"I don't know my ceiling." -LeBron James

[Doctor Rivers]

Do you know what his ceiling is?

[Kurosawa0]

His ceiling has always been the greatest player ever. I really doubt he gets there, but it's always been on the table for LeBron.

[Iceberg Slim]

His ceiling has always been the greatest player ever. I really doubt he gets there, but it's always been on the table for LeBron.

this

I hope KD doesn't become Malone and doesn't win because LeBron is around

[Kblaze8855]

Id say 4th greatest player of all time. I dont see him accomplishing enough to knock MJ, Russell, or Kareem down as far as "greatness". If we are talking how good you are at basketball...id say maybe...6-8th? Depending on what I do with the Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq group. To me closer to 8th or 9th is where id put him. Some will no doubt go higher.

[Doranku]

His ceiling has always been the greatest player ever. I really doubt he gets there, but it's always been on the table for LeBron.

:roll: That ship sailed a LONG time ago. If you get outscored by Jason Terry in the finals, you have no case for GOAT. Ever. Period.

There's really no discussion to be had.

[DatAsh]

Id say 4th greatest player of all time. I dont see him accomplishing enough to knock MJ, Russell, or Kareem down as far as "greatness". If we are talking how good you are at basketball...id say maybe...6-8th? Depending on what I do with the Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq group. To me closer to 8th or 9th is where id put him. Some will no doubt go higher.

I've never liked the distinction between "greatest" and "best". For me, they're the same thing.

[bmd]

:roll: That ship sailed a LONG time ago. If you get outscored by Jason Terry in the finals, you have no case for GOAT. Ever. Period.

There's really no discussion to be had.Players can't improve? You are a simple mind.

[Kblaze8855]

Except if you are gonna call them the same thing one would have to assume George Mikan would be the best center in the NBA. Which is just....absurd.

How good you are and where you are ranked are not the same thing. I guess you can call them the same...but then you need something else to describe who plays basketball the best.

[bagelred]

He don't know his ceiling? Just look UP, fool!

[Goldrush25]

:roll: That ship sailed a LONG time ago. If you get outscored by Jason Terry in the finals, you have no case for GOAT. Ever. Period.

There's really no discussion to be had.

If you possess intelligence there is always a discussion to be had. When facts change most intelligent people change their viewpoints.

Most simple people keep the same viewpoints irrespective of the facts.

[Foster5k]

Lebron may not know his ceiling, however we pretty much have it figured out.

First off, he can not surpass Michael Jordan. Jordan's achievements, stats, global impact, what he did for the league, his iconic status, etc is just unobtainable for Lebron James. Lebron may have taken the Cavs to a NBA Finals, however he also got swept. This is something that the G.O.A.T would not have let happened. Jordan would of at least won one to three games versus the Spurs by himself. He might would of willed him teammates to play better and ultimately win the series. Who knows. What we do know is that he wouldn't have gotten swept, based on his past achievements/stats, etc.

Secondly, Lebron layed one of the biggest eggs versus the Mavericks in the 2011 NBA Finals. Certainly, for a player of his caliber, for someone wanting G.O.A.T status, this is highly unacceptable. Michael Jordan would of won that series by himself. He would of out played Dirk. He would of willed his teammates past the 2011 Mavericks. The trash talk would not have effected him. He would of played better. He would of showed the world why he is Michael Jordan, the greatest of all time.

Those two facts alone makes him lesser than Jordan. Not to mention the stats, championships, global impact, etc.

So, he will not and cannot eclipse Jordan.

Then we have the big men. Bill Russell, Wilt, etc. I wouldn't put him above those guys.

So, in the end, I think he'll end up above Kobe. It will be Lebron then Kobe, etc. But, that is if he can keep up his current progess, etc.

[Doranku]

Players can't improve? You are a simple mind.

He was in his prime, on a stacked team, and had homecourt advantage. Yet he was outplayed by a bench player and cost his team the series with his passiveness and nonexistent 4th quarter play.

I'm sorry, but nobody is ever going to consider him GOAT with that black mark on his resume. And the worst part is... that wasn't even his worst finals performance. He was even worse in 2007 against the Spurs.

He'll never have an argument over Michael as GOAT. Ever.

[I.R.Beast]

Top 15-20 ever...needing wade and bosh to win a title hurts his case also choking with wade and bosh hurts his case. If he does'nt get another ring with those 2 guys that also hurts his case. His efficiency will continue to be inflated as long as wade and bosh are around to take offensive load off of him, so that will help.... But i dont see him cracking top 5...top 10 maybe..small maybe.

[Haymaker]

Top 15-20 ever...needing wade and bosh to win a title hurts his case also choking with wade and bosh hurts his case. If he does get another ring with those 2 guys that also hurts his case. His efficiency will continue to be inflated as long as wade and bosh are around to take offensive load off of him, so that will help.... But i dont see him cracking top 5...top 10 maybe..small maybe. This :applause:

[Doranku]

If you possess intelligence there is always a discussion to be had. When facts change most intelligent people change their viewpoints.

Most simple people keep the same viewpoints irrespective of the facts.

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.

[Rose'sACL]

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.
it erased jordan's first round failures.

[Lebron23]

This :applause:


@Ripthekik's sock account aka IR Beast aka the douche bag from Taiwan.

LeBron is already a top 11 player of all time. If he wins his 2nd Finals MVP he will be a top 7-8 player of all time. And next season if he wins his 5th MVP and 3rd Finals MVP I'll put him above Shaq, Duncan, and Bird.

[ThatsGame]

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.

The season was shortened for all teams.

[Trollsmasher]

Lebron may not know his ceiling, however we pretty much have it figured out.

First off, he can not surpass Michael Jordan. Jordan's achievements, stats, global impact, what he did for the league, his iconic status, etc is just unobtainable for Lebron James. Lebron may have taken the Cavs to a NBA Finals, however he also got swept. This is something that the G.O.A.T would not have let happened. Jordan would of at least won one to three games versus the Spurs by himself. He might would of willed him teammates to play better and ultimately win the series. Who knows. What we do know is that he wouldn't have gotten swept, based on his past achievements/stats, etc.

Secondly, Lebron layed one of the biggest eggs versus the Mavericks in the 2011 NBA Finals. Certainly, for a player of his caliber, for someone wanting G.O.A.T status, this is highly unacceptable. Michael Jordan would of won that series by himself. He would of out played Dirk. He would of willed his teammates past the 2011 Mavericks. The trash talk would not have effected him. He would of played better. He would of showed the world why he is Michael Jordan, the greatest of all time.

Those two facts alone makes him lesser than Jordan. Not to mention the stats, championships, global impact, etc.

So, he will not and cannot eclipse Jordan.

Then we have the big men. Bill Russell, Wilt, etc. I wouldn't put him above those guys.

So, in the end, I think he'll end up above Kobe. It will be Lebron then Kobe, etc. But, that is if he can keep up his current progess, etc.
Jordan would be lucky to get that team into the playoffs.
Then he would proceed to get swept in the 1st round as was his good habit.

[bmd]

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.Kobe, in one of his most statistically impressive seasons, barely made the playoffs when he was on a stacked team this year.

He failed.

He drops way down my list now.

[Doranku]

Kobe, in one of his most statistically impressive seasons, barely made the playoffs when he was on a stacked team this year.

He failed.

He drops way down my list now.

That "stacked team" put up historically bad numbers (2nd worst scoring output in playoff history) and got swept by an average of 15+ points per game. I think that's the opposite of stacked, actually.

But congratulations on bringing up something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.

:facepalm How does that disqualify the ring?

[chosen_one6]

Top 15-20 ever...needing wade and bosh to win a title hurts his case also choking with wade and bosh hurts his case. If he does get another ring with those 2 guys that also hurts his case. His efficiency will continue to be inflated as long as wade and bosh are around to take offensive load off of him, so that will help.... But i dont see him cracking top 5...top 10 maybe..small maybe.

Maybe not in your opinion but luckily this isn't a dictatorship where you're at the helm.

LeBron is 28 years old...he still has a good 6-7 years in him. That's A LOT of time for him to put in work. He's already top 15-20 now, what makes you think he's going to stay there? :lol

A couple more rings, and he's vaulted into the top 10 regardless of what the doubters and naysayers opinions are. anything more than 3 rings and people will be talking about LeBron as a top 5 player.

His game is still evolving, he's still getting better, but these ni***'s can't take off their blinders to witness a great player when we have one.

[Rose'sACL]

Jordan would be lucky to get that team into the playoffs.
Then he would proceed to get swept in the 1st round as was his good habit.
that guy is a troll. he thinks lebron has same chance at improving rating as jordan. the fact is that last year's finals which ended 4-1 were the most watched finals since 2003 . keep in mind there was a celtics-lakers finals a few years ago. I don't have ratings for finals till 2003 so i can't comment on rating before that.

LeBron has helped NBA a lot in increasing viewership. During Jordan's time, market was a lot less saturated.

[DatAsh]

Except if you are gonna call them the same thing one would have to assume George Mikan would be the best center in the NBA. Which is just....absurd.

How good you are and where you are ranked are not the same thing. I guess you can call them the same...but then you need something else to describe who plays basketball the best.

I never saw Mikan play, but I've got no problem imagining that someone of his size and talent, born in 1980s, could be the best center in the league today. Mikan may have played in a different league than the guys that came 15 years later. The shot clock wasn't introduced until the very end of his career, guys like Sweetwater Clifton, Chuck Cooper, and Earl Lloyd were rare. Both of those are valid criticisms that should be taken into account when assessing his greatness, but ultimately, he still won 5 nba/baa championships as the best player in the league, averaging 23/13/3 on 40%

[Doranku]

:facepalm How does that disqualify the ring?

When did I say that it did? Are you blind?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

When did I say that it did? Are you blind?

Then why the hell did you feel the need to mention it? It's obvious what you were implying.

[kamil]

Lebron may not know his ceiling, however we pretty much have it figured out.

First off, he can not surpass Michael Jordan. Jordan's achievements, stats, global impact, what he did for the league, his iconic status, etc is just unobtainable for Lebron James. Lebron may have taken the Cavs to a NBA Finals, however he also got swept. This is something that the G.O.A.T would not have let happened. Jordan would of at least won one to three games versus the Spurs by himself. He might would of willed him teammates to play better and ultimately win the series. Who knows. What we do know is that he wouldn't have gotten swept, based on his past achievements/stats, etc.

Secondly, Lebron layed one of the biggest eggs versus the Mavericks in the 2011 NBA Finals. Certainly, for a player of his caliber, for someone wanting G.O.A.T status, this is highly unacceptable. Michael Jordan would of won that series by himself. He would of out played Dirk. He would of willed his teammates past the 2011 Mavericks. The trash talk would not have effected him. He would of played better. He would of showed the world why he is Michael Jordan, the greatest of all time.

Those two facts alone makes him lesser than Jordan. Not to mention the stats, championships, global impact, etc.

So, he will not and cannot eclipse Jordan.

Then we have the big men. Bill Russell, Wilt, etc. I wouldn't put him above those guys.

So, in the end, I think he'll end up above Kobe. It will be Lebron then Kobe, etc. But, that is if he can keep up his current progess, etc.

Its 'Would have' , not 'would of'

[chosen_wun]

Ceiling is Karl Malone with PG skills.

[bmd]

That "stacked team" put up historically bad numbers (2nd worst scoring output in playoff history) and got swept by an average of 15+ points per game. I think that's the opposite of stacked, actually.

But congratulations on bringing up something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.It was a stacked team. Everybody was saying before the season that they should just hand the Lakers the title now.

Kobe couldn't be a leader and will his team to a title.

He drops way down my list now with that black mark on his record.

[Rose'sACL]

Its 'Would have' , not 'would of'
I have no idea why so many people make that mistake. All my friends and even my younger cousins don't make that mistake and they are always messaging on their phones.

[alenleomessi]

2nd after Jordan has always been his ceiling.

[Doranku]

It was a stacked team. Everybody was saying before the season that they should just hand the Lakers the title now.

Kobe couldn't be a leader and will his team to a title.

He drops way down my list now with that black mark on his record.

So people's perception matters more than actual results?

Well, that settles it then. Kobe won the Player of the Decade vote by a landslide.

Kobe > Duncan
Kobe > Shaq

:bowdown:

[Foster5k]

As stated, Lebron James has 0% chance to surpass Michael Jordan. Then you have the big guys like Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem, etc. He will not rank above them either. So, like I stated, he'll be somewhere Kobe is right now. That's it. Lebron layed two eggs in two seperate NBA Finals. That is unexcusable.

[kamil]

I have no idea why so many people make that mistake. All my friends and even my younger cousins don't make that mistake and they are always messaging on their phones.

It may be autocorrect. But for the most part I blame kids not paying attention in English class. 'alot' is another pet peeve of mine.

[hybridLB]

People talking about the 4-0 series vs the Spurs and the 2011 Mavs Finals.. Of course he had a tough time then.. but that doesn't mean it's something to be imprinted on him..showed it Last year especially when he battled the Celtics.. and taking the Final in 5 against OKC (a team that's more stacked than the Heat even..anyone saying otherwise can GTFO)..

His ceiling is 2nd Best of All time behind Jordan..

[bmd]

So people's perception matters more than actual results?

Well, that settles it then. Kobe won the Player of the Decade vote by a landslide.

Kobe > Duncan
Kobe > Shaq

:bowdown:That makes no sense. We all know a team of Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, and Ron Artest is a stacked team.

Stop acting like they are just any other team.

[Trollsmasher]

As stated, Lebron James has 0% chance to surpass Michael Jordan. Then you have the big guys like Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem, etc. He will not rank above them either. So, like I stated, he'll be somewhere Kobe is right now. That's it. Lebron layed two eggs in two seperate NBA Finals. That is unexcusable.
He already is where Kobe is now. Are you implying that he is not going to climb higher?

[sportjames23]

Lebron may not know his ceiling, however we pretty much have it figured out.

First off, he can not surpass Michael Jordan. Jordan's achievements, stats, global impact, what he did for the league, his iconic status, etc is just unobtainable for Lebron James. Lebron may have taken the Cavs to a NBA Finals, however he also got swept. This is something that the G.O.A.T would not have let happened. Jordan would of at least won one to three games versus the Spurs by himself. He might would of willed him teammates to play better and ultimately win the series. Who knows. What we do know is that he wouldn't have gotten swept, based on his past achievements/stats, etc.

Secondly, Lebron layed one of the biggest eggs versus the Mavericks in the 2011 NBA Finals. Certainly, for a player of his caliber, for someone wanting G.O.A.T status, this is highly unacceptable. Michael Jordan would of won that series by himself. He would of out played Dirk. He would of willed his teammates past the 2011 Mavericks. The trash talk would not have effected him. He would of played better. He would of showed the world why he is Michael Jordan, the greatest of all time.

Those two facts alone makes him lesser than Jordan. Not to mention the stats, championships, global impact, etc.

So, he will not and cannot eclipse Jordan.

Then we have the big men. Bill Russell, Wilt, etc. I wouldn't put him above those guys.

So, in the end, I think he'll end up above Kobe. It will be Lebron then Kobe, etc. But, that is if he can keep up his current progess, etc.


Summed it all up.

[kamil]

As stated, Lebron James has 0% chance to surpass Michael Jordan. Then you have the big guys like Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem, etc. He will not rank above them either. So, like I stated, he'll be somewhere Kobe is right now.

I still can't get over the collusion with wade and bosh. That should hurt Lebron's legacy the most. Couldn't win in Cleveland, bounced and took a shortcut.

I've never seen any superstar do that, nor have I ever heard any of the greatest athletes in any other sport sink to that level.

[Doranku]

That makes no sense. We all know a team of Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, and Ron Artest is a stacked team.

Stop acting like they are just any other team.

Quite the contrary, they're certainly not just any other team. As I pointed out earlier, they put up historically bad numbers against the Spurs.

They would have lost to any of the other 15 playoff teams in a 7 game series. If anything, Kobe's legacy is only boosted from dragging those deadbeats into the playoffs. Poor guy ran himself into the ground in his 17th season just to get his team in.

What a warrior. :applause:

[LikeABosh]

Top 15-20 ever...needing wade and bosh to win a title hurts his case also choking with wade and bosh hurts his case. If he does get another ring with those 2 guys that also hurts his case. His efficiency will continue to be inflated as long as wade and bosh are around to take offensive load off of him, so that will help.... But i dont see him cracking top 5...top 10 maybe..small maybe.
If Lebron wins the FMVP this season he will already be top 10 in a lot of people's list.:oldlol:

[DatAsh]

This is something that the G.O.A.T would not have let happened. Jordan would of at least won one to three games versus the Spurs by himself. He might would of willed him teammates to play better and ultimately win the series. Who knows. What we do know is that he wouldn't have gotten swept, based on his past achievements/stats, etc.



There's simply no way we can make this sort of absolute claim. Maybe it would happen the way you say it would, maybe it wouldn't.

[chosen_one6]

Quite the contrary, they're certainly not just any other team. As I pointed out earlier, they put up historically bad numbers against the Spurs.

They would have lost to any of the other 15 playoff teams in a 7 game series. If anything, Kobe's legacy is only boosted from dragging those deadbeats into the playoffs. Poor guy ran himself into the ground in his 17th season just to get his team in.

What a warrior. :applause:

I really wish the Lakers would not have made the playoffs just to see what blind homers like you would say. You're delusional.

[K Xerxes]

I've never liked the distinction between "greatest" and "best". For me, they're the same thing.

I would classify it as peak performance vs career achievements. For example, Shaq would be a top 3 player of all time for me if we're taking down his 00-02 dominance (particularly 00) against the rest of the field, but he's about 9th or 10th on my GOAT list because he couldn't sustain that period of dominance over a prolonged stretch. Kareem is second greatest for me, even though I believe there are a few players at their peak better than him.

IMO, LeBron's ceiling is best player of all time, but I don't think he can be greatest of all time (because of '11 and some Cavs moments). If he can refine his FT shooting (his next target), as well as continue improving on his mid-range and outside shot, he will have a case for the best peak player of all time. We could be sitting here in five years time and say that '12-'16 LeBron for example was the most all-round dominant player ever. He's on his way. We'll see.

[kurple]

He don't know his ceiling? Just look UP, fool!
what if he's outside?

sky's the limit?

[Doranku]

I really wish the Lakers would not have made the playoffs just to see what blind homers like you would say. You're delusional.

Explain to me how I'm delusional. Did the Lakers not put up the second worst scoring output in NBA playoff history?

Did they not suffer a franchise worst home loss?

Did they not get swept by an average of 15+ points per game?

[leMVP]

His ceiling is to Dethrone this man from the crown

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8bZrXJD84ts/USZEoL_nxkI/AAAAAAAABKw/Mx-n9JEZdLU/s1600/MJs+Trophies.png

[bmd]

Explain to me how I'm delusional. Did the Lakers not put up the second worst scoring output in NBA playoff history?

Did they not suffer a franchise worst home loss?

Did they not get swept by an average of 15+ points per game?If the Heat did as bad as the Lakers did this year... would they not be stacked either with LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Ray Allen?

Results don't make a team stacked.

The collection of players do.

[Lakers_Kobe_Fan]

Do you know what his ceiling is?

Dont care...


He basically changed MANs game into a frat thing

[DaSeba5]

The sky is the limit really.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

If the Heat did as bad as the Lakers did this year... would they not be stacked either with LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Ray Allen?

Results don't make a team stacked.

The collection of players do.

Don't bother. It won't go through his thick head.

[2010splash]

Ceiling is GOAT, floor is top 2 all-time. Lots of idiots think guys like Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem and Wilt were perfect players who never underachieved in the playoffs/finals. All of them were clearly worse players than LeBron and had several stains on their career resumes. They all choked in crucial playoff series/finals.

Jordan is the only player who will be tough to surpass, but it's a possibility. He'd need 6-7 MVP's and 4 titles to be comparable. Both are within his reach. But everyone else can be passed pretty easily. 4 MVP's at age 28 and most likely 2 Finals MVP's.

[jzek]

Second all-time behind Jordan after he wins at least two more titles.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If James reaches 12+ total Championships as his team's best player or MVP awards combined (so that the total is 12 or more, hopefully this confuses no one) then we can seriously discuss the possibility that he's had the greatest career ever. Until then to me he's a lock to come up short to MJ, Kareem, Russell and Chamberlain.

[Doranku]

If the Heat did as bad as the Lakers did this year... would they not be stacked either with LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Ray Allen?

Results don't make a team stacked.

The collection of players do.

So a label given to a team by fans based on popularity of names is more important than how these players actually perform on the court?

:roll:

[LBJ 23]

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.


:applause: for getting on the level of ripthekik, kennethgriffin, 9empire....

Actually, you were always on their level with your inteligence, it's just that you didn't show that with your posts when rep was around

[tgan3]

Ceiling: MJ combined with Magic's size, passing skill - GOAT PLAYER

Worst Case: (If he retired right now, about fringe Top 20 All Time) Slightly ahead of Rick Barry

I disagree to those who say he can't surpass Michael. Who's to say that? If he wins another 7,8 or 9 championships in his lifetime. What's stopping him from being considered GOAT?

[ripthekik]

my fellow ISHers be spitting out the truth without me chiming in. This is a great day on ISH :applause:

No other top 10 GOAT has had to join with another top 3 player purposely, and none of them had to ring chase in their primes. Lebron is the only FMVP to ring chase in his prime.

End of story. Again, great job guys. I'm happy to see the april 2013 lebron fans haven't completed taken over ISH yet :applause:

[bmd]

So a label given to a team by fans based on popularity of names is more important than how these players actually perform on the court?

:roll:That is what stacked means. Stacked with good players.

[2010splash]

Russell = career 15 ppg player, terrible advanced stats and efficiency. Nowhere near as dominant offensively as LeBron. In sum, just a worse individual player.

Kareem = way overrated, rode Magic's coattails to like 3-4 titles, never carried the load like LeBron did last year and basically won a few titles averaging weak numbers like 19/7. When he was dominating individually, he barely won anything (see: 1970's). LOL, LeBron is much better.

Wilt = 4 MVPs, 2 titles. LeBron at age 28 = 4 MVPs, 2 titles. What's the difference?

Jordan = yes, perfect career, perfect stats, perfect player, has literally everything. Career was basically stainless and will be hard to duplicate. But LeBron has time. May not happen, but it's not impossible. He'll easily pass everyone else though. Anyone doubting this is just in denial and overrating past players and ignoring their shortcomings.

[kurple]

lol. you mention Russel's stats but forget to mention his 11 rings. Good luck beating that lebron

[2010splash]

lol. you mention Russel's stats but forget to mention his 11 rings. Good luck beating that lebron
So what? Jordan has only 6 rings compared to Russell's 11 and is unanimously considered the far superior player.

LeBron is much better than Russell. If he played in the weak 50's and 60's he would have won 11 titles easily against those scrubs.

Career 15 PPG average and 44 FG%. LeBron will struggle mightily to match those career numbers! :roll: :roll:

[Doranku]

That is what stacked means. Stacked with good players.
A lot of teams have a collection of good players. What sets apart a 39 year old Nash, declining Gasol, and injured Dwight Howard from these other good teams?

Hell, they were all injured for extended stretches throughout the year.

[jzek]

lol. you mention Russel's stats but forget to mention his 11 rings. Good luck beating that lebron

Russell had SIX Hall of Fame teammates when he won those 11 titles. LBJ only has one *possible* HoF teammate (Wade)!

[Doranku]

:applause: for getting on the level of ripthekik, kennethgriffin, 9empire....

Actually, you were always on their level with your inteligence, it's just that you didn't show that with your posts when rep was around

Why are people so butthurt that I brought up the fact that he won in a shortened season? :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Russell = career 15 ppg player, terrible advanced stats and efficiency. Nowhere near as dominant offensively as LeBron. In sum, just a worse individual player.11 rings, 5 MVPs, arguably the greatest defender the game has ever seen.


Kareem = way overrated, rode Magic's coattails to like 3-4 titles, never carried the load like LeBron did last year and basically won a few titles averaging weak numbers like 19/7. When he was dominating individually, he barely won anything (see: 1970's). LOL, LeBron is much better. He didn't average under 20 until he was 39. That's incredible. Do you have any appreciation or understanding for the history of the game at all? Basketball existed before 2006.


Wilt = 4 MVPs, 2 titles. LeBron at age 28 = 4 MVPs, 2 titles. What's the difference? I guess not.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I'd say hes ceiling is 3 quarters.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Russell had SIX Hall of Fame teammates when he won those 11 titles. LBJ only has one *possible* HoF teammate (Wade)!
Russell did not have all 6 of those guys at the same time and if Miami wins again this year I'd guarantee Bosh is headed for the Hall.

[tazb]

Next 6 years play the point-forward, then the next 6 years he's going to be the next Hakeem Olajuwon.

[Phenith]

If he can dominate the game for at least another half decade which is completely reasonable, he will undeniably be a top 5 GOAT. If he can put another half decade beyond that of top 10 player in the league play(which might be a stretch depending on how he adapts his game and breaks down physically), he can MAYBE break the top 3.
He would have to go on a serious run of championships and FMVP to even have a shot at MJ or Wilt... he could catch Kareem with a solid mixed result though.

[tgan3]

my fellow ISHers be spitting out the truth without me chiming in. This is a great day on ISH :applause:

No other top 10 GOAT has had to join with another top 3 player purposely, and none of them had to ring chase in their primes. Lebron is the only FMVP to ring chase in his prime.

End of story. Again, great job guys. I'm happy to see the april 2013 lebron fans haven't completed taken over ISH yet :applause:

You think Jordan didnt had help?

Pippen - Arguably GOAT defender
Rodman - Arguably GOAT rebounder
Kerr- Greatest 3pt shooter ( in terms of 3pt% )

[LBJ 23]

Why are people so butthurt that I brought up the fact that he won in a shortened season? :roll:

Like one poster before me said, you were clearly implying that because of the shortened season that ring should somehow mean less than rings won in other seasons. Don't even try to be smart now with ''I just brought up the fact'' when it's clear as day what were you implying.

Like I said, arguments on the inteligence level of kenethgrifin,alphawolf, ripthekik,.... congratulations Doranku :applause:

[fpliii]

Russell = career 15 ppg player, terrible advanced stats and efficiency. Nowhere near as dominant offensively as LeBron. In sum, just a worse individual player.

Kareem = way overrated, rode Magic's coattails to like 3-4 titles, never carried the load like LeBron did last year and basically won a few titles averaging weak numbers like 19/7. When he was dominating individually, he barely won anything (see: 1970's). LOL, LeBron is much better.

Wilt = 4 MVPs, 2 titles. LeBron at age 28 = 4 MVPs, 2 titles. What's the difference?

Jordan = yes, perfect career, perfect stats, perfect player, has literally everything. Career was basically stainless and will be hard to duplicate. But LeBron has time. May not happen, but it's not impossible. He'll easily pass everyone else though. Anyone doubting this is just in denial and overrating past players and ignoring their shortcomings.

You're looking at the wrong advanced stats then (PER, WS, individual non-team DRtg/ORtg are garbage contrived measures). Also note none of these include his high blocks and steals that were not recorded at the time.


So what? Jordan has only 6 rings compared to Russell's 11 and is unanimously considered the far superior player.

LeBron is much better than Russell. If he played in the weak 50's and 60's he would have won 11 titles easily against those scrubs.

Career 15 PPG average and 44 FG%. LeBron will struggle mightily to match those career numbers! :roll: :roll:

Huh? That's news to me.

[tgan3]

lol. you mention Russel's stats but forget to mention his 11 rings. Good luck beating that lebron

Again weaker era and there were lesser teams then in the NBA so it was easier winning a championship. Too tired to look it up but I believe maybe 17 teams.

[fpliii]

Russell had SIX Hall of Fame teammates when he won those 11 titles. LBJ only has one *possible* HoF teammate (Wade)!

:facepalm

Aside from Havlicek and Cousy (and perhaps Sam Jones), who would've been a HOFer without Russell?

[Solefade]

You think Jordan didnt had help?

Pippen - Arguably GOAT defender
Rodman - Arguably GOAT rebounder
Kerr- Greatest 3pt shooter ( in terms of 3pt% )

6th man of the year in toni kukoc also.

[chosen_wun]

Duncan has a lockout ring too. Another player who's better all-time than Colby.

[2010splash]

You're looking at the wrong advanced stats then (PER, WS, individual non-team DRtg/ORtg are garbage contrived measures). Also note none of these include his high blocks and steals that were not recorded at the time.



Huh? That's news to me.
Why are they garbage? Because you said so?

Any way you slice it, his stats don't measure up to guys like Jordan, LeBron, Shaq, etc. Heck, they aren't even as good as second tier greats like Kobe, Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem. Essentially he was a 15/14 player who won a lot of titles. That era was weak anyway, so anything achieved back then cannot be compared to the modern era.

[lefthook00]

Well he's not athletic as he used to be in Cleveland, but he's still @ ~95% so it shouldn't be a problem. He is just so good overall now.

I think he has reached his personal ceiling. The real question is, how long can he have a good supporting cast around him so he can keep winning championships? Everyone is gunning for the Heat now just how everyone was gunning for the Lakers a few years back. The competition always catches up. I think he can do what #24 Kobe did and get 2 rings in 3 straight finals appearances, which he can complete this year. Maybe he can go a bit further b/c of Wade & Bosh. But it's going to get much harder after this year imo.

[DatAsh]

:facepalm

Aside from Havlicek and Cousy (and perhaps Sam Jones), who would've been a HOFer without Russell?

That's the fundamental problem with the HOF argument when used against Russell. A lot of those guys are only in the Hall because of Russell, and would have no hopes of getting in had they played for any other team.

[Goldrush25]

What facts have changed? Him winning a ring in a shortened season doesn't somehow erase all of his past failures.

Just answered your own question.:oldlol:

I'm actually not in disagreement with your conclusion, just your premise. I don't think LeBron will surpass MJ either, but I don't think there's "no way" it could happen. I just feel he would have to accomplish a lot more than MJ did to offset him joining forces with Bosh and Wade. But if he somehow won say, 10 championships with 8 consecutive MVPs, there is an argument for him, no matter how much you despise him personally. Those accomplishments would be amazing no matter how you achieved them.

[fpliii]

Why are they garbage? Because you said so?

Any way you slice it, his stats don't measure up to guys like Jordan, LeBron, Shaq, etc. Heck, they aren't even as good as second tier greats like Kobe, Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem. Essentially he was a 15/14 player who won a lot of titles. That era was weak anyway, so anything achieved back then cannot be compared to the modern era.

No need to get hostile with me.

PER is trash...I believe it was created originally for player evaluation in fantasy basketball

here are a few problems:

[Magic 32]

You think Jordan didnt had help?

Pippen - Arguably GOAT defender
Rodman - Arguably GOAT rebounder
Kerr- Greatest 3pt shooter ( in terms of 3pt% )

Great, now explain his first 3-peat in the most competitive era in NBA history.

What Jordan did between 91 and 93 will never be equaled by Lebron. Period.

Why can't Lebron fans just be happy with their 10-15 spot?

[fpliii]

That's the fundamental problem with the HOF argument when used against Russell. A lot of those guys are only in the Hall because of Russell, and would have no hopes of getting in had they played for any other team.

Pretty much. I usually try to stay out of these threads, but I was looking for some positive conversation given that LeBron is continuing to accomplish great things. I guess I was expecting too much.

(also, FWIW, I'm not a Heat hater...I'm a big Wade stan, and respect LeBron for the great player he is)

[red1]

his ceiling is 2nd greatest of all time but that would require some ridiculous shit like stacking multiple mvp and championship sweeps in a row while maintaining his on-court production for several years

[fpliii]

his ceiling is 2nd greatest of all time but that would require some ridiculous shit like stacking multiple championships and mvp sweeps in a row

Well there is no one GOAT (MJ is at the top on the lists of most), but I think LeBron has a chance to become a strong GOAT candidate. We'll have to see how he finishes out his career.

[All Net]

Top 3 all-time..

[red1]

Well there is no one GOAT (MJ is at the top on the lists of most), but I think LeBron has a chance to become a strong GOAT candidate. We'll have to see how he finishes out his career.
MJ is the clear GOAT, you are going to mention kareem wilt or russell but none are as impressive to me as mj. MJ's success is untouchable for bron but I don't see why he can't build a case to rival any of the other guys.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Top 5 somewhere. Behind Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and possibly Russell in terms of level of play.

[fpliii]

MJ is the clear GOAT in my opinion, you are going to mention kareem wilt or russell but none are as impressive to me as mj. MJ's success is untouchable for bron but I don't see why he can't build a case to rival any of the other guys.

That's fine. I personally have MJ as a strong GOAT candidate as well, but it's all a matter of preference.

There have been a lot of great players in league history, I'm just happy to be able to watch one of the best today.

[Svendiggity]

You can compare players in so many different ways. A great players teammates play a huge role in his accomplishments, as well as his opponents in that era.

Here's an idea, why don't you just compare the players strengths and weaknesses instead of teammates, stats, awards, and accomplishments? It's basketball not Math.

When it's all said and done Lebron will be extremely accomplished anyway.

[willds09]

He don't know cuz there's a big ass hole in his ceiling since tha 2010 decision:lol

[chosen_wun]

He don't know cuz there's a big ass hole in his ceiling aftee since tha 2010 decision:lol
Did you go to college ? one of the mods here says you're a UAU.

[uoykcuf]

He don't know cuz there's a big ass hole in his ceiling since tha 2010 decision:lol

http://i.imgur.com/XdtmaFM.gif
http://i.imgur.com/sp4AExo.gif
http://i.imgur.com/i3YDPKx.gif

[Goldrush25]

He don't know cuz there's a big ass hole in his ceiling since tha 2010 decision:lol

I don't think you know what you just said. The word "ceiling" is being used metaphorically.

[TonyMontana]

There are only 3 players all-time I'd consider trading current LeBron for: Jordan, Wilt, Prime Shaq.

Even then I'd have to think long and hard about it. No other player dominates the game as much as current LeBron

[bluechox2]

he will hit his ceiling around age 37

[eSOL]

His ceiling is the Greatest of all time.

[D.J.]

If Miami doesn't win it all this year, that's 10 seasons and only 1 title for LeBron. And the mileage on the legs starts to add up.

[eSOL]

If Miami doesn't win it all this year, that's 10 seasons and only 1 title for LeBron. And the mileage on the legs starts to add up.

Mileage doesnt matter when you have android legs.

[D.J.]

Mileage doesnt matter when you have android legs.


No one has android legs, not even LeBron.

[Bandito]

If he looks up he should see the ceiling of his own house. How stupid can you be? :facepalm: That is why you don't skip college people!

[Bandito]

There are only 3 players all-time I'd consider trading current LeBron for: Jordan, Wilt, Prime Shaq.

Even then I'd have to think long and hard about it. No other player dominates the game as much as current LeBron
Uh those 3 players did way better than Lebron did?:facepalm

[eSOL]

If he looks up he should see the ceiling of his own house. How stupid can you be? :facepalm: That is why you don't skip college people!


:facepalm

[Bandito]

:facepalm
:facepalm

[TAZORAC]

Lebron may not know his ceiling, however we pretty much have it figured out.

First off, he can not surpass Michael Jordan. Jordan's achievements, stats, global impact, what he did for the league, his iconic status, etc is just unobtainable for Lebron James. Lebron may have taken the Cavs to a NBA Finals, however he also got swept. This is something that the G.O.A.T would not have let happened. Jordan would of at least won one to three games versus the Spurs by himself. He might would of willed him teammates to play better and ultimately win the series. Who knows. What we do know is that he wouldn't have gotten swept, based on his past achievements/stats, etc.

Secondly, Lebron layed one of the biggest eggs versus the Mavericks in the 2011 NBA Finals. Certainly, for a player of his caliber, for someone wanting G.O.A.T status, this is highly unacceptable. Michael Jordan would of won that series by himself. He would of out played Dirk. He would of willed his teammates past the 2011 Mavericks. The trash talk would not have effected him. He would of played better. He would of showed the world why he is Michael Jordan, the greatest of all time.

Those two facts alone makes him lesser than Jordan. Not to mention the stats, championships, global impact, etc.

So, he will not and cannot eclipse Jordan.

Then we have the big men. Bill Russell, Wilt, etc. I wouldn't put him above those guys.

So, in the end, I think he'll end up above Kobe. It will be Lebron then Kobe, etc. But, that is if he can keep up his current progess, etc.

If you replaced Jordan with Lebron on that CAVS team they wouldn't even have made it to the playoffs. Lebron James is already the greatest player of all time, and you speak of Wilt Chamberlin and Bill Russell, lol, two guys who played in an era of primitive basketball. Let's be real here dumb ass, there's not a sport on EARTH where people overall are better in the 60s then they are in 2013. Chamberlin had no skill, he was just taller then everybody else, and Russell was a solid guy who played on a TEAM that was better then everybody elses. The amount of championships he won shows you how primitive that era was. No talent was spread around

[eSOL]

If you replaced Jordan with Lebron on that CAVS team they wouldn't even have mad it to the finals.

QFT

[Bandito]

If you replaced Jordan with Lebron on that CAVS team they wouldn't even have mad it to the finals. Lebron James is already the greatest player of all time, and you speak of Wilt Chamberlin and Bill Russell, lol, two guys who played in an era of primitive basketball. Let's be real here dumb ass, there's not a sport on EARTH where people overall are better in the 60s then they are in 2013. Chamberlin had no skill, he was just taller then everybody else, and Russell was a solid guy who played on a TEAM that was better then everybody elses. The amount of championships he won shows you how primitive that era was. No talent was spread around
:facepalm

[eSOL]

:facepalm

:facepalm

[TAZORAC]

:facepalm

You could never have a job as a talent scout like me. Jordan plays EXACTLY like Kobe Bryant, although both are great players, neither are Lebron status and need good teams around them to win titles.

[chosen_wun]

:facepalm
The dude you're co-signing is trolling FYI.:oldlol:

[Magic 32]

If you replaced Jordan with Lebron on that CAVS team they wouldn't even have mad it to the finals. Lebron James is already the greatest player of all time, and you speak of Wilt Chamberlin and Bill Russell, lol, two guys who played in an era of primitive basketball. Let's be real here dumb ass, there's not a sport on EARTH where people overall are better in the 60s then they are in 2013. Chamberlin had no skill, he was just taller then everybody else, and Russell was a solid guy who played on a TEAM that was better then everybody elses. The amount of championships he won shows you how primitive that era was. No talent was spread around

:facepalm .............:facepalm ............:hammerhead: ............:oldlol:

[Bandito]

You could never have a job as a talent scout like me. Jordan plays EXACTLY like Kobe Bryant, although both are great players, neither are Lebron status and need good teams around them to win titles.
You're not a talent scout? You're a overweight elementary school dropout.

[Bandito]

:facepalm
:facepalm

[Bandito]

The dude you're co-signing is trolling FYI.:oldlol:
He's so stupid he didn't get my sarcasm about the ceiling earlier:roll:

[eSOL]

He's so stupid he didn't get my sarcasm about the ceiling earlier:roll:

the :facepalm was because it wasnt funny at all.

Durrrrr

:biggums:

[KyleKong]

:roll: That ship sailed a LONG time ago. If you get outscored by Jason Terry in the finals, you have no case for GOAT. Ever. Period.

There's really no discussion to be had.

:facepalm

[Bandito]

the :facepalm was because it wasnt funny at all.

Durrrrr

:biggums:
Don't lie you didn't get it.:facepalm

[LaserEater]

LeBron vs Jordan arguments are incredibly lame.

Like it or not...Bron is a beast and he's playing amazing basketball. Still...Jordan was a better leader and a much more smarter player. Whatever... Both are out of this world...plus LeBron is far from done...who knows how his resume will look once he retires.

Appreciate the fact that we got to see Jordam, Shaq, Kobe amd now LeBron. All amazing in their own way.

[Bandito]

http://i.qkme.me/361ye1.jpg

[tmacattack33]

LeBron vs Jordan arguments are incredibly lame.

Like it or not...Bron is a beast and he's playing amazing basketball. Still...Jordan was a better leader and a much more smarter player. Whatever... Both are out of this world...plus LeBron is far from done...who knows how his resume will look once he retires.

Appreciate the fact that we got to see Jordam, Shaq, Kobe amd now LeBron. All amazing in their own way.

MJ was harsh with his teammates and held them accountable...even to the point that some say it went overboard. They respected him though and followed his lead and his competitiveness must have made them more competitive too.

Lebron instills confidence in his teammates and is able to get everyone to get along. Both of his teams (cleveland and miami) seem to have more fun than anyone in the league. And there's been no report of Wade or Bosh feeling like they aren't involved enough...and a lot of that is due to Lebron.



I don't see how you could say that one is better than the other there.

[Bandito]

MJ was harsh with his teammates and held them accountable...even to the point that some say it went overboard. They respected him though and followed his lead and his competitiveness must have made them more competitive too.

Lebron instills confidence in his teammates and is able to get everyone to get along. Both of his teams (cleveland and miami) seem to have more fun than anyone in the league. And there's been no report of Wade or Bosh feeling like they aren't involved enough...and a lot of that is due to Lebron.



I don't see how you could say that one is better than the other there.
More like Wade receded his position because he knew he could ride his coattails more than Lebron telling him to **** off I am the "man" here.

[HeatFanSince88]

http://i.qkme.me/361ye1.jpg

This is the 4th thread I've seen you post this in and not one person has laughed.

Fuking pathetic, worst meme ever.

[Bandito]

This is the 4th thread I've seen you post this in and not one person has laughed.

Fuking pathetic, worst meme ever.
:roll: It is I am not going to lie.

[Doranku]

Just answered your own question.:oldlol:

I'm actually not in disagreement with your conclusion, just your premise. I don't think LeBron will surpass MJ either, but I don't think there's "no way" it could happen. I just feel he would have to accomplish a lot more than MJ did to offset him joining forces with Bosh and Wade. But if he somehow won say, 10 championships with 8 consecutive MVPs, there is an argument for him, no matter how much you despise him personally. Those accomplishments would be amazing no matter how you achieved them.

There's "no way" it could happen because there isn't a chance in the world that LeBron wins 10 championships and 8 consecutive MVPs. You really think something like that is in the realm of possibility?

[Goldrush25]

There's "no way" it could happen because there isn't a chance in the world that LeBron wins 10 championships and 8 consecutive MVPs. You really think something like that is in the realm of possibility?

8 championships in a row has already been done. MJ could've won at least 7-8 in a row had he not retired. Kobe/Shaq could've won at least 6 in a row had they stayed together. Who knows what those teams could've done had egos not gotten in the way. Do I think LeBron will win 10 championships? Of course not. But this is sports were talking about here, not magic.

I don't think I could get struck by lightning today but 370 people in the US get struck by lightning every year. Unlikely =/= impossible.

[fpliii]

8 championships in a row has already been done. MJ could've won at least 7-8 in a row had he not retired. Kobe/Shaq could've won at least 6 in a row had they stayed together. Who knows what those teams could've done had egos not gotten in the way. Do I think LeBron will win 10 championships? Of course not. But this is sports were talking about here, not magic.

I don't think I could get struck by lightning today but 370 people in the US get struck by lightning every year. Unlikely =/= impossible.

Hm, not so sure about that.

[MavsSuperFan]

:roll: That ship sailed a LONG time ago. If you get outscored by Jason Terry in the finals, you have no case for GOAT. Ever. Period.

There's really no discussion to be had.

I am not a huge fan of Lebron, but if he keeps up his current domination for 5-7 more years, I don't see how anyone could argue he isn't the greatest of all time.

[D.J.]

Kobe/Shaq could've won at least 6 in a row had they stayed together.


They were coming off a Finals loss in 2004. 6 in a row would mean 2005-2010. Shaq was only dominant for another 2 years after that.

[talkingconch]

He will never be GOAT. No amount of arguing or dumbass stan logic will change this.

[K Xerxes]

8 championships in a row has already been done. MJ could've won at least 7-8 in a row had he not retired.

Highly debatable. The team that actually gave the Bulls the most problems in their championship years was the the Rockets. In an interview in '93, Jordan said something to the effect of 'I'm glad we never have to face them in the finals. We don't have an answer for Hakeem.'

That's the biggest thing Jordan's retirement robbed us of: a showdown between the two best players at that time. i genuinely believe the Bulls could have lost that series.

[stephanieg]

Like Jordan, LeBron has maximum golden boy status and can basically do anything on the court and get away with it (travel, flop, charge, hack, blocks that are fouls). The only other guy that comes to mind in the last decade was when Shaq got away with routinely elbowing defenders in the face/chest, but that was one specific aspect whereas LeBron is more varied.

[Just2McFly]

He's on his way to being the greatest

[Andrei89]

Still enough time to enter top 5.

Why are we discussing this? Shouldnt this topic have diverted to Lebron v Kobe?

In that case let us go to fun facts:

Fun fact #1

Lebron's Game 6 in Boston in 2012 facing the elimination, all the pressure in the world on Lebron James.

End Result : 45/15/5 to stay alive for game 7.

This is a greater performance than Kobe has ever had.

Agree? Disagree?

Discuss.!

[Djahjaga]

Can we please, for once, make this a discussion of actual basketball skill instead of contrived measures of greatness?

[Odinn]

Can we please, for once, make this a discussion of actual basketball skill instead of contrived measures of greatness?
I wish we can make them play in real like we're doing it on a simulation machine.

[kshutts1]

I don't know what it is about today, but I am just realizing how ridiculous some of the posters on this site are in regards to Kobe, Jordan, Lebron.

Wow.

Where can I go for some rational, realistic conversation?

[chosen_wun]

I don't know what it is about today, but I am just realizing how ridiculous some of the posters on this site are in regards to Kobe, Jordan, Lebron.

Wow.

Where can I go for some rational, realistic conversation?
real gm and hoopsnation are the only serious forums without trolling.