Why LeBron doesn't deserve the MVP

[russwest0]

That Heat team WITHOUT LeBron would still be favorites to win it all this year. I wouldn't call the guy the most valuable player.

[AngelEyes]

No, they really wouldn't be.

[lebeast666]

Not getting passed second round without Lebron :confusedshrug:

Would've struggled vs Bucks with Wade hurt

[Ancient Legend]

In a 7 game series, they wouldn't the beat the Knicks, Grizzlies, Spurs or Clippers without LeBron.

[Dengness9]

Lebron deserves MVP. Stop.


However in the new Leastern Conference, the one those 3 ******* dumbed down, the Heat could still be the East Champs with Wade and Bosh and good role players.

[jimmy77x]

This thread is new and refreshing,will read again after 10+ pages of the same arguments.

[jlip]

This thread is new and refreshing,will read again after 10+ pages of the same arguments.

This

[kennethgriffin]

I think of the mvp as a club and not a yearly award. The voters let guys into that club. But if theres no new members worthy of their attention to sell stories. Theyel just give it to their favorite player on a top team. The media used to be about creating stories like a book to sell their news. But they dont see any real marketing pull from a cp3 or durant push that they couldnt already get out of their idol lebron. His same old boring story is still more popular to the brain washed fans out there that eat it up. And until they stop carring to buy insider articles to read up in his per or find lebrons story boring. Theyel continue to do this. Notice how when fans originally turned on lebron thwy gave their attention to rose. Now that the fans have mostly forgiven james. Theyre back on his waggon. In the end i see a guy knocking him off like carmelo because of the fact that hes from new york and his push would mean more to ratings. Lebrons number of mvps will never mean much. Its just guys like skip bayless and bill simmons voting for these awards. And theyre morons..

[jzek]

MVP really is the Birdman. Since he joined the Heat, they went 44-3.

[Ancient Legend]

MVP really is the Birdman. Since he joined the Heat, they went 44-3.

I think they are 40-2 with Juwan Howard in a suit.

[Trollsmasher]

Yeah, this Wade surely look like somebody who can carry this team to the championship. I don't need to even mention 13/8 Boshosaurus.

I think of the mvp as a club and not a yearly award. The voters let guys into that club. But if theres no new members worthy of their attention to sell stories. Theyel just give it to their favorite player on a top team. The media used to be about creating stories like a book to sell their news. But they dont see any real marketing pull from a cp3 or durant push that they couldnt already get out of their idol lebron. His same old boring story is still more popular to the brain washed fans out there that eat it up. And until they stop carring to buy insider articles to read up in his per or find lebrons story boring. Theyel continue to do this. Notice how when fans originally turned on lebron thwy gave their attention to rose. Now that the fans have mostly forgiven james. Theyre back on his waggon. In the end i see a guy knocking him off like carmelo because of the fact that hes from new york and his push would mean more to ratings. Lebrons number of mvps will never mean much. Its just guys like skip bayless and bill simmons voting for these awards. And theyre morons..
http://i.imgur.com/VWr6I.gif

[305Baller]

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/7/9/79d79_ORIG-didnt_read_dont_care.jpg

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Lebron deserves MVP. Stop.


However in the new Leastern Conference, the one those 3 ******* dumbed down, the Heat could still be the East Champs with Wade and Bosh and good role players.

lol at you blaming them for teaming up. You should be blaming Rose for sitting on the bench and twiddling his thumbs while he's completely healthy.

[Connor B]

That Heat team WITHOUT LeBron would still be favorites to win it all this year. I wouldn't call the guy the most valuable player.

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

[alleykat]

you should stop watching basketball, if you even do....

[imnew09]

He stopped deserving the MVP award when he betrayed behalf of the Cleveland fans, and joined two of the most elite players in the league to ring chase.

[plowking]

He stopped deserving the MVP award when he betrayed behalf of the Cleveland fans, and joined two of the most elite players in the league to ring chase.

How did he betray Cleveland? His contract was up, he left. Are you not allowed to take jobs in other cities beside the one you grew up in?

Anyway, isn't their usually some talk about the MVP award by now? Someone with an inside scoop on how the voting went, etc. We usually know the outcome a bit before the official announcement.

[chazzy]

That's not how the NBA MVP works though. He pretty much is by far the best candidate no matter the criteria. They could make the finals without Lebron and a healthy Wade, but that doesn't mean he's not MVP of the league

[russwest0]

No, they really wouldn't be.

Best SG and 2nd best PF in the playoffs. Two decent PG's in Cole and Chalmers. Cole is a great defender, Chalmers is good on offense. Ray ****ing Allen. Birdman has been a nice addition. Also have Joey and Dan Crawford who would takeover games for them. Who in the West is beating them?

LeBron is a bitch tbh

[creepingdeath]

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2012/09/face_slap_in_slow_motion-2100.gif

[tmacattack33]

LOL.

Wade's been hurt. With no Lebron and an injured Wade, they'd have no creator on offense from the perimeter.

Lebron is also Miami's best rebounder who is good enough on offense to play major minutes. LOL at a team of Bosh, Battier, Rashard Lewis, and Chris Anderson for 15 minutes per game trying to compete on the glass.

[imnew09]

How did he betray Cleveland? His contract was up, he left. Are you not allowed to take jobs in other cities beside the one you grew up in?

Anyway, isn't their usually some talk about the MVP award by now? Someone with an inside scoop on how the voting went, etc. We usually know the outcome a bit before the official announcement.

By promising to never leave them and promising to bring a ring to Cleveland... and all of a suddenly, he's gone.

Betray :

to disappoint the hopes or expectations of

source: Dictionary.com.

[russwest0]

How did he betray Cleveland? His contract was up, he left. Are you not allowed to take jobs in other cities beside the one you grew up in?

Anyway, isn't their usually some talk about the MVP award by now? Someone with an inside scoop on how the voting went, etc. We usually know the outcome a bit before the official announcement.

Because he led the FO to believe he was coming back, and then ditched them on live TV to go act like a clown in Miami a few days later, dancing around, saying "not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7"

Look at what Melo did. Told the FO he wasn't going to resign, so they traded him and got a pretty good package. Look at where Denver has been since. A decent playoff team in the West.

[jlip]

By promising to never leave them and promising to bring a ring to Cleveland... and all of a suddenly, he's gone.

Betray :

to disappoint the hopes or expectations of

source: Dictionary.com.

Serious question...Did you ever care how the fans of an opposing team in some city that you've probably never lived in feel before July 8, 2010?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

By promising to never leave them and promising to bring a ring to Cleveland... and all of a suddenly, he's gone.

Betray :

to disappoint the hopes or expectations of

source: Dictionary.com.

So did Dan Gilbert betray Cleveland by not being able to back up his guarantee of the Cavs winning a championship before Lebron?

[plowking]

Because he led the FO to believe he was coming back, and then ditched them on live TV to go act like a clown in Miami a few days later, dancing around, saying "not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7"

Look at what Melo did. Told the FO he wasn't going to resign, so they traded him and got a pretty good package. Look at where Denver has been since. A decent playoff team in the West.

In what way did he lead them to believe that? He might come back down the road, not now.

Did Cleveland not get cap room to sign other players? Did that not result in them getting Kyrie Irving, who if you read on here is apparently the most untradeable player outside of Lebron and Durant on here.



And anyway, why do you personally care if he left Cleveland if you're not a fan? Makes you look like a little b*tch, along with this thread you created. Seems like you're just sour over Lebron.

[imnew09]

Serious question...Did you ever care how the fans of an opposing team in some city that you've probably never lived in feel before July 8, 2010?

I'm quite emotional at times, so it's a matter of perspective towards the attitude of the fans. And why you go off topic? I was just teaching Plowking what betray means so he won't fks up in life. :confusedshrug:

[plowking]

So did Dan Gilbert betray Cleveland by not being able to back up his guarantee of the Cavs winning a championship before Lebron?

I've never seen a thread on this from opposing team fans complaining about the matter. :oldlol:

I'm sure imnew09 is furious with Gilbert though. :oldlol:

[imnew09]

In what way did he lead them to believe that? He might come back down the road, not now.

Did Cleveland not get cap room to sign other players? Did that not result in them getting Kyrie Irving, who if you read on here is apparently the most untradeable player outside of Lebron and Durant on here.



And anyway, why do you personally care if he left Cleveland if you're not a fan? Makes you look like a little b*tch, along with this thread you created. Seems like you're just sour over Lebron.

You asked a question how Lebron betrayed Cleveland and we provided you with a precise answer, and now you go way off topic saying why we care about Cleveland? Good one. Yes, Cleveland got so much better with Kyrie that they didn't even make it to the playoff :applause:

My job's done here. Can't argue with irrational poster.

[plowking]

I'm quite emotional at times, so it's a matter of perspective towards the attitude of the fans. And why you go off topic? I was just teaching Plowking what betray means so he won't fks up in life. :confusedshrug:

Would you say the LA Lakers betrayed the city of Los Angeles when they put up a dismal performance in the 2008 finals and lost?

They disappointed the hopes and expectations of the city, which was to win.

Same preface.

[plowking]

You asked a question how Lebron betrayed Cleveland and we provided you with a precise answer, and now you go way off topic saying why we care about Cleveland? Good one. Yes, Cleveland got so much better with Kyrie that they didn't even make it to the playoff :applause:

My job's done here. Can't argue with irrational poster.

You're the one that brought up Cleveland. The topic was about his MVP.

I'm not the one that cares about Cleveland; you clearly do bringing them up first.

[PJR]

OP is a Jason Collins.

[ShadowIX]

Lebeast

[imnew09]

As I said before, can't argue with irrational poster.

Re read the arguments, and you will see yourself as an bias poster.

[plowking]

As I said before, can't argue with irrational poster.

Re read the arguments, and you will see yourself as an bias poster.

Cool. You know you brought up Cleveland first. This ones in the bag.

[imnew09]

Cool. You know you brought up Cleveland first. This ones in the bag.

Why does bringing up Cleveland matters? Are you really that stupid? I said Lebron betrayed Cleveland and I will say it again. Why does it matters to the arguments? :facepalm He did betrayed Cleveland, everyone knows, all over the news, I'm simply stating a fact. If you believe you have this one on the bags, you're the biggest dumbfk ever :bowdown:

[diamenz]

lebron deserves mvp - rest of today's league is sh!t.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Why does bringing up Cleveland matters? Are you really that stupid? I said Lebron betrayed Cleveland and I will say it again. Why does it matters to the arguments? :facepalm He did betrayed Cleveland, everyone knows, all over the news, I'm simply stating a fact. If you believe you have this one on the bags, you're the biggest dumbfk ever :bowdown:

You didn't reply to my post. Did Gilbert betray Cleveland too by your logic?

[duatjsghd]

So who deserves it?

[imnew09]

You didn't reply to my post. Did Gilbert betray Cleveland too by your logic?

Last time I checked, Gilbert is still in Cleveland. What Gilbert did is not considered betrayal, he simply tried to motivate Cleveland fans and he did; which is something respectful to do for the city. Go back to school and ask your teacher because I'm tired of educating dumbfks.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Last time I checked, Gilbert is still in Cleveland. What Gilbert did is not considered betrayal, he simply tried to motivate Cleveland fans and he did; which is something respectful to do for the city. Go back to school and ask your teacher because I'm tired of educating dumbfks.

I tried having a debate with your but you're just an ignorant dumbass. Carry on.

[imnew09]

I tried having a debate with your but you're just an ignorant dumbass. Carry on.

I smell burn.

[plowking]

Why does bringing up Cleveland matters? Are you really that stupid? I said Lebron betrayed Cleveland and I will say it again. Why does it matters to the arguments? :facepalm He did betrayed Cleveland, everyone knows, all over the news, I'm simply stating a fact. If you believe you have this one on the bags, you're the biggest dumbfk ever :bowdown:

You said I got off topic. You were off topic with your first post. I was simply correcting and educating you. You can thank me later.

[Dengness9]

lol at you blaming them for teaming up. You should be blaming Rose for sitting on the bench and twiddling his thumbs while he's completely healthy.


Just like everyone and their mother, you think you are qualified to say that Rose should be playing. Just like everyone and their mother, you also suck ****.

So you are disagreeing that Wade and Bosh plus a nice team around them couldn't possibly win the East?

I said he deserved MVP right off the bat. There was objectivity in my post.

Your post? NONE.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Just like everyone and their mother, you think you are qualified to say that Rose should be playing. Just like everyone and their mother, you also suck ****.

So you are disagreeing that Wade and Bosh plus a nice team around them couldn't possibly win the East?

I said he deserved MVP right off the bat. There was objectivity in my post.

Your post? NONE.

I don't know why people get so upset over this. Did I insult you?

The East is kind of weak right now, and part of it is because Rose is willingly sitting out. All I said was that he should be playing considering he has been medically cleared and is "90% ready". It would make the Heat-Bulls series a lot more interesting.

[red1]

this years mvp is such a no brainer that any fggt who complains is undoubtedly a bitter fggt who grows sour grapes for a living

[no pun intended]

Y'all are wrong. Jason Collins will be elected MVP.

[alleykat]

u guys know that this might be the first unanimous MVP.......it would be different if it was a close match, then you could give someone else the benefit of the doubt. This year is not even a debate...

however, steph curry is gonna win it next year.....

[ripthekik]

he'll get it. but does it deserves it? hell no.

Heat are eastern conference champions even without lebron.

[Bigsmoke]

Wade's body is breaking down even tho he's playing limited minutes.

imagine what would Wade woule be like if LeBron wasn't there.

[Rose'sACL]

He stopped deserving the MVP award when he betrayed behalf of the Cleveland fans, and joined two of the most elite players in the league to ring chase.
kobe betrayed LA too when he told them that they will not get swept against mavs. i don't think he even stopped there. he told them that lakers will make a comeback and win the series. Kobe was much older when he made that promise than lebron was when he promised a ring for cavs.

[leMVP]

Lebron makes everyone around him better, He's ultimate teammate, that's why he's the MVP, and will always be.

[chosen_wun]

Im a fan but this years MVP is so obvious you will look dumb arguing otherwise. Im sorry.

[3peated]

durant is the only other option besides lebron, and he isn't even close. cp3 isn't in that conversation, i can't even think of anyone else who might be. i'm not a huge lebron fan, but he earned it this year.

[Nash]

MVP is that most valuable player in the league, not the most valuable player in a stacked or non stacked team. Lebron's game and production is the best which makes it the most valuable in the league.

And Miami without Lebron is basically a lame version of OKC without the front court. Wade and Bosh are superstars but they'd be one of many contenders with a very questionable front line.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

I'm a dumbass.

Yes. Yes you are.

[KOBE143]

I think LeBron maybe deserve it this year since Kobe was injured.. But if Kobe doesnt get injured, Kobe deserve it more.. Lakers lose by swept is already enough evidence that Kobe is the real MVP but I think they will not give it to Kobe because he's injured and inactive and since MVP has been rigged in favor of LeBron..

[r15mohd]

he'll get it. but does it deserves it? hell no.

Heat are eastern conference champions even without lebron.

it's amazing how your hate for Lebron skews your whole thought process smh :facepalm


the Knicks, Pacers, Bulls and Celts own the Heat without Lebron...Wade and Bosh are good together but would be lucky to make the ECF, much less make it to the Finals

[Bigsmoke]

it's amazing how your hate for Lebron skews your whole thought process smh :facepalm


the Knicks, Pacers, Bulls and Pacers own the Heat without Lebron...Wade and Bosh are good together but would be lucky to make the ECF, much less make it to the Finals

he's basically breaks down the saying "Hate and Love is the same thing"

he hates LeBron to a point that he rocks nothing but LeBron avatars and mentions him in every post like he loves him...

[Kurosawa0]

LeBron's season is the most MVP worthy since Shaq's 2000 or MJ's 1992.

[Mr. Incredible]

Deal with it and stay mad :roll:

[pauk]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/988122/maskoff.gif

[DaSeba5]

I've been waiting to use this

http://www.everyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/tim-duncan-deal-with-it.gif

[kshutts1]

it's amazing how your hate for Lebron skews your whole thought process smh :facepalm


the Knicks, Pacers, Bulls and Celts own the Heat without Lebron...Wade and Bosh are good together but would be lucky to make the ECF, much less make it to the Finals
You are not the only person to use this playoff argument, but rather the most recent.

MVP is a regular season award. Ask Dirk. It does not include the playoffs, nor what it expected of said team come playoff time.

That being said, the Heat would still be the #1 seed in the LEast without Lebron. How much "value" does that really bring? In a playoff sense, yes, Lebron is probably the MVP. The Heat would be favorites to come out of the East, but would NOT be title favorites (without Lebron), but with him they are. So he is the playoff MVP in my books.

But the regular season MVP? No. That is reserved for a player whose subtraction (hypothetical or real) greatly reduces the team's win total, which obviously includes the chance to make the playoffs.

My choice?
Team without my player? 5-28 (easily the worst team in the league)
Team with my player? 24-25 (in a fight for the eighth seed, with an outside shot at 7th)

That player? John Wall of the Washington Wizards. There is tangible evidence of his value, and that value pertains to exactly what the MVP should be about. The team is obviously, noticeably worse without him playing, yet with him they are a team worth paying attention to, one which you need to play one of your better games to beat them.

Even taking a hypothetical approach to other top teams without their best players...

Lakers without Kobe would arguably still be a 7th or 8th seed.. maybe 9th. But by no means the worst team in the league.

Thunder without Durant would not be the best team in the West anymore, but they'd probably be a around the 4/5/6 range.

Spurs without Duncan or Parker (but not both) is one of the trickiest situations... Popp sits his players regularly, and the team still competes, but that's a game-to-game basis and not an extended layoff. I think the team would suffer more if Parker was out for an extended period of time, but that "suffering" would probably still amount to a 4/5/6, similar to the Thunder, rather than the 2 seed they got.

Bulls without Rose... oh, wait. We saw that. 6 seed.

[All Net]

Really wish I could ban these april registered posters...

[Rose'sACL]

You are not the only person to use this playoff argument, but rather the most recent.

MVP is a regular season award. Ask Dirk. It does not include the playoffs, nor what it expected of said team come playoff time.

That being said, the Heat would still be the #1 seed in the LEast without Lebron. How much "value" does that really bring? In a playoff sense, yes, Lebron is probably the MVP. The Heat would be favorites to come out of the East, but would NOT be title favorites (without Lebron), but with him they are. So he is the playoff MVP in my books.

But the regular season MVP? No. That is reserved for a player whose subtraction (hypothetical or real) greatly reduces the team's win total, which obviously includes the chance to make the playoffs.

My choice?
Team without my player? 5-28 (easily the worst team in the league)
Team with my player? 24-25 (in a fight for the eighth seed, with an outside shot at 7th)

That player? John Wall of the Washington Wizards. There is tangible evidence of his value, and that value pertains to exactly what the MVP should be about. The team is obviously, noticeably worse without him playing, yet with him they are a team worth paying attention to, one which you need to play one of your better games to beat them.

Even taking a hypothetical approach to other top teams without their best players...

Lakers without Kobe would arguably still be a 7th or 8th seed.. maybe 9th. But by no means the worst team in the league.

Thunder without Durant would not be the best team in the West anymore, but they'd probably be a around the 4/5/6 range.

Spurs without Duncan or Parker (but not both) is one of the trickiest situations... Popp sits his players regularly, and the team still competes, but that's a game-to-game basis and not an extended layoff. I think the team would suffer more if Parker was out for an extended period of time, but that "suffering" would probably still amount to a 4/5/6, similar to the Thunder, rather than the 2 seed they got.

Bulls without Rose... oh, wait. We saw that. 6 seed.

Heat were 12 wins ahead of knicks, without lebron lets say they are 1/2nd seed but either 1 game ahead or back of knicks. how did he not improve the team significantly by giving them 12 wins?you also forgot that wade is old and if he had to play those final games to get heat number 1 seed , he might have been injured for playoffs. stop posting shit where what you assume is right and when others assume something, they are idiots.

Lebron james played 76 games and dwayne wade played 69. lebron even averaged 37.9 mins compared to 34.7 of wade. wade would probably be out of playoffs if he had to play 40 mins a game for 80 games to get miami #1 seed.
how is this not mvp worthy while having stat line of 26.8/7.3/8 on an insane fg%?

[aj1987]

Really wish I could ban these april registered posters...
There're much worse older posters than me. I don't think I'm that bad a poster.

[pegasus]

Heat were 12 wins ahead of knicks, without lebron lets say they are 1/2nd seed but either 1 game ahead or back of knicks. how did he not improve the team significantly by giving them 12 wins?you also forgot that wade is old and if he had to play those final games to get heat number 1 seed , he might have been injured for playoffs. stop posting shit where what you assume is right and when others assume something, they are idiots.

Lebron james played 76 games and dwayne wade played 69. lebron even averaged 37.9 mins compared to 34.7 of wade. wade would probably be out of playoffs if he had to play 40 mins a game for 80 games to get miami #1 seed.
how is this not mvp worthy while having stat line of 26.8/7.3/8 on an insane fg%?
So we're now giving Lebron the MVP for hypothetically keeping Wade healthy?:lol

The fact is Lebron is the least valuable to his team among the superstars. The same can be said about Wade. So I don't understand why they should be awarded for being cowards. Isn't it enough that they'll have a cakewalk to a chip?

[kshutts1]

Heat were 12 wins ahead of knicks, without lebron lets say they are 1/2nd seed but either 1 game ahead or back of knicks. how did he not improve the team significantly by giving them 12 wins?you also forgot that wade is old and if he had to play those final games to get heat number 1 seed , he might have been injured for playoffs. stop posting shit where what you assume is right and when others assume something, they are idiots.

Lebron james played 76 games and dwayne wade played 69. lebron even averaged 37.9 mins compared to 34.7 of wade. wade would probably be out of playoffs if he had to play 40 mins a game for 80 games to get miami #1 seed.
how is this not mvp worthy while having stat line of 26.8/7.3/8 on an insane fg%?

At the end of the season, did those extra 12 wins mean anything for the Heat in terms of Eastern Conference seeding? No. So they're non-value wins. The Heat were 6 games ahead of the Thunder for overall top seed... so the Heat could lose an extra 5-6 games and still be the top seed in the entire league. The case could be made that if the Heat drop to 58 wins (tied for SA for second best record in the L) then that is a steep decline, in that they lost HCA to both of their main competitors. But is being the top seed in the East, and having HCA over all teams except for Thunder and maybe Spurs (depends on how tiebreaker works) really that insanely valuable that Lebron deserves regular season MVP? No. Give it to someone whose being active and playing well truly altered their season standing.

[kshutts1]

how is this not mvp worthy while having stat line of 26.8/7.3/8 on an insane fg%?

A second note: Lebron is BY FAR the best player in the league. It's not even close. But that doesn't automatically make him the MVP.

[Fudge]

this years mvp is such a no brainer that any fggt who complains is undoubtedly a bitter fggt who grows sour grapes for a living
shut the fcuk up red1

[longtime lurker]

The whole idea that the Heat wouldn't be as good without Lebron is laughable. The team basically came together to force feed Lebron a championship. They're still a contender without him, just not the favourites that's all. Without Lebron do the Knicks get healthier? Does the East suddenly stop sucking? The Heat right now are really just a starstudded version of the Knicks. That being said Lebron is still the MVP, no one has made a compelling argument for anyone else.

[Rose'sACL]

At the end of the season, did those extra 12 wins mean anything for the Heat in terms of Eastern Conference seeding? No. So they're non-value wins. The Heat were 6 games ahead of the Thunder for overall top seed... so the Heat could lose an extra 5-6 games and still be the top seed in the entire league. The case could be made that if the Heat drop to 58 wins (tied for SA for second best record in the L) then that is a steep decline, in that they lost HCA to both of their main competitors. But is being the top seed in the East, and having HCA over all teams except for Thunder and maybe Spurs (depends on how tiebreaker works) really that insanely valuable that Lebron deserves regular season MVP? No. Give it to someone whose being active and playing well truly altered their season standing.
yes, they meant a lot as wade didn't have to play and he is still slightly injured. if heat didn't have that 12 game cushion, wade would have to play more games and more mins/game to secure 1st seed which most probably would have resulted in his injury getting worse. what is so hard to understand? he probably would have had to choose between missing playoffs game or to get his team 1st seed by playing more games.whether you like it or not, injuries matter a lot and injuries like the ones wade has can be easily controlled by playing less. this is not an acl tear that happens suddenly and you are out for an year.


The whole idea that the Heat wouldn't be as good without Lebron is laughable. The team basically came together to force feed Lebron a championship. They're still a contender without him, just not the favourites that's all. Without Lebron do the Knicks get healthier? Does the East suddenly stop sucking? The Heat right now are really just a starstudded version of the Knicks. That being said Lebron is still the MVP, no one has made a compelling argument for anyone else.
how are they a contender with a wade that can't play regularly? you guys care so much when other stars get injured but when you can clearly see that wade can't play like he used to because of injuries, you don't mention it at all.

[K Xerxes]

You are not the only person to use this playoff argument, but rather the most recent.

MVP is a regular season award. Ask Dirk. It does not include the playoffs, nor what it expected of said team come playoff time.

That being said, the Heat would still be the #1 seed in the LEast without Lebron. How much "value" does that really bring? In a playoff sense, yes, Lebron is probably the MVP. The Heat would be favorites to come out of the East, but would NOT be title favorites (without Lebron), but with him they are. So he is the playoff MVP in my books.

But the regular season MVP? No. That is reserved for a player whose subtraction (hypothetical or real) greatly reduces the team's win total, which obviously includes the chance to make the playoffs.

My choice?
Team without my player? 5-28 (easily the worst team in the league)
Team with my player? 24-25 (in a fight for the eighth seed, with an outside shot at 7th)

That player? John Wall of the Washington Wizards. There is tangible evidence of his value, and that value pertains to exactly what the MVP should be about. The team is obviously, noticeably worse without him playing, yet with him they are a team worth paying attention to, one which you need to play one of your better games to beat them.

Even taking a hypothetical approach to other top teams without their best players...

Lakers without Kobe would arguably still be a 7th or 8th seed.. maybe 9th. But by no means the worst team in the league.

Thunder without Durant would not be the best team in the West anymore, but they'd probably be a around the 4/5/6 range.

Spurs without Duncan or Parker (but not both) is one of the trickiest situations... Popp sits his players regularly, and the team still competes, but that's a game-to-game basis and not an extended layoff. I think the team would suffer more if Parker was out for an extended period of time, but that "suffering" would probably still amount to a 4/5/6, similar to the Thunder, rather than the 2 seed they got.

Bulls without Rose... oh, wait. We saw that. 6 seed.

You have arbitrarily defined the MVP as the player who is the most valuable player to their team, as opposed to the most valuable player to the league or any team. What exactly makes your definition more accurate or applicable?

I don't particularly blame you though. The criteria for the MVP is so ambiguous, can change every year and is at times nonsensical (i.e. best player on the best team). Using your definition, John Wall is a serious contender, I agree. But it doesn't work that way - the media will never reward a crucial player on a bad team without exceptional reasons.

Besides, your criteria means that Love or Nash should have won last year. It means that Jordan shouldn't have won any MVPs in his title runs. It means that Bird shouldn't have won any MVPs. Or some of Magic's. Or some of Kareem's. Clearly something isn't right here.

I would much rather prefer the MVP to simply be the best player in the league - i.e. the most valuable player to the league. It removes the ambiguity and reduces biases to players on good or bad teams.

[kshutts1]

You have arbitrarily defined the MVP as the player who is the most valuable player to their team, as opposed to the most valuable player to the league or any team. What exactly makes your definition more accurate or applicable?

I don't particularly blame you though. The criteria for the MVP is so ambiguous, can change every year and is at times nonsensical (i.e. best player on the best team). Using your definition, John Wall is a serious contender, I agree. But it doesn't work that way - the media will never reward a crucial player on a bad team without exceptional reasons.

Besides, your criteria means that Love or Nash should have won last year. It means that Jordan shouldn't have won any MVPs in his title runs. It means that Bird shouldn't have won any MVPs. Or some of Magic's. Or some of Kareem's. Clearly something isn't right here.

I would much rather prefer the MVP to simply be the best player in the league - i.e. the most valuable player to the league. It removes the ambiguity and reduces biases to players on good or bad teams.

I don't see how Love or Nash would have won last year.

But regardless, I would like to see a "best player" award, as well as an MVP.

[daj0264]

without lebron the team still wins 50 games

[NumberSix]

A second note: Lebron is BY FAR the best player in the league. It's not even close. But that doesn't automatically make him the MVP.
Any person with common sense knows that ideally....

MVP = best player of the season award.

Otherwise, what's the point of even having an award?

[kshutts1]

Any person with common sense knows that ideally....

MVP = best player of the season award.

Otherwise, what's the point of even having an award?

I get all hung up on technicalities... why call it the most VALUABLE player award if it is truly meant as the BEST player award?

As 90% of know, "valuable" and "best" mean completely different things. Call it what it is and I have no issue.


Edit: Although if we call it "best" then the award becomes even more of a fraud than it currently is.

And someone else mentioned "MVP of the league"... there is nothing that would lead me to believe that is the case, but looking at the past 5-10 winners, that poster has a pretty sound point.

[ripthekik]

Any person with common sense knows that ideally....

MVP = best player of the season award.

Otherwise, what's the point of even having an award?
Except it's not called Best Player Award..
it's called most VALUABLE player award isn't it
:hammerhead:

[Rose'sACL]

without lebron the team still wins 50 games
without jordan , team still won 55 games. please stop this.

[NumberSix]

I get all hung up on technicalities... why call it the most VALUABLE player award if it is truly meant as the BEST player award?

As 90% of know, "valuable" and "best" mean completely different things. Call it what it is and I have no issue.


Edit: Although if we call it "best" then the award becomes even more of a fraud than it currently is.

And someone else mentioned "MVP of the league"... there is nothing that would lead me to believe that is the case, but looking at the past 5-10 winners, that poster has a pretty sound point.
In what possible scenario is someone who's the best that season not the most valuable?

What exactly do you think value means? In the NBA, it could only mean 1 of 2 things. Value for money or value for a roster spot. I don't think a single person seriously ranks player value for the award based on salary, so there's only one thing left. What you get for 1 roster slot. Who gives you more value for a roster slot than the best player of the season?

[NumberSix]

Except it's not called Best Player Award..
it's called most VALUABLE player award isn't it
:hammerhead:
The best player IS the most valuable.

[ripthekik]

Who gives you more value for a roster slot than the best player of the season?
law of diminishing returns? when the best player also has 2 other all star starters in his team, how is he valuable? If that team can still get top east seed without him, how is he the most valuable?

he doesn't make that much difference anymore, because the team is already so great.

[NumberSix]

law of diminishing returns? when the best player also has 2 other all star starters in his team, how is he valuable? If that team can still get top east seed without him, how is he the most valuable?

he doesn't make that much difference anymore, because the team is already so great.
You're not a smart person.

If I have a valuable painting, its value doesn't decrease if I get some more paintings. Now I just have multiple valuable painting. Not rocket science.

Simple fact, bitch about it all you want, but LeBron James has the highest +/- in the league. When he is on the court, his team out scores the opponent more than any player in the NBA. If that's not clear cut value, then I don't know what is.

[kshutts1]

In what possible scenario is someone who's the best that season not the most valuable?

What exactly do you think value means? In the NBA, it could only mean 1 of 2 things. Value for money or value for a roster spot. I don't think a single person seriously ranks player value for the award based on salary, so there's only one thing left. What you get for 1 roster slot. Who gives you more value for a roster slot than the best player of the season?

The NBA is not the NFL, but the following analogy shows, while somewhat flawed, shows the "law of diminishing returns" in terms of value.

Top NFL quarterbacks last year (there may be some disagreement, but that is neither here nor there):
Brady
Brees
Peyton
Rodgers
Eli
Ryan
Flacco

If the Patriots, in some impossible sequence of events, had both Brady AND Rodgers, does the value of each player not diminish accordingly? If Brady goes down, it is no longer "Oh crap, how will Ryan Mallett lead us to the playoffs?!?!" but the thinking would rather be "Oh.. well I guess Rodgers will still win us the SB. Sucks for Brady, though."

Team context 100% matters for "value" (hence the term). Team context does NOT matter for best.

[kshutts1]

You're not a smart person.

If I have a valuable painting, its value doesn't decrease if I get some more paintings. Now I just have multiple valuable painting. Not rocket science.

Simple fact, bitch about it all you want, but LeBron James has the highest +/- in the league. When he is on the court, his team out scores the opponent more than any player in the NBA. If that's not clear cut value, then I don't know what is.

To use your analogy, imagine you were only allowed to showcase 5 paintings at a time.

What is the point in spending ridiculous sums of money on paintings 6-10? They may be the 6th-10th best paintings in the world, but they hold no value for you.

[ripthekik]

You're not a smart person.

If I have a valuable painting, its value doesn't decrease if I get some more paintings. Now I just have multiple valuable painting. Not rocket science.

Simple fact, bitch about it all you want, but LeBron James has the highest +/- in the league. When he is on the court, his team out scores the opponent more than any player in the NBA. If that's not clear cut value, then I don't know what is.
lmao, this is where not going to college will hurt you, numbersix
:oldlol:

[NumberSix]

The NBA is not the NFL, but the following analogy shows, while somewhat flawed, shows the "law of diminishing returns" in terms of value.

Top NFL quarterbacks last year (there may be some disagreement, but that is neither here nor there):
Brady
Brees
Peyton
Rodgers
Eli
Ryan
Flacco

If the Patriots, in some impossible sequence of events, had both Brady AND Rodgers, does the value of each player not diminish accordingly? If Brady goes down, it is no longer "Oh crap, how will Ryan Mallett lead us to the playoffs?!?!" but the thinking would rather be "Oh.. well I guess Rodgers will still win us the SB. Sucks for Brady, though."

Team context 100% matters for "value" (hence the term). Team context does NOT matter for best.
Well, Rodgers is easily more valuable than Brady, so that scenario wouldn't even make sense.

If think your getting confused, by what "best" means. I specified "best that season". Obviously only one QB can play at a time. If Tom Brady rides the bench all season, he obviously didn't play the best that season. He didn't play at all.

[ripthekik]

Diminishing return exists in basketball because there is only 1 ball, and 5 spots on the court at once.

Do you think Iverson was more valuable to his 76ers team in 2001, or to the 2001 Eastern All-star team? Does he hold the same value?

Why do most production of players drop when they are playing in an all-star game, or during Olympics?

Barcelona 1992 Olympic Games
Barkley 18.0 pts / Jordan 14.9 pts

it's not rocket science, numbersix.. but you really should have went to school.

[kshutts1]

Well, Rodgers is easily more valuable than Brady, so that scenario wouldn't even make sense.

If think your getting confused, by what "best" means. I specified "best that season". Obviously only one QB can play at a time. If Tom Brady rides the bench all season, he obviously didn't play the best that season. He didn't play at all.

I guess you got me there :lol

But I believe you were purposefully ignoring the very valid point of the post.

[NumberSix]

To use your analogy, imagine you were only allowed to showcase 5 paintings at a time.

What is the point in spending ridiculous sums of money on paintings 6-10? They may be the 6th-10th best paintings in the world, but they hold no value for you.
A paintings value is not based on showcasing, it's based on resale value. It doesn't matter if I showcase a painting or not. It still holds the same resale value.

A players value is measured by how well they play. That's all.

You can try to do all the mental gymnastics you want, but whatever player played the best was definitively the most valuable.

[kshutts1]

A paintings value is based on showcasing, it's based on resale value. It doesn't matter if I showcase a painting or not. It still holds the same resale value.

A players value is measured by how well they play. That's all.

You can try to do all the mental gymnastics you want, but whatever player played the best was definitively the most valuable.

I have come to conclusion that you are talking about "monetary value" whereas I am talking about "impact-on-a-team value".

In terms of monetary value, I agree with you.

[Big Cheese]

The MVP has rarely been given to the player who is most valuable to their team. it is given to the player who had the best season individually and team wise.

so thats why LBJ is getting it.

[kshutts1]

The MVP has rarely been given to the player who is most valuable to their team. it is given to the player who had the best season individually and team wise.

so thats why LBJ is getting it.

Agree. I just disagree with things being done so improperly. Either call it "best player" award, or nominate a player for his value to his team.

[NumberSix]

I have come to conclusion that you are talking about "monetary value" whereas I am talking about "impact-on-a-team value".

In terms of monetary value, I agree with you.
You don't comprehend well. I specifically said I'm not talking about money.

The whole point of basketball is to out score the other team. When LeBron James is on the floor, his team out scores the opponent more than any player in the NBA. That's the value of his impact. That's literally more impact than any player in the NBA.

If impact = value, and LeBron has the highest impact of any player, then he clearly has the highest value.

This is not very complicated to understand.

[ripthekik]

If you take out any player from the USA Team, will it impact the same as much as their respective NBA teams?

-Melo out of USA, and out of Knicks
-Kobe out of USA, and out of Lakers
-Dwight out of USA, and out of Magics (his team then)
-Lebron out of USA, and out of Cavs (his team then)
-etc

It is clearly no, because there are other stars to step up, team USA can still win. We have clearly established that the same player has different value depending on the make-up of the team. This should be very clear to you, no?

Therefore a best player isn't always the most valuable player, because it depends on the make-up of his team. Makes sense now?

[kshutts1]

You don't comprehend well. I specifically said I'm not talking about money.

The whole point of basketball is to out score the other team. When LeBron James is on the floor, his team out scores the opponent more than any player in the NBA. That's the value of his impact. That's literally more impact than any player in the NBA.

If impact = value, and LeBron has the highest impact of any player, then he clearly has the highest value.

This is not very complicated to understand.

I can't have an intelligent discussion with someone that is so stubborn. One metric makes Lebron more valuable than any other player? Without even taking context into account? Ok.

[NumberSix]

If you take out any player from the USA Team, will it impact the same as much as their respective NBA teams?

-Melo out of USA, and out of Knicks
-Kobe out of USA, and out of Lakers
-Dwight out of USA, and out of Magics (his team then)
-Lebron out of USA, and out of Cavs (his team then)
-etc

It is clearly no, because there are other stars to step up, team USA can still win. We have clearly established that the same player has different value depending on the make-up of the team. This should be very clear to you, no?

Therefore a best player isn't always the most valuable player, because it depends on the make-up of his team. Makes sense now?
Team USA doesn't play in the NBA.

Anyhow, if team USA did play in the NBA, and LeBron scored like 14 points a game, then he wasn't the best player than season.

[NumberSix]

I can't have an intelligent discussion with someone that is so stubborn. One metric makes Lebron more valuable than any other player? Without even taking context into account? Ok.
How many metrics do you want?

Win shares
Offensive win shares
Per
+/-

How many do you need? Tell you what. Show me a metric where LeBron ISN'T the most valuable.

[ripthekik]

Team USA doesn't play in the NBA.

Anyhow, if team USA did play in the NBA, and LeBron scored like 14 points a game, then he wasn't the best player than season.
So you saw the point clear as day, and still won't give up? :oldlol:

The Miami Heat is the equivalent of USA in Olympics. Even missing Lebron, they've got other stars to step up. Other teams don't have that luxury, they miss their best player, and they're possibly out of the playoffs.

You wanted to see in what circumstances the best player wouldn't be the most valuable. And I showed you, numbersix.

Time to pay that tuition?

[kshutts1]

Sigh. I'm done.

[NumberSix]

So you saw the point clear as day, and still won't give up? :oldlol:

The Miami Heat is the equivalent of USA in Olympics. Even missing Lebron, they've got other stars to step up. Other teams don't have that luxury, they miss their best player, and they're possibly out of the playoffs.

You wanted to see in what circumstances the best player wouldn't be the most valuable. And I showed you, numbersix.

Time to pay that tuition?
Ok, let's just for the sake of argument assume that your stupid assertion that Miami is team USA is true. LeBron still played the best this season. If any other NBA played better this season, then that would be this seasons best player, not LeBron. But LeBron DID play the best.

[LikeABosh]

If you think Lebron isn't the MVP, tell me who you think deserves it and make a case for him, I'll wait.:coleman:

[ripthekik]

Ok, let's just for the sake of argument assume that your stupid assertion that Miami is team USA is true. LeBron still played the best this season. If any other NBA played better this season, then that would be this seasons best player, not LeBron. But LeBron DID play the best.
And I never said he wasn't the best player.

But we're talking Valuable here right? That's the whole point of this argument and conversation. You said him being the best = most valuable as well = MVP. I said he might be the best, but not the most valuable, therefore not as deserving.

So do you understand now that it is possible he is not the most valuable player?
This all started from your question:


In what possible scenario is someone who's the best that season not the most valuable?

[kshutts1]

If you think Lebron isn't the MVP, tell me who you think deserves it and make a case for him, I'll wait.:coleman:

I already made the case for John Wall.

Wizards are 5-23 without him (easily worst in the league), yet 24-25 with him (one or two wins from the 7th seed).

[NumberSix]

And I never said he wasn't the best player.

But we're talking Valuable here right? That's the whole point of this argument and conversation. You said him being the best = most valuable as well = MVP. I said he might be the best, but not the most valuable, therefore not as deserving.

So do you understand now that it is possible he is not the most valuable player?
This all started from your question:
You haven't given a scenario where the best isn't the most valuable. All you did was give a scenario where LeBron isn't the best.

[ripthekik]

You haven't given a scenario where the best isn't the most valuable. All you did was give a scenario where LeBron isn't the best.
:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

Take out Lebron, then Wade, Bosh, and Ray will step up and the team is still great.

Take out Wall (kshutt's example) and the team is 5-23.

How is this not clear to you?
If the best player's team is stacked, then he is not as valuable as the next best player, whose team is not stacked and depend heavily on him as he is the only star.

[dh144498]

You haven't given a scenario where the best isn't the most valuable. All you did was give a scenario where LeBron isn't the best.

2001 Iverson
2005-2006 Nash
2011 Rose
2007 Dirk

[chosen_one6]

You put LeBron on any team and they're in the playoffs. /discussion

[NumberSix]

2001 Iverson
2005-2006 Nash
2011 Rose
2007 Dirk
What point are you making?

[dh144498]

What point are you making?


You haven't given a scenario where the best isn't the most valuable. All you did was give a scenario where LeBron isn't the best.

they weren't the best players during those respective years but they won MVP.

[NumberSix]

they weren't the best players during those respective years but they won MVP.
Voting doesn't = truth. Just because it was voted that those players were the most valuable doesn't mean it's factually true.

[Rose'sACL]

Voting doesn't = truth. Just because it was voted that those players were the most valuable doesn't mean it's factually true.
I don't like you either but i feel bad watching this. that is ripthekik on 2 different accounts replying to you.

[ripthekik]

How is this not clear to you?
If the best player's team is stacked, then he is not as valuable as the next best player, whose team is not stacked and depend heavily on him as he is the only star.
Lol, still waiting for an answer to this. Maybe RoseACL can help you out.

[chosen_wun]

without lebron the team still wins 50 games
Well Bulls 93-94 won 55 games without the GOAT.

STFU and SMD.

[PJR]

The people who believe that the best way to measure a player's MVP worthiness is by estimating how awful the team would be without him, are pretty much morons.

That is all.

[Rose'sACL]

Lol, still waiting for an answer to this. Maybe RoseACL can help you out.
how can i? i just gave you the answer. heat would have been fighting for 1st seed going into last week of regular season if it wasn't for lebron and even for that wade would have had to play more minutes than 34.7 and way more games than 69 he played. he still was injured in bucks series. just think if he played like that for 80 games, 38-40 mins/game to secure 1st seed. we already know heat is resting him during playoffs, just think how worse his injury would be. he would probably have to give up #1 seed or playoffs. either way lebron helped him a lot by take 12 games lead on knicks.
Now you explain to me how am i wrong ?

[ripthekik]

how can i? i just gave you the answer. heat would have been fighting for 1st seed going into last week of regular season if it wasn't for lebron and even for that wade would have had to play more minutes than 34.7 and way more games than 69 he played. he still was injured in bucks series. just think if he played like that for 80 games, 38-40 mins/game to secure 1st seed. we already know heat is resting him during playoffs, just think how worse his injury would be. he would probably have to give up #1 seed or playoffs. either way lebron helped him a lot by take 12 games lead on knicks.
Now you explain to me how am i wrong ?
So let's say Wade does work his butt off, the Heat still ends up with the 1st seed.

The MVP award has nothing to do with the playoffs.
Heat with Lebron = 1st seed.
Heat without Lebron = 1st seed.
MVP?

Thank you.

[chosen_wun]

The people who believe that the best way to measure a player's MVP worthiness is by estimating how awful the team would be without him, are pretty much morons.

That is all.:applause:

[Solefade]

Well Bulls 93-94 won 55 games without the GOAT.

STFU and SMD.


:applause: :applause: :applause:


Honestly, ripthekik wins when you waste your time debating with him. Just don't do it, he has no logic nor can he back up any of his retarded claims with concrete information. He just brings up how LeBron has to play with Wade and Bosh to win championships.

[ripthekik]

:applause: :applause: :applause:


Honestly, ripthekik wins when you waste your time debating with him. Just don't do it, he has no logic nor can he back up any of his retarded claims with concrete information. He just brings up how LeBron has to play with Wade and Bosh to win championships.
Meanwhile I am tossing logic and arguments in this thread while you sit speechless in the sidelines and pop up only to toss childish insults like a baby.

:rolleyes:

[dh144498]

Voting doesn't = truth. Just because it was voted that those players were the most valuable doesn't mean it's factually true.

so what is factually true? Anything that follows an agenda?

[Rose'sACL]

So let's say Wade does work his butt off, the Heat still ends up with the 1st seed.

The MVP award has nothing to do with the playoffs.
Heat with Lebron = 1st seed.
Heat without Lebron = 1st seed.
MVP?

Thank you.
Unless you think wade is an idiot, he would give up #1 seed to play in playoffs. they will probably end up #3 seed if he played 69 games and 34.7 mins a game. how is improving a team that would have ended near indiana's record to league' best record a small achievement?
I think he will not even play 69 games if team relied him too much in playoffs, he and heat's coaching staff would have probably made him play near 65 game given the state of his body.i am just helping you by taking 69 as the number of games.


so what is factually true? Anything that follows an agenda?
just reply with your original account rip. why using 2 in the same thread?

[ripthekik]

Unless you think wade is an idiot, he would give up #1 seed to play in playoffs. they will probably end up #3 seed if he played 69 games and 34.7 mins a game. how is improving a team that would have ended near indiana's record to league' best record a small achievement?
I think he will not even play 69 games if team relied him too much in playoffs, he and heat's coaching staff would have probably made him play near 65 game given the state of his body.i am just helping you by taking 69 as the number of games.
A lot of games Wade rested simply because he can, not because of the extent of his injury. Sore knee? Rest. Why? Because the Heat have no problem carrying on without him. That's why it's possible for him to play over 69 games, doing exactly what Kobe did.

Now, I think it's entirely possible for Heat to win over 50 games. Indiana is at 49 games. If they win 50 games, they're 2nd seed. If they win 55 games, they're first seed.

How is that a big drop off?

We all also saw how great the Heat bench played when the big 3 were resting. Mike Miller scoring over 20, Reshard Lewis, etc.

[NumberSix]

San Antonio would win 13 games without Kawhi Leonard. Why? Because I say so.

Therefore, Kawhi Leonard is the MVP.

[Trollsmasher]

A lot of games Wade rested simply because he can, not because of the extent of his injury. Sore knee? Rest. Why? Because the Heat have no problem carrying on without him. That's why it's possible for him to play over 69 games, doing exactly what Kobe did.

Now, I think it's entirely possible for Heat to win over 50 games. Indiana is at 49 games. If they win 50 games, they're 2nd seed. If they win 55 games, they're first seed.

How is that a big drop off?

We all also saw how great the Heat bench played when the big 3 were resting. Mike Miller scoring over 20, Reshard Lewis, etc.
66-16
50-32

Not a big dropoff.

#ripthekikgaylogic:facepalm

[ripthekik]

66-16
50-32

Not a big dropoff.

#ripthekikgaylogic:facepalm
1st seed, 2nd seed. And I was using 50 games as the bare minimum, the worst they'd do.

Do you have anything other than childish insults and following me around? And do you have anything against gay people? Speak up.

[Rose'sACL]

A lot of games Wade rested simply because he can, not because of the extent of his injury. Sore knee? Rest. Why? Because the Heat have no problem carrying on without him. That's why it's possible for him to play over 69 games, doing exactly what Kobe did.

Now, I think it's entirely possible for Heat to win over 50 games. Indiana is at 49 games. If they win 50 games, they're 2nd seed. If they win 55 games, they're first seed.

How is that a big drop off?

We all also saw how great the Heat bench played when the big 3 were resting. Mike Miller scoring over 20, Reshard Lewis, etc.
we also saw lakers win against 2 above .500 teams when kobe was injured. your point?
also, wade had to rest during bucks playoff game. how do you know that he would not have inured himself even worse if he had to play 80 games. use one account please. use 2 different browsers if it is hard to keep track on 2 windows of same browser.

66-16
50-32

Not a big dropoff.

#ripthekikgaylogic:facepalm
owned.

[ripthekik]

we also saw lakers win against 2 above .500 teams when kobe was injured. your point?
also, wade had to rest during bucks playoff game. how do you know that he would not have inured himself even worse if he had to play 80 games. use one account please. use 2 different browsers if it is hard to keep track on 2 windows of same browser.

owned.
Point is, no matter what, Heat can easily be a top 1 or 2 seed without Lebron. Are you Heat fans denying this? If not, what's so valuable?

If another team for example Houston loses Harden and drops out of the playoffs, isn't he more valuable?

I'm not saying he's MVP. I'm just saying, Lebron's not the most valuable.

[Trollsmasher]

1st seed, 2nd seed. And I was using 50 games as the bare minimum, the worst they'd do.

Do you have anything other than childish insults and following me around? And do you have anything against gay people? Speak up.
It is not about seeding. It is about quality of the team. They might get 1st or 2nd seed, but the team is much worse.

50-32
34-48

This isn't a big dropoff?

I have no problem saying that I am a homophobe.

[ripthekik]

I have no problem saying that I am a homophobe.
Gotcha.

[alleykat]

You are not the only person to use this playoff argument, but rather the most recent.

MVP is a regular season award. Ask Dirk. It does not include the playoffs, nor what it expected of said team come playoff time.

That being said, the Heat would still be the #1 seed in the LEast without Lebron. How much "value" does that really bring? In a playoff sense, yes, Lebron is probably the MVP. The Heat would be favorites to come out of the East, but would NOT be title favorites (without Lebron), but with him they are. So he is the playoff MVP in my books.

But the regular season MVP? No. That is reserved for a player whose subtraction (hypothetical or real) greatly reduces the team's win total, which obviously includes the chance to make the playoffs.

My choice?
Team without my player? 5-28 (easily the worst team in the league)
Team with my player? 24-25 (in a fight for the eighth seed, with an outside shot at 7th)


That player? John Wall of the Washington Wizards. There is tangible evidence of his value, and that value pertains to exactly what the MVP should be about. The team is obviously, noticeably worse without him playing, yet with him they are a team worth paying attention to, one which you need to play one of your better games to beat them.

Even taking a hypothetical approach to other top teams without their best players...

Lakers without Kobe would arguably still be a 7th or 8th seed.. maybe 9th. But by no means the worst team in the league.

Thunder without Durant would not be the best team in the West anymore, but they'd probably be a around the 4/5/6 range.

Spurs without Duncan or Parker (but not both) is one of the trickiest situations... Popp sits his players regularly, and the team still competes, but that's a game-to-game basis and not an extended layoff. I think the team would suffer more if Parker was out for an extended period of time, but that "suffering" would probably still amount to a 4/5/6, similar to the Thunder, rather than the 2 seed they got.

Bulls without Rose... oh, wait. We saw that. 6 seed.

No.....this is about the most valuable player in the league, not the the most needed on their team. That's why MVP is a single award, because two people on the same team can be fighting for the same award. They may be teammates, but when it comes to MVP you're on your own.

This explanation you put forward is more like a blow towards a player's team, emphasizing how bad they are

[pegasus]

The people who believe that the best way to measure a player's MVP worthiness is by estimating how awful the team would be without him, are pretty much morons.

That is all.
What were you saying when the Cavs had the worst record in the NBA in 2011? They had lost their entire starting-5 to injuries and free agency, and you Lebron trolls were trying to make it seem like it was all because of his departure. Isn't that the same thing?

[Lebron23]

Best player on the best team in the NBA
He led the Heat in Major statistical categories
Fist Perimeter player since Mid 1990's Jordan to averaged 26.8 or more points on 56 FG%.

[Trollsmasher]

Best player on the best team in the NBA
He led the Heat in Major statistical categories
Fist Perimeter player since Mid 1990's Jordan to averaged 26.8 or more points on 56 FG%.
:biggums: Jordan never shot that high from the field

[chosen_wun]

Best player on the best team in the NBA
He led the Heat in Major statistical categories
Fist Perimeter player since Mid 1990's Jordan to averaged 26.8 or more points on 56 FG%.
More like Adrian Dantley.

Jordan wasn't that efficient.

[Lebron23]

More like Adrian Dantley.

Jordan wasn't that efficient.

:cheers:

[jimmy77x]

This thread is new and refreshing,will read again after 10+ pages of the same arguments.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-o9MGphc_jgw/UVSo11dql8I/AAAAAAAALIo/IWWSBoxTDFg/s1600/thumbs-up.gif

[PJR]

What were you saying when the Cavs had the worst record in the NBA in 2011? They had lost their entire starting-5 to injuries and free agency, and you Lebron trolls were trying to make it seem like it was all because of his departure. Isn't that the same thing?

I wasn't one to make those claims, numbnuts. I'm not a "LeBron troll". I couldn't care less what happened to the Cleveland Cavaliers.

[lebeast666]

How are the Heat a #1 seeded team without LeBron :biggums:

Wade would have to play more minutes and hes already experiencing problems with his knee. And does LeBron all of a sudden not exist in the league anymore? He would have to be playing on another team in the East :confusedshrug: He would probably win the MVP on a different team being the #1 seed, not the Heat.

[TheReal Kendall]

I've already made a thread about this and got flamed for it. People just don't understand

[Kingwillball]

I've already made a thread about this and got flamed for it. People just don't understand


What don't they understand ?

[DatAsh]

This thread is new and refreshing,will read again after 10+ pages of the same arguments.
:lol

My thoughts exactly.

[russwest0]

How are the Heat a #1 seeded team without LeBron :biggums:

Wade would have to play more minutes and hes already experiencing problems with his knee. And does LeBron all of a sudden not exist in the league anymore? He would have to be playing on another team in the East :confusedshrug: He would probably win the MVP on a different team being the #1 seed, not the Heat.

Yes, if he was on a less stacked team and they were the 1st seed he would and SHOULD win the MVP.

If MVP is most valuable player in the league and not to his team then why did Rose win the award 2 years ago? :wtf:

[NumberSix]

Yes, if he was on a less stacked team and they were the 1st seed he would and SHOULD win the MVP.

If MVP is most valuable player in the league and not to his team then why did Rose win the award 2 years ago? :wtf:
Who the fcuk knows?