Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

[Shade8780]

I'd have to go with Larry. Back in the 80s, he was always considered the better player of the two and was being called the GOAT back then before MJ. My All Time list goes MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic.

[K Xerxes]

Well, Magic had a more successful career with more accolades. He had 2 more rings, 1 more finals MVP and played longer. That's what people who didn't watch the game back then ultimately look at.

However, in their prime, it was no argument. Larry was better. If Larry's back didn't give up on him that early, he would have unquestionably gone down better overall than Magic.

[RichieW]

Never saw either play but I've heard many times that Bird was considered the better player in the 80s.

Magic had a stronger roster with Kareem and Worthy. Wasn't the East stronger than the West too? The East had the Sixers, Bulls, Pistons and Celtics, who was challenging the Lakers in the West?

[gengiskhan]

Personally speaking

Larry Bird

-He was a fantastic player.

-A coaches dream to build a franchise.

-An oppositions worse nightmare.

-Almost a weapon on the court who never needed ball in his hand to absolutely DOMINATE the game.

-He positioned himself excellently.

-He slithered thru defenses sometimes literally went unrecornized till he hits CLUTCH basket after CLUTCH basket.

-He got to 25 ppg without even his own team knowing it.

-The best OFF THE BALL player ever. Got to 10+ rpg in no time. Got to 8 apg in no time.

-deadly post-up game that never wasted a dribble or energy.

-a team mates DREAM player. teammates AUTOMATICALLY got better playing with LEGEND.

-Top 5 GOATs to ever play the game.

[colts19]

Larry was clearly the better player. He was also older and more mature when they first came into the league. Had Larry came in when he was 19 he would have won at least a couple more MVP's.

Magic was the best floor general, I ever saw. Both were a Joy to watch. You can't go wrong either way.

[Ancient Legend]

Prime: Larry
Career: Magic

Overall: Larry by a smidgen.

[Cali Syndicate]

Bird was the better forward, magic the better guard.

I prefer bird's game over magic's though.

[Sarcastic]

Magic is the best passer of all time. I'll take him.

[pauk]

Well, Magic had a more successful career with more accolades. He had 2 more rings, 1 more finals MVP and played longer. That's what people who didn't watch the game back then ultimately look at.

However, in their prime, it was no argument. Larry was better. If Larry's back didn't give up on him that early, he would have unquestionably gone down better overall than Magic.

This.

[inclinerator]

larry bird as a player, magic has better resume

[get these NETS]

Magic dragged an on his way out Worthy,young Vlade and Sam Perkins into the NBA Finals

and beat a peak Blazers team to do it..



If Kidd could drag the NEW JERSEY NETS into the finals...I'm convinced that peak Magic could be added to any contender/ or decent talented team in modern era and take them over the top...

can't say that about Bird...

[9erempiree]

Magic is a greatest of all time player.

Bird is an era-specific player.

[K Xerxes]

Magic is a greatest of all time player.

Bird is an era-specific player.

This is without a doubt the worst post I have ever seen. Even by a troll.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic dragged an on his way out Worthy,young Vlade and Sam Perkins into the NBA Finals

and beat a peak Blazers team to do it..


If Kidd could drag the NEW JERSEY NETS into the finals...I'm convinced that peak Magic could be added to any contender/ or decent talented team in modern era and take them over the top...

can't say that about Bird...

Great point about Magic. I get tired of those that claim that he had Kareem. The fact was, he carried an awful Kareem to a title in '88, and with the surrounding talent LA had in '87, I have no doubt that they would have won by giving more minutes to Thompson and Green, and without Kareem, in that season. And, had Magic not been injured in game two of the '89 Finals, he might have won yet another ring.

Then, after Kareem retired following the '89 season, Magic took a team that had gone 57-25 the year before, and with Kareem, to a 63-19 record, without Kareem.

And, as posted above, he took an injury-riddled, and rapidly declining LA team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals the next season (his last.)

How did LA do after Magic retired? They plummetted to a 43-39 record, and followed that up with a 39-43 record the next year.

And early on, all Magic did was take a severely under-achieving team to a 60-22 record in his rookie season, and then, in a game six, on the road, and without Kareem, led LA to a world title, with a monster 42-15-7 game. Two years later he would take over the team, and lead them to yet another title, winning another FMVP in the process.

[jlip]

Well, Magic had a more successful career with more accolades. He had 2 more rings, 1 more finals MVP and played longer. That's what people who didn't watch the game back then ultimately look at.

However, in their prime, it was no argument. Larry was better. If Larry's back didn't give up on him that early, he would have unquestionably gone down better overall than Magic.

:confusedshrug:
Magic retired in '91. Bird retired in '92...unless you're counting Magic's brief comeback in '96

[gengiskhan]

This is without a doubt the worst post I have ever seen. Even by a troll.

remember. a kobe'tard a full retard will always show his true colors at some point.

Kobe is the only one who is era specific.

I cannot see kobe outperforming Dominique or Clyde in '80s or '90s.

Bird has transformed the game forever.

Bird singlehandedly showed athleticism is EXTREMELY OVERRATED.

Jordan frequently said, if he had to pick a starting 5 for the team. Bird is an AUTOMATIC first player to be picked.

[K Xerxes]

:confusedshrug:
Magic retired in '91. Bird retired in '92...unless you're counting Magic's brief comeback in '96

Magic played at a higer level longer. By 88-89, Bird suffered from awful back injuries. I think he even admitted he should have retired back then.

[Micku]

There are some things that Magic did better than Bird and vice versa.

Most of the time, Magic normally don't disappoint in the playoffs. He shoots a very high percentage because he picked his shots very well, better than Bird. He'll take over when needed.

Bird didn't have guys that free him up early on in his career like Magic, but in his prime, I like Bird's game better. IMO, I think he was better in the post although Magic was not bad himself, off the ball, shooter, and a better post defender.

You can't really go wrong with either. If you want a point guard, pick Magic. If you want a SF/PF, you pick Bird.

[Derka]

I gotta go with Larry. His injuries really spoiled what could have been several very productive years.

Larry and the 86 Celtics...that was me losing my basketball virginity. When Larry was on, there was just nothing like it until Jordan came along and took the crown of GOAT.

These guys playing together...might have been the best basketball ever to occur had it happened more frequently.

[eliteballer]

Well, Magic repeatedly outplayed Peak Bird in the Finals despite being 3 years younger so...

[Smoke117]

I value Larry more myself because he had the entire package like nobody else. He was an unstoppable scorer, he gave you 10 boards, 6-7 assist and HE PLAYED DEFENSE. That is the main distinction between Bird and Magic to me. Larry before his back problems was an excellent team/help defender and for my money that is more important that being some "stopper". You affect the game more when you are great team/help defender (i'll take Jason Kidd in his prime defensively vs Gary payton anytime of the week). Magic on the other hand was average at best on defense.

[Shep]

magic

[jlip]

It seems as if Bird was considered better from '80 to '86. The '87 Finals is when people started saying that Magic was better.

[eliteballer]

I value Larry more myself because he had the entire package like nobody else. He was an unstoppable scorer, he gave you 10 boards, 6-7 assist and HE PLAYED DEFENSE. That is the main distinction between Bird and Magic to me. Larry before his back problems was an excellent team/help defender and for my money that is more important that being some "stopper". You affect the game more when you are great team/help defender (i'll Jason Kidd in his prime defensively vs Gary payton anytime of the weak). Magic on the other hand was average at best on defense.

:roll: Bird couldn't guard ANYONE man to man. Magic could at least matchup with guys around his own size even if he had trouble with little guys....and he led the league in steals.

[LLK21]

Statistically, Bird was a better player. Magic had a greater impact on the game itself. I think Magic is better overall and had a better career, but Magic never had the injuries that Bird had. Also Magic played way better defense.

[LAZERUSS]

While Bird was considered the best player in the league in the mid-80's, I believe Magic was actually the better player in the ealry 80's, and certainly from '87 on.

Magic was somewhat under-rated in the early 80's, because he had Kareem as a teammate. And while an early 80's Kareem was still a formidable player, by '82 Magic was already the better player. And Magic's play in the post-season in '80 and '82 was just sensational.

And I always get a laugh out of those that mention "Tragic" Johnson in the '84 Finals. Yep...a "Tragic" who averaged 18 ppg, led his team in rebounding, averaged 13 apg, and shot .560 from the floor.

Overall, Magic had the better career, and was a better post-season performer.

[KOBE143]

Magic

Bird is just an era-specific player.. His ceiling in today's league would be Scalabrine at best..

[LAZERUSS]

Magic

Bird is just an era-specific player.. His ceiling in today's league would be Scalabrine at best..

I agree. And players like a prime Nash and Kevin Love would be nothing in other eras, as well.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Larry no question and ppl overrated Magic playing longer. They both have 10 allnba teams both 9 1st and 1 2nd. Plus Larry got alldefense teams he was better allaround player for sure

[Le Shaqtus]

Magic

Bird is just an era-specific player.. His ceiling in today's league would be Scalabrine at best..

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Where's that dumbest things said on ISH thread?

[LAZERUSS]

Larry no question and ppl overrated Magic playing longer. They both have 10 allnba teams both 9 1st and 1 2nd. Plus Larry got alldefense teams he was better allaround player for sure

Yeah... let's punish Magic for playing better, longer. In his last full season, all he did was average 19.4 ppg, .477 FG%, .906 FT%, .320 3pt%, 7.0 rpg, and 12.5 apg. Oh, and led a crumbling Laker team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. Does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that had Magic not had his career cut short by HIV, that he wouldn't have been an elite player for at least a couple of more seasons?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Yeah... let's punish Magic for playing better, longer. In his last full season, all he did was average 19.4 ppg, .477 FG%, .906 FT%, .320 3pt%, 7.0 rpg, and 12.5 apg. Oh, and led a crumbling Laker team to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals. Does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that had Magic not had his career cut short by HIV, that he wouldn't have been an elite player for at least a couple of more seasons?
He played more than Larry but they still have the same amount of allnba teams:confusedshrug: if larry didnt fix his mas pavement by himself he wouldnt have back problems and hed undoubtebtly go down better than magic he was flatout better in their primes:no:

[KOBE143]

I agree. And players like a prime Nash and Kevin Love would be nothing in other eras, as well.
Maybe Nash and Love wouldn't be the same in other era but Im sure they could end up as a decent starter and would've a high chance to be an allstar in any era..

[wakencdukest]

I give much respect to Bird, but I gotta go with Magic. He was the most unselfish player ever, the best passer the game has ever known, he could take over games offensively when he wanted, could post up and bang inside, rebound, was a great free throw shooter, he just did it all and made everyone that he played with better. His only faults were, he wasn't a great outside shooter,(but he was respectable later in his career), and he had trouble guarding small quick point guards(to be fair they had trouble with him also).

[Kurosawa0]

I always lean Magic. 9 Finals appearances is one of the greatest runs by any player or team.

[LAZERUSS]

He played more than Larry but they still have the same amount of allnba teams:confusedshrug: if larry didnt fix his mas pavement by himself he wouldnt have back problems and hed undoubtebtly go down better than magic he was flatout better in their primes:no:

Clearly not the case. Better, perhaps, but in Bird's greatest regular season, he had a horrible post-season, culminated by a pathetic performance against the Pistons, in which he shot .341 in a six game series loss. How did Magic perform against that Piston team? 21.6 ppg on .550 shooting.

If anything, the separation was much greater from '87 on, than what it was before that.

And people tend to forget that Magic could have been a much higher scorer. I believe Psileas commented that later in his career, Magic had a streak of 11 straight games of 30+ points. Of course, how about his game six of the '80 Finals, and without Kareem, when he scored 42 on 14-23 shooting (and 14-14 from the line)? Or a clinching game three against Hakeem's Rockets in the late 80's, in which he scored 38 points on 14-20 shooting.

Furthermore, Magic was a much more efficient shooter, particularly in the post-season. Bird never had a Finals in which he shot above .488 (and one in which he shot .419.) Magic had FIVE in which he shot over 50% including .573, .560, .550, and .541.

[ShaqAttack3234]

To me, Bird was unquestionably the better player until '87, and the two were very close in '87 and '88. After that, it was obviously Magic.

Prime vs prime, it's close. Take say '85-'88 Bird compared to '87-'90 Magic, or '84-'88 Bird vs '87-'91 Magic and you can't go wrong with either, but I'll take Bird. Difficult to compare them as players since it depends on what you favor. Both were arguably the best rebounders to ever play their position, and Magic was arguably the best passer of all-time, but Bird was the greatest passing forward ever, and certainly a top 10 passer overall, imo. Bird was the better scorer, though Magic became a very good scorer himself later in his career to the point you had to double him in the post, but he'd pick apart the doubles. Bird was definitely the better defender, though.

[LAZERUSS]

Maybe Nash and Love wouldn't be the same in other era but Im sure they could end up as a decent starter and would've a high chance to be an allstar in any era..

Yet, I am supposed to believe a Bird would be nothing more than a Scalabrine in today's NBA?

Makes no sense. Didn't Bird play in an era of MJ, Dr.J, Magic, Isaiah, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Dominque, etc? And yet he was considered the best player in the league in a few of those seasons? But then, perhaps, mayeb you are suggesting that all of those guys would be scrubs in today's NBA.

[La Frescobaldi]

Too close to call for me depends what your team needs at the time

[Nero Tulip]

I was born after all that but seems to me Magic was pretty much better in every way :confusedshrug:

I just don't see the argument for Bird. People saying stuff like "Bird was the better player" but there's absolutely nothing to support it.

[PotOdds]

It's unfortunate the young uns never got to see prime Bird.

Think a better Nowitzki. Better shooter. Actually a better rebounder than the 7 footer. :eek:

Long range shooting on par with Reggie Miller and Ray Allen.

Dude was in the 50/40/90 club twice.

Damn Magic or Bird. Real tough, can't go wrong with either. They are ELITE hall of famers. Depends on which position you need to fill.


Magic

Bird is just an era-specific player.. His ceiling in today's league would be Scalabrine at best..

[LAZERUSS]

Maybe someone can explain "era-specific player" to me.

[La Frescobaldi]

I was born after all that but seems to me Magic was pretty much better in every way :confusedshrug:

I just don't see the argument for Bird. People saying stuff like "Bird was the better player" but there's absolutely nothing to support it.

You just have to watch film my friend. Lots and lots of film.
Bird was a better shooter from first to last, and a better scorer. Magic really wasn't better than Bird at anything. Maybe dribbling. Like I said earlier, this one is too close to call. It really would come down to what your team needs.

But to say one or the other is "better in every way"............. shows clearly you don't know anything about their games and worse, you don't even bother finding out.

[plowking]

I was born after all that but seems to me Magic was pretty much better in every way :confusedshrug:

I just don't see the argument for Bird. People saying stuff like "Bird was the better player" but there's absolutely nothing to support it.

:oldlol:

Nothing to support it? Better stats, more impact, better defensively, etc. What more do you want.

Bird was being called the greatest player to ever play the game quite regularly in the middle of his career. If you were born after all of it, read up, and then you'll see all the things that point to Bird being quite clearly the better player.

[gengiskhan]

Maybe someone can explain "era-specific player" to me.

Sure.

"era specific" is a term coined by Kobe stans, lakers stans.

It is applied to any all-timer who shoots 50%FG or is insanely efficient or ULTRA CLUTCH in post-season & finals.

this makes kobe's ball hogging, chucking 25ppg career ave at 45%FG look PATHETIC & to deliberately protect kobe's INFLATED legacy, these all-timers automatically become "era specific"

Thats about it.

Examples of "era specific" players according to Kobe'tards

1.Bird
2.moses
3.Dr. J
4.Sir. Charles
5.D'Rob
6.Hakeem
7.Duncan

list goes on & on. Any player thats all-time Top 10-18 with exception of Bird.

[Pointguard]

Magic hit the floor running and was instantly ready for the spotlight and changing the look of the game. It took a minute before Bird got the playoff thing right (It wasn't until his fifth year til he got it right and then he was phenomenal). Magic had already won two finals MVP's by that time. Most of the responsibility of changing the league and putting a winning face on it was on Magic. He also had several key players that weren't so happy with his attention and fame. Whereas, Bird's team was built around him and Aurabach would have shipped you out of town if you had a problem with that.

When Bird did come of age he had one of the most complete games and was able to dominate with it. '84 to '86 was a display of beauty, skill and the perfect mentality to boot. The rivalry was in Bird's favor to me at this time.

In '87 the pendulum swung back to Magic as he showed the incredible ability to run a team to perfection. He was at the core of a team that just flourished unlike any other in terms of efficiency and attack.

It seemed weird that both players had this great all around game and came into the league at the same time. Nevermind their ability to take the game to new heights while increasing the fans ability to know and love the game. They took on a lot of responsibility and still flourished.

[Doctor Rivers]

Magic is a greatest of all time player.

Bird is an era-specific player.

you're just a dumbass all around

[PotOdds]

Magic was magic. There was a reason why his name was so apropos. Incredible passer, one of the best all-time, definitely better than Bird. Super efficient scorer. Well over 50% for most of his prime. He ended up .520 fg% lifetime. The shyt he did, like being the center in the championship game. Precursor to LeBron. Saying LeBron is Magic 2.0 might be stretching it but not unreasonable.


Bird was a better shooter from first to last, and a better scorer. Magic really wasn't better than Bird at anything. Maybe dribbling. Like I said earlier, this one is too close to call.

[fpliii]

I'm not sure, but if we're considering these guys at their respective bests, surely Doc deserves some play as well (though I think I'd go peak Bird, the two are very close IMO).

[1987_Lakers]

Magic had a more successful career & has the edge in longevity, but I believe Bird was the better player when both were at the top of their game.

Magic was a better transition player, ball handler, & passer (Bird was a fantastic passer as well), but that is where the advantages end for Magic.

Bird was a better shooter, he was a better scorer, better post game, better rebounder, he is the best passing forward in history, and he was a better overall defender than Magic. Bird could simply beat you in more ways.

[La Frescobaldi]

Magic was magic. There was a reason why his name was so apropos. Incredible passer, one of the best all-time, definitely better than Bird. Super efficient scorer. Well over 50% for most of his prime. He ended up .520 fg% lifetime. The shyt he did, like being the center in the championship game. Precursor to LeBron. Saying LeBron is Magic 2.0 might be stretching it but not unreasonable.
You won't get any argument from me about Magic Johnson.
I was in the stands, about 15000 rows behind "Shining Jack the Dull Boy's" seat when Kareem went back on court for the end of game 5 in that Finals.The whole of LA was cheering those last minutes!!
And then on tv tape delay while we went way out in the high desert drinking tequila .... the even more dramatic last game in Philly when Magic lined up for the tip, AND it was in the House that Wilt Built..... man the whole basketball world just went meltdown during that game!!

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird was the better player, Magic did more winning but for the most part he had better teammates than Bird, the East was stronger (GOAT conference) and Sf's the same (GOAT era for Sf's), also that 1980 FMVP belonging to Kareem.

Bird was pretty much always the better player when they were both healthy, better peak also.
Bird was always considered the better player when they were both healthy, only time Magic beat him as far as MVP voting was in 1987.
When Bird got to the Celtics they were one of the worst teams in the league, Magic had a top3 GOAT in Kareem close to his peak, a really good and underrated PG in Nixon to learn from, and guys like Wilkes.
Bird got them from 2nd worst to best record, Finals in his 2nd year with the major addition of Parish, McHale only start to really break out like in 1984 and by 1987 had career ending injuries, Parish was pretty good, great longevity and consistent but you weren't getting more than his usual.



Well, Magic repeatedly outplayed Peak Bird in the Finals despite being 3 years younger so...

lmao
Bird killed the Lakers in the 1984 despite his teammates (worse than Magic's) underperforming like a lot, with Magic choking.
Still great in 1985 despite hand injury.
Still took them to 6 games in 1987, already with back issues, and no team to compete.

[SHAQisGOAT]

:roll: Bird couldn't guard ANYONE man to man. Magic could at least matchup with guys around his own size even if he had trouble with little guys....and he led the league in steals.


Lmao, how old are you, 11?

Bird was a really good post defender and he could hold his own on the perimeter, his team D was amazing.

> 1st in the league in DWS and 6th in DRtg in 1980, no McHale or Parish on the team, got them from one of the worst defensive teams to one of the best, with the same team, no bigman blocking more than 1 shot or something like that, no other teammate even remotely close to him as far as DWS and DRtg

> 4 times led the league in DWS, 7 times in the top5
> 6 times in the top10 in DRtg, 2nd in 1984
> 1.7 spg and 0.8 bpg for his career

McHale never was top10 in DWS or DRtg, Parish in the mid 80's was not even blocking more than 1.5 shots pergame.
If it was today people would go wild over those advanced stats, he would make the all-defensive team everytime, to say the least of the crazyness.

Bird made 3 all-defensive teams and could've should've made more even though the league had some great defensive forwards with already established rep.
Magic never made the all-defensive team once, average defender in his best days, Bird always really good, not even comparable.

How underrated can this guy get defensively? Just crazy.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Larry was the better shooter from everywhere, better scorer, even better postgame, better rebounder, better defensive player, higher intangibles.
Magic was the better passer (and Bird's one of the GOAT passers), better handler and better finisher.

Bird was definitely the better player.
Magic got 2 more titles and won more FMVP but like I've said, he played in a weaker conference, had better teammates for the most part (wasn't even the clear cut man for plenty of time), Sf's better than Pg's in the league at that time, and Kareem deserved 1980 FMVP.
Bird was always above in MVP voting except for 1987 when they were healthy, was always 1st all-nba when he was healthy, 3 all-defensive also.

Magic's hype grew bigger because he's one of the most flashiest ever, really outspoken and always everywhere unlike Bird, black man in a black men's sport, played in LA...
People who know their shit or were alive back then know that when they were both healthy Bird was pretty much always the better player, better peak also.

[jzek]

Larry Legend

[SHAQisGOAT]

Clearly not the case. Better, perhaps, but in Bird's greatest regular season, he had a horrible post-season, culminated by a pathetic performance against the Pistons, in which he shot .341 in a six game series loss. How did Magic perform against that Piston team? 21.6 ppg on .550 shooting.

If anything, the separation was much greater from '87 on, than what it was before that.

And people tend to forget that Magic could have been a much higher scorer. I believe Psileas commented that later in his career, Magic had a streak of 11 straight games of 30+ points. Of course, how about his game six of the '80 Finals, and without Kareem, when he scored 42 on 14-23 shooting (and 14-14 from the line)? Or a clinching game three against Hakeem's Rockets in the late 80's, in which he scored 38 points on 14-20 shooting.

Furthermore, Magic was a much more efficient shooter, particularly in the post-season. Bird never had a Finals in which he shot above .488 (and one in which he shot .419.) Magic had FIVE in which he shot over 50% including .573, .560, .550, and .541.

Talking about 1988? His better RS as far as raw stats only maybe, he already had plenty of severe injuries, had to carry all the load since 1986 when players where getting old, lots of injuries, Celtics had virtually no bench... He couldn't do more than he did between 1987 and 1988.

Bird's peak definitely tops Magic, and again when they were healthy he was the best player for the most part easily. Magic only was above him as far as MVP voting in 1987. Magic arrived at a great Lakers team with Kareem a top3 GOAT close to his peak, Nixo a great PG to learn from, Wilkes, adding other guys, Kareem was having one of the GOAT Finals in 1985 still.
Bird walked into a terrible Celtics team and made them one of the best and by 1987 they were done, not because of Bird.
Bird absolutely went crazy in the 1984 PS and go look at what his teammates did, absolutely underperforming.
Again Magic had better teammates, considering the years and their level, for the most part and played in a weaker conference and had weaker PG competition than Bird at Sf

You're underrating Bird here.

[La Frescobaldi]

Magic is a greatest of all time player.

Bird is an era-specific player.

9erempiree is an ISH specific poster.

Would not last 10 minutes on a moderated forum.

If KBlaze,RMWG or those guys could actually moderate this board I doubt you'd make the full 10 minutes. Too much foul stench swirling round the history of your posts.

[Pushxx]

Bird.

[Djahjaga]

9erempiree is an ISH specific poster.

Would not last 10 minutes on a moderated forum.

If KBlaze,RMWG or those guys could actually moderate this board I doubt you'd make the full 10 minutes. Too much foul stench swirling round the history of your posts.

There are moderated forums?! Someone point me to one, cuz ISH is getting annoying.

[ProfessorMurder]

Magic hit the floor running and was instantly ready for the spotlight and changing the look of the game.

:rolleyes: Biggest one season turnaround ever (until 08 Celtics). That was Bird in his rookie year.

[Pointguard]

Talking about 1988? His better RS as far as raw stats only maybe, he already had plenty of severe injuries, had to carry all the load since 1986 when players where getting old, lots of injuries, Celtics had virtually no bench... He couldn't do more than he did between 1987 and 1988.

Bird's peak definitely tops Magic, and again when they were healthy he was the best player for the most part easily. Magic only was above him as far as MVP voting in 1987. Magic arrived at a great Lakers team with Kareem a top3 GOAT close to his peak, Nixo a great PG to learn from, Wilkes, adding other guys, Kareem was having one of the GOAT Finals in 1985 still.
Bird walked into a terrible Celtics team and made them one of the best and by 1987 they were done, not because of Bird.
Bird absolutely went crazy in the 1984 PS and go look at what his teammates did, absolutely underperforming.
Again Magic had better teammates, considering the years and their level, for the most part and played in a weaker conference and had weaker PG competition than Bird at Sf

You're underrating Bird here.

Magic really was better than Bird their first 4 years, primarily because of playoff play - Bird always managed to have a real bad playoff series, then it was Bird's peak for three years and then Magic was better from '87 on. Eight better years to three in favor of Magic is too much to overlook.

If you say Magic gained a FMVP you have to give it back to him because Magic was definitely a much better player in the finals when Worthy won it.

In one of the Celtic championships Cedic Maxwell was the FMVP. And only those who really watched to the game would know who he was. Even when Bird was in his super peak prime Mchale definitely outplayed him in the 1985 finals when they lost to Magic/Lakers. Bird also had series where he outplayed in elimination series by Dr. J and Marques Johnson, which isn't bad but it proves he had a pretty slow start. There are at least two series where he and Big Game James were on par - only a slight edge to Bird. Bird's domination at the position wasn't really that long. But I definitely think his peak was most impressive.

[Pointguard]

:rolleyes: Biggest one season turnaround ever (until 08 Celtics). That was Bird in his rookie year.

I wasn't talking about regular season pressure - read the next sentence it makes that very clear.

[Iceman#44]

Magic maybe has a better career, but i think that Bird has a better peak.

1984-1986 Bird was unreal...and don't forget, in the middle 80's there was a lot of Bird talk on GOAT discussion...he was called GOAT by a lot of people...

To me, Bird is really underrated...

[Rasheed1]

Magic was better than Bird.. Not by alot but he was the better player. They both had great players around them and magic beat bird head up more than vice versa.

[Legends66NBA7]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Where's that dumbest things said on ISH thread?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239468

[SHAQisGOAT]

Magic really was better than Bird their first 4 years, primarily because of playoff play - Bird always managed to have a real bad playoff series, then it was Bird's peak for three years and then Magic was better from '87 on. Eight better years to three in favor of Magic is too much to overlook.

If you say Magic gained a FMVP you have to give it back to him because Magic was definitely a much better player in the finals when Worthy won it.

In one of the Celtic championships Cedic Maxwell was the FMVP. And only those who really watched to the game would know who he was. Even when Bird was in his super peak prime Mchale definitely outplayed him in the 1985 finals when they lost to Magic/Lakers. Bird also had series where he outplayed in elimination series by Dr. J and Marques Johnson, which isn't bad but it proves he had a pretty slow start. There are at least two series where he and Big Game James were on par - only a slight edge to Bird. Bird's domination at the position wasn't really that long. But I definitely think his peak was most impressive.


Bird averaged 20.5/12.8/5.8/2.0/1.0 on 45/27/86, in his 1st 4 years in the ps
Magic averaged 17.8/10.3/10.3/2.7/0.5 on 50/9/81, in his first 4 years in the ps

Looking at their teammates

Bird's:
Parish - 17/10 with 2.7 blocks on 49/70, from 81 to 83
McHale - 12/5 with 1.6 blocks on 56/79, from 81 to 83
Maxwell - 16/8 on 57/78, from 80 to 83
Tiny - 13 pts with 6.7 assts on 44/83, from 80 to 83

Magic's:
Karem - 27/10/3 with 3.5 blocks on 55/73, from 80 to 83
Nixon - 19 with 7.6 assts on 48/77, from 80 to 83
Wilkes - 20/6 on 49/73, from 80 to 83
Mcadoo - 15/6 on 53% fg, from 82 to 83
Cooper - 10/4/4 on 48/80 and his usual great D, from 80 to 83

Magic easily had the better teammates plus they were playing better, and wasn't even the clear-cut man main, Kareem was for the most part.
Bird was the clearcut main man and leader, definitely played better overall D also, faced also better overall competition in the East.
Yea Magic won two Finals and two MVPs (one belonging to Kareem), but Bird still managed to win a title with a team that was terrible before him, adding Parish and McHale (who was still young and not playing much) in his 2nd year. Can't see how Magic is REALLY better, in any way. Plus in the regular season it's easily Bird and that means something also.

I won't go against that, but it was close and Worthy had that amazing decisive game 7, much close than Magic to Kareem in 1980. What Kareem did in 5 games in the 80 Finals (not to mention the rest of the playoffs and so on) was more impactful and better than what Magic did in 6. There wouldn't even be a game 6 if it wasn't for Kareem, and he would've returned in game 7 to finish them and continue the destruction. Plus Wilkes also had an amazing game 6 that goes overlooked.

I've watched those games, Bird struggled in plenty of them with his shooting while Maxwell scored like 2.5 ppg more than Bird, much more efficient from the field, was more clutch and consistent than Bird as far as scoring throughout the series, but Bird easily trumps in every other aspect, he put up 15 rebounds, 7 assts, 2.3 blocks and 0.5, always grittier and tougher playing better D.
Many of Cedric's (easy) points came from Bird's playmaking and from Larry getting all the attention, no superstar talent on that team or close besides him, Parish was solid not much, Tiny played like crap.
Bird put up 27/13/5 on 11/20 from the field in the decisive game 6, clutch as hell in the 4th, leading the celtics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A
He could've easily gotten FMVP.

Are you gonna overlook the fact that Bird badly injured his hand in a bar fight during the 1985 playoffs, there's not much to say about it, still averaged 24/9/5 on 45/33/85. In 1984 he completely destroyed the Lakers with every teammate really underperforming, think it would be any different in 1985 if he was healthy? Still Kareem had to had one of GOAT Finals in 1985 for the Lakers to beat the Celtics.
In 87 the Celtics were dealing with injuries and had no bench whatsoever, Bird played 40.6 mpg in the rs and 44.1 in the ps, having some of the most gruelsome series ever before the Finals, see what he did vs the Pistons for example, they wouldn't even get to the Finals if he wasn't for him giving his all and playing like crazy, while the Lakers just had to coast on their way to the Finals. Leading them the Celtics still took one of the GOAT teams to 6 games, Bird still put up 24/10/6 on 45/50/92.
Are you really gonna compare Worthy to Bird? Worthy had like only one series where he matches up to Bird as far as scoring when Bird had an injured hand, Bird much better in every other aspect always and he was 1st option, getting much more attention.

Bird's domination at the position not that long? Lmao gtfo, when he was healthy(er), 1980-1988, he was always all-nba 1st, 7 times top 2 in MVP, completely changed the Celtics to much better, playing in the goat era, playing in the goat era for Sf's, in the goat conference, plenty of times teammates underperforming, plenty of times playing against better teams on paper.

[eliteballer]

Please post their total averages of the 3 head to head finals they played in and keep in mind Magic was 3 Years younger and won 2 out of 3:D

[zass]

Magic thinks it's him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShf9yw7leg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VqmWu7cwDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B25hiGoeVts

[Le Shaqtus]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239468

:cheers:

[ShaqAttack3234]

As far as Bird's '88 season, it was one of his best, with the only decline at all appearing to be at the defensive end to some extent. But he got in better shape entering that season and his offensive game was at it's peak as it had been the last few years due to extensive work on his shooting and individual moves over the first half of his career.

As far as an explanation for Bird's playoff series vs Detroit, well, here's what was said by commentators during the games in both the Atlanta and Detroit series as well as quotes I've read from Bird himself.

What was talked about a lot with Boston that year. They had virtually no bench at all. If you look in the playoffs, 3 of their 5 starters played 40+ mpg with Bird averaging 45 mpg, a 4th starter averaging 39.4 mpg and Robert Parish averaging 36.8 mpg. Bird also had to carry Boston more during the first month of the series since McHale didn't play until December.

They were also coming off of 4 consecutive deep playoff runs to the finals, and fatigue was also talked about after the 7 game series vs Atlanta as well as Bird apparently being sick early in the Detroit series.

Regarding Bird's shooting struggles, Bird himself said he was second-guessing his shots at time. I think it was fatigue at first, but that the slump also got into his head. If you watch the series, you'll see at times that Bird took a few uncharacteristic shots for him, which even the commentators noted, as well as the fact that he didn't look as comfortable shooting at times.

Don't get me wrong, Bird does deserve criticism for shooting 35%, especially in series that would have been winnable despite Detroit's depth if Bird had shot decently. Just trying to provide a little insight into how prime Bird shot just 35% in a series, especially after a season he had averaged 30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting which is hard to imagine. Though I will say that Bird played very well in every other area. He passed well as usual, he defended Dantley well and played good team defense and he rebounded very well. The Celtics still needed Bird to shoot much better so it's still a poor series for him, but he was impressive in other areas.

Here are a couple of excerpts from an article about Bird's slump.


A cabdriver outside Boston Garden said he had heard reports that Larry Bird had undergone tests for mononucleosis.

A bellhop at the hotel said: ''Do you notice how tired Bird looks? I haven't seen him looking this way since the Celtics were swept by the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1983 conference semifinal.''

What prompted such speculation among Celtic fans was Bird's second successive poor shooting performance, Thursday night in the Eastern Conference final against the Detroit Pistons. Bird was 8 for 20 from the floor in Game 1 Wednesday night, and the Celtics suffered a rare home loss, 104-96. On Thursday, he shot 6 for 20, and the Celtics needed two overtimes to pull out a 119-115 victory and send the series to Detroit tied, 1-1.

Before the Celtics won, they set up Bird twice to try to win the game. Most times, Bird, one of the best clutch shooters in basketball, comes through. But he failed on a 17-foot jumper with 10 seconds remaining in regulation time and was called for traveling in the first overtime with the score tied, 109-109. Unusual Route to Victory


''I don't know what Larry's problem is,'' said K. C. Jones, the Celtic coach, after the game Thursday night. ''His arm motion does not look familiar to me when he's firing it up. He had one of the poorest outside shooting nights I've ever seen him have.''

Bird and the people around him deny any health problems. But Bird has never made excuses for poor games. After several poor-shooting games in the series against the Atlanta Hawks, Bird was repeatedly asked if he had a head cold. He denied it, although it was obvious that he had one.

When asked again Thursday night if anything was troubling him, Bird said: ''I feel great. I played hard on the defensive end. I was just second-guessing my shots. I was getting my usual picks but I was thinking whether I should shoot or pass.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/28/sports/nba-playoffs-bird-making-no-excuses-for-his-slump.html

[kenuffff]

Bird was the better player, Magic did more winning but for the most part he had better teammates than Bird, the East was stronger (GOAT conference) and Sf's the same (GOAT era for Sf's), also that 1980 FMVP belonging to Kareem.

Bird was pretty much always the better player when they were both healthy, better peak also.
Bird was always considered the better player when they were both healthy, only time Magic beat him as far as MVP voting was in 1987.
When Bird got to the Celtics they were one of the worst teams in the league, Magic had a top3 GOAT in Kareem close to his peak, a really good and underrated PG in Nixon to learn from, and guys like Wilkes.
Bird got them from 2nd worst to best record, Finals in his 2nd year with the major addition of Parish, McHale only start to really break out like in 1984 and by 1987 had career ending injuries, Parish was pretty good, great longevity and consistent but you weren't getting more than his usual.




lmao
Bird killed the Lakers in the 1984 despite his teammates (worse than Magic's) underperforming like a lot, with Magic choking.
Still great in 1985 despite hand injury.
Still took them to 6 games in 1987, already with back issues, and no team to compete.

uh.. the celtics probably had the best front court in nba history during this time frame..

[TheBigVeto]

Bird is better.

Magic isn't even the best Laker in that Showtime teams - Kareem was. So Magic's success is due to the fact that he rode a GOAT's coattail. Plus his rings after David Stern took office are all tainted and asterisked.

The only things Magic is better than Bird is passing and getting AIDS.

[KOBE143]

Yet, I am supposed to believe a Bird would be nothing more than a Scalabrine in today's NBA?

Makes no sense. Didn't Bird play in an era of MJ, Dr.J, Magic, Isaiah, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Dominque, etc? And yet he was considered the best player in the league in a few of those seasons? But then, perhaps, mayeb you are suggesting that all of those guys would be scrubs in today's NBA.
No doubt, Bird was a great player in his era.. That's why he's one of the candidate for GOAT era-specific player.. The problem with era-specific player are they're only great in their era.. Their game would not transcend in any era unlike all time great player like Magic, MJ, Hakeem, KAJ... Most of the era-specific player came from the 50s, 60s and the most known era-specific player in that era were Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain..

Maybe someone can explain "era-specific player" to me.
I know you're a smart poster from April 2013 batch.. Hopes you already understand what is an era-specific player.. :cheers:

[Odinn]

Please post their total averages of the 3 head to head finals they played in and keep in mind Magic was 3 Years younger and won 2 out of 3:D
Why are you acting like an idiot constantly?

Aside from 1984 Finals, the Celtics had no depth in their bench. So does Bird. Especially 1987 Finals, the Celtics had no bench literally. They were just throwing some players(garbage-time players mostly) to the field so the main guys can rest.

Also Bird and the Celtics were getting roughed up by the strong ECF teams and some serious matchups (Erving and Wilkins are first ones that came to mind), the West was a joke back then. They didn't have a bench and they got to the Finals with expending much more energy.


But here is the numbers;
Bird; 42.1 mpg 25.3 ppg 11.1 rpg 4.6 apg 1.7 spg 1.0 bpg 2.9 tpg 19.2 fga 8.1 fta on .475 efg .864 ft (29.3 eff)
Magic; 40.3 mpg 20.7 ppg 7.5 rpg 11.9 apg 2.2 spg 0.4 bpg 3.4 tpg 15.2 fga 5.2 fta on .536 efg .778 ft (31.1 eff)


But if I know about somethings about uncontrolled fans like you, you will not change your attitude and say some bs about their mpg.

[TheBigVeto]

Why are you acting like an idiot constantly?


He's not. He's a kobetard. He's a real idiot.

[Round Mound]

Bird Was Better and Was a Better Defender than Magic.

Bird Was NOT an Era Specific Player He Averaged 20-9-6 at age 35 in 1992.

[eliteballer]

Why are you acting like an idiot constantly?

Aside from 1984 Finals, the Celtics had no depth in their bench. So does Bird. Especially 1987 Finals, the Celtics had no bench literally. They were just throwing some players(garbage-time players mostly) to the field so the main guys can rest.

Also Bird and the Celtics were getting roughed up by the strong ECF teams and some serious matchups (Erving and Wilkins are first ones that came to mind), the West was a joke back then. They didn't have a bench and they got to the Finals with expending much more energy.


But here is the numbers;
Bird; 42.1 mpg 25.3 ppg 11.1 rpg 4.6 apg 1.7 spg 1.0 bpg 2.9 tpg 19.2 fga 8.1 fta on .475 efg .864 ft (29.3 eff)
Magic; 40.3 mpg 20.7 ppg 7.5 rpg 11.9 apg 2.2 spg 0.4 bpg 3.4 tpg 15.2 fga 5.2 fta on .536 efg .778 ft (31.1 eff)


But if I know about somethings about uncontrolled fans like you, you will not change your attitude and say some bs about their mpg.

Now why would I change my mind when those numbers back up what I'm saying? Magic blows him away especially in the efficiency department.

Magic averaged 21.5 points 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl on 57% FG in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old rookie. Know what Bird was doing at that age? Playing against boys 2 years before Magic would beat him in the NCAA championship.

Magic won more, he BEAT AND OUTPLAYED PEAK BIRD MULTIPLE TIMES ON THE BIGGEST STAGE WHILE BEING 3 YEARS YOUNGER. He could play all 5 positions and was more versatile because of his ballhandling ability, and was BY FAR a bigger mismatch.

The West had PLENT of competition.

The Defending champion Sonics in 1980
Drexler's Blazers
Robinson/Nance/Johnson Suns cracking 50 wins every year.
Sampson/Hakeem Rockets
Blackman Mavs
Stockton/Malone Jazz
Gilmore/Gervin Spurs

[ShaqAttack3234]

Why are you acting like an idiot constantly?

Aside from 1984 Finals, the Celtics had no depth in their bench. So does Bird. Especially 1987 Finals, the Celtics had no bench literally. They were just throwing some players(garbage-time players mostly) to the field so the main guys can rest.

Also Bird and the Celtics were getting roughed up by the strong ECF teams and some serious matchups (Erving and Wilkins are first ones that came to mind), the West was a joke back then. They didn't have a bench and they got to the Finals with expending much more energy.


But here is the numbers;
Bird; 42.1 mpg 25.3 ppg 11.1 rpg 4.6 apg 1.7 spg 1.0 bpg 2.9 tpg 19.2 fga 8.1 fta on .475 efg .864 ft (29.3 eff)
Magic; 40.3 mpg 20.7 ppg 7.5 rpg 11.9 apg 2.2 spg 0.4 bpg 3.4 tpg 15.2 fga 5.2 fta on .536 efg .778 ft (31.1 eff)


But if I know about somethings about uncontrolled fans like you, you will not change your attitude and say some bs about their mpg.

Bird also had a number of injuries in the '85 finals, and he had missed a couple of games earlier in the playoffs because of some of those injuries, iirc. Bird himself would never use injuries as an excuse, but I think it's pretty clear that they were a factor in the '85 finals.

[Straight_Ballin]

Sure.

"era specific" is a term coined by Kobe stans, lakers stans.

It is applied to any all-timer who shoots 50%FG or is insanely efficient or ULTRA CLUTCH in post-season & finals.

this makes kobe's ball hogging, chucking 25ppg career ave at 45%FG look PATHETIC & to deliberately protect kobe's INFLATED legacy, these all-timers automatically become "era specific"

Thats about it.

Examples of "era specific" players according to Kobe'tards

1.Bird
2.moses
3.Dr. J
4.Sir. Charles
5.D'Rob
6.Hakeem
7.Duncan

list goes on & on. Any player thats all-time Top 10-18 with exception of Bird.

That's funny because Kobe is the biggest era specific player of all time.

[eliteballer]

Bird also had a number of injuries in the '85 finals, and he had missed a couple of games earlier in the playoffs because of some of those injuries, iirc. Bird himself would never use injuries as an excuse, but I think it's pretty clear that they were a factor in the '85 finals.

:oldlol: Maybe we should just ignore Magic's injury in 81, Worthy's injury in 83, Magic and Scott's injuries in 89, Worthy and Scott's injuries in 91, give him 9 titles and call it a day.

[Pushxx]

Bird Was Better and Was a Better Defender than Magic.

Bird Was NOT an Era Specific Player He Averaged 20-9-6 at age 35 in 1992.

With a broken back no less.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: Maybe we should just ignore Magic's injury in 81, Worthy's injury in 83, Magic and Scott's injuries in 89, Worthy and Scott's injuries in 91, give him 9 titles and call it a day.

I was referring to Bird's individual play in the series. :oldlol: at Magic's injury in '81. He returned with more than a month left in the regular season and averaged 21.8 ppg in the 17 games after his return. 23.3 ppg after returning to the starting lineup for the final 15 games of the season, including 41 points and 33 on the final 2 games of the season.

[eliteballer]

I was referring to Bird's individual play in the series. :oldlol: at Magic's injury in '81. He returned with more than a month left in the regular season and averaged 21.8 ppg in the 17 games after his return. 23.3 ppg after returning to the starting lineup for the final 15 games of the season, including 41 points and 33 on the final 2 games of the season.

If you actually knew anything you'd know Magic always thought he came back too early:rolleyes:

[ShaqAttack3234]

If you actually knew anything you'd know Magic always thought he came back too early:rolleyes:

What I do know is that he was cleared to play a week before he actually returned. Would you like me to provide the article? I also know that it didn't seem to affect his play at all in the regular season, then the playoffs come and his poor play is the primary reason the Lakers lost the mini-series vs Houston and didn't repeat as champions. Big difference with Bird's '85 situation when he had missed games in the playoffs and the commentators were listing various injuries he was playing through in the finals.

[Solid Snake]

I was born after all that but seems to me Magic was pretty much better in every way :confusedshrug:

I just don't see the argument for Bird. People saying stuff like "Bird was the better player" but there's absolutely nothing to support it.


Much better scorer, just as good of a passer.

[Rooster]

Now why would I change my mind when those numbers back up what I'm saying? Magic blows him away especially in the efficiency department.

Magic averaged 21.5 points 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl on 57% FG in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old rookie. Know what Bird was doing at that age? Playing against boys 2 years before Magic would beat him in the NCAA championship.

Magic won more, he BEAT AND OUTPLAYED PEAK BIRD MULTIPLE TIMES ON THE BIGGEST STAGE WHILE BEING 3 YEARS YOUNGER. He could play all 5 positions and was more versatile because of his ballhandling ability, and was BY FAR a bigger mismatch.

The West had PLENT of competition.

The Defending champion Sonics in 1980
Drexler's Blazers
Robinson/Nance/Johnson Suns cracking 50 wins every year.
Sampson/Hakeem Rockets
Blackman Mavs
Stockton/Malone Jazz
Gilmore/Gervin Spurs

Speaking of FG%. Lakers have the 3 best team FG percentage in the history of the game and not just because of Showtime fast break, Magic also know when to give the ball to everyone sweet spot. Magic 9 Finals appearance and 5 rings speaks for itself.

[Pointguard]

Magic easily had the better teammates plus they were playing better, and wasn't even the clear-cut man main, Kareem was for the most part.
Bird was the clearcut main man and leader, definitely played better overall D also, faced also better overall competition in the East.

Yea Magic won two Finals and two MVPs (one belonging to Kareem), but Bird still managed to win a title with a team that was terrible before him, adding Parish and McHale (who was still young and not playing much) in his 2nd year. Can't see how Magic is REALLY better, in any way. Plus in the regular season it's easily Bird and that means something also.
In the early years, the one time Boston won it all Maxwell won the FMVP and Maxwell wasn't that good of player. The other years, Bird was outplayed at his position by Doc and Marques Johnson when Boston got eliminated. Bird's teammates which weren't bad, had nothing to do with Bird's bad shooting in the playoffs. Magic's shooting percentage was always very good except one year.

Once Magic arrived he was the man in LA. Kareem was a great individual player that couldn't do much with his LA teams when the league wasn't that good. Magic was a great team player and leader that made them winners when the league was much better. Kareem was on Magic's team - it wasn't the other way around. Magic was the main man.



I won't go against that, but it was close and Worthy had that amazing decisive game 7, much close than Magic to Kareem in 1980. What Kareem did in 5 games in the 80 Finals (not to mention the rest of the playoffs and so on) was more impactful and better than what Magic did in 6. There wouldn't even be a game 6 if it wasn't for Kareem, and he would've returned in game 7 to finish them and continue the destruction. Plus Wilkes also had an amazing game 6 that goes overlooked.

Magic had already an uncanny ability to control pace and make players better. Kareem always capitalized on that. The problem of the 70's was that players played in their own world. Magic put the Laker team on the same page. When Kareem played with Dantly, Wilkes and Nixon all averaging over 17ppg, the year before Magic came, and averaging 77 points between them they weren't a contending team. The Magic ship was much better than what was there before... The winning attitude and everything. In 4 years Kareem didn't do anything for LA.



Are you gonna overlook the fact that Bird badly injured his hand in a bar fight during the 1985 playoffs, there's not much to say about it, still averaged 24/9/5 on 45/33/85. In 1984 he completely destroyed the Lakers with every teammate really underperforming, think it would be any different in 1985 if he was healthy? Still Kareem had to had one of GOAT Finals in 1985 for the Lakers to beat the Celtics.
If Bird had a history of dominating in the finals, I could go with this. But Bird only had one dominating championship run and had several series where his shot went astray. So we can't say he is guaranteed to be dominant again. If he gets into fights at bars, its part of his package. That's the way the ball bounces. If Magic kept himself healthy, I'm sure he has a better story to tell as well.


Bird's domination at the position not that long? Lmao gtfo, when he was healthy(er), 1980-1988, he was always all-nba 1st, 7 times top 2 in MVP, completely changed the Celtics to much better, playing in the goat era, playing in the goat era for Sf's, in the goat conference, plenty of times teammates underperforming, plenty of times playing against better teams on paper.
He was not dominant before 1984. He wasn't consistent in the playoffs at all and could be outplayed by others at his position in elimination series until then. He was definitely top tier but he wasn't dominant. Which is ok, three/four years isn't bad by any measure of the stick.

[ShaqAttack3234]

In the early years, the one time Boston won it all Maxwell won the FMVP and Maxwell wasn't that good of player.

He may have gotten the award, but I've always thought Bird was clearly the more valuable player in that series. His shot wasn't falling, but his impact was still greater than Maxwell's.


Once Magic arrived he was the man in LA. Kareem was a great individual player that couldn't do much with his LA teams when the league wasn't that good. Magic was a great team player and leader that made them winners when the league was much better. Kareem was on Magic's team - it wasn't the other way around. Magic was the main man.

Kareem was definitely the man in 1980, and I'd say through at least Magic's first 4 years. He was league MVP and for good reason, and the offense at that time revolved around Kareem in the post. Magic pushed them over the top(as well as some other nice additions) but that doesn't mean it was his team from the start.


Magic had already an uncanny ability to control pace and make players better. Kareem always capitalized on that. The problem of the 70's was that players played in their own world. Magic put the Laker team on the same page. When Kareem played with Dantly, Wilkes and Nixon all averaging over 17ppg, the year before Magic came, and averaging 77 points between them they weren't a contending team. The Magic ship was much better than what was there before... The winning attitude and everything. In 4 years Kareem didn't do anything for LA.

Kareem pretty much did as much as he could for LA. He carried them, but the team was flawed, especially in '77 when he dragged them as far as they could possibly go. Obviously when you add a player of Magic's caliber they're going to get better, but the 1980 Lakers would have gotten a hell of a lot worse if you just took Kareem off too so what does that mean? The '80 Lakers don't sniff a title without Kareem.


If Bird had a history of dominating in the finals, I could go with this. But Bird only had one dominating championship run and had several series where his shot went astray. So we can't say he is guaranteed to be dominant again. If he gets into fights at bars, its part of his package. That's the way the ball bounces. If Magic kept himself healthy, I'm sure he has a better story to tell as well.

I'd call Bird's '84 and '86 championships dominant.


He was not dominant before 1984. He wasn't consistent in the playoffs at all and could be outplayed by others at his position in elimination series until then. He was definitely top tier but he wasn't dominant. Which is ok, three/four years isn't bad by any measure of the stick.

I'd say Bird was pretty dominant even early on. He wasn't as good as '84-'88, but even during his first 4 years, he was leading his team to about 60 wins every year, had already won a title, was always one of the top MVP candidates and led that remarkable turnaround as a rookie.

I've always thought it took Magic longer to become dominant than it took Bird. Though that makes sense since Bird was 3 years older and the man on his team right away.

[BoutPractice]

From the games I've watched and the way their career unfolded, they're very close in terms of impact on the game, usually one of my first criteria when it comes to ranking players, so you have to take other aspects into account.

Magic has the better looking resume. Bird was a better scorer, arguably the more complete player, and was more highly regarded in his day.
Magic truly dominated when he was handling the ball. Bird couldn't handle like Magic but he could dominate without the ball on offense. It depends on what you value most.

Personally, if I were a GM, I'd probably build my team around Magic. I'm obsessed with comparative advantage, and a 6-9 PG whose body type is not a gimmick but a main component of his game gives you pretty much the ultimate comparative advantage on offense.

[K Xerxes]

People who don't think it was Kareem's team in the early 80s are seriously underestimating how good Kareem was back then. He was the consensus best player in the league in that time, particularly 1980, and the last 10 years, no question. While Magic's game 6 is constantly flaunted as being one of the greatest performances of all time - and deservedly so - Kareem was undoubtedly the best player in that team in the regular season and playoffs. He averaged 32-12-3-4 in the post season; Magic had 18-10-9. Kareem had 33-14-3-5 in the finals; Magic had 22-11-9. There's a valid argument that Kareem should have won finals MVP but his performance was obviously forgotten when he was injured for the closeout game and Magic dropped 42-15-7.

I wonder if the Showtime dynamic would have been looked at in a different light historically had Kareem won the finals MVP in 1980.

[diamenz]

whomever labels bird as era specific is one of those young cats who think basketball is all about pick & rolls, shooting threes 6 seconds int the clock, fancy ball handling and becoming over excited when lebron dunks. most of today's game is nothing but an athletic clusterfluck.

[ILLsmak]

They were both amazing, which is why they respected each other so much, but Larry... is better. Even Magic knows that.

-Smak

[PotOdds]

Nah, you can't go by Magic. Magic is a sweetheart. Doing the humble thing. Just got to look at their comparative play. Both of them excelled at their positions. Jordan is still GOAT. LeBron gonna be No. 2.


They were both amazing, which is why they respected each other so much, but Larry... is better. Even Magic knows that.
-Smak

[get these NETS]

It's clear that Magic was the better alltime player


Bird was a high volume scorer, all time clutch player who gave you a glimpse of great vision/passing every now and then

I can think of about 5 small forwards who were poor man's/bootleg larry birds..who gave you some of what larry brought to the table.....rick barry had the scoring and clutch shooting....sidney moncrief gave you the court awareness/vision and clutch playmaking, chris mullin gave you the scoring and the passing/court sense

small forward position is FULL of high scoring guys who either were clutch shooters or great playmakers....Bird combined all three elements..



Name another point guard comparable to Magic ...


I'll wait

[Pointguard]

He may have gotten the award, but I've always thought Bird was clearly the more valuable player in that series. His shot wasn't falling, but his impact was still greater than Maxwell's.

Hey homeslice, I couldn't find that thread again but I find it really funny we were in the same hood and both played the same instrument!

Max, was making clutch shots that year. The thing that makes it foggy was that Max was very timely with his defensive plays as well. Bird was missing key shots as well. I do think it was very close. Hard call because Bird does so many things.



Kareem was definitely the man in 1980, and I'd say through at least Magic's first 4 years. He was league MVP and for good reason, and the offense at that time revolved around Kareem in the post. Magic pushed them over the top(as well as some other nice additions) but that doesn't mean it was his team from the start.
The look and feel was different once Magic arrived. Kareem was still great for sure. While Kareem did beast for LA for four years prior, good teams never had a problem with them. LA would usually get beat 4 to 1 in playoff series while never getting too deep into the playoffs. Wilkes and Kareem both looked sharper and played in a more alert manner once Magic arrived. The LA team looked like Washington (beginning of this year) in the 1970's vs a Golden State team now, after Magic arrived. While Kareem was the better individual player, he didn't mean more to the team. Kareem himself was transformed and now had a bigger impact than he did in one of his best years three years prior. Magic knew how to make Kareem key in winning ways. It was not something you can really say Kareem knew how to do himself. Wilkes was the same.


Kareem pretty much did as much as he could for LA. He carried them, but the team was flawed, especially in '77 when he dragged them as far as they could possibly go. Obviously when you add a player of Magic's caliber they're going to get better, but the 1980 Lakers would have gotten a hell of a lot worse if you just took Kareem off too so what does that mean? The '80 Lakers don't sniff a title without Kareem.

That Philly team was far better than any team Kareem faced the previous four years. Their defense was on a whole different level than those teams.
So without Magic they don't sniff a title either. It was Magic's wild card play (you really couldn't prepare for Magic because his play affected everybody on the court and he was not playing in a traditional manner). Magic always had a winning way about himself.



I'd call Bird's '84 and '86 championships dominant.
Without question



I'd say Bird was pretty dominant even early on. He wasn't as good as '84-'88, but even during his first 4 years, he was leading his team to about 60 wins every year, had already won a title, was always one of the top MVP candidates and led that remarkable turnaround as a rookie.

I've always thought it took Magic longer to become dominant than it took Bird. Though that makes sense since Bird was 3 years older and the man on his team right away.
Yeah, Bird was built around. And Magic had to squeeze himself into the team as he was really not playing a position for a minute there. A few things were very definite from his arrival tho: every Laker could depend on Magic hitting them in their sweet spots, easy baskets came in droves, they controlled the tempo, they kept coming at you, they had a winning way about them, they would pick apart your weaknesses, they were among the best in the post game and the running game, Magic would adjust to all personnel changes on both sides, he could make something out of nothing, if you lost concentration for a moment you paid for it, they really played to win 81 games (1 game sacrificed to basketball Gods), positional play was mastered, and if you turned the ball over you were dead. And Magic could make split second decisions better than anybody. The team before Magic wasn't like that.

[Vertical-24]

All-time? Magic. He had both the impact and the accolades to back it up. He's the more decorated player and will probably be seen as higher on most GOAT lists due to this as well as longevity.

As far as individual all-around play...it's still pretty debatable. Bird was clearly the better shooter and rebounder, but the rest is pretty much up for grabs. I'm more of a Magic guy myself, but then again, i'm a Lakers fan. He's the greatest playmaker of all-time in my opinion, a brilliant leader/basketball mind, and probably the world's greatest team-player.

Personally, I don't mind if someone picks either one. One of the most subjective debates in all of basketball history.

[get these NETS]

Magic had a more successful career & has the edge in longevity, but I believe Bird was the better player when both were at the top of their game.

Magic was a better transition player, ball handler, & passer (Bird was a fantastic passer as well), but that is where the advantages end for Magic.

Bird was a better shooter, he was a better scorer, better post game, better rebounder, he is the best passing forward in history, and he was a better overall defender than Magic. Bird could simply beat you in more ways.

Don Nelson brought the term "point forward" into sports lexicon when he coached the Bucks

I think he night disagree...paul pressey would disagree..

and surely lebron james would disagree


Bird made some great passes, that are run over and over on highlight reels but that wasn't what he was asked to do night in and night out

[fandarko]

I was born after all that but seems to me Magic was pretty much better in every way :confusedshrug:

I just don't see the argument for Bird. People saying stuff like "Bird was the better player" but there's absolutely nothing to support it.

Passer: Magic was more flashy, but he wasn't substantially a better passer. But Magic by a margin.
Shooter: Bird, no contest.
Man leader: equal
Clutch:equal
Defense: Bird
Rebounding: Bird
Charisma/flashiness: Magic

Overall: equal. Bird was better until 1987 and Magic after.

Both would shit on everyone today, just like they did in their primes.

[LAZERUSS]

People who don't think it was Kareem's team in the early 80s are seriously underestimating how good Kareem was back then. He was the consensus best player in the league in that time, particularly 1980, and the last 10 years, no question. While Magic's game 6 is constantly flaunted as being one of the greatest performances of all time - and deservedly so - Kareem was undoubtedly the best player in that team in the regular season and playoffs. He averaged 32-12-3-4 in the post season; Magic had 18-10-9. Kareem had 33-14-3-5 in the finals; Magic had 22-11-9. There's a valid argument that Kareem should have won finals MVP but his performance was obviously forgotten when he was injured for the closeout game and Magic dropped 42-15-7.

I wonder if the Showtime dynamic would have been looked at in a different light historically had Kareem won the finals MVP in 1980.

While Kareem won the MVP in 79-80, he was arguably not even the best center in the league. Moses completely overwhelmed the NBA in 78-79, and while he slipped in the MVP voting in 79-80 (primarily because he had absolutely no help), his numbers were close to the previous season's. In fact, from the 78-79 season on, until Kareem retired after the 88-89 season, Moses had higher scoring and rebounding seasons...every year in those 11 seasons. And h2h in that 79-80 season, as always, he badly outscored Kareem. In their two h2h's, he outscored Kareem by margins of 32-24 and 29-15. And if this was just an isolated instance, I wouldn't have brought it up. The fact was, Moses was "the Kareem Killer." And from then beginning of the 78-79 season, thru the end of the 82-83 season, Moses was the most feared player in the league.

I won't post their h2h numbers now, but he badly outscored, and outrebounded Kareem, in their 40 h2h games from '78 on. And for those that question Mose's defense, he held Kareem to .462 shooting in the '80-81 playoffs, and routinely held his FG%'s down.

From the late 70's thru the mid-80's, Moses just murdered every center in the league. Someone challenged me on that a while back, stating that Robert Parish outplayed Moses. I completely shredded that argument. Parish took his brutal spankings just like every other center in the league in that period. In fact, he seldom even played a decent game against Moses...while Moses was routinely pouring in 30+ ppg games against parish, and just pounding him on the glass.

And it would get worse. From the early 80's on, Moses owned Kareem. It was only in Moses last couple of seasons, from about '86 on, that Kareem could play on his level. And in the post-season, it was even more one-sided. My god, Moses went 6-1 against Kareem in their post-season h2h's, and easily outscored him (with a couple of huge games...38 and 37 points), while just blasting Kareem on the glass (in fact, using basketball-reference, in the game's in which they recorded rebounds, Moses went 16-0 against Kareem.)


As for your argument on the '80 FMVP. Had Kareem played in the game six win, and even put up ordinary numbers, I could see giving him the award. However, he didn't play...and Magic stepped up bigtime (like he almost always did in the post-season.) The fact was, and everyone in the league knew it...Magic ould have scored considerably more in his career. His 42 point outburst was an example of that. (Incidently, you forgot to post Magic's FG% in that series...he shot .573..while Kareem was at .554.) And, LA proved that they could win a playoff game without a still very-good Kareem. They would not win a playoff game without Magic in his entire career.


As for the rest of the 80's...how about the '82 post-season? In fact, in the Finals, McAdoo pretty much equalled Kareem's numbers, and playing considerably less minutes. Magic had a dominating Finals, probably topped by only his overwhelming dominance in the '87 Finals.

True, Kareem bounced back from the dead in game two of the '85 Finals, and played brilliantly, and deservedly won the FMVP, but LA's true post-season MVP was Magic. And people forget, that from his second season, on, Magic was the equal of KAJ in rebounding, and in fact, outrebounded him in five of their Finals.


And Pointguard explained it as well as anyone. Kareem played in a relatively weak NBA, and on stacked teams in the late 70's, and the Lakers were a huge under-achiever. Magic took over team from day one, and the Lakers never looked back. In his 12 years in the NBA, their worst record was 54-28 (and Magic missed a ton of games that year.) LA averaged nearly 60 wins per season in that span, went to nine Finals, and won five titles.

And once again, Kareem was basically worthless in '88, and was easily replaceable in '87. And without Magic in the '89 Finals...swept. Hell, in Kareem's last season the Lakers went 57-25. He retired, and what transired next? The Lakers jumped to 63-19...which was their second best mark in the decade of the 80's. And then Magic took an injury-riddled, and over-the-hill "Showtime" team to another Finals a year later.

What happened after Magic retired? The Lakers fell to 43-39, and then topped that the next season with a 39-43 mark. That 43-39 record was about the same record he inherited as a rookie, and immediately led them to a 60-22 mark and a world title.

None of the above was coincidence...

[La Frescobaldi]

It's clear that Magic was the better alltime player


Bird was a high volume scorer, all time clutch player who gave you a glimpse of great vision/passing every now and then

I can think of about 5 small forwards who were poor man's/bootleg larry birds..who gave you some of what larry brought to the table.....rick barry had the scoring and clutch shooting....sidney moncrief gave you the court awareness/vision and clutch playmaking, chris mullin gave you the scoring and the passing/court sense

small forward position is FULL of high scoring guys who either were clutch shooters or great playmakers....Bird combined all three elements..



Name another point guard comparable to Magic ...


I'll wait
The thing is, you broke all these skills out and gave them to different guys. Bird had ALL of them.

There's lots of ways you could do that with Magic's skillset. Rondo has the assists and court vision. CP3 has the driving.
I mean what's the point of that?
None of those guys were as good as Bird, and none of these guys are as good as Magic.

It's not right to say one is "clearly" better than the other. There's a lot more to it than that.
But if that's really what you think you should make a better effort than to just splinter Larry Bird and dole out the pieces to a bunch of other guys.

[DatAsh]

The thing is, you broke all these skills out and gave them to different guys. Bird had ALL of them.

There's lots of ways you could do that with Magic's skillset. Rondo has the assists and court vision. CP3 has the driving.
I mean what's the point of that?
None of those guys were as good as Bird, and none of these guys are as good as Magic.

It's not right to say one is "clearly" better than the other. There's a lot more to it than that.
But if that's really what you think you should make a better effort than to just splinter Larry Bird and dole out the pieces to a bunch of other guys.

Rondo definitely doesn't have Magic's court vision. I agree with the rest of your post though.

[La Frescobaldi]

Rondo definitely doesn't have Magic's court vision. I agree with the rest of your post though.
Yeah I shoulda made a better effort lol

Pistol, then. Pete had plenty of court vision

[Magic 32]

This.

lol. So now peak > career is not the deciding factor?

Lebron fans are getting ahead of themselves.

[JtotheIzzo]

I'd have to go with Larry. Back in the 80s, he was always considered the better player of the two and was being called the GOAT back then before MJ. My All Time list goes MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic.


I am a bigger Larry fan, but Magic gets the edge.

[gengiskhan]

Celtics 33 for life nikkkaaaaas!!

suck on dat.

Lakers 32 is to die for toooooooooooooooooooooooo

[ThaRegul8r]

I wonder if the Showtime dynamic would have been looked at in a different light historically had Kareem won the finals MVP in 1980.

I don't see why it would. Kareem should have won it anyway, so I don't see why it would have been looked at in a different light. If Kareem was actually physically present, then he would have won it. But they didn't want to give it to a player who wasn't actually there to accept the award, and Magic was there and had the all-time great deciding game, so...

[get these NETS]

The thing is, you broke all these skills out and gave them to different guys. Bird had ALL of them.

There's lots of ways you could do that with Magic's skillset. Rondo has the assists and court vision. CP3 has the driving.
I mean what's the point of that?
None of those guys were as good as Bird, and none of these guys are as good as Magic.

It's not right to say one is "clearly" better than the other. There's a lot more to it than that.
But if that's really what you think you should make a better effort than to just splinter Larry Bird and dole out the pieces to a bunch of other guys.

rick barry had a stretch where he was about as good a player as bird

the year rb won nba title his numbers compare favorably to any peak larry bird year.....and he lead team to ring

larry was consistently great all around player, while rick was known more for high volume scoring...but look at his stats for 74-77

now , name a player who in any way was comparable to magic

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hey homeslice, I couldn't find that thread again but I find it really funny we were in the same hood and both played the same instrument!

Yeah, that is funny. I had forgotten you played guitar too, but now that you mention it, I think I remember you saying it before.


Max, was making clutch shots that year. The thing that makes it foggy was that Max was very timely with his defensive plays as well. Bird was missing key shots as well. I do think it was very close. Hard call because Bird does so many things.

It's been a while since I've seen the series so I'd like to re-watch it, but I remember Bird having a big closeout game including a 3 that was a real dagger. It's not hard to see why Maxwell got it because Bird didn't have a great series by his own standards while Maxwell did, but as you said, Bird did so many things.


The look and feel was different once Magic arrived. Kareem was still great for sure. While Kareem did beast for LA for four years prior, good teams never had a problem with them. LA would usually get beat 4 to 1 in playoff series while never getting too deep into the playoffs. Wilkes and Kareem both looked sharper and played in a more alert manner once Magic arrived. The LA team looked like Washington (beginning of this year) in the 1970's vs a Golden State team now, after Magic arrived. While Kareem was the better individual player, he didn't mean more to the team. Kareem himself was transformed and now had a bigger impact than he did in one of his best years three years prior. Magic knew how to make Kareem key in winning ways. It was not something you can really say Kareem knew how to do himself. Wilkes was the same.

I don't think Kareem's impact was ever greater than it was in 1977. The "bad team" thing may come off as an excuse used too frequently, but I think in this particular year, it's undeniable. He had a team compromised of role players and led them to the best record in the league, and part of the reason they did this was Kareem had a number of huge 4th quarters throughout the season, and you can see that despite having the best record, several teams had bigger point differentials.

But in those playoffs, Kareem lost some of the few good players he had, including Kermit Washington, the one guy who gave him some help inside with rebounding and physicality, as well as Lucius Allen who was really the only dangerous guard on the team. If you watch that Blazer series, you'll see Kareem going up against the frontline of Walton and Lucas pretty much by himself with Washington out, and you'll see the Lakers struggling to even bring the ball up and get into their offense with Allen out.

I also think Kareem's impact was as great in '74 when he carried Milwaukee to game 7 of the finals and won game 6 with the famous sky hook.

But I will agree that Magic added a different feel since Kareem was introverted while Magic was more outspoken. And that seemed to be beneficial to chemistry as well as the on the court impact a player of Magic's caliber has.


That Philly team was far better than any team Kareem faced the previous four years. Their defense was on a whole different level than those teams.
So without Magic they don't sniff a title either. It was Magic's wild card play (you really couldn't prepare for Magic because his play affected everybody on the court and he was not playing in a traditional manner). Magic always had a winning way about himself.

I'm not trying to diminish Magic's importance to the 1980 team, but Kareem himself did dominate the Sixers. Had an incredible game 5 that's unfortunately largely forgotten where he came back after spraining his ankle and had a huge 4th quarter to pull out a tight game and finish with 40/15 on 16/24 shooting, iirc and also closed out the defending champion Sonics with 38/11/6/7 in the WCF.


Yeah, Bird was built around. And Magic had to squeeze himself into the team as he was really not playing a position for a minute there. A few things were very definite from his arrival tho: every Laker could depend on Magic hitting them in their sweet spots, easy baskets came in droves, they controlled the tempo, they kept coming at you, they had a winning way about them, they would pick apart your weaknesses, they were among the best in the post game and the running game, Magic would adjust to all personnel changes on both sides, he could make something out of nothing, if you lost concentration for a moment you paid for it, they really played to win 81 games (1 game sacrificed to basketball Gods), positional play was mastered, and if you turned the ball over you were dead. And Magic could make split second decisions better than anybody. The team before Magic wasn't like that.

Yeah, when Magic came to the Lakers, he was sharing ball-handling responsibilities with Norm Nixon and they didn't have quite as much of the running identity as from '82 on, this was essentially the problem between Paul Westhead and Magic until Westhead was fired early in '81-'82.

But even from the start, you're right that they now had the amazing running game to complement Kareem's unmatched low post dominance. Once the Lakers did get out and run, teams couldn't handle Magic handling the ball at 6'8" and finishing or finding Wilkes on the wing, in addition to Norm Nixon using his quickness, or hitting his pull up 15 footer. But it was a complementary thing because what set them apart from many famous fastbreak teams is that they could still beat you in a half court game. Kareem could score pretty much whenever he wanted, but he'd also run give and goes with Magic and consistently find cutters, or Magic would have the ball on the perimeter and throw a bullet pass to Wilkes cutting backdoor.

While having Magic and the fastbreak prevented them from being a stagnant and predictable team who relied too heavily on Kareem. It was the formula they used for the entire decade, though it gradually changed as Kareem declined and Worthy and Magic posted up more, though they still looked to run before eventually becoming more of a half court team once Kareem retired and the offense ran through Magic in the post a lot during his last 2 years before he retired.

I do favor Kareem the first few years when he was a 25 ppg type player also blocking 3 shots per game and Magic was sharing ball-handling responsibilities, but once Nixon was gone and Magic also added a bit of outside shot while Kareem was declining defensively, I wouldn't argue it was more Magic's team as far as impact. Though Kareem remained their first scoring option and half court option until the '87 season.

Actually, that leads me to one of the things I respect the most about Magic, which is how he handled the dynamic with Kareem. He simply waited his turn until Riley came to him and asked him to take over more after the Lakers were upset by Houston in the '86 WCF. He was ready and obviously delivered with the '87 season, but was patient, listened to what his coach said and didn't risk alienating Kareem.

[willds09]

magic

[eliteballer]

Magic averaged 21.5 points 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl on 57% FG in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old rookie.

He was dominant from the moment he stepped into the league.

The fact that there was a white east coast media bias and Bird gets shown more on ESPN Classic doesn't change that.

[Round Mound]

Magic averaged 21.5 points 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl on 57% FG in the 1980 Finals as a 20 year old rookie.

He was dominant from the moment he stepped into the league.

The fact that there was a white east coast media bias and Bird gets shown more on ESPN Classic doesn't change that.

You Say Magic > Bird because You are a Laker Fan.

Bird Was Better Than Magic because he Actually Played Good Defense, While Also Being a Beast Scoring, Rebounding and Passing Wise.

[eliteballer]

You Say Magic > Bird because You are a Laker Fan.

Bird Was Better Than Magic because he Actually Played Good Defense, While Also Being a Beast Scoring, Rebounding and Passing Wise.

Only someone who never watched them play would call Bird a good defender....which you already admitted you HAVEN'T. Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed PEAK Bird repeatedly in the title round.

[Round Mound]

Only someone who never watched them play would call Bird a good defender....which you already admitted you HAVEN'T. Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed PEAK Bird repeatedly in the title round.

[B]I Saw Both Play At The End of Their Careers (Magic Was My Favorite Player When I Started Watching and Playing B-Ball BTW) Where So For Bird It Was a Broken Larry Bird Because of the Back Problems and Injuries. That Was NOT PRIME BIRD.

Bird

[Lakers Legend#32]

Be it college or pro, whenever Magic played Bird in a championship, Magic beat him 3-1.

Even Bird admitted Magic was the greatest he had ever seen.

[havoc33]

remember. a kobe'tard a full retard will always show his true colors at some point.

Kobe is the only one who is era specific.

I cannot see kobe outperforming Dominique or Clyde in '80s or '90s.

I love how people like you call out others and follow it up with your own ridiculous statement. Kobe not outperforming Dominique or Clyde? Really? You my dear sir, are the very definition of a troll.

As for the topic at hand, I'm leaning towards choosing Bird (in his prime he was unconscious), but I can agree that Magic had a somewhat better career.

[La Frescobaldi]

rick barry had a stretch where he was about as good a player as bird

the year rb won nba title his numbers compare favorably to any peak larry bird year.....and he lead team to ring

larry was consistently great all around player, while rick was known more for high volume scoring...but look at his stats for 74-77

now , name a player who in any way was comparable to magic
I see what you mean about Rick Barry. Yes indeed that man was ferocious.

Comparable to Magic? In an earlier era, Oscar Robertson; in a later, Jason Kidd leading the Nets in particular, but his whole career has been one enormous highlight film

[gengiskhan]

I love how people like you call out others and follow it up with your own ridiculous statement. Kobe not outperforming Dominique or Clyde? Really? You my dear sir, are the very definition of a troll.

I can back my statements of Kobe not out performing Dominique & Drexler.

Kobe may have better offensive skills set to score but there is something thats called Strength, Stamina & endurance

Drexler & Dominique were considerably stronger than Kobe in all 3 departments.

Drexler lacked kobe's post up offense, he makes it up on strength, quickness & endurance.

Kobe gets tired from 2nd quarter itself & when defense gets physical, I've seen him REST ON HIS KNEES from start of 2nd Quarter itself.

Many here think, a great player out performs another great player on SKILLS ALONE.

A laughable joke.

When you go deep into 4th, Stength, Stamina, endurance is more helpful in gutting it out.

Dominique had that. Drexler had that (Da man NEVER EVER rested on his Knees, upper extremities locked, bent forward) even in 1 min left in 4th quarter.

Unbelievable speciman of strength, stamina, conditioning & endurance!

[Jailblazers7]

Be it college or pro, whenever Magic played Bird in a championship, Magic beat him 3-1.

Even Bird admitted Magic was the greatest he had ever seen.

Magic has made similar quotes about Larry so that really doesn't mean anything.

I think the difference is so small that it could go either way. I'd probably change my answer depending on how I feel that day.

[Pointguard]

It's been a while since I've seen the series so I'd like to re-watch it, but I remember Bird having a big closeout game including a 3 that was a real dagger. It's not hard to see why Maxwell got it because Bird didn't have a great series by his own standards while Maxwell did, but as you said, Bird did so many things.
Somewhat similar to Pierce and Garnett if you ask me. Garnett affected the game in more ways but Pierce won FMVP by being in the right place at the right time and hitting clutch shots.


I'm not trying to diminish Magic's importance to the 1980 team, but Kareem himself did dominate the Sixers. Had an incredible game 5 that's unfortunately largely forgotten where he came back after spraining his ankle and had a huge 4th quarter to pull out a tight game and finish with 40/15 on 16/24 shooting, iirc and also closed out the defending champion Sonics with 38/11/6/7 in the WCF.

You brought up a good point about Kareem. Not only was he a prolific scorer, rebounder, defender, passer but he was also very clutch. My brother just told me that teams always try to beat them by the fourth quarter, because if the game got methodical, Kareem would win it.


Yeah, when Magic came to the Lakers, he was sharing ball-handling responsibilities with Norm Nixon and they didn't have quite as much of the running identity as from '82 on, this was essentially the problem between Paul Westhead and Magic until Westhead was fired early in '81-'82.
Magic's play was non-descript for like two years. Kind of like if you had Penny Hardaway on a Chris Paul team. Westhead couldn't commit to putting him at PG.


While having Magic and the fastbreak prevented them from being a stagnant and predictable team who relied too heavily on Kareem. It was the formula they used for the entire decade, though it gradually changed as Kareem declined and Worthy and Magic posted up more, though they still looked to run before eventually becoming more of a half court team once Kareem retired and the offense ran through Magic in the post a lot during his last 2 years before he retired.
You ever see the films of how they used Worthy on the quick post. Magic would actually try to set up Worthy before Kareem would come down. Almost like a fast break post up. Of course now, one out of every 4 teams has a post player.


Actually, that leads me to one of the things I respect the most about Magic, which is how he handled the dynamic with Kareem. He simply waited his turn until Riley came to him and asked him to take over more after the Lakers were upset by Houston in the '86 WCF. He was ready and obviously delivered with the '87 season, but was patient, listened to what his coach said and didn't risk alienating Kareem.
When you think about how high these guys are on the GOAT list and how greatly they co-existed. Sure things were said but you could tell how they fed off of each other. Maybe the greatest complimentary duo ever in terms of making a complete team.

[AlphaWolf24]

Actually, that leads me to one of the things I respect the most about Magic, which is how he handled the dynamic with Kareem. He simply waited his turn until Riley came to him and asked him to take over more after the Lakers were upset by Houston in the '86 WCF. He was ready and obviously delivered with the '87 season, but was patient, listened to what his coach said and didn't risk alienating Kareem.



- Magic did everything....and was more popular then Kareem....I don't think Magic viewed it as " taking his turn".....it was more about winning and doing what it took to win.

and they did win......alot!

- The Basketball landscape wasn't as....." I'm the man/leader " centered as it is today's game.

- Especially with the style that Magic/Bird played ( using thier skill to set up a teammate for a easy shot was just as valuable/exciting as getting a shot for themselves)


- and what I like about that era.....often in the eyes of the basketball world.....the better player was determined by who won in June....

not marginal stats differential or personal awards..( I.E. "Bird might have been MVP but Magic won the title" = Magic had a better season / was a better player)

- maybe it was because Bird and Magic had similar games and came into the league together and played on great teams ....( the only way to judge was by winning)


- .....and after the Jordan 90's era ( " The Man"...justifiying Jordan's playoff struggles and finally winning a title.....Most fans tried to use "the man" arguements to prop up MJ's 1 - 3 titles as greater acomplishments then Magics 5 titles and Birds 3 titles.....because they didn't win FMVP's in all of them)

The way the game was played changed...it was a totally different era and style of play...even compared to the early mid 90's.

- Looking back now.....Magic was the better player....he played at higher level for a longer period of time...he won more championships as a Main / superstar player....and IMO he could do more with the basketball in hand ( wich is a primary attribute in the post season)

funny how no one cared who was the man in the 80's....just beat the other guys team.




of course I know you watched alot of hoop back then.....just stating it for the guys who never watched Bird/Magics career....man I feel sorry for them....

best bball ever!

[bmd]

They were just different.

[StarJordan]

tough one but i was thinking
till 87 finals it is 1-1

and then they meet in the finale.

magic wins

[ProfessorMurder]

tough one but i was thinking
till 87 finals it is 1-1

and then they meet in the finale.

magic wins

Bird's back was already a problem during the 86 season.

[DatAsh]

I see what you mean about Rick Barry. Yes indeed that man was ferocious.

Comparable to Magic? In an earlier era, Oscar Robertson; in a later, Jason Kidd leading the Nets in particular, but his whole career has been one enormous highlight film

I think Oscar is actually a great comparison; can't say I agree with Jason Kidd though.