Am I the one of the few who think Kobe deserved the MVP over CP3?

[black&scholes]

A lot of people say CP3 was robbed of his MVP in 2008 and that Kobe didn't deserve it, as much as I hate Kobe, I believe Kobe really deserved that MVP over CP3.

First of all, Kobe was a better player in 2008 than CP3. CP3 was rising to superstardom, but Kobe was still in the last year of his prime, and had outplayed CP3 in head to head matchups.

Secondly, Kobe's team was not more superior to CP3's team. Kobe's team comprised mainly of Odom and Gasol whom the Lakers received in midseason, and they still won more game than the Hornets who had prime David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja.

Third, Kobe played outstanding bball that year. His best year IMO. He learned to trust his teammates, play within his limits, and played efficiently while providing good defense. It was the last year in the NBA where he was still the best before being surpassed by Lerbron in 2009.

[Mr. Jabbar]

You're not alone dude, you're part of a special group, people who understand basketball :applause:

http://imageshack.us/a/img855/2597/kobebryantlebronjamesme.jpg

[black&scholes]

You're not alone dude, you're part of a special group, people who understand greatness :applause:

Kobe Bryant - Best player in the NBA - 2006-2008 :rockon: :rockon: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[tazb]

Who cares? According to Kobe-tards the MVP means nothing.

[Heavincent]

A lot of people say CP3 was robbed of his MVP in 2008 and that Kobe didn't deserve it

Barely anybody said that.

[black&scholes]

Barely anybody said that.


actually alot of people do

[2010splash]

Paul was definitely better than Kobe that year and did more with less. Kobe had a far superior supporting cast and won just one more game.

Paul: 21/4/12 on 49 FG% and a 28.3 PER
Kobe: 28/6/5 on 46 FG% and a 24.2 PER

Paul was clearly the better player and had much more of an impact on his team. If Kobe was on that Hornets team, no way they'd have won 56 games.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldnt say Paul was robbed. Jordan was robbed in 97. 69 wins, best player in the league, and all that?

Paul was the MVP....but not by a mile. It was pretty even.

Kobe never had one of those years that just screamed MVP. Numbers on a bad team like tmac or good but not crazy numbers on a team that would have been solid without him. He never like...drug a shitty team to crazy wins or did "My god..." numbers on a good team.

Compared to all the swingman MVPs? Jordans 5, Lebrons 4, Birds 3, and Docs 1?

Kobes 08 season probably comes in 13th...

If you throw in all guards period?

Add Magics 3, Oscars 1, Rose, AI and Nash?

18th or 19 best of like...21?

Kobe never had that magical season...unless PPG is magical no matter the results.

Which some people think. Which is fine. It was...special. I came home shocked by some of those 06 and 07 totals. But he wouldnt win any of the last 30 MVPs with those seasons.

Kobe is a better player than his MVP worthiness suggests. But fact remains...hes not had many strong cases to be MVP. I think he was like...3rd, then won, and was second a mile behind Bron...then maybe 5th?

It rarely all came together for Kobe MVP wise.

[shady6121]

I wouldnt say Paul was robbed. Jordan was robbed in 97. 69 wins, best player in the league, and all that?

Paul was the MVP....but not by a mile. It was pretty even.

Kobe never had one of those years that just screamed MVP. Numbers on a bad team like tmac or good but not crazy numbers on a team that would have been solid without him. He never like...drug a shitty team to crazy wins or did "My god..." numbers on a good team.

Compared to all the swingman MVPs? Jordans 5, Lebrons 4, Birds 3, and Docs 1?

Kobes 08 season probably comes in 13th...

If you throw in all guards period?

Add Magics 3, Oscars 1, Rose, AI and Nash?

18th or 19 best of like...21?

Kobe never had that magical season...unless PPG is magical no matter the results.

Which some people think. Which is fine. It was...special. I came home shocked by some of those 06 and 07 totals. But he wouldnt win any of the last 30 MVPs with those seasons.

Kobe is a better player than his MVP worthiness suggests. But fact remains...hes not had many strong cases to be MVP. I think he was like...3rd, then won, and was second a mile behind Bron...then maybe 5th?

It rarely all came together for Kobe MVP wise.

This.

[Heavincent]

actually alot of people do

A few idiots on ISH doesn't count.

[Nashty]

Kobe was never the MVP of the Lakers, then how could he be the MVP of the league :confusedshrug:

[dh144498]

Kobe was never the MVP of the Lakers, then how could he be the MVP of the league :confusedshrug:


http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kobe-finger-wag-kobe-bryant-gifs.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

I wouldnt say Paul was robbed. Jordan was robbed in 97. 69 wins, best player in the league, and all that?

Paul was the MVP....but not by a mile. It was pretty even.

Kobe never had one of those years that just screamed MVP. Numbers on a bad team like tmac or good but not crazy numbers on a team that would have been solid without him. He never like...drug a shitty team to crazy wins or did "My god..." numbers on a good team.

Compared to all the swingman MVPs? Jordans 5, Lebrons 4, Birds 3, and Docs 1?

Kobes 08 season probably comes in 13th...

If you throw in all guards period?

Add Magics 3, Oscars 1, Rose, AI and Nash?

18th or 19 best of like...21?

Kobe never had that magical season...unless PPG is magical no matter the results.

Which some people think. Which is fine. It was...special. I came home shocked by some of those 06 and 07 totals. But he wouldnt win any of the last 30 MVPs with those seasons.

Kobe is a better player than his MVP worthiness suggests. But fact remains...hes not had many strong cases to be MVP. I think he was like...3rd, then won, and was second a mile behind Bron...then maybe 5th?

It rarely all came together for Kobe MVP wise.
:pimp:

[Droid101]

Kobe's 35 PPG was historic in the new modern era. Everyone needs to start to come to grips with it.

Let me know the next time a player averages 40 ppg over a month, 35 ppg over a season, and their team still makes the playoffs and threatens a series win over a far superior team.

[Kblaze8855]

I forgot Bob cousys MVP....but **** Bob Cousys MVP.

^
Said it.

[Nashty]

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kobe-finger-wag-kobe-bryant-gifs.gif

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)
With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years
With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years
With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

It's pretty obvious that Kobe was never the MVP of the Lakers :no:

There is a difference between best individual player and most valuable player :cheers:

[longtime lurker]

Paul was definitely better than Kobe that year and did more with less. Kobe had a far superior supporting cast and won just one more game.

Paul: 21/4/12 on 49 FG% and a 28.3 PER
Kobe: 28/6/5 on 46 FG% and a 24.2 PER

Paul was clearly the better player and had much more of an impact on his team. If Kobe was on that Hornets team, no way they'd have won 56 games.

Remind me who's team made the finals again?

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe's 35 PPG was historic in the new modern era. Everyone needs to start to come to grips with it.

Let me know the next time a player averages 40 ppg over a month, 35 ppg over a season, and their team still makes the playoffs and threatens a series win over a far superior team.

Let me know when 40ppg means anything. Our numbers system being based on multiples of ten doesnt mean 40 is a lot more impressive than...37(Melo)...or 36/7/5(Tmac), or 34/8(Iverson...for 2 months) or 34/12 and 36/14 for 2 months....

Lets not act like it was some brave new worls of basketball playing,. It was a great scorer taking a lot of shots. He took 29 or more shots 32 times that year. Durant? 8 times in his career. And in those games he averages...40.25 points. Kobe took 29.6 a game in his 40ppg month.

Durant is less impressive because he never took 45 shots? Or 49?

Kobe is impressive for the skills that allow him to simply turn it on and off like that on command. But the totals themselves? He was asked to do it and others were not.

I strongly suspect that Kevin Durant taking 32, 41, 38, and 29 shots in a row results in some nasty totals.

It wouldnt make him any better.

It would just mean he took a gang of shots.

[2010splash]

Remind me who's team made the finals again?
That is not relevant to this discussion since the MVP is an award based on regular season play.

You honestly think Kobe could have led that Hornets team to a near identical record to that stacked Lakers team with Ariza/Gasol/Odom/Bynum/GOAT coach?

[Thechosen1]

there is no way anyone deserved it more than cp3 that year

he actually deserved it more the next year though

[dh144498]

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)
With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years
With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years
With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

It's pretty obvious that Kobe was never the MVP of the Lakers :no:

There is a difference between best individual player and most valuable player :cheers:


this dude really insinuating that Odom was more valuable than Kobe. :roll:

[Nashty]

this dude really insinuating that Odom was more valuable than Kobe. :roll:

This is not my insinuation, this is the truth, just look at the stats, it's pretty clear with whom they played better and without who they played worse.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This is not my insinuation, this is the truth, just look at the stats, it's pretty clear with whom they played better and without who they played worse.
:roll:

[FKAri]

relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDX4a5pCWbg

I remember this from 08.

[TheBigVeto]

A lot of people say CP3 was robbed of his MVP in 2008 and that Kobe didn't deserve it, as much as I hate Kobe, I believe Kobe really deserved that MVP over CP3.

First of all, Kobe was a better player in 2008 than CP3. CP3 was rising to superstardom, but Kobe was still in the last year of his prime, and had outplayed CP3 in head to head matchups.

Secondly, Kobe's team was not more superior to CP3's team. Kobe's team comprised mainly of Odom and Gasol whom the Lakers received in midseason, and they still won more game than the Hornets who had prime David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja.

Third, Kobe played outstanding bball that year. His best year IMO. He learned to trust his teammates, play within his limits, and played efficiently while providing good defense. It was the last year in the NBA where he was still the best before being surpassed by Lerbron in 2009.


You are wrong. Kobe didn't deserve that award.
/thread

[TheMarkMadsen]

I wouldnt say Paul was robbed. Jordan was robbed in 97. 69 wins, best player in the league, and all that?

Paul was the MVP....but not by a mile. It was pretty even.

Kobe never had one of those years that just screamed MVP. Numbers on a bad team like tmac or good but not crazy numbers on a team that would have been solid without him. He never like...drug a shitty team to crazy wins or did "My god..." numbers on a good team.

Compared to all the swingman MVPs? Jordans 5, Lebrons 4, Birds 3, and Docs 1?

Kobes 08 season probably comes in 13th...

If you throw in all guards period?

Add Magics 3, Oscars 1, Rose, AI and Nash?

18th or 19 best of like...21?

Kobe never had that magical season...unless PPG is magical no matter the results.

Which some people think. Which is fine. It was...special. I came home shocked by some of those 06 and 07 totals. But he wouldnt win any of the last 30 MVPs with those seasons.

Kobe is a better player than his MVP worthiness suggests. But fact remains...hes not had many strong cases to be MVP. I think he was like...3rd, then won, and was second a mile behind Bron...then maybe 5th?

It rarely all came together for Kobe MVP wise.

2000-2001 Lakers minus Kobe
1 Shaquille O'Neal
3 Horace Grant
4 Robert Horry
5 Rick Fox
6 Derek Fisher
7 Brian Shaw
8 Ron Harper
9 Greg Foster
10 Chuck Person
11 Tyronn Lue
12 Devean George
13 Isaiah Rider
14 Mark Madsen
15 Stanislav Medvedenko
16 Mike Penberthy
17 Sam Jacobson

I don't know how "solid" that team would have been :confusedshrug:

Not sure how far a duo of Shaq & Fisher would have gotten them

[daily]

Re: Am I the one of the few who think Kobe deserved the MVP over CP3?

No the voters thought so too

[Heavincent]

Did people forget that Kobe was playing on a crappy team for the first half of the season and still had them in great position? :confusedshrug:

[Nashty]

2000-2001 Lakers minus Kobe
1 Shaquille O'Neal
3 Horace Grant
4 Robert Horry
5 Rick Fox
6 Derek Fisher
7 Brian Shaw
8 Ron Harper
9 Greg Foster
10 Chuck Person
11 Tyronn Lue
12 Devean George
13 Isaiah Rider
14 Mark Madsen
15 Stanislav Medvedenko
16 Mike Penberthy
17 Sam Jacobson

I don't know how "solid" that team would have been :confusedshrug:

Not sure how far a duo of Shaq & Fisher would have gotten them

They were 11-3 without Kobe in the lineup that season, 6 wins were against .500+ teams

No Kobe, no problem :pimp:

[TheMarkMadsen]

They were 11-3 without Kobe in the lineup that season, 6 wins were against .500+ teams

No Kobe, no problem :pimp:

yeah they would have rolled through the playoffs

The HEAT were 5-1 without Lebron this year

No Lebron no problem right..?

[Doranku]

Lakers won the West despite their starting Center missing over half of the season. Also, I'm sure the Lakers/Hornets game at the end of the season played a role in the voters' decision when Kobe shitted all over Paul and the Hornets.

Lemme know when CP3 makes the Conference Finals then we can talk about MVP. :roll:

[Nashty]

yeah they would have rolled through the playoffs

The HEAT were 5-1 without Lebron this year

No Lebron no problem right..?

Actually, yes, the Heat is that strong, without LeBron you still have Wade, Bosh and some great three point shooters and defenders, and the East is so weak that they would have 60+ wins in the regular season and would get to the finals.

LeBron already proved that he can make his team better, Kobe did not :no:

[TonyMontana]

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)
With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years
With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years
With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

It's pretty obvious that Kobe was never the MVP of the Lakers :no:

There is a difference between best individual player and most valuable player :cheers:

Nice stats. The best part about it is they are statistical facts, not opinions like the Kobe stans use.

Kobe is the most overated athlete ever. High volume scoring from the perimeter is one of the easiest things to replace in basketball. And scoring is the only way Kobe leaves his imprint on the game. Having a 7 footer that dominates the paint is something that is VERY hard to replace.

[joeyjoejoe]

Ofcourse Paul was better and deserved MVP but kobe needed 1 for the resume just the way it is

[KyleKong]

Who cares? According to Kobe-tards the MVP means nothing.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

And yet they still complain how Kobe only has one MVP

[willds09]

u damn right kobe deserved that award, kobe should of had 3 truthfully speaking, lebron should have only 2.

[KyleKong]

u damn right kobe deserved that award, kobe should of had 3 truthfully speaking, lebron should have only 2.

:biggums:

I just don't understand this logic. LeBron's team had the best record in the entire league. Kobe, when injured, had a team that didn't have a playoff seed.

I'm not trying to insult you Wilds, or anyone else who thinks Kobe deserved the MVP, I just want someone to explain why he deserved it.

[KOBE143]

Kobe is the GOAT.. GOATbe!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[qrich]

Chris had the advantage that year, when it came to overall stats and impact to his team. The last game of the season and the fact that Kobe had yet to win a MVP probably played a part in the voters mind as they assumed Paul would be in the running to win one in the future and decided to use that to kind of "break the tie."

Besides that, KBlaze shut this thread down

[willds09]

:biggums:

I just don't understand this logic. LeBron's team had the best record in the entire league. Kobe, when injured, had a team that didn't have a playoff seed.

I'm not trying to insult you Wilds, or anyone else who thinks Kobe deserved the MVP, I just want someone to explain why he deserved it.
kobe was tha best player on tha best team, come on we talking about kobe bryant here:rolleyes: why did lebron deserve 2012 and 2013??:confusedshrug:

[KyleKong]

kobe was tha best player on tha best team, come on we talking about kobe bryant here:rolleyes: why did lebron deserve 2012 and 2013??:confusedshrug:

I got so confused there. I thought you were talking about the 2012-2013 season, ha ha. But I think CP3 was still robbed in 2008.

[dh144498]

I still can't believe someone actually said Odom was more valuable than Kobe in the mid-2000s. This forum is really filled with a lot of stupid people. :lol :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've always argued with people who called it a "career achievement" award. I can't fault those for thinking Paul deserved the award. It was debatable, but Kobe has always been my choice. He played his best ball from an all around standpoint, and most unselfish ball and was clearly the best player in the league while having the best record is in conference.

And the supporting cast argument never worked considering he had Gasol for just 26 games, Bynum for only 35, and they only got Gasol after Bynum went down with a season-ending injury.

[comerb]

I felt like it could have went either way and I don't begrudge Kobe that MVP in any fashion

[catquickspider]

I wouldnt say Paul was robbed. Jordan was robbed in 97. 69 wins, best player in the league, and all that?

Paul was the MVP....but not by a mile. It was pretty even.

Kobe never had one of those years that just screamed MVP. Numbers on a bad team like tmac or good but not crazy numbers on a team that would have been solid without him. He never like...drug a shitty team to crazy wins or did "My god..." numbers on a good team.

Compared to all the swingman MVPs? Jordans 5, Lebrons 4, Birds 3, and Docs 1?

Kobes 08 season probably comes in 13th...

If you throw in all guards period?

Add Magics 3, Oscars 1, Rose, AI and Nash?

18th or 19 best of like...21?

Kobe never had that magical season...unless PPG is magical no matter the results.

Which some people think. Which is fine. It was...special. I came home shocked by some of those 06 and 07 totals. But he wouldnt win any of the last 30 MVPs with those seasons.

Kobe is a better player than his MVP worthiness suggests. But fact remains...hes not had many strong cases to be MVP. I think he was like...3rd, then won, and was second a mile behind Bron...then maybe 5th?

It rarely all came together for Kobe MVP wise.

If you go purely by stats then yes. You have to consider the circumstances under which Kobe happened to be early in his career with Shaq. There was really no opportunity for your criteria of crazy numbers on a good team or taking a shitty team to a great winning record.

After he got his own team he had the chance to take a shitty team to a great winning record but did failed just as Jordan failed to take any of his shitty teams to a winning record.

By the time he got Gasol he was starting to decline and won his 2 rings at ages 30 and 31 and with all that mileage already.

Lebron's late cavs teams were not shitty. No shitty team in any universe is going to win 60 wins. In fact, those Cavs teams blew out the Lakers those two years and it seemed that they might have had a good chance to beat them if Lebron had not choked those 2 years.

He never screamed MVP to you because you have your own biased MVP based criteria as other people have their own. Which would explain why some players have gotten shafted over the years when it comes to the award.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Paul was definitely better than Kobe that year and did more with less. Kobe had a far superior supporting cast and won just one more game.

How did Kobe have a far superior supporting cast? Paul had David West, Tyson Chandler and Peja Stojakovic who remained healthy and were with the team all season. Kobe's teammates that were with the team for even half the season and rotation players were Lamar Odom, Derek Fisher, Luke Walton, Vladimir Radmanovic, Jordan Farmar and Sasha Vujacic.

He had Bynum for 35 games and were exceeding expectations before a season-ending injury to Bynum, and then they eventually traded for Gasol who played 26 games with the team and they were virtually unbeatable in those games(22-4)

It's disingenuous to act like he won 57 games with Gasol because Gasol played just 1/3 of their games, and with him, they were far above a 57 win pace.


Paul: 21/4/12 on 49 FG% and a 28.3 PER
Kobe: 28/6/5 on 46 FG% and a 24.2 PER

:roll:


Paul was clearly the better player and had much more of an impact on his team. If Kobe was on that Hornets team, no way they'd have won 56 games.

How was Paul "clearly" the better player? What are you basing this on, and how did you come to this conclusion?

You're probably right that Kobe doesn't win 56 with the Hornets based on how that team succeeded. But I doubt Paul wins 57 with the Lakers, especially with how his game would translate to the triangle offense.

[Unbiased_one]

A lot of people say CP3 was robbed of his MVP in 2008 and that Kobe didn't deserve it, as much as I hate Kobe, I believe Kobe really deserved that MVP over CP3.

First of all, Kobe was a better player in 2008 than CP3. CP3 was rising to superstardom, but Kobe was still in the last year of his prime, and had outplayed CP3 in head to head matchups.

Secondly, Kobe's team was not more superior to CP3's team. Kobe's team comprised mainly of Odom and Gasol whom the Lakers received in midseason, and they still won more game than the Hornets who had prime David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja.

Third, Kobe played outstanding bball that year. His best year IMO. He learned to trust his teammates, play within his limits, and played efficiently while providing good defense. It was the last year in the NBA where he was still the best before being surpassed by Lebron in 2009.

In 2007-08, kobe was 4th in the league in win shares. Only 4 times since 1965 has a player outside of the top 3 won mvp: Derrick rose in 2011, steve nash in 05 and 06, and iverson in 01. All are regarded as dubious mvps.

Kobe was 3.97 win shares behind the league leader chris paul. No MVP since 1965 has been so far behind the league lead. The MVP kobe won was more of a career achievement than one that he actually deserved.

Disclaimer: I know you're gonna pick me up on advanced stats, but win shares are actually pretty good and have strong correlation with winning...

[K Xerxes]

No, you're not. I would have probably picked Chris Paul, but it could have gone to either player deservedly.

[ShaqAttack3234]

In 2007-08, kobe was 4th in the league in win shares. Only 4 times since 1965 has a player outside of the top 3 won mvp: Derrick rose in 2011, steve nash in 05 and 06, and iverson in 01. All are regarded as dubious mvps.

Kobe was 3.97 win shares behind the league leader chris paul. No MVP since 1965 has been so far behind the league lead. The MVP kobe won was more of a career achievement than one that he actually deserved.

Disclaimer: I know you're gonna pick me up on advanced stats, but win shares are actually pretty good and have strong correlation with winning...


Win shares, like all of these ridiculous formula stats are just made up formulas with subjective values and subjective adjustments made based on what the person who made the formula himself values. Why anyone even considers such things I'll never know.

Basketball is the worst sport to judge by stats to begin with, but at least stats such as points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game ect. are simple, straight forward stats. Now, context is essential for all of these numbers such as the team you play on, system you play in, style the player himself plays ect. and how much one chooses to value these stats is entirely subjective, but at least I can see the reason for using them.

By the way, according to win shares, Clyde Drexler, not Hakeem was the Rockets MVP for the '95 playoffs.

[Nashty]

I still can't believe someone actually said Odom was more valuable than Kobe in the mid-2000s. This forum is really filled with a lot of stupid people. :lol :roll:

Middle 3 years
With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

It's obvious that Odom was more valuable. Learn how to read, moron!

[Nash]

Lebron probably deserved that one as well. 30/8/7 on 48% with the terrible cast for Cleveland.

[Unbiased_one]

Win shares, like all of these ridiculous formula stats are just made up formulas with subjective values and subjective adjustments made based on what the person who made the formula himself values. Why anyone even considers such things I'll never know.

Basketball is the worst sport to judge by stats to begin with, but at least stats such as points per game, rebounds per game, assists per game ect. are simple, straight forward stats. Now, context is essential for all of these numbers such as the team you play on, system you play in, style the player himself plays ect. and how much one chooses to value these stats is entirely subjective, but at least I can see the reason for using them.

By the way, according to win shares, Clyde Drexler, not Hakeem was the Rockets MVP for the '95 playoffs.

Look, win shares aren't perfect, but they were designed to measure what wins games...so they aren't even remotely subjective as the were literally built up using past nba data. The playoffs are a small sample size, so anomalies are more likely.

To see that win shares are pretty good, all you have to do is multiply career win shares (i.e. total impact), by WS/48 (to have some normalisation for playing time) and you get a list that looks almost exactly like the consensus top 10 all time. if that's not a corroboration of this particular stat, I don't know what is.

Also, simple stats are not good for evaluation. If the world's financial system was still run using the same metrics of 100 years ago, we'd be even more screwed than we are now. Times change, evaluation improves.

[Kblaze8855]

If you go purely by stats then yes. You have to consider the circumstances under which Kobe happened to be early in his career with Shaq. There was really no opportunity for your criteria of crazy numbers on a good team or taking a shitty team to a great winning record.

After he got his own team he had the chance to take a shitty team to a great winning record but did failed just as Jordan failed to take any of his shitty teams to a winning record.

By the time he got Gasol he was starting to decline and won his 2 rings at ages 30 and 31 and with all that mileage already.

Lebron's late cavs teams were not shitty. No shitty team in any universe is going to win 60 wins. In fact, those Cavs teams blew out the Lakers those two years and it seemed that they might have had a good chance to beat them if Lebron had not choked those 2 years.

He never screamed MVP to you because you have your own biased MVP based criteria as other people have their own. Which would explain why some players have gotten shafted over the years when it comes to the award.

Im not talking just about his numbers. He has either not been winning or been winning on teams he didnt need to do that much to make into winners. And unlike Lebron he wasnt doing it in dominating fashion...and even if you think he was...he wasnt doing it while winning more than 60 games 3 times. Two of them top 10 all time records(66 twice).

Kobe has not done much of what wins you MVPs. Just how it is. Not like its my lonely opinion. Hes been in the league 17 years and won one MVP...and like 50 first place votes didnt go to him when he won it.

Early season it was KG for MVP...middle it was Paul and Kobe....Kobe pulled away with a couple weeks to go as he finished a game or two up. Paul is probably literally like....4 jumpers away from being the 08 MVP. 4 shots fall to give him team those Ws he probably wins.

He was closer to Kobe than Kobe has ever been to winning it in any season but 08. He got more MVP points in 2008 than Kobe has taken in any season....but that one. Kobe 2006, 07, 09, 10, 11, 12, and 13 combined...7 years combined...he has 1 more first place vote than Paul got in 2008 alone.

Kobe just has not been that serious of an MVP candidate. Not my voting.

As I said I dont think Paul got robbed. He just would have had my vote. It was close enough to not be upset Kobe won. But he just isnt usually that close.

And he shouldnt be. He was his teams second best player for years, won I think 34, 42, and 45 games, then he won, and then had good but not absurdly good records on really good teams while not being terribly individually dominant.

It isnt an MVP situation.

As I said hes better than his usual MVP voting as a player. But he just has not had years that scream MVP. Cant give it to Kobe playing with Gasol/Bynum as he wins 56-60 games over Lebron winning 66 with Mo williams and Sideshow Bob. All that east/west shit doesnt really matter to history. If it did Magic never would have won one in a conference so weak he played 39 win teams in the WCF and the best team he played before the finals some years won 45 games.

You win what you win. Kobe never had dominant records with his good teams or drug bad teams to anything close to a good record. You dont tend to win MVP in those situations. Especially not with someone like Lebron hanging around dropping 30/9/8 and winning 60+ games with role players.

Kobes great. Hes been great for like...14 years. His case for MVP has only been good once.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Look, win shares aren't perfect, but they were designed to measure what wins games...so they aren't even remotely subjective as the were literally built up using past nba data. The playoffs are a small sample size, so anomalies are more likely.

How are they not remotely subjective? They're completely subjective because what wins games is subjective itself.

But the Hakeem/Drexler example is just one, and while the playoffs are a relatively small sample size, it still shows some of the ridiculous results it can generate. Plus, Houston did play 22 games in those playoffs, and while Drexler had an excellent playoff run for a second option, Hakeem had a truly incredible run that has to be in the discussion for best ever.

Then you mention win shares per 48 minutes, well, they had Drexler better than Hakeem during the regular season as well looking at just Clyde's time with Houston that season.


To see that win shares are pretty good, all you have to do is multiply career win shares (i.e. total impact), by WS/48 (to have some normalisation for playing time) and you get a list that looks almost exactly like the consensus top 10 all time. if that's not a corroboration of this particular stat, I don't know what is.

A stat happening to add up with a result you agree with doesn't necessarily make it good. It could be argued as a good stat if you can explain why the formula itself makes sense or is something to be considered.

But none of these formula stats are made by people who played or coached the game at a high level, so why should we care about a stat based on what THEY value? And I've never heard a coach mention win shares or PER.

Merely looking at the results of win shares, aside from the Drexler/Hakeem example, there are countless others.

According to win shares, both Pau and Bynum were better than Kobe in 2012, and Pau was 2nd in the entire league in win shares during the 2011 season. Ryan Anderson was 9th in win shares during the 2012 season.

If you want to look at the results of the stat, these say a lot. And just looking at the past 3 seasons, I could list numerous other examples that look like an absolute joke.


Also, simple stats are not good for evaluation. If the world's financial system was still run using the same metrics of 100 years ago, we'd be even more screwed than we are now. Times change, evaluation improves.

Comparing basketball to finances in terms of numbers? :facepalm That is no way, shape or form a reasonable

Look, some of the things that are used now that weren't in the past are some nice additional tools. I believe +/- is one of these, though more useful for line ups than individual players, imo and like all stats, it's never the end all, be all and context is important.

But I also think eFG% is another nice addition, TS% as well, though it'd be more accurate if they used and 1s now that play by play data goes back pretty far rather than the 0.44 thing.

These are all stats that offer a little more insight, are straight forward with nothing subjective about how they were created, and can be explained in less than 5 seconds.

But really, all these formula stats are is the basic stats, except with 1 or 2 added variables and subjective values given to the basic stats and subjective adjustments for pace and minutes played.

If I want to look at stats and see someone averaged 25/5/5 or 20/10/3/2, I don't need someone telling me how much to value each category, and then I'd consider if a team played at a fast pace, and how that may have affected this player's stats, which would depend entirely on how the player succeeded, and when looking at stats, I'd also consider the difference in a player being in a Lebron Cavs or Chris Paul Hornets role where they have the ball all the time and can pretty much play their game as opposed to someone who has to fit their game into an offensive systems like triangle, flex, princeton ect.

There's no way to say how much any of the variables actually affect these numbers, and these formulas in no way get us closer to knowing this. But if you know these things from watching these players play and see the numbers, anyone with a decent understanding of the game should be able to have an idea of how the players got these numbers, how impactful they actually were and how much the numbers themselves actually mean vs watching them play.

[yobore]

I would have given it to CP but don't feel it was a great injustice, Kobe wasn't far behind and hadn't won one yet.

Now as for 2009 All-NBA team, there is no way in hell Kobe should have got that over CP.