How can people say Lebron is better than Jordan when he only has one ring??

[keep-itreal]

Jordan has six rings

Lebron only has one.

I'm already hearing people saying Lebron is better than Jordan.

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[tikay0]

Did you really need to start another MJ vs. Lebron thread?

It's obvious by now that Lebron isn't shit without getting the red carpet treatment to the rim. :confusedshrug:

[Teanett]

because pippen>>>wade+bosh

[tikay0]

because pippen>>>wade+bosh

Nah son, nah. :facepalm

Lebron is Pippen on roids, whereas Wade is a homeless man on crack's version of MJ. Then you add Bosh into the mix, and it ain't even close.

[ripthekik]

-because he is the chosen one
-because he has choked in the finals and MJ has not
-because he has a ring in a shortened season and MJ does not

:pimp:

[uber]

Luc Longley > Mario Chalmers

:bowdown:

[Teanett]

Nah son, nah. :facepalm

Lebron is Pippen on roids, whereas Wade is a homeless man on crack's version of MJ. Then you add Bosh into the mix, and it ain't even close.

i'm just fukkin with you, you little fukker!
:D

[tikay0]

i'm just fukkin with you, you little fukker!
:D

My bad, douche monger. :cheers:

[leMVP]

Will be.

[red1]

even the biggest bronzy fans know deep down that bron can never be jordan

mj>bron>kobe

[BBallZen83]

Who the f*k in their right mind is saying lebron is better than jordan? I grew up on jordan and have followed lebron's career since he came to the league. Lebron won't surpass jordan ever. This is coming from a fan of lebron's game.

[chosen_one6]

Take note of the fact that Michael Jordan has already finished his career and LeBron still has at least 7 years to go.

[Mr. Incredible]

If they're saying it, they are trolling or so ignorant they actually believe themselves.

Any rational basketball will tell you he's not.

LeBron will look nice sitting next to him though when it's all said and done.

[tikay0]

Take note of the fact that Michael Jordan has already finished his career and LeBron still has at least 7 years to go.

Keep in mind that Jordan retired in a year that he would have undoubtedly gotten another ring, and his stats would've been even more spectacular. :facepalm

[tazb]

He currently isn't. But he still has a shot to surpass him. :confusedshrug:

[chosen_one6]

Keep in mind that Jordan retired in a year that he would have undoubtedly gotten another ring, and his stats would've been even more spectacular. :facepalm

And LeBron also won his first ring at the same age that Jordan won his first. Troll harder.

[Hittin_Shots]

If they're saying it, they are trolling or so ignorant they actually believe themselves.

Any rational basketball will tell you he's not.

LeBron will look nice sitting next to him though when it's all said and done.

Ive never heard a basketball speak.

[Haymaker]

Bron is a better athletic specimen than MJ, but he's not as dominant. MJ was a true leader, is undefeated in NBA finals and took his team to 6 titles with two three-peats. Bron is 1-2 in the finals and he's choked so many times, people started doubting his greatness. MJ's greatness was never in doubt.

[Ne 1]

He's no where close to Jordan as far as from a career stand point, he's currently Dir/KG level. MVP player with 1 ring.

[tazb]

Bron is a better athletic specimen than MJ, but he's not as dominant. MJ was a true leader, is undefeated in NBA finals and took his team to 6 titles with two three-peats. Bron is 1-2 in the finals and he's choked so many times, people started doubting his greatness. MJ's greatness was never in doubt.

And LeBron has never got swept in the first round or eliminated in the first round for that matter.

[red1]

Take note of the fact that Michael Jordan has already finished his career and LeBron still has at least 7 years to go.
It is already too late. It doesnt matter how many rings and mvps he wins, the 2011 choke is a blemish that will always put him at a disadvantage when compared to mj. MJ always stepped up when it mattered most, it is impossible to even imagine him playing such a mediocre series in his prime

[chosen_one6]

It is already too late. It doesnt matter how many rings and mvps he wins, the 2011 choke is a blemish that will always put him at a disadvantage when compared to mj. MJ always stepped up when it mattered most, it is impossible to even imagine him playing such a mediocre series in his prime

That's your opinion. I'm not saying LeBron will surpass Jordan. My post was directed towards the OP because comparing LeBron's career to someone's that is already over is ridiculous.

[tikay0]

And LeBron also won his first ring at the same age that Jordan won his first. Troll harder.

And that means anything why? It took Lebron an extra year to get that ring, and it was in a shortened season. Not to mention he JOINED a super team. That's as anti climatic as it gets. :facepalm

[chosen_one6]

And that means anything why? It took Lebron an extra year to get that ring, and it was in a shortened season. Not to mention he JOINED a super team. That's as anti climatic as it gets. :facepalm

Just like you mentioned Jordan retiring in his prime. It means nothing. You're such a dumbass :roll:

[tikay0]

That's your opinion. I'm not saying LeBron will surpass Jordan. My post was directed towards the OP because comparing LeBron's career to someone's that is already over is ridiculous.

The point is, Lebron could win 6 more rings, and it wouldn't matter. When you do a playoff by playoff comparison, it's not even close.

Lebron is 1-3 in the Finals. That shit doesn't go away child. It just doesn't. :confusedshrug:

Then you add to the fact that he'll always be linked to the "decision", and it's even worse for Lebron.

Face it. Your favorite player will never surpass my cities GOAT, and the NBA's GOAT, and I know it eats you up inside, knowing whatever Lebron does, he already fugged up his legacy. :roll:

[tikay0]

Just like you mentioned Jordan retiring in his prime. It means nothing. You're such a dumbass :roll:

:biggums:

Jordan retiring in his prime, and coming back makes him look like a badass.

Lebron shitting the bed in the Finals, and joining a super team in his prime makes him look like a............. :biggums:

[chosen_one6]

The point is, Lebron could win 6 more rings, and it wouldn't matter. When you do a playoff by playoff comparison, it's not even close.

Lebron is 1-3 in the Finals. That shit doesn't go away child. It just doesn't. :confusedshrug:

Then you add to the fact that he'll always be linked to the "decision", and it's even worse for Lebron.

Face it. Your favorite player will never surpass my cities GOAT, and the NBA's GOAT, and I know it eats you up inside, knowing whatever Lebron does, he already fugged up his legacy. :roll:

Apparently you fail at reading comprehension too. I never said LeBron would be equal to or pass Jordan. Proving, once again, you're a dumbass :roll:

[tikay0]

Apparently you fail at reading comprehension too. I never said LeBron would be equal to or pass Jordan. Proving, once again, you're a dumbass :roll:

Now that we got that out the way, at least you're not a mentally challenged child. :cheers:

[chosen_one6]

:biggums:

Jordan retiring in his prime, and coming back makes him look like a badass.

Lebron shitting the bed in the Finals, and joining a super team in his prime makes him look like a............. :biggums:

How did the Bulls do that year that Jordan retired? Get back to me when you find out. Jeezus you're such a troll.

http://i.imgur.com/Dx8NDVC.gif

[#number6ix#]

Does he have to be better than mj to be consider great: no
He's already consider top 10-15 at age 28 that's nothing to sneeze at. The fact that this is even a topic shows his greatness

[tikay0]

http://i.imgur.com/Dx8NDVC.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[FiveRings]

Lebron is easily better than Michael Jordan. Even Riley said so.

[sportjames23]

Will be.


LOL, this nikka here. :lol

[bigkingsfan]

Why would you penalize Lebron for losing in the finals when Jordan got eliminated earlier in the playoffs at the similar age.

[BlackVVaves]

It really doesn't have anything to do with rings though. That's part of why career wise he's not ranked as high, but in terms of basketball play, it's not about the rings.

[sportjames23]

And LeBron has never got swept in the first round or eliminated in the first round for that matter.

LOL, another troll.

MJ never missed the playoffs with Chicago, never lost in the Finals, let alone got swept out of the Finals, and never got outplayed in the Finals, especially by a someone on Jason Terry's level.

Try harder, son.

[tazb]

LOL, another troll.

MJ never missed the playoffs with Chicago, never lost in the Finals, let alone got swept out of the Finals, and never got outplayed in the Finals, especially by a someone on Jason Terry's level.

Try harder, son.

Getting to the Finals > Getting eliminated out of the first round, no?

[sportjames23]

Why would you penalize Lebron for losing in the finals when Jordan got eliminated earlier in the playoffs at the similar age.


He didn't just lose, he lost bad: got swept by a so-so Spurs team in his first Finals, then got outplayed by Jason Terry in his second.

That shit don't go aways.

At least when MJ's early Bulls teams lost, they lost to one of the greatest teams of all time in the Celtics and a damn good team in the Bucks.

[NumberSix]

The point is, Lebron could win 6 more rings, and it wouldn't matter. When you do a playoff by playoff comparison, it's not even close.

Lebron is 1-3 in the Finals. That shit doesn't go away child. It just doesn't. :confusedshrug:

Then you add to the fact that he'll always be linked to the "decision", and it's even worse for Lebron.

Face it. Your favorite player will never surpass my cities GOAT, and the NBA's GOAT, and I know it eats you up inside, knowing whatever Lebron does, he already fugged up his legacy. :roll:
Lol. If LeBron wins 6 rings its a wrap.

Yes, do a playoff by playoff comparison. Please. If they both have 6, please keep telling us how LeBron making the finals just doesn't go away in comparison to all of Jordan's first round exits.

:roll:

[sportjames23]

Getting to the Finals > Getting eliminated out of the first round, no?

Getting beat down by so-so teams or outplayed by scrubs <<<< losing to Birds Celtics.

[jzek]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8562521

[NumberSix]

Getting beat down by so-so teams or outplayed by scrubs <<<< losing to Birds Celtics.
Taking the worst team to ever appear in the finals > chucking the bulls out of series against bad 80s defences.

[chosen_wun]

Ive watched about 300+ games of Jordan's prime years on box set, and from what ive seen LeBron is not as good, Jordan had very few games where his presence wasnt felt.

However, it is not a knock on LeBron to be less of a player than Jordan. He's the closest wing player impact wise. I think its disrespectful that people compare Kobe to Jordan, its like a cheap imitation... If Allen Iverson was 6'6 he would be Kobe.

[alleykat]

who says that?

[bigkingsfan]

He didn't just lose, he lost bad: got swept by a so-so Spurs team in his first Finals, then got outplayed by Jason Terry in his second.

That shit don't go aways.

At least when MJ's early Bulls teams lost, they lost to one of the greatest teams of all time in the Celtics and a damn good team in the Bucks.

Getting swept in the finals is worse than in the first round in consecutive years. :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

[QUOTE=FiveRings]Lebron is easily better than Michael Jordan. Even Riley said so.

[Young X]

It's not just about rings, Jordan was just better than Lebron at playing basketball. 80's MJ > Lebron.

[pauk]

Who the hell said Lebron is better than Jordan? Im sure you could argue it in terms of individual players (ill still go with MJ) but anyways, i say it again, i hate comparing these two players... very different games/mindsets...

[NumberSix]

Who the hell said Lebron is better than Jordan?
Stan Van Gundy

[tikay0]

Why would you penalize Lebron for losing in the finals when Jordan got eliminated earlier in the playoffs at the similar age.

Check their resumes, and come back at me.

No one puts Klitschko's resume above Ali's right??? :pimp:

[tikay0]

Lol. If LeBron wins 6 rings its a wrap.

Yes, do a playoff by playoff comparison. Please. If they both have 6, please keep telling us how LeBron making the finals just doesn't go away in comparison to all of Jordan's first round exits.

:roll:

Like I said before. No shame in losing to Larry Bird's Celtics. Lebron is a beneficiary of a weak ass East.

Ali's resume > Klitschko's. :pimp:

[bigkingsfan]

Like I said before. No shame in losing to Larry Bird's Celtics. Lebron is a beneficiary of a weak ass East.

Ali's resume > Klitschko's. :pimp:
One player is retired. One is still 28, you do the math.

[NumberSix]

Like I said before. No shame in losing to Larry Bird's Celtics. Lebron is a beneficiary of a weak ass East.

Ali's resume > Klitschko's. :pimp:
Boxing isn't a team sport fcuk-wad

[tikay0]

Boxing isn't a team sport fcuk-wad

Ali > Klitschko. You don't get the comparison huh?

[Eldrunko247]

Lebron is not even better than Kobe yet smh.

[Smoke117]

Jordan won his first ring at 27...Lebron won his first ring at 27. I didn't know we were in the habit of comparing players who's careers are finished to those that are in the prime of their careers. Besides that, I've never actually heard anyone 'noteworthy' say Lebron is better than Jordan. I don't even like Jordan and I know he's the greatest player (well him and Kareem both have a case) because he's one of the biggest Grade A ****ing assholes to ever live. He did some shit on a basketball court and thinks he can treat everyone beneath him and like garbage. He's a terrible human being.

[tikay0]

Jordan won his first ring at 27...Lebron won his first ring. I didn't know we were in the habit of comparing players who's careers are finished to those that are in the prime of his career.

It took Lebron an extra year, and he had a stacked team going up against one of the more sub par Finals opponents in Finals history.

#EpicChokeJob. :lebroncry:

[longtime lurker]

Lol ISH logic is terrible. Jordan has more rings than Lebron, Jordan has more finals appearances than Lebron has rings, how the hell do you penalize Jordan for getting swept in the first round like it actually even matters?

Sure Jordan and Lebron won rings at the same age but Lebron won't win another ring because there aren't anymore top 5 superstars to team up with in the league

[pauk]

Stan Van Gundy

Well, excluding accolades and talking only about for example Lebrons actual individual allround combination of athleticism/talent/skill/size and the domination, productions and versatility that gives on both ends of the floor, i can see why the occasional guy would rather go with Lebron....

[red1]

Well, excluding accolades and talking only about for example Lebrons actual individual allround combination of athleticism/talent/skill/size and the domination, productions and versatility that gives on both ends of the floor, i can see why the occasional guy would rather go with Lebron....
pauk you are pure comedy :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's not just about rings, Jordan was just better than Lebron at playing basketball. 80's MJ > Lebron.
Early 90's MJ is best to ever lace them up.

[pauk]

pauk you are pure comedy :lol

No, you and the likes of you are a comedy.... you who grew up only knowing that he is GOAT and based your knowledge on his game watching only his highlights and best games, building this epic image of him being this infinity unmatched greatness, that never failed, that will never be matched........ you didnt see the shots he missed, you didnt see his shortcomings when it mattered, you didnt see his bad games, you didnt see him being just a man.... it was alot of it... just like for any other player in NBA history....

Jordan was great, but not as great as many of you want or are brainwashed to believe....

I grew up in the 90s watching Jordans every move and being all over his privates like everybody else, but i was one of those who unfortunately didnt end up having nostalgic perceptions that caused me to over puff Jordan or his era in contrast to Lebron or this era for example.... To be perfectly impartial I think Jordan was somewhat better in terms of individual actual basketball game, but Lebron is up there, MUCH closer than many of you seem to think, to the point where it shouldnt be demented to contemplate Lebron maybe being as good as Jordan was at least, but in a different way... i mean he is a very different type of breed of a player, all i know for very sure personally is that he (followed by Kobe) is easily the best individual perimeter player ive seen after Jordan retired.

[red1]

No, you and the likes of you are a comedy.... you who grew up only knowing that he is GOAT and based your knowledge on his game watching only his highlights and best games, building this epic image of him being this infinity unmatched greatness, that never failed, that will never be matched........ you didnt see the shots he missed, you didnt see his shortcomings when it mattered, you didnt see his bad games, you didnt see him being just a man.... it was alot of it... just like for any other player in NBA history....

Jordan was great, but not as great as many of you want or are brainwashed to believe....

I grew up in the 90s watching Jordans every move and being all over his privates like everybody else, but i was one of those who unfortunately didnt end up having nostalgic perceptions that caused me to over puff Jordan or his era in contrast to Lebron or this era for example.... To be perfectly impartial I think Jordan was somewhat better in terms of individual actual basketball game, but Lebron is up there, MUCH closer than many of you seem to think, to the point where it shouldnt be demented to contemplate Lebron maybe being as good as Jordan was at least, but in a different way... i mean he is a very different type of breed of a player, all i know for very sure personally is that he (followed by Kobe) is easily the best individual perimeter player ive seen after Jordan retired.
Pauk you are comedy because you went out of your way to type up a paragraph that would otherwise appear impartial if not for the fact they came from you, someone who is so firmly attached to lebron's balls that even god himself could not remove you if he wanted. Lebron is the closest perimeter player to jordan in my opinion as well but that doesnt change the fact that you are a retarded nut-hugger and it doesnt change the fact that you tried to slickly pass your opinion off as if it were unbiased :lol

[clutchinho]

No, you and the likes of you are a comedy.... you who grew up only knowing that he is GOAT and based your knowledge on his game watching only his highlights and best games, building this epic image of him being this infinity unmatched greatness, that never failed, that will never be matched........ you didnt see the shots he missed, you didnt see his shortcomings when it mattered, you didnt see his bad games, you didnt see him being just a man.... it was alot of it... just like for any other player in NBA history....

Jordan was great, but not as great as many of you want or are brainwashed to believe....

I grew up in the 90s watching Jordans every move and being all over his privates like everybody else, but i was one of those who unfortunately didnt end up having nostalgic perceptions that caused me to over puff Jordan or his era in contrast to Lebron or this era for example.... To be perfectly impartial I think Jordan was somewhat better in terms of individual actual basketball game, but Lebron is up there, MUCH closer than many of you seem to think, to the point where it shouldnt be demented to contemplate Lebron maybe being as good as Jordan was at least, but in a different way... i mean he is a very different type of breed of a player, all i know for very sure personally is that he (followed by Kobe) is easily the best individual perimeter player ive seen after Jordan retired.


:lol :lol :lol

6 rings > 0.5 r*ngs

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pauk you are comedy because you went out of your way to type up a paragraph that would otherwise appear impartial if not for the fact they came from you, someone who is so firmly attached to lebron's balls that even god himself could not remove you if he wanted. Lebron is the closest perimeter player to jordan in my opinion as well but that doesnt change the fact that you are a retarded nut-hugger and it doesnt change the fact that you tried to slickly pass your opinion off as if it were unbiased :lol
:oldlol:

[clutchinho]

Lol. If LeBron wins 6 rings its a wrap.

Yes, do a playoff by playoff comparison. Please. If they both have 6, please keep telling us how LeBron making the finals just doesn't go away in comparison to all of Jordan's first round exits.

:roll:

:facepalm talking about beating the 2007 Washington Wizards in a series like its worth something. Eastern conference :lol :lol

the 80s celtics would have made Lebron wanna pack his shit and play in Mexico

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ w/ pre superstar Scottie Pippen in 1989 and 1990 dragged his underdog squad to the Eastern Conference Finals and lost to the eventual world champions.

Once Pippen became tough enough, MJ and the Bulls proceeded to win 6 rings in 8 seasons, not winning in two years where MJ basically wasn't playing or was coming off extreme amounts of rust from retirement.

LeBron w/ non superstar Mo Williams in 2009 and 2010 lost in the Eastern Conference Finals and Eastern Conference SEMI Finals as the FAVORITES to underdog squads.

LeBron THEN proceeded to lose in the NBA Finals the very next season, on a team of heavy favorites, featuring the star studded cast of Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. The Heat lost, virtually alone by the fact LeBron played so below par.

How is this even a comparison at this point?

LeBron is the most similar impactful perimeter player since Jordan, Kobe / Wade are the most similar in terms of aesthetics to Jordan's game.

None of them are truly on his level, though. Context matters. And always will.

[Young X]

Early 90's MJ is best to ever lace them up.
Early 90's MJ is like Kobe/Wade combined, but better.

[gengiskhan]

Early 90's MJ is best to ever lace them up.

Dude.

as a NYK fan, i suffered the most.

That 1990-1993 MJ was just. :bowdown: :bowdown:

You'll never see a perfect mix of FREAK OF NATURE, athleticism & extreme clutchness in one player ever again.

21-30 yrs old MJ was not interested in beating a team.

He was in RUTHLESS KILLING BUSINESS.

[Mrofir]

Nah son, nah. :facepalm

Lebron is Pippen on roids, whereas Wade is a homeless man on crack's version of MJ. Then you add Bosh into the mix, and it ain't even close.


dead on.

[gengiskhan]

Early 90's MJ is like Kobe/Wade combined, but better.

More like Kobe + Wade + LBJ but still better.

[TonyMontana]

Chicago when Jordan left: 55 wins(57 wins with Jordan) and semifinals in the playoffs
Cleveland when LeBron left: 19 wins(61 wins with LeBron) and 1st overall pick in the draft

[SamuraiSWISH]

Early 90's MJ is like Kobe/Wade combined, but better.
Great minds think a like ... I have always said the same thing. Divide PEAK MJ into two players and you get Kobe / Wade.

Wade a poor man's late 80's Jordan.
Kobe a replica of late 90's Jordan on a younger body.

But early to mid 90's MJ? Bets player of all-time. Jesus in Nikes.

You couldn't guard him ... put a long arm, taller defender on him like they do Kobe to affect his smooth jumper? MJ BURNS you with foot speed attacking the rim and finishing with creativity and grace or powerful AUTHORITY (ask '91 Ewing)

Put a quicker, smaller guard in front of him that give Wade problems? MJ puts their little ass in the post all day. Mouse in the house and kills him with the post game, footwork, and intelligence (see Stark's career)

Zone up on MJ like you can do to take away LeBron's game? MJ murks you with the DEADLY mid range jumper, and best off the ball / slash and cut game which is beyond LeBron, Kobe, or Wade's skill set (ask '93 Phoenix)

You were dead the second #23 from '90 - '93 stepped on the court. Supreme skill, supreme athleticism, elite tenacity, unmatchable insinct / IQ ... killer instinct.

You were dead where you stood with that guy. All you had to do was be in fear, and prepare for your heart to be ripped out and shown to you before the final buzzer sounded.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Lebron will never surpass Jordan. As much as I want him to he won't. But Lebron can finish as the 2nd GOAT.

[ispin69]

Basketball is a TEAM SPORT. Get that in your head right now. Rings aren't the end all priority in judging a player's greatness. If it were, Bill Russell and Robert Horry would be better than Jordan, Kobe etc etc.

[The Choken One]

LeBron will never pass KAJ or MJ. He'll be around Magic & Bird when he retires, and placing them will just be preference.

[DMAVS41]

No, you and the likes of you are a comedy.... you who grew up only knowing that he is GOAT and based your knowledge on his game watching only his highlights and best games, building this epic image of him being this infinity unmatched greatness, that never failed, that will never be matched........ you didnt see the shots he missed, you didnt see his shortcomings when it mattered, you didnt see his bad games, you didnt see him being just a man.... it was alot of it... just like for any other player in NBA history....

Jordan was great, but not as great as many of you want or are brainwashed to believe....

I grew up in the 90s watching Jordans every move and being all over his privates like everybody else, but i was one of those who unfortunately didnt end up having nostalgic perceptions that caused me to over puff Jordan or his era in contrast to Lebron or this era for example.... To be perfectly impartial I think Jordan was somewhat better in terms of individual actual basketball game, but Lebron is up there, MUCH closer than many of you seem to think, to the point where it shouldnt be demented to contemplate Lebron maybe being as good as Jordan was at least, but in a different way... i mean he is a very different type of breed of a player, all i know for very sure personally is that he (followed by Kobe) is easily the best individual perimeter player ive seen after Jordan retired.

The part that is accurate above is that Lebron is playing the closest to MJ that anyone ever has in my opinion since I started watching the NBA in 75...certainly any perimeter player.

MJ is not some myth though. He's just as good as everyone remembers. He's clearly the best player that I have ever seen (didn't see Wilt or Russell)...clearly. Even in current Lebron...the best perimeter player since MJ at this current level...is behind him.

The problem though...is Lebron has been playing at this level for 2 years now only. And had many black marks on his career that MJ simply never had. MJ sustained his excellence at a level above current Lebron for many years.

If Lebron is able to do that....then yea...we can talk about comparing the down the road. But now? Nah...we have to make sure Lebron doesn't pull and epic choke job again...and we have to see him rattle off at least 3 or 4 titles with his stacked team and the current weak ass state of the league outside a healthy Thunder team.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The part that is accurate above is that Lebron is playing the closest to MJ that anyone ever has in my opinion since I started watching the NBA in 75...certainly any perimeter player.

MJ is not some myth though. He's just as good as everyone remembers. He's clearly the best player that I have ever seen (didn't see Wilt or Russell)...clearly. Even in current Lebron...the best perimeter player since MJ at this current level...is behind him.

The problem though...is Lebron has been playing at this level for 2 years now only. And had many black marks on his career that MJ simply never had. MJ sustained his excellence at a level above current Lebron for many years.

If Lebron is able to do that....then yea...we can talk about comparing the down the road. But now? Nah...we have to make sure Lebron doesn't pull and epic choke job again...and we have to see him rattle off at least 3 or 4 titles with his stacked team and the current weak ass state of the league outside a healthy Thunder team.
Hmmm ... respect.

[TheFan]

Because Lebron statistically just had the GOAT season... im a big Lebron hater... but its hard to argue against that.

[ILLsmak]

With his MVPs, he's already arguably top 10. I think it'd be hard for him to dethrone MJ unless they win like 4 in a row. Or 6 total + more MVPs.

As said, it doesn't mean he's not great. Dude is an amazing player. He is one of the few players who is "different." He's not like Magic or MJ at all. He's like "the modern superstar." He will, like MJ did (and the people before him did) define how future generations play. We will be seeing Bron clones.

Not to say there weren't do it all players before him, but they weren't nearly as good or successful.

-Smak

[sportjames23]

Chicago when Jordan left: 55 wins(57 wins with Jordan) and semifinals in the playoffs
Cleveland when LeBron left: 19 wins(61 wins with LeBron) and 1st overall pick in the draft


Chicago when Jordan left: experienced Pippen and Grant along with cast that won 3 straight championships, with an experienced Kukoc added.

Cleveland when Lebron (and Shaq and Ilgauskas left): bunch of scrubs leftover.


Yeah, totally the same situations. :rolleyes:

[sportjames23]

Basketball is a TEAM SPORT. Get that in your head right now. Rings aren't the end all priority in judging a player's greatness. If it were, Bill Russell and Robert Horry would be better than Jordan, Kobe etc etc.

No shit?

[jrong]

He's not. Jordan would have disemboweled him.

I envision LeBron's basketball brain as a computer. He's constantly receiving input and processing data and performing uncountable numbers of calculations to determine the right play. But, sometimes he reaches sensory overload or the data takes too much time to process, and that's when he appears passive and tentative.

Jordan's basketball brain is like the Predator. Singular objective. Seek and destroy.

[TonyMontana]

Chicago when Jordan left: experienced Pippen and Grant along with cast that won 3 straight championships, with an experienced Kukoc added.

Cleveland when Lebron (and Shaq and Ilgauskas left): bunch of scrubs leftover.


Yeah, totally the same situations. :rolleyes:

Which is the point, you dumb ape

Bulls had a team where you could slip in Pete Myers and they were still rolling. Cavs were just LeBron and scrubs. Once LeBron left that franchise was irrelevant, but when Jordan left Chicago still had an actual team.

Noone in NBA History is winning a ring with Mo Williams as their best teammate....Fact that people were picking Cleveland to win championships was a testament to LeBrons greatness.

[Gotterdammerung]

Usually I steer clear of troll-bait and homer-infested threads like these, but I felt obliged to drop this image, from last year's playoffs, before the finals:

http://the305.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/lebron-vs-jordan-at-age-27.jpg

[nnn123]

Jesus is it this difficult

One person was a clutch God

The other got worse as the lights shined brighter

Forget the rings, accolades, etc...who do you think is better?

[jrong]

Usually I steer clear of troll-bait and homer-infested threads like these, but I felt obliged to drop this image, from last year's playoffs, before the finals:

http://the305.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/lebron-vs-jordan-at-age-27.jpg

How did he play in those first two Finals?

That's the thing. LeBron doesn't just have to catch MJ in terms of success. He has to make up for his own failures.

Losing to the Spurs wasn't a failure. The way he played was though (36%/6 TOs). And, of course, everyone knows what happened in 2011. Plus, LeBron has another 36%/6 TO series against the Celtics in 09 and the infamous "quit" against the Celtics in 2010.

And Jordan was competing against Magic and Bird for MVPs in the 80s. Who is LeBron's competition? (And besides awards based on subjective voting should be accorded minimal weight in determining a player's greatness).

Thanks for playing though. Please come again.

[tikay0]

With his MVPs, he's already arguably top 10. I think it'd be hard for him to dethrone MJ unless they win like 4 in a row. Or 6 total + more MVPs.

As said, it doesn't mean he's not great. Dude is an amazing player. He is one of the few players who is "different." He's not like Magic or MJ at all. He's like "the modern superstar." He will, like MJ did (and the people before him did) define how future generations play. We will be seeing Bron clones.

Not to say there weren't do it all players before him, but they weren't nearly as good or successful.

-Smak

HUH???

You ever hear of Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, T-Mac?

Lebron's just more athletic, but not as coordinated as them.

[Gotterdammerung]

How did he play in those first two Finals?

That's the thing. LeBron doesn't just have to catch MJ in terms of success. He has to make up for his own failures.

How do you propose he do that? :confusedshrug:

Homers throw out silly assertions like these without knowing how to answer them.

That he failed in 4 games in 2007 and 6 games in 2011 is a ridiculously limited sample.

MVPs (82 games), trips to finals (carrying your teams through the gauntlet) say it all. :cheers:


Losing to the Spurs wasn't a failure. The way he played was though (36%/6 TOs).
Looks like you are talking from both sides of your mouth. Either the Cavaliers failed, or they didn't in a 0-4 sweep. LBJ was game-planned perfectly by the superior Spurs defense. :no:


And, of course, every one knows what happened in 2011. Plus, LeBron has another 36%/6 TO series against the Celtics in 09 and the infamous "quit" against the Celtics in 2010.
Great defenses. I'm sure I could pull the same cherry-picking like you did and pick series Jordan had trouble in, say, '96 finals or 92 east semis vs Knicks, but that's playing down to your homer levels. :oldlol:


And Jordan was competing against Magic and Bird for MVPs in the 80s. Who is LeBron's competition? (And besides awards based on subjective voting should be accorded minimal weight in determining a player's greatness).Thanks for playing though. Please try again.
:biggums:
Homer logic.

You can't blame anyone for playing in a certain time. That's beyond LBJ or MJ's control. Nobody is credited with the circumstances of their birth.

Thanks for trolling/homering/stan-ing. :rockon:

Please try harder. :oldlol:

[jrong]

How do you propose he do that? :confusedshrug:

He needs a minimum of seven titles. Even if he's given a pass for 07, '11 was inexcusable.


Homers throw out silly assertions like these without knowing how to answer them.

That he failed in 4 games in 2007 and 6 games in 2011 is a ridiculously limited sample.

MVPs (82 games), trips to finals (carrying your teams through the gauntlet) say it all. :cheers:

He absolutely did not carry the Heat to the Finals in 2011. It was a joint effort between him and Wade. They were both average in the 1st round, incredible against the Celtics (Wade 30/53%; James 28/47%). Then Wade was poor against the Bulls, except in crunch-time. Then James was abominable in the Finals, ESPECIALLY in crunch-time.

Wade was the Heat's best player in the 2011 playoffs. Check the stats. (In fact, Wade was the Heat's best player in 2011 period. He was the leading scorer in more games than James, even though James had the higher average. And he crushed him in per 36.)


Looks like you are talking from both sides of your mouth. Either the Cavaliers failed, or they didn't in a 0-4 sweep. LBJ was game-planned perfectly by the superior Spurs defense. :no:

There is no way that young Wade would've ever averaged 36% shooting in a series if he was leading those Cavs. We can debate whether he would've gotten them to the Finals, but he would've fought like a dog if he got there and lost in 6. The problem is young James had no jumpshot.


Great defenses. I'm sure I could pull the same cherry-picking like you did and pick series Jordan had trouble in, say, '96 finals or 92 east semis vs Knicks, but that's playing down to your homer levels. :oldlol:

Once again, if we're talking about 2010, I have to use the Wade example. Wade averaged 33/56% against the same Celtics defense that made James quit. And if you think having Mo as a #2 was bad, try having a sophomore Chalmers as your second. Wade wouldn't have won 60+ games with that Cavs squad, but he would've beaten the Celtics and had a great chance at delivering the title.


You can't blame anyone for playing in a certain time. That's beyond LBJ or MJ's control. Nobody is credited with the circumstances of their birth.

Magic and Bird are top 10 players all-time. They monopolized the MVPs until Jordan started winning rings. So I ask, who has top 10 potential that LeBron is beating out for the award? Maybe Durant.

Call me a homer, troll, stan, whatever, but I'm the wrong the person to take on in debate. I back up everything I say with facts and stats. My reputation proceeds me. You should become aware of it.

[red1]

jrong :applause:

[miles berg]

LeBron could win 10 titles and not be near as good as Jordan was.

[Gotterdammerung]

He needs a minimum of seven titles. Even if he's given a pass for 07, '11 was inexcusable.

Ah, that's in the future, and the future is unknown.

Only ISH stans and casual homers think in rings. :no:

Larry Bird was as great a player as Magic Johnson even though he only has 3 to Magic's 5.


He absolutely did not carry the Heat to the Finals in 2011. It was a joint effort between him and Wade. They were both average in the 1st round, incredible against the Celtics (Wade 30/53%; James 28/47%). Then Wade was poor except in crunchtime against the Bulls. Then James was abominable in the Finals, ESPECIALLY in crunchtime.

Wade was the Heat's best player in the 2011 playoffs. Check the stats. (In fact, Wade was the Heat's best player in 2011 period. He was the leading scorer in more games than James, even though James had the higher average. And he crushed him in per 36.)

False.

You exposed yourself as a "stat guru" who just crunch numbers and pay attention to how many shots are taken, made, regardless whether that player is a one dimensional stiff who only dunks the ball or whether that player is a triple threat wing who breaks down defenses by attracting defenders and opening up the court for his teammates. Stat addicts like you think a team full of Tyson Chandlers would be invincible because they shoot near 65% from the field and not allow the opposition to get off a good shot. Stat morons fail to realize the bigger picture that a team full of Chandlers would not be able to dribble the ball up court without fumbling it before getting it into a halfcourt set and create a point blank shot the actual Chandler gets.

There is no skill set area in which Wade was better than LBJ, who is significantly bigger and stronger than him. That first year LBJ led the heat in scoring, assists and steals - LBJ topped Wade in every meaningful statistical category except for blocks and turnovers.

Most important: The heat eliminated Chicago despite a weak performance from Wade, but lost to Mavericks when LBJ turned into a ghost.

If you have a shred of honesty, you'll drop the stat guru nonsense and look at the bigger picture.


There is no way that young Wade would've ever averaged 36% shooting in a series if he was leading those Cavs. We can debate whether he would've gotten them to the Finals, but he would've fought like a dog and lost in 6. The problem is young James had no jumpshot.

Neither does Wade. :confusedshrug:

Look at his game today - despite being 31 years old, he hasn't changed his game to something resembling Kobe Bryant or Jordan where his jumper is actually reliable, not streaky.


...snipped...
Magic and Bird are top 10 players all-time. They monopolized the MVPs until Jordan started winning rings. So I ask, who has top 10 potential that LeBron is beating out for the award? Maybe Durant.
Disingenuous. :sleeping

Magic retired in 1991. Bird was a shell of himself by then once Jordan won his second MVP.

This is why I smelled homer/stan allover your post.


Call me a homer, troll, stan, whatever, but I'm the wrong the person to take on in debate. I back up everything I say with facts and stats. My reputation proceeds me. You should become aware of it.
:oldlol:
I see nothing but specious reasoning 99% of posters here use, when they think they're being rational. Stats are misleading because they only quantify a qualitative, time based sport and exclude too much context. Context is required to give meaning to the raw numbers of statistics.

As a historian, I see past statistics, and at the context. Homers say 6 rings. As if that means anything when LBJ is 28. :facepalm

[Straight_Ballin]

Who the f*k in their right mind is saying lebron is better than jordan? I grew up on jordan and have followed lebron's career since he came to the league. Lebron won't surpass jordan ever. This is coming from a fan of lebron's game.

Real talk here. Bron will never surpass Jordan. Stop dreaming kids.

[Gotterdammerung]

The image I posted is why people think LBJ has the potential to be greater than Jordan.

But I distinguish between career and individual.

LBJ might in the end become greater than Jordan due to body of work, (more MVPs, more finals trips) but he might never reach that rarefied peak Jordan hit from 91-93 and from 96-98.

Like how Wilt Chamberlain is the better player than Bill Russell, but he did not have the greater career. :no:

[keep-itreal]

There is no skill set area in which Wade was better than LBJ, who is significantly bigger and stronger than him. That first year LBJ led the heat in scoring, assists and steals - LBJ topped Wade in every meaningful statistical category except for blocks and turnovers.



First you criticize him for just looking at stats implying it doesn't mean anything, and then you contradict yourself by saying Lebron's stats are better.

I watched the first season when Lebron was on the Heat and Wade was clearly the leader on that team. He was more aggressive and more relentless on offense as always and he was the Alpha on the team. Most people agreed Wade was the better player than Lebron that season.

Yes Wade did not play really well in the Bulls series, but to compare his poor performance to Lebron who simply disappeared in the 4th quarter like 3 or 4 games? Wade did not do that.

In fact Wade absolutely played his ass off trying to win that finals series against Dallas.

He was hitting clutch shots after clutch shots while the rest of the team wasn't really doing much. He was a flash of his 06' self.

[jrong]

You exposed yourself as a "stat guru" who just crunch numbers and pay attention to how many shots are taken, made, regardless whether that player is a one dimensional stiff who only dunks the ball or whether that player is a triple threat wing who breaks down defenses by attracting defenders and opening up the court for his teammates. Stat addicts like you think a team full of Tyson Chandlers would be invincible because they shoot near 65% from the field and not allow the opposition to get off a good shot. Stat morons fail to realize the bigger picture that a team full of Chandlers would not be able to dribble the ball up court without fumbling it before getting it into a halfcourt set and create a point blank shot the actual Chandler gets.

Wtf are you even talking about? Are you claiming that James and Wade have dissimilar skill sets and can't be compared?


There is no skill set area in which Wade was better than LBJ, who is significantly bigger and stronger than him. That first year LBJ led the heat in scoring, assists and steals - LBJ topped Wade in every meaningful statistical category except for blocks and turnovers.

Yep, no skill set in which Wade (circa 2011) was better. Except scoring/offensive arsenal, ball handling, penetration, offensive rebounding, shot blocking, and help defense.


Most important: The heat eliminated Chicago despite a weak performance from Wade, but lost to Mavericks when LBJ turned into a ghost.

Golly gee, do you think the fact that Wade stepped up in the clutch (5 straight pts in the 4th quarter to open a lead in G3; 6 pts/3 blks in G4 OT; 10 pts in G5 4th quarter, including 4 pt play that cut Bulls' lead to 3-- DO YOU THINK THAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHY THEY ELIMINATED CHICAGO?

AND DO YOU THINK PERHAPS THE FACT THAT LBJ TURNED INTO A GHOST (FAILING TO PROVIDE WADE THE SAME SUPPORT WADE HAD PROVIDED HIM)-- DO YOU THINK THAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHY THEY LOST TO DALLAS??


Neither does Wade. :confusedshrug:

Actually, young Wade had a beautiful jumper, before the 07 shoulder surgery-- especially in the playoffs. It's how he won in 06, moreso even than getting to the line. Watch the games.


Seriously, dude, there is a reason I don't lose arguments. I don't get into them unless I know the evidence is on my side, and I already know I'm going to win. Just stop already.

[Lebron23]

But LeBron has the same number of Finals MVP and more MVP's than Jordan at age 28.

LBJ might win a minimum of 5 Championships rings/at least 3-4 Finals MVP by the time his NBA Career his over.

[Straight_Ballin]

But LeBron has the same number of Finals MVP and more MVP's than Jordan at age 28.

LBJ might win a minimum of 5 Championships rings/at least 3-4 Finals MVP by the time his NBA Career his over.

Highly doubt he's winning 5. Dis nikka ain't no Jordan.

[diamenz]

i hate lebron and love mj, but it's not about rings.

it's about having watched both and digested both their games and knowing mike is on a completely higher level in all aspects.

[LBJ_MVP09]

People should stop going by number of titles to decide who's better all of the time. Sure, it can contribute to the argument but should not define it. LeBron is not better than Jordan because of a number of reasons, not simply because he has less rings.

[Gotterdammerung]

Wtf are you even talking about? Are you claiming that James and Wade have dissimilar skill sets and can't be compared?
I was destroying your reliance on statistics as if they were standards for objectivity. Idols take a long time to fall.

Next.


Yep, no skill set in which Wade (circa 2011) was better. Except scoring/offensive arsenal, ball handling, penetration, and help defense.
Heh. ;)

As of 2011, LBJ was the superior player. Besides physical gifts, he could defend more positions, and was a more creative and effective passer, and a superior shooter.


Golly gee, do you think the fact that Wade stepped up in the clutch (5 straight pts in the 4th quarter to open a lead in G3; 6 pts/3 blks in G4 OT; 10 pts in G5 4th quarter, including 4 pt play that cut Bulls' lead to 3-- DO YOU THINK THAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHY THEY ELIMINATED CHICAGO? AND DO YOU THINK PERHAPS THE FACT THAT LBJ TURNED INTO A GHOST (FAILING TO PROVIDE WADE THE SAME SUPPORT WADE HAD PROVIDED HIM)-- DO YOU THINK THAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHY THEY LOST TO DALLAS??

I don't know why you're still cherry-picking here with a play here and there, which does not mitigate from the obvious fact that Wade performed poorly in a series they won, and great in a series they lost. It takes away from your initial assertion. :confusedshrug:


Actually, young Wade had a beautiful jumper, before the 07 shoulder surgery-- especially in the playoffs. It's how he won in 06, moreso even than getting to the line. Watch the games.
Saw them. Been watching sine 1991.

He had a streaky jumper.

You forget that the Mavericks decided to double-team Shaq in the 2006 finals. :no:


Seriously, dude, there is a reason I don't lose arguments. I don't get into them unless I know the evidence is on my side, and I already know I'm going to win. Just stop already.

I know, you're losing.
:durantunimpressed:

I should go on and argue that nobody, especially homers and stans on this board, remembers how poorly Wade played in 2008 season as the Heat pulled off the worst collapse of a champion in the post-merger era - a championship team that wasn't dismantled. It's likely his performance in the 2008 Olympics helped erase some of the deserved criticisms or complaints about his erratic playing style and tendencies to injury.

The myth that LBJ was a sidekick in 2011 is utterly false by every sense. LBJ was no more a sidekick that Moses Malone was Dr. J's sidekick in '83 (Doctor J won the MVP in '81, while Moses won in 82 as a Rocket and 83 as a Sixer).

Granted, Wade's effort was more consistently higher than LBJ in the 2011 Finals, but LBJ already proved he was the better player throughout the season and over the first 3 rounds. Once LBJ performed under his standards, the Heat went belly-up, losing 3 games in a row.

Only homers and trolls like you look at the tiny sample size.

Next!

[HeatFanSince88]

Nice post Gotterdammerung your ****ing owning that idiot. :applause:

Wade actually had a NEGATIVE win shares per 48 in that Chicago series. When he was younger Kirk Hinrich was known as a "Wade stopper". That and he seemed to always play nervous in front of Chicago, his hometown.

[D.J.]

Jordan:


-6 titles(never lost in the Finals)
-6 Finals MVPs
-Never lost a series when his team had home court
-Won 2 titles without home court


Doesn't matter what LeBron does from this point on. And you certainly can remove the Jordan talks if the Heat don't win it. That would mean in 10 seasons, LeBron would have only 1 title, 1 Finals MVP, and lost 2/3 in the Finals. Jordan's 10th season was technically 1994-95 and at that point, he still had 3 titles and 3 Finals MVPs.

[ripthekik]

But LeBron has the same number of Finals MVP and more MVP's than Jordan at age 28.

LBJ might win a minimum of 5 Championships rings/at least 3-4 Finals MVP by the time his NBA Career his over.
and how much seasons did they each play at age 28?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[D.J.]

But LeBron has the same number of Finals MVP and more MVP's than Jordan at age 28.

LBJ might win a minimum of 5 Championships rings/at least 3-4 Finals MVP by the time his NBA Career his over.


MJ at age 28- 7 seasons
LeBron at age 28- 9 seasons

[Meticode]

Jordan has six rings

Lebron only has one.

I'm already hearing people saying Lebron is better than Jordan.

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
i don't agree nor disagree with LeBron being better (he probably isn't in my mind), but by your logic it's like saying Bill Russell is the greatest NBA player ever just because of the rings when that's not the case at all.

[boozehound]

Jordan has six rings

Lebron only has one.

I'm already hearing people saying Lebron is better than Jordan.

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:
thusly, how can people say that jordan is better than russell? It took jordan 7 years in the league to win a title and he only won 6 over 15 years (40%). Russel won 11 times in 13 years (85%). and 11 is greater than 6. Ipso facto.


Oh wait, not all circumstances are equal? Do tell

[boozehound]

i don't agree nor disagree with LeBron being better (he probably isn't in my mind), but by your logic it's like saying Bill Russell is the greatest NBA player ever just because of the rings when that's not the case at all.
it clearly is the case. see my prior post

[WayOfWade]

Perhaps people mean the player LeBron is now is better than any version of Jordan (not my opinion), and others may be misconstruing it as comparing careers. In which case it isn't even comparable, or even worth comparing at this point.

[HeatFanSince88]

MJ at age 28- 7 seasons
LeBron at age 28- 9 seasons

good point, LeBron was averaging 20+ PPG straight out of high school while Jordan couldn't average 14 PPG against college kids. :oldlol:

[NumberSix]

MJ at age 28- 7 seasons
LeBron at age 28- 9 seasons
Yeah, so not only did LeBron achieve more at the same age, but he was also able to play 2 more entire NBA seasons.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[D.J.]

good point, LeBron was averaging 20+ PPG straight out of high school while Jordan couldn't average 14 PPG against college kids. :oldlol:


He averaged 20 a game at the same age.

[NuggetsFan]

Steve Buscemi agrees.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHhaEhuCYAAp9QS.jpg:large

[jrong]

I don't know why you're still cherry-picking here with a play here and there, which does not mitigate from the obvious fact that Wade performed poorly in a series they won, and great in a series they lost. It takes away from your initial assertion. :confusedshrug:

This is the most backwards logic. So because Wade sucked except in the 4th qtrs of the Bulls series, and they won, and LeBron sucked for all 4 qtrs of the Mavs series, and they lost-- somehow that is a more positive commentary on James than Wade and reflects better on him?

I'll dispense with this tedium by posing two questions:

1. Would the Heat have beaten the Bulls without Wade at least stepping up at the end of games? (No.)

2. Would the Heat have beaten the Mavs if James had at least stepped up at the end of games? (Yes.)


Saw them. Been watching sine 1991.

He had a streaky jumper.

You forget that the Mavericks decided to double-team Shaq in the 2006 finals. :no:

Their defense was more focused on Shaq initially. After Wade took over the series, they shifted in Game 4, but it was too late by then. Wade was locked in.

And Shaq had the lowest +/- on the team at -36 (not to mention averaging 13.7 pts and being outscored by Walker) . While +/- can lead to some wonky results in a single game, over the couse of six game series, it does reflect the trend that is indicative of what is actually happening on the court.

Incidntally, Zo was far and away the Heat's most effective center in that series. His +/- was even higher than Wade's. Shaq actually spent a lot of time on the bench in 4th quarters because of Hack-a-Shaq fears.


I should go on and argue that nobody, especially homers and stans on this board, remembers how poorly Wade played in 2008 season as the Heat pulled off the worst collapse of a champion in the post-merger era - a championship team that wasn't dismantled. It's likely his performance in the 2008 Olympics helped erase some of the deserved criticisms or complaints about his erratic playing style and tendencies to injury.

Or, you know, it was because most rational people concluded that a season in which he played in need of two surgeries should't be counted against him-- the only year he ever missed the playoffs-- especially when he missed the first eight games, and Shaq "led" the Heat to an 0-8 hole in his absence, before quitting on the team entirely and eventually forcing his way out.


The myth that LBJ was a sidekick in 2011 is utterly false by every sense. LBJ was no more a sidekick that Moses Malone was Dr. J's sidekick in '83 (Doctor J won the MVP in '81, while Moses won in 82 as a Rocket and 83 as a Sixer).

I've never heard any serious person call LBJ a sidekick in 2011. But, Wade sure as hell wasn't one either.


Granted, Wade's effort was more consistently higher than LBJ in the 2011 Finals, but LBJ already proved he was the better player throughout the season and over the first 3 rounds. Once LBJ performed under his standards, the Heat went belly-up, losing 3 games in a row.

Wrong again. LeBron was marginally better in Sixers series 24 ppg vs 22 ppg; neither shot great. Wade was better vs. the Celtics (30/53% vs. 28/47%). LeBron was much better vs. the Bulls. And Wade was MUCH better in the Finals.

In the season, Wade's stats were nearly equal to James (27/7/7 vs. 26/6/4), he outscored him in more games (Wade only averaged 21 in November due to, yes, injury, hence why James topped him on averages for the year), and per 36, Wade blew him away.

Moreover, the Heat substitution pattern favored James-- he got 3 minutes at the end of the 1st and 3rd as the only big 3 member on court. Wade came back in, but with Bosh, to start the 2nd and 4th. Those end of quarter stints were typically stat-stufing fests for James.


Next!

Sigh. Everyone following this thread can see that I'm kicking your ass up and down and all the way through it. I write for a living. You never had a chance. So, try to formulate a response or give up, whatever. I'm gonna take the win and go to bed.

But, good job, good effort!

[BlackVVaves]

Once again, it's not about rings or accolades. We aren't comparing careers, we are comparing players.

Lebron is good to great at a vast amount of things, like Jordan was. However, peak Jordan was dominant at the two basic pillars of the game - offense and defense.

I said it in another thread, but while Lebron is a very versatile and above average defender, he's not the lock-down, dominant defender that Jordan was....while he puts up 30, 5, and 6 on 50%.

That's what was impressive to me. You never see a perimeter player able to affect both sides of the ball like that. Bigs, yeah, but that's due to the nature of their role. But for a perimeter player to drop 30 on a team, and then be so physical and cat-quick that you almost have to avoid passing the ball on that side of the court or its going to result in a steal or turnover...

KD dropped 30 points per game on 55% FG shooting and 39% 3P shooting against the Heat in the Finals...playing the same position as Lebron, and considered his biggest rival at the position. He averaged 28 points per game on 50% shooting and 39% 3P shooting for that season.

Clyde Drexler, in comparison, dropped 25 points per game on 40% FG shooting and 15% 3P shooting against the Bulls in the '92 Finals...playing the same position as Jordan, and considered his biggest rival at the position. He averaged 25 points per game on 48% FG shooting and 34% 3P shooting for that season.

While true that both Battier and Pippen defended both players throughout their series, the point is to illustrate the levels of impact Bron and Jordan shared defensively against their rivals.

For me, when Bron shows he can truly dominate the game from a defensive perspective, while still dominating on the offensive end as he has been doing through scoring and facilitating, then he will enter the realm of MJ and Kareem as GOAT candidates.

[tazb]

MJ at age 28- 7 seasons
LeBron at age 28- 9 seasons

People still use this excuse? :lol They both won the championship in their 7th try in the playoffs. Plus, do you really believe Jordan would be winning championships in his first two years in the league at 18 and 19 years old?:roll:

[Ancient Legend]

LeBron might equal him one day, when all is said done. But it is doubtful he surpasses him as goat unless he keeps up his insane stats til he is at least 35 year old and keeps winning chips. Most likely he ends up #2.

[D.J.]

People still use this excuse? :lol They both won the championship in their 7th try in the playoffs. Plus, do you really believe Jordan would be winning championships in his first two years in the league at 18 and 19 years old?:roll:


Comparing age is an excuse, especially when one player at the same age has played in 2 extra seasons. In 9 seasons, Jordan already had 3 titles and 3 Finals MVPs.

LeBron homers can't stand that he has no case on MJ.

[jrong]

Nice post Gotterdammerung your ****ing owning that idiot. :applause:

Wade actually had a NEGATIVE win shares per 48 in that Chicago series. When he was younger Kirk Hinrich was known as a "Wade stopper". That and he seemed to always play nervous in front of Chicago, his hometown.

Hmm, "HeatFanSince88", join date: April 2013 and bashing Wade to praise James....

Yeah, there's an incongruity between your screen name and your post content....

But, I refer you again to Wade's end-of-game play in Games 3, 4, and 5. In game 2, he simply played well, scoring 24 pts.

And I wouldn't go around calling people "idiots" whose intellect dwarves your own, ok there HeatFanSinceJuly8,2010?

(And I realize you may have to look up the word "incongruity." There's plenty of good dictionary sites on the Internet if you don't own anything that can be considered a book.)

[HeatFanSince88]

Incidntally, Zo was far and away the Heat's most effective center in that series. His +/- was even higher than Wade's. Shaq actually spent a lot of time on the bench in 4th quarters because of Hack-a-Shaq fears.

One thing Shaq did that goes unnoticed is he put the Mavs in foul trouble constantly. This is one of the reasons Wade got so many free throws. Shaq wasn't that effective defensively in that series, but he was still a huge body that required you to foul him when he got deep position. If Shaq isn't playing and drawing all those fouls on Dallas early in the quarters Wade doesn't get to the free throw line on nonshooting fouls.


Wrong again. LeBron was marginally better in Sixers series 24 ppg vs 22 ppg; neither shot great. Wade was better vs. the Celtics (30/53% vs. 28/47%). LeBron was much better vs. the Bulls. And Wade was MUCH better in the Finals.

Why does Wades "MUCH better" get capitalized in the Finals, but LeBrons doesn't vs the Bulls.

LBJ vs CHI: 25.8 PPG/7.8 RPG/6.4 APG 45/39/86 shooting splits
Wade vs CHI: 18.8 PPG/6.4 RPG/2.2 APG 40/20/83 shooting splits

LBJ vs Dal: 17.8 PPG/7.2 RPG/6.8 APG 48/32/60 shooting splits
Wade vs DAL: 26.5 PPG/7.0 RPG/5.2 APG 54/30/69 shooting splits

You can easily argue that Wades ECF was worse than LeBrons Finals. LeBron ****ed up because he was too generous of a teammate. He still thought of Miami was Wades team so he wanted him to be the primary threat so that he could win Finals MVP. That didn't work since the Heat cant maximize their production when the teams best player isn't maximizing his talents and being utilized to the fullest. Spo and LeBron made sure to change that the next year which was the difference.



Sigh. Everyone following this thread can see that I'm kicking your ass up and down and all the way through it. I write for a living. You never had a chance. So, try to formulate a response or give up, whatever. I'm gonna take the win and go to bed.

I dont even know why people write this kind of shit. That guy owned you in the thread and your obviously insecure/mad. I enjoyed further embarassing your ignorant assessment of the topic.

[HeatFanSince88]

For me, when Bron shows he can truly dominate the game from a defensive perspective, while still dominating on the offensive end as he has been doing through scoring and facilitating, then he will enter the realm of MJ and Kareem as GOAT candidates.

LeBron is better than Jordan from an offensive standpoint. He is just as good of a scorer, and heres the main difference.

He makes his teammates better.

LeBron has that Larry/Magic gene in him that lets him elevate the play of teammates. Jordan/Kobe dont do that. LeBron gets everyone easy looks CONSTANTLY. If you make a good cut/are open for a shot LBJ is sure to find you.

And even though LeBron isn't as good a 1 on 1 stopper as Jordan, he is a better help defender which is more important in the grand scheme of things. 1 on 1 is only more important for your ego on the playground. In a team game though, its more important to be in the right place and when you combine LeBrons basketball intelect with his athleticm you get perfection.

http://deadspin.com/lebron-james-is-a-better-defender-than-the-computerized-456410614

Read this article. LeBron is so good at help defense that he is actually better than a perfect virtual version of an ideal NBA defender.

[plowking]

jrong, you've become a truly biased and one sided poster since Lebron joined the Heat. Its blatantly obvious you're just a player fan of Wade (which I know you have stated) and its hard to take your opinions on anything Lebron related, who you clearly dislike very much.

You're requirements and expectations of Lebron to have any chance of overtaking Jordan are so circumstantial that it'd be impossible for Jordan to play now from the start of his career and do it the same way.

[BlackVVaves]

LeBron is better than Jordan from an offensive standpoint. He is just as good of a scorer, and heres the main difference.

He makes his teammates better.

LeBron has that Larry/Magic gene in him that lets him elevate the play of teammates. Jordan/Kobe dont do that. LeBron gets everyone easy looks CONSTANTLY. If you make a good cut/are open for a shot LBJ is sure to find you.

And even though LeBron isn't as good a 1 on 1 stopper as Jordan, he is a better help defender which is more important in the grand scheme of things. 1 on 1 is only more important for your ego on the playground. In a team game though, its more important to be in the right place and when you combine LeBrons basketball intelect with his athleticm you get perfection.

http://deadspin.com/lebron-james-is-a-better-defender-than-the-computerized-456410614

Read this article. LeBron is so good at help defense that he is actually better than a perfect virtual version of an ideal NBA defender.

Lebron is better offensively than Jordan because he is more of a facilitator? Ohh, so John Stockton is better offensively than Russell Westbrook or Steph Curry, right?

Being a better help defender is more important than being a better man defender? Being able to lock down your man is only valuable on the playground? Did you ever watch Michael Jordan play defense, let alone basketball?

Holy shit :roll:

[jrong]

You can easily argue that Wades ECF was worse than LeBrons Finals.

Lmao, yes, if you are just looking at box scores and didn't watch the games and you think coming through when your team needs you to come through for them is inferior to not coming through when they need you to come through for them.


Spo and LeBron made sure to change that the next year which was the difference.

Hmm, HeatFanSince88 doesn't even know the team history from a year ago. Wade was responsible for the change. He's the one told James to take over, and then he or they informed Spo of the arrangement.


I dont even know why people write this kind of shit. That guy owned you in the thread and your obviously insecure/mad. I enjoyed further embarassing your ignorant assessment of the topic.

Yes, I was owned when I backed up every point I made with documented numerical and narrative evidence. Whatever you say, HeatFanSinceTheDecision.

[keep-itreal]

Lebron is better offensively than Jordan because he is more of a facilitator? Ohh, so John Stockton is better offensively than Russell Westbrook, right?

Being a better help defender is more important than being a DOMINANT man defender? Being able to lock down your man is only valuable on the playground? Did you ever watch Michael Jordan play defense, let alone basketball?

Holy shit :roll:

He's probably just 15 years old. He never watched Jordan played. heat fan since 1988 my ****ing ass. He wasn't even born that time

[HeatFanSince88]

Lebron is better offensively than Jordan because he is more of a facilitator? Ohh, so John Stockton is better offensively than Russell Westbrook, right?

Being a better help defender is more important than being a DOMINANT man defender? Being able to lock down your man is only valuable on the playground? Did you ever watch Michael Jordan play defense, let alone basketball?

Holy shit :roll:

Lol what a ****ing idiot. Fails to address any facts and post garbage.

LeBron is better offensively than Jordan because on top of being a facilitator he is just as good of a scorer. Imagine giving a player Jordans ability to score, and then on top of that giving him the passing of Magic/Larry. Hello LeBron James.

Locking down your man is nice, but in this age of basketball with zone defenses, constant picks/screens help defense is what is more important.

How often do you see a player go completely one on one with someone? The ball handler always has a pick/screen for him in the NBA. When an opposing player penetrates a defense, it is a team responsibility.

This is why teams like the Heat/Bulls/Celtics are great defensively. They know how to help and have a great defensive system in place.

I swear its like people dont even watch the NBA, they just come on here to post garbage. ****ing stans.


Lmao, yes, if you are just looking at box scores and didn't watch the games and you think coming through when your team needs you to come through for them is inferior to not coming through when they need you to come through for them.



Hmm, HeatFanSince88 doesn't even know the team history from a year ago. Wade was responsible for the change. He's the one told James to take over, and then he or they informed Spo of the arrangement.



Yes, I was owned when I backed up every point I made with documented numerical and narrative evidence. Whatever you say, HeatFanSinceTheDecision.

Looks like this kid couldn't even respond to my points. Just personal attacks. :oldlol:

Ill chalk this one up as a win....Owned little boy

[Rose'sACL]

Lebron-Haters vs Lebron-stans. Both trolling each other in this thread.
No one other than trolls compare lebron to jordan. May be if lebron keeps playing like this for another 4-5 years and wins at least 5 rings and 5 finals mvp, he would have a chance but you guys are so stupid to compare them right now.

[BlackVVaves]

Lol what a ****ing idiot. Fails to address any facts and post garbage.

LeBron is better offensively than Jordan because on top of being a facilitator he is just as good of a scorer. Imagine giving a player Jordans ability to score, and then on top of that giving him the passing of Magic/Larry. Hello LeBron James.

Locking down your man is nice, but in this age of basketball with zone defenses, constant picks/screens help defense is what is more important.

How often do you see a player go completely one on one with someone? The ball handler always has a pick/screen for him in the NBA. When an opposing player penetrates a defense, it is a team responsibility.

This is why teams like the Heat/Bulls/Celtics are great defensively. They know how to help and have a great defensive system in place.

I swear its like people dont even watch the NBA, they just come on here to post garbage. ****ing stans.



Looks like this kid couldn't even respond to my points. Just personal attacks. :oldlol:

Ill chalk this one up as a win....Owned little boy

:roll:

Lebron is as good of a scorer?????

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Ah man. You're good for entertainment, I'll give you that.

[DMAVS41]

He needs a minimum of seven titles. Even if he's given a pass for 07, '11 was inexcusable.



He absolutely did not carry the Heat to the Finals in 2011. It was a joint effort between him and Wade. They were both average in the 1st round, incredible against the Celtics (Wade 30/53%; James 28/47%). Then Wade was poor against the Bulls, except in crunch-time. Then James was abominable in the Finals, ESPECIALLY in crunch-time.

Wade was the Heat's best player in the 2011 playoffs. Check the stats. (In fact, Wade was the Heat's best player in 2011 period. He was the leading scorer in more games than James, even though James had the higher average. And he crushed him in per 36.)



There is no way that young Wade would've ever averaged 36% shooting in a series if he was leading those Cavs. We can debate whether he would've gotten them to the Finals, but he would've fought like a dog if he got there and lost in 6. The problem is young James had no jumpshot.



Once again, if we're talking about 2010, I have to use the Wade example. Wade averaged 33/56% against the same Celtics defense that made James quit. And if you think having Mo as a #2 was bad, try having a sophomore Chalmers as your second. Wade wouldn't have won 60+ games with that Cavs squad, but he would've beaten the Celtics and had a great chance at delivering the title.



Magic and Bird are top 10 players all-time. They monopolized the MVPs until Jordan started winning rings. So I ask, who has top 10 potential that LeBron is beating out for the award? Maybe Durant.

Call me a homer, troll, stan, whatever, but I'm the wrong the person to take on in debate. I back up everything I say with facts and stats. My reputation proceeds me. You should become aware of it.

The only thing I'd say to this...great post by the way...is that Durant absolutely hast top 10 potential and serves as a great rival and challenge to Lebron...especially since they both play on loaded teams, are the two best players in the league clearly, and play the same position.

Beating out Durant for MVP this year and last year is very impressive. What seems to get lost in all of this hatred for Lebron is that he turned one of the finest offensive seasons of all time into an afterthought. Durant didn't even get 1 first place vote and he put up 28/8/5 on 51/42/91 splits while leading his team to 60 wins. It speaks to how great Lebron truly is right now that there wasn't a bit of doubt that Lebron was the best player in the regular season this year. That is amazing...and very impressive historically.

I think you might undervalue Durant a little...a healthy Thunder team changes everything. Winning the title this year for the Heat is far less impressive if they do win because of the Westbrook injury...it's a very very very very weak field after them.

Hopefully we get to see a Magic / Bird type rivalry in the Finals over the next few years. Really sucks about Westbrook going down...this year would have been great...

[DMAVS41]

One thing Shaq did that goes unnoticed is he put the Mavs in foul trouble constantly. This is one of the reasons Wade got so many free throws. Shaq wasn't that effective defensively in that series, but he was still a huge body that required you to foul him when he got deep position. If Shaq isn't playing and drawing all those fouls on Dallas early in the quarters Wade doesn't get to the free throw line on nonshooting fouls.


Why does Wades "MUCH better" get capitalized in the Finals, but LeBrons doesn't vs the Bulls.

LBJ vs CHI: 25.8 PPG/7.8 RPG/6.4 APG 45/39/86 shooting splits
Wade vs CHI: 18.8 PPG/6.4 RPG/2.2 APG 40/20/83 shooting splits

LBJ vs Dal: 17.8 PPG/7.2 RPG/6.8 APG 48/32/60 shooting splits
Wade vs DAL: 26.5 PPG/7.0 RPG/5.2 APG 54/30/69 shooting splits

You can easily argue that Wades ECF was worse than LeBrons Finals. LeBron ****ed up because he was too generous of a teammate. He still thought of Miami was Wades team so he wanted him to be the primary threat so that he could win Finals MVP. That didn't work since the Heat cant maximize their production when the teams best player isn't maximizing his talents and being utilized to the fullest. Spo and LeBron made sure to change that the next year which was the difference.




I dont even know why people write this kind of shit. That guy owned you in the thread and your obviously insecure/mad. I enjoyed further embarassing your ignorant assessment of the topic.


To the bold...uhhh no, no you can't.

It has already been pointed out all the offensive differences in crunch time, but lets talk about the defensive differences.

Wade was still a best defensively against the Bulls and he also stepped up on that end at the end of games as well as his great clutch play.

Lebron was not only much worse in the finals from an offensive / clutch play sense, but his defense was nowhere to be found. He was getting lost on rotations and getting torched by Terry and even letting Marion take him 1 on 1 at times.

It was the worst superstar performance in the finals I have ever seen...even trumping Kobe's shitfest in 04.

And, to compare it to Wade's play in a 5 game series in which the Heat won is an absolute joke. If the Bulls series had been more in doubt and the Heat didn't win in 5...you would have seen Wade step up and do something to prevent his team from losing even more than you saw him produce late in all those tight games.

Lebron has turned out to be the clear better player both at his peak and overall for their careers now, but in 11...Wade was better in the playoffs overall and it was Lebron that cost him what would now be his 3rd ring and 2 FMVP.

It is a shame that Wade will now never get the respect he deserves historically for his first 10 years in the league. He could be sitting at 4 titles, 2 fmvps, and career averages in the regular season and playoffs of about 24/6/6 on great efficiency over a decade. That is top 15 of all time greatness right there.

Instead, Lebron choked his ****ing ass of more than any player I can remember...while getting a ton of help from his supporting cast...it's a shame. And to compare that to Wade in the ECF is a ****ing joke.

[diamenz]

you're off of your square, heatfansince88 (guess you were born a heat fan). lebron's offensive game is very one dimensional and doesn't have even close to half of the scoring arsenal michael did. lebronbullies his way to the basket - mj used every fundamental in the book to create an opening. but back to your statement - bron makes his teammates better because he looks to pass. he looks to pass because he doesn't have many moves and isn't creative. mj looks to score.

you'll be surprised when i say this, but imo mj was also a better decision maker and passer. AT LEAST the former. have you seen mj pass out of doubles and knife passes through while being towered by two big men under the basket? btw his assists and passes are almost always to an open man UNDER THE BASKET. not some half open battier waiting for a flucking 3 pointer.

jordan was the definition of fundamentally sound - lebron is a mess when you watch him on the court.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

you're a fool for saying what you did. lebron is a great player, but he's a disgrace to superstars past and present.

[K Xerxes]

Sigh. Everyone following this thread can see that I'm kicking your ass up and down and all the way through it. I write for a living. You never had a chance. So, try to formulate a response or give up, whatever. I'm gonna take the win and go to bed.

But, good job, good effort!

It's a shame, you'd actually be a good debater if you weren't so pretentious.

I sincerely hope you don't carry this haughty aura when you 'write for a living'. It's irritating as hell and stifles debate.

[K Xerxes]

Once again, it's not about rings or accolades. We aren't comparing careers, we are comparing players.

Lebron is good to great at a vast amount of things, like Jordan was. However, peak Jordan was dominant at the two basic pillars of the game - offense and defense.

I said it in another thread, but while Lebron is a very versatile and above average defender, he's not the lock-down, dominant defender that Jordan was....while he puts up 30, 5, and 6 on 50%.

That's what was impressive to me. You never see a perimeter player able to affect both sides of the ball like that. Bigs, yeah, but that's due to the nature of their role. But for a perimeter player to drop 30 on a team, and then be so physical and cat-quick that you almost have to avoid passing the ball on that side of the court or its going to result in a steal or turnover...

KD dropped 30 points per game on 55% FG shooting and 39% 3P shooting against the Heat in the Finals...playing the same position as Lebron, and considered his biggest rival at the position. He averaged 28 points per game on 50% shooting and 39% 3P shooting for that season.

Clyde Drexler, in comparison, dropped 25 points per game on 40% FG shooting and 15% 3P shooting against the Bulls in the '92 Finals...playing the same position as Jordan, and considered his biggest rival at the position. He averaged 25 points per game on 48% FG shooting and 34% 3P shooting for that season.

While true that both Battier and Pippen defended both players throughout their series, the point is to illustrate the levels of impact Bron and Jordan shared defensively against their rivals.

For me, when Bron shows he can truly dominate the game from a defensive perspective, while still dominating on the offensive end as he has been doing through scoring and facilitating, then he will enter the realm of MJ and Kareem as GOAT candidates.

I strongly disagree with this. LeBron is arguably the most versatile defender we've ever seen and a terrific help defender. His man-to-man defense is overrated, no doubt, but that doesn't mean he's not great at that too. Besides, Miami's defensive philosophy lends little to man-to-man defense; it is mainly about timing rotations and aggressive help defense, which LeBron fits in perfectly.

The biggest impediment to LeBron's defensive game is his mindset. He coasts a lot because of the offensive load he carries. But he is a superb defender when he puts him mind to it, which is mainly in the fourth quarter of games against the opposing teams best player. For example, in the finals, Battier guarded Durant a lot of the time and torched him, but LeBron took over in the fourth quarter. And, from memory, in one of the games (game 3 or 4), he took Durant out of the fourth quarter where he shot something like 1-5 when LeBron was on him. Durant dropped 30 on 55%, yes, but I'm fairly sure that declined precipitously when he was guarded by LeBron.

Hell, even his chase down block reputation precedes him. Do you remember when Belinelli blew that dunk in game 3? You think that didn't have to do with LeBron hounding him down?

To your point about MJ, he was a spectacular defender, yes. A better man to man defender than LeBron and incredibly dominant. But he had Scottie on his team for the championship years.

Here's why LeBron wasn't on Durant 48 minutes every game: it is simply too taxing to guard one of the best offensive players in the game and churn out consistent offensive production. It happened to Michael in 1991. If you recall, he guarded Magic in game 1, and was still brilliant offensively, but was tired. I think I remember him taking time out in the 3rd quarter because it was so taxing. That's why Scottie switched on Magic later on in the series. Now, Durant is probably a harder matchup for LeBron because he's so long and such a great shooter.

When it got to 96-98, MJ was no longer the defender he was in the 80's and early 90s. He was still pretty good, but Pippen and Rodman were the primary defenders now. And, thoughout his championship years, Pippen took the heavy assignments so MJ could concentrate offensively, which is fair. Pippen was considered a better perimeter defender in any case (the GOAT in fact).

Here's what LeBron has the chance of doing that MJ didn't: be the best scorer, facilitator, rebounder and defender in his team in the championship years. Battier or others may take the opposing best player for 3 quarters, but when it's time (or when the player gets hot), we know who's guarding that player.

Disclaimer: it's very difficult to quantify defense so a lot of this is subjective. I do think LeBron is overrated in defense for the most part but spectacular when he needs to be.

[La Frescobaldi]

you're off of your square, heatfansince88 (guess you were born a heat fan). lebron's offensive game is very one dimensional and doesn't have even close to half of the scoring arsenal michael did. lebronbullies his way to the basket - mj used every fundamental in the book to create an opening. but back to your statement - bron makes his teammates better because he looks to pass. he looks to pass because he doesn't have many moves and isn't creative. mj looks to score.

you'll be surprised when i say this, but imo mj was also a better decision maker and passer. AT LEAST the former. have you seen mj pass out of doubles and knife passes through while being towered by two big men under the basket? btw his assists and passes are almost always to an open man UNDER THE BASKET. not some half open battier waiting for a flucking 3 pointer.

jordan was the definition of fundamentally sound - lebron is a mess when you watch him on the court.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

you're a fool for saying what you did. lebron is a great player, but he's a disgrace to superstars past and present.

I really do think that if a player is known for flopping, like Wade, James, Fisher, and so forth..... they should be banned from the Hall of Fame.

I think James will be a top 5 all time NBA player but he really should be barred from the Hall.

[hitmanyr2k]

you're off of your square, heatfansince88 (guess you were born a heat fan). lebron's offensive game is very one dimensional and doesn't have even close to half of the scoring arsenal michael did. lebronbullies his way to the basket - mj used every fundamental in the book to create an opening. but back to your statement - bron makes his teammates better because he looks to pass. he looks to pass because he doesn't have many moves and isn't creative. mj looks to score.

you'll be surprised when i say this, but imo mj was also a better decision maker and passer. AT LEAST the former. have you seen mj pass out of doubles and knife passes through while being towered by two big men under the basket? btw his assists and passes are almost always to an open man UNDER THE BASKET. not some half open battier waiting for a flucking 3 pointer.

jordan was the definition of fundamentally sound - lebron is a mess when you watch him on the court.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

you're a fool for saying what you did. lebron is a great player, but he's a disgrace to superstars past and present.

It's nice to see someone knows the difference between skill and fundamentals instead of just reading a stat sheet. People who say Lebron James is just as good a scorer as Jordan should be slapped...HARD. Lebron James even in his prime is still a limited offensive player. He simply plays to his strengths (fast break points, drives to the rim, occasional three pointer, facilitating) and covers his weaknesses (post play, footwork, midrange game/shooting off the dribble) very well. And I agree he looks to pass because he KNOWS he's a limited offensive player. I've been saying for the last couple of years that coaches who choose to double Lebron on the low block are fools. Unless he's able to catch the ball near the rim and go right up with the shot Lebron wants to pass the ball 90% of the time because he's limited in the post and he knows it. Once that initial move is cut off he's dead in the water. So when coaches send a double team they're letting him off the hook by giving him the opportunity to pass which is what he wanted all along.

And the flopping is just :facepalm but that's the kind of era the NBA is in these days. Soft rules, flopping, weak time for big men, etc. I can almost tolerate flopping from lesser players who have no advantage but when I see NBA stars with all the advantages in the world constantly flopping it sickens me. Any player who wants to be mentioned among the all-time greats shouldn't have to resort to blatantly flopping and flailing for a cheap whistle. Save that shit for the Derek Fishers of the league.

[sekachu]

thusly, how can people say that jordan is better than russell? It took jordan 7 years in the league to win a title and he only won 6 over 15 years (40%). Russel won 11 times in 13 years (85%). and 11 is greater than 6. Ipso facto.


Oh wait, not all circumstances are equal? Do tell



He basically won 6 over 13 years during bulls time if you exclude wizard day. 11 years if you exclude 86 MJ injuried and 94 when he retired.

[ripthekik]

you're off of your square, heatfansince88 (guess you were born a heat fan). lebron's offensive game is very one dimensional and doesn't have even close to half of the scoring arsenal michael did. lebronbullies his way to the basket - mj used every fundamental in the book to create an opening. but back to your statement - bron makes his teammates better because he looks to pass. he looks to pass because he doesn't have many moves and isn't creative. mj looks to score.

you'll be surprised when i say this, but imo mj was also a better decision maker and passer. AT LEAST the former. have you seen mj pass out of doubles and knife passes through while being towered by two big men under the basket? btw his assists and passes are almost always to an open man UNDER THE BASKET. not some half open battier waiting for a flucking 3 pointer.

jordan was the definition of fundamentally sound - lebron is a mess when you watch him on the court.

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

you're a fool for saying what you did. lebron is a great player, but he's a disgrace to superstars past and present.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Segatti]

LeBron is better than Jordan from an offensive standpoint. He is just as good of a scorer, and heres the main difference.

He makes his teammates better.

LeBron has that Larry/Magic gene in him that lets him elevate the play of teammates. Jordan/Kobe dont do that. LeBron gets everyone easy looks CONSTANTLY. If you make a good cut/are open for a shot LBJ is sure to find you.

And even though LeBron isn't as good a 1 on 1 stopper as Jordan, he is a better help defender which is more important in the grand scheme of things. 1 on 1 is only more important for your ego on the playground. In a team game though, its more important to be in the right place and when you combine LeBrons basketball intelect with his athleticm you get perfection.

http://deadspin.com/lebron-james-is-a-better-defender-than-the-computerized-456410614

Read this article. LeBron is so good at help defense that he is actually better than a perfect virtual version of an ideal NBA defender.


"He is just as good of a scorer"

http://ebengregory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mj-laughing.gif

http://ebengregory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mj-laughing.gif

http://ebengregory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mj-laughing.gif

http://ebengregory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mj-laughing.gif

http://ebengregory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mj-laughing.gif

http://ebengregory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mj-laughing.gif

[AussieG]

Lebron is a great player, but he definately gives his haters lots of ammo. :lol :lol :lol

[AussieG]

http://i.imgur.com/EFd7GNg.gif

[PickernRoller]

Only Letisk queers say he's better than Jordan. That basically means nobody says he's better than Jordan. I'll leave it at that.

[chips93]

Only Letisk queers say he's better than Jordan. That basically means nobody says he's better than Jordan. I'll leave it at that.

:biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

http://i.imgur.com/EFd7GNg.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[lakeshow1]

Who the f*k in their right mind is saying lebron is better than jordan? I grew up on jordan and have followed lebron's career since he came to the league. Lebron won't surpass jordan ever. This is coming from a fan of lebron's game.

90% here are not yet 20 years old and haven't a clue what Prime Jordan looked like (or even Kobe, for that matter).

That is the problem with this forum and it will not change.

[chosen_wun]

90% here are not yet 20 years old and haven't a clue what Prime Jordan looked like (or even Kobe, for that matter).

That is the problem with this forum and it will not change.
Im 22 and i've seen Kobe's whole career, well from 99' onwards.

I've only seen Wizards Jordan live tho.

[lakeshow1]

Im 22 and i've seen Kobe's whole career, well from 99' onwards.

I've only seen Wizards Jordan live tho.

That means from 8 years old on... I saw Jordan from that time too but don't have any real memory of him until his second 3-peat.

I don't know when the age of reason begins with basketball, but it can't be much sooner than 15 or 16 years old.

[chosen_wun]

Yeah rational understanding and reasoning probably around 14-16, but you can retain vivid information from much earlier on and then apply to your current sense of reasoning.

Like I know the Kobe I saw in 2002 is much different athetically and physically than the current Kobe and the two versions of him or not interchangable. He was better before.

[tmacattack33]

How can anyone blindly use team accomplishments to judge who was a better individual player?

:confusedshrug:

[lakeshow1]

Like I know the Kobe I saw in 2002 is much different athetically and physically than the current Kobe and the two versions of him or not interchangable. He was better before.

Agreed on that. :cheers:

As far as the OP's post, it's way too early to put Lebron in that category. But it's also unfair to say he can never be there because his career is not done.

I despised Jordan growing up, but acknowledge as a huge Kobe fan that Kobe can't be put on Jordan's level either. Jordan was special. Most unique athlete I've ever watched.

[Bandito]

Who the f*k in their right mind is saying lebron is better than jordan? I grew up on jordan and have followed lebron's career since he came to the league. Lebron won't surpass jordan ever. This is coming from a fan of lebron's game.
Every Lebrick fan:facepalm