Democrats, do you believe Mexicans should be treated like humans?

[OldSkoolball#52]

Now, hear me out. I only ask this because typically it is Democrats who attempt to block comprehensive immigration reform. They want open borders, and as many immigrants to come here undocumented and do as they wish as possible. To his credit, the President has agreed to put reform on the table, and to the dismay and predictable discredit of many of the losers in his party, they're unhappy about it.

So when you talk to Democrats about illegal immigration, they will say the following: (Well, first of all, they will call you racist because Mexico is a race. But then they will say the following):

"Mexicans come here and do the jobs Americans don't want to do. It also provides important cheap labor for the economy. Without Mexican workers, agriculture would be more expensive, as well as the products and services in various other industries. Americans benefit from illegal immigrants!!!!!!"

Ok. So let's take that at face value. Fair enough. Now let's talk about lowering the minimum wage in America, in order to increase jobs, boost supply, and ultimately lower prices and increase investment.

"NAHHH UHHHH!!!!! You have to raise minimum wage!!!! Its not fair that somebody whos 35 and works at burger king can't support his family for 8 dollars an hour!!!! no fair!!!! down with wall street, jerk!!!! you can't lower minimum wage its not fair!!!!! How do you expect a guy who only gets 8 dollars an hour to afford his cigarettes and satelite TV and still be able to have health insurance. Minimum wage isnt even at a humane amount now, you cant lower itttttt!!!!! arghrhghrhghhhggggggrrrrrrr!!!!"


I see. So, basically, 8 dollars an hour is a barely humane wage that everyone should be entitled to, at minimum, in order to provide basic support for their families. Except for Mexicans, right? Mexicans deserve less. Because Democrats argue that we need immigrants here to work long hours with no benefits for less than minimum wage. But if, in a different conversation, you bring up the American minimum wage (and dont bring up immigrant labor, lest they realize they're being hypocrites) and how reducing minimum wage could stimulate business, they cry about how asinine that idea is and how people deserve a decent wage and its just filthy corporate greed that keeps minimum wage low.

So, when you think about it, Democrats basically see Mexicans as slaves. They want them here working the jobs nobody else wants, and for well below minimum wage. Yet they cry out for minimum wage being something every American deserves at the very least. Usually they're trying to get minimum wage raised, because they think they're taking care of a bunch of people out there who are just struggling to get by. But their argument for illegal labor is how willing those people are to work for a wage well below the poverty line.

So Democrats essentially view Americans as deserving a basic, civil pay rate simply for existing, simply for being a person with a job. It's a fundamental truth to them that they deserve an arbitrary "minimum" pay rate simply for agreeing to work. But Mexicans? Thank god we have them here to do all this work for these rates that are beneath the dignity and survivability of what Americans deserve.


I've just always found these two positions deliciously hypocritical. Can any of the Democrats here explain to me why they see Mexicans as less than human? I personally don't. But I'm not a staunch supporter of raising the minimum wage every few... minutes.

[Kblaze8855]

Mexicans around my way drive Navigators and new F-150s because there are several adults who work and pool their money till they can branch out. They are doing better than black people from what I see. And I respect it.

Third of this country was theirs before we moved the line and just looking at the numbers...they will be roughly equal to whites in my lifetime.

This will be their country in 50 years. And im fine with it.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Mexicans around my way drive Navigators and new F-150s because there are several adults who work and pool their money till they can branch out. They are doing better than black people from what I see. And I respect it.

Third of this country was theirs before we moved the line and just looking at the numbers...they will be roughly equal to whites in my lifetime.

This will be their country in 50 years. And im fine with it.


Excellent story, brother. I also do not have a problem with Mexican people, and respect many things about their culture.

However, what are your thoughts on minimum wage? Do you think its a good thing? Do you think it should be higher?

What is your position on illegal laborers working for less than minimum wage? Do you think it is acceptable?

Many Democrats feel the current minimum wage is a joke, an insult, unsuitable etc. and want it to be raised (at the overall expense of the economy). But if you voice any advocacy for immigration reform, they tell you how important Mexicans are to the economy because of how cheap they are willing to work. So essentially Democrats see Mexicans as being below Americans on a fundamental human level, and think they are an asset simply as slaves.

What do you think about that, K blaz

[macmac]

Mexicans around my way drive Navigators and new F-150s because there are several adults who work and pool their money till they can branch out. They are doing better than black people from what I see. And I respect it.

Third of this country was theirs before we moved the line and just looking at the numbers...they will be roughly equal to whites in my lifetime.

This will be their country in 50 years. And im fine with it.

You're fooling yourself if you think it will be their country. They might multiply and inhabit a large portion of the country but the power will always remain in the white gated communities of CEOs, lobbyists, politicians, stock brockers and high end professionals

[OldSkoolball#52]

You're fooling yourself if you think it will be their country. They might multiply and inhabit a large portion of the country but the power will always remain in the white gated communities of CEOs, lobbyists, politicians, stock brockers and high end professionals


Not only this, but if they aren't qualified to work the jobs that will be relevant in the future, "their country" is going to suck donkey ballzack. Exacerbated by the fact that their reproduction rates will soon have America looking like China. How exciting.

We are actually fortunate right now that because the Mexican economy has picked up a little bit of steam while the American economy is slightly stagnated, immigration across the southern border is lower at this point in time than it has been in a long time. However, the issue still needs to be addressed to prevent future mass immigration. The industrial boom is over for America. The digital/tech age is here and those are the positions that need to be filled. People who come here and aren't equipped to provide those services will inevitably consume more of Americans resources than the produce. On a large (and growing) scale, that is very bad for an economy. its just that simple.

I wish people could take the emotion out of it. You're (meaning ppl in genearl) so afraid that you're gonna hurt someones feeling or sound "insensitive" that you take completely irrational and impractical positions about these thigns. It has nothing to do with hate or bigotry and nationalism or patriotism. It's pretty much simple economics. At any given time, there is an 'ideal' population figure for where a country/economy is. It's hard enough to control something like that as it is, without having the unpredictability of mass immigration. Nobody is saying don't allow foreigners to move here. They're simply saying the process has to be monitored, regulated, and enforced. It's amazing how Democrats want vigorous regulation of business, but not of unauthorized immigration??

[HarryCallahan]

OP; minimum wage should be abolished. Whatever happened to cinema ushers, gas pump attendants and grocery baggers? Minimum wage laws made those jobs disappear.

[Jailblazers7]

This thread is why political discussion in America blows. The OP builds a weak, simplistic strawman that is assigned to a party based on media generalizations and then knocks it down.

There is actually a lot of good discussion to be done on immigration but this thread isnt it.

[OldSkoolball#52]

The OP builds a weak, simplistic strawman that is assigned to a party based on media generalizations and then knocks it down.


Back this up.

Find a specific example of something I said that you think was incorrect, deceptive, misrepresentative, and explain what makes you think that.

I'll wait.

So far everyone else in the thread at least gave an opinion related or semi-related to the topic. If you're gonna complain about political discussion, at least put your money where your mouth is and back up the opinion you just gave.

[Kblaze8855]

What do I think?

I think you did what many people do...you decided what your opposition thinks and narrowed it down as much as possible for the express purpose of making it sound unreasonable.

The idea that democrats all think illegals should stay so they can work sub minimum wage jobs is so out of line with reality its not worth discussing.

It makes me assume you dont want to actually have a conversation about it.

Im sure that if you wanted you could find a quote or two from people having 2 hour discussions on it that mention them working low paying jobs in a 9 second clip...but to narrow it down to something like that just makes me assume you arent trying to be reasonable.

[IamRAMBO24]

Back this up.

Find a specific example of something I said that you think was incorrect, deceptive, misrepresentative, and explain what makes you think that.

I'll wait.

So far everyone else in the thread at least gave an opinion related or semi-related to the topic. If you're gonna complain about political discussion, at least put your money where your mouth is and back up the opinion you just gave.

Your premise is wrong:

1. Mexicans are being treated like "slaves" because of minimum wage.

First, your compassion towards Mexicans is laughable. You are a covert racist: the fact you went on a tirade over latino music being played at Macy's and outright using that as a premise to build up an argument towards the "downfall of America" is laughable.

Second, your definition of "slaves" is incorrect: you define Mexicans as slaves because they are willing to work long hours at minimum wage. Do you know what is slave work? The jobs in mexico, working at factories in China, and the worst kind of "slavery": having no job nor any opportunity.

Therefore, since your definition is wrong and your intent is wrong, this makes your premise a strawmen.

Be honest with your argument and maybe people will take you seriously; as is, you're just another bullsh*t pawn for foxnews. They're pros at logical deception; it's evident you are taking cues from them because the same crap you are talking about is the same sh*t Sean Hannity spews day in and day out.

[Patrick Chewing]

There is actually a lot of good discussion to be done on immigration but this thread isnt it.


So where is your thread on it??

[OldSkoolball#52]

What do I think?

I think you did what many people do...you decided what your opposition thinks and narrowed it down as much as possible for the express purpose of making it sound unreasonable.

The idea that democrats all think illegals should stay so they can work sub minimum wage jobs is so out of line with reality its not worth discussing.

It makes me assume you dont want to actually have a conversation about it.

Im sure that if you wanted you could find a quote or two from people having 2 hour discussions on it that mention them working low paying jobs in a 9 second clip...but to narrow it down to something like that just makes me assume you arent trying to be reasonable.

Ok so let's take out my humorous and didactic characterizations and delicious poetic licensing.

What is your opinion on illegal immigrants working for wages below what has been determined to be the minimum legal wage suitable for American workers? The minimum wage that was put in place to as a protective measure for workers, so that they can provide a basic life for themselves and their families.

What are your thoughts on the fact that Democats typically turn a blind eye to this concept in order to defend the presence of illegal immigrants?

You know what the crux of my point is, and how it clearly illustrates a hypocrisy. Saying you won't answer me because you don't like my tone and my rhetoric just looks like a cop out. People like you and jailblazer, based on what I can tell from your responses here, probably would support higher minimum wage, as well as illegal immigrant labor in separate discussions. And then when someone puts them side by side and illustrates the contradiction and asks what you think, you say "i dont wanna talk about it anymore"

maybe I'm wrong. I don't know what your actual feelings are on it. im just tellin you what your response so far seems to indicate.

[nathanjizzle]

didnt read.

[bmulls]

Your premise is wrong:

1. Mexicans are being treated like "slaves" because of minimum wage.

First, your compassion towards Mexicans is laughable. You are a covert racist: the fact you went on a tirade over latino music being played at Macy's and outright using that as a premise to build up an argument towards the "downfall of America" is laughable.

Second, your definition of "slaves" is incorrect: you define Mexicans as slaves because they are willing to work long hours at minimum wage. Do you know what is slave work? The jobs in mexico, working at factories in China, and the worst kind of "slavery": having no job nor any opportunity.

Therefore, since your definition is wrong and your intent is wrong, this makes your premise a strawmen.

Be honest with your argument and maybe people will take you seriously; as is, you're just another bullsh*t pawn for foxnews. They're pros at logical deception; it's evident you are taking cues from them because the same crap you are talking about is the same sh*t Sean Hannity spews day in and day out.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The irony, it hurts.

He's criticizing the Democrat party's stance on immigration, not the Mexicans themselves. Your calling him a racist is an ad hominem attack, and the rest of your post is arguing semantics.

Let someone else handle this one, champ.

[IamRAMBO24]

Ok so let's take out my humorous and didactic characterizations and delicious poetic licensing.

What is your opinion on illegal immigrants working for wages below what has been determined to be the minimum legal wage suitable for American workers? The minimum wage that was put in place to as a protective measure for workers, so that they can provide a basic life for themselves and their families.

What are your thoughts on the fact that Democats typically turn a blind eye to this concept in order to defend the presence of illegal immigrants?

You know what the crux of my point is, and how it clearly illustrates a hypocrisy. Saying you won't answer me because you don't like my tone and my rhetoric just looks like a cop out. People like you and jailblazer, based on what I can tell from your responses here, probably would support higher minimum wage, as well as illegal immigrant labor in separate discussions. And then when someone puts them side by side and illustrates the contradiction and asks what you think, you say "i dont wanna talk about it anymore"

maybe I'm wrong. I don't know what your actual feelings are on it. im just tellin you what your response so far seems to indicate.

Again, another strawmen: Democrats support below minimum wage for illegal immigrant labor.

Where the f*ck did you get this? Show me one Democratic politician that has gone on record and said they support paying someone below minimum wage, let alone someone who said they support workers who obtain their jobs through illegal means.

You're full of sh*t. Can you be honest for once?

[IamRAMBO24]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The irony, it hurts.

He's criticizing the Democrat party's stance on immigration, not the Mexicans themselves. Your calling him a racist is an ad hominem attack, and the rest of your post is arguing semantics.

Let someone else handle this one, champ.

No he is not. His premise is not properly defined and full of sh*t. This is not about immigration, but some bullsh*t about slave labor, hyprocrisy, or whatever sh*t he is pulling out of a*s to encourage his covert racist view of Mexicans.

I didn't call him a racist; I called him a "covert" racist. Huge difference.

[iamgine]

Now, hear me out. I only ask this because typically it is Democrats who attempt to block comprehensive immigration reform. They want open borders, and as many immigrants to come here undocumented and do as they wish as possible. To his credit, the President has agreed to put reform on the table, and to the dismay and predictable discredit of many of the losers in his party, they're unhappy about it.

So when you talk to Democrats about illegal immigration, they will say the following: (Well, first of all, they will call you racist because Mexico is a race. But then they will say the following):

"Mexicans come here and do the jobs Americans don't want to do. It also provides important cheap labor for the economy. Without Mexican workers, agriculture would be more expensive, as well as the products and services in various other industries. Americans benefit from illegal immigrants!!!!!!"

Ok. So let's take that at face value. Fair enough. Now let's talk about lowering the minimum wage in America, in order to increase jobs, boost supply, and ultimately lower prices and increase investment.

"NAHHH UHHHH!!!!! You have to raise minimum wage!!!! Its not fair that somebody whos 35 and works at burger king can't support his family for 8 dollars an hour!!!! no fair!!!! down with wall street, jerk!!!! you can't lower minimum wage its not fair!!!!! How do you expect a guy who only gets 8 dollars an hour to afford his cigarettes and satelite TV and still be able to have health insurance. Minimum wage isnt even at a humane amount now, you cant lower itttttt!!!!! arghrhghrhghhhggggggrrrrrrr!!!!"


I see. So, basically, 8 dollars an hour is a barely humane wage that everyone should be entitled to, at minimum, in order to provide basic support for their families. Except for Mexicans, right? Mexicans deserve less. Because Democrats argue that we need immigrants here to work long hours with no benefits for less than minimum wage. But if, in a different conversation, you bring up the American minimum wage (and dont bring up immigrant labor, lest they realize they're being hypocrites) and how reducing minimum wage could stimulate business, they cry about how asinine that idea is and how people deserve a decent wage and its just filthy corporate greed that keeps minimum wage low.

So, when you think about it, Democrats basically see Mexicans as slaves. They want them here working the jobs nobody else wants, and for well below minimum wage. Yet they cry out for minimum wage being something every American deserves at the very least. Usually they're trying to get minimum wage raised, because they think they're taking care of a bunch of people out there who are just struggling to get by. But their argument for illegal labor is how willing those people are to work for a wage well below the poverty line.

So Democrats essentially view Americans as deserving a basic, civil pay rate simply for existing, simply for being a person with a job. It's a fundamental truth to them that they deserve an arbitrary "minimum" pay rate simply for agreeing to work. But Mexicans? Thank god we have them here to do all this work for these rates that are beneath the dignity and survivability of what Americans deserve.


I've just always found these two positions deliciously hypocritical. Can any of the Democrats here explain to me why they see Mexicans as less than human? I personally don't. But I'm not a staunch supporter of raising the minimum wage every few... minutes.
(Some) Mexicans break the law by entering the country illegally. They are seen as criminals, not slaves. Should criminals (American or otherwise) work for minimum wage? No, they should get less! Can they still be useful for society? Yes!

[bmulls]

(Some) Mexicans break the law by entering the country illegally. They are seen as criminals, not slaves. Should criminals (American or otherwise) work for minimum wage? No, they should get less! Can they still be useful for society? Yes!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you just proved his point. Democrats will cry that 8 bucks an hour is an inhumane, unlivable wage and then turn around and say "but it's okay for Mexicans to earn even less!"

[iamgine]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you just proved his point. Democrats will cry that 8 bucks an hour is an inhumane, unlivable wage and then turn around and say "but it's okay for Mexicans to earn even less!"
"Inhumane" is not the right word. "Not to the minimum American standard" is more like it. Of course, criminals like illegal immigrants should get less than that just like any other criminals.

[IamRAMBO24]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I think you just proved his point. Democrats will cry that 8 bucks an hour is an inhumane, unlivable wage and then turn around and say "but it's okay for Mexicans to earn even less!"

Y'know it is refreshing to see someone try to debate with me from a logical position: you did try to school me on ad hocs and what not (which is respectable).

So as a person versed in logic, you should be willing to defend your statement:

Cite one Democrat (who has gone on record) that said, "It is ok for Mexicans to earn less than minimum wage."

If you are dealing with an honest discussion, you have to defend every statement you make; you can't just pull sh*t out of your a*s and pretend it is a solid foundation.

Show me your logical skills; make me proud. Thanks.

[macmac]

"Inhumane" is not the right word. "Not to the minimum American standard" is more like it. Of course, criminals like illegal immigrants should get less than that just like any other criminals.

Yeah but colored people are using our bathrooms and restaurants and they're still entitled to minimum wage? Whats up with that? Food and board, I say, tops.

[HarryCallahan]

"Inhumane" is not the right word. "Not to the minimum American standard" is more like it. Of course, criminals like illegal immigrants should get less than that just like any other criminals.

Pretty sure drug dealers make well above minimum wage.

[iamgine]

Pretty sure drug dealers make well above minimum wage.
They shouldn't

[HarryCallahan]

They shouldn't

Why shouldn't they? Who are you to determine the value of the service they provide? Are you a drug user?

[iamgine]

Why shouldn't they? Who are you to determine the value of the service they provide? Are you a drug user?
for obvious reason

[HarryCallahan]

for obvious reason

Evidently it isn't obvious. I for one most definitely think that risking 10-15 in prison means you should earn more than $8/h. The laws of supply and demand also dictate a higher payrate than $8/h.

I think you're are being rather silly sir.

[iamgine]

Evidently it isn't obvious. I for one most definitely think that risking 10-15 in prison means you should earn more than $8/h. The laws of supply and demand also dictate a higher payrate than $8/h.

I think you're are being rather silly sir.
not to you maybe

[HarryCallahan]

not to you maybe

You're still being silly homie. You need to clarify what you meant by that statement. I have a hard time believing you think that the work/risk that drug dealers undertake is not worth $8p/h.

Are you saying they don't deserve it the same way that "Wall st ceo's don't deserve their bonuses"?

[JtotheIzzo]

Mexicans around my way drive Navigators and new F-150s because there are several adults who work and pool their money till they can branch out. They are doing better than black people from what I see. And I respect it.

Third of this country was theirs before we moved the line and just looking at the numbers...they will be roughly equal to whites in my lifetime.

This will be their country in 50 years. And im fine with it.

There will be bounce back as well. This entrepreneurial spirit might be better served in Mexico in the future if the situation there stabilizes. A lot will go back and rebuild their homeland.

[MetsPackers]

Just by glancing at your post I can tell that it is ignorant and not worth reading but i'll say this. I voted for Obama, registered democrat, and consider myself to be liberal, and yes, I do believe Mexicans should be treated like humans. I believe that there is a serious immigration problem in this country, but using that to promote racism and segregation is not American in any sense. Obviously there are serious problems in Mexico and these people come here to live a much better life, but we simply cannot take anyone who wants to come here. We need to stop illegal immigration and remove people who came to this country and became criminals or do not contribute, but those who legally naturalize themselves (through birth, living for X years and working, family, etc) are now Americans and should be treated as such. Just like you and me. This country is not yours or mine, it belongs to every American, regardless of race. It is OUR country.

I don't think this is a democrat or republican issue either, I just think you're a racist. Illegal immigration is an issue no doubt, but if Canadians were doing it you wouldn't still be able to state that you think Mexicans are subhuman without blatantly appearing racist. Even though you already do. I'm white btw

[Myth]

OP is missing the point on allowing immigrants rights. If they are allowed in, then they can apply for regular jobs and be taxed like everybody else. The reason they take jobs below minimum wage now is because their options are limited since they have no leverage to get higher paying jobs.

[tomtucker]

why can

[iamgine]

You're still being silly homie. You need to clarify what you meant by that statement. I have a hard time believing you think that the work/risk that drug dealers undertake is not worth $8p/h.

Are you saying they don't deserve it the same way that "Wall st ceo's don't deserve their bonuses"?
Criminal activities.

[Myth]

[QUOTE=tomtucker]why can

[Patrick Chewing]

Just by glancing at your post I can tell that it is ignorant and not worth reading but i'll say this. I voted for Obama, registered democrat, and consider myself to be liberal, and yes, I do believe Mexicans should be treated like humans. I believe that there is a serious immigration problem in this country, but using that to promote racism and segregation is not American in any sense. Obviously there are serious problems in Mexico and these people come here to live a much better life, but we simply cannot take anyone who wants to come here. We need to stop illegal immigration and remove people who came to this country and became criminals or do not contribute, but those who legally naturalize themselves (through birth, living for X years and working, family, etc) are now Americans and should be treated as such. Just like you and me. This country is not yours or mine, it belongs to every American, regardless of race. It is OUR country.


Agree totally, but as a Liberal and a Democrat yourself, you have to be disappointed in this administration. Everything you mentioned is being echoed by Republicans at this juncture and in the grand scheme of things, ignoring the issue is what may cost Democrats the election come next year. The biggest sign of where this country is headed will be determined by next year's mid-term elections and illegal immigration will be a focal point. Notice how the economy is slowly getting better? It had to. There was no way it could get any worse and it would have risen regardless of who was in office, thus the media outlets don't cover it as much as they used to.

My prediction? This will be a rough last couple of years for this administration as approval levels will be lower by the end of this administration than the previous administration at the same point.

[HarryCallahan]

Criminal activities.

What about them? That doesn't clarify a damn thing man. Put your big boy pants on and construct a full sentence homie.

[iamgine]

What about them? That doesn't clarify a damn thing man. Put your big boy pants on and construct a full sentence homie.
not to you maybe

[HarryCallahan]

not to you maybe

This ain't twitter homie. You can use more than 120 characters. You're not funny nor smart.

When I post:


You're still being silly homie. You need to clarify what you meant by that statement. I have a hard time believing you think that the work/risk that drug dealers undertake is not worth $8p/h.

Are you saying they don't deserve it the same way that "Wall st ceo's don't deserve their bonuses"?

And you say:

Criminal activities.

That doesn't make any sense.

Inb4 "Not to you"

Stop shying away from intellectual conversation.

[iamgine]

This ain't twitter homie. You can use more than 120 characters. You're not funny nor smart.

When I post:



And you say:


That doesn't make any sense.

Inb4 "Not to you"

Stop shying away from intellectual conversation.
:confusedshrug: not to you maybe

[HarryCallahan]

:confusedshrug: not to you maybe

No, not to the English language.

That's like me asking: "What's your favourite number?"
And you saying: "Criminal activities."

Bad troll attempt, 1/10

[iamgine]

No, not to the English language.

That's like me asking: "What's your favourite number?"
And you saying: "Criminal activities."

Bad troll attempt, 1/10
you have bad comprehension maybe :confusedshrug:

[Jailblazers7]

Back this up.

Find a specific example of something I said that you think was incorrect, deceptive, misrepresentative, and explain what makes you think that.

I'll wait.

So far everyone else in the thread at least gave an opinion related or semi-related to the topic. If you're gonna complain about political discussion, at least put your money where your mouth is and back up the opinion you just gave.

This is a silly jump that leaves out a very important point:


So, when you think about it, Democrats basically see Mexicans as slaves. They want them here working the jobs nobody else wants, and for well below minimum wage.

Normally, Democrats bring up the whole "they work shitty jobs that nobody wants argument" in order to provide a defense for not removing them from the country. It is a defense of their existence in this country rather than a statement about their right to a livable wage.

Many would still make less than minimum wage when accepting under-the-table cash payments based on the difficulty of finding employment but people other than Mexicans do that every day.

The real crux of the argument is turning current illegal immigrants into citizens which would end the under minimum wage payments. The entire thread is about immigration but citizenship doesn't appear one time in the OP. From what I understand of the Democratic position, the party wants a more simplistic road to citizenship in order to bring immigrants above board instead of under the table working in a shadow economy. Once citizenship occurs immigrants have a much wider set of options to choose from when looking for employment which will allow them to get jobs that will earn min wage and make them pay taxes.

This thread makes a weak connection between two arguments to form a stawman and then runs with it. You leave out the issue that connects minimum wage and Mexican workers.


You know what the crux of my point is, and how it clearly illustrates a hypocrisy. Saying you won't answer me because you don't like my tone and my rhetoric just looks like a cop out. People like you and jailblazer, based on what I can tell from your responses here, probably would support higher minimum wage, as well as illegal immigrant labor in separate discussions. And then when someone puts them side by side and illustrates the contradiction and asks what you think, you say "i dont wanna talk about it anymore"

Just because I didn't like the way you framed the OP you put words in my mouth and assign me two viewpoints that fit right back into the OP. Not a hallmark of good discussion. The problem is that, when you put them side by side, you ignore a pretty important part of the immigration discussion which is the topic of actual immigration policy. Kind of important.

[Kblaze8855]

You know what the crux of my point is, and how it clearly illustrates a hypocrisy. Saying you won't answer me because you don't like my tone and my rhetoric just looks like a cop out.

I didnt wantto answer you because as I said...you boiled down a massive multi point argument of the last 50 years into "____ think mexicans shouldnt be paid like humans" which...just doesnt seem like someone who wants to be in a fair conversation.




People like you and jailblazer, based on what I can tell from your responses here, probably would support higher minimum wage, as well as illegal immigrant labor in separate discussions. And then when someone puts them side by side and illustrates the contradiction and asks what you think, you say "i dont wanna talk about it anymore"


There is no contradiction. Higher minimum wage would be nice. It wouldnt impact me....but ive had those jobs before. I got by then because I have discipline, no vices, and dont need much. But I do find it odd how many big companies use the "We love our employees!" line then pay guys sweating buckets to generate millions the least the law allows.

Far as mexicans....its no different than anyone else working off the books. Which ive also done. Get paid a flat rate for the day. May be 40 or 50 bucks. I mixed concrete in north carolina for 100 dollars a WEEK....I was 12....so it was illegal, under minimum wage(even for then), and I paid no taxes. So it was totally out of line...law wise. But I chose to do it. And I made more money than I could have otherwise.

Same can be said of many laborers no matter legal or not. Blacks, whites, hispanics, and anyone else work those no paperwork jobs. Its damn near as illegal no matter who works it. Its no papertrail, nothing paid into SS or taxes, and no way to track who does what or who is qualified or how safe or anything.

Its illegal no matter who does it. Its just a matter of how many laws are broken.

But ive done the work and feel mexicans and anyone else should have the same right.

You should be able to do any work someone offers you if the money is ok by you. That doesnt mean the entire concept of minimum wage is wrong.....that means a man has the right to feed his children by any means he sees fit long as hes not hurting people.

Minimum wage is there to keep companies driving down the pay rate making it harder on people who have it hard enough. It never has and never will stop guys from paying a kid 10 bucks to mow a lawn that takes 2 hours or giving a guy 50 bucks to work a day.

And it shouldnt.

It couldnt if you tried.

The government has no way to police "Hey kid..paint my fence for 20 bucks?". Just trying to get the manpower and logistics would cost more than taxing the work would return.

They can however...tell a company that opens its books up that it must pay its people decently.

Its impractical to even attempt to find all work being done and police it.

And its wrong to tell the people doing that work...which is all you allow them to do....not to do it.

They have to live outside the law more and more. Im sure many would work for Verizon and pay taxes if they were allowed.

They arent. So they feed their children by any means.

I respect it. Im in favor of people being able to get real jobs without a green card/work visa if they do it better than the next guy.

I dont feel some right to live a better life than the next man because of what side of an imaginary line I was born on.

We are all equals. Mexican guy has asm uch right to get his baby girl birthday presents as I do. And if he has to pick peaches to do it....I hope there are plenty to pick.

Id pick them too if I couldnt get my kids the Wii-U they want after getting good grades.

Hes brown. Im browner. You may be tanned pink. We are all just citizens of earth to me.

He doesnt hurt me...or my family...he can earn money how he pleases.

If the government wont let him get a job they can control wages for...he will work for what he can get.

And id do the same thing in his place.

We are all just trying to eat. And this country throws away enough every year to feed every person who dies of hunger in the world.

We can spare it.

My support for illegals staying has nothing to do with them helping our economy by doing work for less. It has everything to do with me not feeling a right to send a man working for his family back to a place he feels less capable of giving them a good life. The imaginary line means next to nothing to me. If not for maniacs trying to get here and blow shit up I wouldnt care if borders even existed.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Just by glancing at your post I can tell that it is ignorant and not worth reading but i'll say this. I voted for Obama, registered democrat, and consider myself to be liberal, and yes, I do believe Mexicans should be treated like humans. I believe that there is a serious immigration problem in this country, but using that to promote racism and segregation is not American in any sense. Obviously there are serious problems in Mexico and these people come here to live a much better life, but we simply cannot take anyone who wants to come here. We need to stop illegal immigration and remove people who came to this country and became criminals or do not contribute, but those who legally naturalize themselves (through birth, living for X years and working, family, etc) are now Americans and should be treated as such. Just like you and me. This country is not yours or mine, it belongs to every American, regardless of race. It is OUR country.

I don't think this is a democrat or republican issue either, I just think you're a racist. Illegal immigration is an issue no doubt, but if Canadians were doing it you wouldn't still be able to state that you think Mexicans are subhuman without blatantly appearing racist. Even though you already do. I'm white btw



^ This person here thinks American, Mexican, and Canadian are races.

This is the sort of basic, fundamental ignorance that prevents intelligent people from having an intelligent discussion. Fools like MetsPackers cannot understand fairly simple logical exercises, and thus has to resort to non-applicable racial propaganda and intimidation through buzz words.

This is one of the reasons I framed my post the way I did. Sure, I could have a dry, safe, ben-stein-esque post about immigration. But then idiots like MetsPackers wouldn't be exposed. Look how many posters in general immediately attacked 'how' I was saying it, rather than having a substantial refutation for 'what' I was saying. It's always the idiots that play the PC card when they don't have a good argument. What does a person's view on race even have to do with the subject? If their arguments are flawed, pick them apart. If they're not, recognize and realize you little ******. Saying "nahh uhh, racist racist! this guys just being racist!!!!" basically makes you look like a child who can't actually understand the conversation, and has just wet his diapers.

MetsPackers, I'm sorry you wet your diapers making me out to be a racist in a post that is clearly about nations, borders, labor, wages, and economics, none of which fall under any definition of the term 'race'. One day when you grow up, you'll be able to read and comprehend, and won't need diaper changes so often. Until then, stay away from things like cranberry juice and refried beans.

[IamRAMBO24]

If their arguments are flawed, pick them apart.

Why won't you answer me then?

[Nanners]

Oldskool seems very familiar..... starface??

[OldSkoolball#52]

I didnt wantto answer you because as I said...you boiled down a massive multi point argument of the last 50 years into "____ think mexicans shouldnt be paid like humans" which...just doesnt seem like someone who wants to be in a fair conversation.




There is no contradiction. Higher minimum wage would be nice. It wouldnt impact me....but ive had those jobs before. I got by then because I have discipline, no vices, and dont need much. But I do find it odd how many big companies use the "We love our employees!" line then pay guys sweating buckets to generate millions the least the law allows.

Far as mexicans....its no different than anyone else working off the books. Which ive also done. Get paid a flat rate for the day. May be 40 or 50 bucks. I mixed concrete in north carolina for 100 dollars a WEEK....I was 12....so it was illegal, under minimum wage(even for then), and I paid no taxes. So it was totally out of line...law wise. But I chose to do it. And I made more money than I could have otherwise.

Same can be said of many laborers no matter legal or not. Blacks, whites, hispanics, and anyone else work those no paperwork jobs. Its damn near as illegal no matter who works it. Its no papertrail, nothing paid into SS or taxes, and no way to track who does what or who is qualified or how safe or anything.

Its illegal no matter who does it. Its just a matter of how many laws are broken.

But ive done the work and feel mexicans and anyone else should have the same right.

You should be able to do any work someone offers you if the money is ok by you. That doesnt mean the entire concept of minimum wage is wrong.....that means a man has the right to feed his children by any means he sees fit long as hes not hurting people.

Minimum wage is there to keep companies driving down the pay rate making it harder on people who have it hard enough. It never has and never will stop guys from paying a kid 10 bucks to mow a lawn that takes 2 hours or giving a guy 50 bucks to work a day.

And it shouldnt.

It couldnt if you tried.

The government has no way to police "Hey kid..paint my fence for 20 bucks?". Just trying to get the manpower and logistics would cost more than taxing the work would return.

They can however...tell a company that opens its books up that it must pay its people decently.

Its impractical to even attempt to find all work being done and police it.

And its wrong to tell the people doing that work...which is all you allow them to do....not to do it.

They have to live outside the law more and more. Im sure many would work for Verizon and pay taxes if they were allowed.

They arent. So they feed their children by any means.



I agree that working under the table is fine. But that's not the point. I'm consistent in my principles that things like minimum wage and labor laws in general are over-regulated. For all people. I'm not clamoring for all sorts of worker rights excesses on the one hand, while also playing the "mexicans do jobs nobody else will" (no, they do jobs nobody else will at those wages) and "illegals are a huge help to the economy" lines. Those are two STANDARD defenses used by Democrats in debates about immigration. They defend the presence of illegal immigrants by praising their willingness to do jobs with low pay and no benefits. They talk about how important that is to the economy. They aren't intending to portray them as slaves or subhuman, the opposite in fact, but when they then move to arguments about wages and worker rights, and talk about people fundamentally deserve x wage, and x benefits, and x rights, they basically are saying just that. It's a blatant hypocrisy.



I dont feel some right to live a better life than the next man because of what side of an imaginary line I was born on.


Has nothing to do with rights and this is another frequently used rhetoric I find bogus. It's not about rights, it's about reality. Sometimes reality is a derivative of chance. That doesn't make it unacceptable to protect what is yours now. If you inherited $10,000 from your grandfather, I assume you wouldn't just give anyone who asked the PIN to your bank account since "you dont have any more right to that money than they do" or whatever. The fact is, America is a country, there is such a thing called citizenship, and there are consequences to all of us in upsetting the balance of population and work force and wages. Sitting there playing the "its just imaginary lines" game is counterproductive and even dangerous, considering the lines actually have pretty big significance when it comes to the actual real world, not the 'pretend perfect' one the left likes to idealize. How would you like it if the officers at the border check waived in a huge caravan of hundreds of armed cartel hitmen, and said "come on in fellas! make yourselves at home. don't mind this whole border thing, we're not gonna give you a hard time. after all, it's just imaginary lines!" Hmm..



We are all equals. Mexican guy has asm uch right to get his baby girl birthday presents as I do. And if he has to pick peaches to do it....I hope there are plenty to pick.


Id pick them too if I couldnt get my kids the Wii-U they want after getting good grades.

Hes brown. Im browner. You may be tanned pink. We are all just citizens of earth to me.



You know Mexico has stricter laws about immigration and labor concerning its immigrants from central america, than the US does about its own immigrants? I'm not sure why you've brought skin color into the conversation. We may all be 'citizens of earth' to you, but the documents that actually matter legally, like, you know, your birth certificate or drivers license do not say "Earth". They say United States, or Mexico, or Nicaragua. That's reality.




My support for illegals staying has nothing to do with them helping our economy by doing work for less. It has everything to do with me not feeling a right to send a man working for his family back to a place he feels less capable of giving them a good life. The imaginary line means next to nothing to me. If not for maniacs trying to get here and blow shit up I wouldnt care if borders even existed.

This is the sort of pie-in-the-sky poeticism liberals love to spout because it sounds wonderful. But the reason its non existent in the real world is because it ultimately results in anarchy, which results in instability and a fundamental lack of safety and protection. It's the same old debate, illustrated in A Few Good Men. Some people have the guts to do whats necessary, even when its not pretty, even when its not popular, and even when its not fair. and the people who live in a place that benefits so remarkably from the men who have those principles and are willing to do the dirty work, do nothing but sit around writing poems about what jerks those men are, sit around feeling superior and elitist for thinking they've figured it all out, that if we all just form a circle and sing kumbaya, that nobody will ever take advantage of our weak, trusting, gullible, pretentious, pansy asses. Just idealize the world. There are wolves everywhere. In our own country, in other countries, in all of history. That's why people form bonds, communities, countries. For mutual safety. You protect yours first, then you can help others. It has to work that way for it to work at all. That's why when the oxygen mask comes down on the plane, the instruction is "secure yours first, then assist those around you who need it". You're living in a fairy world my friend. The least you can do is appreciate the factors and aspects of society that keep you safe in it. Reducing borders to "imaginary lines" is not one of them.

[PHX_Phan]

Oldskool seems very familiar..... starface??

This is my guess.

[Nanners]

This is my guess.


He posts a huge pile of logical fallacies an uses them to promote thinly veiled racism, thats classic starface.

[Akrazotile]

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Excellent story, brother. I also do not have a problem with Mexican people, and respect many things about their culture.

However, what are your thoughts on minimum wage? Do you think its a good thing? Do you think it should be higher?

What is your position on illegal laborers working for less than minimum wage? Do you think it is acceptable?

Many Democrats feel the current minimum wage is a joke, an insult, unsuitable etc. and want it to be raised (at the overall expense of the economy). But if you voice any advocacy for immigration reform, they tell you how important Mexicans are to the economy because of how cheap they are willing to work. So essentially Democrats see Mexicans as being below Americans on a fundamental human level, and think they are an asset simply as slaves.

What do you think about that, K blaz

[Akrazotile]

I agree that working under the table is fine. But that's not the point. I'm consistent in my principles that things like minimum wage and labor laws in general are over-regulated. For all people. I'm not clamoring for all sorts of worker rights excesses on the one hand, while also playing the "mexicans do jobs nobody else will" (no, they do jobs nobody else will at those wages) and "illegals are a huge help to the economy" lines. Those are two STANDARD defenses used by Democrats in debates about immigration. They defend the presence of illegal immigrants by praising their willingness to do jobs with low pay and no benefits. They talk about how important that is to the economy. They aren't intending to portray them as slaves or subhuman, the opposite in fact, but when they then move to arguments about wages and worker rights, and talk about people fundamentally deserve x wage, and x benefits, and x rights, they basically are saying just that. It's a blatant hypocrisy.




Has nothing to do with rights and this is another frequently used rhetoric I find bogus. It's not about rights, it's about reality. Sometimes reality is a derivative of chance. That doesn't make it unacceptable to protect what is yours now. If you inherited $10,000 from your grandfather, I assume you wouldn't just give anyone who asked the PIN to your bank account since "you dont have any more right to that money than they do" or whatever. The fact is, America is a country, there is such a thing called citizenship, and there are consequences to all of us in upsetting the balance of population and work force and wages. Sitting there playing the "its just imaginary lines" game is counterproductive and even dangerous, considering the lines actually have pretty big significance when it comes to the actual real world, not the 'pretend perfect' one the left likes to idealize. How would you like it if the officers at the border check waived in a huge caravan of hundreds of armed cartel hitmen, and said "come on in fellas! make yourselves at home. don't mind this whole border thing, we're not gonna give you a hard time. after all, it's just imaginary lines!" Hmm..





You know Mexico has stricter laws about immigration and labor concerning its immigrants from central america, than the US does about its own immigrants? I'm not sure why you've brought skin color into the conversation. We may all be 'citizens of earth' to you, but the documents that actually matter legally, like, you know, your birth certificate or drivers license do not say "Earth". They say United States, or Mexico, or Nicaragua. That's reality.




This is the sort of pie-in-the-sky poeticism liberals love to spout because it sounds wonderful. But the reason its non existent in the real world is because it ultimately results in anarchy, which results in instability and a fundamental lack of safety and protection. It's the same old debate, illustrated in A Few Good Men. Some people have the guts to do whats necessary, even when its not pretty, even when its not popular, and even when its not fair. and the people who live in a place that benefits so remarkably from the men who have those principles and are willing to do the dirty work, do nothing but sit around writing poems about what jerks those men are, sit around feeling superior and elitist for thinking they've figured it all out, that if we all just form a circle and sing kumbaya, that nobody will ever take advantage of our weak, trusting, gullible, pretentious, pansy asses. Just idealize the world. There are wolves everywhere. In our own country, in other countries, in all of history. That's why people form bonds, communities, countries. For mutual safety. You protect yours first, then you can help others. It has to work that way for it to work at all. That's why when the oxygen mask comes down on the plane, the instruction is "secure yours first, then assist those around you who need it". You're living in a fairy world my friend. The least you can do is appreciate the factors and aspects of society that keep you safe in it. Reducing borders to "imaginary lines" is not one of them.



gawd damn, homie done KILLED it here :lol

[ROCSteady]

I can't believe all that was a single post on Insidehoops Outside The Court Lounge.

Dunno whether I admire the passion or pity your neurosis

[Akrazotile]

I can't believe all that was a single post on Insidehoops Outside The Court Lounge.

Dunno whether I admire the passion or pity your neurosis


Hey, I'm no hero. Just a guy looking for answers.




http://www.thehomeplanet.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/2vjzuyo.jpg.gif

[GimmeThat]

actually,

Mexicans/foreigners are brought in to do jobs that the others don't want to be seen doing. And yes, you can say it's undocumented work, cheap labor, or jobs others don't want. But the more realistic aspect of it all, is the under ground drug smuggling/dealing nature that are jobs the Americans need yet don't want to see their own doing.

they've made it, they are the consumers, but they don't want to be seen distributing it.

and who's willing to take those risks besides those that are undocumented or those that have a great relationship with the law enforcement?

[Akrazotile]

This thread is why political discussion in America blows. The OP builds a weak, simplistic strawman that is assigned to a party based on media generalizations and then knocks it down.

There is actually a lot of good discussion to be done on immigration but this thread isnt it.


Still waiting.

[Draz]

It's not just Mexicans.

[Akrazotile]

This thread is why political discussion in America blows. The OP builds a weak, simplistic strawman that is assigned to a party based on media generalizations and then knocks it down.

There is actually a lot of good discussion to be done on immigration but this thread isnt it.


Go ahead, we're all listening.

[Jailblazers7]

Alright I see the thread. Can you just pm the link to this in case it drops off the first page? Don't feel like typing out a response now and I can't guarantee I'll have time to answer tomorrow at work.

I was def in my know-it-all prick stage a year ago but I def disagree with your OP.

[TheMan]

White people are not going to let that happen.
:oldlol:

[RidonKs]

Now, hear me out. I only ask this because typically it is Democrats who attempt to block comprehensive immigration reform.
false.

neither side has ever been much interested in opening up the issue. the last time was bush in 2006 and the entire country erupted in protest. it's extremely contentious. democrats dug in their heals throughout the bush presidency, but nowhere near the level of the obstructionism we've witnessed by republican congressmen the past few years.


They want open borders, and as many immigrants to come here undocumented and do as they wish as possible.
false.

nowhere in its platform does the democratic party support any such thing. in fact, it explicitly says the opposite. and as for its followers, that's more difficult to say but surely many if not most would have more nuanced views than the shrill nonsense you just shoved into their mouths.


Now let's talk about lowering the minimum wage in America, in order to increase jobs, boost supply, and ultimately lower prices and increase investment.
you provide no evidence to support this thesis. and in fact there is significant counter evidence abundantly available.


I see. (1)So, basically, 8 dollars an hour is a barely humane wage that everyone should be entitled to, at minimum, in order to provide basic support for their families. (2)Except for Mexicans, right? Mexicans deserve less. Because Democrats argue that we need immigrants here to work long hours with no benefits for less than minimum wage. (3)But if, in a different conversation, you bring up the American minimum wage (and dont bring up immigrant labor, lest they realize they're being hypocrites) and how reducing minimum wage could stimulate business, they cry about how asinine that idea is and how people deserve a decent wage and its just filthy corporate greed that keeps minimum wage low.
woah thats a mouthful. let's break it down bit by bit.

(1) a hypothetical $8/hr minimum wage would be an acceptable improvement to a federally enforced standard of employment. it would more closely approach an equilibrium between the two major interests, employers and employees.

you are wrong however, in that not everybody would be entitled to it. only those who work. there are of course people with families to support but no job to support them with. they are not entitled to $8/hr.

(2) you are mistaken and there is no hypocrisy between the two strawmen you assign to democrats.

a defense of the general value (they pick our fruit!) that a group of people (illegal immigrants) bring to a country (the united states) is different from a defense of the specific value as it is currently priced in the real economy.

democrats are only doing the former. you accuse them of doing the latter when they in fact explicitly reject that position... so explicitly do they reject that position that you allude to that very rejection multiple times in your post.

here are the issues as best i can clarify them

your shitty strawmen: DEMOCRATS THINK MEXICANS SHOULD BE HERE TO WORK FOR ILLEGAL WAGES AND DEMOCRATS WANT TO RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE BUT NOT FOR PEOPLE MAKING ILLEGAL WAGES

my valiant interpretation : democrats understand that the american economy is currently dependent upon an unregulated black market of labour. while its current status is untenable, it is nevertheless integral to a large economic sector. there is also a large social community which owes its livelihood to the same black market. democrats believe that to avoid economic shock and social turmoil, it is necessary to incorporate the black market into the real economy.

furthermore you again refer to a thesis, that reducing the minimum wage will stimulate economic growth and raise employment, for which you have provided no evidence.


So, when you think about it, Democrats basically see Mexicans as slaves.
no they don't

They want them here working the jobs nobody else wants, and for well below minimum wage.
you're wrong.


Yet they cry out for minimum wage being something every American deserves at the very least. Usually they're trying to get minimum wage raised, because they think they're taking care of a bunch of people out there who are just struggling to get by.
absolutely.


But their argument for illegal labor is how willing those people are to work for a wage well below the poverty line.
no, this isn't true. they don't propose arguments for illegal labour. they are explicitly opposed to it.


So Democrats essentially view Americans as deserving a basic, civil pay rate simply for existing, simply for being a person with a job.
not simply for existing.


It's a fundamental truth to them that they deserve an arbitrary "minimum" pay rate simply for agreeing to work.
the arbitrary pay rate for agreeing work work is not a fundamental truth to them. they just believe it should be higher.

if i want oil prices to stay low so that dangerous energy projects are unprofitable and therefore cast aside, does that mean that $74/barrel is my fundamental truth? shut the fk up dude


But Mexicans? Thank god we have them here to do all this work for these rates that are beneath the dignity and survivability of what Americans deserve.
it is good that they're working. it is not good that they are left out of regulatory privileges such as minimum wage that come from living in a civilized society.


I've just always found these two positions deliciously hypocritical. Can any of the Democrats here explain to me why they see Mexicans as less than human? I personally don't. But I'm not a staunch supporter of raising the minimum wage every few... minutes.
as i've explained at some length and with some considerable exertion on my reading comprehension capacity, these positions are not hypocritical, much less deliciously so. they are in fact just two conflicting positions on a complicated issue that requires a nuanced multidimensional approach. you have elected to approach the issue with the subtlety of a hammerhead and a wildly imaginative but nevertheless totally removed from reality understanding of the involved parties and their interests.




there are a few of the errors you made in your opening post. while your underlying and unstated premises are also ripe for undressing, that would nevertheless be a much more arduous task that i will refrain from taking up here. quite frankly i thought jb did a fine job of responding to your initial queries, and i was surprised to see the bump requesting still more spanking. still i decided to waste my time on your remarks, if only to make concrete certain they were in in fact bumbling nonsense. mission accomplished.

[Akrazotile]

furthermore you again refer to a thesis, that reducing the minimum wage will stimulate economic growth and raise employment, for which you have provided no evidence.
.

Are you serious?

It's a known dynamic that lower wages create more jobs.

Why the **** do you think so many factory jobs have gone overseas?


I'll wait. I want an answer to that. Because thats basically the thread holding your whole garbage post together and you completely whiffed on it. Agenda confirmed.


If wages dont affect employment availability, why did so many American jobs go overseas?

Its like one of the most basic economic principles and you apparently dont understand it.

[RidonKs]

again you're just huffing and puffing questions you haven't thought through

there are plenty of reasons jobs have shifted from the industrial world to the developing world. as you well know, poor regulatory regimes are a huge part of it. but we aren't merely talking about the regulation of labour. business is moving its supply chain and increasingly its distribution abroad to avoid all sorts of red tape; environmental, health, safety, consumer protection, etc etc.

there is also international competition between state governments around the world, each attempting to lure foreign investment by big firms. there are many gifts bestowed upon businesses that agree to set up shop outside of america; subsidies, tax rebates, guaranteed loans, and all the rest. trust me, i live in a small canadian province lacking in capital and i see it first hand.

more than that, there are glaring tax loopholes that allow american companies to avoid the tax system by keeping capital outside the us. this isn't conspiracy, it's practically gospel at this point. there are enormous fiscal incentives to moving your capital outside of the united states.

more importantly than all of that, however, is that you still haven't offered any elaboration of your thesis. sorry but it isn't a basic principle of economics. it's conventional wisdom in popular economics discourse.

the effect a change to the minimum wage will have on the labour market will depend on the rest of the economy. this is why increases in the wage over the years have lead to different effects... which is why the issue is so contentious.

to reduce the conversation to "lower wages, get jobs" is obviously not a serious contribution to an important issue.

[Godzuki]

all i know is America without mexicans would be shit.

first off they take jobs nobody else wants. so many people snub their nose at min wage jobs but not mexicans. landscaping companies would all go out of business.

then theres the food trucks. pork tortas are delicious :cheers: they're like the only ones running non chain mexican food joints and the more the merrier :cheers:

and mexican girls are hot... imo. i also find most mexicans very friendly people in general :pimp:

[Jailblazers7]

Came back to answer you're question and realized that I did over a year ago...to which you did not respond.

[RidonKs]

it's weird he decided to double down on this particular thread, which is damn weak even by his standards. usually i can at least sympathize with the point of his rant by the end of it... but declaring democrats commit mexicans to slavery is just insane.

[Relinquish]

Summary: Democrats think the minimum wage should be increased while Republicans think there should be more jobs, even if that means that people are living off pennies.

Both parties :facepalm

American politics :facepalm

[nathanjizzle]

typically it is Democrats who attempt to block comprehensive immigration reform. They want open borders, and as many immigrants to come here undocumented and do as they wish as possible.

stopped reading here.