you put dog poop on your face just for the challenge of seeing if you can still get her number? LOL. Come on man.

[Solefade]

Your first post in this thread proved how stupid you are and you want my attention?

How about only you lebron fans refuse to acknowledge the fact that he took the easy way out in 2010?

It's so clear that he took a shortcut.. there's no other way to explain it.

What don't you understand that Cleveland's front office and organization was second tier compared to the likes of Heat or Lakers? NO ONE wanted to go to Cleveland. Since his GM was incapable of recruiting players, he left.

Regardless, this doesn't justify how he left Cleveland. But then again, he doesn't owe Cleveland shit, he's brought way more to the organization than the organization has ever given back to him.

[uoykcuf]

The biggest tragedy in the whole "decision" fiasco to the fact we will never see this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjOznE7ILek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA0ryRXA7eo

The Best match-up in the league is gone.

LeBron vs Wade in the ECF every year would have been an unbelievable rivalry. The gutless clown has no competitive spirit, he didn't even want to beat his contemporaries but chose the easy path.

Best match-up in the league? They don't even play the same positions (or more importantly, there's a 4 inch, ~40lbs. difference in physiques) :facepalm

Stop acting like this was anywhere near the best match-up simply to rain on their parade. Best regular season match in the East? I guess so. The Heat were going nowhere after their 2009 finish and BOTH of them wanted to play with each other.

LeBron didn't team-up with Durant or Melo, who are always going to be better "match-ups" because of the less variation in height and size (Durant being so long makes a little up for his lack of muscle), not to mention they typically guard one another for more than a few stretches in a game. Oh, and they also happen to be the most dominant players.

[sundizz]

Actually there is NO reason other teams/players shouldn't do this. I respect Lebron, Wade and Bosh for doing this. To win the chip you need to have good players around you.

If other players wanted a chip so damn bad they'd sign a deal for not max money. There is nothing stopping players from joining up with other great players EXCEPT money. If a superstar values a ring that much they'd sign for less and allow other good players to join there team. It's a catch 22. Players want to get paid, and they want to win chips.

If someone (such as Bron) told the Cavs he is willing to take a $1 salary a year so that they can sign other players everyone would hate him for that too. He makes a ton a year on his endorsements anyways so getting that 'max money' is also a pride thing.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

You do realize, he was in first place in jersey sales? That just means he likeable...he doesn't care about the attention. He still has fans..its not like he's ruler of planet earth.
Actually Lebron DOES care about attention. Everything he does would prove that fact. "The Decision" was designed for attention and views. He wants to be the richest and most loved sports figure of all time. I think he is slowly learning in Miami that he took the shallow path. Fans like him down there if they win but they don't really love him. Having real fans isn't something he can get back. He was born in Akron, Ohio. When his career is over he is going to regret " not bringing a title to Cleveland".

[Rose'sACL]

Your first post in this thread proved how stupid you are and you want my attention?

How about only you lebron fans refuse to acknowledge the fact that he took the easy way out in 2010?

It's so clear that he took a shortcut.. there's no other way to explain it.
all your posts prove that you are the biggest idiot on these boards. guys like Mr. Jabbar and number six know that they are trolling. you actually believe in what you are writing. you need help because you don't love basketball, you just hate a player. you whole account, your avatar is to hate a player instead of first loving the game.

[ripthekik]

What don't you understand that Cleveland's front office and organization was second tier compared to the likes of Heat or Lakers? NO ONE wanted to go to Cleveland. Since his GM was incapable of recruiting players, he left.

Regardless, this doesn't justify how he left Cleveland. But then again, he doesn't owe Cleveland shit, he's brought way more to the organization than the organization has ever given back to him.
I dont know if anyone else if arguing that, but leaving Cleveland is not something he did wrong. I've never blamed him for that, I'll leave it at that.

and now:
I have no problem with Heat fans- of course they have to cheer for their team, and Lebron fans who appreciate his style of basketball. But despite that, I don't see how anyone can deny with a straight face that he took the easy way out and ring-chased.

Here are the facts:
-Lebron was the best NBA player in 2010, in his prime.
-He joined the team of a Top 3 NBA player, Wade, who was a proven NBA Champion
-He not only joined that Top 3 player, but he also joined a Top 5 PF.
-This has never happened in NBA history.. 3 guys in their prime joining one team together.

If you are a Heat fan or Lebron fan and you like this move, ok. But are you really denying that this was a easy move? Made to ring-chase? I don't think anyone can. It's basically cold hard facts staring you at the face.

If that move wasn't made to make his life the EASIEST way possible, FASTEST way to win rings, LOWEST compeitition possible, then what is?

[Suguru101]

:facepalm

I'm not saying he should go to another scrub team. There were plenty of teams out there. Plenty of teams that didn't have another TOP 3 player and Top 5 PF! Is there any other NBA star that went stacking in his prime?

He did this on purpose, stacking up while at the same time getting rid of competition. There really were better options if he were more of a competitor.

Well, now i kind of get what you're saying. But when i looked at the 2010 big market teams... Chicago would've been alright since Rose hadn't blown up yet, then what else? Nets? Knicks? Clippers? He was absolutely going to a big market, so there weren't many choices.

And he wasn't going to Orlando or San Antonio.. much less LA or Boston. And about other stars ring-chasing in their primes: Shaq, Rodman, Melo... Kobe asked for a trade because there weren't pieces around him.

So while maybe he did stack the deck, it would've been idiotic not to go to the best situation possible just to "keep things fair"

My bad if i seem so confrontational, i just have a very different opinion. :cheers:

[Rake2204]

There's most certainly folks out there with an agenda against LeBron James. Whether they be Cavaliers fans, fans of James' rivals, or just flat out people who don't like the look of LeBron himself, there's a lot of people out there like that who exist. I think these people will sometimes make strange arguments about why they think LeBron moving to another team was wrong as a thinly veiled means of criticizing James as a player and person.

However, I believe there's also a large group of people who are absent of an agenda but still had an issue with his move to Miami. I am one of those people. As a fan of the NBA and basketball in general, something just felt off when I discovered James would be headed to Miami. Other players had signed to play alongside big talent before, but I never felt as poorly as when James made his move.

I've said this before, but I think I felt it went beyond, "I just want the best chance to win." It felt like someone was trying to take the quickest and easiest route to foregoing competition. It was like the three 6'6'' D-1 players at the park insisting upon being on the same team then feeling accomplished once they dismantled their high school-level opponents.

I think a lot of my issue stems from the lack of importance I place on championship rings when labeling my best basketball players of all-time. Being a team game, I don't feel all championships were created equal. I find the "This great player has ____ championships and this great player only has _____, so the first player's obviously better" argument to be one of the great misnomers in all of sports.

So in that regard, the feeling of James attempting to win a ring at all costs, even if that means attempting to create a team improbably juiced at nearly every single role, struck me the wrong way. It felt like someone was trying their best to make the game as noncompetitive as possible, and then expecting praise for his wonderful accomplishment.

I don't hate LeBron James, but I certainly do not root for the Heat. I'm a Pistons fan, but I really enjoyed James' time in Cleveland. As a fan of the game, that was fun because there was more of a feeling of James going out and taking it against all comers, regardless of how big the other markets were or how stacked they were. James was awesome enough to lead the way and made normal teammates look outstanding. So to go from that to James leading an evil empire where he's still the best player in the game, but now also running alongside those he used to try to fight through.... it's a real bummer.

[Asiantastic]

The majority of Apr 2013 posters seem to be on LeBron's nuts. Either the amount of "Heat" fans have really multiplied this much or it's just a group of LeBronites with multiple accounts.

This forum is pretty unbearable nowadays.

[NBAller]

If I wanted to be known as the best person to play in the NBA, and I have ALL the skills to give myself that title, but I don't have the rings (rings being something TEAMS WIN, not INDIVIDUALS) then I'm going to go find people that will help me get those rings...and I'm going to do it while I'm still fairly young and in my prime so that I can get as much rings as possible.

If rings was not part of the equation when discussing who's the best player, then **** it, i'll stay in Cleveland.

[Rose'sACL]

The majority of Apr 2013 posters seem to be on LeBron's nuts. Either the amount of "Heat" fans have really multiplied this much or it's just a group of LeBronites with multiple accounts.

This forum is pretty unbearable nowadays.
and the majority of old members use april 2013 as an excuse to not give any fact or a good reason to back their statement. i have given 4-5 posts with great stats-reasons and i didn't get a reply from old users. just because someone likes a player you don't like doesn't mean that they are wrong.

[HEAT111]

Actually Lebron DOES care about attention. Everything he does would prove that fact. "The Decision" was designed for attention and views. He wants to be the richest and most loved sports figure of all time. I think he is slowly learning in Miami that he took the shallow path. Fans like him down there if they win but they don't really love him. Having real fans isn't something he can get back. He was born in Akron, Ohio. When his career is over he is going to regret " not bringing a title to Cleveland".


He's a celebrity, he gets it all the time. Why would one want it...when you get it 24/7. That doesn't has anything to with the "the Decision" :oldlol:





I dont know if anyone else if arguing that, but leaving Cleveland is not something he did wrong. I've never blamed him for that, I'll leave it at that.

and now:
I have no problem with Heat fans- of course they have to cheer for their team, and Lebron fans who appreciate his style of basketball. But despite that, I don't see how anyone can deny with a straight face that he took the easy way out and ring-chased.

Here are the facts:
-Lebron was the best NBA player in 2010, in his prime.
-He joined the team of a Top 3 NBA player, Wade, who was a proven NBA Champion
-He not only joined that Top 3 player, but he also joined a Top 5 PF.
-This has never happened in NBA history.. 3 guys in their prime joining one team together.

If you are a Heat fan or Lebron fan and you like this move, ok. But are you really denying that this was a easy move? Made to ring-chase? I don't think anyone can. It's basically cold hard facts staring you at the face.

If that move wasn't made to make his life the EASIEST way possible, FASTEST way to win rings, LOWEST compeitition possible, then what is?
Read more at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8485257#uqx0hptXMCEFudoc.99


Maybe people with dreams of moving to a better career path should just forget about it and continue working in McDonalds for the rest of their lives, that's loyalty, right?

[ripthekik]

You probably didn't see my earlier post but I addressed one of your answers. Is it your assertion that free agents should knowingly and willingly chose a team that would give them a higher degree of difficulty in regards to winning a title? To me that seems like counterintuitive thinking when your goal is winning a championship. Why wouldn't you want to give yourself the very best opportunity to win one. Am I missing something?

If you're trying to hit on a woman, do you put dog poop on your face just for the challenge of seeing if you can still get her number? LOL. Come on man.
Yes, I see your point. But you gotta to see from the point of view that Lebron James was the best NBA player, at his prime, in 2010.

Imagine MJ coming back from retirement.. and he was a free agent. Should he just be like.. hey, Rockets are the best team now, my chances to win a ring is the highest! Let me join them.

THAT, is a huge difference, from wanting to go to a team to compete as best as you can and try to win a ring legitimately.


Well, now i kind of get what you're saying. But when i looked at the 2010 big market teams... Chicago would've been alright since Rose hadn't blown up yet, then what else? Nets? Knicks? Clippers? He was absolutely going to a big market, so there weren't many choices.

And he wasn't going to Orlando or San Antonio.. much less LA or Boston. And about other stars ring-chasing in their primes: Shaq, Rodman, Melo... Kobe asked for a trade because there weren't pieces around him.

So while maybe he did stack the deck, it would've been idiotic not to go to the best situation possible just to "keep things fair"

My bad if i seem so confrontational, i just have a very different opinion. :cheers:
No problem man. I really wished he would have gave NY a chance. That was the perfect place for him to build his legacy.. a dying franchise with fans eager for a savior.. a place that hasn't win championship in years.. it would be all too perfect..

and of course bulls, along with some other teams were fine too. But yea you got my point..

[insidehoops]

Absolutely nothing wrong with a player, in free agency, signing with whatever team he wants.

Not that this matters, but LeBron's supporting cast on the Cavs was mostly junk. He kept dragging them to the top of the standings.

Perfectly fine for him to stay and keep playing with a blah squad. Perfectly fine for him to move on and join a better team. Up to him.

[Ne 1]

:facepalm

I'm not saying he should go to another scrub team. There were plenty of teams out there. Plenty of teams that didn't have another TOP 3 player and Top 5 PF! Is there any other NBA star that went stacking in his prime?

He did this on purpose, stacking up while at the same time getting rid of competition. There really were better options if he were more of a competitor.

Everyone looks on paper and says the Cavs sucked, but they were always an elite defensive and elite rebounding team under Mike Brown (look at the Cavs turn around after they hired him) and in LeBron's last two years, one of the top 3 point shooting teams. It's pretty much the same formula in Miami: surround LeBron with shooters and scrappy defenders/rebounders and let him control the offense. Only (and big) difference is he's playing with another superstar who can get his own shot anytime in Wade and a top 5 PF/stretch 4 who was the face of a franchise and who would be the best player on nearly every other team in the Eastern Conference and he's a freaking third option in Miami.

It's not that LeBron left the Cavs, that's not the issue people have with the "decision." The thing is that he portrayed himself like he was some hometown hero in order to build his fan base up their only to embarrass them on national TV. He was the one who said "I got a goal, and it's a huge goal, and that's to bring an NBA championship here to Cleveland, and I won't stop until I get it." and "It

[ripthekik]

Maybe people with dreams of moving to a better career path should just forget about it and continue working in McDonalds for the rest of their lives, that's loyalty, right?
Come on man, don't go down NBAller's path. Nobody said that. Not even me. I have said maybe 3 times in this thread down.. leaving Cleveland is not a problem.

And ladies and gentlemen.. if you all think I am just a lebron hater and can't take my point of view.. take it from this man. real long post, but just the truth. I expected every NBA fan to have this same point of view.


There's most certainly folks out there with an agenda against LeBron James. Whether they be Cavaliers fans, fans of James' rivals, or just flat out people who don't like the look of LeBron himself, there's a lot of people out there like that who exist. I think these people will sometimes make strange arguments about why they think LeBron moving to another team was wrong as a thinly veiled means of criticizing James as a player and person.

However, I believe there's also a large group of people who are absent of an agenda but still had an issue with his move to Miami. I am one of those people. As a fan of the NBA and basketball in general, something just felt off when I discovered James would be headed to Miami. Other players had signed to play alongside big talent before, but I never felt as poorly as when James made his move.

I've said this before, but I think I felt it went beyond, "I just want the best chance to win." It felt like someone was trying to take the quickest and easiest route to foregoing competition. It was like the three 6'6'' D-1 players at the park insisting upon being on the same team then feeling accomplished once they dismantled their high school-level opponents.

I think a lot of my issue stems from the lack of importance I place championship rings when labeling my best basketball players of all-time. Being a team game, I don't feel all championships were created equal. I find the "This great player has ____ championships and this great player only has _____, so the first player's obviously better" argument to be one of the great misnomers in all of sports.

So in that regard, the feeling of James attempting to win a ring at all costs, even if that means attempting to create a team improbably juiced at nearly every single role, stuck me the wrong way. It felt like someone was trying their best to make the game as noncompetitive as possible, and then expecting praise for his wonderful accomplishment.

I don't hate LeBron James, but I certainly do not root for the Heat. I'm a Pistons fan, but I really enjoyed James' time in Cleveland. As a fan of the game, that was fun because there was more of a feeling of James going out and taking it against all comers, regardless of how big the other markets were or how stacked they were. James was awesome enough to lead the way and made normal teammates look outstanding. So to go from that to James leading an evil empire where he's still the best player in the game, but now also running alongside those he used to try to fight through.... it's a real bummer.

[Solefade]

I dont know if anyone else if arguing that, but leaving Cleveland is not something he did wrong. I've never blamed him for that, I'll leave it at that.

and now:
I have no problem with Heat fans- of course they have to cheer for their team, and Lebron fans who appreciate his style of basketball. But despite that, I don't see how anyone can deny with a straight face that he took the easy way out and ring-chased.

Here are the facts:
-Lebron was the best NBA player in 2010, in his prime.
-He joined the team of a Top 3 NBA player, Wade, who was a proven NBA Champion
-He not only joined that Top 3 player, but he also joined a Top 5 PF.
-This has never happened in NBA history.. 3 guys in their prime joining one team together.

If you are a Heat fan or Lebron fan and you like this move, ok. But are you really denying that this was a easy move? Made to ring-chase? I don't think anyone can. It's basically cold hard facts staring you at the face.

If that move wasn't made to make his life the EASIEST way possible, FASTEST way to win rings, LOWEST compeitition possible, then what is?

That's fine, you can call it ring chasing or whatever but you totally don't give credit where credit is due.

You can look at it like this: Do you think his reputation and legacy would have been more prominent if he stayed in Cleveland and only won one ring for his entire career? Or if he joins the Heat and wins at least 3-4 rings as the man with D. Wade?

And yes he would have won only one ring in Cleveland because they've been a top 5 draft team every year since he's left--even with Kyrie Irving.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Actually, ripthekik is spot on. Outside Cleveland, people wouldn't care if Lebron signed w/ Chicago or NY. Just the truth.

[Nash]

Here is the thing, nobody will remember Lebron having a stacked team because he's the star of the team. Do people talk about Bird being on a stacked team? Do people underrate Magic or Kareems legacy because they were on a stacked team? What people will remember is all his championships, his stats and his MVP's.

The BS guys like ripthekik are talking about will never even be on anyones mind once its all over and done.

[NBAller]

There's most certainly folks out there with an agenda against LeBron James. Whether they be Cavaliers fans, fans of James' rivals, or just flat out people who don't like the look of LeBron himself, there's a lot of people out there like that who exist. I think these people will sometimes make strange arguments about why they think LeBron moving to another team was wrong as a thinly veiled means of criticizing James as a player and person.

However, I believe there's also a large group of people who are absent of an agenda but still had an issue with his move to Miami. I am one of those people. As a fan of the NBA and basketball in general, something just felt off when I discovered James would be headed to Miami. Other players had signed to play alongside big talent before, but I never felt as poorly as when James made his move.

I've said this before, but I think I felt it went beyond, "I just want the best chance to win." It felt like someone was trying to take the quickest and easiest route to foregoing competition. It was like the three 6'6'' D-1 players at the park insisting upon being on the same team then feeling accomplished once they dismantled their high school-level opponents.
that's a bit disrespectful to the rest of the pros. other than that, good post.
I think a lot of my issue stems from the lack of importance I place on championship rings when labeling my best basketball players of all-time. Being a team game, I don't feel all championships were created equal. I find the "This great player has ____ championships and this great player only has _____, so the first player's obviously better" argument to be one of the great misnomers in all of sports.

So in that regard, the feeling of James attempting to win a ring at all costs, even if that means attempting to create a team improbably juiced at nearly every single role, struck me the wrong way. It felt like someone was trying their best to make the game as noncompetitive as possible, and then expecting praise for his wonderful accomplishment.

I don't hate LeBron James, but I certainly do not root for the Heat. I'm a Pistons fan, but I really enjoyed James' time in Cleveland. As a fan of the game, that was fun because there was more of a feeling of James going out and taking it against all comers, regardless of how big the other markets were or how stacked they were. James was awesome enough to lead the way and made normal teammates look outstanding. So to go from that to James leading an evil empire where he's still the best player in the game, but now also running alongside those he used to try to fight through.... it's a real bummer.

:applause:

[ripthekik]

:applause:
Still think I'm the only one that think this way? Glad another poster finally made you read and learn something. This is what fans outside of Miami and Lebron fans think.


Here is the thing, nobody will remember Lebron having a stacked team because he's the star of the team. Do people talk about Bird being on a stacked team? Do people underrate Magic or Kareems legacy because they were on a stacked team? What people will remember is all his championships, his stats and his MVP's.

The BS guys like ripthekik are talking about will never even be on anyones mind once its all over and done.
So maybe people will forget about in the future. That's not my concern. But you just admitted what I said was true didn't you? Because your comeback was, so what, people will forget about it in the future.

People forgetting about it in the future, doesn't change the fact of what it is now, and what OUR generation knows.

[Crafty]

Here is the thing, nobody will remember Lebron having a stacked team because he's the star of the team. Do people talk about Bird being on a stacked team? Do people underrate Magic or Kareems legacy because they were on a stacked team? What people will remember is all his championships, his stats and his MVP's.

The BS guys like ripthekik are talking about will never even be on anyones mind once its all over and done.
But now trolls exist

[HEAT111]

Come on man, don't go down NBAller's path. Nobody said that. Not even me. I have said maybe 3 times in this thread down.. leaving Cleveland is not a problem.

And ladies and gentlemen.. if you all think I am just a lebron hater and can't take my point of view.. take it from this man. real long post, but just the truth. I expected every NBA fan to have this same point of view.


You got to understand before you post something, everyone's life is different and things turn out to be different. Whether if Lebron would have gone to another team, i'm sure things will also be different. The point is, you got to give credit where is due and the storylines that are currently being build up. Like I said earlier, I don't know what you're trying to pull here. Things are just meant to be and you got to live with it.

[Solefade]

Actually, ripthekik is spot on. Outside Cleveland, people wouldn't care if Lebron signed w/ Chicago or NY. Just the truth.

That's not true, he's scrutinized for "taking the easy way out". The Chicago Bulls team was ready-built to win a championship the same year he went to Miami and it would have been waaaay easier for him to win with D. Rose, Noah, and all of those great role players. He would have been scrutinized just as much if not more in Chicago.

[NBAller]

Still think I'm the only one that think this way? Glad another poster finally made you read and learn something. This is what fans outside of Miami and Lebron fans think.


So maybe people will forget about in the future. That's not my concern. But you just admitted what I said was true didn't you? Because your comeback was, so what, people will forget about it in the future.

People forgetting about it in the future, doesn't change the fact of what it is now, and what OUR generation knows.

I'm sure there's many more of you out there. All I said was it's a good post.

[ripthekik]

You got to understand before you post something, everyone's life is different and things turn out to be different. Whether if Lebron would have gone to another team, i'm sure things will also be different. The point is, you got to give credit where is due and the storylines that are currently being build up. Like I said earlier, I don't know what you're trying to pull here. Things are just meant to be and you got to live with it.
Well, I'm not sure what you're asking me to give credit to. This thread is about ring-chasing. We're not talking about last year's championship or this year. That is a different topic.

Since we're basically talking about the decision that took place in 2010, my opinion, along with other NBA fans, is that it was an easy way out, and he was ring-chasing. Whatever happened after is another story. But with all the facts of 2010, I can't see anyone denying it so.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's not true, he's scrutinized for "taking the easy way out". The Chicago Bulls team was ready-built to win a championship the same year he went to Miami and it would have been waaaay easier for him to win with D. Rose, Noah, and all of those great role players. He would have been scrutinized just as much if not more in Chicago.

He'd be "scrutinized" by a small group of idiots who already hated him to begin with. Like I said, MOST wouldn't have a problem with him joining Chicago/NY, who unlike Miami, didn't have 2 other established superstars.

[NBAller]

Why would Lebron decide to make it harder on himself?

He has the skills, he just needs the rings. He can't do it alone, no one can. Why chance going to a mediocre team with a higher possibility of having a Cavaliers repeat, when the chances are higher with Wade and Bosh?

If you're trying to win the lottery would you purposely pick the harder path to win that easy cash to have respect of others? **** no, you're taking the cash and laughing all the way to the bank.

[ripthekik]

That's fine, you can call it ring chasing or whatever but you totally don't give credit where credit is due.

You can look at it like this: Do you think his reputation and legacy would have been more prominent if he stayed in Cleveland and only won one ring for his entire career? Or if he joins the Heat and wins at least 3-4 rings as the man with D. Wade?

And yes he would have won only one ring in Cleveland because they've been a top 5 draft team every year since he's left--even with Kyrie Irving.
Actually.. I thought about it.. and yes, I think I would've respected him as much, if not more, if he won 1 ring with Cavs than 3 with Heat.I imagined that because I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dirk Nowitski.

Now back to Lebron, no one even disputes the fact that he is the best basketball player anymore. And if he was able to bring 1 to Cleveland.. do you know how big that would be? It would really be the biggest story over America... To me, that's also more impressive than winning 3 with Wade.

Having already established to the world that he is the best player, and getting that 1 ring with Cavs.. that's enough.. that's a great career from start to finish really.. that's very respectable because of how people will remember him as.

[uoykcuf]

Well, I'm not sure what you're asking me to give credit to. This thread is about ring-chasing. We're not talking about last year's championship or this year. That is a different topic.

Since we're basically talking about the decision that took place in 2010, my opinion, along with other NBA fans, is that it was an easy way out, and he was ring-chasing. Whatever happened after is another story. But with all the facts of 2010, I can't see anyone denying it so.

Except James and Bosh joined the Heat in the summer of 2010 after Miami lost in 5 games to the Celtics in the first round, and their regular season record for 09-10 was 47-35.

[Rysio]

its only stupid because your hero is the biggest ring chaser of them all :rolleyes:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Ring chasing per se is not a bad thing, its the goal of the NBA. How you ring chase is subject to scrutiny though, for example, lebron avoided competition by joining them in an already watered down conference to ring chase, breaking promises to a city in the process. That's the ring-chase type common sense dictates is wrong

[Solefade]

Actually.. I thought about it.. and yes, I think I would've respected him as much, if not more, if he won 1 ring with Cavs than 3 with Heat.I imagined that because I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dirk Nowitski.

Now back to Lebron, no one even disputes the fact that he is the best basketball player anymore. And if he was able to bring 1 to Cleveland.. do you know how big that would be? It would really be the biggest story over America... To me, that's also more impressive than winning 3 with Wade.

Having already established to the world that he is the best player, and getting that 1 ring with Cavs.. that's enough.. that's a great career from start to finish really.. that's very respectable because of how people will remember him as.

Yeah but he would be nowhere near the discussion of Kobe or Michael Jordan like he is now. So hindsight, he made the best decision he could for himself whether you discredit him or not. Everyone needs a super star alongside them to win. They were a flawed team in 2010, Bosh and Wade were hurt last year during their run and LeBron straight up CARRIED them (let this marinade for a while before you say he played with two top 15 players). The reason why they're so good this year should be accredited to the coaching staff and team chemistry. Chemistry is such an underrated quality of a team.

[GrapeApe]

I'd like to point out that LeBron also took a bit of a risk signing with the Heat. He invited an immense amount of pressure to win (and admittedly he added to that with his 5,6,7...prediction). Look at the backlash he received after the 2011 finals. Imagine if the Heat had lost game 6 in Boston last year. LeBron and the Heat would have been viewed as one of the most epic failures in sports history. Joining Wade and Bosh created a great opportunity to win titles, but also came with the danger of ridicule and infamy had he not succeeded.

[NBAller]

I'd like to point out that LeBron also took a bit of a risk signing with the Heat. He invited an immense amount of pressure to win (and admittedly he added to that with his 5,6,7...prediction). Look at the backlash he received after the 2011 finals. Imagine if the Heat had lost game 6 in Boston last year. LeBron and the Heat would have been viewed as one of the most epic failures in sports history. Joining Wade and Bosh created an great opportunity to win titles, but also came with the danger of ridicule and infamy had he not succeded.


I haven't thought about that. :applause:

Damn, they would have been verbally raped. He really stepped up.

[Solefade]

He'd be "scrutinized" by a small group of idiots who already hated him to begin with. Like I said, MOST wouldn't have a problem with him joining Chicago/NY, who unlike Miami, didn't have 2 other established superstars.

Derrick Rose won MVP in 2011 and was arguably better than both D. Wade and Bosh. What's the difference exactly?

[FLDFSU]

There's most certainly folks out there with an agenda against LeBron James. Whether they be Cavaliers fans, fans of James' rivals, or just flat out people who don't like the look of LeBron himself, there's a lot of people out there like that who exist. I think these people will sometimes make strange arguments about why they think LeBron moving to another team was wrong as a thinly veiled means of criticizing James as a player and person.

However, I believe there's also a large group of people who are absent of an agenda but still had an issue with his move to Miami. I am one of those people. As a fan of the NBA and basketball in general, something just felt off when I discovered James would be headed to Miami. Other players had signed to play alongside big talent before, but I never felt as poorly as when James made his move.

I've said this before, but I think I felt it went beyond, "I just want the best chance to win." It felt like someone was trying to take the quickest and easiest route to foregoing competition. It was like the three 6'6'' D-1 players at the park insisting upon being on the same team then feeling accomplished once they dismantled their high school-level opponents.

I think a lot of my issue stems from the lack of importance I place on championship rings when labeling my best basketball players of all-time. Being a team game, I don't feel all championships were created equal. I find the "This great player has ____ championships and this great player only has _____, so the first player's obviously better" argument to be one of the great misnomers in all of sports.

So in that regard, the feeling of James attempting to win a ring at all costs, even if that means attempting to create a team improbably juiced at nearly every single role, struck me the wrong way. It felt like someone was trying their best to make the game as noncompetitive as possible, and then expecting praise for his wonderful accomplishment.

I don't hate LeBron James, but I certainly do not root for the Heat. I'm a Pistons fan, but I really enjoyed James' time in Cleveland. As a fan of the game, that was fun because there was more of a feeling of James going out and taking it against all comers, regardless of how big the other markets were or how stacked they were. James was awesome enough to lead the way and made normal teammates look outstanding. So to go from that to James leading an evil empire where he's still the best player in the game, but now also running alongside those he used to try to fight through.... it's a real bummer.

The problem is that Lebron and the Heat did not gain a single competitive advantage. The Heat did not get to play with an extra player, with two balls, or only on their home court. Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh have their flaws like anyone else.

It is up to the rest of the NBA to put their big boy pants on and beat them. Good thing the Mavs did not think like this in 2011.

Remember these are all NBA players.

[Goldrush25]

Yes, I see your point. But you gotta to see from the point of view that Lebron James was the best NBA player, at his prime, in 2010.

Imagine MJ coming back from retirement.. and he was a free agent. Should he just be like.. hey, Rockets are the best team now, my chances to win a ring is the highest! Let me join them.

THAT, is a huge difference, from wanting to go to a team to compete as best as you can and try to win a ring legitimately.


..

Thanks for the civil response.

I think one thing we can all agree on, is that LeBron James is not MJ. He won't ever be MJ. I don't think the comparisons are fair.

Why are we judging him by MJ's standards? Quite honestly LeBron could win 20 championships and he wouldn't be rated as highly as MJ. No one will likely eclipse what that man brought to the game.

That said, MJ was as good as he was, IMO, due to insecurity. The guy clearly was scarred from not making the varsity team in HS, so much so that he flew his HS coach to Chicago, just to have the United Center boo him. MJ's entire existence was about proving people wrong and humiliating them in the process. He did that with his HS coach, his teammates, and his opponents all the same.

Lebron (and actually countless other young phenoms) didn't have to deal with that. He was always touted as the next great thing, since middle school. That he came to the league and was able to surpass the expectations is a credit upon himself. His career has been more about living up to expectations, expectations that MJ didn't have.

MJ came up the hard way and developed a clear mean streak that aided him to his titles. People call it competitiveness, when it can also be viewed as a need to constantly prove people wrong. LeBron's career has always been about proving people right. To hold one player to the standard of another, which they have almost nothing in common in regards to their path to the NBA, isn't fair, IMO.

[NBAller]

Derrick Rose won MVP in 2011 and was arguably better than both D. Wade and Bosh. What's the difference exactly?

Wade and Bron were conference "rivals" on the court, had nothing with Rose and the Bulls...think Knicks were Melo-less at the time.

So he left his shit team to play with his bud and better supporting cast in Miami, which is frowned upon by some.

[ripthekik]

Yeah but he would be nowhere near the discussion of Kobe or Michael Jordan like he is now. So hindsight, he made the best decision he could for himself whether you discredit him or not. Everyone needs a super star alongside them to win.
But does everyone need 2 all star starters?

Back to the first point. I disagree that he would simply be out of the discussion just because he only had 1 ring. Just now I mentioned Dirk, and that I had tremendous amount of respect for him. Well, why is he not ranked higher? Simply because his gameplay doesn't bring him up higher.. Well, Lebron's game does.

Look at Hakeem. He "only" has 2 rings, yet he is constantly in the discussion, listed along with Shaq and Duncan (4 rings each) in the top 10. That's because people realize his situation, his team, and his level of basketball is high enough. People respect him for that. They don't deny him anything because he "only" had two rings.

Lebron could've gone the same path.. but instead he chooses this empty path of getting rings with a stacked team.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Derrick Rose won MVP in 2011 and was arguably better than both D. Wade and Bosh. What's the difference exactly?

Wade (who has a finals MVP) and Bosh led their respective teams to the playoffs before colluding w/ James. They're BOTH franchise-level players. What don't you get?

[ripthekik]

Thanks for the civil response.

I think one thing we can all agree on, is that LeBron James is not MJ. He won't ever be MJ. I don't think the comparisons are fair.

Why are we judging him by MJ's standards? Quite honestly LeBron could win 20 championships and he wouldn't be rated as highly as MJ. No one will likely eclipse what that man brought to the game.

That said, MJ was as good as he was, IMO, due to insecurity. The guy clearly was scarred from not making the varsity team in HS, so much so that he flew his HS coach to Chicago, just to have the United Center boo him. MJ's entire existence was about proving people wrong and humiliating them in the process. He did that with his HS coach, his teammates, and his opponents all the same.

Lebron (and actually countless other young phenoms) didn't have to deal with that. He was always touted as the next great thing, since middle school. That he came to the league and was able to surpass the expectations is a credit upon himself. His career has been more about living up to expectations, expectations that MJ didn't have.

MJ came up the hard way and developed a clear mean streak that aided him to his titles. People call it competitiveness, when it can also be viewed as a need to constantly prove people wrong. LeBron's career has always been about proving people right. To hold one player to the standard of another, which they have almost nothing in common in regards to their path to the NBA, isn't fair, IMO.
Actually, I'm sorry to mislead you. I did use MJ, but I didn't try to compare Lebron and MJ. I used MJ to show - whether the best NBA player, in his prime, should decide to join a team simply because it is his highest chances of winning a ring?

That's the expectations when you're the number 1 player.. This is not like you're Steve Nash, and looking for the best team you can contribute to to win a ring.

This is you being the NBA's best player.. and suddenly joining the second best team in the league because the chance of winning a ring is the highest?

There's something wrong with that.. I hope you see what I'm talking about. It's about competition.. it's about pride.. it's about a lot more than just winning an empty ring..

[K Xerxes]

I haven't thought about that. :applause:

Damn, they would have been verbally raped. He really stepped up.

Yeah, before the game 6 in Boston, the Heat were being ripped apart by the media. Trade talks for Wade and Bosh were beginning. LeBron's legacy was on the line after that below standard game 5 performance. The team was going to be broken up.

That's what makes his performance one of the greatest basketball performances I've ever seen. 45-15-5 is special, but there have been statistically better numbers. It was the context. It came with his team on the line. And, arguably, his legacy on the line.

[NBAller]

Yeah, before the game 6 in Boston, the Heat were being ripped apart by the media. Trade talks for Wade and Bosh were beginning. LeBron's legacy was on the line after that below standard game 5 performance. The team was going to be broken up.

That's what makes his performance one of the greatest basketball performances I've ever seen. 45-15-5 is special, but there have been statistically better numbers. It was the context. It came with his team on the line. And, arguably, his legacy on the line.

:bowdown:

[K Xerxes]

Lebron could've gone the same path.. but instead he chooses this empty path of getting rings with a stacked team.

Play hypotheticals with me. We have two LeBrons:

LeBron 1 stays in Cleveland for the rest of his career and the first seven years of his career is basically like the last 10 or so. So he ends up ringless.

LeBron 2 is current LeBron that has already won a ring and looks destined for multiple championships (even by your admission). However, he is on a better team with Wade and Bosh. Let's say he hypothetically ends up with 3-5 rings and the same number of FMVPs.

Both LeBrons have the same number of MVPs, accolades and statistical achievements as each other. Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?

[Ne 1]

When LeBron went to Miami the top 3 players in the world in no order were though of as Kobe, LeBron, Wade. So yes, it's kind of strange to team up and go to your peers team that's competing against your legacy who already won a championship. Playing together here on out, Wade will always have more titles than Bron, that makes me wonder if Bron can ever add without Wade. Yeah, Bron is better than Wade now but if Jordan teamed up with Bird in the 80's, many would have also thought Jordan was better than Bird, or vice versa. Before LeBron, Wade had already established a legacy in Miami and won a title for the city and is in his prime. Heck, Kobe was about to go to the Clippers with Elton Brand in '04 if the Lakers hadn't traded Shaq and he was going to go the Bulls in '07 with Ben Gordon. There's no way in the prime or peak of his career he would go to another superstars team who he'd essentially be competing otherwise and measured against like McGrady's Magic (in '03-'05 when they were at the same level) or Duncan's Spurs, KG's T-Wolves, Wade's Heat, LeBron's Cavs or Dirk's Mavs.

[Solefade]

But does everyone need 2 all star starters?

Back to the first point. I disagree that he would simply be out of the discussion just because he only had 1 ring. Just now I mentioned Dirk, and that I had tremendous amount of respect for him. Well, why is he not ranked higher? Simply because his gameplay doesn't bring him up higher.. Well, Lebron's game does.

Look at Hakeem. He "only" has 2 rings, yet he is constantly in the discussion, listed along with Shaq and Duncan (4 rings each) in the top 10. That's because people realize his situation, his team, and his level of basketball is high enough. People respect him for that. They don't deny him anything because he "only" had two rings.

Lebron could've gone the same path.. but instead he chooses this empty path of getting rings with a stacked team.

Top 10 is not the same as Top 5 of all time. Bird's steam was stacked, Lakers were stacked, they all had at least two superstars. MJ had Pippen, Rodman and Phil Jackson. Not to mention he had a 6th man of the year in Toni Kukoc and a great role player in Paxson and Steve Kerr. Take a look at the history of championship teams.

I just want to add that anyone who thinks Kobe did it with less is really retarded. You glorify Kobe by discrediting his teammates who totally stepped up during those championship games (Gasol, Bynum, Odom, and Ron Artest/D. Fisher who made some really really clutch plays against Boston).

[ripthekik]

Play hypotheticals with me. We have two LeBrons:

LeBron 1 stays in Cleveland for the rest of his career and the first seven years of his career is basically like the last 10 or so. So he ends up ringless.

LeBron 2 is current LeBron that has already won a ring and looks destined for multiple championships (even by your admission). However, he is on a better team with Wade and Bosh. Let's say he hypothetically ends up with 3-5 rings and the same number of FMVPs.

Both LeBrons have the same number of MVPs, accolades and statistical achievements as each other. Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?
That's not a fair hypothetical really..

Why? I think Lebron would've eventually, possibly won a ring in Cleveland. If he plays at the level he played this year.. and the Celtics are getting old.. and who else is in the East? Guaranteed trip to the finals. Hell, the Cavs were what, 60+ wins for 2 years? After 2010, who knows, another star might come to Cavs, and that's all he need really.

But if you really want to stick to that hypothetical, then fine, 0 rings at Cleveland. But let me introduce a 3rd Lebron.

Lebron 3, signs with Knicks in 2010. Wins 2 rings with Amare as his 2nd star. Brings a championship to the Knicks finally. All his other accolades are the same.

Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?

[Solefade]

When LeBron went to Miami the top 3 players in the world in no order were though of as Kobe, LeBron, Wade. So yes, it's kind of strange to team up and go to your peers team that's competing against your legacy who already won a championship. Playing together here on out, Wade will always have more titles than Bron, that makes me wonder if Bron can ever add without Wade. Yeah, Bron is better than Wade now but if Jordan teamed up with Bird in the 80's, many would have also thought Jordan was better than Bird, or vice versa. Before LeBron, Wade had already established a legacy in Miami and won a title for the city and is in his prime. Heck, Kobe was about to go to the Clippers with Elton Brand in '04 if the Lakers hadn't traded Shaq and he was going to go the Bulls in '07 with Ben Gordon. There's no way in the prime or peak of his career he would go to another superstars team who he'd essentially be competing otherwise and measured against like McGrady's Magic (in '03-'05 when they were at the same level) or Duncan's Spurs, KG's T-Wolves, Wade's Heat, LeBron's Cavs or Dirk's Mavs.


The point is, D. Wade and Bosh were just "good" players last year not all-star/superstar level because they had injuries. LeBron CARRIED these guys so why are you still giving him shit like he got a shit ton of help from those two?

EVERYONE (analysts and fans) acknowledged that D. Wade was not the same and Bosh was not there for most of the important playoff games and NO ONE was giving them a chance to beat OKC or SAS even if they got past Boston. Despite all the pressure and doubt and the unfortunate circumstances of his superstar teammates, LeBron elevated himself and his team to the championship.

[NBAller]

Off topic but I want it said. Best thread I've read yet. :applause:

thought ish was full of airheads at one point besides a few.

[dh144498]

lol.. nobody said you can't leave the team that drafted you.
It's going straight to a stacked team, and tossing out all the competition that is the problem. That's the easy road out, and it is a shame.

Your entire post was just stupid and focused on the wrong point. Funny miami/lebron fans straight up agreed with you. :oldlol:

Leaving a team is not ring chasing. Going to a stacked team is.

this.

:applause: :applause:

[Solefade]

:roll:
Wade (who has a finals MVP) and Bosh led their respective teams to the playoffs before colluding w/ James. They're BOTH franchise-level players. What don't you get?

I said LeBron would be scrutinized as much or more if he had joined D. Rose and the Bulls and I added that this would have been the MUCH easier route for LBJ. So what would have been the difference? The Bulls were much better team overall and D. Rose was better than D. Wade at that point. Miami initially was an awkward make up for him because Wade was also a ball dominant player and Bosh was just a jump shooting big man. Things changed when Wade "took a backseat" to LeBron.

Learn to read bro.

[FLDFSU]

Wade (who has a finals MVP) and Bosh led their respective teams to the playoffs before colluding w/ James. They're BOTH franchise-level players. What don't you get?

Didn't Rose lead his team to the Playoff vs James. Further than Bosh?

[Solefade]

Off topic but I want it said. Best thread I've read yet. :applause:

thought ish was full of airheads at one point besides a few.

You know ripthekik isn't so bad after all. :applause:

[Ne 1]

Bird's steam was stacked, Lakers were stacked, they all had at least two superstars. MJ had Pippen

But Pippen was never Jordan's equal. The Bulls drafted Pippen as a rookie from a division 2 school, he became great alongside Jordan. McHale was never Bird's equal. It is a huge difference as to what happened in Miami... Jordan and Bird came to bad teams, and made them GREAT... Bird had more pieces to work with sooner, but he came to a 29 win team and they won 61 the next season and a title in 3 years.

As far as the 80s Lakers, anyone arguing Magic/Kareem situation is remotely similar to LeBron/Wade is clueless. Magic as a rookie wasn't even that much better than Norm Nixon. And in his early years he was great, but not better than Kareem, Moses or Bird. After '85ish is when he really started getting into his prime and took the team away from Kareem. Prime/Peak Wade is better than Magic was from '80-'85 (easily better actually), and he is easily better than Kareem was from mid 80s on wards. Magic's prime did not coincide with Kareem's "late prime", and only one of Kareem's prime years (a late one at that in 1980) occurred when Magic was on the team. They didn't collude together in free agency to create by far the most talented team in the league.

Magic when he joined the Lakers was a rookie who was slowly getting better every year, while Kareem was getting worse. If you want to compare current LeBron to Magic, compare him to post '86 Magic (who won two rings as "the man"), when he was universally top 2 player in the league along with Bird (and Kareem by then was not even a top 5 player). LeBron in 2010 was the best player in the league, but he jumped on to a team with the "other" best player who has also been putting together historical statistical seasons. This is more equivalent to Walton and Kareem joining in '77, or Magic and Bird joining from '86-'88, MJ and Barkley or Hakeem joining in '93, or Russell and Chamberlain teaming up in the 60s, because you know why? These guys were not only thought of as the two best players in the league, but also at the same level as the other guy, just like LeBron and Wade.

[ripthekik]

Off topic but I want it said. Best thread I've read yet. :applause:

No thanks to you :lol

j/k.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:roll:

I said LeBron would be scrutinized as much or more if he had joined D. Rose and the Bulls

But you're wrong. :confusedshrug:


and I added that this would have been the MUCH easier route for LBJ

No it wouldn't have.


So what would have been the difference? The Bulls were much better team overall and D. Rose was better than D. Wade at that point.

I already told you difference. Maybe YOU should learn to read. And no, he wasn't. Sorry if you didn't watch watch Wade in the finals. That's your fault.

[NBAller]

You know ripthekik isn't so bad after all. :applause:


He's not. I understand where he and posters like him are coming from, we just view the situation differently and thus would have gone about it differently. perfectly fine.:cheers:

[FLDFSU]

That's not a fair hypothetical really..

Why? I think Lebron would've eventually, possibly won a ring in Cleveland. If he plays at the level he played this year.. and the Celtics are getting old.. and who else is in the East? Guaranteed trip to the finals. Hell, the Cavs were what, 60+ wins for 2 years? After 2010, who knows, another star might come to Cavs, and that's all he need really.

But if you really want to stick to that hypothetical, then fine, 0 rings at Cleveland. But let me introduce a 3rd Lebron.

Lebron 3, signs with Knicks in 2010. Wins 2 rings with Amare as his 2nd star. Brings a championship to the Knicks finally. All his other accolades are the same.

Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?


LOL. You must think Pat Riley was not going to stack the Heat without Lebron. Pat would have gotten CP3 or Dwight and Lebron would have never gotten out of the East conference. That is probably what he told Lebron when they met in Cleveland during his free agency.

But I suppose to you that would be "fair" to Lebron.

[Solefade]

But you're wrong. :confusedshrug:



No it wouldn't have.



I already told you difference. Maybe YOU should learn to read. And no, he wasn't. Sorry if you didn't watch watch Wade in the finals.

So D. Rose won MVP that season but he's not better than Dwyane? The Bulls were a better built team than the Heat, anyone who disputes this is retarded.

/pointatKuniva

[Solefade]

But Pippen was never Jordan's equal. The Bulls drafted Pippen as a rookie from a division 2 school, he became great alongside Jordan. McHale was never Bird's equal. It is a huge difference as to what happened in Miami... Jordan and Bird came to bad teams, and made them GREAT... Bird had more pieces to work with sooner, but he came to a 29 win team and they won 61 the next season and a title in 3 years.

As far as the 80s Lakers, anyone arguing Magic/Kareem situation is remotely similar to LeBron/Wade is clueless. Magic as a rookie wasn't even that much better than Norm Nixon. And in his early years he was great, but not better than Kareem, Moses or Bird. After '85ish is when he really started getting into his prime and took the team away from Kareem. Prime/Peak Wade is better than Magic was from '80-'85 (easily better actually), and he is easily better than Kareem was from mid 80s on wards. Magic's prime did not coincide with Kareem's "late prime", and only one of Kareem's prime years (a late one at that in 1980) occurred when Magic was on the team. They didn't collude together in free agency to create by far the most talented team in the league.

Magic when he joined the Lakers was a rookie who was slowly getting better every year, while Kareem was getting worse. If you want to compare current LeBron to Magic, compare him to post '86 Magic (who won two rings as "the man"), when he was universally top 2 player in the league along with Bird (and Kareem by then was not even a top 5 player). LeBron in 2010 was the best player in the league, but he jumped on to a team with the "other" best player who has also been putting together historical statistical seasons. This is more equivalent to Walton and Kareem joining in '77, or Magic and Bird joining from '86-'88, MJ and Barkley or Hakeem joining in '93, or Russell and Chamberlain teaming up in the 60s, because you know why? These guys were not only thought of as the two best players in the league, but also at the same level as the other guy, just like LeBron and Wade.

You're already wrong in your first sentence when you basically implied that D. Wade was LBJ's equal. Lol.

[The Choken One]

Only LeBron fans hate this term.... Probably because it describes their hero perfectly.

Best record in the league? Better leave to join 2 other superstars cause I'm a chump.

[Ne 1]

So D. Rose won MVP that season but he's not better than Dwyane? The Bulls were a better built team than the Heat, anyone who disputes this is retarded.

/pointatKuniva

C'Mon man. LeBron went to Miami with Wade and Bosh because he knew the route to a championship and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been playing anywhere else. Hence why he said he believed they could win 8 rings why he saidand "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us" and why LeBron joked that Pat Riley could return to his playing days and play alongside them and that it would still be easy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So D. Rose won MVP that season but he's not better than Dwyane?
You said he was better than Wade in 2011. I'm saying Wade was just as good as Rose in 2011. Learn to read bro.


The Bulls were a better built team than the Heat, anyone who disputes this is retarded.

Aww, poor baby can't handle REALITY. :oldlol: The Cavs WITH Lebron beat the Bulls in 2010. The Cavs.

[Ne 1]

Only LeBron fans hate this term.... Probably because it describes their hero perfectly.



"It

[NumberSix]

Your first post in this thread proved how stupid you are and you want my attention?

How about only you lebron fans refuse to acknowledge the fact that he took the easy way out in 2010?

It's so clear that he took a shortcut.. there's no other way to explain it.
^this kid is so angry.

He SO BADLY didn't want LeBron to win championships. The little "0 rings" nonsense was the only thing he had to hold onto to live in denial that LeBron James is one of the GOAT. Now that that's gone out the window, he's just desperately grasping to remain in denial.

[ErhnamDjinn]

I have no problem with ring chasers, its there careers in the end, maybe sometimes they just get tired of always missing the boat and such. I agree some people like Nash do the right thing and leave there teams in amicable ways, then we have the LBJ and Ray Allens that almost ditch there teams, but in the end they believe they are doing whats best for them and thats all that matters.

[Goldrush25]

That's not a fair hypothetical really..

Why? I think Lebron would've eventually, possibly won a ring in Cleveland. If he plays at the level he played this year.. and the Celtics are getting old.. and who else is in the East? Guaranteed trip to the finals. Hell, the Cavs were what, 60+ wins for 2 years? After 2010, who knows, another star might come to Cavs, and that's all he need really.

But if you really want to stick to that hypothetical, then fine, 0 rings at Cleveland. But let me introduce a 3rd Lebron.

Lebron 3, signs with Knicks in 2010. Wins 2 rings with Amare as his 2nd star. Brings a championship to the Knicks finally. All his other accolades are the same.

Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?


Like I said earlier, I believe LeBron's entire career has been centered on the need to prove everyone right. He's actually trying to live up to the "Chosen One" moniker. Could he do that with a single ring?

And I agree with you, Lebron could've won perhaps a single ring in Cleveland. But obviously in his mind, he had much grander projections for his career, as evidenced by his "Not two, not three, not four..." rant.

Let's be honest. The only way you win multiple championships is with a stacked team. If you don't grow into one (which players have no control over) then you have to manufacture one. What Miami did was unprecedented only in the regard that it happened all at once. Many MANY teams have built stacked teams one year at a time though.

It's not unlike a corporate merger that creates a monopoly on an industry. If you can drive your competition out of business, you do that. That money is the bottom line in business, and those rings are the bottom line in the NBA. Get them how you can, IMO. I know that's not the idealistic view, but it's the reality.

[ripthekik]

^this kid is so angry.

He SO BADLY didn't want LeBron to win championships. The little "0 rings" nonsense was the only thing he had to hold onto to live in denial that LeBron James is one of the GOAT. Now that that's gone out the window, he's just desperately grasping to remain in denial.
lmao Numbersix you're late to the party. Might want to read through the rest of the thread to catch up. I had a better time discussing with the new posters than you.

[K Xerxes]

That's not a fair hypothetical really..

Why? I think Lebron would've eventually, possibly won a ring in Cleveland. If he plays at the level he played this year.. and the Celtics are getting old.. and who else is in the East? Guaranteed trip to the finals. Hell, the Cavs were what, 60+ wins for 2 years? After 2010, who knows, another star might come to Cavs, and that's all he need really.

But if you really want to stick to that hypothetical, then fine, 0 rings at Cleveland. But let me introduce a 3rd Lebron.

Lebron 3, signs with Knicks in 2010. Wins 2 rings with Amare as his 2nd star. Brings a championship to the Knicks finally. All his other accolades are the same.

Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?

Really? You think, in the eyes of most people, a ringless LeBron on Cleveland would end up greater than a 3-5 ring LeBron on Miami?

No point really...

[ripthekik]

Really? You think, in the eyes of most people, a ringless LeBron on Cleveland would end up greater than a 3-5 ring LeBron on Miami?

No point really...
what???
didn't you see my Lebron 3??

(edit: oh i get it.. you misunderstood me. I said "fine" as in, let's keep Cavs bron at 0 rings, I'll accept your hypothetical scenario. I didn't said Lebron with 0 rings would be better.)

Ok maybe for some people it's hard to comprehend my posts. So I will explain it instead.

In your scenario
1) Cavs Bron 0 ring
2) Heat Bron 3 ring
3) Knicks Bron 2 ring

I'm sure Knicks bron will be the greatest and most respected of all.

[Solefade]

You said he was better than Wade in 2011. I'm saying Wade was just as good as Rose in 2011. Learn to read bro.



Aww, poor baby can't handle REALITY. :oldlol: The Cavs WITH Lebron beat the Bulls in 2010. The Cavs.

It's not just D. Rose, they had Noah, Deng, Asik, Gibson, Watson, Korver and Thibs. Outside of CB/Wade they had Mike Miller, Arroyo, Bibby, Big Z, Dampier, Juwan Howard, not to mention some other washed up dudes. So how exactly were the Heat better than the Bulls?

You plug LeBron into that line up instead of Boozer and it was an instant championship.

[PJR]

The point is, D. Wade and Bosh were just "good" players last year not all-star/superstar level because they had injuries. LeBron CARRIED these guys so why are you still giving him shit like he got a shit ton of help from those two?



:oldlol: I like how this was glossed over by Ne 1, because he has no rebuttal for it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's not just D. Rose, they had Noah, Deng, Asik, Gibson, Watson, Korver and Thibs. Outside of CB/Wade they had Mike Miller, Arroyo, Bibby, Big Z, Dampier, Juwan Howard, not to mention some other washed up dudes. So how exactly were the Heat better than the Bulls?

And? They're not better than what the Heat had in 2011, nor what the Heat have currently constructed. I'd take a healthy Wade and Bosh over anything Chicago has. :confusedshrug:


You plug LeBron into that line up instead of Boozer and it was an instant championship.

Quit living in fantasy land.

[Solefade]

And? They're not better than what the Heat had in 2011, nor what the Heat have currently constructed. I'd take a healthy Wade and Bosh over anything Chicago has. :confusedshrug:



Quit living in fantasy land.

SMH, nevermind. You're an idiot. Lol

[NumberSix]

This is the difference in mentality between people who achieve success and those who never will. You have those who create arbitrary barriers and those who don't. People who mentally create misguided imaginary codes of morality and honor and those who see the world as open opportunities for the taking.

Scenario A) more success and being the creator of your own destiny.

Scenario B) less success while maintaining your own arbitrary code of what's honourable.


From the sound of it, most of you are scenario B people.

[K Xerxes]

what???
didn't you see my Lebron 3??

You will change your agenda to suit your LeBron hatred, justified or not. It's one thing to say you don't like him chasing a ring, but the only thing missing from LeBron's resume by 2010 was a ring. He had the individual achievements, the MVPs, everything, but the ring. Miami LeBron would have gone down far greater than Cleveland LeBron and you know it.

As for your hypothetical, I don't know because a team is not defined by only the number of stars present. It involves everyone in the rotation playing their part: defensive specialists, three point specialists, rebounders, facilitators etc. LeBron winning with Amare or Wade & Bosh means little to me if I don't know how the whole team is made up, including the coaching and organisation.

However, the way LeBron won the ring last year with the amount of help he received, he may as well have been playing on your hypothetical Knicks. Wade was hobbled and subpar throughout the playoffs and Bosh missed almost two series. LeBron was the consistent dominant force in every series and he was every bit the reason they won as many superstars in the history of the league.

[ILLsmak]

Really? You think, in the eyes of most people, a ringless LeBron on Cleveland would end up greater than a 3-5 ring LeBron on Miami?

No point really...


What if he doesn't win 3-5 rings? That's a lot of rings for any team. Requires luck as well.

I think people miss the point of the LeBron thing. It's not the same as ring chasing, it was a situation that may never happen again. Imagine 5 guys were on terrible teams... and they wanted to win, so they decided... hey let's play together and we will be the best team.

I don't call what happened ring chasing. As said, that's the goal. It's more of doing something that was unprecedented and, in a way, monopolizing the eastern conference talent.

Regardless, it wasn't the perfect plan because they didn't get perfect pieces. It *was* just 3 friends doing this, but I do think that their accomplishments thereafter should be taken in context.

-Smak

[Rake2204]

The problem is that Lebron and the Heat did not gain a single competitive advantage. The Heat did not get to play with an extra player, with two balls, or only on their home court. Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh have their flaws like anyone else.

It is up to the rest of the NBA to put their big boy pants on and beat them. Good thing the Mavs did not think like this in 2011.

Remember these are all NBA players.James, Wade and Bosh all have flaws in their basketball abilities, but far less than 99.9% of the NBA. They are the competitive advantage. My D1 to high school analogy inadvertently suggested I thought that gap was equal to the Heat vs. Rest of NBA difference. I really only meant to clearly illustrate an instance where three of the best players opt to team up against opponents who'd only sometimes have even one player of similar caliber.

I'm thankful teams did not decide to lay down and concede victory to the LBJ/Wade/Bosh Heat. I actually bet some did but many (particularly the Mavericks) refused to give in. The same actually tends to happen on the aforementioned street courts. I've been a part of runs where all the best players try to team up and walk their way through everyone. Often they succeed, but sometimes the less talented are able to rise up and overcome. Some may argue it even makes victory sweeter for the underdog.

But win or lose, I never find it to be a good look for those top tier folks trying to stack and roll with ease. And that was kind of the feeling with James' move. It felt unique in comparison to many of the other "good player moving to good team" situations I've witnessed growing up. I just couldn't shake the feel that his primary goal was take the easiest path possible toward winning a ring then expecting everyone to marvel at his accomplishment.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it just speaks to my personal interpretation of sport. I am not a "win at all costs" person. If I was, I'd probably only play ball against fifth graders. Or, if playing against people my own age, I'd attempt to only play on the same team as the best players. I just don't view winning as being as black and white as some others do. I really like winning, and I like seeing teams win, but often only if there isn't something crazy going on like a slew of star players attempting to combine their forces Captain Planet style in hopes of cake walking their way to seven easy championship rings. Winning can be impressive, but it becomes less so when someone attempts to tilt the advantage heavily in their favor. And sure, it didn't entirely work out for Miami in year 1, but I think I was equally bothered by the idea as I was by the result.

[NBAller]

This is the difference in mentality between people who achieve success and those who never will. You have those who create arbitrary barriers and those who don't. People who mentally create misguided imaginary codes of morality and honor and those who see the world as open opportunities for the taking.

Scenario A) more success and being the creator of your own destiny.

Scenario B) less success while maintaining your own arbitrary code of what's honourable.


From the sound of it, most of you are scenario B people.

i think you mean most in this thread are scenario A people, then again i'm not counting. :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

SMH, nevermind. You're an idiot. Lol

And you're a delusional Lebron stan. The Bulls aren't a "guaranteed championship" with Lebron.

I also gotta lol at Rose being better than Wade in 2011. What a joke. :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

You will change your agenda to suit your LeBron hatred, justified or not. It's one thing to say you don't like him chasing a ring, but the only thing missing from LeBron's resume by 2010 was a ring. He had the individual achievements, the MVPs, everything, but the ring. Miami LeBron would have gone down far greater than Cleveland LeBron and you know it.

As for your hypothetical, I don't know because a team is not defined by only the number of stars present. It involves everyone in the rotation playing their part: defensive specialists, three point specialists, rebounders, facilitators etc. LeBron winning with Amare or Wade & Bosh means little to me if I don't know how the whole team is made up, including the coaching and organisation.

However, the way LeBron won the ring last year with the amount of help he received, he may as well have been playing on your hypothetical Knicks. Wade was hobbled and subpar throughout the playoffs and Bosh missed almost two series. LeBron was the consistent dominant force in every series and he was every bit the reason they won as many superstars in the history of the league.
Just want you to see that you completely misread my post earlier. I editted it and explained it for you.

And sorry.. in a hypothetical scenario.. you suddenly want to put in all those real life factors and details in the 2nd paragraph? :oldlol: That's not the point of hypothetical situations is it? You brought the thing up, come on. You started with 0 ring Cavs and 3 ring Heat. You wanted me to choose. I put in a 3rd option to put things in perspective. and NOW you suddenly want to know their rotational, whether battier was on the team or not? :oldlol:

We're talking based on what's on the surface. There's no way that 2 rings Knicks Lebron isn't the greatest of the three.

[ILLsmak]

This is the difference in mentality between people who achieve success and those who never will. You have those who create arbitrary barriers and those who don't. People who mentally create misguided imaginary codes of morality and honor and those who see the world as open opportunities for the taking.

Scenario A) more success and being the creator of your own destiny.

Scenario B) less success while maintaining your own arbitrary code of what's honourable.


From the sound of it, most of you are scenario B people.

Do you think if every player in the NBA outside of the Heat roster voted on whether what they did was "fair" and "honorable", with the chance to veto it, it wouldn't come back with an overwhelming majority of no-ways? Then, of course, people would say "Everyone is hating!" But that's what people always say when they are doing cheesy shit to win.

Like playing a fighting game and chaining someone into 50 sweeps in a row.

There is more than just an arbitrary code of honor. I think America's downfall is that its citizens only want accolades... opposed to the respect of their peers.

Now, keep in mind, I am not saying that the decision = video game glitching. I am simply saying that there is a line that you can cross where "winning" doesn't matter anymore or where winning is tainted. Is that the case? I think it depends on who you ask. But that's the point of view.

Personally, if it was Melo and not LeBron, I wouldn't be worried. I was looking forward to seeing LeBron will his team to a championship. I was rooting for him. Now, not so much... the NBA is boring when you know who is going to win. This year, it seems like the Heat are going to win... at least until the Finals and as we've seen... who knows what will happen then.

-Smak

[ripthekik]

Do you think if every player in the NBA outside of the Heat roster voted on whether what they did was "fair" and "honorable", with the chance to veto it, it wouldn't come back with an overwhelming majority of no-ways? Then, of course, people would say "Everyone is hating!" But that's what people always say when they are doing cheesy shit to win.

Like playing a fighting game and chaining someone into 50 sweeps in a row.

There is more than just an arbitrary code of honor. I think America's downfall is that its citizens only want accolades... opposed to the respect of their peers.

Now, keep in mind, I am not saying that the decision = video game glitching. I am simply saying that there is a line that you can cross where "winning" doesn't matter anymore or where winning is tainted. Is that the case? I think it depends on who you ask. But that's the point of view.

Personally, if it was Melo and not LeBron, I wouldn't be worried. I was looking forward to seeing LeBron will his team to a championship. I was rooting for him. Now, not so much... the NBA is boring when you know who is going to win. This year, it seems like the Heat are going to win... at least until the Finals and as we've seen... who knows what will happen then.

-Smak
Great post, I agree with pretty much everything.

Yeah.. everyone wants to win. But does winning still have value if:

1) 3 D-league players beat 3 HS players at the playground? (someone's example)
2) a guy beating a girl in armwrestling, basketball
3) heavyweight boxer knocks out lightweight

you get the gist.

[Ne 1]

:oldlol: I like how this was glossed over by Ne 1, because he has no rebuttal for it.

Wade dropping 40 points 16 rebs on 17/25 shooting negated that. He had a couple of games where only the top 2 SG can come up with. When Bosh was out? Heat was down in both series.

But if you want to take the "injuries" route:

- Lockout injuries to Rose
- Lockout injuries to Howard
- Lockout injuries to Allen
- Lockout injuries to Stoudemire

[K Xerxes]

Just want you to see that you completely misread my post earlier. I editted it and explained it for you.

And sorry.. in a hypothetical scenario.. you suddenly want to put in all those real life factors and details in the 2nd paragraph? :oldlol: That's not the point of hypothetical situations is it? You brought the thing up, come on. You started with 0 ring Cavs and 3 ring Heat. You wanted me to choose. I put in a 3rd option to put things in perspective. and NOW you suddenly want to know their rotational, whether battier was on the team or not? :oldlol:

We're talking based on what's on the surface. There's no way that 2 rings Knicks Lebron isn't the greatest of the three.

No, I was trying to explain to you the flaw of your reasoning. You automatically assumed that a team with Wade and Bosh is more 'stacked' than a team with Amare. Possible, and maybe probably, but it isn't always the case because the most successful team is not always because it has more allstars on it than every other team. The best team has a lot of parts to it. Miami lost in 2011 because Dallas was the better team and were better prepared, but Miami had a more glamorous collection of stars.

2 rings LeBron on the Knicks may be the greatest of the three, but so what? A 2 ring LeBron on the Bobcats would be greater than all the other three, I'm sure.

However, a ringed LeBron (with FMVPs) on a stacked team would be considered greater than a ringless LeBron on the Cavs in the eyes of most people. That will always be true. History remembers winners, not players that were great on teams but could never get it done. Regardless of what LeBron did in Cleveland statistically or with individual awards, he would have gone down as the ringless wonder or the greatest player to never have won. He wanted to change that, fair enough. I'm sure he's sorry that he didn't go to the team with the least amount of talent, but just enough talent to win. Just to appease you and others of course.

[Solefade]

Great post, I agree with pretty much everything.

Yeah.. everyone wants to win. But does winning still have value if:

1) 3 D-league players beat 3 HS players at the playground? (someone's example)
2) a guy beating a girl in armwrestling, basketball
3) heavyweight boxer knocks out lightweight

you get the gist.

Where you get confused is, Miami Heat isn't head and shoulders above everyone else. At the end of last year, no one gave a chance for Miami to win but now that they look unstoppable this year, the talks about him joining a stacked team are all resurfacing again suddenly.

[Rake2204]

Play hypotheticals with me. We have two LeBrons:

LeBron 1 stays in Cleveland for the rest of his career and the first seven years of his career is basically like the last 10 or so. So he ends up ringless.

LeBron 2 is current LeBron that has already won a ring and looks destined for multiple championships (even by your admission). However, he is on a better team with Wade and Bosh. Let's say he hypothetically ends up with 3-5 rings and the same number of FMVPs.

Both LeBrons have the same number of MVPs, accolades and statistical achievements as each other. Who ends up as the 'greater' player in the eyes of most people?I've always wondered what role the media and "general consensus" played in LeBron's decision. I think you're right - a player who's awesome but has won zero rings would be viewed by many as being inferior to a player with the same exact amount of awesomeness but with more rings. However, I do not think that should be the case.

If LeBron James were a lifelong Cavalier and somehow never won an NBA championship, I'd undoubtedly have him ranked as one of the best players of all-time. With his one ring in Miami (and perhaps more), I believe I'd still view him in the same exact light (in terms of ability). To me, it's clear as day (and it has been for a while) that LeBron James was incredibly special. If I had to pick a specific day where I knew I was watching one of the greatest players of my lifetime, I'd go back to his 48 point performance against the Pistons in '07. The NBA could have surrounded him with high school teammates for the rest of his career and I'd still view him as one of the all-time greats.

The only thing that seems to have changed for James is his teammate support. With a greater team, James has been able to help that team achieve a great team goal. I don't think that makes James any greater than he already was. It just means a team he tried to mega stack finally broke through.

As you said though, there's a strange belief throughout all of basketball media and fandom that states a great player is somehow only as great as his team success. Every. Single. Player must have outstanding team contributions and support in order to win a championship. If it's not there, winning becomes a lot tougher, if not virtually impossible.

But again, you mention "most people" so in terms of what I hear on message boards and ESPN, maybe you're right. Maybe championship rings magically makes them believe LeBron James is great (when he was actually great all along). But for me, LeBron James would have been just as great in my eyes as a Cavalier, Heater, or Pelican.

As the honest truth, I would have enjoyed James' legacy a lot more if he'd continued striving for success in Cleveland. As some others have said, even if he hadn't won a ring to that point, I feel it was only a matter of time before it all came together for him there, and it would have been great to see. But with the Heat, I don't find any fun or enjoyment in watching a mega team win like everyone thought they would.

[ripthekik]

2 rings LeBron on the Knicks may be the greatest of the three, but so what? A 2 ring LeBron on the Bobcats would be greater than all the other three, I'm sure.

However, a ringed LeBron (with FMVPs) on a stacked team would be considered greater than a ringless LeBron on the Cavs in the eyes of most people. That will always be true. History remembers winners, not players that were great on teams but could never get it done. Regardless of what LeBron did in Cleveland statistically or with individual awards, he would have gone down as the ringless wonder or the greatest player to never have won. He wanted to change that, fair enough. I'm sure he's sorry that he didn't go to the team with the least amount of talent, but just enough talent to win. Just to appease you and others of course.
This is like the 4th or 5th time and I'm tired of it. I DON'T GIVE A F ABOUT LEBRON STAYING IN CLEVELAND!! Get it in your damn head. Why do people think Lebron's only options are Cavs or Heat???? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I'm glad you agreed 2 rings Knicks Lebron would be the greatest. That's my point, because that was one of his options. Stacked Heat or Cavs forever were NOT his only options. That made your whole paragraph above moot.

He had the option to go somewhere else like New York and be greater than what he is perceived to be now. That was my point. He didn't had to ring-chase. He could still be as great by choosing other options.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Do you think if every player in the NBA outside of the Heat roster voted on whether what they did was "fair" and "honorable", with the chance to veto it, it wouldn't come back with an overwhelming majority of no-ways? Then, of course, people would say "Everyone is hating!" But that's what people always say when they are doing cheesy shit to win.

Like playing a fighting game and chaining someone into 50 sweeps in a row.

There is more than just an arbitrary code of honor. I think America's downfall is that its citizens only want accolades... opposed to the respect of their peers.

Now, keep in mind, I am not saying that the decision = video game glitching. I am simply saying that there is a line that you can cross where "winning" doesn't matter anymore or where winning is tainted. Is that the case? I think it depends on who you ask. But that's the point of view.

Personally, if it was Melo and not LeBron, I wouldn't be worried. I was looking forward to seeing LeBron will his team to a championship. I was rooting for him. Now, not so much... the NBA is boring when you know who is going to win. This year, it seems like the Heat are going to win... at least until the Finals and as we've seen... who knows what will happen then.

-Smak

Good post.

And what's with people (err, clowns) using MVP's to complete player comparisons/determine who the best player in the league is? :confusedshrug:

Was Iverson better than Shaq in 2001
Was Nash better than Duncan in 2005?
Was Nash better than Kobe in 2006?

Y'all need better talking points. :oldlol:

[NumberSix]

Great post, I agree with pretty much everything.

Yeah.. everyone wants to win. But does winning still have value if:

1) 3 D-league players beat 3 HS players at the playground? (someone's example)
2) a guy beating a girl in armwrestling, basketball
3) heavyweight boxer knocks out lightweight

you get the gist.
Or maybe, just maybe, you could develop some common sense and stop judging an individual player based on what the team he's a member of achieves.

Don't give a **** how many rings or FMVPs Tony Parker has. He's not a better PG than Chris Paul.

[FLDFSU]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]"It

[ripthekik]

Or maybe, just maybe, you could develop some common sense and stop judging an individual player based on what the team he's a member of achieves.

Don't give a **** how many rings or FMVPs Tony Parker has. He's not a better PG than Chris Paul.
Great idea. If Lebron had known this, he wouldn't have had to ring-chase. You should've told him, not me.

[PJR]

Wade dropping 40 points 16 rebs on 17/25 shooting negated that. He had a couple of games where only the top 2 SG can come up with. When Bosh was out? Heat was down in both series.

But if you want to take the "injuries" route:

- Lockout injuries to Rose
- Lockout injuries to Howard
- Lockout injuries to Allen
- Lockout injuries to Stoudemire


Yeah, and in the Eastern series where that the Heat fell behind, LeBron posted a 40/18/9 in one game, and 45/15/5 in another.

Sounds like someone who was really carried. :confusedshrug:

[Goldrush25]

Great post, I agree with pretty much everything.

Yeah.. everyone wants to win. But does winning still have value if:

1) 3 D-league players beat 3 HS players at the playground? (someone's example)
2) a guy beating a girl in armwrestling, basketball
3) heavyweight boxer knocks out lightweight

you get the gist.

I get what you're trying to say. But everyone in the NBA is extremely good at basketball. You don't get to the NBA unless you are NBA caliber. There's too many ball players out there that don't make the cut. Even the "scrubs" of the NBA would wipe the floor with any street baller or non-professional.

In regards to acquiring talent, teams in the NBA are only limited by the amount of luxury tax their owners are prepared to pay.

Owners are rich. The thing that most people don't know about rich people is that they're penny pinchers by rule. They'd rather stay rich than take a ton of risks and risk not being rich anymore. They take risks on the way up, but not so much when they're on top.

The reason why so many NBA teams can't compete is because they have owners that don't want to take a lot of risk anymore (see Donald Sterling stories), not that there is some inherent uneven playing field. OKC could've kept James Harden, and they would've been the odds on favorite to win the NBA title. But the owner, for whatever reason, didn't feel he was worth the risk.

Personally my feeling is, win the championships and the subsequent rewards from merchandising, season tickets will make up the difference or at least soften the blow. But I will admit I'm not the one with billions of dollars at stake.

[K Xerxes]

This is like the 4th or 5th and I'm tired of it. I DON'T GIVE A F ABOUT LEBRON STAYING IN CLEVELAND!! Get it in your damn head. Why do people think Lebron's only options are Cavs or Heat???? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I'm glad you agreed 2 rings Knicks Lebron would be the greatest. That's my point, because that was one of his options. Stacked Heat or Cavs forever were NOT his only options. That made your whole paragraph above moot.

He had the option to go somewhere else like New York and be greater than what he is perceived to be now. That was my point. He didn't had to ring-chase. He could still be as great by choosing other options.

I'll say this one more time, and if you cannot grasp the point I am making, we're finished here. Honestly, I should have known better than to engage with you...

LeBron had achieved everything in Cleveland except win a championship. He had the stats, the invidivdual accolades, the MVPs. Everything, except a ring. The missing ring that you probably bashed him for three years ago before you shifted your agenda to 'only capable of winning on a stacked team'.

Now he wanted to leave Cleveland to do just that and finish off his resume. Why would he not go to a team that would maximise his chances? He left to a team that he felt would give him the best opportunity to win a ring.

You say that 2 ring LeBron at the Knicks would be the greatest. Now, why do you assume LeBron would get two rings with *only* Amare on his team? The same Amare that is riddled with injuries and defensively inept? You say the team wouldn't be as good as Miami (that's your whole point), so why would LeBron have taken more of a risk going to the Knicks, just so that he can appease people like you that downgrade LeBron's championship because he went to an 'already stacked team'. Why?

You're operating on a slippery slope. What is the boundary between 'too stacked' a team and not? Because if you set one down, you're at risk of sliding down until the only acceptable winner is a lone superstar on a Bobcats level team. (Hyperbole, but you should see my point).

[ripthekik]

I'll say this one more time, and if you cannot grasp the point I am making, we're finished here. Honestly, I should have known better than to engage with you...

LeBron had achieved everything in Cleveland except win a championship. He had the stats, the invidivdual accolades, the MVPs. Everything, except a ring. The missing ring that you probably bashed him for three years ago before you shifted your agenda to 'only capable of winning on a stacked team'.

Now he wanted to leave Cleveland to do just that and finish off his resume. Why would he not go to a team that would maximise his chances? He left to a team that he felt would give him the best opportunity to win a ring.

You say that 2 ring LeBron at the Knicks would be the greatest. Now, why do you assume LeBron would get two rings with *only* Amare on his team? The same Amare that is riddled with injuries and defensively inept? You say the team wouldn't be as good as Miami (that's your whole point), so why would LeBron have taken more of a risk going to the Knicks, just so that he can appease people like you that downgrade LeBron's championship because he went to an 'already stacked team'. Why?

You're operating on a slippery slope. What is the boundary between 'too stacked' a team and not? Because if you set one down, you're at risk of sliding down until the only acceptable winner is a lone superstar on a Bobcats level team. (Hyperbole, but you should see my point).

Yeap we're done. You never got my point that he had OTHER options and could still play on great teams other than the stacked Heat or lowly Cavs.

Anyways, to the other guys, it was a great discussion. I've leaving my comp now so won't be able to contribute further, but I'm sure other guys will pick up.

[NumberSix]

This is like the 4th or 5th time and I'm tired of it. I DON'T GIVE A F ABOUT LEBRON STAYING IN CLEVELAND!! Get it in your damn head. Why do people think Lebron's only options are Cavs or Heat???? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I'm glad you agreed 2 rings Knicks Lebron would be the greatest. That's my point, because that was one of his options. Stacked Heat or Cavs forever were NOT his only options. That made your whole paragraph above moot.

He had the option to go somewhere else like New York and be greater than what he is perceived to be now. That was my point. He didn't had to ring-chase. He could still be as great by choosing other options.
What's the point of leaving Cleveland to go to New York? Sure, it's a bigger city, but its just as bad of a franchise. It's like saying "he could have left Cleveland and gone to Milwaukee". Sure, he COULD have, but why the fcuk would you?

[Ne 1]

Sounds like someone who was really carried. :confusedshrug:

And now you've resorted to Straw Man Argumentation or just flat-out misrepresentation.

[Doranku]

What's the point of leaving Cleveland to go to New York? Sure, it's a bigger city, but its just as bad of a franchise. It's like saying "he could have left Cleveland and gone to Milwaukee". Sure, he COULD have, but why the fcuk would you?
Did you just compare going to New York with going to Milwaukee? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[305Baller]

Worked for Gollum.

[NumberSix]

Did you just compare going to New York with going to Milwaukee? :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Yes, I absolutely did.

When LeBron left Cleveland, NYK was a franchise that hadn't won a single playoff game in a decade. Is there some reason why they shouldn't be compared to The Bucks?

[FLDFSU]

James, Wade and Bosh all have flaws in their basketball abilities, but far less than 99.9% of the NBA. They are the competitive advantage. My D1 to high school analogy inadvertently suggested I thought that gap was equal to the Heat vs. Rest of NBA difference. I really only meant to clearly illustrate an instance where three of the best players opt to team up against opponents who'd only sometimes have even one player of similar caliber.

I'm thankful teams did not decide to lay down and concede victory to the LBJ/Wade/Bosh Heat. I actually bet some did but many (particularly the Mavericks) refused to give in. The same actually tends to happen on the aforementioned street courts. I've been a part of runs where all the best players try to team up and walk their way through everyone. Often they succeed, but sometimes the less talented are able to rise up and overcome. Some may argue it even makes victory sweeter for the underdog.

But win or lose, I never find it to be a good look for those top tier folks trying to stack and roll with ease. And that was kind of the feeling with James' move. It felt unique in comparison to many of the other "good player moving to good team" situations I've witnessed growing up. I just couldn't shake the feel that his primary goal was take the easiest path possible toward winning a ring then expecting everyone to marvel at his accomplishment.

As I mentioned earlier, I think it just speaks to my personal interpretation of sport. I am not a "win at all costs" person. If I was, I'd probably only play ball against fifth graders. Or, if playing against people my own age, I'd attempt to only play on the same team as the best players. I just don't view winning as being as black and white as some others do. I really like winning, and I like seeing teams win, but often only if there isn't something crazy going on like a slew of star players attempting to combine their forces Captain Planet style in hopes of cake walking their way to seven easy championship rings. Winning can be impressive, but it becomes less so when someone attempts to tilt the advantage heavily in their favor. And sure, it didn't entirely work out for Miami in year 1, but I think I was equally bothered by the idea as I was by the result.

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.

[NBAller]

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.

I can't rep anyone else cause there's this weird limitation so saying

Good post will have to suffice. :applause:

[PJR]

And now you've resorted to Straw Man Argumentation or just flat-out misrepresentation.

You can't be serious. This is golden coming you. Thats all you do. :oldlol:

Not to mention you're an agenda driven Bryant fanatic, who will denounce and belittle LeBron any chance you get. There's zero objectivity coming from you.

And all the 'reasoning' you give as to why you dislike LeBron and the Heat situation holds up very poorly under scrutiny. You got nothing, sucka.

[DaSeba5]

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.

Yah it's hilarious how people ignorantly label this team as an arrogant bunch who parties in Miami all day and takes every team lightly. They might have thought it would have been easier than it has been, but no way has anything come easy to them. They have worked for everything. There has been nothing easy about it. They were on the brink of elimination. They know what it's like to lose in the Finals. This team has come together perfectly through hard work and dedication.

Everyone sets this Heat team to such a high fvcking standard as if they are the first super team, or stacked team, in NBA history. Instead of other teams bitching about it, they should have the qualities and management skills to create their own big 3. That is why calling them the Miami cHeat is hilarious. They convinced 3 guys to take less money and they did a masterful job putting a good team around them. Miami has always been a first class organization since Riley has been here. People act like the Heat are some team like the Raptors or Bobcats that all of sudden cheated to create this team. Unfvcking believable.

[Boomerang]

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.
when they came together Lebron was the best player, and Wade was already top three. so, they were already the "best" when they "roll out of bed"/ came together.

[PJR]

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.


:applause:


It's really amazing. LeBron is held to a diffrent standard than any player in NBA history.

LeBron SHOULD win titles, but he shouldn't have any great players around him him, and if he does, they can't be TOO great, or they can't be in their primes. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

If you're gonna mention Wade's 40 point game, you should mention his 5 point game too :crazysam:

[DaSeba5]

when they came together Lebron was the best player, and Wade was already top three. so, they were already the "best" when they "roll out of bed"/ came together.

Wade, LeBron, and even Bosh were used to being the first options who always had the ball and were the first options in clutch moments. On paper, you would think Wade and LeBron wouldn't click at all if they are on the court at the same time. I remember when they first came together and people said "there's only one ball." The team played a lot of iso their first year, and even most of the 2nd year, where people just stood around and watched Wade and LeBron carry the team. Wade had to adjust his game to be more of a offball player since LeBron was going to be the first option. He had to get his jumpshot back. Bosh had to become more of a shooter, and he's the one who has had to adjust the most. This team took a long time to get their egos in check and fit together. It was only 2 years ago they would lose every close game. Now almost every close game they win, and we expect them to.

It's not as simple as "Wade is a top 3 player, LeBron is the best, and Bosh is a top 15 player.... easy championship. Don't even need to work."

[Crafty]

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.
April 2013 :applause:

[Solefade]

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.

Great post. :applause:

[FLDFSU]

Yah it's hilarious how people ignorantly label this team as an arrogant bunch who parties in Miami all day and takes every team lightly. They might have thought it would have been easier than it has been, but no way has anything come easy to them. They have worked for everything. There has been nothing easy about it. They were on the brink of elimination. They know what it's like to lose in the Finals. This team has come together perfectly through hard work and dedication.

Everyone sets this Heat team to such a high fvcking standard as if they are the first super team, or stacked team, in NBA history. Instead of other teams bitching about it, they should have the qualities and management skills to create their own big 3. That is why calling them the Miami cHeat is hilarious. They convinced 3 guys to take less money and they did a masterful job putting a good team around them. Miami has always been a first class organization since Riley has been here. People act like the Heat are some team like the Raptors or Bobcats that all of sudden cheated to create this team. Unfvcking believable.

Pretty much.

[Ne 1]

Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much.

LeBron did. Hence why he said they could win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us." We're talking about 2 top 3 NBA players and another perennial All-Star all joining forces in their prime.

Imagine a team in past eras with what most people regard as the best player in the league with another top 3 player that season and add another face of a franchisee top 15/top 5 at their position All-Star and see what we get for example:

Around 1990
Top 1= Michael Jordan
Top 3= Charles Barkley
Star = Brad Daugherty

Around 1995
Top 1= Hakeem Olajuwon
Top 3= David Robinson
Star = Shawn Kemp

Around 2000
Top 1= Shaquille O'neal
Top 3= Tim Duncan
Star = Ray Allen

Around 2005
Top 1= Tim Duncan
Top 3 = Kevin Garnett
Star = Amare Stoudemire

[FLDFSU]

when they came together Lebron was the best player, and Wade was already top three. so, they were already the "best" when they "roll out of bed"/ came together.


What is stopping anyone currently in the NBA from likewise being the best? or top three?

People really gotta stop complaining about the "best" NBA player joining another "top 3" player and "all-star pf."

What exactly is stopping say...the Bulls from becoming the best? Rose, Boozer, Deng...

And if/when that happens can I whine about the Bulls being "too stacked" and petition Stern to strip their title?

I hope most NBA players don't have this attitude. Don't like the Miami Heat? Fine. Do what the Mavs did and beat them!

Once again, the Heat does not get to play with 10 players on the court.

[Solefade]

LeBron carried throughout the entire playoffs consistently last year. There was no game where he wasn't making a big impact for the Miami Heat, even the game against the Pacers where Wade scored 40+ points, LBJ still had 30+ points. LeBron proved he did it with just "good" players (injured superstars) last year when it mattered the most so what else is there that you can really penalize him for?

[Rake2204]

You play to win the game. When does it stop? Can Lebron play with Rondo? or is he "too much" for him? What about Rose and Boozer, can he play with them? What about Dirk? Who decides that Wade, Lebron, and Bosh is too much. The funny thing is I remember people saying that Cleveland was too stacked too. "How much help does Lebron NEED?" was often the response when Cleveland got Jamison in 2010.

Beyond that, I think that Garnett, Pierce, and Allen (plus rondo and doc) is too much. I think Duncan, Paker, and Manu (plus doc) is too much...I think Kobe, Odom, and Pau (plus Jackson) is too much. These were the teams Lebron, Wade, and Bosh each "individual" had to face before signing with the Heat in 2010.

How come those players get to "stack the deck?" The Heat is a simple response to those teams stacking.


And once again, if you cut Lebron, he bleeds. Instead of complaining about Lebron being the best...maybe Rose or Durant or Howard or Jennings or anyone else in the NBA should form their own "super team" by becoming the best themselves and putting in the work and dedication of Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. That way Rose, Boozer, and Deng can have an "unfair competitive advantage too?"

The Heat players didn't just roll out of bed and become the "best." They, like everyone else, work on their craft.I feel LeBron James clearly has the right to do whatever he pleases. So, not to state the obvious, but he could have joined whoever he chose. My platform isn't so much to suggest that what James did was illegal or unfair. Rather, from a personal standpoint, I wasn't a fan of the apparent attempt and intent.

As I mentioned previously, I acknowledge there's been tons of teams brimming with big talent throughout the years. They all came together in various forms and fashions. Sometimes they came together through trade, sometimes through free agency, sometimes through the draft, sometimes a mix of all three. However, somehow, LeBron's Heat situation struck me as unique. I just was not a fan of seeing the best player in the game, at the height of his powers, battling the way I most enjoyed watching him battle (on his homestate team, from the ground up, eyeing to take down super teams, dealing with, maximizing and excelling with the cards he was dealt), in the midst of the championship hunt year in and year out, opting to attempt to forego the grind and trying to make winning as easily as humanly possible by trying to stack a squad in South Beach.

I think I felt it kind of trivialized the idea of winning. I had this feeling that maybe LeBron James was feeling a lot of pressure from people for whom he shouldn't care about, regarding the importance of being a winner and a champion. He probably felt that way as well. And I kind of feel like he felt the best way to appease a demanding public, was to try to go get rings however possible, even if that meant creating a super team, because only then would he earn mass approval. Of course, I could be 3000% wrong about that, but that was part of the feel his move emitted, and that's one of the reasons I was not a fan.

I have a hard time dictating all of my precise issues with his decision. As an NBA fan, it just felt... fishy. I really liked LeBron James in Cleveland because he seemed like a boss yearning to blaze his own path toward glory. Now in Miami, for non-Heat fans, what's there to root for? The greatest player in the game joined forces with two of the other greatest players in the game and subsequently filled in all their key role positions with tremendous role players willing to fit into their salary structure. Now the stacked team is winning a lot, as planned. It's not a great dynamic for fans of competition.

That doesn't mean I think the James move was factually wrong on his part. It just means I wasn't a fan of it and I still am not. If I had a choice, I'd rather be watching a 2013 Eastern Conference Finals between LeBron James and Dwyane Wade instead of watching them walk over folks together.

Also, to clarify, I was not complaining about how LeBron James worked to make himself the best player on the planet (or how Wade and Bosh both worked for their own places near the top of the list). With respect, I'm not sure how such an assumption could have been drawn from my post. I was just saying, factually, their skills are what they are (eclipsing that of most of the league's other players) and given that fact, I did not like the idea of the greatest leaving his first scenario for one that'd theoretically create an "easiest route possible" situation. It's more than his right to have done so, but I find no joy in watching a mega team walk all over opponents as they planned.

[FLDFSU]

:applause:


It's really amazing. LeBron is held to a diffrent standard than any player in NBA history.

LeBron SHOULD win titles, but he shouldn't have any great players around him him, and if he does, they can't be TOO great, or they can't be in their primes. :oldlol:


The funny thing is by placing all these criteria for Lebron James they are illuminating his greatness. They are the ones that EXPECT Lebron to win under any circumstance, with any coach, with any teammates, in any city.

By continuing to move the goal post they are undoubtedly acknowledging (because of his greatness) the standard does not apply to Lebron James...

Boston stack the deck? who cares! Lebron is great enough to over come. Kobe "gets" Pau and a nash and a Howard...no no no...Lebron should STILL not be entitled to a Wade and Bosh because the greatness of Lebron mandates that he should be able to compete with that...largely by himself...

The crying about Lebron's "stacking" the deck proves that it is his Haters who are glorifying Lebron, not his fans.

[FLDFSU]

LeBron did. Hence why he said they could win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us." We're talking about 2 top 3 NBA players and another perennial All-Star all joining forces in their prime.

Imagine a team in past eras with what most people regard as the best player in the league with another top 3 player that season and add another face of a franchisee top 15/top 5 at their position All-Star and see what we get for example:

Around 1990
Top 1= Michael Jordan
Top 3= Charles Barkley
Star = Brad Daugherty

Around 1995
Top 1= Hakeem Olajuwon
Top 3= David Robinson
Star = Shawn Kemp

Around 2000
Top 1= Shaquille O'neal
Top 3= Tim Duncan
Star = Ray Allen

Around 2005
Top 1= Tim Duncan
Top 3 = Kevin Garnett
Star = Amare Stoudemire


You are taking what he said out of context. He stated something to the effect of...we are going to push each other harder each and every day in practice...we are going to challenge each other in practice to be great...THEREFORE once ball is tipped off "its goin be easy."

He also stated he WANTED "to win not one not two not three..."

I was there...go back and listen to what he actually stated.

[PJR]

The funny thing is by placing all these criteria for Lebron James they are illuminating his greatness. They are the ones that EXPECT Lebron to win under any circumstance, with any coach, with any teammates, in any city.

By continuing to move the goal post they are undoubtedly acknowledging (because of his greatness) the standard does not apply to Lebron James...

Boston stack the deck? who cares! Lebron is great enough to over come. Kobe "gets" Pau and a nash and a Howard...no no no...Lebron should STILL not be entitled to a Wade and Bosh because the greatness of Lebron mandates that he should be able to compete with that...largely by himself...

The crying about Lebron's "stacking" the deck proves that it is his Haters who are glorifying Lebron, not his fans.


The bitching about LeBron and the Heat has always been nothing more but a case of emotion overriding logic. People trying to convince ONLY themselves that their loathing has some rationality to it.

Fact of the matter is, team as good as the Heat, relative to the league, have existed before, and will continue to exsist. And how they got there is completly irrelevent.

[FLDFSU]

I feel LeBron James clearly has the right to do whatever he pleases. So, not to state the obvious, but he could have joined whoever he chose. My platform isn't so much to suggest that what James did was illegal or unfair. Rather, from a personal standpoint, I wasn't a fan of the apparent attempt and intent.

As I mentioned previously, I acknowledge there's been tons of teams brimming with big talent throughout the years. They all came together in various forms and fashions. Sometimes they came together through trade, sometimes through free agency, sometimes through the draft, sometimes a mix of all three. However, somehow, LeBron's Heat situation struck me as unique. I just was not a fan of seeing the best player in the game, at the height of his powers, battling the way I most enjoyed watching him battle (on his homestate team, from the ground up, eyeing to take down super teams, dealing with, maximizing and excelling with the cards he was dealt), in the midst of the championship hunt year in and year out, opting to attempt to forego the grind and trying to make winning as easily as humanly possible by trying to stack a squad in South Beach.

I think I felt it kind of trivialized the idea of winning. I had this feeling that maybe LeBron James was feeling a lot of pressure from people for whom he shouldn't care about, regarding the importance of being a winner and a champion. He probably felt that way as well. And I kind of feel like he felt the best way to appease a demanding public, was to try to go get rings however possible, even if that meant creating a super team, because only then would he earn mass approval. Of course, I could be 3000% wrong about that, but that was part of the feel his move emitted, and that's one of the reasons I was not a fan.

I have a hard time dictating all of my precise issues with his decision. As an NBA fan, it just felt... fishy. I really liked LeBron James in Cleveland because he seemed like a boss yearning to blaze his own path toward glory. Now in Miami, for non-Heat fans, what's there to root for? The greatest player in the game joined forces with two of the other greatest players in the game and subsequently filled in all their key role positions with tremendous role players willing to fit into their salary structure. Now the stacked team is winning a lot, as planned. It's not a great dynamic for fans of competition.

That doesn't mean I think the James move was factually wrong on his part. It just means I wasn't a fan of it and I still am not. If I had a choice, I'd rather be watching a 2013 Eastern Conference Finals between LeBron James and Dwyane Wade instead of watching them walk over folks together.

Also, to clarify, I was not complaining about how LeBron James worked to make himself the best player on the planet (or how Wade and Bosh both worked for their own places near the top of the list). With respect, I'm not sure how such an assumption could have been drawn from my post. I was just saying, factually, their skills are what they are (eclipsing that of most of the league's other players) and given that fact, I did not like the idea of the greatest leaving his first scenario for one that'd theoretically create an "easiest route possible" situation.


I also think it is unfair to ask Lebron James to keep trying to run through a brick wall called Boston and LA. And like I said, Pat Riley was going to form ANOTHER "super team" without Lebron James. Chicago maybe another move and they get a "super team" as well.

I just think it is unrealistic to expect James to "blaze his own path to glory" while at the same time acknowledging that Boston has some form of advantage over Lebron.

[PJR]

You are taking what he said out of context. He stated something to the effect of...we are going to push each other harder each and every day in practice...we are going to challenge each other in practice to be great...THEREFORE once ball is tipped off "its goin be easy."

He also stated he WANTED "to win not one not two not three..."

I was there...go back and listen to what he actually stated.

Ofcourse Ne 1 is going to take what LeBron said at a friggin pep rally to HEAT fans way out of context, to help fuel his agenda.

What actualy went down: One of the two host (Eric Reid, Miami Heat play by play guy.) turned to LeBron and commented on how James and Bosh didn't come to Miami for a one time shot at a championship, but to be contenders for years to come. LeBron agreed, and defiantly said he wasn't there to win just once and then settle for that, but to win, and keep winnning. That he would not SETTLE for one, or two, three, etc etc. It was a damn mission statment. He didn't promise 8 titles, or any of that nonsense that some of these clowns will claim. LeBron was only guilty of hyperbole there.

Ofcourse you could draw another conclusion from that if you had a pre-formed opinion of the guy, and had already decided you were going to hate LeBron and the Heat. :oldlol:

[Rake2204]

I also think it is unfair to ask Lebron James to keep trying to run through a brick wall called Boston and LA. And like I said, Pat Riley was going to form ANOTHER "super team" without Lebron James. Chicago maybe another move and they get a "super team" as well.

I just think it is unrealistic to expect James to "blaze his own path to glory" while at the same time acknowledging that Boston has some form of advantage over Lebron.Yep, I feel you. Earlier, you asked what was too much, with examples of James teaming up with Rondo and others. I guess I just felt the collaboration in Miami was too much, particularly when it seemed to be a grand scheme for an easy ring from the three primary fellows involved. JPR mentioned people's emotions and I think he's right in that regard. I don't think James' decision was legally too much. Just from my own singular emotional fan standpoint, it was kind of like, "Okay guys... that's a little too far... and you're not acting super modest about this stuff either..."

On the flip side, I think I might believe how a team comes together also plays a role. It was just tough for me to get behind the greatest player in the world jumping ship to create a mega team with all those things like the hour long special, the opening ceremonies, and the intent on rendering competition as insignificant as possible. I'm not a fan of basketball just to tally wins and losses. I'm a fan of how it's played, who's playing it, how they got to where they are, what they did, who's overcoming odds, etc. And in this case, I'm just not a big fan of how this Miami team came together, what it feels like they stand for, or what they do on the court.

[HeatFanSince88]

People are just mad that their team gets owned by them so they cry about how the team is stacked. If it was their team they'd be sitting there talking shit and laughing. That's what it comes down to.

[aburre21]

Do you think if every player in the NBA outside of the Heat roster voted on whether what they did was "fair" and "honorable", with the chance to veto it, it wouldn't come back with an overwhelming majority of no-ways? Then, of course, people would say "Everyone is hating!" But that's what people always say when they are doing cheesy shit to win.

Like playing a fighting game and chaining someone into 50 sweeps in a row.

There is more than just an arbitrary code of honor. I think America's downfall is that its citizens only want accolades... opposed to the respect of their peers.

Now, keep in mind, I am not saying that the decision = video game glitching. I am simply saying that there is a line that you can cross where "winning" doesn't matter anymore or where winning is tainted. Is that the case? I think it depends on who you ask. But that's the point of view.

Personally, if it was Melo and not LeBron, I wouldn't be worried. I was looking forward to seeing LeBron will his team to a championship. I was rooting for him. Now, not so much... the NBA is boring when you know who is going to win. This year, it seems like the Heat are going to win... at least until the Finals and as we've seen... who knows what will happen then.

-Smak


what? In the 90s, you didn't know the bulls would win? In the early 2000s, you didn't know the Lakers would win? The NBA has always been predictable, why do you think two franchises have so many titles? The NBA has always been filled with stacked teams, Idk why people acting like this shit is something new :facepalm


You think NBA players thought it was fair that Kobe got to play with Shaq? Ask AI, Tmac, Ray Allen and VC and they all wished they could've had talent like that.



Ask Clyde Drexler how he felt about those Celtics and Lakers teams? Matter of fact, I'll post his opinion myself

"Basically what they’ve done is what the Celtics and Lakers have done for years, assemble four or five great players at the same time who can compete in the prime of their careers," Drexler said "If you look back on that, history will tell you that those are the team that have the most championships.

"I used to tell Magic all the time in the ’80s and ‘90s, when they were 'Showtime,' that if we switch teams, you would see what it’s like over here. I told Bird the same thing. …

"They had four or five Hall of Famers playing with them at the same time. C’mon. You gotta win when that happens. That’s what Miami has done. There’s nothing new about it."

:applause:

[FLDFSU]

Ofcourse Ne 1 is going to take what LeBron said at a friggin pep rally to HEAT fans way out of context, to help fuel his agenda.

What actualy went down: One of the two host (Eric Reid, Miami Heat play by play guy.) turned to LeBron and commented on how James and Bosh didn't come to Miami for a one time shot at a championship, but to be contenders for years to come. LeBron agreed, and defiantly said he wasn't there to win just once and then settle for that, but to win, and keep winnning. That he would not SETTLE for one, or two, three, etc etc. It was a damn mission statment. He didn't promise 8 titles, or any of that nonsense that some of these clowns will claim. LeBron was only guilty of hyperbole there.

Ofcourse you could draw another conclusion from that if you had a pre-formed opinion of the guy, and had already decided you were going to hate LeBron and the Heat. :oldlol:

:applause: It is good to know there are people on ISH that actually pays attention.

[FLDFSU]

People are just mad that their team gets owned by them so they cry about how the team is stacked. If it was their team they'd be sitting there talking shit and laughing. That's what it comes down to.

I have always thought if Lebron, Wade and Bosh would have done this in Chicago or NY the backlash would not have been nearly as great.

In fact the first time I heard of the idea of this triple getting together was months before by a NEW YORK newspaper urging Wade, Amare, and James to "take a little" less and bring basketball back to NYC.

The next time I heard this concept was by a Chicago Newspaper taking about Wade, Lebron, and Joe Johnson joining Rose in Chicago when all the free agents were supposed to have that "summit."

The reason why the Hate is so great is NOT because Miami thought of this idea first but it is because they actually DID it AND the South Florida sport fans and Media is soo indifferent as compared to NYC and Chicago or even Cleveland.

Remember it was not only Miami that cleared cap space. Chicago, NYC, Clippers, and Nets ALL did it hoping to get at least 2 "stars."

[BlackVVaves]

I do not understand why people want LeBron to stick his ass in Cleveland. a player only got that 10 to 15 years to do his thing. and of this decade or so they will only have around 3 years of peak forms in them.
Some may stick around longer i.e Nash, Kobe. For those unfortunates, they may already be out of the game before we witness their prime, most of which robbed by injuries. We never got to see what Penny, Hill, and recent stars Roy and Oden could achieve in the NBA.

For the old dudes 'ring-chasing' at their dying old age, people will still discredit them as 'a shell of the past' or just living on the court by his name. So is it a bad thing to ring chase early, while they still play in their primes? Is it not a blessing to see them win Finals in their peak forms?
Say if Nash had ditch Phoenix early in his prime to join the Magic with Dwight and won the 2009 championship. He would have been the best player on the team earning his ring and fmvp. or would u rather see old ass Nash winning in LA who's only contribution was to bring the ball up the mid court and dumps it to Kobe.

It's commonly said that real Alphas should stay in their city and attract Betas to join them, not the other way round. But fact being some franchises, as good as their star may be, just can't build their teams right, or that their markets weren't big enough to attract other stars. Not every is a Kobe or Duncan, some have to pave their career path. If LBJ had stayed in Cleveland, people will still be laughing at his 0 titles and padding his stats for 'worthless MVPs', but he played his contract up. He did did some shits here and there making dramas and all, but I'm glad he brought his talents to south beach where we could witness the best player in the NBA perform at a bigger stage, not just carrying his crappy team to the POs every season to get bumped in the R2 or 3.

And give credits where it's due. He's playing his ass off and being a true leader on the court, not just riding his teammates to easy titles. Earning everything awarded to him out there.


Great post and good point. Lebron may be playing on the most dynamically gifted team in the NBA, but he's also the best player on that team, and in the league. That has to account for something.



Exactly. It's completely different when the best player in the league, jumps on to a team with the "other" best player in the NBA who had also been putting together historical statistical seasons along with another top 15-20 perennial All-Star.

Imagine Walton and Kareem joining in '77, or Magic and Bird joining from '86-'88, Jordan and Hakeem or Barkley joining in '93, Shaq and Duncan joining around '99-'03 or Russell and Chamberlain teaming up in the 60s, because you know why? These guys were not only thought of as the two best players in the league, but also at the same level as the other guy, just like LeBron and Wade. They colluded together in free agency to create by far the most talented team in the league. LeBron knew the route to a championship and multiple rings was tremendously easier than it would have been playing anywhere else. Hence why he said he believed they could win 8 rings and "once the game starts, it's gonna be easy" and why Wade said "I feel sorry for whoever has to guard us" and why LeBron joked that Pat Riley could return to his playing days and play alongside them and that it would still be easy.

Basically LeBron's mindset is "I need this ring to be considered great, what's the easiest way to get it" not "I want to rip your heart out and prove I'm the best."


Another great post with good points. I think it's clear from the way past legends (like Jordan himself) reacted that they were simply of a different mindset in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Shoot, even the early 2000s. I think there was more of a sense of ownership back then. Elite players had their plot of land, and their pregorative was to protect and conquer. The change of basketball environments has altered that in this new age, and it's reflected in how elite players think. It's not like MJ wasn't tight with Ewing or Barkley. But, he wanted to destroy them, then talk it over some drinks at a steakhouse. Just a different time period, I suppose.



There's most certainly folks out there with an agenda against LeBron James. Whether they be Cavaliers fans, fans of James' rivals, or just flat out people who don't like the look of LeBron himself, there's a lot of people out there like that who exist. I think these people will sometimes make strange arguments about why they think LeBron moving to another team was wrong as a thinly veiled means of criticizing James as a player and person.

However, I believe there's also a large group of people who are absent of an agenda but still had an issue with his move to Miami. I am one of those people. As a fan of the NBA and basketball in general, something just felt off when I discovered James would be headed to Miami. Other players had signed to play alongside big talent before, but I never felt as poorly as when James made his move.

I've said this before, but I think I felt it went beyond, "I just want the best chance to win." It felt like someone was trying to take the quickest and easiest route to foregoing competition. It was like the three 6'6'' D-1 players at the park insisting upon being on the same team then feeling accomplished once they dismantled their high school-level opponents.

I think a lot of my issue stems from the lack of importance I place on championship rings when labeling my best basketball players of all-time. Being a team game, I don't feel all championships were created equal. I find the "This great player has ____ championships and this great player only has _____, so the first player's obviously better" argument to be one of the great misnomers in all of sports.

So in that regard, the feeling of James attempting to win a ring at all costs, even if that means attempting to create a team improbably juiced at nearly every single role, struck me the wrong way. It felt like someone was trying their best to make the game as noncompetitive as possible, and then expecting praise for his wonderful accomplishment.

I don't hate LeBron James, but I certainly do not root for the Heat. I'm a Pistons fan, but I really enjoyed James' time in Cleveland. As a fan of the game, that was fun because there was more of a feeling of James going out and taking it against all comers, regardless of how big the other markets were or how stacked they were. James was awesome enough to lead the way and made normal teammates look outstanding. So to go from that to James leading an evil empire where he's still the best player in the game, but now also running alongside those he used to try to fight through.... it's a real bummer.

Terrific insight. Yeah, something definitely did feel wrong about the way everything transpired. The results are admirable, and he (and Bosh, and Wade) was certainly free to do whatever he pleased. He played out his contract, he was a free agent. And, he wanted to join an organization that could assemble a competitive team around him. But still...maybe it's the colluding amongst superstars that took place prior to them actually joining forces. I respect Lebron for the great player he is, and the Heat for the dominant team they have exhibited. But, summer 2010 will always feel a bit off to me, as it does with many fans of the game. Still, the fact remains, only 2, MAYBE 3 teams have ever won a championship since the merger with only one star player and an array of role players. And, those teams that WERE able to do that employed a big that was not only the best big in the league, but one of the Top 10 players of all time.

People either don't realize, or refuse to realize, that aside from the last 3 years, the MOST important position in the NBA was the center position. Bigs are able to impact the game more profoundly, as they can control an entire section of the court both offensively, and defensively. How they play and how they are utilized can make or break a team's title hopes. Look at Chris Bosh last season, look how vital his return from injury was to Miami's championship run. Look how much of an impact a former role player Tyson Chandler had on turning the Mavs from pretenders to contenders. Look how the addition of KG, Pau Gasol, Ben Wallace and Shaq turned around the fortunesd of the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, and Heat. People are always quick to say how Kobe for instance needs a elite big to "win." And, I always laugh to myself, because if those idiots knew anything of the history of the game, they would know that the only perimeter player in the last 25 years to win a championship without a star big beside him was Michael Jordan. Who, by no coincidence, is largely considered the GOAT.

And so, Lebron's chances of winning a ring without star help was slim. He may not have needed to do it the way he did, but to win a chip, acquiring some formidable teammates was essential.



Here is the thing, nobody will remember Lebron having a stacked team because he's the star of the team. Do people talk about Bird being on a stacked team? Do people underrate Magic or Kareems legacy because they were on a stacked team? What people will remember is all his championships, his stats and his MVP's.

The BS guys like ripthekik are talking about will never even be on anyones mind once its all over and done.

I'm almost certain I've seen you make this very insinuation in the past few years regarding certain players or teams being "stacked," indicating said player or team was less great or impressive due to it.

[Goldrush25]

I think I felt it kind of trivialized the idea of winning. I had this feeling that maybe LeBron James was feeling a lot of pressure from people for whom he shouldn't care about, regarding the importance of being a winner and a champion. He probably felt that way as well. And I kind of feel like he felt the best way to appease a demanding public, was to try to go get rings however possible, even if that meant creating a super team, because only then would he earn mass approval. Of course, I could be 3000% wrong about that, but that was part of the feel his move emitted, and that's one of the reasons I was not a fan.
.

You're not alone in that sentiment. It's been my entire premise that LeBron has been one that has had the pressure of proving everyone right, trying to live up to being a legend the minute he entered the league, whereas players like MJ and Kobe have based their careers off of proving everyone wrong. Lebron had the accolades before he actually did anything to earn them.

I believe he would've won a championship no matter where he was, but I think in his mind he feels pressure to rack up a bunch of rings immediately to appease the people that may be thinking they were wrong about annointing him the "Chosen One."

[ripthekik]

The funny thing is by placing all these criteria for Lebron James they are illuminating his greatness. They are the ones that EXPECT Lebron to win under any circumstance, with any coach, with any teammates, in any city.

By continuing to move the goal post they are undoubtedly acknowledging (because of his greatness) the standard does not apply to Lebron James...

Boston stack the deck? who cares! Lebron is great enough to over come. Kobe "gets" Pau and a nash and a Howard...no no no...Lebron should STILL not be entitled to a Wade and Bosh because the greatness of Lebron mandates that he should be able to compete with that...largely by himself...

The crying about Lebron's "stacking" the deck proves that it is his Haters who are glorifying Lebron, not his fans.
And yet Lebron fans are undermining him, claiming the only way for him to win a ring is through a stacked team, and the easiest way possible is the best :rolleyes:

I thought he was supposed to be the best player in the NBA?

There is a difference between this 3, and other stars of the league. 2 of them were top 3 players. Including the best in the league. That is something that never happens in nba history. Why can't other stars do it? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm Stop being stupid.

[KOBE143]

Yeah ring chasing is such a stupid term.. We should replace it with LeBron.. So when someone is ringchasing we could say he's a LeBron.. :confusedshrug:

[Ne 1]

You can't be serious. This is golden coming you. Thats all you do. :oldlol:

Not to mention you're an agenda driven Bryant fanatic, who will denounce and belittle LeBron any chance you get. There's zero objectivity coming from you.

And all the 'reasoning' you give as to why you dislike LeBron and the Heat situation holds up very poorly under scrutiny. You got nothing, sucka.
Now you've resorted to ad hominem attacks and hypocrisy appeals. Seems like all you've got is red herring tactics.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread, but didn't James use the term 'ring-chasing' himself when it was convenient to describe other people's professional choices?


Yes... Yes he did.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/15bmna.jpg

[NBAller]

just for the record, i don't deny that he's ring chasing. (lol)


everyone in the ****ing league is either ring chasing or money chasing....

what else is there to chase? to chase something is to have a goal in mind. something you want.

how that's negative? lol, only the trolls know.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread, but didn't James use the term 'ring-chasing' himself when it was convenient to describe other people's professional choices?


Yes... Yes he did.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/15bmna.jpg


Ouch. Lebronytes should use this to refresh their memories. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[uoykcuf]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread, but didn't James use the term 'ring-chasing' himself when it was convenient to describe other people's professional choices?


Yes... Yes he did.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/15bmna.jpg

Going by that definition of "ring chasing" - clearly he (nor Bosh) didn't because Miami was not stacked when they decided to go there and their regular season record in 09-10 was 47-35. The team they joined also lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Celtics in 5 games.

I know most people already know this but it's easy to forget. However, anyone who joined the Heat after they won it all would obviously then fit this "ring chasing" criteria.

[ripthekik]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread, but didn't James use the term 'ring-chasing' himself when it was convenient to describe other people's professional choices?


Yes... Yes he did.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/15bmna.jpg
:roll: :roll: :roll:
:applause:

great pic, great pic

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread, but didn't James use the term 'ring-chasing' himself when it was convenient to describe other people's professional choices?


Yes... Yes he did.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/15bmna.jpg

Ouch fanbois! More evidence to avoid like the plague. :oldlol:

[STATUTORY]

I'm sure this has been brought up in this thread, but didn't James use the term 'ring-chasing' himself when it was convenient to describe other people's professional choices?


Yes... Yes he did.

http://oi37.tinypic.com/15bmna.jpg

:applause: dat ether

and very few fans have problems with veterans on the decline who join other teams to try and revitalize their career. but when the arguable top player in the league abandons his team and joins forces with 2 other top 10 players that's not ring chasing. that's a disgrace.

[rsoares28]

Wow this thread was long to get through. Its clear both sides will never agree..and rightfully so as strong arguments can be made ON both sides.

I just don't like it when ppl on the LBj side talk about how you need stacked teams to win ships... bird had a stacked team, magic, kobe/shaq, jordan etc. Yes those teams were stacked however... and this is the point.......Those teams were built organically.. totally different than what the heat has done.

I understand the part about wanting to win a ring and Cleveland was not the place to do it.. I get that... but what lebron did (in his prime with other athletes in their prime) has no precedent... it has never been done before. And that is the reason why basketball purists and the legends of the game spoke out against it.

That's the argument a lot of posters against what Lebron did is saying but I keep seeing the lebron apologists side stepping the issue and going back to "everyone wants to ring a ring, can you blame him... keep working at McDonalds your whole life" etc.

[longtime lurker]

There's a reason why guys on the tail end of their careers don't get blamed for ring chasing and why it's joke that players in their primes team up to ring chase.

[Goldrush25]

Wow this thread was long to get through. Its clear both sides will never agree..and rightfully so as strong arguments can be made ON both sides.

I just don't like it when ppl on the LBj side talk about how you need stacked teams to win ships... bird had a stacked team, magic, kobe/shaq, jordan etc. Yes those teams were stacked however... and this is the point.......Those teams were built organically.. totally different than what the heat has done.

.

So what is a player to do if his front office is incapable of "stacking" the player's original team? Does that player just have to sit there and take it, or does he get some credit for taking charge/accountablity for his own career?


And why is it only acceptable to "ring chase" when your body is failing you and you're just a shell of your former self? What legitimacy does the ring have at that point. They likely didn't even need the former great to win.

[Lebron23]

Bosh and LeBron were free agents in 2010. The Cavaliers failed to build a good team around LeBron. Even Prime Jordan wouldn't win a championship with Mo Williams as the 2nd scoring option of his team.

Even Mike Brown failed to led the stacked Lakers in the 2nd round of the 2011 NBA playoffs. Lebron led the Cavaliers deeper into the playoffs. He led his team in points, rebounds, steals, and assists.

[ripthekik]

So what is a player to do if his front office is incapable of "stacking" the player's original team? Does that player just have to sit there and take it, or does he get some credit for taking charge/accountablity for his own career?


And why is it only acceptable to "ring chase" when your body is failing you and you're just a shell of your former self? What legitimacy does the ring have at that point. They likely didn't even need the former great to win.
Some people here don't get the point. Leaving his worthless front office is not why he is criticized. :oldlol:

And lebron23 reminded me..
hey.. at the time it happened.. almost everyone in the league thought it was a cheap move. That it was an easy way out, and ring chasing.

Pretty much all the legends - MJ, Magic, Bird all came out to say it. If anyone wants to see the quotes I can post them here too.

Like I said, there is just no way, no matter how you twist it and bend it, to say that it was not taking the easy way out and ring chasing. If you support it, fine, but you can't say it's not a shortcut.

[Goldrush25]

Some people here don't get the point. Leaving his worthless front office is not why he is criticized. :oldlol:

And lebron23 reminded me..
hey.. at the time it happened.. almost everyone in the league thought it was a cheap move. That it was an easy way out, and ring chasing.

Pretty much all the legends - MJ, Magic, Bird all came out to say it. If anyone wants to see the quotes I can post them here too.

Like I said, there is just no way, no matter how you twist it and bend it, to say that it was not taking the easy way out and ring chasing. If you support it, fine, but you can't say it's not a shortcut.

OK, I would like to see the quotes where these greats said that the Big 3 took a shortcut. I'm pretty sure they didn't say that. If anything you're the one that's twisting things.

What I heard them say, was that they wouldn't have ever done that. The common sentiment between them was that they wanted to beat each other. And that's completely predictable for them to say something like that. But they're coming from a perspective of belonging to organizations with great front offices, so how are they qualified to comment on being stuck in second rate organizations, when in fact, they're were part of the 3 most successful NBA organizations ever?

I don't really have any opinion on "shortcut" or "not a shortcut." I just don't believe in your idealism. Results are the bottom line.

"Freiderich Nietzche believed that morality is just a fiction used by the herd of inferior human beings to hold back the few superior men."

I think people want to say that the Big 3 did something inherently unethical or immoral just to diminish any accomplishments that may result from their union...just my opinion. The most successful people in this world are the ones that go out and take what they want (legally of course). Not maximizing your chances to be successful isn't a virtuous trait in my eyes, it's a sign of weakness.

I respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.

[NumberSix]

Freiderich Nietzche believed that morality is just a fiction used by the herd of inferior human beings to hold back the few superior men
Pretty much. It's like when women were still treated like cattle, some people decided its "immoral" to have multiple women/wives? Guess why? Because they had no women. The small amount of alpha males had all the women. If you create an environment where its "immoral" to have multiple women, there's enough to go around and every man gets a woman.

Just look at a lion pride. You generally will have one or two dominant males with 5-10 lionesses. If your not a dominant male, you live alone and you have nothing.

[STATUTORY]

"Freiderich Nietzche believed that morality is just a fiction used by the herd of inferior human beings to hold back the few superior men."



that's a very superficial HS reading of Nietzsche

[Goldrush25]

that's a very superficial HS reading of Nietzsche

For the purposes of reinforcing my premise it's sufficient. No need to expound on "slave morality."

[daj0264]

Lebron is the GOAT























































ring chasser

[longtime lurker]

Some people here don't get the point. Leaving his worthless front office is not why he is criticized. :oldlol:

And lebron23 reminded me..
hey.. at the time it happened.. almost everyone in the league thought it was a cheap move. That it was an easy way out, and ring chasing.

Pretty much all the legends - MJ, Magic, Bird all came out to say it. If anyone wants to see the quotes I can post them here too.

Like I said, there is just no way, no matter how you twist it and bend it, to say that it was not taking the easy way out and ring chasing. If you support it, fine, but you can't say it's not a shortcut.

This is so true. Even current NBA players were commenting and tweeting how it was cheap move. :oldlol: You'd think that if anyone could relate to Lebron's "plight" it would be current NBA players but noooope

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

they're were part of the 3 most successful NBA organizations ever?

Why do posters keep repeating this? That's not the point. It never was. Once again, NOBODY would have a problem w/ Lebron had he signed w/ a team that didn't already have 2 established superstars.

[NumberSix]

This is so true. Even current NBA players were commenting and tweeting how it was cheap move. :oldlol: You'd think that if anyone could relate to Lebron's "plight" it would be current NBA players but noooope
Look who you're agreeing with. Does that not lead you to at least consider reevaluating your position?

[longtime lurker]

Look who you're agreeing with. Does that not lead you to at least consider reevaluating your position?

I know I feel dirty agreeing with him but his point still stands. I'll admit it's a rarity for Ripthekik

[PJR]

Why do posters keep repeating this? That's not the point. It never was. Once again, NOBODY would have a problem w/ Lebron had he signed w/ a team that didn't already have 2 established superstars.



No one should have a problem with it anyhow. It's all special pleading, really.

What exactly is the gripe about? Why can't LeBron play with two established players? What's the issue with it?

Star caliber players like LeBron have played with, and won titles with other great players present on the team in the past. Teams as good as the current Heat, relative to the league, have existed before, and will continue to exist. So what's the issue? Sounds like you and a few others have issues with HOW they got there?

And I pose this question right back, how is that relevant?

[Goldrush25]

Why do posters keep repeating this? That's not the point. It never was. Once again, NOBODY would have a problem w/ Lebron had he signed w/ a team that didn't already have 2 established superstars.

I wasn't the one that brought up Jordan, Magic or Bird. They don't bear relevance to the conversation.

What would've been the point of leaving Cleveland if he were to just join another team full of role players? Signing to another team that didn't have a chance to be a legitimate contender is a lateral move at best.

It sounds almost as if you're saying that players are cool to go to a team that is already decent, but you can't team up too many good players together it's not fair for everyone else. So what is it, stars can only join a team with one (and not more than one) other star? Who made up these arbitrary criteria that define how a free agent should join another team? The whole thing seems contrived and silly to me.

[ripthekik]

No one should have a problem with it anyhow. It's all special pleading, really.

What exactly is the gripe about? Why can't LeBron play with two established players? What's the issue with it?

Star caliber players like LeBron have played with, and won titles with other great players present on the team in the past. Teams as good as the current Heat, relative to the league, have existed before, and will continue to exist. So what's the issue? Sounds like you and a few others have issues with HOW they got there?

And I pose this question right back, how is that relevant?
Because he's the goddamn best player in the NBA in his prime!
Do the best NBA players in their prime just go f it, I can't win, AND JOINS THE #2 ESTABLISHED TEAM??? Have some self-respect.

That's frickin ridiculous. Nobody said he couldn't have a nice team. And he had a lot of good options that summer.

[ripthekik]

Look who you're agreeing with. Does that not lead you to at least consider reevaluating your position?
Funny I'm the one making legit arguments all over this thread, and you have not posted ONE legit statement at all, dumbass.

Stick to trolling and making corny one-line sentences, nobody gives a damn what you think. Might be a good time to get that college degree even if you're 30.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It sounds almost as if you're saying that players are cool to go to a team that is already decent, but you can't team up too many good players together it's not fair for everyone else.


Why are you stupidly complicating this discussion? It isn't rocket science. Quit assuming things and listen up. :confusedshrug:

The fact of the matter is, Lebron teamed up w/ Wade and Bosh, who were considered top 10 players (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/418894-top-20-current-nba-players/page/12). THAT is unprecedented. THAT is the point.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Because he's the goddamn best player in the NBA in his prime!
Do the best NBA players in their prime just go f it, I can't win, AND JOINS THE #2 ESTABLISHED TEAM??? Have some self-respect.

That's frickin ridiculous. Nobody said he couldn't have a nice team. And he had a lot of good options that summer.

Don't get it twisted. I'm not some delusional hater. I recognize Lebron's greatness. I realize dude has been UNREAL this season.

It is what it is, tho. :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

Don't get it twisted. I'm not some delusional hater. I recognize Lebron's greatness. I realize dude has been UNREAL this season.

It is what it is, tho. :confusedshrug:
Yea, I have said multiple times he's the best player in the NBA right now. But the number 1 should have earned his spot by competing and beating others, and not jumping ship to number 3 player's team.. no?

Like Jordan going to Jazz with Stock and Malone if he didn't win? Shaq going to the spurs?

[rsoares28]

No one should have a problem with it anyhow. It's all special pleading, really.

What exactly is the gripe about? Why can't LeBron play with two established players? What's the issue with it?

Star caliber players like LeBron have played with, and won titles with other great players present on the team in the past. Teams as good as the current Heat, relative to the league, have existed before, and will continue to exist. So what's the issue? Sounds like you and a few others have issues with HOW they got there?

And I pose this question right back, how is that relevant?

Again don't compare what lebron, wade and bosh did to any other stacked team in history.... its not the same. Never been done before. They all conveniently signed 3 yrs deals with their current franchise at a time when that was unheard of....... then.. well the rest is history.

The second bolded phrase is the point.

You hate on the cavs ownership now but the funny thing is I remember the the bron fans on this forum losing their sh1t when the cavs got Jamison and Shaq....

[Lebron23]

Again don't compare what lebron, wade and bosh did to any other stacked team in history.... its not the same. Never been done before. They all conveniently signed 3 yrs deals with their current franchise at a time when that was unheard of....... then.. well the rest is history.

The second bolded phrase is the point.

You hate on the cavs ownership now but the funny thing is I remember the the bron fans on this forum losing their sh1t when the cavs got Jamison and Shaq....

Same with the Kobetards just like yourself after the Lakers acquired Dwight Howard, Steve Nash and Antwan Jamison in the off season.

Lakers Championship Cruise Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

At least Lebron won an NBA Championship with 2 NBA All Stars while Kobe failed to led the star studded Lakers. He still needed to play 48 minutes per game in the last few games of the regular season. And Kobe still led the league in Field goals attempts per game because he didn't trust his teammates.

LeBron, Wade and Bosh sacrifices their stats for the sake of winning an NBA title.

[PJR]

Again don't compare what lebron, wade and bosh did to any other stacked team in history.... its not the same. Never been done before. They all conveniently signed 3 yrs deals with their current franchise at a time when that was unheard of....... then.. well the rest is history.

The second bolded phrase is the point.


Just because other stars were gifted great teams in eras with only 24 franchises or whatever, and these guys had to exercise their RIGHT to be free agents in order to avoid having to tread in mediocrity in a watered down, 30 team field, doesn't mean their team is inherently any greater, or that they've done something wrong.

Again, how a team gets on the floor is completly irrelevent. It really doesn't matter at all. You and others just let emotion factor in where it has no business.

How a team came together, does not help it win.

[FLDFSU]

I wasn't the one that brought up Jordan, Magic or Bird. They don't bear relevance to the conversation.

What would've been the point of leaving Cleveland if he were to just join another team full of role players? Signing to another team that didn't have a chance to be a legitimate contender is a lateral move at best.

It sounds almost as if you're saying that players are cool to go to a team that is already decent, but you can't team up too many good players together it's not fair for everyone else. So what is it, stars can only join a team with one (and not more than one) other star? Who made up these arbitrary criteria that define how a free agent should join another team? The whole thing seems contrived and silly to me.

This is exactly the point I am making. Who gets to decide what is stacked and what is not? Because I believe that Kobe, Andrew, Odom, and Gasol is too stacked. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Rondo with Doc is too stacked as well.

If Lebron had gone to Chicago the same argument about his team being too talented could also be made.

I know a lot of people on here have amnesia but I remember when folks were saying that Lebron Cavaliers without him would win 55 games, and when Cleveland did acquire Jamison people were like "well damn how much help does Lebron need?" So even in Cleveland many thought Lebron team was to stacked.

Lebron went to the team that gave him the best opportunity to win-- admittedly-- however if he had not chosen the Heat Pat Riley would have insured Lebron would have never won a championship anytime soon because he would had Wade, Bosh and all Lebron's cap.

I am thinking the Heat would have gotten Howard or CP3 or Deron Williams.

Yeah, Lebron ain't winning against that team even on Chicago unless Rose played at an MVP level.

[longtime lurker]

Same with the Kobetards just like yourself after the Lakers acquired Dwight Howard, Steve Nash and Antwan Jamison in the off season.

Lakers Championship Cruise Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

At least Lebron won an NBA Championship with 2 NBA All Stars while Kobe failed to led the star studded Lakers. He still needed to play 48 minutes per game in the last few games of the regular season. And Kobe still led the league in Field goals attempts per game because he didn't trust his teammates.

LeBron, Wade and Bosh sacrifices their stats for the sake of winning an NBA title.

Typical Lebronstan. Bring up Kobe to detract attention away from Lebron and the Heat. Weren't you a Cavs fan in 2010? What happened? :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

At least Lebron won an NBA Championship with 2 NBA All Stars

Michael Jordan: 1 All-Star per 6 championship runs
Kobe Bryant : 1 All-Star per 5 championship runs
LeBron James: 2 All-Stars during 1 championship run


Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant Playoffs (1991-1993)

[Ne 1]

Typical Lebronstan. Bring up Kobe to detract attention away from Lebron and the Heat. Weren't you a Cavs fan in 2010? What happened? :oldlol:



Cavs fans are the coolest. I am still going to support the team even though my favorite NBA player signed on another NBA Team.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4573564&postcount=17



LeBron is gonna win an NBA Championship someday. I am still a Cavaliers fan even if LeBron sign with the Bulls, Knicks, or Nets.
http://207.58.151.151/forum/showpost.php?p=4368410&postcount=4


I do not think he will leave Cleveland because he was born and raise in Akron, and giving this team a championship is one of his main goal after he was selected as the first overall pick in the 2003 NBA Draft.


But if ever LBJ change his mind by signing with a Big Market team in the 2010 Season.

I am still supporting the Cleveland Cavaliers because this is my favorite team since 2002, when they drafted Dajuan Wagner as the 6th overall pick in the NBA Draft.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1571505&postcount=13

[ripthekik]

This is exactly the point I am making. Who gets to decide what is stacked and what is not? Because I believe that Kobe, Andrew, Odom, and Gasol is too stacked. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and Rondo with Doc is too stacked as well.
How to decide? How about when the Top 1 player in the league joins a top 3 and also has another top 5 PF? All in their prime?

It's pretty clear these 3 in their prime is much more stacked than even the celtics, who were all in their late thirties, none in their prime.

[Goldrush25]

How to decide? How about when the Top 1 player in the league joins a top 3 and also has another top 5 PF? All in their prime?

It's pretty clear these 3 in their prime is much more stacked than even the celtics, who were all in their late thirties, none in their prime.

Top 3 this? Top 5 that? That is all fanspeak. Players don't sit around ranking each other and decide who they want to play with based on that.

[ripthekik]

Top 3 this? Top 5 that? That is all fanspeak. Players don't sit around ranking each other and decide who they want to play with based on that.
Please. Everyone knew Lebron was the best. Wade was top 3.
Those numbers weren't decided by me. Ask anyone in the forum and they'll tell you the same.

That's how ridiculous it is. Best player in the whole nba goes ringchasing and jumps into another top 3 player's team.

[NBAller]

lol, it's really not that serious. i'd understand if they were unbeatable and the next 10 years were theirs, but that's not even close to being the case.... they're beatable.

[PJR]

Top 3 this? Top 5 that? That is all fanspeak. Players don't sit around ranking each other and decide who they want to play with based on that.

TRUTH.:oldlol:

[Goldrush25]

Please. Everyone knew Lebron was the best. Wade was top 3.
Those numbers weren't decided by me. Ask anyone in the forum and they'll tell you the same.

That's how ridiculous it is. Best player in the whole nba goes ringchasing and jumps into another top 3 player's team.

Call it what you will. Top 3 player is subjective. There are any number of players that were playing up to Wade's level at that time. I don't think players sit around and rank each other. That's fanspeak.

I just don't subscribe to assigning a derogatory status to a goal that should be the goal of every player. There are star players every year that would rather choose max money over putting themselves in the best possible position to win. I respect the guys more who "ring chase" than the ones that choose to line their pockets instead, but it seems to be the other way around with you.

It seems to me that you're saying that players can want to win, but they shouldn't go to any and all measures to do it. Like you're saying it's the free agent's responsibility to preserve the competitive balance of the league by not going to a stacked team. Go to a less "stacked" team and earn it the right way, right?

[LikeABosh]

Please. Everyone knew Lebron was the best. Wade was top 3.
Those numbers weren't decided by me. Ask anyone in the forum and they'll tell you the same.

That's how ridiculous it is. Best player in the whole nba goes ringchasing and jumps into another top 3 player's team.
I'm sorry your team tried to "ring chase" and failed

[uoykcuf]

How to decide? How about when the Top 1 player in the league joins a top 3 and also has another top 5 PF? All in their prime?

It's pretty clear these 3 in their prime is much more stacked than even the celtics, who were all in their late thirties, none in their prime.

I know you are what others refer to as a "troll" but just out of curiosity, what are your aspirations in life? Hah, every few times I've browsed through here you are in thread after thread trying to talk yourself out of accepting reality.

I happen to like and respect both Kobe and LeBron, but why on Earth do you spend so much of your time (time=money) bashing a potential top 3 GOAT player (if he stays healthy and continues playing like he has)? Are you just a fan of Kobe and seeing this man overcome all odds and live up to the hype really bothers you?

Fact is, when LeBron joined the Heat they had been knocked out in the first round of the playoffs in 5 games to Boston. Is it because LeBron joined them after Bosh? Would you have to go back to the drawing board and fix your nitpicking if LeBron was the one to announce it first?

Anyways, the team was not stacked, as it was essentially THEM...and 2 players that would have to play alongside them. They had many holes in the roster, most notably at C, but also PG (Chalmers has greatly improved since 2010). With the injuries they suffered last playoffs and the amount of pressure that was built upon LeBron...he willed his team to the Title, no other way around it.

Even so, Wade is NOT in his prime, nor was he when this team was formed. He hasn't been on the same level since he won his FMVP, albeit for stretches here and there. Bosh is an excellent player who is a great stretch 4...but he's never been a top 15 player, ever. Between 15-20 is much more realistic. So for instance, the Bulls were just as "stacked" as this current Heat roster, if not more. MJ>LJ, Pip>(current)DWade, Rodman>or=Bosh. Plus they had one of the best coaches to ever do it.

People on here (who have an agenda) seem to always overrate Wade and Bosh when attacking LeBron/Heat, but underrate them in every other scenario. A few threads up most folks are stating they'd rather have Rodman on their team. Another yet, discussing Wade's sub-par performances in the playoffs thus far (especially scoring wise, although he's making solid contributions in others aspects).

Lastly, feel free to keep criticizing "how" the team was formed since obviously that is where you believe you have leverage. Eh, even I feel a little of what you probably are too--like something is missing/an emptiness since the Mamba's been out. But if I could offer you a piece of friendly advice--it's okay to cut back on the hate, it might be hard at first, but it's okay to be a fan of(or at least respect) both of their games :cheers:

[rsoares28]

Same with the Kobetards just like yourself after the Lakers acquired Dwight Howard, Steve Nash and Antwan Jamison in the off season.

Lakers Championship Cruise Babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

At least Lebron won an NBA Championship with 2 NBA All Stars while Kobe failed to led the star studded Lakers. He still needed to play 48 minutes per game in the last few games of the regular season. And Kobe still led the league in Field goals attempts per game because he didn't trust his teammates.

LeBron, Wade and Bosh sacrifices their stats for the sake of winning an NBA title.


Before I dive into the rest of the above I just wanted to highlight this part.. "At least Lebron won an NBA Championship with 2 NBA All Stars" Are you kidding?

Please go ahead and find a post by me in that LA Champ Cruise thread.

Regardless, what happened to the lakers this year is due to a multitude of reasons.. you can point to 50 other things before naming kobe as a fault and any bipartisan NBA fan will be able to see that.

Really.. so they simultaneously but.... individually scarified in 2007 to sign shorter deals that magically were similar in nature. Then these multi-millionaires....separately and individually..... again sacrificed all while deciding to go to Miami...(the arm pit of America) and put their aspirations for greatness ahead of the all mighty dollar.

I'm starting to see your point.


I dont know why this is a fight... why can't the lebron side admit that Lebron did something unprecedented and took.. not the easy way, because you still have to actually win, but the easiER way.... and yes (as some posters have stated above) who wouldnt want an easier path to greatness.. however in the sports world (outside of the lebron bubble) ppl kinda saw that as cheating the system, the legends, the history of the game and the fans (outside of miami of course)

[FLDFSU]

How to decide? How about when the Top 1 player in the league joins a top 3 and also has another top 5 PF? All in their prime?

It's pretty clear these 3 in their prime is much more stacked than even the celtics, who were all in their late thirties, none in their prime.


I have a simple question for you. Lets say Miami had Wade and Bosh...and then the next year gotten either...

CP3, D. WILL,or Howard (without Lebron).

Would that be fair to Lebron?

[dh144498]

Before I dive into the rest of the above I just wanted to highlight this part.. "At least Lebron won an NBA Championship with 2 NBA All Stars" Are you kidding?

Please go ahead and find a post by me in that LA Champ Cruise thread.

Regardless, what happened to the lakers this year is due to a multitude of reasons.. you can point to 50 other things before naming kobe as a fault and any bipartisan NBA fan will be able to see that.

Really.. so they simultaneously but.... individually scarified in 2007 to sign shorter deals that magically were similar in nature. Then these multi-millionaires....separately and individually..... again sacrificed all while deciding to go to Miami...(the arm pit of America) and put their aspirations for greatness ahead of the all mighty dollar.

I'm starting to see your point.


I dont know why this is a fight... why can't the lebron side admit that Lebron did something unprecedented and took.. not the easy way, because you still have to actually win, but the easiER way.... and yes (as some posters have stated above) who wouldnt want an easier path to greatness.. however in the sports world (outside of the lebron bubble) ppl kinda saw that as cheating the system, the legends, the history of the game and the fans (outside of miami of course)


he's just mad Cavs didn't make the playoffs.

[Mr. Jabbar]

"Ring chasing is not bad as long as you are part of it"


- Miami Heat

[dh144498]

"Ring chasing is not bad as long as you are part of it"


- Miami Heat

:roll:

[FLDFSU]

"Ring chasing is not bad as long as you are part of it"


- Miami Heat

Could you answer this too:

Lets say Miami had Wade and Bosh...and then the next year gotten either...

CP3, D. WILL,or Howard (without Lebron).

Would that be fair to Lebron?

[Goldrush25]

I'm starting to see your point.


I dont know why this is a fight... why can't the lebron side admit that Lebron did something unprecedented and took.. not the easy way, because you still have to actually win, but the easiER way.... and yes (as some posters have stated above) who wouldnt want an easier path to greatness.. however in the sports world (outside of the lebron bubble) ppl kinda saw that as cheating the system, the legends, the history of the game and the fans (outside of miami of course)

I'm not on any "side," well, except the side of common sense. If you have a goal, why would you not maximize your chances for success? If I were a free agent I'd look for the best opportunity to acheive my goal. I wouldn't intentionally handicap my chances just to appease some fans.

[Rose'sACL]

I'm not on any "side," well, except the side of common sense. If you have a goal, why would you not maximize your chances for success? If I were a free agent I'd look for the best opportunity to acheive my goal. I wouldn't intentionally handicap my chances just to appease some fans.
i think lebron wanted wade and bosh to come to cleveland but they probably refused to live in cleveland. on top of that riley probably convinced him that he would keep putting great team around him till he plays for miami.

[Rake2204]

I'm not on any "side," well, except the side of common sense. If you have a goal, why would you not maximize your chances for success? If I were a free agent I'd look for the best opportunity to acheive my goal. I wouldn't intentionally handicap my chances just to appease some fans.LeBron did what he was allowed to do by signing with Miami. It's not as if he broke rules or laws. That said, I think attaining a goal at all costs can be complicated when discussing team sport or competition with free agency outlets.

By that I mean, what we're dealing with here is a sport, and sports are generally based upon the idea of competition. Like, that's one of the primary focuses of it all - competing for wins and losses as a means of deciding who's best. This differs from, say, setting a goal to be the best teacher ever. Because in that endeavor, the primary focus is becoming a good teacher, not battling and defeating all other teachers.

Point is, I think a lot of non-LeBron haters (and non-Kobe lovers) had a problem with LeBron's move because it became relatively clear that NBA players were making enough money that no matter what, if they wanted, they'd have the option of taking "pay cuts" (i.e. getting paid $14 million per year instead of $15 million) in exchange for stacking their team as they pleased and challenging the whole point of sports in the first place.

Had the Heat experiment failed, I think a lot of us would have taken comfort in the idea that it's not that easy to bypass the primary premise of sports (like when the Yankees buy the market but cannot always win due to the many intricacies required for victory in baseball). However, it seems to have become clear that in this case, if millionaire NBA stars are truly willing, thwarting the idea of sport is a little easier than we ever imagined.

As I've said and acknowledged, super teams have come together throughout history through one means or another. But no one's ever made it seem so easy and accessible. I think the feeling of many is the best player in the game decided to do whatever he could to opt out of competition simply in the name of making it as easy as possible. And in sports, where the idea of competition is the whole point, it struck a lot of us in a funny manner.