Are Kobe/LeBron Top 10 all time?

[Westbrook0]

Isn't this the typical Top 10 list?

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5-6. Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain
7-8. Shaq/Olajuwon
9. Duncan

If so, who takes that 10 spot? LBJ or Kobe?

[imnew09]

Lol:facepalm fk this, im logging off

[Mass Debator]

Duncan>Olajuwon. Kobe is higher than Olajuwon and Lebron will soon be too.

[Trollsmasher]

After this season LeBron is going in and Kobe will drop out.

[Ne 1]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

[Psycho]

Lol:facepalm fk this, im logging off

Lol, I know. All these old people sticking to their old people guns. Lebron's the GOAT, no need to dust off those history books :facepalm

[kNicKz]

Top 25-30

[KOBE143]

Kobe is top 5 at worst

LeBron is top 20 at best

[OldSkoolball#52]

Duncan>Olajuwon. Kobe is higher than Olajuwon and Lebron will soon be too.



:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[ripthekik]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson
This guy is correct.

Currently, Kobe is ahead of Hakeem, while Lebron is behind Hakeem. So Lebron is the odd man out, sorry april 2013 posters :(

[chazzy]

I have Kobe at 8-10, Lebron 11

[Kiddlovesnets]

Kobe is top 5 at worst

LeBron is top 20 at best

:roll:

[Dro]

I dunno how anyone can have Lebron over Kobe on the all time list, unless they are Lebron stans...

[Mass Debator]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
2x vs 5x NBA Champions
2x vs 2x NBA Finals MVP
1x vs 1x MVP
2x vs 0x DPOY
6x vs 10x All-NBA First Team
5x vs 9x All-Defensive First Team
12x vs 15x NBA All-Star
26,946 vs 31,617 Points
22,798 vs 14,909 R/A/S/B combined

What's your argument?

[K Xerxes]

Hakeem is so underrated and underappreciated... it's saddening. No one could combine defense and offense the way he could at center. The best all-round center of all time, easily. No way in hell Kobe or LeBron (as it stands) are ahead of him for people that actually know a thing about the game of basketball and its history.

[OldSkoolball#52]

2x vs 5x NBA Champions
2x vs 2x NBA Finals MVP
1x vs 1x MVP
2x vs 0x DPOY
6x vs 10x All-NBA First Team
5x vs 9x All-Defensive First Team
12x vs 15x NBA All-Star
26,946 vs 31,617 Points
22,798 vs 14,909 R/A/S/B combined

What's your argument?


Hakeem was a better player.


:coleman:

[Mass Debator]

Hakeem was a better player.


:coleman:
Based on?

[Kiddlovesnets]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Irving
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Moses Malone
16. Lebron James
17. Charles Barkley
18. Elgin Baylor
19. Bob Cousy
20. Karl Malone

I can see Lebron moving closer to top 10 if he wins this season, and if he gets a three-peat he'd be reaching bottom-line top 5. For Kobe, theres not much he can do at 35 nowadays.

[pauk]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Irving
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Moses Malone
16. Lebron James
17. Charles Barkley
18. Elgin Baylor
19. Bob Cousy
20. Karl Malone

I can see Lebron moving closer to top 10 if he wins this season, and if he gets a three-peat he'd be reaching bottom-line top 5. For Kobe, theres not much he can do at 35 nowadays.

Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, Isiah Thomas and Julius Erving have ZERO business over Lebron/Kobe...... especially god damn Jerry West & Isiah Thomas.... you even put Jerry West over Duncan.... smh

[Kiddlovesnets]

lol this guy....

Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone, Isiah Thomas and Julius Erving have ZERO business over Lebron/Kobe...... especially god damn Jerry West & Isiah Thomas.... you even put Jerry West over Duncan.... holy hell man...

Jerry West is the 2nd best SG in NBA history, Kobes a poor man's Jerry West.
:no:

[Odinn]

5x vs 9x All-Defensive First Team

What's your argument?
Kobe was a better defensive player than Hakeem Olajuwon based on All-D selections. Right?


You idiot.

[Alan Ogg]

I'm okay with putting Kobe anywhere from the 4 to 10 range. Everyone has different weights according to what they value... rings, stats, longevity, all star appearances, all nba, MVPs, Final MVPs, etc... (All Star MVPs according to some posters on this site lol, pauk?)

I currently have Lebron at 11, but a ring or Finals MVP puts him solidly in the top 10 for me. That'd put him:

2 Finals MVPs
4 MVPs
21,000+ points
top 10 all time in play off points

[Mass Debator]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Irving
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Moses Malone
16. Lebron James
17. Charles Barkley
18. Elgin Baylor
19. Bob Cousy
20. Karl Malone

I can see Lebron moving closer to top 10 if he wins this season, and if he gets a three-peat he'd be reaching bottom-line top 5. For Kobe, theres not much he can do at 35 nowadays.
Why is that Lebron James is lower than Isiah Thomas, but Oscar Robertson is above Kobe? How are you even rating players?

Barkley also has no case over Karl Malone unless you count for a more dynamic personality.

[Mass Debator]

Kobe was a better defensive player than Hakeem Olajuwon based on All-D selections. Right?


You idiot.
Lol :facepalm I never said he was a better defensive player. These are awards and accolades. We can't be comparing guards to centers. We all know that.

[chosen_wun]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Irving
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Moses Malone
16. Lebron James
17. Charles Barkley
18. Elgin Baylor
19. Bob Cousy
20. Karl Malone

I can see Lebron moving closer to top 10 if he wins this season, and if he gets a three-peat he'd be reaching bottom-line top 5. For Kobe, theres not much he can do at 35 nowadays.Jerry west over Hakeem and Kobe and Oscar ?

What are you doing ?

Isiah Thomas is a top 15 player all-time ?

[pauk]

Jerry West is the 2nd best SG in NBA history, Kobes a poor man's Jerry West.
:no:

Im sorry dude but you have to consider the achievements/accolades...

Let me show you what i mean, here is West vs Lebron for example:


............................Lebron................ ....West............
MVP.........................4..................... ......0...............
FMVP........................1..................... ......1..............
CHAMP......................1...................... .....1..............
1st All-NBA................7...........................10. ............
1st All-Defensive.........5...........................4... ...........
All-Star.....................9........................ ...14.............
ROTY.......................Yes.................... .....No............

Then you take into consideration that Lebron actually won his championship as the best player, Jerry West won his only championship with Gail Goodrich & Wilt Chamberlain outperforming him..... he won the FMVP actually when he did NOT get a championship years earlier (miraculously, 1st & only time in NBA history that happened)...... Lebron had a better peak, was more productive, more dominant and was unlike West the best player in the game for many years....

Duncan has achieved even more than Lebron... so to place West not only over Lebron & Kobe but over freakin Duncan is a disgrace, considering Wests accolades you might aswell have placed Dirk Nowitzki at #8... hell, Nowitzki has also one FMVP/Championship like West AND has MVP unlike West, so it might have been even more reasonable....

[OldSkoolball#52]

Based on?


Based on having watched both guys and knowing who clearly makes a more useful impact on the game consistently.

I will do you a favor, I will grant that on the day Kobe scored his vaunted 81 points in a regular season game against the Raptors, he was better than Hakeem that day. On that one day in the regular season against the Raptors where Kobe had 81 points on 46 field goal attempts against the likes of Jose Calderon and a 34 year old Jalen Rose, he was better than Hakeem.

But I include the many games where Kobe throws the game away for his team to try and "put on a show" and then has to stay after and shoot in front of the media to divert attention away from his shitty game and try to turn the talk to how he's such a warrior and obsessed with improvement. So overall it's not even close.

Based on game alone, Hakeem is easily >>> Kobe. If you take personality into account and not being a corny, contrived, self-obsessed posing showoff, Hakeem >>>>>>>> Kobe. Then if you take things like rape etc. into account, I will run out of > with which to separate them.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Im sorry dude but you have to consider the achievements/accolades...

Let me show you what i mean, here is West vs Lebron for example:


............................Lebron................ ....West............
MVP.........................4..................... ......0...............
FMVP........................1..................... ......1..............
CHAMP......................1...................... .....1..............
1st All-NBA................7...........................10. ............
1st All-Defensive.........5...........................4... ...........
All-Star.....................9........................ ...14.............
ROTY.......................Yes.................... .....No............

Then you take into consideration that Lebron actually won his championship as the best player, Jerry West won his only championship with Gail Goodrich & Wilt Chamberlain outperforming him..... he won the FMVP actually when he did NOT get a championship years earlier (miraculously, 1st & only time in NBA history that happened)...... Lebron had a better peak, was more productive, more dominant and was unlike West the best player in the game for many years....

Duncan has achieved even more than Lebron... so to place West not only over Lebron & Kobe but over freakin Duncan is a disgrace, considering Wests accolades you might aswell have placed Dirk Nowitzki at #8... hell, Nowitzki has also one FMVP/Championship like West AND has MVP unlike West, so it might have been even more reasonable....

Well I believe Lebron will be in top 10 list soon, but at least until he gets his 2nd title hes not there yet. Lets calm down and be patient dude, your idol gets what is necessary to be among the goat list, he just needs more time.

[2010splash]

Uh, Kobe is nowhere near LeBron, a 4-time MVP winner and likely back to back Finals MVP. Kobe only has 1 MVP and has far worse stats and less all-around impact (defense, rebounding, passing) and is also much less efficient. After this year the list will look like this:

Tier 1 - Jordan
Tier 2 - LeBron, Wilt, Magic
Tier 3 - Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan
Tier 4 - Olajuwon, Kobe, Bird

[Mass Debator]

Based on having watched both guys and knowing who clearly makes a more useful impact on the game consistently.

I will do you a favor, I will grant that on the day Kobe scored his vaunted 81 points in a regular season game against the Raptors, he was better than Hakeem that day. On that one day in the regular season against the Raptors where Kobe had 81 points on 46 field goal attempts against the likes of Jose Calderon and a 34 year old Jalen Rose, he was better than Hakeem.

But I include the many games where Kobe throws the game away for his team to try and "put on a show" and then has to stay after and shoot in front of the media to divert attention away from his shitty game and try to turn the talk to how he's such a warrior and obsessed with improvement. So overall it's not even close.

Based on game alone, Hakeem is easily >>> Kobe. If you take personality into account and not being a corny, contrived, self-obsessed posing showoff, Hakeem >>>>>>>> Kobe. Then if you take things like rape etc. into account, I will run out of > with which to separate them.
You are simply rating players out of dislike and the "eye test" which is all opinionated or at least not a fact. If the eye test was used, Lebron is better than everyone not-named Michael Jordan.

Very cute analysis between Kobe and Hakeem and very troll-like symptoms. Kobe's "put on a show" has gotten him much success on the court and off. MJ also had his moments of arrogance but all will be forgotten or at least uncared for as greatness will shadow all of that. It'll be the same for Kobe.

[DaSeba5]

Kobe: top 10

LeBron: top 15 (will move up after this year)

[gengiskhan]

Isn't this the typical Top 10 list?

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5-6. Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain
7-8. Shaq/Olajuwon
9. Duncan

If so, who takes that 10 spot? LBJ or Kobe?

Kobe & Duncan are NOT top 10 from any stretch of imagination.

Oscar was the GREATEST PERIMETER PLAYER EVER to play till Magic Bird MJ showed up in NBA

Oscar's first 6 yrs resulted in 30+ppg TRIPLE DOUBLE stats. Even Bird could not mtach that.

From modern day greats (1998 - present), SHAQ is the only one who is a Top 10 GOATs LOCKED!.

HINT: a reason why in 1997 Shaq was selected NBA's 50 greatest players to ever play even before winning a single ring. His upcoming SHEER DOMINANCE was already predicted in 1997)

Btw, Duncan Kobe LBJ, only LBJ is will LOCK himself in Top 10 GOATs ever after having 2nd MVP "sweep" in a row & 2nd Ring.

Kobe is #12-#15 currently anywhere along with Duncan, Dr J., Charles, Moses etc etc.

This group will decent even more depending on Kevin Durant's success in MVP trophys & FMVP trophys.

[rmt]

Uh, Kobe is nowhere near LeBron, a 4-time MVP winner and likely back to back Finals MVP. Kobe only has 1 MVP and has far worse stats and less all-around impact (defense, rebounding, passing) and is also much less efficient. After this year the list will look like this:

Tier 1 - Jordan
Tier 2 - LeBron, Wilt, Magic
Tier 3 - Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan
Tier 4 - Olajuwon, Kobe, Bird

It's amazing to me how some people can just assume that the Heat are going to win and Lebron will get FMVP. Anything can happen - he could get injured or that flu that the Bulls have to sweep through the Heat and they could lose to CHI or NYK/IND. Don't count your chickens till they're hatched.

Another FMVP and ring doesn't jump Lebron past Kareem (6 rings, 2 FMVPs, 6 MVPs), Russell (11 rings, 5 MVPs), Shaq (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP), Duncan (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs) or Bird (3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs).

[ReturnofJPR]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson


John Stockton and Isiah Thomas should be mentioned as well.

[fandarko]

Duncan>Olajuwon. Kobe is higher than Olajuwon and Lebron will soon be too.

Duncan has nothing on Hakeem. Both Lebron and Kobe must be in. The Top 10 is flawed, it needs to be 11. Or wait a couple of years to move Lebron in. But instead of who?

[fandarko]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

Lebron is better than Dr. J ever was. Other than that, I subscribe.

[fpliii]

In my opinion Lebron is better than Dr. J ever was. Other than that, I subscribe.

If you ignore ABA play, I agree.

[fandarko]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Irving
13. Kobe Bryant
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Moses Malone
16. Lebron James
17. Charles Barkley
18. Elgin Baylor
19. Bob Cousy
20. Karl Malone

I can see Lebron moving closer to top 10 if he wins this season, and if he gets a three-peat he'd be reaching bottom-line top 5. For Kobe, theres not much he can do at 35 nowadays.

No way Kobe's 13th. It's tricky, I know, but he's top 10. The best wing to have every played excluding MJ. Also, no way Isiah's over Barkley or Kobe. No way Dr J over Kobe. Finally, there's no way to rank Jerry West over Hakeem and Duncan.

[fandarko]

If you ignore ABA play, I agree.
I mean pure skills wise. Lebron is a dominant two-way player, Dr J. wasn't.

[gengiskhan]

No way Kobe's 13th. It's tricky, I know, but he's top 10. The best wing to have every played excluding MJ.

It dont matter if he is the 2nd best SG ever.

Its the efficiency + dominance. Kobe has NEITHER.

I dont agree with Big O outside the top 10 for the same reason above.

Kobe is at best #12 - #15 as LBJ is making a strong push with 4th MVP & 2nd FMVP.

Kobe & Duncan are well out of 10th Spot for good.

[fpliii]

I mean pure skills wise. Lebron is a dominant two-way player, Dr J. wasn't.

Ah okay. J is underrated defensively, but he wasn't close to LeBron's class on that end.

[ReturnofJPR]

It dont matter if he is the 2nd best SG ever.

Its the efficiency + dominance. Kobe has NEITHER.

I dont agree with Big O outside the top 10 for the same reason above.

Kobe is at best #12 - #15 as LBJ is making a strong push with 4th MVP & 2nd FMVP.

Kobe & Duncan are well out of 10th Spot for good.

Duncan will get his 5th Chip this year and his 4th FMVP.

Tim Duncan certainly is top 10. :pimp:

[NumberSix]

You could make a case for both.

[Pointguard]

This is how I have it currently.

First tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

Second tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

Third tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

Fourth tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson
I did a very similar tier breakdown here somewhere. I agree with this for the most part.

Jordan best combination of all great qualities
Chamberlain the standard and vision of great
Magic the best team player
Kareem the all inclusive career
Bird the great team player and all around game
Russell the greatest winner
Duncan the do it all bigman/winner
Shaq the dominant one

The next group is harder to figure

Kobe
Oscar
Hakeem
Lebron
Irving
West

By the end of the year I will likely have Kobe 9 and Lebron 10.

[2010splash]

It's amazing to me how some people can just assume that the Heat are going to win and Lebron will get FMVP. Anything can happen - he could get injured or that flu that the Bulls have to sweep through the Heat and they could lose to CHI or NYK/IND. Don't count your chickens till they're hatched.

Another FMVP and ring doesn't jump Lebron past Kareem (6 rings, 2 FMVPs, 6 MVPs), Russell (11 rings, 5 MVPs), Shaq (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 1 MVP), Duncan (4 rings, 3 FMVPs, 2 MVPs) or Bird (3 rings, 2 FMVPs, 3 MVPs).
Well yeah, this is all assuming it does happen. Obviously nothing's guaranteed, but if it does happen then that's 4 MVP's + 2 Finals MVP's. And in that case...

Shaq? No argument for him. You're basically saying 2 titles (one where he rode Wade) outweighs LeBron's 3 more MVP's.

Bird? No. 1 more ring, 1 less MVP, far worse defense. What's the argument for Bird?

Duncan? Again, similar to Shaq, you are choosing to weigh titles (far more of a team accomplishment) more heavily than MVP's (testament to individual dominance). And after all, we're ranking these individual players against each other. He has 2 more titles but 2 less MVP's. There's no clear edge to Duncan.

And honestly I'll just give you Russell and Kareem even though both are way overrated if you actually put their accomplishments into proper perspective. Kareem was basically putting up Bosh numbers during his last 3 titles and Russell's stats were just plain average. Neither player was close to as dominant as LeBron but if you ignore context, I guess you can rank them ahead of him. That makes it Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and maybe Magic. This puts LeBron at #5 at worst.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is 9th or 10th all time.

Lebron is somewhere between 11th and 15th

I have him at 11.

If he sweeps the playoffs again with fmvp and a title. I'll probably put him ahead of Kobe and Hakeem at 9th all time. And bump Kobe to 11th all time.

But you could order those guys in any way even if Lebron sweeps the playoffs. Lebron has a lot of work to do...to get higher than that.

[gengiskhan]

You could make a case for both.

Neither of them have a case for Top 10.

Both have a case for Top 15.

Both are products of their franchises with a winning system.

Its like to say, if Sir Charles was drafted as LAL or SAS, he would've had multiple rings but he dont.

same can be said about BOTH, if they played for Suns, Rockets or Sixers, none of them would have a ring but still be great players.

Same cant be said of top 10.

1.MJ
2.Wilt
3.Kareem
4.Magic
5.Bird
6.Russell
7.Hakeem
8.Shaq
9.Oscar
10.LBJ

All Top 10 GOATs will win 1 or more rings not playing for winning franchises like LAL or BOS or SAS.

[BlackVVaves]

Kobe is 8-10. Lebron will be Top 10 after this season, but it'll be Hakeem, not Kobe, that he unsits in the top 10.

Weak trolling attempt, OP. I expected more of an effort from you.

[NBASTATMAN]

Hakeem is so underrated and underappreciated... it's saddening. No one could combine defense and offense the way he could at center. The best all-round center of all time, easily. No way in hell Kobe or LeBron (as it stands) are ahead of him for people that actually know a thing about the game of basketball and its history.


I AGREE:cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

Both Kobe Bryant and LeBron James will be Top 10, I assume, on most arbitrary all-time lists.

[MJ23forever]

Kobe = Tom Brady
LeBron = Peyton Manning

Michael Jordan is the Joe Montana of basketball. Kobe is Tom Brady. As great as Brady is, he's not Joe Montana and Peyton Manning as great as he is a regular season legend/post season dud, not as as good as Brady let alone Montana.

[MJ23forever]

Kobe is 8-10. Lebron will be Top 10 after this season, but it'll be Hakeem, not Kobe, that he unsits in the top 10.

Weak trolling attempt, OP. I expected more of an effort from you.

Eh for me 2 rings is not going to justify the hype Lebron has received throughout his career, not saying he's a failure but if you're going to be comparing yourself to MJ/Magic/Bird/Kobe, which are the predominant comparisons with Bron, then you're definitely going to need more than 2 rings. That's just how the general perception is going to go. At this point, winning more MVP awards, scoring titles and accomplishing other regular season feats are not going to help Lebron move up the all time list. He's already proven that he can do that. His big knock is that he can't win championships, that he's been exposed in crunch time and lost 3 straight years to an under seed when he was expected to win a ring. It's pretty crazy, I've never heard of a legend-status superstar having those kinds of "cons". So that's going to be Bron's uphill battle and if he continues to disappoint in the playoffs and 4th quarters, the more the expectations are going to increase.

[gengiskhan]

SHAQ = Tom Brady

Kobe = Ben Roethlisberger or Eli Manning

LeBron = Peyton Manning

Michael Jordan is the Joe Montana of basketball. Kobe is Tom Brady. As great as Brady is, he's not Joe Montana and Peyton Manning as great as he is a regular season legend/post season dud, not as as good as Brady let alone Montana.

Corrected for another idiotic FULLY RETARDED post!

Be realistic here.

If MJ = Joe montana with pefect 4/4 superbowl record

than Shaq is Tom Brady 3/5 in superbowl record.

remember MJ & Shaq has SHEER DOMINANCE of seasons UNLIKE Kobe.

Kobe = roethlisberger won 2 superbowls lost 1 superbowl but isnt efficient or dominates at all.

Eli manning & Ben dont dominate reg sea at all just like Kobe. But they are still very good players & can do damage in post season.

Same as Kobe.

I agree with LBJ = Peyton Manning.

remember, Tom Brady DOMINATED with 3 season MVPs (HINT: 16-0 2007-2008 NFL season record) unlike Kobe

[chosen_wun]

Eh for me 2 rings is not going to justify the hype Lebron has received throughout his career, not saying he's a failure but if you're going to be comparing yourself to MJ/Magic/Bird/Kobe, which are the predominant comparisons with Bron, then you're definitely going to need more than 2 rings. That's just how the general perception is going to go. At this point, winning more MVP awards, scoring titles and accomplishing other regular season feats are not going to help Lebron move up the all time list. He's already proven that he can do that. His big knock is that he can't win championships, that he's been exposed in crunch time and lost 3 straight years to an under seed when he was expected to win a ring. It's pretty crazy, I've never heard of a legend-status superstar having those kinds of "cons". So that's going to be Bron's uphill battle and if he continues to disappoint in the playoffs and 4th quarters, the more the expectations are going to increase.
This is a cookie cutter line of thinking, he's gotta win x many times or bust.

Wilt had short comings and underachieved as well finishing his career with 4 MVPs and 2 rings, but regardless of that you KNEW he was a lot more dominant and a better overall player than everybody else. It was just that obvious, same story with Shaq underachieving and now LeBron. History repeats itself.

The crazy thing though is that LeBron is only 28, he might very well win just as much or more than Magic, kobe, MJ. It's yet to be determined.

[HeatFanSince88]

Yeah LeBron is better than him. Kobe never been as good as LBJ this season. Kobe is like 15th all-time. LeBron top 5.

[gengiskhan]

Yeah LeBron is better than him. Kobe never been as good as LBJ this season. Kobe is like 15th all-time. LeBron top 5.

In 10 yrs from now, Kobe will be settled at 14th or 15th all-timer for good.

You take 45%FG inefficiency for SHOOTING guard

You take SINGLE consolation MVP for 17 NO MAJOR INJURY years.

You take INABILITY to make team mates peform better

You take NOT a single season of SHEER DOMINANCE compared to his peers.

You start looking at MULTIPLE POST SEASON SWEEPS & inability to make it to post season in his prime year.

5/7 rings for NBA"S WINNINGEST FRANCHISE will start looking like weak argument sooner than later as LBJ starts winning multiple rings.

Kobe at his rightful 14th or 15 position only happen after 10 yrs of his retirement.

[HeatFanSince88]

In 10 yrs from now, Kobe will be settled at 14th or 15th all-timer for good.

You take 45%FG inefficiency for SHOOTING guard

You take SINGLE consolation MVP for 17 NO MAJOR INJURY years.

You take INABILITY to make team mates peform better

You take NOT a single season of SHEER DOMINANCE compared to his peers.

You start looking at MULTIPLE POST SEASON SWEEPS & inability to make it to post season in his prime year.

5/7 rings for NBA"S WINNINGEST FRANCHISE will start looking like weak argument sooner than later as LBJ starts winning multiple rings.

Kobe at his rightful 14th or 15 position only happen after 10 yrs of his retirement.

ya good points.

Kobe doesn't elevate your team, he can just sit there for the ride if the team is already stacked. Never won a series he was expected to lose.

Should only have one Finals MVP too, Gasol carried him in 2010 Finals.

Hes 15th all-time caliber.

[DMAVS41]

In 10 yrs from now, Kobe will be settled at 14th or 15th all-timer for good.

You take 45%FG inefficiency for SHOOTING guard

You take SINGLE consolation MVP for 17 NO MAJOR INJURY years.

You take INABILITY to make team mates peform better

You take NOT a single season of SHEER DOMINANCE compared to his peers.

You start looking at MULTIPLE POST SEASON SWEEPS & inability to make it to post season in his prime year.

5/7 rings for NBA"S WINNINGEST FRANCHISE will start looking like weak argument sooner than later as LBJ starts winning multiple rings.

Kobe at his rightful 14th or 15 position only happen after 10 yrs of his retirement.

Who are the other 13 guys ahead of him? In the next 10 years there is only one player that can go by Kobe and that is Durant.

At worst, Kobe will be the 12th best player in 10 years.

[MJ23forever]

The majority of fans already have Kobe a lot higher than 10.

After the 2010 Finals they had voting on ESPN.com for the greatest players ever and Kobe had the 2nd most 1st place votes only behind Michael Jordan and he came in third overall behind Jordan and Magic Johnson.

I think most knowledgeable reasonable fans have him anywhere between between 5-10, depending on who you ask and casual fans have him as high 3 and the Kobe haters ranked him as low as 15 (Eg. Bruce Blitz who has Kobe ranked 15th and LeBron 13th :oldlol:)

[Unbiased_one]

2x vs 5x NBA Champions
2x vs 2x NBA Finals MVP
1x vs 1x MVP
2x vs 0x DPOY
6x vs 10x All-NBA First Team
5x vs 9x All-Defensive First Team
12x vs 15x NBA All-Star
26,946 vs 31,617 Points
22,798 vs 14,909 R/A/S/B combined

What's your argument?

Never use kobe's all-defensive teams as a serious stat. That said, kobe is higher than lebron at this point, but not hakeem imho.

And seriously, what does it take to get duncan some love as the GOAT???

[samballs]

1 Jordan (could have won 9 without first 2 retirements)
2 Kareem
3 Shaq
4 Wilt
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Duncan
8 Kobe (I've hated him for a really long time, but he won me over this year)
9 Lebron
10 Hakeem (only won because Jordan was playing baseball)
11 Russell (I've seen his games and I can't put him in my top 10... I wouldn't even put him in my top 20)

[KyleKong]

Kobe is top 5 at worst

LeBron is top 20 at best

:biggums:

[Unbiased_one]

Kobe is top 5 at worst

LeBron is top 20 at best

Please make an argument for kobe over any of the following: Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan

[KyleKong]

Please make an argument for kobe over any of the following: Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan
:cheers:

[Greg Oden 50]

Hakeem is so underrated and underappreciated... it's saddening. No one could combine defense and offense the way he could at center. The best all-round center of all time, easily. No way in hell Kobe or LeBron (as it stands) are ahead of him for people that actually know a thing about the game of basketball and its history.

jaabar say hi :banana:

[baller562]

In 10 yrs from now, Kobe will be settled at 14th or 15th all-timer for good.

You take 45%FG inefficiency for SHOOTING guard

You take SINGLE consolation MVP for 17 NO MAJOR INJURY years.

You take INABILITY to make team mates peform better

You take NOT a single season of SHEER DOMINANCE compared to his peers.

You start looking at MULTIPLE POST SEASON SWEEPS & inability to make it to post season in his prime year.

5/7 rings for NBA"S WINNINGEST FRANCHISE will start looking like weak argument sooner than later as LBJ starts winning multiple rings.

Kobe at his rightful 14th or 15 position only happen after 10 yrs of his retirement.

Hey IDIOT, 45% career FG for a shooting guard in his era is pretty efficient. You do realize it is harder to score from the outside then the inside right? Especially coming out of HS, which is I belive harder for outside players than inside ones.

17 non-injury seasons is a major accomplishment.. that is exactly what you want from your franchise player.

Kobe has made teammates better, although he is a shoot first SG that played in the triangle, he still averaged higher than average assists for SGs. Endless players have benefitted from playing with him including, Shaq, Fisher, Ariza, Odom, Gasol, etc

A single season of sheer dominance? When is that a criteria for anything? More than half of the top ten was never the outright best player in the league for a season, you can always make an argument for any given year.

How many times has Kobe been swept out of the playoffs? Are you seriously counting the 1st/2nd seasons against the Jazz and this year against the spurs?

5/7 finals winning record is really good... Lebron is 1 out of 3 so far. Jerry West is what 1 out of 9?

Kobe should be top 10...

[Greg Oden 50]

1 Jordan (could have won 9 without first 2 retirements)
2 Kareem
3 Shaq
4 Wilt
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Duncan
8 Kobe (I've hated him for a really long time, but he won me over this year)
9 Lebron
10 Hakeem (only won because Jordan was playing baseball)
11 Russell (I've seen his games and I can't put him in my top 10... I wouldn't even put him in my top 20)

lol lechoke over olajuwan :roll:

[uoykcuf]

lol lechoke over olajuwan :roll:

:no:
http://imageshack.us/a/img145/576/leclutch.gif

[gengiskhan]

Hey IDIOT, 45% career FG for a shooting guard in his era is pretty efficient.

45%FG is PATHETIC for a SHOOTING Guard who suppose to know how to SHOOT! IDIOT

Especially, when this SG has spent first 7 yrs of his career with NBA's most DOMINANT FORCE OF NATURE being triple teamed & this moron SG was wide open to shoot atleast 50%FG or more.

D'wade has done it TWICE. shoot around 50%FG or more.

chris Mullin has done it 4 x

Kobe is just shot jocking 6'6" Iversion.

No Pathetic 45%FG SG will hold Top 10 GOAT position even if he is extremly overrated.

not for long.

It will take 10 yrs revisioning to kick Kobe out of that 10th GOAT spot even if he plays 20 yrs.

1 MVP for 17 yrs is also a clear indication of Kobe being 14th or 15th on all-time list.

gotta remember, Charles, Moses, D'Rob, Duncan were Great Rebounders along with Great Scorers.

Kobe is ONE TRICK PONY like Iverson & Melo.

[Greg Oden 50]

Well yeah, this is all assuming it does happen. Obviously nothing's guaranteed, but if it does happen then that's 4 MVP's + 2 Finals MVP's. And in that case...

Shaq? No argument for him. You're basically saying 2 titles (one where he rode Wade) outweighs LeBron's 3 more MVP's.

Bird? No. 1 more ring, 1 less MVP, far worse defense. What's the argument for Bird?

Duncan? Again, similar to Shaq, you are choosing to weigh titles (far more of a team accomplishment) more heavily than MVP's (testament to individual dominance). And after all, we're ranking these individual players against each other. He has 2 more titles but 2 less MVP's. There's no clear edge to Duncan.

And honestly I'll just give you Russell and Kareem even though both are way overrated if you actually put their accomplishments into proper perspective. Kareem was basically putting up Bosh numbers during his last 3 titles and Russell's stats were just plain average. Neither player was close to as dominant as LeBron but if you ignore context, I guess you can rank them ahead of him. That makes it Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and maybe Magic. This puts LeBron at #5 at worst.

lol :roll: heat stans always overrated lechoke :hammerhead:

[K]

I have Kobe Bryant at 11 just behind Lebron James. If we don't take team success into account, Kobe Bryant may drop a couple of spots. Not much though.

[baller562]

45%FG is PATHETIC for a SHOOTING Guard who suppose to know how to SHOOT! IDIOT

Especially, when this SG has spent first 7 yrs of his career with NBA's most DOMINANT FORCE OF NATURE being triple teamed & this moron SG was wide open to shoot atleast 50%FG or more.

D'wade has done it TWICE. shoot around 50%FG or more.

chris Mullin has done it 4 x

Kobe is just shot jocking 6'6" Iversion.

No Pathetic 45%FG SG will hold Top 10 GOAT position even if he is extremly overrated.

not for long.

It will take 10 yrs revisioning to kick Kobe out of that 10th GOAT spot even if he plays 20 yrs.

1 MVP for 17 yrs is also a clear indication of Kobe being 14th or 15th on all-time list.

gotta remember, Charles, Moses, D'Rob, Duncan were Great Rebounders along with Great Scorers.

Kobe is ONE TRICK PONY like Iverson & Melo.

Kobe's FG% is higher playing without Shaq than with him... you point out a single player who is a primary slasher to refute my argument, the other is Chris Mullen :roll: . You think they played in the same era? You got to compare him with SG's from 97-2013. Wade probably would have been also a top 10 player if he wasn't so injury prone and lebron eating away into his numbers.

What does great rebounding have to do with a SG anyway? In fact, Kobe is pretty good at rebouding for a SHOOTING GUARD.

[NumberSix]

1 Jordan (could have won 9 without first 2 retirements)
2 Kareem (never had to play Jordan in the playoffs)
3 Shaq (only won because Jordan retired)
4 Wilt (only won because Jordan was a child)
5 Magic (never beat Jordan in the playoffs)
6 Bird
7 Duncan (only won because Jordan retired)
8 Kobe (Only won because Jordan wasn't around)
9 Lebron (only won because Jordan is too old to play)
10 Hakeem (only won because Jordan was playing baseball)
11 Russell (I've seen his games and I can't put him in my top 10... I wouldn't even put him in my top 20)
Why is this stupid argument only made for Hakeem? Most people won their championships when Jordan wasn't in the league.

Not too mention, Jordan would have had no chance of beating Houston in '95.

[michaelray]

Kobe is definitely not Top10.
Have you ever seen a all-time top 10 immitate another superstar?
kobe has all his moves from jordan,and he's not as half smooth as Mj.
This guy is the most ballhog player of all-time.

And he is uncoachable and counldnt win without phil jackson as coach.
Even Phil Jackson coulnt bare him and call him out in his book 《last Season》.

[TheBigVeto]

Kobe - definitely not
Lebron - not yet, maybe someday

[Zoobieshoes]

the short answer is yes

[YGS]

the short answer is yes
Not if kobe doesnt come back from injury and if lebron loses this finals

[dh144498]

Kobe is top 10, Lebron is top 30.

[YGS]

Kobe is top 10, Lebron is top 30.
You sure LeBron should be that high?

[Ne 1]

Kobe is just shot jocking 6'6" Iversion.



:oldlol: Kobe has always been efficient relative to league average, even in most of his highest-volume shooting seasons (the last few seasons excepted because of age, injury/surgery, mileage, lockouts, etc). +3% over league average is still very good.

Kobe being inefficient over his career is a myth. In fact, he had excellent efficeny over his prime. He was at an excellent +3-4% relative to league average TS% from 01-09. That's as good as the "efficiency God" Wade and 2nd 3-peat Jordan.

2012 was an aberration. In 2011 he was at 55% TS/111 ORTG. He doesn't have a problem with creating good efficiency.

Oh yeah, and he shot 50%+ from 10-15 in 2010 and 2011. Nobody but Dirk matched that.


chris Mullin has done it 4 x

In the 1980s and 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%

Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15 years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%.

[tazb]

After this season LeBron is going in and Kobe will drop out.

This. But of course, only if LeBron wins it.

[dh144498]

if lebron wins this season, he'll finally crack the top 25.
Kobe, meanwhile, sits comfortably in the top 10.

[HurricaneKid]

LOL at all the comments with the corresponding avatars.

[Magic 32]

This. But of course, only if LeBron wins it.

After one decent game in the finals, your troll confident is back :facepalm

[Flash31]

kobe could be,LeBron not yet

Wilt
Jordan
Kareem
Russell

in any order
then you have

Magic
Bird
Shaq

so that leaves

duncan
Hakeem or Kobe

to round out the top ten
Kobe and LeBron are nowhere near bumping any of the 4 out
so Kobe can be anywhere from 5-12
LeBron 9th to-15th

You have the Big O and West, that could also be in the top 10

its all subjective

Kobe Can be and usually is ranking from 6th-9th usually

LeBron is not yet,if he wins a finals mvp,gets his 2nd ring,
then yeah 10th maybe but nothing higher than that yet

[gengiskhan]

Neither Kobe

Nor LBJ

are TOP 10 yet!.

LBJ will be after 2 more wins & FMVP.

Kobe is Top 15 all-times & thats where he'll retire.

[FiveRings]

This. But of course, only if LeBron wins it.
:biggums:

2009 NBA Finals Kobe Bryant 32.4 ppg

2007 NBA Finals Lebron James 22 ppg

2011 NBA Finals Lebron James 17.8 ppg

2013 NBA Finals so far Lebron James 20.8 ppg

He's had only one game with over 18 points in the series, and he had to stat pad down to the last seconds of the game against SA's reserves just to get his ppg that high. These types of Finals performances are enough to pass Kobe Bryant?

[Element]

Kobe is in that 6-9 range

LeBron is 11-15

If LeBron wins this season he won't enter the top 10. His play leading the Heat during this posteason was way too weak for a top 10 GOAT. He never really had a shot at it anyway this season, except if he had played like prime MJ but right now he ain't even on 2009 Kobe's level the way this playoffs have unfolded

[Legends66NBA7]

Both Kobe Bryant and LeBron James will be Top 10, I assume, on most arbitrary all-time lists.

This will still hold true to me, for now.

If you ask a casual fans point of view, they are both Top 3-5 range.

[NumberSix]

Anybody who thinks Duncan was a better player than Hakeem is a moron.

[Element]

Anybody who thinks Duncan was a better player than Hakeem is a moron.

Why is it that so many people act like Hakeem only existed from the 93-95 postseasons and had only been playing at that level for his entire career?

[The-Legend-24]

People ranking players they never saw play. :oldlol: :oldlol:

[fozi]

Problem with you guys, is that you rank Kobe based on how much you hate him ..

I take on what experts say since they're probably lesser biased than you guys..


Kobe was ranked 8th at worst ...



I have Kobe at 5 and LeBron at 12...

[NumberSix]

Why is it that so many people act like Hakeem only existed from the 93-95 postseasons and had only been playing at that level for his entire career?
Because some of us have the ability to recognize good players outside of the seasons the won championships.

[PickernRoller]

Kobe is top 7, Lebron is sniffing top 15. OP is a phagg0t too.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe is top 8 to be honest, LeBron is top 10 ... pretty much pushing that number ten spot. I like ranking the hierarchy of players, tell anyone who doesn't like comparing players to eff off. That's why we watch and judge greatness. That's why fans have their allegiances and argue them, it's what makes sports FUN. Ranking and comparing teams, legends, etc.

No matter how much I resent him, or how much he frustrates, no matter how soft or inconsistent he comes off ... LeBron is still easily when on his game one of the five best players I've ever witness in context. Especially when he is aggressive and not playing like a ***** with a lack of confidence. LeBron if he maximizes his potential should surpass Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, etc but we'll see if he actually capitalizes on his god given abilities.

[Legends66NBA7]

People ranking players they never saw play. :oldlol: :oldlol:

They are many people on here who didn't "watch" (since I'm assuming your talking about when someone was alive and actually experienced the era live) peak/prime Michael Jordan and rank him at #1 or at worst top 2.

Ditto for guys like Wilt, Kareem, and so on... Sometimes, even the tape aside, things are obvious. And this an all-time list, so it's factoring career and ability.

[SamuraiSWISH]

They are many people on here who didn't "watch" (since I'm assuming your talking about when someone was alive and actually experienced the era live) peak/prime Michael Jordan and rank him at #1 or at worst top 2.
All you had to see was MJ at 33, 34, 35 from '96 - '86, when '96 was probably the last year of what you'd consider his prime. He basically averaged prime / championship alpha Kobe numbers and won 3 rings. Even if that's all you saw of Jordan, his previous reputation preceded him in combination of his high level of play in those years which was like 85% of the player he was at his peak from '89 - '93.

But it's still weird for players to rank or more alarming have such affinity for players they never saw in context, like the many Wilt / Russell defenders around these parts. You know they didn't see them. They never watched one of these legends in the moment with the fate of the game in real time on the line and see how they perform. They read a player's already written chapter in league history and THEN defend them fiercly. That is very weird to me from a fan sensibility.

[miles berg]

Kobe is 10th and will retire there.

LeBron is top 15 and rising fast, he could penetrate possibly into the top 5 someday.

[cos88]

Isn't this the typical Top 10 list?

1. Jordan
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5-6. Bill Russell/Wilt Chamberlain
7-8. Shaq/Olajuwon
9. Duncan

If so, who takes that 10 spot? LBJ or Kobe?


russel at 5/6?


give me a pm with your mail or somethin, i need to learn from you :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm




idiot

[The Iron Fist]

Jerry west over Hakeem and Kobe and Oscar ?

What are you doing ?

Isiah Thomas is a top 15 player all-time ?
How is he not?
Led his team to a title with wins over Birds Celtics, Jordans Bulls, and the Kareem and Magic Lakers.

[Ca$H]

You guys need to use my formula like I stated before.

Career/longevity/resume ranking + Peak Play ranking = Sum divided by 2 =
estimated ranking.

Kobe has the third best resume of all time. So even if you give him a peak play ranking of 11 he would be (3 +11 = 14/2 = 7) the seventh GOAT.