37 yr Old Tim Duncan is better than a Prime Dwight Howard

[westsideozzie]

Proof is in the pudding. Once is an elite athlete, the other is an elite, efficient basketball player. Get the brooms out, LA can't win if Howard can't outplay Tim.

[jzek]

Dwight just isn't right in the head. And let's not forget he's still hurt from multiple injuries (back, shoulders, etc.). Once he gets those two sorted out, he'll be making all the ohter centers his b*tch again (well, except Perk because we all know he's the "Dwight Stopper").

[Bandito]

Timmy is just a beast. Is not Dwight's fault.

[Chrono90]

Think you have a good case

[rmt]

There's a reason that old guys like Duncan and Andre Miller are still effective - they have basic, fundamental skills. The young guys (especially big men) these days run fast, jump high and are crazy athletic. Since they can get by with being fast, stronger and more athletic than their peers when they were growing up, they don't develop basketball skills. The Europeans, otoh, who aren't as athletic HAVE to develop shooting skills to survive.

When I watch these big men like Howard and McGee, it's sad. Even a Chandler or ____ (insert big man) are capable of few offensive moves except dunks. The exceptions are foreigners (Gasols, TD [not US born], Bogut and Bynum - taught by KAJ). Couple this with the rules slanting toward the perimeter player and you have the demise of the traditional post big man.

LAL won't last long if DH is only matching the output of Duncan.

Laker fans are damned if he re-signs (good luck with him as a franchise player) and damned if he doesn't. Personally, I'd have taken my chances with Bynum - at least he knows what he's doing in the post (of course, couldn't foresee the injury).

[TMT]

Timmy is clearly the best big in this series.

[TAZORAC]

Proof is in the pudding. Once is an elite athlete, the other is an elite, efficient basketball player. Get the brooms out, LA can't win if Howard can't outplay Tim.

Howard is WASHED UP, and not the same Howard from the Magic. They are about equal, Howard was the 2nd most dominate player in the NBA prior to this season.

[jzek]

Howard is WASHED UP, and not the same Howard from the Magic. They are about equal, Howard was the 2nd most dominate player in the NBA prior to this season.

Bill Simmons made a great comparison of D12 and Larry Johnson in an article. Everyone expected LJ to be pretty much just the same after the back injury but we all know how that turned out.

[Bigsmoke]

Dwight is playing hurt

[STATUTORY]

Dwight is playing hurt
not hurt. that's the new normal. he's damaged goods.

[andremiller07]

Dwight is playing hurt

Never looks hurt on wide open dunks/spoon feeds but always looks hurt when he actually has to make a move requiring any IQ/skill.

[SCdac]

To be fair, Duncan is one of the best big men to ever play the game of basketball, and Dwight has been really overrated through out the years going up against a somewhat weak generation of bigs.

Keep hearing the "hurt" argument, but none of these things have to do with the surgery Dwight had a year ago:

Horrible FT shooter
No shooting range
Turnover Prone
Foul Prone
Average passer at best
Low BB IQ / Lack of Fundamentals

[Blue&Orange]

weak era.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Duncan has been better this season, although Dwight is playing well lately, but this isn't Howard in prime form. I have no idea if he'll ever return to his prime, regardless, it's clear Dwight was a much better player than he's been this season a year ago, much less 2 years ago.

[Djahjaga]

Dwight is playing hurt

This.


not hurt. that's the new normal. he's damaged goods.

You can't be sure of that. Neither can I. It's certainly not good news that Dwight injured his back, but he's undeniably gotten better as the season has gone on. Not enough evidence to support he'll never recover.


To be fair, Duncan is one of the best big men to ever play the game of basketball, and Dwight has been really overrated through out the years going up against a somewhat weak generation of bigs.

Keep hearing the "hurt" argument, but none of these things have to do with the surgery Dwight had a year ago:

Horrible FT shooter
No shooting range

He'll always have limited range, but he's not bad around the basket. Has a nice running hook (though no real jump hook, which is much simpler and probably as effective) and can face up into a spin/drop step. All of these things rely on his quickness and lateral and vertical explosion, which are things he's been missing for most of the season before the injury.

Turnover Prone

His role did change a bit this year, as did the manner in which he got the ball (not the same thing as where he got the ball). He's still turnover prone, but it's never been debilitating. I expect this to go down to a manageable level as he gets more comfortable in his body and with the team.

Foul Prone

This is hugely affected by injury. He can't contest quite as well as he could in Orlando, although this is clearly getting better. He wasn't able to get as high on his jumping earlier in the season and so he couldn't extend directly upward when contesting shots. To make up for it he had to lean farther forward, which is a good way to pick up a foul. Same with block attempts.

Average passer at best

Fact.

Low BB IQ / Lack of Fundamentals

As with Javal McGee (though of course not to the same extent), too much is made of Dwight's supposedly low bball IQ. Yeah, he's a clown and he's struggled with being serious most of his career, but he's got a very solid bball IQ on the defensive end. What makes him otherworldly (when healthy) is his athleticism, but he always knows where to stand, who to cover for, and how to direct the help D. Not on a Garnett level, of course (I tend to think Garnett is one of the best handful of guys ever to organize a team defense), but very good.

[MARLO]

Dwight has 3 offensive weapons.

DUNK
BABY HOOK

and....

ANOTHER DUNK!


When was the last time you saw him take a mid-range jumper?

Big man who can spread the floor, knocking down jumpers > Big man who camps in the paint.

The exception to this of course being prime Shaq, but in today's guard-friendly NBA even he would have limitations..

[BlackVVaves]

37 yr Old Tim Duncan is better than a recovering from back surgery Dwight Howard.

Fixed. If Dwight I plays like this next year, wherever he lands, then more should be made of his decline in production and impact.

His inconsistency right now should be attributed to his conditioning, though if you're referring to his offensive output, I think that's just Dwight Howard for you.

[selrahc]

Dont know why we traded Bynum to get this kid.

Post moves:
Bynum >>>>> Howard

Defense:
Bynum = Howard

Attitude:
Bynum = Howard

[selrahc]

Fixed. If Dwight I plays like this next year, wherever he lands, then more should be made of his decline in production and impact.

His inconsistency right now should be attributed to his conditioning, though if you're referring to his offensive output, I think that's just Dwight Howard for you.

Recovering from back surgery :roll:

Its been over a year he is not recovering anymore

[Rake2204]

There's a reason that old guys like Duncan and Andre Miller are still effective - they have basic, fundamental skills. The young guys (especially big men) these days run fast, jump high and are crazy athletic. Since they can get by with being fast, stronger and more athletic than their peers when they were growing up, they don't develop basketball skills. The Europeans, otoh, who aren't as athletic HAVE to develop shooting skills to survive.I think there's a ton to be said for basketball fundamentals. And not to sound cliche, but I do believe they tend to get overlooked as a primary means of working toward success. I think this is the case because it's been proven that athleticism - speed, jumping, juking, etc. - can be very effective as well if it's an elite level. Not to mention, succeeding via athleticism can be a lot more fun to people than doing the same through fundamentals.

Anyhow, point being, as you said, I think a player extremely rich in fundamentals can compete favorably against those rich in athleticism, which is partly why I envision old time NBA players fitting in a lot better on the present day basketball court than many would like to imagine.

As it stands, a lot of players don't focus on all the fundamentals until they're required to do so (aging, loss of a step, losing height on vert). I think that's why organized 35 and over leagues always seem to have so many people back cutting and running pick & rolls to perfection. I don't think those players were always like that - they just adapted.

In Duncan and Miller's case, being gentlemen who stressed fundamentals from the start, they didn't experience as severe of a transitional period as many other players do.

[GOBB]

I hear guys dont get Dwight the ball but how? How does Dwight finish games playing 41 minutes and only putting up 12 shots? He's a classic case of you cant read boxscores. I have no idea why he cant avg 18 shots per game especially playoffs.


Dwight has 3 offensive weapons.

DUNK
BABY HOOK

and....

ANOTHER DUNK!

When was the last time you saw him take a mid-range jumper?

Big man who can spread the floor, knocking down jumpers > Big man who camps in the paint.

The exception to this of course being prime Shaq, but in today's guard-friendly NBA even he would have limitations..

Prime Shaq would not have limitations today. Shaq did exactly what you described and beasted. Why cant Dwight?

[Crown&Coke]

Dwight uses his arms to get post position = a bunch of offensive fouls.

The greats use their hips, legs and buttocks to get post position. If Dwight would learn to use his lower body to create leverage it would help him out a bunch.

Big men today are not taught proper fundamentals and/or learn proper fundaments. they are taught behind the back passes and lob dunks

[chosen_wun]

Man ...without the crazy athleticism, Howard is just a rich man's Bismack Biyombo.

[BlackVVaves]

Recovering from back surgery :roll:

Its been over a year he is not recovering anymore

Yes, he is. There's a clear discrepancy in consistency between this year's Dwight, and 2010-2012 (pre-injury) Dwight.

[Big#50]

Howard has been playing dirty as hell. Elbows all over The Spurs players. Duncan has been getting boxed out with elbows, forearm shoves for two straight games. Howard is not hurt. He just sucks. He doesn't look hurt when he is rejecting shots and dunking alley oops. He just sucks. Plain and simple.He isnt even on Kevin Willis level. Dude sucks. Duncan is just way better.

[BlackVVaves]

Dwight uses his arms to get post position = a bunch of offensive fouls.

The greats use their hips, legs and buttocks to get post position. If Dwight would learn to use his lower body to create leverage it would help him out a bunch.

Big men today are not taught proper fundamentals and/or learn proper fundaments. they are taught behind the back passes and lob dunks

I was just having this discussion with a friend last week. Dwight has some horrible fundamentals, and I believe it stems from him not ever truly playing like a stereotypical big (as has been the case with most American big men in the last 10 years.

If you watch Dwight in the post, he does something inexpicable. Once he makes his move in the post, he collects the ball (like guards are taught to do, not bigs) in his lower chest/stomach, and proceeds to the basket. This allows players to strip him very easily without having a foul called, thus helping to explain Howard's high turnover rates over the last few seasons.

In contrast, more traditional bigs...like Bynum, for instance...learned to always keep the ball high (at our above his shoulders, like bigs are taught to do) to prevent easy strips and allow himself the opportunity to finish plays with contact, resulting in more And 1 opportunities.

Watch Dwight operate in the post, and then watch Duncan operate in the post, with this in mind. You'll notice Dwight does that alot with the basketball, while Duncan almost never brings the ball that low.

I don't know who taught Dwight his fundamentals, but man they are horrible for a big.

[mentallooser]

Howard isn 't playing prime right now, even if he was you're comparing an excellent defensive center with crazy athleticism with the GOAT PF(debated by some by says something) and an ATG level C. People act like Duncan style players should be garbage as they get older.

[BlackVVaves]

Howard has been playing dirty as hell. Elbows all over The Spurs players. Duncan has been getting boxed out with elbows, forearm shoves for two straight games. Howard is not hurt. He just sucks. He doesn't look hurt when he is rejecting shots and dunking alley oops. He just sucks. Plain and simple.He isnt even on Kevin Willis level. Dude sucks. Duncan is just way better.

It's not that he's hurt. But, he is less explosive, which is what made him such a dynamic anchor on defense in the past.

Also, we are comparing him to one of the 10 Best Players to ever lace them up in the NBA. Old or not, there is a reason why players like Duncan, Kobe, Kareem ect. can continue to produce in elite fashion well into their 30s. They are among the NBA's short list of GOAT players.

Dwight, thusfar, is not.

[Big#50]

It's not that he's hurt. But, he is less explosive, which is what made him such a dynamic anchor on defense in the past.
Nah. I just think he isn't trying. Don't think he likes playing for The Lakers. I don't think he liked playing with Kobe.

[stephanieg]

Yep, and a near retirement Shaq was better than prime Bosh. This generation of bigs is embarrassingly bad.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Tim Duncan is the greatest player since MJ retired.

[PickernRoller]

All I read here is that Dwight is a scrub offensively...the more you know. :lol :lol :lol :roll:

[SnakePlissken]

I always used to consider Tim Duncan "boring". No more. I see him as the greatest power forward of all time now.

[TheBigVeto]

Timmy is just a beast. Is not Dwight's fault.

This.
All hail GOAT PF.

[K.Koscik]

Interesting things in this thread...

Some quick facts:

-Duncan is 10-8 all time against Dwight

-Stats look like 19/13/1 with 2.2 blocks on 57% for Dwight and 20/10.5/3 with 2 blocks on 51% for Timmy D, All time. This includes Dwight's rookie year, when Duncan was in his prime

Post isn't meant to insinuate that Dwight is better than Duncan. He's not. But people in this thread are acting like Duncan has dominated Howard somehow through their careers. He hasn't.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=howardw01

[wakencdukest]

Duncan's playing some great ball lately. I got him as the greatest power forward ever.

[AintNoSunshine]

Well Duncan's the best PF to ever play. Extremely high bball IQ, extremely skilled, has very good size in the post. His game doesn't regress as much as most of the other players.

How about howard, no skill, average bball iq, only has the athleticism and not much else

[rmt]

Interesting things in this thread...

Some quick facts:

-Duncan is 10-8 all time against Dwight

-Stats look like 19/13/1 with 2.2 blocks on 57% for Dwight and 20/10.5/3 with 2 blocks on 51% for Timmy D, All time. This includes Dwight's rookie year, when Duncan was in his prime

Post isn't meant to insinuate that Dwight is better than Duncan. He's not. But people in this thread are acting like Duncan has dominated Howard somehow through their careers. He hasn't.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=howardw01

Highlighting Dwight's rookie year, when Duncan was in his prime, should surely give some allowance for decline in Duncan's game due to age. He is 37 years old after all.

It's not a matter of head-to-head dominance or matchup. It's the difference in skill level and fundamentals.

[Mrofir]

I remember when young amare went up against prime duncan in the 2005 playoffs. That battle is worth rewatching again and again. Too bad it only lasted 5 playoff games before amare needed microfracture surgery.

[obonpaxis]

Interesting things in this thread...

Some quick facts:

-Duncan is 10-8 all time against Dwight

-Stats look like 19/13/1 with 2.2 blocks on 57% for Dwight and 20/10.5/3 with 2 blocks on 51% for Timmy D, All time. This includes Dwight's rookie year, when Duncan was in his prime

Post isn't meant to insinuate that Dwight is better than Duncan. He's not. But people in this thread are acting like Duncan has dominated Howard somehow through their careers. He hasn't.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=howardw01

Looking at that link, this is what's blowing my mind: Duncan played his first game against Dwight Howard at exactly 28yrs - 234 days old. At tomorrow's tip-off, Dwight Howard will be 27yrs - 139 days old. So yeah - Howard right now is a year (and change) younger than Duncan was when they first went head-to-head almost a decade ago.

Duncan peaked statistically two seasons before Dwight even entered the league, but head-to-head they are pretty much even.

[SCdac]

Interesting things in this thread...

Some quick facts:

-Duncan is 10-8 all time against Dwight

-Stats look like 19/13/1 with 2.2 blocks on 57% for Dwight and 20/10.5/3 with 2 blocks on 51% for Timmy D, All time. This includes Dwight's rookie year, when Duncan was in his prime

Post isn't meant to insinuate that Dwight is better than Duncan. He's not. But people in this thread are acting like Duncan has dominated Howard somehow through their careers. He hasn't.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=howardw01

Dwight usually brings his A-game when he comes to San Antonio, and has had some "big" games (including a game winning alley-oop), but you can say the exact same thing about the Suns with Amare Stoudemire, who is 12-13 against Duncan, with them also putting up comparable statistics... and probably other good players on good teams.

But really, Head-to-head stats hardly illustrate the vast differences between Duncan and Howard in a game that is not played and determined on paper. Especially a fundamentally sound Tim Duncan with multiple championships worth of experience under his belt (even by 2004).

Besides, basketball is a team game (who is the better "team player" of the two?), yet, it's safe to say Duncan's teams have been way better off than Howard's. In the grand scheme of things, Duncan has been more dominant than Howard regardless of their H2H matchup. More MVP's. More individual talent. More wins. More playoff success (when getting there). More of a mark on the game.

[K.Koscik]

Looking at that link, this is what's blowing my mind: Duncan played his first game against Dwight Howard at exactly 28yrs - 234 days old. At tomorrow's tip-off, Dwight Howard will be 27yrs - 139 days old. So yeah - Howard right now is a year (and change) younger than Duncan was when they first went head-to-head almost a decade ago.

Duncan peaked statistically two seasons before Dwight even entered the league, but head-to-head they are pretty much even.

That is interesting. I think Duncan had kind of a plateau prime where he was just very good and dominant over a long period of time, I don't think that his peak statistics tell the entire story. Duncan is a model teammate as well, individually in 2007 he was as good as ever and yet Tony Parker won the FMVP (who I feel is underrated in his own right anyways)



But really, Head-to-head stats hardly illustrate the vast differences between Duncan and Howard in a game that is not played and determined on paper. Especially a fundamentally sound Tim Duncan with multiple championships worth of experience under his belt (even by 2004).

Besides, basketball is a team game (who is the better "team player" of the two?), yet, it's safe to say Duncan's teams have been way better off than Howard's. In the grand scheme of things, Duncan has been more dominant than Howard regardless of their H2H matchup. More MVP's. More individual talent. More wins. More playoff success (when getting there). More of a mark on the game.
Howard's best years may be behind him at this point, and the point I just wanted to make in my original post was that during his prime, which is what the OP said, Dwight was a pretty dang good player. His teams were winners and even went to the finals along the way.

I don't think that today's Tim Duncan is better than a pre back injury Dwight but TD is one of the best big men to ever lace em up and yes I do acknowledge that

[LakersForlife]

Never looks hurt on wide open dunks/spoon feeds but always looks hurt when he actually has to make a move requiring any IQ/skill.
THIS

[Greg Oden 50]

Dwight just isn't right in the head. And let's not forget he's still hurt from multiple injuries (back, shoulders, etc.). Once he gets those two sorted out, he'll be making all the ohter centers his b*tch again (well, except Perk because we all know he's the "Dwight Stopper").

dwight isn't even half as gd as alonzo ever been :banana:

[Anaximandro1]

Right now,Howard is better but Duncan is extremely smart.

Duncan's job is to make life tough for Howard.Parker is the man who runs the show.


That is interesting. I think Duncan had kind of a plateau prime where he was just very good and dominant over a long period of time, I don't think that his peak statistics tell the entire story.

It depends on the competition.


Regular season (1998 - 2007)

Duncan played 746 games (Spurs won 531 games - 71.2%)

Duncan 21.8 pt,11.9 rb,3.2 as,2.5 blk FG 50.9% (Spurs scored 95.3 ppg)

First Round (1998 - 2007)

Duncan played 42 games (Spurs won 32 games - 76.2%)

Duncan 20.9 pt,11.4 rb,3.9 as,2.9 blk FG 51.5% (Spurs scored 94.9 ppg)



Playoff Stats (Excluding First Round) (1998-2007)

Duncan played 96 games (Spurs won 59 games - 61.5%)

Duncan 25.0 pt/13.0 rb/3.4 as/2.7 blk FG (50.5%) (Spurs scored 93.2)


1998 21.8/8.4/1.2/1.6 (Games 5) / Spurs scored 84.8 ppg

1999 24.6/11.7/2.7/2.5 (Games 13) / Spurs scored 88.9 ppg

2001 25.2/15.1/3.9/3.0 (Games 9) / Spurs scored 92.9 ppg

2002 29.0/17.2/4.6/3.2 (Games 5) / Spurs 85.8 ppg

2003 26.7/15.2/5.3/3.2 (Games 18) / Spurs 96.2 ppg

2004 20.7/12.2/3.3/1.7 (Games 6) / Spurs 83.8 ppg

2005 24.0/12.8/2.6/2.2 (Games 18) / Spurs 95.9 ppg

2006 32.3/11.7/3.7/2.6 (Games 7) / Spurs 99.9 ppg

2007 22.9/11.7/2.5/3.2 (Games 15) / Spurs 96.1 ppg

[Artillery]

Dwight's the most overrated big in recent memory. The only thing he's ever been exceptional at is rebounding.

:oldlol: carried by Turkoglu and Lewis in the Finals as he averaged 15 ppg

[305Baller]

Duncan is a ball player.