Is it a coincidence? (Pau, Odom, Bynum)

[Mr. Jabbar]

All of them, considered by lebron(*) stans to be the ones "carrying" kobe through the 2009/2011 chips, have proven they are either scrubs, mental mdigets, underachievers or all of the above when they have played without kobe.

So tell me, is this just a bizarre coincidence?

[STATUTORY]

lets add to that list guys like Smush, Farmer, Sasha who couldn't even stay in the league once away from the aura of the mamba

[Mr. Jabbar]

lets add to that list guys like Smush, Farmer, Sasha who couldn't even stay in the league once away from the aura of the mamba


exactly. I consider Fisher the best player (not named shaq) on his own merits to have ever played with kobe

[DMAVS41]

All of them, considered by lebron(*) stans to be the ones "carrying" kobe through the 2009/2011 chips, have proven they are either scrubs, mental mdigets, underachievers or all of the above when they have played without kobe.

So tell me, is this just a bizarre coincidence?

Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.

21/10/3
17/10/4

What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.

But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.

[tpols]

People look at the 2010 finals and the past three years when kobe was kind of in chuck mode to base their entire view of him as a player on.

But kobe actually worked with those guys and Lakers had a great system set up.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.

21/10/3
17/10/4

What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.

But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.

numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?

[STATUTORY]

Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.

21/10/3
17/10/4

What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.

But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.

Chris Bosh put up 24/11 before joining Heat and he is the 3rd option

putting shit in perspective

[Mr. Jabbar]

Chris Bosh put up 24/11 before joining Heat and he is the 3rd option

putting shit in perspective


dat ether :oldlol:

i think dmavs is well aware of this though, he sees the heat team as overly stacked

[VIP2000]

numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?

Those Memphis teams weren't all that good, just slightly above-average teams. And Lamar Odom was on a Miami Heat team that made it to the 2nd round. So these two were already putting up good numbers on playoff teams prior to playing with Kobe.

[NBASTATMAN]

lets add to that list guys like Smush, Farmer, Sasha who couldn't even stay in the league once away from the aura of the mamba


Both Farmar and Sasha left the NBA because of the lockout... Both played well in backup roles for NJ...Farmar was actually pretty good when he was able to start for the team...

What did Kobe do before Pau , Bynum, and Fish got to LA? Didn't make the playoffs and a couple of first round exits..


WHAT OTHER SUPERSTAR HAS LOST A SERIES AFTER THEY WERE UP 3-1? :roll:


HAS ANY TOP 10 PLAYER ALL TIME HAD THAT HAPPEN TO THEM? Just asking

[Solefade]

Pau was considered the best big man in the game the year they won their chip in 2009 and 2010. Lamar was 6th man of the year before he got traded and Bynum was considered the 2nd best big man in the league before he got shipped off to Philly.

During their times they were great players but they've fallen off since, it has no correlation to Kobe other than the fact that they played together. It's disrespectful as hell to discredit these guys that were MAJOR pieces in getting the chip, not saying they completely carried Kobe though. OKC had to pick up Perkins and Ibaka to compete against Lamar/Gasol/Bynum so that has to account for something.

[Nashty]

Just read this, and you will see who carried who :cheers:

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/1/its-all-about-the-ws-kobe-bryant.html

[DMAVS41]

numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?

What is that supposed to prove? That Gasol as a number 1 option isn't good enough to have success in the playoffs on average teams? Ok.

And the point being? Nobody ever said Gasol was a championship first option. Nobody ever said Odom was anything other than a really good 3rd option on a title winning team.

Again...point?

Gasol was a top 15 or so player in the league before he joined the Lakers. Odom was a very good role player capable of doing many different things on both ends really well.

Kobe did not make them. Which is what this thread is implying. What he did...was allow them to win titles. Just like those guys allowed Kobe to win titles.

[DMAVS41]

dat ether :oldlol:

i think dmavs is well aware of this though, he sees the heat team as overly stacked

how is that ether?

who said Lebron made Bosh? I don't follow this it all.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Just read this, and you will see who carried who :cheers:

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/1/its-all-about-the-ws-kobe-bryant.html


Watching the games >>>>>> reading about them years later

[DMAVS41]

numbers dont mean much without context, what were they fighting for? gasol was 0-12 in playoffs games without kobe, thats 3 SWEEPS in a row, now you can add another one for 0-16, thats a far more telling number if you ask me...ok, mem was a bad team with pau as a whole, but not able to win 1 game?

also, that would be like me saying that phil jackson made Kobe. what kind of success in the playoffs has Kobe had without phil jackson coaching?

it's a terrible argument and isn't even relevant.

[Solefade]

Watching the games >>>>>> reading about them years later


Apparently you Laker fans didn't watch the games otherwise you wouldn't be discrediting Kobe's teammates.

That article is very informative, has good contextual information and facts.

[Mr. Jabbar]

also, that would be like me saying that phil jackson made Kobe. what kind of success in the playoffs has Kobe had without phil jackson coaching?

it's a terrible argument and isn't even relevant.

lol kobe has won many playoff games without phil

[TheMarkMadsen]

Apparently you Laker fans didn't watch the games otherwise you wouldn't be discrediting Kobe's teammates.

That article is very informative, has good contextual information and facts.

I watched the games, every single one. Bynum was an irrelavant as can be in 09. 10 wasn't that much better

Didn't average more than 25 mpg in either playoffs.

Odom was Odom, in consistent but at times an incredible asset who's well rounded game made up for some of the Lakers blatant weakness. However, he still posted marginal numbers in each playoff series.

People wanna talk about big men but most the time we had Gasol or Odom at the 5..

[DMAVS41]

lol kobe has won many playoff games without phil

so that is the barometer of success. how many playoff games you've won?

It is a non argument. Gasol could have joined the Spurs instead of the Lakers and won a ton. Odom...the same thing.

It was about finally being on a really good team.

Gasol and Odom had already shown what kind of players they were. The notion that Kobe "made them" is absurd....

You may not like it, but you don't just put up 21/10/3 by chance. You also don't just happen to lead average at best memphis squads to the playoffs 3 times either.

[VIP2000]

I watched the games, every single one. Bynum was an irrelavant as can be in 09. 10 wasn't that much better

Didn't average more than 25 mpg in either playoffs.

Odom was Odom, in consistent but at times an incredible asset who's well rounded game made up for some of the Lakers blatant weakness. However, he still posted marginal numbers in each playoff series.

People wanna talk about big men but most the time we had Gasol or Odom at the 5..

You don't think other superstars (CP3, Melo, Wade, LBJ, etc.) would have wanted a duo of 7-footers with post moves and a 6'10" point forward?

I don't think the '09 and '10 Lakers teams were stacked by any means, but they by far had the best frontcourt in the league. Dwight Howard in the '09 finals had trouble protecting the paint against one of them, let alone all 3.

[DMAVS41]

You don't think other superstars would have wanted a duo of 7-footers with post moves and a 6'10" point forward?

I don't think the '09 and '10 Lakers teams were stacked by any means, but they by far had the best frontcourt in the league. Dwight Howard in the '09 finals had trouble protecting the paint against one of them, let alone all 3.

The whole "stacked" thing depends on what context it is in.

The back to back Lakers were not historically stacked, but they were stacked in comparison to the rest of the league. Kobe was a top 3 player...and had the best supporting cast of all the best players in the league.

Very similar in many ways to the current Heat. Not historically stacked the way Bosh and Wade are currently playing. But they make up the best supporting cast in the league right now.

[Mr. Jabbar]

so that is the barometer of success. how many playoff games you've won?

It is a non argument. Gasol could have joined the Spurs instead of the Lakers and won a ton. Odom...the same thing.

It was about finally being on a really good team.

Gasol and Odom had already shown what kind of players they were. The notion that Kobe "made them" is absurd....

You may not like it, but you don't just put up 21/10/3 by chance. You also don't just happen to lead average at best memphis squads to the playoffs 3 times either.

look, gasol was not a bad player back in the day, he clearly lacked an under-pressure mentality though, you may not like it but 0-16 is not something you can just overlook. Anyway, this thread is to put kobes cast in those chips in perspective for some delusional guys, and I dont think you are one of them

[Solefade]

look, gasol was not a bad player back in the day, he clearly lacked an under-pressure mentality though, you may not like it but 0-16 is not something you can just overlook. Anyway, this thread is to put kobes cast in those chips in perspective for some delusional guys, and I dont think you are one of them


Saying that "Gasol was not a bad player" is so disrespectful to him. I'm not a Laker fan but he was so CRITICAL in those playoff runs in 09/10, I don't understand how you all can just brush off his impact in those years just so you can make a point that Kobe "did it with less". He was soft in '08 but he got over that hump in 09/10 and he got soft again (once he broke up with his girlfriend or whatever it was) and him being in the trade talks didn't help. But he was there when it mattered most.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Saying that "Gasol was not a bad player" is so disrespectful to him. I'm not a Laker fan but he was so CRITICAL in those playoff runs in 09/10, I don't understand how you all can just brush off his impact in those years just so you can make a point that Kobe "did it with less". He was soft in '08 but he got over that hump in 09/10 and he got soft again (once he broke up with his girlfriend or whatever it was) and him being in the trade talks didn't help. But he was there when it mattered most.

in the context of teams which won championships, kobe had average to below average help, thats all I'm saying,...and yes, gasol, was important.

[Cleverness]

Is it a coincidence that when players get old and/or injured, they don't perform as well?

No, it is not. Steve Nash won MVPs when he was in his prime and not old/injured. Dwight Howard took a team to the NBA Finals when he was not injured.

:hammerhead:

[STATUTORY]

Is it a coincidence that when players get old and/or injured, they don't perform as well?

No, it is not. Steve Nash won MVPs when he was in his prime and not old/injured. Dwight Howard took a team to the NBA Finals when he was not injured.

:hammerhead:

aging is not a valid excuse in Gasol's case

0-12 BEFORE Kobe, 0-4 AFTER Kobe

[Solefade]

I watched the games, every single one. Bynum was an irrelavant as can be in 09. 10 wasn't that much better

Didn't average more than 25 mpg in either playoffs.

Odom was Odom, in consistent but at times an incredible asset who's well rounded game made up for some of the Lakers blatant weakness. However, he still posted marginal numbers in each playoff series.

People wanna talk about big men but most the time we had Gasol or Odom at the 5..

Well shit, Bosh's impact doesn't show up in the numbers and at time he's inconsistent too, but he deserves all the credit for those little things he does for the team because someone has to. Bynum averaged around 15/8 in both of those championship seasons even with his limited minutes. You guys gotta be a little more objective about this, just saying.

[Solefade]

aging is not a valid excuse in Gasol's case

0-12 BEFORE Kobe, 0-4 AFTER Kobe


Who gives a shit what his record was before and after? We can all acknowledge that no team was going to win a chip with Gasol as the first option (and also Vancouver/Memphis was a shitty organization until recent) but the fact of the matter was he did some heavy lifting in those championship years. Although his play has dramatically declined since 09/10, he's still probably considered one of the most skilled big men today.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well shit, Bosh's impact doesn't show up in the numbers and at time he's inconsistent too, but he deserves all the credit for those little things he does for the team because someone has to. Bynum averaged around 15/8 in both of those championship seasons even with his limited minutes. You guys gotta be a little more objective about this, just saying.


Please post Andrew Bynums playoff stats for those 2 championship runs

[Nashty]

Watching the games >>>>>> reading about them years later

Explain me please why are the Lakers played better without Kobe?

I think it's because he is a chucker, and Lakers dominant bigs can't get their shots when he's playing, and without him the offense goes through them, and the team plays much better.

Kobe is a great individual player, but he is not a team player, and he has no impact on his teams record. And don't give me that 5 rings s***, he won those just because of dominant bigs. Kobe was just holding Lakers back, they would won more rings if they didn't had Chuckbe on their team.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Explain me please why are the Lakers played better without Kobe?

I think it's because he is a chucker, and Lakers dominant bigs can't get their shots when he's playing, and without him the offense goes through them, and the team plays much better.

Kobe is a great individual player, but he is not a team player, and he has no impact on his teams record. And don't give me that 5 rings s***, he won those just because of dominant bigs. Kobe was just holding Lakers back, they would won more rings if they didn't had Chuckbe on their team.


why should i?

Anybody who thinks a team w/o their best player is better for it doesn't deserve a response. Are you using those couple of games in the REGULAR season when Kobe was out to justify your stance? :lol

[DMAVS41]

look, gasol was not a bad player back in the day, he clearly lacked an under-pressure mentality though, you may not like it but 0-16 is not something you can just overlook. Anyway, this thread is to put kobes cast in those chips in perspective for some delusional guys, and I dont think you are one of them

Ok. So you yield.

All Gasol's early years proved is that he wasn't a superstar and was most likely a great 2nd option. Which was confirmed by his time with the Lakers. Same thing with Odom...not good enough to be the 2nd guy...but a great 3rd guy.

The Lakers were not historically stacked...but they were stacked in relation to the rest of the league at that time. Kobe had a top supporting cast each year they won it. They never played a team with better players. You could maybe argue the 10 Celtics before Perk got hurt...maybe.

Take a minute and compare those Lakers teams to the 11 Mavs or something. Those Lakers teams were just prototypical championship teams from the coach on down.

You guys trash Gasol and Odom a lot on here, but those guys take a giant steaming turd on the likes of Terry and Chandler...etc.

So I'd just enjoy the fact that you are fans of a team that routinely has great rosters year in year out.

[Solefade]

Please post Andrew Bynums playoff stats for those 2 championship runs


His numbers aren't great, they are like 8/6 or something like that but around ~25 minutes/pg but you also have to consider that he averaged 5-6 shots a game where Kobe averaged 23 FGA and Gasol averaged around 12-13 a game in both those 09/10 years.

[Nashty]

why should i?

Anybody who thinks a team w/o their best player is better for it doesn't deserve a response. Are you using those couple of games in the REGULAR season when Kobe was out to justify your stance? :lol

I'm not talking about this season, I'm talking about all of his seasons. He was never a factor, and that's not my opinion, that's a fact, just look at the Lakers win-loss record with or without him through the years. He was literally carried to 5 rings. Chuckbe is the most overrated player in the history of sports.

[TheMarkMadsen]

so that is the barometer of success. how many playoff games you've won?

It is a non argument. Gasol could have joined the Spurs instead of the Lakers and won a ton. Odom...the same thing.

It was about finally being on a really good team.

Gasol and Odom had already shown what kind of players they were. The notion that Kobe "made them" is absurd....

You may not like it, but you don't just put up 21/10/3 by chance. You also don't just happen to lead average at best memphis squads to the playoffs 3 times either.


I'm not on the side of "Kobe made Gasol" because he didn't, however i think you're undervaluing those Grizzly teams.

Each of those grizzlies teams that made the playoffs were extremely deep teams. Every one of those teams had 6 guys other than Gasol averaging double digit points for the season, which is pretty damn good.

[MaxFly]

And the point being? Nobody ever said Gasol was a championship first option. Nobody ever said Odom was anything other than a really good 3rd option on a title winning team.

Um... while you may not have said these things, they have been said. People have said that Gasol was the first option for those Lakers and was robbed of 2 Finals MVPs. People have said that Odom and Gasol carried Bryant. :confusedshrug:

[Solefade]

Um... while you may not have said these things, they have been said. People have said that Gasol was the first option for those Lakers and was robbed of 2 Finals MVPs. People have said that Odom and Gasol carried Bryant. :confusedshrug:

No one said Gasol was ever a first option, more like he just performed better than Kobe in the finals which there's some truth to.

[Straight_Ballin]

Both Odom and Gasol were already awesome players without Kobe. Bynum hasn't played a game yet without Kobe so we just don't know.

21/10/3
17/10/4

What are the above numbers you ask? You guessed it...the averages of Gasol and Odom the year before they both joined the Lakers.

But yea...they are nothing without Kobe.

These numbers alone are all that's needed to disprove the OP's logic. Maybe he should have checked the stats of these players before making such a silly thread.

[DMAVS41]

Um... while you may not have said these things, they have been said. People have said that Gasol was the first option for those Lakers and was robbed of 2 Finals MVPs. People have said that Odom and Gasol carried Bryant. :confusedshrug:

I've heard people claim Gasol was better than Kobe in the 10 finals...never that he was their first option or best player overall.

And, I mus stay, it is not crazy to say that Gasol was the best player in the 10 finals. It's a toss up to me. I guess it depends how much you value the last game.

All I know is that Gasol averaged 20/11/4 in the playoffs in 10 and came up huge in the biggest game of the playoffs. And stepped up time and time again with rim protection with Bynum playing limited minutes.

Not sure why Lakers fans have to try and credit Kobe with that.

I can't even imagine what Lakers fans would do having to pull for teams that weren't stacked for more than a couple years. Hell, you guys made Howard out to be a complete scrub this year....and many Kobe fans have tried to claim that Tyson Chandler was the reason the Mavs beat them in 11. Yet...Howard this year, even at his worst, is a much better player than Chandler.

So...just appreciate what you have Lakers fans.

[SpaceJammeR]

all those guys are great players. lmao

[Bandito]

Pau was considered the best big man in the game the year they won their chip in 2009 and 2010. Lamar was 6th man of the year before he got traded and Bynum was considered the 2nd best big man in the league before he got shipped off to Philly.

During their times they were great players but they've fallen off since, it has no correlation to Kobe other than the fact that they played together. It's disrespectful as hell to discredit these guys that were MAJOR pieces in getting the chip, not saying they completely carried Kobe though. OKC had to pick up Perkins and Ibaka to compete against Lamar/Gasol/Bynum so that has to account for something.
How many times do I have to tell you, Bynum didn't do crap in the championship years. He was known to be an injury risk, he still is. How moronic are you? Or did you started watching the NBA after 2012?:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Solefade]

How many times do I have to tell you, Bynum didn't do crap in the championship years. He was known to be an injury risk, he still is. How moronic are you? Or did you started watching the NBA after 2012?:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


How dumb and unobjective are you? The presence of Pau, Bynum, Lamar in the frontcourt dictated a lot of how teams played against them. Bynum had limited minutes (~25/pg) in the playoffs and also only average 5 or 6 shots a game. No shit your numbers are going to be dwarfed when you take that many shots a game and yet he still shot 53%+. He was healthy in time for the playoffs in 09/10 thats what mattered.

And even if you think he's "worthless" he was the 4th option on that team anyway. He's better than his stats says he is just like how you do the same with Bosh and the Heat.

And I'm sorry, I don't think I've ever spoken to you before. I tend to ignore/refuse to respond those who throw worthless points at me.

[Bandito]

Apparently you Laker fans didn't watch the games otherwise you wouldn't be discrediting Kobe's teammates.

That article is very informative, has good contextual information and facts.
No it doesn't it says Lakers without Kobe won more.

00-03 the Lakers won more with Shaq than without him.

Of course they did, take Kobe and you still have Shaq to pass the ball too. Take Shaq out and you have to depend on Kobe to shoot from the outside, with no defense on the block, due to Shaq leaving. I don't even remember if Shaq had a back up, or if they just played a lot of PF's or something.:facepalm

05-07 It says that Lamar Odom was more impactful with Odom than with Kobe again based on the W/L.

08-12 It says, again based on the W/L that Kobe didn't have any impact at all. Again take Kobe out and you still had the two towers and maybe Bynum if he wasn't injured. Take Gasol or Odom out (Bynum always was) and you have a hole in the middle, reminiscent of Shaq's days.

That article is bogus and retarded.:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Bandito]

Well shit, Bosh's impact doesn't show up in the numbers and at time he's inconsistent too, but he deserves all the credit for those little things he does for the team because someone has to. Bynum averaged around 15/8 in both of those championship seasons even with his limited minutes. You guys gotta be a little more objective about this, just saying.
If you want to be objective how many minutes did he average in the playoffs, 08, 09 and 10 and put that in perspective? Who cares about the regular season, I want to know the playoffs stats or the finals for that matter.

[TheMarkMadsen]

How dumb and unobjective are you? The presence of Pau, Bynum, Lamar in the frontcourt dictated a lot of how teams played against them. Bynum had limited minutes (~25/pg) in the playoffs and also only average 5 or 6 shots a game. No shit your numbers are going to be dwarfed when you take that many shots a game and yet he still shot 53%+. He was healthy in time for the playoffs in 09/10 thats what mattered.

And even if you think he's "worthless" he was the 4th option on that team anyway. He's better than his stats says he is just like how you do the same with Bosh and the Heat.

And I'm sorry, I don't think I've ever spoken to you before. I tend to ignore/refuse to respond those who throw worthless points at me.

must be why you ignored my request for you to post Bynums numbers in the post season for those 2 championship runs?

in the 2009 playoffs Bynum played 17 minutes per game and average 6 points and 4 rebounds per game while shooting 46%

in the 2010 playoffs Bynum played 24 minutes per game and averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds per game on 53%


you have no idea what you're talking about, Bynum STARTED and posted 6 & 4 as the STARTING CENTER and they still won a title.

[Bandito]

How dumb and unobjective are you? The presence of Pau, Bynum, Lamar in the frontcourt dictated a lot of how teams played against them. Bynum had limited minutes (~25/pg) in the playoffs and also only average 5 or 6 shots a game. No shit your numbers are going to be dwarfed when you take that many shots a game and yet he still shot 53%+. He was healthy in time for the playoffs in 09/10 thats what mattered.

And even if you think he's "worthless" he was the 4th option on that team anyway. He's better than his stats says he is just like how you do the same with Bosh and the Heat.

And I'm sorry, I don't think I've ever spoken to you before. I tend to ignore/refuse to respond those who throw worthless points at me.
I never said he was worthless but he was less of a a factor in those championship years than Fisher. Fisher had to fight against the top PG's of that era while Bynum was on the bench drinking gatorade. Who the fvck is talking about Pau or Odom. I believe they were great players, Pau still is. but Bynum in the championship yers didn't do sh1t. So stop talking about being objective when your agenda is only one is to prove Kobe is a scrub.

[VIP2000]

must be why you ignored my request for you to post Bynums numbers in the post season for those 2 championship runs?

in the 2009 playoffs Bynum played 17 minutes per game and average 6 points and 4 rebounds per game while shooting 46%

in the 2010 playoffs Bynum played 24 minutes per game and averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds per game on 53%


you have no idea what you're talking about, Bynum STARTED and posted 6 & 4 as the STARTING CENTER and they still won a title.

You're acting as if Andrew Bynum was a liability out there. He didn't score that much simply because he didn't get much shot attempts or that much playing time. He was still better than 90% of the centers in the league.

[Nashty]

No it doesn't it says Lakers without Kobe won more.

00-03 the Lakers won more with Shaq than without him.

Of course they did, take Kobe and you still have Shaq to pass the ball too. Take Shaq out and you have to depend on Kobe to shoot from the outside, with no defense on the block, due to Shaq leaving. I don't even remember if Shaq had a back up, or if they just played a lot of PF's or something.:facepalm

05-07 It says that Lamar Odom was more impactful with Odom than with Kobe again based on the W/L.

08-12 It says, again based on the W/L that Kobe didn't have any impact at all. Again take Kobe out and you still had the two towers and maybe Bynum if he wasn't injured. Take Gasol or Odom out (Bynum always was) and you have a hole in the middle, reminiscent of Shaq's days.

That article is bogus and retarded.:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So, article is retarted because it shows that Kobe could not win without Shaq, then later Odom, and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum, and those guys could win with without him :applause:

Kobe was better individual player than all of those players except Shaq, but he wasn't most valuable player to his team. It's all about wins, and Kobe couldn't give them wins without any of them, while those guys could without him.

Kobe was never ever the MVP of the Lakers team!!! :cheers:

[qrich]

Elton Brand must be the goat.

Without him, Jason Hart and Rick Brunson never got an opportunity.

Not to mention Guillermo Diaz, Will Conroy, Mamadou N;Diaye, Boniface N;Dong, Zeljko Rebraca, Doug Overton, Quinton Ross, Josh Moore, Tremaine Fowlkes, Daniel Ewing, Kirk Penny, Lionel Chalmers, Maurice Baker, Will Conroy, Yaroslav Korolev, Paul Davis, etc.

[Bandito]

So, article is retarted because it shows that Kobe could not win without Shaq, then later Odom, and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum, and those guys could win with without him :applause:

Kobe was better individual player than all of those players except Shaq, but he wasn't most valuable player to his team. It's all about wins, and Kobe couldn't give them wins without any of them, while those guys could without him.

Kobe was never ever the MVP of the Lakers team!!! :cheers:
I am not saying he was the MVP of 00 - 03 Lakers team, not even close, Shaq was that dominant. Heck 10 and 11 could be argued, but that article is talking about bullcrap about when he was on the sidelines and the other players were on the sideline without taking in context the team they were playing against.

Is the same argument Lebron stans said last year when Wade was on the sidelines and they were playing the worst of the east.

[Nick Young]

Both Farmar and Sasha left the NBA because of the lockout... Both played well in backup roles for NJ...Farmar was actually pretty good when he was able to start for the team...

What did Kobe do before Pau , Bynum, and Fish got to LA? Didn't make the playoffs and a couple of first round exits..


WHAT OTHER SUPERSTAR HAS LOST A SERIES AFTER THEY WERE UP 3-1? :roll:


HAS ANY TOP 10 PLAYER ALL TIME HAD THAT HAPPEN TO THEM? Just asking
What other superstar lead his team up 3-1 with Smush Parker and Luke Walton starting?:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Solefade]

must be why you ignored my request for you to post Bynums numbers in the post season for those 2 championship runs?

in the 2009 playoffs Bynum played 17 minutes per game and average 6 points and 4 rebounds per game while shooting 46%

in the 2010 playoffs Bynum played 24 minutes per game and averaged 8 points and 7 rebounds per game on 53%


you have no idea what you're talking about, Bynum STARTED and posted 6 & 4 as the STARTING CENTER and they still won a title.

I stated his numbers in a previous post, sorry didn't know it had to be official lulz. His numbers obviously aren't great but like I said, he averaged 5 and 6 attempts per game in 09 and 10 in the playoffs while averaging 17 mpg in 09 and 24 mpg in 10. I'm sure if he got more looks, he'd be way more productive as proof shows that in 10-11.

He started games but he never got to finish them that's why his minutes and production are dwarfed and that's totally fair because Odom and Gasol were better anyway.

http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p689/Solefade/bynum_zps9e0c46e7.png

[Solefade]

I never said he was worthless but he was less of a a factor in those championship years than Fisher. Fisher had to fight against the top PG's of that era while Bynum was on the bench drinking gatorade. Who the fvck is talking about Pau or Odom. I believe they were great players, Pau still is. but Bynum in the championship yers didn't do sh1t. So stop talking about being objective when your agenda is only one is to prove Kobe is a scrub.


I'm not out here to prove that Kobe is a scrub retard. I'm out here to show why you Laker fans shouldn't be discrediting his teammates in those championship years and my main argument was for Pau not Bynum. Madsen was the one that initially brought up Bynum. Learn to read previous post before you come out here with your guns blazing, son.

[Bandito]

What other superstar lead his team up 3-1 with Smush Parker and Luke Walton starting?:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Don't forget 19 year old Bynum...:roll:

[Bandito]

I'm not out here to prove that Kobe is a scrub retard. I'm out here to show why you Laker fans shouldn't be discrediting his teammates in those championship years and my main argument was for Pau not Bynum. Madsen was the one that initially brought up Bynum. Learn to read previous post before you come out here with your guns blazing, son.
It seems I was right and broke a nerve since you started insulting bro.:lol

I wasn't talking about his teammates, I was talking about Bynum specifically. I don't even talk about no one else in my posts except him, because he was the only one, that due to injuries was limited in games. If you watch the games you would see that he was slower than in 10-11 and the reason Phil took him out. Heck Phil even talk publicly about him once if I remember correctly. If you think Kobe stole his shot attempts I would recommend you to leave ISH please.:facepalm

[Nashty]

I am not saying he was the MVP of 00 - 03 Lakers team, not even close, Shaq was that dominant. Heck 10 and 11 could be argued, but that article is talking about bullcrap about when he was on the sidelines and the other players were on the sideline without taking in context the team they were playing against.

Is the same argument Lebron stans said last year when Wade was on the sidelines and they were playing the worst of the east.

Yes, it has it's flaws, but any of the all time greats have positive impact on his teams wins-losses when he's playing, and Bryant is the only one that has absolute zero impact, even worse, the team sometimes plays better without him.

[PickernRoller]

Pau was considered the best big man in the game the year they won their chip in 2009 and 2010. Lamar was 6th man of the year before he got traded and Bynum was considered the 2nd best big man in the league before he got shipped off to Philly.



What kind of shit is this?

Haters better quit this thread before they get called out for some of the stupidities said in here.

[Bandito]

Yes, it has it's flaws, but any of the all time greats have positive impact on his teams wins-losses when he's playing, and Bryant is the only one that has absolute zero impact, even worse, the team sometimes plays better without him.
Like this year when people were saying that for the last three games when he was out and then ball movement could not save Dwight and the Lakers against the mightiness of the Spurs.RIIIIIIIIIIGGHT.:biggums:

[KyleKong]

What kind of shit is this?

Haters better quit this thread before they get called out for some of the stupidities said in here.

I'm staying out of this argument but in 2009/2010 who was a better big man than Pau and why?

[Bandito]

What kind of shit is this?

Haters better quit this thread before they get called out for some of the stupidities said in here.
I can't believe I miss that LMAO....:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Solefade]

It seems I was right and broke a nerve since you started insulting bro.:lol

I wasn't talking about his teammates, I was talking about Bynum specifically. I don't even talk about no one else in my posts except him, because he was the only one, that due to injuries was limited in games. If you watch the games you would see that he was slower than in 10-11 and the reason Phil took him out. Heck Phil even talk publicly about him once if I remember correctly. If you think Kobe stole his shot attempts I would recommend you to leave ISH please.:facepalm

When did I ever say Kobe stole his attempts? All I'm saying about Bynum was he is better than people gave him credit for because he was playing behind two players that were better than him at the time and I understand his health was a factor. But I'm here to simply give credit to Pau who for some reason gets discredited all the time by Laker fans.

[PickernRoller]

I'm staying out of this argument but in 2009/2010 who was a better big man than Pau and why?

If you happen to not know then you got an issue. Name me 2. I think that's extremely easy. I mean they are superstars today still... better than Pau still....if you can't name them - well, not worthy telling you that.

[Solefade]

What other superstar lead his team up 3-1 with Smush Parker and Luke Walton starting?:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


LeBron getting Eric Snow and Larry Hughes to the finals was way more impressive.

[Bandito]

When did I ever say Kobe stole his attempts? All I'm saying about Bynum was he is better than people gave him credit for because he was playing behind two players that were better than him at the time and I understand his health was a factor. But I'm here to simply give credit to Pau who for some reason gets discredited all the time by Laker fans.
Again I am here to discredit Bynum involvement in the championship run:lol

Pau was awesome, though,:bowdown:

THat is why I call him Godsol!:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Without Gasol or Odom the Lakers don't win, but exchange Bynum with let's say Dalembert and they still win.

[KyleKong]

If you happen to not know then you got an issue. Name me 2. I think that's extremely easy. I mean they are superstars today still... better than Pau still....if you can't name them - well, not worthy telling you that.

Valid argument. Glad to see you took the mature approach with good insight and facts on my question.

:facepalm

[Solefade]

If you happen to not know then you got an issue. Name me 2. I think that's extremely easy. I mean they are superstars today still... better than Pau still....if you can't name them - well, not worthy telling you that.


Wtf kind of answer is this? You come in here yelling at people to get out because they're stupid and when someone asks you a legit question, you answer by asking another question? :facepalm gtfo bro you're one of those people that make Laker fans look bad.

[PickernRoller]

Valid argument. Glad to see you took the mature approach with good insight and facts on my question.

:facepalm

That's the proper answer you deserved. You are either into the argument or you're not. IF you claim what the other claims then I'll give you the clear cut 2 names. Then some more that are debatable.

[PickernRoller]

Wtf kind of answer is this? You come in here yelling at people to get out because they're stupid and when someone asks you a legit question, you answer by asking another question? :facepalm gtfo bro you're one of those people that make Laker fans look bad.

You're a clown son. A bad troll. Just give up. Some people here gave you too much attention it seems. Go blow off your time with someone's boner.

[Nashty]

Like this year when people were saying that for the last three games when he was out and then ball movement could not save Dwight and the Lakers against the mightiness of the Spurs.RIIIIIIIIIIGGHT.:biggums:

They played just two games with Blake and one game with Meeks who both started that last two games they won in the regular season without Kobe. And Nash played two games on one leg, don' act like it was only Bryant who was missing.

I would love to see Nash, Gasol and Howard healthy next season without Kobe, I guarantee they would have 55+ wins.

I don't think it's a coincidence how Bryant is the only all time great who have bad impact on his teams wins-losses.

[Solefade]

You're a clown son. A bad troll. Just give up. Some people here gave you too much attention it seems. Go blow off your time with someone's boner.

Still waiting for that answer bro.

[PickernRoller]

Still waiting for that answer bro.

I never said I was going to give you one. Last I remember I addressed someone else with that proposition. You're exposed anyhow - more so cause you are troll rather than what you really believe - although hard to say with morons like you. Like I said, jerk off to someone's dick.

[Bandito]

They played just two games with Blake and one game with Meeks who both started that last two games they won in the regular season without Kobe. And Nash played two games on one leg, don' act like it was only Bryant who was missing.

I would love to see Nash, Gasol and Howard healthy next season without Kobe, I guarantee they would have 55+ wins.

I don't think it's a coincidence how Bryant is the only all time great who have bad impact on his teams wins-losses.
Please, stans like you say the only reason they were 8 to begin with was solely on his shoulders, and now you're giving excuses as to why they lost in the first round?:no:

Double standards yo. Just leave ISH and never come back.

[NBASTATMAN]

He played the Suns with MVP Nash, Amar'e and Marion being up 3-1 was overachieving to start of, then he had his best player as Odom put some context in your stupid ranting.


WOW ANOTHER KOBESTAN... Don't know shit... Amare was hurt that year.. In fact the Suns didn't have a player over 6ft 8inches tall for that series vs the Lakers...U :mad:

[NBASTATMAN]

What other superstar lead his team up 3-1 with Smush Parker and Luke Walton starting?:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


Wow what a shitty comeback.. Is that all you can come up with? I guess the answer is no.. No other top ten all time player has lost after being up 3-1

[chazzy]

No other top ten all time player has lost after being up 3-1
Wilt

[elementally morale]

exactly. I consider Fisher the best player (not named shaq) on his own merits to have ever played with kobe

That would be Robert Horry.

[Nashty]

Please, stans like you say the only reason they were 8 to begin with was solely on his shoulders, and now you're giving excuses as to why they lost in the first round?:no:

Double standards yo. Just leave ISH and never come back.

You are a retard! How do you suppose to win when you're playing without Nash, Blake and Meeks, your first three choices on the guard positions?

And don't try to turn this into a this season debate, Lakers historically played better without Bryant, he is a no factor, put any other SG in the lineup and they are equally good, he brings absolutely nothing to his team except chucking his team out of wins. Lakers would have more rings if they had any other SG in the league who can play defense and won't chuck as much Kobe.

[AintNoSunshine]

All of them, considered by lebron(*) stans to be the ones "carrying" kobe through the 2009/2011 chips, have proven they are either scrubs, mental mdigets, underachievers or all of the above when they have played without kobe.

So tell me, is this just a bizarre coincidence?


Is it a coincidence Kobe cannot win without the most dominant front court in the league? Is it just a bizarre coincidence?

[Magic 32]

Is it a coincidence Kobe cannot win without the most dominant front court in the league? Is it just a bizarre coincidence?

and Lebron can't win without..........

[Magic 32]

LeBron getting Eric Snow and Larry Hughes to the finals was way more impressive.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/wizthree420.jpg

[AintNoSunshine]

and Lebron can't win without..........


Exactly, no one wins on their own. So this thread is retarded just as the person created it.

[Solefade]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/wizthree420.jpg

You realize that all 3 of these guys were all-stars right?

[Bandito]

You are a retard! How do you suppose to win when you're playing without Nash, Blake and Meeks, your first three choices on the guard positions?

And don't try to turn this into a this season debate, Lakers historically played better without Bryant, he is a no factor, put any other SG in the lineup and they are equally good, he brings absolutely nothing to his team except chucking his team out of wins. Lakers would have more rings if they had any other SG in the league who can play defense and won't chuck as much Kobe.
Again with the insults. If you are so mad just leave please. Bryant had the same predicaments thought the year, tye main reason they got the 8th place to begin but according to the stans the reason they lost was because of Kobe. Please take some time, go to a psychiatrist and get treatment because you my friend are obsessed with a person called Kobe and need help. If you want I cam adopt you so you can use my health plan if you don't have one. I will take a risk for a 13 year old abandoned kid.

[Nashty]

Again with the insults. If you are so mad just leave please. Bryant had the same predicaments thought the year, tye main reason they got the 8th place to begin but according to the stans the reason they lost was because of Kobe. Please take some time, go to a psychiatrist and get treatment because you my friend are obsessed with a person called Kobe and need help. If you want I cam adopt you so you can use my health plan if you don't have one. I will take a risk for a 13 year old abandoned kid.

That's true, he is the main reason they got to the 8th place, without him they would be top 1st or 2nd in the West.

[baller562]

That's true, he is the main reason they got to the 8th place, without him they would be top 1st or 2nd in the West.

Is this guy serious? They would be top team running there offense through who? Do you realize the small sample W-L size you are arguing.. since kobe hardly gets injured. You really think over the course of an entire season/playoffs, a team would perform better without having their elite wing?

[TheMarkMadsen]

That's true, he is the main reason they got to the 8th place, without him they would be top 1st or 2nd in the West.


Then why did they just get swept & blown out in every game against the Spurs :roll:

[Nashty]

Is this guy serious? They would be top team running there offense through who? Do you realize the small sample W-L size you are arguing.. since kobe hardly gets injured. You really think over the course of an entire season/playoffs, a team would perform better without having their elite wing?

He does get injured, but he doesn't want want to sit on the bench because the team would win more without him and he would be exposed.

I hope he will be injured the whole next season, I guarantee that Lakers will play better if Nash, Gasol and Howard can stay healthy.

[Nashty]

Then why did they just get swept & blown out in every game against the Spurs :roll:

Because the guys who started those games they win without Kobe didn't play in playoffs :cheers:

How do you expect to win with Morris, Goudelock as your starting backourt?

[DMAVS41]

Anyone that thinks a team is better off without Kobe on it is a moron. End of story.

Why the extremes? Why do we have to pretend like Pau and Odom weren't very good before LA...and great while they were there. Why do we have to pretend like Bynum didn't contribute positive things with his size and length?

Why do we have to pretend like Kobe isn't easily the best player on those teams?

So sick of this crap. Both ways.

Sick of hearing Kobe fans diminish Bynum...who averaged 9/7 in 24 minutes in the 2010 playoffs. And then hear the same fans talk like Tyson Chandler is god in 2011 for averaging 8/9 in 33 minutes per game.

[baller562]

Because the guys who started those games they win without Kobe didn't play in playoffs :cheers:

How do you expect to win with Morris, Goudelock as your starting backourt?

What happened in games 1 and 2?

[Nashty]

What happened in games 1 and 2?

Nash played on one leg, and Meeks didn't play in game 2.

[Nashty]

Anyone that thinks a team is better off without Kobe on it is a moron. End of story.



This is not what I think, this is a fact, they have the same or sometimes even better win-loss record without him in the lineup through his career, It's not like I made this up.

[DMAVS41]

This is not what I think, this is a fact, they have the same or sometimes even better win-loss record without him in the lineup through his career, It's not like I made this up.

So what? Is that supposed to prove something?

[Nashty]

So what? Is that supposed to prove something?

That he's never been the MVP of the Lakers. Best individual player yes, but not the most valuable.

[longtime lurker]

OP is correct Bynum can't even walk without being near the healing properties of Gawdbe :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

That he's never been the MVP of the Lakers. Best individual player yes, but not the most valuable.

Never?

Who was the most valuable Laker from 05 through 08?

And...meh...too small of a sample size. The Shaq Lakers may have been as good at times...even in the playoffs...without Kobe.

But since 04...those teams aren't nearly as good without Kobe. A few regular season games mean nothing.

[Nashty]

Never?

Who was the most valuable Laker from 05 through 08?

And...meh...too small of a sample size. The Shaq Lakers may have been as good at times...even in the playoffs...without Kobe.

But since 04...those teams aren't nearly as good without Kobe. A few regular season games mean nothing.

Lamar Odom was the MVP from 05 through 08.

Is it a coincidence that Kobe is the only all time great which team have the same or better record without him?

Just look at Bulls record without Jordan, Celtics record without Bird or without Russell, Lakers record without Magic, Mavs record without Dirk.....