Has Kobe ever led a team farther than Gasol without a HOF teammate?

[TonyMontana]

We'll go with their best years without a hall of fame teammate which ironically enough was 05-06 for both of them(Gasol emerged as an all-star and Kobe had his 35 PPG season and 81 point game). None of them had any hall of famers on their team during these stints. Who led their team to more wins?

Pau Gasol without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 49-33(.598) L Round 1

Kobe Bryant without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 45-37(.548) L Round 1

Just for good measure I'll throw in LeBron since Kobe fans are obsessed with him.

LeBron James without a hall of fame teammate
06-07: 50-32(.601) L Finals
08-09: 66-16( .805) L ECF

So looks like according to the logic of needing as little talent as possible as teammates LeBron > Gasol > Kobe. Without having another hall of famer on the team Kobe cant win more than 45 games or a series.

[LongLiveTheKing]

We'll go with their best years without a hall of fame teammate which ironically enough was 05-06 for both of them(Gasol emerged as an all-star and Kobe had his 35 PPG season and 81 point game). None of them had any hall of famers on their team during these stints. Who led their team to more wins?

Pau Gasol without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 49-33(.598) L Round 1

Kobe Bryant without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 45-37(.548) L Round 1

Just for good measure I'll throw in LeBron since Kobe fans are obsessed with him.

LeBron James without a hall of fame teammate
06-07: 50-32(.601) L Finals
08-09: 66-16( .805) L ECF

So looks like according to the logic of needing as little talent as possible as teammates LeBron > Gasol > Kobe. Without having another hall of famer on the team Kobe cant win more than 45 games or a series.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[AintNoSunshine]

You guys need to stop doing them kobe stans like that, that's too much bloody facts and reality for them. :(

[willds09]

in 06 kobe lost against tha damn red hot suns in tha 1st round, and in 07 lebron had to play against horrible east teams and an old and done pistons team, kobe still better

[Trollsmasher]

Another quality post by Tony:applause: :applause:

Future-repped

[willds09]

class of apr 2013 are a bunch of dumb motherphuckers truthfully:facepalm

[Droid101]

Why isn't this idiotic Apr 2013 in the red yet? He's garbage, 100%

[willds09]

so i guess that means iverson iz better than lebron right?? since he won at least one game in 2001 finals with a horrible team and harder path to tha finals than lebron and tha swept cavs in tha 2007 finals right?? or maybe billups is better than all cuz he led tha 2004 pistons to a title?? get tha phuck out here with your retarded analogies:facepalm

[Batzman]

It's called the Western Conference.

[Rose'sACL]

so i guess that means iverson iz better than lebron right?? since he won at least one game in 2001 finals with a horrible team and harder path to tha finals than lebron and tha swept cavs in tha 2007 finals right?? or maybe billups is better than all cuz he led tha 2004 pistons to a title?? get tha phuck out here with your retarded analogies:facepalm
get the **** out of here with your "phuck". Class of 2013 knows how to form a sentence that makes sense.

[willds09]

get the **** out of here with your "phuck". Class of 2013 knows how to form a sentence that makes sense.
thats your biggest comeback? relly??:lol

[TonyMontana]

so i guess that means iverson iz better than lebron right?? since he won at least one game in 2001 finals with a horrible team and harder path to tha finals than lebron and tha swept cavs in tha 2007 finals right?? or maybe billups is better than all cuz he led tha 2004 pistons to a title?? get tha phuck out here with your retarded analogies:facepalm

Lol @ this ****ing idiot calling anything retarded.

A guy that substitutes "tha" for "the".

[willds09]

Lol @ this ****ing idiot calling anything retarded.

A guy that substitute "tha" for "the".
its called style stupid:lol

[TonyMontana]

its called style stupid:lol

I thought it was called high school dropout.

[Batzman]

I thought it was called high school dropout.
http://pngfaces.com/images/joomgallery/details/by_genre_10/sports_13/nba_15/nba-montayellis-omg_20120317_1718835885.pnghttp://pngfaces.com/images/joomgallery/details/by_genre_10/sports_13/nba_15/nba-allen_iverson-omg_20120321_2097951860.png




:lebronamazed:

[uoykcuf]

I thought it was called high school dropout.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

09 and 10


is OP on crack?




2 third team all nba's and 4 allstar reserve spots is not a hall of famer

[TonyMontana]

09 and 10


is OP on crack?




2 third team all nba's and 4 allstar reserve spots is not a hall of famer

Pau Gasol was on that team and he'll be in the hall of fame whether you agree with it or not.

[willds09]

I thought it was called high school dropout.
that was corny just like your thread:rolleyes:

[Dave3]

I thought it was called high school dropout.
:lebronamazed: :bowdown:

But seriously though, this is obviously a troll thread. Anything made with circumstances this arbitrary (like that Kobe with only 1 HOF teammate record made by some Kobe stan) is always going to be for the purpose of propagating an agenda.

[kennethgriffin]

Pau Gasol was on that team and he'll be in the hall of fame whether you agree with it or not.


based on what

[kennethgriffin]

a hall of famer is a perenial allstar in his prime. dominates for around a decade. shows atleast some value when having to carry the load by himself


gasol only made 4 back up role allstar games... had only really 2-3 great years in a decade... and is 0-15 on his own..

theres much more deserving guys to make the hall that probably wont

[leMVP]

wait, mo williams isn't HoF? :roll: :roll:

[willds09]

and how tha phuck did tony bitch made montana got me with tha high school dropout line?? niguh i got my diploma, so that doesnt make any sense what that cornball said:coleman:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Has Kobe ever led a team farther than Gasol with just one HOF teammate?

Kobe 5 rings
Pau 2 rings
Lebron 2010 2nd round exit

Kobe>Pau>Lebron

:confusedshrug:

[willds09]

Has Kobe ever led a team farther than Gasol with just one HOF teammate?

Kobe 5 rings
Pau 2 rings
Lebron 2010 2nd round exit

Kobe>Pau>Lebron

:confusedshrug:
:roll:

[kamil]

I thought it was called high school dropout.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_81Muh4Wz7oU/TEcpWmZ7_9I/AAAAAAAAAo8/sc9ysbRp8mc/s1600/gotchabitch128545103996260000.jpg

[Mr. Jabbar]

so i guess that means iverson iz better than lebron right?? since he won at least one game in 2001 finals with a horrible team and harder path to tha finals than lebron and tha swept cavs in tha 2007 finals right?? or maybe billups is better than all cuz he led tha 2004 pistons to a title?? get tha phuck out here with your retarded analogies:facepalm

:applause:

tony is just desperate this season made kobe look even better when they were so waiting for a dissaster :oldlol: , dude put them in the playoffs in heroic way then his teammates prove they're in the bobcats tier w/o him. Haters in complete meltdown. Meanwhile their hero continues to rack up asterisks :facepalm

[willds09]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_81Muh4Wz7oU/TEcpWmZ7_9I/AAAAAAAAAo8/sc9ysbRp8mc/s1600/gotchabitch128545103996260000.jpg man shut your bitch ass up with your gay ass obama pic too.

[kamil]

man shut your bitch ass up with your gay ass obama pic too.

No.

[willds09]

:applause:

tony is just desperate this season made kobe look even better when they were so waiting for a dissaster :oldlol: , dude put them in the playoffs in heroic way then his teammates prove they're in the bobcats tier w/o him. Haters in complete meltdown. Meanwhile their hero continues to rack up asterisks :facepalm
you are right, haters will hate.

[willds09]

No.
word? thats what you tried to say, when you got gangbanged and raped by sum dudes??:lol

[TonyMontana]

Has Kobe ever led a team farther than Gasol with just one HOF teammate?

Kobe 5 rings
Pau 2 rings
Lebron 2010 2nd round exit

Kobe>Pau>Lebron

:confusedshrug:

Sorry wrong thread, this one is about no HOF teammates.

But I'll leave you with this.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/hs2tdi.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/4sceph.jpg

Gasol generated more wins for his team than Kobe did from 09-11 and Shaq generated more wins for his team from 00-02. Looks like Kobe was always the sidekick while LeBron has always been the man for his teams. How about that?

[willds09]

Sorry wrong thread, this one is about no HOF teammates.

But I'll leave you with this.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/hs2tdi.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/4sceph.jpg

Gasol generated more wins for his team than Kobe did from 09-11 and Shaq generated more wins for his team from 00-02. Looks like Kobe was always the sidekick while LeBron has always been the man for his teams. How about that?
who gaved up tha most??? i will wait

[tazb]

Another quality post by Tony:applause: :applause:

Future-repped

This.:applause: :applause:

[TheWalkman]

@TonyMontana

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Best contributor on ISH

[Rose'sACL]

who gaved up tha most??? i will wait
haha. look at this guy and laugh.

[willds09]

haha. look at this guy and laugh.
everytime i bring up facts, niguhs wanna come up with pointless comebacks, sad and pitiful:facepalm

[Wavves]

As much as I don't like arguing about how Kobe/Lebron are not as great as they seem, because they are 2 of the greats of the game, there is no denying at some of the evidence that has been shown.

But at the same time, Kobe cannot be blasted for having a HOF player beside him. Lakers should be applauded for making sure he has help. That's why he has 5 rings while Lebron didn't get one while with Cleveland.

Basketball is a team game.

[willds09]

As much as I don't like arguing about how Kobe/Lebron are not as great as they seem, because they are 2 of the greats of the game, there is no denying at some of the evidence that has been shown.

But at the same time, Kobe cannot be blasted for having a HOF player beside him. Lakers should be applauded for making sure he has help. That's why he has 5 rings while Lebron didn't get one while with Cleveland.


i love it:oldlol:

[Rose'sACL]

and how tha phuck did tony bitch made montana got me with tha high school dropout line?? niguh i got my diploma, so that doesnt make any sense what that cornball said:coleman:
haha. look at this guy and laugh.

[Suguru101]

I thought it was called high school dropout.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:bowdown:

[willds09]

haha. look at this guy and laugh.
thats how u spell diploma retard, unless u dont have one yourself:facepalm

[Wavves]

Exactly

The Lakers have done a GREAT job. They've put the most talented team on the floor more than anyone in the past 15 years. They should be applauded for this.

The thing is you have these Kobe fans talking about how the coach sucks/the team sucks/the GM sucks. No they dont, take a ****ing look around the league and see how many other teams have been able to put a contender out there as many times as LA has.

They blame everyone, but Kobe that it makes the fanbase so incredibly homosexual how they cant take a minute to take the dudes dick out of their mouth. When it was just Kobe the franchise couldn't win a single series, but when the team surrounds Kobe with a dominant frontcourt and hall of fame bigmen thats when the team can actually make some noise. Its the Lakers fan mindset of "Gasol sucks/Dwight sucks/Kobe 5 ringz!!! that makes them the worst fanbase in the NBA.

Yeah I get you completely. It's definitely frustrating and that's why "Laker fans" are the most annoying fanbase in all of sports.

[Rose'sACL]

thats how u spell diploma retard, unless u dont have one yourself:facepalm
I made "diploma" bold because you write like a 4 yr old and talk about diploma.

[funnystuff]

Kobe stans worst enemy, facts.

[jcsrplumply]

Kobe had Lamar Odom then Smush Parker while Pau Gasol had more reliable teammates on that team (Mike Miller-Shane Battier-Bobby Jackson-Eddie Jones (I probably have missed some players that were good on that team))
But yeah I do agree - they both can't win without another hall of famer on the same team.

And what the hell guys? This thread turned into Kobe-Lebron thread so fast.

[willds09]

I made "diploma" bold because you write like a 4 yr old and talk about diploma.
you are making no sense kid:facepalm

[willds09]

which bitch in here negged me telling me to learn how to spell??:mad:

[Magic 32]

The combined record of the teams Kobe faced without Shaq or Gasol in the first round:

115-49 (.701%)

The combined record of the teams Lebron faced without Wade or Bosh in the first round:

206-204 (.502%)

The combined record of the teams Lebron faced without Wade or Bosh in the second round!:

268-142 (.653%)

Worst team Kobe faced....54-28 (West)
Best team Lebron beat.....53-29 (East).
__________________________________________

Teams Lebron beat "on his own" (06-10):

2005-06 Washington Wizards (42-40)
2006-07 New Jersey Nets (41-41)
2006-07 Washington Wizards (41-41)
2007-08 Washington Wizards (43-39)
2008-09 Detroit Pistons (39-43)
2009-10 Chicago Bulls (41-41)

2008-09 Atlanta Hawks (47-35)

2006-07 Detroit Pistons (53-29)

So in 5 tries, Lebron was able to beat 6 crappy teams, 1 mediocre team, and 1 good (but old) team.

The stuff of legends. :facepalm



Chew on those facts motherf*ckers.

[STATUTORY]

Sorry wrong thread, this one is about no HOF teammates.

But I'll leave you with this.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/hs2tdi.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/4sceph.jpg

Gasol generated more wins for his team than Kobe did from 09-11 and Shaq generated more wins for his team from 00-02. Looks like Kobe was always the sidekick while LeBron has always been the man for his teams. How about that?

ZERO for TWENTY in playoffs without Kobe. The reason Gasol put up those numbers is because of Kobe

Kobe made Gasol a HOFer so it's disingenuous to discredit Kobe based on his "HOF" help

Without joining Kobe, Gasol is looking at 2 All star selection and that's it. That's no HOF

[ShaqAttack3234]

ZERO for TWENTY in playoffs without Kobe. The reason Gasol put up those numbers is because of Kobe

Kobe made Gasol a HOFer so it's disingenuous to discredit Kobe based on his "HOF" help

Without joining Kobe, Gasol is looking at 2 All star selection and that's it. That's no HOF

Gasol averaged 20/9/5/2 and 21/10/3/2 during his last 2 full seasons in Memphis and over his 6 1/2 seasons there, he averaged 19/9/3/2, so there goes your numbers argument. But just to add insult to injury, Pau's numbers in 9 games without Kobe during the 2010 season were 21.4 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 4 apg and 2.8 bpg.



As far as who "made" Gasol? Funny how your quick to credit Kobe instead of Phil Jackson, the triangle and merely being able to be a second option on a really good team instead of being expected to be a franchise player. Not to mention, he was just 27 when he joined the Lakers, that 27/28 period is around the time most players peak.

Pau is a great player. Just look at his post game, length and passing skills. Kobe didn't give him those. There are very few big men in the league during the last 5 years who could have replaced Pau during those back to back runs and been equally effective.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

My man



I can't even tell what that dude is saying. It's like he types with a dick in his mouth.



Exactly

The Lakers have done a GREAT job. They've put the most talented team on the floor more than anyone in the past 15 years. They should be applauded for this.

The thing is you have these Kobe fans talking about how the coach sucks/the team sucks/the GM sucks. No they dont, take a ****ing look around the league and see how many other teams have been able to put a contender out there as many times as LA has.

They blame everyone, but Kobe that it makes the fanbase so incredibly homosexual how they cant take a minute to take the dudes dick out of their mouth. When it was just Kobe the franchise couldn't win a single series, but when the team surrounds Kobe with a dominant frontcourt and hall of fame bigmen thats when the team can actually make some noise. Its the Lakers fan mindset of "Gasol sucks/Dwight sucks/Kobe 5 ringz!!! that makes them the worst fanbase in the NBA.

Kobe Bryant won 5 rings with just one HOF teammate per title team.
He won 5 rings with just one all star teammate.
He won 5 rings without an all defensive 1st team teammate.
I'm looking around the league. I see Lebron with Wade AND Bosh. I see Duncan with Parker AND Ginobli. I see Garnett with Pierce AND Allen. I see Bird with Mchale AND Parrish. I see Magic with Kareem AND Worthy. I see Kobe with Shaq OR Gasol. I see a 15 year drought in between having 2 all star teammates. I see no .500 or worse playoff squads on the playoff resume.
Unmatched in history. :confusedshrug:

Hopefully this dominant frontcourt will avoid getting swept without him.

[PickernRoller]

Gasol averaged 20/9/5/2 and 21/10/3/2 during his last 2 full seasons in Memphis and over his 6 1/2 seasons there, he averaged 19/9/3/2, so there goes your numbers argument. But just to add insult to injury, Pau's numbers in 9 games without Kobe during the 2010 season were 21.4 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 4 apg and 2.8 bpg.



As far as who "made" Gasol? Funny how your quick to credit Kobe instead of Phil Jackson, the triangle and merely being able to be a second option on a really good team instead of being expected to be a franchise player. Not to mention, he was just 27 when he joined the Lakers, that 27/28 period is around the time most players peak.

Pau is a great player. Just look at his post game, length and passing skills. Kobe didn't give him those. There are very few big men in the league during the last 5 years who could have replaced Pau during those back to back runs and been equally effective.

KG - Kobe's pick.
Duncan
Dwight
Dirk
Yao
Chris Bosh
Amare
+ others you could hypothetically make a case for.

List ain't that short. Maybe you're overrating your point. (level of play for 08-10)

-----lol at the thread. Willad taking the alts too seriously - repeated offenders trolling for a living.

[Heavincent]

If we're assuming that Pau really is a HOFer...

Titles with just 1 HOF teammate:

Kobe - 5
Lebron - 0

Arbitrary stats are fun.

[FiveRings]

and how tha phuck did tony bitch made montana got me with tha high school dropout line?? niguh i got my diploma, so that doesnt make any sense what that cornball said:coleman:
Tony Montana is a goof, and I agree with the points you were making earlier wilds09, but he got you with that line.

There's a reason you get clowned on here my dude. My six year old daughter has better grammar than yours. Don't you think that's kind of sad?

I understand that you're typing that way on purpose and that you're not just a complete idiot. Why do you do it though? You think it's cool to type like that? Is this supposed to be your way of rebelling against the white man's language? Do you just dislike all of us white folks? It's 2013 my man. A black man is president, so clearly a good number of white people are not racists. There are still many racists around, sure, but why act like one yourself?

You misspelling the majority of your words on purpose only makes you come across as an idiot or a ten year old who's doing it because he thinks it's cool.

I'm not trying to put down your culture here. I remember you had Iverson in your avatar. I love AI. Allen Iverson is my third favourite player all time. My favourite music all time is two black guys, Tupac and Michael Jackson. You may not have noticed this, but you are the ONLY one here typing in this ridiculous way. Why do you think that is?

[longtime lurker]

I'm shocked Tony Montana creates ANOTHER boring Kobe related thread. I I guess this is what it looks like if Derivative and genghis Kahn had a retarded love child.

Still waiting for you to show how the Lakers are better without Kobe

[STATUTORY]

Gasol averaged 20/9/5/2 and 21/10/3/2 during his last 2 full seasons in Memphis, so there goes your numbers argument. But just to add insult to injury, Pau's numbers in 9 games without Kobe during the 2010 season were 21.4 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 4 apg and 2.8 bpg.

As far as who "made" Gasol? Funny how your quick to credit Kobe instead of Phil Jackson, the triangle and merely being able to be a second option on a really good team instead of being expected to be a franchise player. Not to mention, he was just 27 when he joined the Lakers, that 27/28 period is around the time most players peak.

Pau is a great player. Just look at his post game, length and passing skills. Kobe didn't give him those. There are very few big men in the league during the last 5 years who could have replaced Pau during those back to back runs and been equally effective.

Pau Gasol was a great complementary piece to both Kobe and the triangle offense. If people said stuff like that instead how he is a superstar and insinuate his game was on that type of level then I would have no geripe.

[PickernRoller]

I'm shocked Tony Montana creates ANOTHER boring Kobe related thread. I I guess this is what it looks like if Derivative and genghis Kahn had a retarded love child.

Still waiting for you to show how the Lakers are better without Kobe

Lol there are at most 3 guys in this forum controlling about 20 alts - banned and active. No need to guess, you just know.

[ShaqAttack3234]

KG - Kobe's pick.

2009? He was injured pretty much the entire second half and out for the entire playoffs. 2010? He simply wasn't good enough.


Duncan

The easiest to compare, and one I could see. Though Duncan was getting worn out late in the season around this time and already not playing the minutes Gasol was.


Dwight

In terms of impact, probably, but unsure if he's as good of a fit. It's possible, so I'll grant you this one as well.


Dirk

A Dirk/Odom big man duo in 2009? I don't see that working. 2010? Possible with Bynum able to give a little more, but he doesn't fit as well as Gasol and the Lakers didn't have an easy time as it is.

If the scenario is simply Dirk replacing Gasol with nothing else changing, I'm saying no to this one, but even if I conceded this, Dirk was an elite player and will be a first ballot Hall of famer who led his team to a title the year after.


Yao

Went down in the 2009 playiffs with essentially a career-ending injury and didn't play at all in 2010.


Chris Bosh

:roll:


Amare

:roll:

So you named one of the greatest players of all-time Duncan, who was still a top 10-15 range player and Dwight who was a top 5 player at the time as the valid choices. Even if I grant you Dirk, he was a top 5 type player at the time as well.

So what's your point? That a hall of fame big man or a superstar big man could have won in Pau's place?

[DMAVS41]

2009? He was injured pretty much the entire second half and out for the entire playoffs. 2010? He simply wasn't good enough.



The easiest to compare, and one I could see. Though Duncan was getting worn out late in the season around this time and already not playing the minutes Gasol was.



In terms of impact, probably, but unsure if he's as good of a fit. It's possible, so I'll grant you this one as well.



A Dirk/Odom big man duo in 2009? I don't see that working. 2010? Possible with Bynum able to give a little more, but he doesn't fit as well as Gasol and the Lakers didn't have an easy time as it is.

If the scenario is simply Dirk replacing Gasol with nothing else changing, I'm saying no to this one, but even if I conceded this, Dirk was an elite player and will be a first ballot Hall of famer who led his team to a title the year after.



Went down in the 2009 playiffs with essentially a career-ending injury and didn't play at all in 2010.



:roll:



:roll:

So you named one of the greatest players of all-time Duncan, who was still a top 10-15 range player and Dwight who was a top 5 player at the time as the valid choices. Even if I grant you Dirk, he was a top 5 type player at the time as well.

So what's your point? That a hall of fame big man or a superstar big man could have won in Pau's place?

Yea. This.

So Duncan (top 8 player of all time), Dirk (top 20 player of all time), and Howard (best center in the league)...all might have been able to replace Gasol and win the title.

Bosh and Amare just aren't doing it. No way. Howard and Dirk most likely are...but again, those guys had legit "best player in the league"...at worst top 5 in the game. Duncan is a maybe.

These labels are getting old. Gasol was a top 10 player in the league in both 09 and 10. Is that superstar status? I don't know or care. Doesn't matter to me what the label is. He was an elite player and happens to be the rare commodity of versatile 7 footer that can score in the post, make jump shots, is an excellent passer...and very under-rated on defense.

What more do you want?

[Doranku]

Kobe won two titles without any HoF teammates. You can count Gasol as a HoFer if you want, but the only reason that he'll make it into the Hall is because of his International resume, not for his level of play.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yea. This.

So Duncan (top 8 player of all time), Dirk (top 20 player of all time), and Howard (best center in the league)...all might have been able to replace Gasol and win the title.

Bosh and Amare just aren't doing it. No way. Howard and Dirk most likely are...but again, those guys had legit "best player in the league"...at worst top 5 in the game. Duncan is a maybe.

These labels are getting old. Gasol was a top 10 player in the league in both 09 and 10. Is that superstar status? I don't know or care. Doesn't matter to me what the label is. He was an elite player and happens to be the rare commodity of versatile 7 footer that can score in the post, make jump shots, is an excellent passer...and very under-rated on defense.

What more do you want?

Bosh and Amare couldn't do it based on what exactly? Production? Efficiency? Jump shooting ability? Those 3 assists per game? You can replace Gasol with any all star big men from the West Coast during that team or even potentially a handful of "almost" all stars.

[DMAVS41]

Bosh and Amare couldn't do it based on what exactly? Production? Efficiency? Jump shooting ability? Those 3 assists per game? You can replace Gasol with any all star big men from the West Coast during that team or even potentially a handful of "almost" all stars.

On defense alone they wouldn't have been able to do it. Throw in rebounding as well as something they couldn't replace.

NO you couldn't....WTF are you talking about.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

On defense alone they wouldn't have been able to do it. Throw in rebounding as well as something they couldn't replace.

NO you couldn't....WTF are you talking about.

Amare and Bosh of 2010 are comparable rebounders and collectively subpar defenders.

Yikes the delusion runs deep. Pau Gasol... defensive powerhouse. :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Kobe won two titles without any HoF teammates. You can count Gasol as a HoFer if you want, but the only reason that he'll make it into the Hall is because of his International resume, not for his level of play.

It is a combination of both.

He's a 18/9/3 regular season player. A 17/10/3 playoff player. He's made the finals 3 times and won two titles as the 2nd best player.

He's played 12 years and produced pretty consistently since day 1.

Yes, his international play puts him over the top...as it should. He's been a beast there as well.

[DMAVS41]

Amare and Bosh of 2010 are comparable rebounders and collectively subpar defenders.

Yikes the delusion runs deep. Pau Gasol... defensive powerhouse. :facepalm

If you can't see the difference...I give up. Why does it have to be to the extreme. Defensive powerhouse? No, but certainly a higher impact defender than those two guys.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If you can't see the difference...I give up. Why does it have to be to the extreme. Defensive powerhouse? No, but certainly a higher impact defender than those two guys.

Pau Gasol peaked out at average at best on defense. The Lakers title chances were never cemented on his defensive prowess. His defensive reputation was so low that not getting humiliated by Garnett or Howard was considered his big personal triumph. Its comical. Whatever minimal gap there exist on defense can be matched by Bosh and Amare superior offensive range and scoring ability.

Its funny how a non defensive factor like Gasol can't possibly be replaced with guys with similar production but all defensive team mainstay in young Kobe is "replaceable" with a half dozen guys who never sniff defensive relevance in these type of discussions.

[Bandito]

It's called the Western Conference.
I know right. Why are lebronstans so insecure about Lebron's legacy that they have to knock on wood all the time? Is like everyday I see a new retarded topic about how crappy Kobe is. If Lebron is better than Kobe let the game speak for itself.

[KingBeasley08]

Forget April 2013. Top 10 poster all time

[tpols]

It's called the Western Conference.
Was about to say..:oldlol:

Playing in the east for the past decade+ is a serious boost to the resume I guess.

[red1]

Actually it is impossible for lebron to win a title without a superstar player near his side, absolutely impossible, his playing style doesn't allow that.
That doesn't mean that he's somehow worse as a player though.
care to explain what you mean?

[Robalvarez2010]

I am trying to understand why a New York Knicks fan is on this thread defending Kobe Bryant.....:confusedshrug:

[Robalvarez2010]

in 06 kobe lost against tha damn red hot suns in tha 1st round, and in 07 lebron had to play against horrible east teams and an old and done pistons team, kobe still better

I am talking about this Knicks fan.

[kennethgriffin]

gasol won't make the hall of fame as an NBA player though

his only way to get in is as an international contributer to the sport of basketball


that doesnt count as an NBA hall of famer

kobe will still have technically won without one even if gasol somehow got in after 10 trys 50 years from now





















/thread

[chosen_wun]

gasol won't make the hall of fame as an NBA player though

his only way to get in is as an international contributer to the sport of basketball


that doesnt count as an NBA hall of famer

kobe will still have technically won without one even if gasol somehow got in after 10 trys 50 years from now





















/thread
He has the credentials to get in on a NBA ballot.

[dh144498]

It's called the Western Conference.

this. And is it a coincidence that all the replies that agree with the OP are mostly April 2013?

:coleman:

[TonyMontana]

ShaqAttaq and DMAVs you guys are just owning them too hard.

Pau Gasol is a HOF because the only players you can replace him with is Dirk/Dwight/MAYBE Duncan. At the time Dwight-Dirk-Gasol were the top 3 consensus among bigs in the league. A lot of people were saying Duncan was declining hard and wasn't in their class anymore. This is just people in hindsight who see his name and go on to overrate him to try and push their agenda. Gasol > Duncan from 09-11.

Bosh and Amare? :oldlol:

Gasol is a great interior player(offensively and defensively) due to his elite length. Bosh and Amare? Not so much. Neither are great passers, both are bad on defense(Bosh was an awful defender on Toronto), and most of their game is mid range jumpshots. Without Gasol LA loses that edge inside that won them rebounding battles.

The Lakers won because Gasol was an absolute perfect bigman for the triangle with his combination of passing and post moves. No other bigman in the NBA had assets better suited to the triangle than Gasol did. He had the best low post moves and was the best passing big in the league.

[dh144498]

Kobe only needed 1 HOF teammate to win it all, most people need 2 or more HOF teammates to win.

[HeatFanSince88]

Kobe only needed 1 HOF teammate to win it all, most people need 2 or more HOF teammates to win.

He never lead a team farther than Gasol did as the lone all-star according to the team records. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

ShaqAttaq and DMAVs you guys are just owning them too hard.

Pau Gasol is a HOF because the only players you can replace him with is Dirk/Dwight/MAYBE Duncan. At the time Dwight-Dirk-Gasol were the top 3 consensus among bigs in the league. A lot of people were saying Duncan was declining hard and wasn't in their class anymore. This is just people in hindsight who see his name and go on to overrate him to try and push their agenda. Gasol > Duncan from 09-11.

Bosh and Amare? :oldlol:

Gasol is a great interior player(offensively and defensively) due to his elite length. Bosh and Amare? Not so much. Neither are great passers, both are bad on defense(Bosh was an awful defender on Toronto), and most of their game is mid range jumpshots. Without Gasol LA loses that edge inside that won them rebounding battles.

The Lakers won because Gasol was an absolute perfect bigman for the triangle with his combination of passing and post moves. No other bigman in the NBA had assets better suited to the triangle than Gasol did. He had the best low post moves and was the best passing big in the league.

The notion that 10 KG, Bosh, and Amare could replace Gasol during the back to back titles and still have won is just horribly inaccurate. Not only does it not make sense in basketball terms, but those guys just weren't as good...especially 10 KG. That is just a joke.

But in another thread we have Yao calling Bosh a superstar for averaging 14/8/1 last year in the playoffs...but refusing to call Gasol a superstar after averaging 19/11/3 over a two year span with back to back titles in the playoffs. Oh yea...and he plays better defense.

Great logic...bu bu bu bu but...Bosh makes the all-star team. ROFL...

[dh144498]

He never lead a team farther than Gasol did as the lone all-star according to the team records. :oldlol:

who cares. He won 5, 2 with Gasol. While your boy choked with 2 HOFers in their primes in 2011 and needed a lockout season and multiple injuries in the Eastern Conference to finally win, while taken to 7 games by an old Celtics team, and 6 games by the Pacers. :oldlol:

[HeatFanSince88]

who cares. He won 5, 2 with Gasol. While your boy choked with 2 HOFers in their primes in 2011 and needed a lockout season and multiple injuries in the Eastern Conference to finally win, while taken to 7 games by an old Celtics team, and 6 games by the Pacers. :oldlol:

How does a lockout season make it any easier to win a championship?

And if your going to say he struggled with the Pacers and Celtics then you can't say he had 2 Prime HOFers since one of them was banged up and one of them wasn't even playing.

[red1]

Because his game benefits wade and bosh so damn much that you could argue who helped who more, bosh and wade helped lebron or lebron helped bosh and wade.
What he had in cleveland was technically a perfect team for him, right? On paper probably the deepest team in the league with great shooters and a very good frontcourt. But none of those guys had the skill to takeover a game on any night, lebron had to do a lot for his team with his all-around game and the jack of all trades, master of none couldn't get the team on his back, since none of those guys were above average passers and could put him in great positions to score as he didn't have a go-to move and was pretty weak mentally.
Long story short, Wade has taken pressure of of him which made him a player we see today. This probably would've never happened in cleveland even with the best team on paper in the game. Kobe or let's say hakeem would've been better with that cleveland team, but it's harder for them to play with fellow superstar players
this is one of the worsts posts in insidehoops history

[DMAVS41]

who cares. He won 5, 2 with Gasol. While your boy choked with 2 HOFers in their primes in 2011 and needed a lockout season and multiple injuries in the Eastern Conference to finally win, while taken to 7 games by an old Celtics team, and 6 games by the Pacers. :oldlol:

Do people really expect others to just also forget that Bosh was hurt last year for the playoffs?

I mean...it was less than a year ago. He only started 10 of the 14 games he played...and he averaged 14/8/1. Certainly a fine third option...but certainly not hall of fame worthy praise that keeps getting thrown around.

It actually matters how players play. When will that ****ing fact ever sink in?

[STATUTORY]

Do people really expect others to just also forget that Bosh was hurt last year for the playoffs?

I mean...it was less than a year ago. He only started 10 of the 14 games he played...and he averaged 14/8/1. Certainly a fine third option...but certainly not hall of fame worthy praise that keeps getting thrown around.

It actually matters how players play. When will that ****ing fact ever sink in?


the type of stats players put up is a function of the other players on their team and what their role is. Bosh might have averaged 14/8/1 but we know from other seasons what he's capable of doing and that is a top 3 PF and top 15 player in the league. He's a HOF type of talent that has to conserve and suppress his talent cause of his role on a team but that does not diminish his value as a supporting player.

so your claim that Bosh wasn't worthy of praise cause of 14/8/1 is BS cause he did what he was suppose to do perfectly.

[ripthekik]

Do people really expect others to just also forget that Bosh was hurt last year for the playoffs?

I mean...it was less than a year ago. He only started 10 of the 14 games he played...and he averaged 14/8/1. Certainly a fine third option...but certainly not hall of fame worthy praise that keeps getting thrown around.

It actually matters how players play. When will that ****ing fact ever sink in?
His play cannot be judged by his numbers. Do you expect him to put up Toronto numbers? Healthy or not, he's not going to be able to do that. He might still play at the level of Toronto, but it won't show at the statlines.

For example, look at the all-star game. Look at the stars that come off the bench with their meager lines. Do you say they're not stars anymore? :facepalm
They still play at their all-star level. But because of minutes, sharing the ball, they don't get the same statlines that got them there.

[KOBEMAMBA24]

Do people really expect others to just also forget that Bosh was hurt last year for the playoffs?

I mean...it was less than a year ago. He only started 10 of the 14 games he played...and he averaged 14/8/1. Certainly a fine third option...but certainly not hall of fame worthy praise that keeps getting thrown around.

It actually matters how players play. When will that ****ing fact ever sink in?

Similar to Gasol numbers, and it's already been established that Pau is a certified Hall of Fame caliber second option.

[Asiantastic]

Anyone who thinks Gasol isn't HOF material is a turd.

Sure he's been playing poorly the last few years but don't downplay the fact that after his acquisition the Lakers made it to the Finals that year.

Lakers minus Gasol = 14 Championships, instead of 16 Championships
Or for those riding Kobe's dick:
Kobe minus Gasol = 3 Championships as #2, instead of 5 Championships (2 as #1 option)

[DMAVS41]

His play cannot be judged by his numbers. Do you expect him to put up Toronto numbers? Healthy or not, he's not going to be able to do that. He might still play at the level of Toronto, but it won't show at the statlines.

For example, look at the all-star game. Look at the stars that come off the bench with their meager lines. Do you say they're not stars anymore? :facepalm
They still play at their all-star level. But because of minutes, sharing the ball, they don't get the same statlines that got them there.

That's my point. It's called the law of diminishing returns....you simply can't make the impact in those minutes on limited touches..etc. And the other part of this is that Bosh isn't a very good rebounder or defender...so it's not like he has a large impact on the game outside of his numbers.

Yes, he does stretch the floor well and does offer matchup difficulties, but I'm not sure if that trumps the added defense and rebounding another player might bring in that role.

Which is why in terms of actual impact. There is no difference between what Odom gave the Lakers to what Bosh gives the Heat these last 2 years in the playoffs overall. Yet, Bosh as a franchise player would be much better.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[MaxFly]

We'll go with their best years without a hall of fame teammate which ironically enough was 05-06 for both of them(Gasol emerged as an all-star and Kobe had his 35 PPG season and 81 point game). None of them had any hall of famers on their team during these stints. Who led their team to more wins?

Pau Gasol without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 49-33(.598) L Round 1

Kobe Bryant without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 45-37(.548) L Round 1

Just for good measure I'll throw in LeBron since Kobe fans are obsessed with him.

LeBron James without a hall of fame teammate
06-07: 50-32(.601) L Finals
08-09: 66-16( .805) L ECF

So looks like according to the logic of needing as little talent as possible as teammates LeBron > Gasol > Kobe. Without having another hall of famer on the team Kobe cant win more than 45 games or a series.

How many games did Pau win in the playoffs?

[HeatFanSince88]

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because their kobe stans.

Their only purpose in basketball is to undersell the impact of Kobes teammates in an effort to try and hype Kobe up while taking anyone that could threaten Kobes legacy(LeBron) by overrating his teammates. Thats all they have to live for.

[ripthekik]

That's my point. It's called the law of diminishing returns....you simply can't make the impact in those minutes on limited touches..etc. And the other part of this is that Bosh isn't a very good rebounder or defender...so it's not like he has a large impact on the game outside of his numbers.

Yes, he does stretch the floor well and does offer matchup difficulties, but I'm not sure if that trumps the added defense and rebounding another player might bring in that role.

Which is why in terms of actual impact. There is no difference between what Odom gave the Lakers to what Bosh gives the Heat these last 2 years in the playoffs overall. Yet, Bosh as a franchise player would be much better.

Why is that so hard to understand?
Yes, so the point is that stats don't tell the story.

Now, the story?
Odom is a role player at best, while Bosh is someone who led his own franchise for 7 years and is a star.

What Bosh brings to the table is absolutely different from what Odom brings. Odom brings role-player playing at his maximum potential. Bosh brings star capacity playing as 3rd option.

[duatjsghd]

We'll go with their best years without a hall of fame teammate which ironically enough was 05-06 for both of them(Gasol emerged as an all-star and Kobe had his 35 PPG season and 81 point game). None of them had any hall of famers on their team during these stints. Who led their team to more wins?

Pau Gasol without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 49-33(.598) L Round 1

Kobe Bryant without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 45-37(.548) L Round 1

Just for good measure I'll throw in LeBron since Kobe fans are obsessed with him.

LeBron James without a hall of fame teammate
06-07: 50-32(.601) L Finals
08-09: 66-16( .805) L ECF

So looks like according to the logic of needing as little talent as possible as teammates LeBron > Gasol > Kobe. Without having another hall of famer on the team Kobe cant win more than 45 games or a series.
:applause: good point

[Is He Ill]

Because their kobe stans.

Their only purpose in basketball is to undersell the impact of Kobes teammates in an effort to try and hype Kobe up while taking anyone that could threaten Kobes legacy(LeBron) by overrating his teammates. Thats all they have to live for.

You Lebron stans and Kobe stans are two sides of the same coin. These threads are hilarious.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, so the point is that stats don't tell the story.

Now, the story?
Odom is a role player at best, while Bosh is someone who led his own franchise for 7 years and is a star.

What Bosh brings to the table is absolutely different from what Odom brings. Odom brings role-player playing at his maximum potential. Bosh brings star capacity playing as 3rd option.

Odom was not at his max as a 3rd option. this is a guy that averaged 17/10/4 on the Heat the year before he came to the Lakers...LOL

Again. Bosh is better suited to be a first option. But in terms of playing a limited role as a 3rd option? Impact is about as close as it can be in terms of numbers and actual impact.

Now, if Wade gets hurt and Bosh has to play 2nd option? Yea...he'd be better at that than Odom would have been. But that is just a hypothetical that hasn't really happened yet.

The point is that Bosh has done nothing more than Odom did as a third option...and certainly hasn't had the impact Gasol had on the Lakers. Sorry.

[iamgine]

We'll go with their best years without a hall of fame teammate which ironically enough was 05-06 for both of them(Gasol emerged as an all-star and Kobe had his 35 PPG season and 81 point game). None of them had any hall of famers on their team during these stints. Who led their team to more wins?

Pau Gasol without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 49-33(.598) L Round 1

Kobe Bryant without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 45-37(.548) L Round 1

Just for good measure I'll throw in LeBron since Kobe fans are obsessed with him.

LeBron James without a hall of fame teammate
06-07: 50-32(.601) L Finals
08-09: 66-16( .805) L ECF

So looks like according to the logic of needing as little talent as possible as teammates LeBron > Gasol > Kobe. Without having another hall of famer on the team Kobe cant win more than 45 games or a series.
"Without a HOF teammate" range from Smush Parker to Shawn Kemp.

[ripthekik]

Odom was not at his max as a 3rd option. this is a guy that averaged 17/10/4 on the Heat the year before he came to the Lakers...LOL

Again. Bosh is better suited to be a first option. But in terms of playing a limited role as a 3rd option? Impact is about as close as it can be in terms of numbers and actual impact.

Now, if Wade gets hurt and Bosh has to play 2nd option? Yea...he'd be better at that than Odom would have been. But that is just a hypothetical that hasn't really happened yet.

The point is that Bosh has done nothing more than Odom did as a third option...and certainly hasn't had the impact Gasol had on the Lakers. Sorry.
You're getting the impact part wrong, as you depend too much on stats.
Let me tell you, stats and level of play are 2 different things. Isn't that what we established? Didnt you agree with me above?

Let me give you a clearer example. Let's say Larry Bird averages the same stats as Odom(say 19/8) while playing in olympics with MJ and Magic. Are you going to tell me his impact was just the same as someone like Odom? That he played at same level as Odom?

The impact of a player and level of play isn't shown by the stats. A player can continue to play at his level, even though his stats suffer from having star teammates.

Basically, Bosh can still be playing at his toronto level while the stats doesn't show. Odom? he's never reached that level. When has he ever led a team? His ceiling is a roleplayer, and he hit that ceiling.

[DMAVS41]

You're getting the impact part wrong, as you depend too much on stats.
Let me tell you, stats and level of play are 2 different things. Isn't that what we established? Didnt you agree with me above?

Let me give you a clearer example. Let's say Larry Bird averages the same stats as Odom(say 19/8) while playing in olympics with MJ and Magic. Are you going to tell me his impact was just the same as someone like Odom? That he played at same level as Odom?

The impact of a player and level of play isn't shown by the stats. A player can continue to play at his level, even though his stats suffer from having star teammates.

Basically, Bosh can still be playing at his toronto level while the stats doesn't show. Odom? he's never reached that level. When has he ever led a team? His ceiling is a roleplayer, and he hit that ceiling.

With a guy like Bird it's different. Bosh is the opposite. Bosh isn't a great passer. Isn't a very good rebounder. Isn't a very good defender. He doesn't do much without the ball in his hands other than space the floor.

So it's a terrible comparison actually. What does Bosh do in terms of impact that Odom didn't do in their roles? If Bosh was a great defender or off ball player...etc....it would be different. Both of them make big shots. Both of them can stretch the floor...albeit bosh is better. Bosh is a better low post scorer while Odom is the better defender and passer and is more versatile with his ball handling.

You just simply aren't getting all the things that make Bosh a better first option enough on the Heat in his role. He's essentially a great spot up jump shooter that plays average defense and rebounds alright now I guess. Bosh is a limited player in that way. He's not KG or Pippen...he's a poor man's Dirk.

[ripthekik]

With a guy like Bird it's different. Bosh is the opposite. Bosh isn't a great passer. Isn't a very good rebounder. Isn't a very good defender. He doesn't do much without the ball in his hands other than space the floor.

So it's a terrible comparison actually. What does Bosh do in terms of impact that Odom didn't do in their roles? If Bosh was a great defender or off ball player...etc....it would be different. Both of them make big shots. Both of them can stretch the floor...albeit bosh is better. Bosh is a better low post scorer while Odom is the better defender and passer and is more versatile with his ball handling.

You just simply aren't getting all the things that make Bosh a better first option enough on the Heat in his role. He's essentially a great spot up jump shooter that plays average defense and rebounds alright now I guess. Bosh is a limited player in that way. He's not KG or Pippen...he's a poor man's Dirk.
I wasn't comparing Bosh to Bird. I was using Bird to show you that the impact/level of play is separated from stats. Seems like you got it.

So now you can stop saying Odom=Bosh just because they have similar stats. Bosh's ceiling is that of an all star starter who led his own team for 7 years, while Odom's ceiling is of a role player. I think this was the previous argument, no? That's all I have. If you still want to overrate Odom, go ahead.

[DMAVS41]

I wasn't comparing Bosh to Bird. I was using Bird to show you that the impact/level of play is separated from stats. Seems like you got it.

So now you can stop saying Odom=Bosh just because they have similar stats. Bosh's ceiling is that of an all star starter who led his own team for 7 years, while Odom's ceiling is of a role player. I think this was the previous argument, no? That's all I have. If you still want to overrate Odom, go ahead.

it matters what the players do in their roles.

and it's a horrible analogy because Bosh doesn't do anything without his touches other than space the floor. he doesn't defend well. he's not versatile. he doesn't rebound well. he's not tough...etc. he doesn't do anything other than shoot and score. which is fine...Dirk is my favorite player ever. you could replace Bosh with Dirk and I'd be saying roughly the same things. Dirk would just be better at it than Bosh because he's a better shooter, rebounder, passer, and defender. But the main point would remain. A 3rd option Dirk getting limited touches and minutes simply doesn't have the impact in that role that would warrant referencing him as a former MVP and 27 ppg playoff averages.

A guy like Odom is better suited to play that role...he does a few more things without the ball than either of those guys. He's a better defender...etc. Clearly Dirk would be better leading a team. But turning Dirk into a 3rd option playing 30 minutes and only taking 11 shots per game with limited touches? He's just not going to be any more impactful than Odom was in that role.

You seem to think Bosh does things he really doesn't. Imagine Melo only taking 11 shots a game. Sorry..he isn't really melo then. His impact drops dramatically. He doesn't do anything other than score. Similar to Bosh. Now, if it was a guy like Lebron or prime Kobe...those guys could take 11 shots and still have a huge impact because of how great they were on defense and passing..etc. Pippen is a great example of this.

What Bosh did in Toronto means he'd be more able to fill in the 2nd option role if need be. But that isn't what we are tlaking about. We are talking about them as 3rd options...and there just isn't much of a difference. Or at least there hasn't been last year and this year so far in the playoffs.

It's why you would never put Nash, Iverson, Melo, Dirk..on the same team.

Yea, they are all great. But what the hell are any of them really bringing to the table without the ball in their hands other than floor spacing? Nash and Melo are especially worthless on that team. I swear this is why so many GM's can't build quality teams. they don't think about diminishing returns or the role players will actually have to play.

it's why you don't put iverson and melo on the same team.

[TonyMontana]

You're getting the impact part wrong, as you depend too much on stats.
Let me tell you, stats and level of play are 2 different things. Isn't that what we established? Didnt you agree with me above?

Let me give you a clearer example. Let's say Larry Bird averages the same stats as Odom(say 19/8) while playing in olympics with MJ and Magic. Are you going to tell me his impact was just the same as someone like Odom? That he played at same level as Odom?

The impact of a player and level of play isn't shown by the stats. A player can continue to play at his level, even though his stats suffer from having star teammates.

Basically, Bosh can still be playing at his toronto level while the stats doesn't show. Odom? he's never reached that level. When has he ever led a team? His ceiling is a roleplayer, and he hit that ceiling.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Comparing Bosh to Bird? Larry Bird was one of the greatest players in NBA History. The best non point guard passer of all-time. Of course his impact goes beyond the stats.

What I want to ask is what does Bosh contribute that can't be seen on the stats? He isn't a great defensive player, he isn't a great rebounder. Miami can't go to him in the post. What does this guy do that the stats don't show? On Miami he is essentially a pick and pop shooter from the high post. I know you won't answer this btw so just add this to the chalkboard as another time where you've been thoroughly embarassed.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bosh and Amare couldn't do it based on what exactly? Production? Efficiency? Jump shooting ability? Those 3 assists per game? You can replace Gasol with any all star big men from the West Coast during that team or even potentially a handful of "almost" all stars.

Neither had anywhere near the post game Gasol does, and especially did. Both were significantly smaller and inferior rebounders, neither could pass nearly as well, especially Amare and neither could play center nearly as well as Gasol.

Plus, Gasol clearly played better than either did in 2009 and 2010. How on earth anyone thinks Gasol could be replaced by either of them on those teams is beyond me. Imagine an Amare/Odom PF/C duo in 2009. Amare wasn't even having a very good year before the detached retina, but that's another issue. But even an Odom/Bosh PF/C duo in the West.

What a joke. But it's obvious I'm talking to someone who simply doesn't know basketball because you have to be incredibly stupid to evaluate Gasol's passing ability based on assists.

There's no way I can see someone objectively coming to the conclusion either of those players could have replaced Gasol during those back to back years. I'm more than willing to hear someone try to make a convincing case, now I know Yao Ming's Foot is incapable of doing that, so if anyone else wants to give it a shot, feel free to argue with me.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Comparing Bosh to Bird? Larry Bird was one of the greatest players in NBA History. The best non point guard passer of all-time. Of course his impact goes beyond the stats.

What I want to ask is what does Bosh contribute that can't be seen on the stats? He isn't a great defensive player, he isn't a great rebounder. Miami can't go to him in the post. What does this guy do that the stats don't show? On Miami he is essentially a pick and pop shooter from the high post. I know you won't answer this btw so just add this to the chalkboard as another time where you've been thoroughly embarassed.

He spaces the floor. Which is very valuable. But it's not like you could just let Odom should wide open shots either. He's also a good pick and roll player like you said.

But yea...he does nothing of note outside of his stats. Which is why it is so absurd to pretend that he's doing something that Odom didn't do in his role on the Lakers.

They essentially put up the same stats...and Odom brings more to the table off the stat sheet. Hence their impact being about the same.

But oh no...because Bosh made the all star team...it's different. :facepalm

[Quizno]

lebron beat some pretty legendary teams in the playoffs during his time with the cavs. on his way to the finals, get this - lebron had to defeat the legendary washington wizards without their two worst players, gilbert arenas and caron butler, to bring them down. keep in mind this is a wizards team that managed a whole 41 wins. yes, they won as many games as they lost and lebron still found a way to will his team to victory!!! :eek: :eek:

then he had to go through the nets. yes, the same nets team that also won a whole 41 games. they also won as many games as they lost and lebron BEAT THEM!!!

when lebron went up against a real team from the west he got swept in a joke series that really wasn't even competitive

anyway, lebron is a GOAT candidate but you can't act like the east even compares to the west. that's a joke :oldlol:

[alleykat]

u make a lot of threads about kobe dude....

[uoykcuf]

it matters what the players do in their roles.

and it's a horrible analogy because Bosh doesn't do anything without his touches other than space the floor. he doesn't defend well. he's not versatile. he doesn't rebound well. he's not tough...etc. he doesn't do anything other than shoot and score. which is fine...Dirk is my favorite player ever. you could replace Bosh with Dirk and I'd be saying roughly the same things. Dirk would just be better at it than Bosh because he's a better shooter, rebounder, passer, and defender. But the main point would remain. A 3rd option Dirk getting limited touches and minutes simply doesn't have the impact in that role that would warrant referencing him as a former MVP and 27 ppg playoff averages.

A guy like Odom is better suited to play that role...he does a few more things without the ball than either of those guys. He's a better defender...etc. Clearly Dirk would be better leading a team. But turning Dirk into a 3rd option playing 30 minutes and only taking 11 shots per game with limited touches? He's just not going to be any more impactful than Odom was in that role.

You seem to think Bosh does things he really doesn't. Imagine Melo only taking 11 shots a game. Sorry..he isn't really melo then. His impact drops dramatically. He doesn't do anything other than score. Similar to Bosh. Now, if it was a guy like Lebron or prime Kobe...those guys could take 11 shots and still have a huge impact because of how great they were on defense and passing..etc. Pippen is a great example of this.

What Bosh did in Toronto means he'd be more able to fill in the 2nd option role if need be. But that isn't what we are tlaking about. We are talking about them as 3rd options...and there just isn't much of a difference. Or at least there hasn't been last year and this year so far in the playoffs.

It's why you would never put Nash, Iverson, Melo, Dirk..on the same team.

Yea, they are all great. But what the hell are any of them really bringing to the table without the ball in their hands other than floor spacing? Nash and Melo are especially worthless on that team. I swear this is why so many GM's can't build quality teams. they don't think about diminishing returns or the role players will actually have to play.

it's why you don't put iverson and melo on the same team.

:applause: :applause: You make very good points, sir. Btw, this Ripkik kid reminds me of the song Bullet with Butterfly Wings by The Smashing Pumpkins. "Despite all his rage he's still just a rat in a cage." :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Neither had anywhere near the post game Gasol does, and especially did. Both were significantly smaller and inferior rebounders, neither could pass nearly as well, especially Amare and neither could play center nearly as well as Gasol.

Plus, Gasol clearly played better than either did in 2009 and 2010. How on earth anyone thinks Gasol could be replaced by either of them on those teams is beyond me. Imagine an Amare/Odom PF/C duo in 2009. Amare wasn't even having a very good year before the detached retina, but that's another issue. But even an Odom/Bosh PF/C duo in the West.

What a joke. But it's obvious I'm talking to someone who simply doesn't know basketball because you have to be incredibly stupid to evaluate Gasol's passing ability based on assists.

There's no way I can see someone objectively coming to the conclusion either of those players could have replaced Gasol during those back to back years. I'm more than willing to hear someone try to make a convincing case, now I know Yao Ming's Foot is incapable of doing that, so if anyone else wants to give it a shot, feel free to argue with me.

Where did you get the impression that by the Lakers were forced to play the same exact way when exchanging the 2006 2nd team Center or 2007 2nd team PF for the 2008 3rd team Center?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He spaces the floor. Which is very valuable. But it's not like you could just let Odom should wide open shots either. :facepalm

You could if you think subbing in a guy who shoots 33% on jumpshots is as good as a couple of guys who shoot 44% and 45%.

*2009-10

:facepalm

[LakersRule24]

Dirk without a HOF teammate: 2011 NBA championship
Iverson without a HOF teammate: 2001 NBA Finals
Nash without a HOF teammate: 2006 WC Finals
Jordan without a HOF teammate: 1st round exit

Dirk>Iverson>Lebron>Nash>Gasol>Jordan=Kobe

[Straight_Ballin]

Remind me why we are talking about Kobe again? He's on his way out and his team is about to be swept, with empty seats. Classless Laker fans that refuse to show up to games and that they've already paid for simply because Kobe is injured. They need a role model like Jack Nicholson.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/JackNicholsonMar10.jpg/220px-JackNicholsonMar10.jpg

[Straight_Ballin]

Dirk without a HOF teammate: 2011 NBA championship
Iverson without a HOF teammate: 2001 NBA Finals
Nash without a HOF teammate: 2006 WC Finals
Jordan without a HOF teammate: 1st round exit

Dirk>Iverson>Lebron>Nash>Gasol>Jordan=Kobe

Jordan's case is completely different. Jordan personally developed Pippen into a HOF level player. Worked with him on every aspect of his game over and over and over again until Pippen evolved. No other player could have done for Pippen what Jordan did for him and Pippen would not be in the HOF had he not been under Jordan's leadership. Real talk.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Where did you get the impression that by the Lakers were forced to play the same exact way when exchanging the 2006 2nd team Center or 2007 2nd team PF for the 2008 3rd team Center?

The Lakers played in the triangle offense where passing and post play is quite important, and aside from Kobe, their other big advantage was their length and size inside. That's lost without Gasol, and in fact, either Amare or Bosh paired with Odom probably makes them vulnerable inside and lacking in post play. Gasol is also a much smarter player than Amare(and I like Amare) which would be huge in the triangle.

Not to mention that Pau was flat out better those 2 years than either of them.

[Crafty]

Dirk without a HOF teammate: 2011 NBA championship
Iverson without a HOF teammate: 2001 NBA Finals
Nash without a HOF teammate: 2006 WC Finals
Jordan without a HOF teammate: 1st round exit

Dirk>Iverson>Lebron>Nash>Gasol>Jordan=Kobe
So, you think Jason Kidd doesn't belong in HOF?

[DMAVS41]

You could if you think subbing in a guy who shoots 33% on jumpshots is as good as a couple of guys who shoot 44% and 45%.

*2009-10

:facepalm

What?

Bosh is a better shooter. Would anyone ever dispute that? I simply said it's not like you can just leave Odom open...which you can't.

I'm still waiting to hear something tangible as to why Bosh should be considered a superstar for averaging 14/8/1 while Odom isn't worth mentioning at 11/9/2 (while having a bigger impact without the ball..etc)

Makes no sense now. Won't ever make sense.

It's called diminishing returns and logic. And, by the way, even with your Bird example...a limited Bird is still a limited Bird. You still aren't getting his full impact. But where you lose your mind is thinking that Bosh does anything outside of his stats that represent something of a superstar that Odom didn't do as well or better.

:facepalm

A guy like prime Artest would fill the 3rd option role very well on a team. Give him 10 or 11 shots and let him excel at everything else he does. You don't lose his impact at all really...at least much less than you do with a guy like Bosh playing 3rd option. Artest would give you all nba defense with the ability to guard everyone but centers...etc.

Because he impacts the game in many more ways other than just on offense. With Bosh, you have a guy who's impact is essentially what you have in the stat sheet and floor spacing. Bosh isn't the go to clutch player. He's not a best defensively or on the glass. He is what he is. And right now that is a great 3rd option marginally, if at all, more impactful than Odom. What he did on Toronto has no bearing in this discussion.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What?

Bosh is a better shooter. Would anyone ever dispute that? I simply said it's not like you can just leave Odom open...which you can't.

I'm still waiting to hear something tangible as to why Bosh should be considered a superstar for averaging 14/8/1 while Odom isn't worth mentioning at 11/9/2 (while having a bigger impact without the ball..etc)

Makes no sense now. Won't ever make sense.

It's called diminishing returns and logic. And, by the way, even with your Bird example...a limited Bird is still a limited Bird. You still aren't getting his full impact. But where you lose your mind is thinking that Bosh does anything outside of his stats that represent something of a superstar that Odom didn't do as well or better.

:facepalm

You can leave Odom open. He hits about 33% of his jumpshots. The D will give him that all day. Most of those shot attempts were wide open.

I can't explain the context of the conversation any better than I already have.


This is how...

1. Gasol is not a superstar
2. Well he is a HOFer that means he is a superstar
3. Bosh is a HOFer too that must mean he is a superstar also
4. Well Odom had a "decent chance" to make an all star team once in 04
5. That doesn't make him a superstar
6. Well he put 11/9
7. That's a great roleplayer
8. Well he plays defense
9. Still a roleplayer

:confusedshrug:




You are missing half of the conversation.

Gasol was labeled a superstar and the reasoning provided to us is that he was a future HOFer.
We pointed out that with that definition Bosh is also a "superstar".

Why would I mention Odom in that specific conversation? He doesn't have a chance of making the HOF thus earning "superstar" status.

I didn't make the Bird comparison, just like I never left out Odom in the first place. There are more than one poster on these boards. Not all of us waste our time with pathetic alt accounts. :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The Lakers played in the triangle offense where passing and post play is quite important, and aside from Kobe, their other big advantage was their length and size inside. That's lost without Gasol, and in fact, either Amare or Bosh paired with Odom probably makes them vulnerable inside and lacking in post play. Gasol is also a much smarter player than Amare(and I like Amare) which would be huge in the triangle.

Not to mention that Pau was flat out better those 2 years than either of them.

Once again why do you assume that the Lakers are forced to jam Amare or Bosh into Gasol's role instead of adjusting the team overall to make use of their superior athleticism, range and scoring ability?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Once again why do you assume that the Lakers are forced to jam Amare or Bosh into Gasol's role instead of adjusting the team overall to make use of their superior athleticism, range and scoring ability?

Yeah, I'd really prefer an inferior player who gives you a little more versatility at the expense of post play, rebounding, defense and passing. :rolleyes:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yeah, I'd really prefer an inferior player who gives you a little more versatility at the expense of post play, rebounding, defense and passing. :rolleyes:

Bosh was actually the better rebounder. Amare more efficient. Both also took on more of the offensive role. The idea that Pau Gasol's defense is what separates him from these guys is comical. At best he was an average defender. The only thing that would push Pau over them was his postseason team success with Kobe. :confusedshrug:

http://bkref.com/tiny/MLXZq

[PickernRoller]

2009? He was injured pretty much the entire second half and out for the entire playoffs. 2010? He simply wasn't good enough.



The easiest to compare, and one I could see. Though Duncan was getting worn out late in the season around this time and already not playing the minutes Gasol was.



In terms of impact, probably, but unsure if he's as good of a fit. It's possible, so I'll grant you this one as well.



A Dirk/Odom big man duo in 2009? I don't see that working. 2010? Possible with Bynum able to give a little more, but he doesn't fit as well as Gasol and the Lakers didn't have an easy time as it is.

If the scenario is simply Dirk replacing Gasol with nothing else changing, I'm saying no to this one, but even if I conceded this, Dirk was an elite player and will be a first ballot Hall of famer who led his team to a title the year after.



Went down in the 2009 playiffs with essentially a career-ending injury and didn't play at all in 2010.



:roll:



:roll:

So you named one of the greatest players of all-time Duncan, who was still a top 10-15 range player and Dwight who was a top 5 player at the time as the valid choices. Even if I grant you Dirk, he was a top 5 type player at the time as well.

So what's your point? That a hall of fame big man or a superstar big man could have won in Pau's place?

Lol you don't have to grant me anything. Your point is overrated - simple as that. At the point of departure, 08 - those would have been with Kobe on the finals 3 times in a row. A hypothetical of sorts, sure, just like saying a "few" is a BIG hypothetical. Gasol was great, but lets not build him altar and preach him to death. There were other great bigs in the league atm. As a matter of fact, people did not even though that a Gasol/Kobe duo would achieve that much of a success until it actually happened. Due to the simple fact that there were better players out there, bigs included to pair Kobe. But it's not my intention to engage in arguments cause this does not provide any worthy discussion. The "few" label just isn't true, which is my point.

[TonyMontana]

Bosh was actually the better rebounder. Amare more efficient. Both also took on more of the offensive role. The idea that Pau Gasol's defense is what separates him from these guys is comical. At best he was an average defender. The only thing that would push Pau over them was his postseason success with Kobe. :confusedshrug:

http://bkref.com/tiny/MLXZq

Yo Lee, time to put the calculator down and actually analyze the games.

Gasol brings superior low post scoring, passing, shot blocking, and defense. He is the best rebounder of the three, Boshs numbers are inflated because he played with ****ing Andrea Bargnani, probably the worst rebounding 7 footer in the history of the game. It's no surprise Toronto was one of the worst rebounding teams while LA was one of the best. (Hint: It wasn't because of Kobe). Bosh doesn't even get more rebounds than LeBron while playing together and he is the center.

None of those bigs would be remotely as successful as Gasol in the triangle where his skillset was a perfect match. When you actually understand what the triangle is(of course you don't, your a casual whos never played the game in their life) then you can see why it was so great for Gasol.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yo Lee, time to put the calculator down and actually analyze the games.

Gasol brings superior low post scoring, passing, shot blocking, and defense. He is the best rebounder of the three, Boshs numbers are inflated because he played with ****ing Andrea Bargnani, probably the worst rebounding 7 footer in the history of the game. It's no surprise Toronto was one of the worst rebounding teams while LA was one of the best. (Hint: It wasn't because of Kobe). Bosh doesn't even get more rebounds than LeBron while playing together and he is the center.

None of those bigs would be remotely as successful as Gasol in the triangle where his skillset was a perfect match. When you actually understand what the triangle is(of course you don't, your a casual whos never played the game in their life) then you can see why it was so great for Gasol.

Gasol's efficiency numbers are inflated since he played with Kobe .
His rebounding numbers are inflated since Bynum was injured.
:confusedshrug:

Once again there is nothing forcing Kobe+Bosh/Amare to use the same exact system that worked for Kobe/Pau with Bosh/Amare playing the same exact role.

[TonyMontana]

Gasol's efficiency numbers are inflated since he played with Kobe .
His rebounding numbers are inflated since Bynum was injured.
:confusedshrug:

Once again there is nothing forcing Kobe+Bosh/Amare to use the same exact system that worked for Kobe/Pau with Bosh/Amare playing the same exact role.

Do you even understand what the triangle offense is?

I'd love to hear your explanation of it. Since your online right now I expect a timely reply.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Do you even understand what the triangle offense is?

I'd love to hear your explanation of it. Since your online right now I expect a timely reply.

No. I don't understand. Explain it to me like I'm DMAVS fake brother.

[TonyMontana]

No. I don't understand.

Didn't think so. Guess basketball-reference doesn't have a column for that. :oldlol:

[KingBeasley08]

Didn't think so. Guess basketball-reference doesn't have a column for that. :oldlol:
All Lee knows is math. Great skill to have if you're a math major but just makes you come off as an idiot if you're on a basketball forum :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Didn't think so. Guess basketball-reference doesn't have a column for that. :oldlol:

I kept looking for the stat that shows the percentage of triangle offences that won titles with worse passing skills than Odom-Bosh/Amare but couldn't find it. Who knew Luc Longly and Bill Cartwright were such passing maestros though? :oldlol:

[KingBeasley08]

I kept looking for the stat that shows the percentage of triangle offences that won titles with worse passing skills than Odom-Bosh/Amare but couldn't find it. Who knew Luc Longly and Bill Cartwright were such passing maestros though? :oldlol:
There's our problem. If you played basketball at any level, you'd know the answers you're looking for.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

There's our problem. If you played basketball at any level, you'd know the answers you're looking for.

I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. I just haven't see you present anything worth responding to. Outside of being a creepy cheerleader to your "bros" I have no idea why you even post.

[KingBeasley08]

I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. I just haven't see you present anything worth responding to. Outside of being a creepy cheerleader to your "bros" I have no idea why you even post.
It's a serious statement. I'm sorry if I'm upsetting you but that's just the truth

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's a serious statement. I'm sorry if I'm upsetting you but that's just the truth

To upset me I would have to respect your opinion. I don't respect you. :confusedshrug:

[PickernRoller]

To upset me I would have to respect your opinion. I don't respect you. :confusedshrug:

:lol :lol :lol Don't do him like that. You realize ISH is all they got?

[TonyMontana]

All Lee knows is math. Great skill to have if you're a math major but just makes you come off as an idiot if you're on a basketball forum :lol


There's our problem. If you played basketball at any level, you'd know the answers you're looking for.

:D :D :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bosh was actually the better rebounder. Amare more efficient. Both also took on more of the offensive role. The idea that Pau Gasol's defense is what separates him from these guys is comical. At best he was an average defender. The only thing that would push Pau over them was his postseason team success with Kobe. :confusedshrug:

http://bkref.com/tiny/MLXZq

How the **** was Bosh the better rebounder? Bosh averaged 10 rpg and 2.8 offensive rebounds in '09 on a terrible rebounding team that was outrebounded by 1.5 rpg, while Gasol averaged 9.6 rpg and 3.2 offensive rebounds on a very good rebounding team that outrebounded opponents by 2.5 rpg. In 2010, Bosh averaged 10.8 rpg and 2.9 offensive rebounds on a poor rebounding team again(-0.9 rpg) while Gasol averaged 11.3 rpg and 3.7 offensive boards on another good rebounding team(+2.1 rpg)

Amare was more efficient playing off of Nash, and I could really care less. He was a face up and screen/roll big man who was a below average passer. Gasol was even the better offensive player during those years.

Besides, Gasol was more efficient than Amare in '09. Hell, 2009 Amare was arguably not even playing as well as a 37 year old Shaq even prior to his detached retina. He was also a mediocre rebounder and defender as usual.

Amare averaged a piss poor 6.6 rebounds during the Suns 2009 playoff run. Gasol averaged 11 during both of the Laker championship runs.

It's amazing that a Kobe fanboy can't even give Gasol his credit even when the person they're arguing about is not holding that argument against Kobe at all, or even mentioning Kobe in the argument.

It's truly pathetic.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How the **** was Bosh the better rebounder? Bosh averaged 10 rpg and 2.8 offensive rebounds in '09 on a terrible rebounding team that was outrebounded by 1.5 rpg, while Gasol averaged 9.6 rpg and 3.2 offensive rebounds on a very good rebounding team that outrebounded opponents by 2.5 rpg. In 2010, Bosh averaged 10.8 rpg and 2.9 offensive rebounds on a poor rebounding team again(-0.9 rpg) while Gasol averaged 11.3 rpg and 3.7 offensive boards on another good rebounding team(+2.1 rpg)

Amare was more efficient playing off of Nash, and I could really care less. He was a face up and screen/roll big man who was a below average passer. Gasol was even the better offensive player during those years.

Besides, Gasol was more efficient than Amare in '09. Hell, 2009 Amare was arguably not even playing as well as a 37 year old Shaq even prior to his detached retina. He was also a mediocre rebounder and defender as usual.

Amare averaged a piss poor 6.6 rebounds during the Suns 2009 playoff run. Gasol averaged 11 during both of the Laker championship runs.

It's amazing that a Kobe fanboy can't even give Gasol his credit even when the person they're arguing about is not holding that argument against Kobe at all, or even mentioning Kobe in the argument.

It's truly pathetic.

Kobe has nothing to do with Bosh's rebounding % being higher than Gasol's in 2010. You write a lot to say very little.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe has nothing to do with Bosh's rebounding % being higher than Gasol's in 2010. You write a lot to say very little.

Just because you don't have the mental capacity to process what I say and come up with a decent rebuttal doesn't mean I'm saying little. In fact, I've made a very strong case for why there's no reasonable reason to believe Amare or Bosh could have replaced Gasol. And you have yet to counter any of it.

Bosh's rebounding % was slightly better playing on a bad rebounding team with Bargnani than Gasol's was playing on a good rebounding team with Odom and Bynum.

Besides, anyone with a brain who watched both of them could tell Gasol was stronger on the boards. Just imagine Bosh coming up with 19/18 vs Boston in game 7. The thought of this is even being remotely plausible is actually really funny.

[TheBigVeto]

We'll go with their best years without a hall of fame teammate which ironically enough was 05-06 for both of them(Gasol emerged as an all-star and Kobe had his 35 PPG season and 81 point game). None of them had any hall of famers on their team during these stints. Who led their team to more wins?

Pau Gasol without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 49-33(.598) L Round 1

Kobe Bryant without a hall of fame Teammate
05-06: 45-37(.548) L Round 1

Just for good measure I'll throw in LeBron since Kobe fans are obsessed with him.

LeBron James without a hall of fame teammate
06-07: 50-32(.601) L Finals
08-09: 66-16( .805) L ECF

So looks like according to the logic of needing as little talent as possible as teammates LeBron > Gasol > Kobe. Without having another hall of famer on the team Kobe cant win more than 45 games or a series.

And this, is The Honest Truth!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Svendiggity]

Gasol is a High IQ player that sets good screens, rebounds well, and has quick feet to stay in front of most of the guys he guards. He can score just as well as Bosh and accepts his role as a secondary option.

His game meshes well with Kobe's, I don't care what either of them do or did without eachother. Gasol is better than Bosh.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Just because you don't have the mental capacity to process what I say and come up with a decent rebuttal doesn't mean I'm saying little. In fact, I've made a very strong case for why there's no reasonable reason to believe Amare or Bosh could have replaced Gasol. And you have yet to counter any of it.

Bosh's rebounding % was slightly better playing on a bad rebounding team with Bargnani than Gasol's was playing on a good rebounding team with Odom and Bynum.

Besides, anyone with a brain who watched both of them could tell Gasol was stronger on the boards. Just imagine Bosh coming up with 19/18 vs Boston in game 7. The thought of this is even being remotely plausible is actually really funny.

This is another example. 126 words of nothing. I've read probably hundreds of juvenile insults on these boards but yours are by far the most verbose and boring. Bosh had 16/15 @ Oklahoma in Game 2 in the Finals just last year. :confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Just because you don't have the mental capacity to process what I say and come up with a decent rebuttal doesn't mean I'm saying little. In fact, I've made a very strong case for why there's no reasonable reason to believe Amare or Bosh could have replaced Gasol. And you have yet to counter any of it.

Bosh's rebounding % was slightly better playing on a bad rebounding team with Bargnani than Gasol's was playing on a good rebounding team with Odom and Bynum.

Besides, anyone with a brain who watched both of them could tell Gasol was stronger on the boards. Just imagine Bosh coming up with 19/18 vs Boston in game 7. The thought of this is even being remotely plausible is actually really funny.
I don't know about bosh, but Amare definitely could've fit into LA and been he second option beside kobe with Lamar and Bynum backing them up.

Amare is a 23/9, 52 FG player in the playoffs.. He went up against prime pau in a series head to head in 2010 and dropped 24/6 on pau. Amare has evenly played to Duncan in playoff series. He's actually one of the more underrated PFs in is prime. High post him with kobe? That a shit load of scoring and athleticism in the half court with length coming from two other quality big guys. They are still right there as favorites every year.

[Goldrush25]

I'm sorry but why does this freaking matter? Both are great players. Kobe wasn't going to win without Gasol and Gasol wasn't going to win without Kobe. Who cares who was "more valuable?"

[PickernRoller]

I don't know about bosh, but Amare definitely could've fit into LA and been he second option beside kobe with Lamar and Bynum backing them up.

Amare is a 23/9, 52 FG player in the playoffs.. He went up against prime pau in a series head to head in 2010 and dropped 24/6 on pau. Amare has evenly played to Duncan in playoff series. He's actually one of the more underrated PFs in is prime. High post him with kobe? That a shit load of scoring and athleticism in the half court with length coming from two other quality big guys. They are still right there as favorites every year.

People get carried away with the results Kobe and Pau delivered and it's an easy escape route (point of argument) to trash every other option that was available at the time because it was never tried - a hypothetical. Case in point ShaqAttacks opinion. Not saying the insight might be wrong, the point is just misguided - a hypothetical. But ask anyone if they expected Pau to deliver the stats/results before he was traded from Memphis and with a 100% degree of certainty they would not have known. Probably, as most at the time, if given the option, would have chosen other players instead of Pau to pair with Kobe. It would be an insult to say the trade wasn't a surprise among other candidates. So, engaging in an argument about this is not only foolish, it's also pathetic for anyone who thinks they're part of the "winning" side.

Pau's great, end of story. Other players were also great, and with Kobe Bryant at their side, most would have had great results - a hypothetical like Pau was once. Everything starts at that point - 0.

[Svendiggity]

I'm sorry but why does this freaking matter? Both are great players. Kobe wasn't going to win without Gasol and Gasol wasn't going to win without Kobe. Who cares who was "more valuable?"
this

[CAstill]

Both players could of replaced Pau and netted championships.
IMO I think Bosh would of been the better fit and would of put
up a better fight against 08 Celtics as a second option.
Pau is great but facts are facts he has never won a playoff
game without Kobe and that shouldn't be true if he was a HOF.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is another example. 126 words of nothing. I've read probably hundreds of juvenile insults on these boards but yours are by far the most verbose and boring. Bosh had 16/15 @ Oklahoma in Game 2 in the Finals just last year. :confusedshrug:

Right, because that game was really as physical as the Boston game or as big of a moment. 19/18 vs a better, more physical team in game 7 of the finals is clearly a step above. I'm not resorting to juvenile insults, I'm merely picking apart every pathetic attempt you make to diminish Kobe's teammates.


I don't know about bosh, but Amare definitely could've fit into LA and been he second option beside kobe with Lamar and Bynum backing them up.

Amare is a 23/9, 52 FG player in the playoffs.. He went up against prime pau in a series head to head in 2010 and dropped 24/6 on pau. Amare has evenly played to Duncan in playoff series. He's actually one of the more underrated PFs in is prime. High post him with kobe? That a shit load of scoring and athleticism in the half court with length coming from two other quality big guys. They are still right there as favorites every year.

Bynum could barely contribute during the 2009 playoffs. Pretty much every game it looked like he could barely move, he'd pick up 2 fouls within a few minutes, Lamar would come in and you'd end up forgetting Bynum had even played. I don't see Amare picking up the slack as the team's center, and now the team has no low post post player.

Again, downgrading from Pau's passing to Amare's in the triangle really hurts as well. Plus, Pau is a really good scorer himself, but has the all around game which makes him a better 2nd option than Amare as well, imo. Amare won't be in a position to score much more than Pau anyway with that team.

I like Amare, but Phil Jackson himself didn't like Amare's game, it was a big reason he didn't seriously consider the Knicks job when it probably could have been his. It's not that Amare is a bad player, but I believe it's because his game doesn't seem like a good fit for the triangle. I've actually been a big fan of him since he came to the Knicks, but in the interest of complete objectivity, I don't see them winning a title with him in Gasol's place.

Bynum was at least able to be a solid role player during the 2010 playoffs so there's a better chance of Amare in Gasol's place being less of an issue as far as size and defense, but the Lakers didn't breeze through those playoffs. They even really struggled with OKC since Kobe wasn't himself until he got his knee drained and Pau was the MVP of that series. I think people are really underrating Pau in this thread. He then averaged 24/15/3/3, 61%, 87 FT% vs Utah, and if the finals had come down to a tight game 7 vs Boston, is Amare rebounding like Pau did? I seriously doubt it.

[DMAVS41]

Lol you don't have to grant me anything. Your point is overrated - simple as that. At the point of departure, 08 - those would have been with Kobe on the finals 3 times in a row. A hypothetical of sorts, sure, just like saying a "few" is a BIG hypothetical. Gasol was great, but lets not build him altar and preach him to death. There were other great bigs in the league atm. As a matter of fact, people did not even though that a Gasol/Kobe duo would achieve that much of a success until it actually happened. Due to the simple fact that there were better players out there, bigs included to pair Kobe. But it's not my intention to engage in arguments cause this does not provide any worthy discussion. The "few" label just isn't true, which is my point.

Only because so few people knew anything about Gasol in the first place. Honestly, how many Grizzlies games were you watching a year from 01 through 07? Very few...just like most people.

Anyone that watched Gasol closely knew what kind of player he was...and knew what a 20/10 big man with elite passing skills playing next to Kobe and Odom would be...with Phil Jackson coaching.

Nobody knew? I guess that is why Pop wanted the trade reversed...LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE]Right, because that game was really as physical as the Boston game or as big of a moment. 19/18 vs a better, more physical team in game 7 of the finals is clearly a step above. I'm not resorting to juvenile insults, I'm merely picking apart every pathetic attempt you make to diminish Kobe's teammates.

Its not diminishing Pau to say he was on par with a couple of other contemporary all NBA- all star players. Bosh is a future HOFer as would Amare be if he had remained healthy.

Pau Gasol's Game 7 TRB% 22.0

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html

Chris Bosh's Game 2 TRB% 23.5
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206140OKC.html

:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

I don't know about bosh, but Amare definitely could've fit into LA and been he second option beside kobe with Lamar and Bynum backing them up.

Amare is a 23/9, 52 FG player in the playoffs.. He went up against prime pau in a series head to head in 2010 and dropped 24/6 on pau. Amare has evenly played to Duncan in playoff series. He's actually one of the more underrated PFs in is prime. High post him with kobe? That a shit load of scoring and athleticism in the half court with length coming from two other quality big guys. They are still right there as favorites every year.

I think the statement..."right there as favorites every year" is probably accurate. I don't think they get it done without the length and size either year of Gasol though. Certainly not in 2010 in my opinion.

But I readily admit my bias against Amare. Don't think he's a winning type player. Never did. Horrible on defense. Not a good rebounder in tough situations. Not great creating his own shot consistently.

If Gasol was called Gasoft...I don't know the hell you call softies like Bosh and Amare. Nobody knows what would have happened, but my best guess is that it would have been a disaster watching Amare/Bosh go up against the likes of Howard in the 09 finals...and the Celtics in 2010.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Only because so few people knew anything about Gasol in the first place. Honestly, how many Grizzlies games were you watching a year from 01 through 07? Very few...just like most people.

Anyone that watched Gasol closely knew what kind of player he was...and knew what a 20/10 big man with elite passing skills playing next to Kobe and Odom would be...with Phil Jackson coaching.

Nobody knew? I guess that is why Pop wanted the trade reversed...LOL

Yeah, do people forget the trade was huge news even before anyone knew just how good LA would be with Pau? Or how many teams were chasing after Pau. The Bulls really wanted him, iirc.

Pau was already viewed as a very good player, but it's not unusual to be an underrated in a small market when you're not a first tier superstar like Durant or Lebron. Add that in with being a 27 year old just approaching his peak, being in a role that suits him better(as well as many players who are forced into the first option role, but will never win anything in that role) and having a great coach and Pau's success really isn't surprising. Of course, Pau played off of Kobe quite well, and benefited from the defensive attention Kobe received, though that kind of goes hand in hand with being able to be a second option.


[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]

Its not diminishing Pau to say he was on par with a couple of other contemporary all NBA- all star players. Bosh is a future HOFer as would Amare be if he had remained healthy.

Pau Gasol's Game 7 TRB% 22.0

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html

Chris Bosh's Game 2 TRB% 23.5
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201206140OKC.html

:confusedshrug:

:oldlol: That's all you can do is look at stats. This is why it's such a waste of time arguing with you. Only reason I'm doing it is that idiotic statements to promote an agenda annoy me. Just like your statement before that Bosh was a better rebounder than Pau because he had a slightly better TRB% without even considering the team's they played on or the big men they played next to(Bargnani.... :roll: )

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, do people forget the trade was huge news even before anyone knew just how good LA would be with Pau? Or how many teams were chasing after Pau. The Bulls really wanted him, iirc.

Pau was already viewed as a very good player, but it's not unusual to be an underrated in a small market when you're not a first tier superstar like Durant or Lebron. Add that in with being a 27 year old just approaching his peak, being in a role that suits him better(as well as many players who are forced into the first option role, but will never win anything in that role) and having a great coach and Pau's success really isn't surprising. Of course, Pau played off of Kobe quite well, and benefited from the defensive attention Kobe received, though that kind of goes hand in hand with being able to be a second option.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: That's all you can do is look at stats. This is why it's such a waste of time arguing with you. Only reason I'm doing it is that idiotic statements to promote an agenda annoy me. Just like your statement before that Bosh was a better rebounder than Pau because he had a slightly better TRB% without even considering the team's they played on or the big men they played next to(Bargnani.... :roll: )

I tried to explain this to someone earlier. That trade was the equivalent of the Twolves shipping a healthy Kevin Love to the Nuggets for Mozgov and filler. People in NBA circles and anyone that followed Gasol here and internationally knew what kind of impact he would make.

Just because he wasn't a "big name" does not change reality. The Lakers got a "Love or Aldridge" type player for nothing. And now we have to revise history and pretend that an already very good team getting an elite player at a position they sorely needed to fill isn't going to make a big splash? GTFO clowns.

It's like people think it's easy to lead a team to 50 wins and the playoffs 3 times with what Gasol was working with.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Yeah, do people forget the trade was huge news even before anyone knew just how good LA would be with Pau? Or how many teams were chasing after Pau. The Bulls really wanted him, iirc.

Pau was already viewed as a very good player, but it's not unusual to be an underrated in a small market when you're not a first tier superstar like Durant or Lebron. Add that in with being a 27 year old just approaching his peak, being in a role that suits him better(as well as many players who are forced into the first option role, but will never win anything in that role) and having a great coach and Pau's success really isn't surprising. Of course, Pau played off of Kobe quite well, and benefited from the defensive attention Kobe received, though that kind of goes hand in hand with being able to be a second option.

:oldlol: That's all you can do is look at stats. This is why it's such a waste of time arguing with you. Only reason I'm doing it is that idiotic statements to promote an agenda annoy me. Just like your statement before that Bosh was a better rebounder than Pau because he had a slightly better TRB% without even considering the team's they played on or the big men they played next to(Bargnani.... :roll: )

Pau was on the trade market for years. The Bulls were "desperately" trying to trade for him since 2007.


Privately, the organization is growing dissatisfied with the effort Gasol has brought to work. The perception is that Gasol's lackadaisical defensive and rebounding performances coupled with inconsistent offense are by design to emphasize his desire for a trade.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2739345

Forgive me for bringing reality to the table. I'll let you get back to fantasy talk where you don't have to back up anything outside of false bravado.

:oldlol:

[PickernRoller]

Anyone that watched Gasol closely knew what kind of player he was...and knew what a 20/10 big man with elite passing skills playing next to Kobe and Odom would be...with Phil Jackson coaching.

Nobody knew? I guess that is why Pop wanted the trade reversed...LOL

I watched Gasol as much as most people back in those days. The times the Lakers played him, some highlight reels of important teams playing the Grizz etc.

Lol at the relevance of Pop cause he's Pop. Pop would have bitched if any other great big in the league at the time would have joined Kobe. KG - which was rumored. Pop could gladly sit and watch Duncan/Manu and Parker own the West those years with Kobe and some scrubs stagnating.

Kobe was the best player in the league atm and he knew what that would do the West and his Spurs fresh of a championship. Point being, eliminated that year, by the Lakers.

Just like the CP3 trade etc. Everytime Lakers acquire something big, b1tches complain everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's Pop - no relevance. Karl was b1tching about the Nash trade this summer.....any relevance?

The trade and the news was a surprise. The potential, regardless of Gasol or any other great big was there. It's Kobe Bryant/Phil that matters. Everything else is opinion, rumors and bla bla bla.

[crisoner]

Anyone saying LeBron had a bad team and teammates in Cleveland needs to stfu.

[DMAVS41]

I watched Gasol as much as most people back in those days. The times the Lakers played him, some highlight reels of important teams playing the Grizz etc.

Lol at the relevance of Pop cause he's Pop. Pop would have bitched if any other great big in the league at the time would have joined Kobe. KG - which was rumored. Pop could gladly sit and watch Duncan/Manu and Parker own the West those years with Kobe and some scrubs stagnating.

Kobe was the best player in the league atm and he knew what that would do the West and his Spurs fresh of a championship. Point being, eliminated that year, by the Lakers.

Just like the CP3 trade etc. Everytime Lakers acquire something big, b1tches complain everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's Pop - no relevance. Karl was b1tching about the Nash trade this summer.....any relevance?

The trade and the news was a surprise. The potential, regardless of Gasol or any other great big was there. It's Kobe Bryant/Phil that matters. Everything else is opinion, rumors and bla bla bla.

No. the point is that if Gasol was a nobody in NBA circles or just not a very good player. Nobody would have cared.

Do we really need to mention Kobe was the best player on the Lakers? That is obvious...and anyone refuting that is a moron. Stop talking to me like I'm on here claiming that Gasol was better than Kobe.

I think it's the opposite. Every time the Lakers get a player...he ends up "sucking" according to Kobe fans. Has there ever been a good player that has played along Kobe? Gasol sucked. Howard now sucks. Artest sucks. Nash sucks. Blake sucks. Barnes sucked. Odom sucks. I mean my god...that is the real pattern.

And the best part. You all flip flop so much. Once it became impossible to argue how good Gasol was...it then became..."oh yea, but Kobe made Gasol"...and this non sense about how Kobe makes everyone so much better.

Now you guys just resort to claiming all these proven NBA players just suck once they get to the Lakers...LOL

[PickernRoller]

I am not everyone. Lets get that clear. Flip flopping, you treat posters like it's them vs us? I find that pathetic. What is this a clan trying to win a battle? Lol. let me know where I flip flopped?

I have, in each of my post recognized Gasol as a "great big". I also supplied a list of great bigs that at the time hypothetically could have supplanted Gasol. Whether the results would have been the same - That of course is a HYPOTHETICAL. So, engaging in an Amare vs Gasol or Bosh vs. Gasol discussion as some have done here is fruitless - PERIOD. It's all HYPOTHETICALS. The only fact of the matter is that if you pair a great big next to Kobe Bryant - the results are going to be there period. Proven. So, is the big what matters or the actual pairing of a great big to prime Kobe Bryant?

[DMAVS41]

I am not everyone. Lets get that clear. Flip flopping, you treat posters like it's them vs us? I find that pathetic. What is this a clan trying to win a battle? Lol.

I have, in each of my post recognized Gasol as a "great big". I also supplied a list of great bigs at the time that hypothetically could have supplanted Gasol. Whether the results would have been the same - That is of course a HYPOTHETICAL. The only fact of the matter is that if you pair a great big next to a Kobe Bryant type of player - the results are going to be there period. So, is the big that matters or the actual pairing of a great big to a Kobe Bryant?

Both matter of course. And pairing Amare next to Kobe isn't going to make him grow and become a better defender, passer, and rebounder. Same thing with Bosh.

Look at Bosh playing next to Lebron and Wade. Has he transformed his defense and rebounding? Hell no he hasn't....it's been a marginal improvement at best.

But somehow playing with Kobe is going to turn him into something he isn't now...when his team needed it from him? Makes no sense.

[PickernRoller]

Both matter of course. And pairing Amare next to Kobe isn't going to make him grow and become a better defender, passer, and rebounder. Same thing with Bosh.

Look at Bosh playing next to Lebron and Wade. Has he transformed his defense and rebounding? Hell no he hasn't....it's been a marginal improvement at best.

But somehow playing with Kobe is going to turn him into something he isn't now...when his team needed it from him? Makes no sense.

Both matter as to the extent of the result - say 2 championships vs. 3. Shaq vs. Gasol. That's clear. I am talking about starting from point 0. You pair the two - you know the results will be there, no matter what - to which extent, unknown. So, you pair Amare with Kobe, results. You pair Bosh with Kobe, results. Multiple NBA finals - maybe not, maybe only one. Maybe MORE. You just don't know nor can't you guarantee to know.

Kobe didn't improve Gasol's softness (2008 loss - KG ate him) - how is "improvement" relevant? Each of those players bring something different. You can't just expect Amare or Bosh to play the same way Gasol plays in order to achieve the same result. Things are going to develop differently. Those players are different with different strenghs - in the realm of difference of course.

[DMAVS41]

Both matter as to the extent of the result - say 2 championships vs. 3. Shaq vs. Gasol. That's clear. I am talking about starting from point 0. You pair the two - you know the results will be there, no matter what - to which extent, unknown. So, you pair Amare with Kobe, results. You pair Bosh with Kobe, results. Multiple NBA finals - maybe not, maybe only one. Maybe MORE. You just don't know nor can't you guarantee to know.

Kobe didn't improve Gasol's softness (2008 loss - KG ate him) - how is "improvement" relevant? Each of those players bring something different. You can't just expect Amare or Bosh to play the same way Gasol plays in order to achieve the same result. Things are going to develop differently. Those players are different with different strenghs - in the realm of difference of course.

Because you know the system (the triangle) and what those teams needed. Going against Howard and Celtics front line in the finals. I think both Bosh and Amare are actually quite poor fits for both the system and those opponents.

Stop trying to act reasonable. You just said in another thread that Gasol's numbers were a product of Kobe. Yet Gasol put up similar numbers in Memphis. So you just blatantly lie or just choose not to educate yourself.

[Heavincent]

"oh yea, but Kobe made Gasol"...and this non sense about how Kobe makes everyone so much better.


But Kobe did make everyone around him better...just like every other all time great. I mean, those teams were pretty good, but most of the guys on those teams didn't really do diddly poo outside of the Lakers. What I'm about to type is completely arbitrary, but that's what the OP did, so I'll just assume this is the "arbitrary and mostly useless facts" thread.

Pau - isn't he like 0-20 in the playoffs without Kobe?
Odom - became a laughing stock after leaving the Lakers.
Fisher - :roll:
Shannon Brown - Um...a role player on the Suns I think.
Sasha Vujacic - :confusedshrug:
Jordan Farmar - :confusedshrug:
Andrew Bynum - pursuing a pro bowling career
Artest - pretty good career before he came to the Lakers I guess

Like I said, all of that is arbitrary. I'm using it to fit my agenda, just like the OP used an obscure and useless fact to fit his agenda. But I guess the only thing Kobe detractors have are arbitrary facts...like using a 3 year period of a 17 year career in which he didn't make it past the first round with a unbelievably shitty team in a stacked western conference, oh year, and he was the best player in the league for 2 of those 3 years :roll:

tl;dr version: this thread is pointless

[PickernRoller]

Because you know the system (the triangle) and what those teams needed. Going against Howard and Celtics front line in the finals. I think both Bosh and Amare are actually quite poor fits for both the system and those opponents.

Stop trying to act reasonable. You just said in another thread that Gasol's numbers were a product of Kobe. Yet Gasol put up similar numbers in Memphis. So you just blatantly lie or just choose not to educate yourself.

Quote? If anything I said Gasol benefited from playing with Kobe -which he obviously did - undeniable. But I'll wait for the quote where I say Gasol is a product of Kobe Bryant, no workaround.

The players learn the system to fit with the system. Lets not act like Phil only had success with players that can run his system and all his players were great for running his system at the start, 0. All his players had to learn the system.

Don't go out on a limb trying to say or guarantee that Amare or Bosh would be a bad fit. You just don't know so you can stop blabbing about that too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pau was on the trade market for years. The Bulls were "desperately" trying to trade for him since 2007.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2739345

Forgive me for bringing reality to the table. I'll let you get back to fantasy talk where you don't have to back up anything outside of false bravado.

:oldlol:

:oldlol: What does the Grizzlies organization suspecting Pau was not giving effort defensively and on the boards to force a trade have to do with ANYTHING?

And when did I say the Bulls were "desperately" trying to trade for him?

I don't even know why you try to discuss basketball. It's clear you know NOTHING about it and don't follow the league outside of the Lakers, and even then, I suspect you just watch Kobe highlight reels.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: What does the Grizzlies organization suspecting Pau was not giving effort defensively and on the boards to force a trade have to do with ANYTHING?

And when did I say the Bulls were "desperately" trying to trade for him?

I don't even know why you try to discuss basketball. It's clear you know NOTHING about it and don't follow the league outside of the Lakers, and even then, I suspect you just watch Kobe highlight reels.

You just got finished creating an alternate reality in which Pau Gasol is vastly superior to Bosh and Amare due to his defense and rebounding when he was put on the trading block for his lack of defense and rebounding with the Grizzlies. :confusedshrug:


Position rankings: Best power forward still a slam Dunc decision

Tim Duncan is 32, has played 11 NBA seasons and has participated in more than 150 playoff games. He is clearly on the downside of his career.Still, when you get right down to it, is there any other player you'd rather have playing power forward?

Kevin Garnett and Amare Stoudemire have to be in that discussion. But something doesn't feel right if a "best of" or "top 10" list doesn't have Duncan's name at the top. Yes, Garnett is coming off a title. Stoudemire is the best young "4" in the NBA. Even so, it's Duncan atop the leaderboard.

One more thing: If you put Duncan on the 2007-08 Celtics instead of Garnett, Boston still wins the title.

Here, then, are the top 20 power forwards:

1. Tim Duncan, San Antonio: Duncan continues to be the most vital player to the Spurs, even with the emergence of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. It is still Duncan getting double-teamed in the low post, setting the table for that twosome. And did we mention his four NBA championships?

2. Amare Stoudemire, Phoenix: The only thing left for Stoudemire is to begin making teammates better. Stoudemire is the most dominant big man in the game, more impactful than a fading Shaquille O'Neal and a burgeoning Dwight Howard.

3. Kevin Garnett, Boston: One of Garnett's greatest assets as a player -- his willingness to defer to teammates -- unfortunately keeps him No. 3 on this list. As great a player as Garnett is, he doesn't get enough credit for being a "glue guy." Don't downplay that he's in the figurative Teammate Hall of Fame.

4. Chris Bosh, Toronto: Before the Beijing Olympics, Bosh probably would have been about eighth or ninth on this list. Not anymore. His willingness to play inside and do the dirty work for Team USA portends well for the Raptors. If Bosh uses that style as his foundation and complements it with his skilled perimeter and low-post game, he's going to be a real headache. He also appears to have the look of a leader.

5. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas: Nowitzki may never again reclaim his good name after the 2006-07 playoff debacle against the Warriors, but he's still one of the league's elite players. Now that Nowitzki has settled into his NBA career, it seems apparent: He's going to need to be a team's second-best player in order to win a title. No shame there, just the way it is.

6. Carlos Boozer, Utah: Boozer is a numbers machine, in large part because he is such a big part of the Jazz offense. He has proved that game in and game out, he's going to win the power forward matchup most of the time. But this might be as high as Boozer gets because he's never going to be a great defender or shot-blocker, and his passing is so-so at best.

7. Pau Gasol, L.A. Lakers: When Gasol came into the league, he was soft. Period. After years of getting beaten on in both the NBA and international play, Gasol began to fight back and grew into a tougher, feistier player. His performance in the NBA Finals made it obvious that he still needs to make more progress, but he's working on i
Sidebar also shows his rank in 2007 as 8th

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10982501

Bill Simmons pegged him as the 39th most valuable player between Chandler and Camby: Proposes trade of Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro for Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic's expiring deal, an unprotected 2008 No. 1 and $3 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071218

[ShaqAttack3234]

You just got finished creating an alternate reality in which Pau Gasol is vastly superior to Bosh and Amare due to his defense and rebounding when he was put on the trading block for his lack of defense and rebounding with the Grizzlies. :confusedshrug:

Which the Grizzlies themselves suspected he was doing to force a trade according to your link. So again, not relevant at all. And I'm referring to his defense and rebounding during the 2009 and 2010 championship runs. He got physically stronger and tougher after the 2008 finals.

I don't think the results are much different if you build a decent team with any of these 3 as your first option. But if you have an elite first option and need a championship 2nd option, Pau is easily the right choice. Especially on those Laker teams.

Pau has never been a great defender, but he was solid on those championship Laker teams and his length made an impact. He was sure as hell better than Bosh or Amare in that regard.


Sidebar also shows his rank in 2007 as 8th

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10982501

Bill Simmons pegged him as the 39th most valuable player between Chandler and Camby: Proposes trade of Gasol and Juan Carlos Navarro for Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic's expiring deal, an unprotected 2008 No. 1 and $3 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071218

Yeah, and Chris Bosh was better than Dirk in '07-'08. Amare was also better than KG. :roll: Nice list there.

[ripthekik]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Comparing Bosh to Bird? Larry Bird was one of the greatest players in NBA History. The best non point guard passer of all-time. Of course his impact goes beyond the stats.

What I want to ask is what does Bosh contribute that can't be seen on the stats? He isn't a great defensive player, he isn't a great rebounder. Miami can't go to him in the post. What does this guy do that the stats don't show? On Miami he is essentially a pick and pop shooter from the high post. I know you won't answer this btw so just add this to the chalkboard as another time where you've been thoroughly embarassed.

Another dumbass who couldn't read. I brought up Bird as an example, to show how impact and level of play is separated from stats. And I even explained this to DMAVS, yet you still read it the wrong way. This is like the 5th time you misread something. English not your first language?
And yes, next time don't expect me to reply to you. You've proven yourself to be a dumbass unworthy of my time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Which the Grizzlies themselves suspected he was doing to force a trade according to your link. So again, not relevant at all. And I'm referring to his defense and rebounding during the 2009 and 2010 championship runs. He got physically stronger and tougher after the 2008 finals.


That's called a narrative. It sells newspapers. The new narrative will be Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe in the playoffs and he will be sent packing or amnestied.

You don't remember Bosh getting the same rewriting of history?


Which makes it all the sweeter that Bosh became an N.B.A. champion by sticking with his mid-range proficiency, playing championship-worthy defense, and retaining his fundamental weirdness.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/chris-bosh-the-second-most-maligned-n-b-a-champion/


Bosh was able to slowly come back in time for the NBA Finals and prove just how valuable he is to Miami's success. He averaged 14 points and 9 rebounds per game. More importantly he dominated the painted area on both ends of the court, virtually rendering OKC big men Serge Ibaka and Kendrick Perkins useless and altering a bunch of shots.
Bosh played like the traditional big center no one thought he was: a force down low whose great offensive skill set merely compliments his defensive abilities.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chris-bosh-soft-2012-6#ixzz2Rp32biVS

:confusedshrug:

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's called a narrative. It sells newspapers. The new narrative will be Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe in the playoffs and he will be sent packing or amnestied.

You don't remember Bosh getting the same rewriting of history?



http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/chris-bosh-the-second-most-maligned-n-b-a-champion/



http://www.businessinsider.com/chris-bosh-soft-2012-6#ixzz2Rp32biVS

:confusedshrug:

So wait, you pick and choose the part of the article that's valid, and then expect me to take it(and you) seriously?

And are you going to try to argue that Bosh is a comparable interior player to Gasol?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So wait, you pick and choose the part of the article that's valid, and then expect me to take it(and you) seriously?

And are you going to try to argue that Bosh is a comparable interior player to Gasol?

:biggums:

Yeah its called quoting. You quote the relevant section of the article and leave the link for more context. What's your problem?

[ShaqAttack3234]

:biggums:

Yeah its called quoting. You quote the relevant section of the article and leave the link for more context. What's your problem?

No I mean you claimed the Grizzlies were dissatisfied with Gasol's rebounding and defense, but disregarded the part where it said they suspected this was to force a trade despite it being from the same source.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

No I mean you claimed the Grizzlies were dissatisfied with Gasol's rebounding and defense, but disregarded the part where it said they suspected this was to force a trade despite it being from the same source.

Was he trying to force a trade since Day 1? Where do you think Gasol picked up the soft label from?

[PickernRoller]

The denial is strong with this one.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Was he trying to force a trade since Day 1? Where do you think Gasol picked up the soft label from?

Partially from actually being soft early on, and again since 2011. Though he was noticeably tougher after the 2008 finals. Then again, Chris Bosh has always had the same soft label so that doesn't really help your case.

[DMAVS41]

Another dumbass who couldn't read. I brought up Bird as an example, to show how impact and level of play is separated from stats. And I even explained this to DMAVS, yet you still read it the wrong way. This is like the 5th time you misread something. English not your first language?
And yes, next time don't expect me to reply to you. You've proven yourself to be a dumbass unworthy of my time.

But Bosh doesn't do that you ****ing moron. Bosh's impact is very much represented by his stats. And in no way does Bosh's impact go way beyond his stats while Odom is only as good as his stats.

It is a horrible analogy because Bosh doesn't do anything that really doesn't show up in the stats. Yes...he spaces the floor very well, but not at the level of Dirk or something.

Bosh is a very good player...playing the role of 3rd option last year in the playoffs and this year so far that is very similar to that of Odom. And if you evaluate what they have actually done on the court....there is no difference.

The only difference is that Bosh has the potential to do more than what he is doing and what Odom did. But he hasn't done that yet in any real way.

Not only that, but Bosh never exploded in a game or anything in the playoffs last year. His best game was probably his 24/7 game against the Thunder. He did have a nice 16/15 game against the Thunder as well.

Odom in 09? Had a 26/15/4 game. Had a 21/14 game. Had a 19/14/3 game.

So please...tell me why Bosh is so much better?

[DMAVS41]

Was he trying to force a trade since Day 1? Where do you think Gasol picked up the soft label from?

How does this help your argument? Where did Bosh get the soft label from? Where did Amare get the can't defend or rebound when it counts label from?

LOL

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Partially from actually being soft early on, and again since 2011. Though he was noticeably tougher after the 2008 finals. Then again, Chris Bosh has always had the same soft label so that doesn't really help your case.

So he is always been soft except for when he is winning championships with Kobe.

Same with Bosh with Lebron/Wade and the Olympic teams.

Funny how that works right?

:oldlol:

[MMM]

kobe has taken his team to game 5 and 7 in a similar position as Gasol as a low seeded playoff team.

[ripthekik]

But Bosh doesn't do that you ****ing moron. Bosh's impact is very much represented by his stats. And in no way does Bosh's impact go way beyond his stats while Odom is only as good as his stats.

It is a horrible analogy because Bosh doesn't do anything that really doesn't show up in the stats. Yes...he spaces the floor very well, but not at the level of Dirk or something.

Bosh is a very good player...playing the role of 3rd option last year in the playoffs and this year so far that is very similar to that of Odom. And if you evaluate what they have actually done on the court....there is no difference.

The only difference is that Bosh has the potential to do more than what he is doing and what Odom did. But he hasn't done that yet in any real way.

Not only that, but Bosh never exploded in a game or anything in the playoffs last year. His best game was probably his 24/7 game against the Thunder. He did have a nice 16/15 game against the Thunder as well.

Odom in 09? Had a 26/15/4 game. Had a 21/14 game. Had a 19/14/3 game.

So please...tell me why Bosh is so much better?
Bosh's impact is not reflected by his stats please. Put the stats down. It's not the same when you have a star in your team in his prime who can beast in short burst (unseen by end of game stats). You put pretty much any PF on this Heat team now and they'll look at the same way he does, and average the same stats.

Odom is not on the level of Bosh and he never will be. It is absolutely different to have a all-star starter in your team compared to a role player.
It's a joke that you think so highly of Odom. Or that you think so lowly of Bosh.

In the series Bosh were out.. was it a coincidence Heat were down in both series? Were they simply missing his stats? :oldlol: What, plug in a Odom and you think they'll win? Stop.

Even Heat fans last playoffs would tell you he's one of their most important players, probably more so than Wade. He's not simply a 3rd option role player like Odom. There are things you can't see in stats.

[DMAVS41]

Bosh's impact is not reflected by his stats please. Put the stats down. It's not the same when you have a star in your team in his prime who can beast in short burst (unseen by end of game stats). You put pretty much any PF on this Heat team now and they'll look at the same way he does, and average the same stats.

Odom is not on the level of Bosh and he never will be. It is absolutely different to have a all-star starter in your team compared to a role player.
It's a joke that you think so highly of Odom. Or that you think so lowly of Bosh.

In the series Bosh were out.. was it a coincidence Heat were down in both series? Were they simply missing his stats? :oldlol: What, plug in a Odom and you think they'll win? Stop.

Even Heat fans last playoffs would tell you he's one of their most important players, probably more so than Wade. He's not simply a 3rd option role player like Odom. There are things you can't see in stats.

Of course he's one of their most important players. He's their 3rd best player. Was Odom not one of the most important players on the Lakers.

Everything you said above about Bosh could be said about Odom. You aren't even making sense.

[ripthekik]

Of course he's one of their most important players. He's their 3rd best player. Was Odom not one of the most important players on the Lakers.

Everything you said above about Bosh could be said about Odom. You aren't even making sense.
Not my fault you can't see his impact. Heats fans have said his importance to the team is more than Wade. Like I said, Heat was down 2 series without Bosh for no reason. Yet you talk like he's some 3rd option where you can find anyone with those stats to replace him.

Like I said, stop. Odom is a role player. Bosh is a star. If given a chance to get a 3rd option for your team.. you'd take Odom over Bosh?

:oldlol: Come on.

[TonyMontana]

Bosh's impact is not reflected by his stats please. Put the stats down. It's not the same when you have a star in your team in his prime who can beast in short burst (unseen by end of game stats). You put pretty much any PF on this Heat team now and they'll look at the same way he does, and average the same stats.

Odom is not on the level of Bosh and he never will be. It is absolutely different to have a all-star starter in your team compared to a role player.
It's a joke that you think so highly of Odom. Or that you think so lowly of Bosh.

In the series Bosh were out.. was it a coincidence Heat were down in both series? Were they simply missing his stats? :oldlol: What, plug in a Odom and you think they'll win? Stop.

Even Heat fans last playoffs would tell you he's one of their most important players, probably more so than Wade. He's not simply a 3rd option role player like Odom. There are things you can't see in stats.

Name one intangible Bosh brings that isn't in the stats.

No shit the Heat struggle without Bosh. Take any teams best big off their team and see how they do.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I saw ripthekik get exposed by an ISH member as some 5'10 170 pound asian in another thread. :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

Name one intangible Bosh brings that isn't in the stats.

No shit the Heat struggle without Bosh. Take any teams best big off their team and see how they do.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I saw ripthekik get exposed by an ISH member as some 5'10 170 pound asian in another thread. :oldlol:
Something someone randomly said out of no where, you would take seriously? Makes sense, considering everything you typed has been crap as well. You're a 5'8 150 pound asian. What's wrong?
The only thing you've exposed is your immaturity.

The end all for this discussion is this:
For your team's 3rd option, would you take a prime Bosh or prime Odom?

If you would take a Odom.. then yeah.. you guys are idiots. Won't waste anymore of my time.

[DMAVS41]

Not my fault you can't see his impact. Heats fans have said his importance to the team is more than Wade. Like I said, Heat was down 2 series without Bosh for no reason. Yet you talk like he's some 3rd option where you can find anyone with those stats to replace him.

Like I said, stop. Odom is a role player. Bosh is a star. If given a chance to get a 3rd option for your team.. you'd take Odom over Bosh?

:oldlol: Come on.

Did I say I'd take Odom over Bosh? No, I didn't. Although it would definitely depend on the team and circumstances...and I could definitely envision scenarios in which I'd rather have the passing, defense, and versatility of Odom over Bosh.

At some point you have to do something to warrant this talk. What did Bosh do last year or this year so far in the playoffs that Odom couldn't absolutely do or didn't already do.

Is Odom defined just by his stats? I'd argue that Odom was better than his stats as well.

Nobody is saying Bosh is only his stats or a run of the mill 3rd option. But he doesn't impact the game in a way you want him to. He's not a great defender. He's not a great rebounder. He's not a great passer. He doesn't stretch the floor all the way out to the 3 point line...so while his floor spacing is good, it's not at the elite level of a Dirk.

All you keep saying is that Bosh has the potential to do more. But he didn't do more. This is about what has been done. And last year he did nothing of note that his stats don't capture in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Something someone randomly said out of no where, you would take seriously? Makes sense, considering everything you typed has been crap as well. You're a 5'8 150 pound asian. What's wrong?
The only thing you've exposed is your immaturity.

The end all for this discussion is this:
For your team's 3rd option, would you take a prime Bosh or prime Odom?

If you would take a Odom.. then yeah.. you guys are idiots. Won't waste anymore of my time.

that isn't the question. its' about...did bosh do anything in the title run last year to separate himself from odom. the answer, of course, is absolutely not. that is the point.

this isn't a hypothetical. this is about bosh vs odom in what they did in the title runs.

why? because people that list bosh as a future hall of famer...but then gloss over Odom as if he was nothing to the Lakers. when they essentially had the exact same impact. everything backs this up...stats included.

what do you have on your side? your opinion that Bosh could do more...LOL...that isn't even part of the discussion you ignorant moron.

[TonyMontana]

The question/statement was....

Name one intangible Bosh brings that isn't in the stats.

ripthekik responds with.....


Something someone randomly said out of no where, you would take seriously? Makes sense, considering everything you typed has been crap as well. You're a 5'8 150 pound asian. What's wrong?
The only thing you've exposed is your immaturity.

The end all for this discussion is this:
For your team's 3rd option, would you take a prime Bosh or prime Odom?

If you would take a Odom.. then yeah.. you guys are idiots. Won't waste anymore of my time.

Does anyone know if this dude is retarded or something? Goes on his little rants raging :oldlol: while completely avoiding the topic at hand. :oldlol:

Dont worry little guy Im sure you still have some wonton in the fridge.

[ripthekik]

that isn't the question. its' about...did bosh do anything in the title run last year to separate himself from odom. the answer, of course, is absolutely not. that is the point.

this isn't a hypothetical. this is about bosh vs odom in what they did in the title runs.

why? because people that list bosh as a future hall of famer...but then gloss over Odom as if he was nothing to the Lakers. when they essentially had the exact same impact. everything backs this up...stats included.

what do you have on your side? your opinion that Bosh could do more...LOL...that isn't even part of the discussion you ignorant moron.
My opinion that Bosh could do more? He actually did! I said, he played in his toronto level in short bursts, which can be seen by stats. When he came back, he righted the ship. His presence, his hustle, his scoring in times most needed. Watch the finals to see all the small things he did, yet uncredited. All of those can't be seen in stats.

Again, you feel the need to view Odom like some superstar, go ahead. I won't convince you. I'd like you to continue thinking this way like a idiot. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

My opinion that Bosh could do more? He actually did! I said, he played in his toronto level in short bursts, which can be seen by stats. When he came back, he righted the ship. His presence, his hustle, his scoring in times most needed. Watch the finals to see all the small things he did, yet uncredited. All of those can't be seen in stats.

Again, you feel the need to view Odom like some superstar, go ahead. I won't convince you. I'd like you to continue thinking this way like a idiot. :oldlol:

Odom didn't play at an elite level in short bursts? Odom didn't put up some huge games?

Never said Odom was a superstar. Said Odom impacted the game about as much as Bosh did last year on their title runs.

And I'd like to know why Bosh's performance was better. Now why Bosh is the better first option. I'd like to know what Bosh actually did last year that really separates him from Odom.

And you have offered nothing. Why? Because there is nothing.

[ripthekik]

Odom didn't play at an elite level in short bursts? Odom didn't put up some huge games?

Never said Odom was a superstar. Said Odom impacted the game about as much as Bosh did last year on their title runs.

And I'd like to know why Bosh's performance was better. Now why Bosh is the better first option. I'd like to know what Bosh actually did last year that really separates him from Odom.

And you have offered nothing. Why? Because there is nothing.
Odom doesn't have that elite level, that's the thing. Bosh does.

I offered you explanations, because those are things that can't be seen in numbers. But if you won't take them, or say that Odom does the same, what can I do? :confusedshrug:

Anyways, my last post before I leave. I'm perfectly fine with you thinking Odom is a star like Bosh is. Doesn't change anything. When people look at Kobe's Lakers.. Pau will still be the only name that pops up. Yet Wade and Bosh will always be mentioned. So yea.. keep Odom's place in your heart highly.. doesn't change a thing.

[DMAVS41]

Odom doesn't have that elite level, that's the thing. Bosh does.

I offered you explanations, because those are things that can't be seen in numbers. But if you won't take them, or say that Odom does the same, what can I do? :confusedshrug:

Anyways, my last post before I leave. I'm perfectly fine with you thinking Odom is a star like Bosh is. Doesn't change anything. When people look at Kobe's Lakers.. Pau will still be the only name that pops up. Yet Wade and Bosh will always be mentioned. So yea.. keep Odom's place in your heart highly.. doesn't change a thing.

I don't think Odom is a star on the level of Bosh. I think their impact as third options was about as equal as you can get. Bosh is a better shooter scorer, but Odom is better in other ways. They put up similar stats...and both had some really good games and some really shitty games.

You keep making my point for me. Bosh is mentioned for what he used to do and what he could potentially do. Not for what he actually did. If that changes...then it will change.

But last year and so far this year. Bosh's impact is no different than that of Odom. And the reason you hate that so much is because you love to use Bosh against Lebron...when in reality, he's no different than Odom (a player you don't even mention when it comes to those Lakers teams)

That is the exact point. That reality is different than you BS perceptions on what Bosh actually did on that team last year in the playoffs.

Do you realize he was hurt? Do you realize he missed games? I swear people think they can revise history now on something that is less than a year old.

Let me ask you this. Who would you rather playing the 3rd option on a team taking roughly an average of 10 shots a game and not getting to have the ball in his hand a lot. He's the clear cut 3rd option.

Prime Artest or Prime Iverson? Please answer.

Funny how you Kobe fans don't do it this way when it comes to Gasol and Howard this year. Those guys just "suck"...but if Lebron had them...it would be about their elite level and what they are capable of. So you have no issue with someone hammering Kobe for barely making the playoffs with Howard and Gasol? Or can we use logic and understand that Howard wasn't the same player this year because of injuries and the role he was playing on a team with a terrible coach for him and poor chemistry. Same with Gasol? Or do we really have pretend like they were better than they actually were this year because of their names.

The truth is that if Bosh was just a no name player and did what he did in the playoffs last year. Nobody would be saying anything about it other than that guy is a really good 3rd option. But because Bosh used to average more points on a shitty team...we have to pretend he does stuff he doesn't actually do.

Is that about right?

[fozi]

Pau will be 0-16 in all-time playoff games without Kobe.


Dude, try to be more objective in looking into things in life ..


Kobe is obviously giving you nightmares as you continue to throw things at him even when he's not playing ..

[dh144498]

Pau will be 0-16 in all-time playoff games without Kobe.


Dude, try to be more objective in looking into things in life ..


Kobe is obviously giving you nightmares as you continue to throw things at him even when he's not playing ..

:applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

So he is always been soft except for when he is winning championships with Kobe.

Same with Bosh with Lebron/Wade and the Olympic teams.

Funny how that works right?

:oldlol:

2008 finals seemed like a wakeup call for him. His first legit shot at a title and he got exposed to some degree, but learned from it. There's articles from that summer about Pau getting stronger and when he was tested in the finals the next 2 years, first vs Dwight and then vs Boston, he passed with flying colors.

Downfall started in 2011. Pau had a great start to the season, but he was being relied on more with Kobe coming off a knee surgery and Bynum out to start the season. That combined with 3 straight long playoff runs to the finals, playing for Spain and reaching 30 seemed to effect him to some degree as the season went on. This was most noticeable at the defensive end where he had clearly slipped compared to the 2 championship years. Then there was the bizarre girlfriend situation in the 2011 playoffs, the near trade for CP3, and probably more than anything being moved further away from the basket in favor of Bynum and Howard.

So yes, he's been softer since the championships. By the way, Bosh is a really good player, but he's still a soft player who shoots a lot of jumpers and doesn't rebound well.

[kennethgriffin]

2008 finals seemed like a wakeup call for him. His first legit shot at a title and he got exposed to some degree, but learned from it. There's articles from that summer about Pau getting stronger and when he was tested in the finals the next 2 years, first vs Dwight and then vs Boston, he passed with flying colors.

Downfall started in 2011. Pau had a great start to the season, but he was being relied on more with Kobe coming off a knee surgery and Bynum out to start the season. That combined with 3 straight long playoff runs to the finals, playing for Spain and reaching 30 seemed to effect him to some degree as the season went on. This was most noticeable at the defensive end where he had clearly slipped compared to the 2 championship years. Then there was the bizarre girlfriend situation in the 2011 playoffs, the near trade for CP3, and probably more than anything being moved further away from the basket in favor of Bynum and Howard.

So yes, he's been softer since the championships. By the way, Bosh is a really good player, but he's still a soft player who shoots a lot of jumpers and doesn't rebound well.


even you can admit pau gasol only had 2 legit great seasons in his career

is that a hall of famer?

[ShaqAttack3234]

even you can admit pau gasol only had 2 legit great seasons in his career

is that a hall of famer?

As well as a number of really good seasons. This is pretty irrelevant though to how good Gasol was because if he wasn't playing at a HOF level then not that many championship 2nd options have since the 90's. Pippen and '01/'02 Kobe would be the only true championship second options since the 90's in that case.

But the impact he made in LA as soon as he arrived combined with being a huge part of 2 titles and at least 10 years of all-star caliber play makes him no less worthy than some already in the HOF.