"Defense wins Championships"

[bdreason]

Listening to Popovich post game, and he lists the best 3 defenses in the NBA as the Grizz, Pacers, and Heat. I personally think the Spurs are also in that conversation. Assuming the Pacers get past the Knicks, we will be looking at a NBA Playoff Semi-Finals that consists of arguably the best 4 defenses in the NBA.

I'm not sure it's going to make for 'pretty' basketball games, but I'm personally going to enjoy the defensive battles.

[SoCalLakersFan1]

Spurs are probably #4, but all those defenses are comparable. Did Pop imply that the Knicks are gonna get eliminated? :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Statistically, the Spurs had the 3rd best defense in the NBA this season along with the Pacers & Grizzlies. BTW, Miami hasn't allowed a team to score 100 points in the postseason so far.

[AussieG]

Defense is a constant thing, while contested jumpers, floaters or long 3 pointers come and go. And the later in later into a series, the less they seem to fall.

Sometimes it's not even defense itself.. but just pressure. Pressure of the defense, pressure of the moment, etc.

[bdreason]

Spurs are probably #4, but all those defenses are comparable. Did Pop imply that the Knicks are gonna get eliminated? :lol


No, he was asked about the Grizz and he mentioned that they're one of the top defensive teams, along with Miami and Indy.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Defense is a constant thing, while contested jumpers, floaters or long 3 pointers come and go. And the later in later into a series, the less they seem to fall.

Sometimes it's not even defense itself.. but just pressure. Pressure of the defense, pressure of the moment, etc.
Great post.

[DuMa]

Chicago has a better defense than the Spurs do

[RoundMoundOfReb]

SAS, Memphis and Iny had the 3 best drtgs this year and Miami was like 8th but in reality they are better than that especially when guys like Lebron start playing 40+ minutes.

[poido123]

Chicago has a better defense than the Spurs do

Spurs also have a far better and more organised offense than Chicago and a slightly better coach.

Don't worry, Spurs can challenge Heat.

[Wonder Bread Kid]

Chicago has a better defense than the Spurs do

They do not, but ok. :oldlol:

[TMT]

Chicago has a better defense than the Spurs do

You actually have a solid point. At their best Chicago is definitely a better defensive team but the Spurs are a more consistent defensive squad and lately have really stepped up on that end.

[bdreason]

I think Spurs have better defensive players than the Bulls, but Bulls play a little bit better team defense.

[DetroitPistonFan]

Listening to Popovich post game, and he lists the best 3 defenses in the NBA as the Grizz, Pacers, and Heat. I personally think the Spurs are also in that conversation. Assuming the Pacers get past the Knicks, we will be looking at a NBA Playoff Semi-Finals that consists of arguably the best 4 defenses in the NBA.

I'm not sure it's going to make for 'pretty' basketball games, but I'm personally going to enjoy the defensive battles.
It'll be like the 2010 Finals series. Both teams will struggle shooting the ball cause both team's All-Stars sucked.

[Artillery]

Spurs also have a far better and more organised offense than Chicago and a slightly better coach.

Don't worry, Spurs can challenge Heat.

This is true. SA had the 7th best offense in the league this year. In comparison, the Bulls had the 23rd best offense. The Grizzlies had the 17th best offense. Of course, Spurs offense is entirely contingent on Tony Parker's health. He looks banged up after some physical plays by Bogut and Green. If he's healthy, Spurs in six. If he's not Grizzlies make the Finals.

[K Xerxes]

IMO, top four defenses in the league are Memphis, Indiana, Miami and Chicago. I don't need any stats to come to that conclusion tbh, that's just for the eye test.

The way they go about it is significantly different. To contrast Memphis and Miami for example, Memphis have a strictly organised defense and fabulous individual defenders at every position. They understand how to help defend and the bigs understand how to shadow and roam. It worked especially well against a Westbrook-less OKC, in which Gasol was able to ignore Perkins and shadow Durant in front of the rim. On the other hand, Miami gambles. All the time. They really don't have positions, they rely on timing rotations perfectly. Which they honestly do most of the time. They are also the best trappers in the NBA and pressure the ball immensely. Ball movement beats Miami, but they are so supreme athletically that they can recover most of the time. Just by watching the games, LeBron, for how overrated he is as an on-ball defender, can shut down one half of the court just by his presence and pressuring.

Chicago and Indiana are more similar to Memphis; Miami is unique in how they defend. All incredibly incredibly elite.

The reason I dislike using defensive stats is that Miami's rating took a nose dive early on in the season with their nonchalance. But they amped it up significantly for the playoffs and are executing well now.

[kshutts1]

Statistically, the Spurs had the 3rd best defense in the NBA this season along with the Pacers & Grizzlies. BTW, Miami hasn't allowed a team to score 100 points in the postseason so far.
Considering who Miami has played... not impressed. lol

[PickernRoller]

Thread title - sure. Proven again and again. Defense stops offense. Better offense, defense combo wins.

Heat are the best perimeter defensive team in the league when they set their minds to that. Thus why in a perimeter oriented league they are, among other things, the best team in the league.

[Artillery]

IMO, top four defenses in the league are Memphis, Indiana, Miami and Chicago. I don't need any stats to come to that conclusion tbh, that's just for the eye test.

lol ignoring stats because they don't agree with you.

[ILLsmak]

Considering who Miami has played... not impressed. lol

yeah... sounds bad, but it's true. Those teams have terrible offenses.

I like watching defensive bball. I even can watch a game where a team misses shot after shot because it becomes more like soccer when they score.

The only games I can't stand are parades to the FT line, calling fouls to stop teams from playing D. I hope they let people grind it out. That last Indy/NY game (before the most recent one) had some great no calls.

Edit: Also, rebounding is a big part of defense. On both sides, really, securing the ball then keeping it away from the offense with offensive boards. That's the only part where Miami is weak.

-Smak

[Fudge]

IMO, top four defenses in the league are Memphis, Indiana, Miami and Chicago. I don't need any stats to come to that conclusion tbh, that's just for the eye test.

The way they go about it is significantly different. To contrast Memphis and Miami for example, Memphis have a strictly organised defense and fabulous individual defenders at every position. They understand how to help defend and the bigs understand how to shadow and roam. It worked especially well against a Westbrook-less OKC, in which Gasol was able to ignore Perkins and shadow Durant in front of the rim. On the other hand, Miami gambles. All the time. They really don't have positions, they rely on timing rotations perfectly. Which they honestly do most of the time. They are also the best trappers in the NBA and pressure the ball immensely. Ball movement beats Miami, but they are so supreme athletically that they can recover most of the time. Just by watching the games, LeBron, for how overrated he is as an on-ball defender, can shut down one half of the court just by his presence and pressuring.

Chicago and Indiana are more similar to Memphis; Miami is unique in how they defend. All incredibly incredibly elite.

The reason I dislike using defensive stats is that Miami's rating took a nose dive early on in the season with their nonchalance. But they amped it up significantly for the playoffs and are executing well now.
Well said.

[dh144498]

Statistically, the Spurs had the 3rd best defense in the NBA this season along with the Pacers & Grizzlies. BTW, Miami hasn't allowed a team to score 100 points in the postseason so far.

that's because Bucks and Bulls are both in the bottom 8 offenses in the league.

[Pointguard]

IMO, top four defenses in the league are Memphis, Indiana, Miami and Chicago. I don't need any stats to come to that conclusion tbh, that's just for the eye test.

On the other hand, Miami gambles. All the time. They really don't have positions, they rely on timing rotations perfectly. Which they honestly do most of the time. They are also the best trappers in the NBA and pressure the ball immensely. Ball movement beats Miami, but they are so supreme athletically that they can recover most of the time. Just by watching the games, LeBron, for how overrated he is as an on-ball defender, can shut down one half of the court just by his presence and pressuring.

Chicago and Indiana are more similar to Memphis; Miami is unique in how they defend. All incredibly incredibly elite.

The reason I dislike using defensive stats is that Miami's rating took a nose dive early on in the season with their nonchalance. But they amped it up significantly for the playoffs and are executing well now.
Good Post.

Yeah, Miami's gambling seems actually structured: They don't get upset when they get burned. And then sometimes they switch on every pick and role and if the team is surprised by it, they use it as an opportunity to gamble again. They play like they are some long armed team that can deflect every pass but they aren't really that long at all.

Then they have an accelerated speed pressure twice a game, and teams don't know when its coming. They try to make the opposing team over think. Fronting players, then going zone, then trapping. I enjoy watching them.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The "defense wins championship" cliche is deceptive. Yes, you almost always have to play good defense to win a title, but you also almost always have to be a good offensive team to win titles as well.

[nashwade]

Championship is about beating 4 teams

[ReturnofJPR]

Listening to Popovich post game, and he lists the best 3 defenses in the NBA as the Grizz, Pacers, and Heat. I personally think the Spurs are also in that conversation. Assuming the Pacers get past the Knicks, we will be looking at a NBA Playoff Semi-Finals that consists of arguably the best 4 defenses in the NBA.

I'm not sure it's going to make for 'pretty' basketball games, but I'm personally going to enjoy the defensive battles.

Trust me, the LEAGUE will ensure that LeBron looks pretty with bogus calls late in the game. As far as the for the other 3 teams, yes it will be ugly at times.

[AlphaWolf24]

Defense does win championships....

- meaning....the primary focus should be working together as a cohesive unit to contest shots and be in good positions to to contest shots and get rebounds....

- the primary focus of the team should not be on the offensive end and or who gets to play and take shots.

- but a team does need to score...duh......Defense alone does not win......but it should be the primary focus of a team.


I think that is what Pop was referring to.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Defense and unstoppable godlike scoring wins championships.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Defense does win championships....

- meaning....the primary focus should be working together as a cohesive unit to contest shots and be in good positions to to contest shots and get rebounds....

- the primary focus of the team should not be on the offensive end and or who gets to play and take shots.

- but a team does need to score...duh......Defense alone does not win......but it should be the primary focus of a team.


I think that is what Pop was referring to.

I don't necessarily agree that it should be more of a focus than offense. I think you should focus on working together as a cohesive unit offensively as well. Typically, teams that do this are more successful than teams that rely on isos. There have been championship teams I'd call more offensive-oriented.

[ncrizzle]

On defense a team truly has to play together every possession, at least if you want to play at a high level. While on offense there are plenty of possessions where a player will Iso and jack up a shot. One person can score buckets. But it takes 5 guys playing together, helping, switching, and knowing their assignments to stop an offense. When a team buys into playing hard team defense, it generally rubs off on the offensive end. You want to help the guy who came over to double your man forcing him into a turnover. You want to dish a dime to the cutter who blocked the shot that started the current possession.

Good defense is contagious. In the Ivaroni and Frattello days, The grizzlies use to be one of the highest scoring teams in the league, but one of the worst defensive teams in the leauge. They were horrible teams. The Lionel Hollins took over, and Tony Allen was aquired. Tony Allen is the reason the grizzlies are where they are right now. He would force team mates to play tenacios D if he had to, but the players want to badly. His D was infectious . Everyone on the team now plays with a sense of urgency and focus, the whole team playing as one.

[DatAsh]

The "defense wins championship" cliche is deceptive. Yes, you almost always have to play good defense to win a title, but you also almost always have to be a good offensive team to win titles as well.

I think the point is that defense is generally the more important of the two.

[daj0264]

Why lebron couldnt win a ring until the big 3. His defense is almost as overrated as Kobes.

[dh144498]

I think the point is that defense is generally the more important of the two.

what makes you say that?
Why can't offense be the more important of the two, or the two being equally important?

[DatAsh]

what makes you say that?
Why can't offense be the more important of the two, or the two being equally important?

It's not that it can't be, it's just that the stats seem to suggest it's not.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think the point is that defense is generally the more important of the two.

And I disagree with that.

If you look at championship teams, there are a number that I'd say were better offensively than they were defensively, particularly the Showtime Lakers, but also the '95 Rockets, Shaq/Kobe Lakers(well, at least '01 and '02), Kobe/Pau Lakers and '11 Mavs. Miami are also heavily favored this year, and they're arguably better offensively than they are defensively, though their defensive leads to a good amount of their offense, so that's kind of difficult to say.

There are others I'd say were roughly equal at both ends such as the 80's Celtics and 90's Bulls.

So I really don't see what their actually is to support this. Again, I think they're both half of the game and neither is more important than the other in general.

[Odinn]

And I disagree with that.

If you look at championship teams, there are a number that I'd say were better offensively than they were defensively, particularly the Showtime Lakers, but also the '95 Rockets, Shaq/Kobe Lakers(well, at least '01 and '02), Kobe/Pau Lakers and '11 Mavs. Miami are also heavily favored this year, and they're arguably better offensively than they are defensively, though their defensive leads to a good amount of their offense, so that's kind of difficult to say.

There are others I'd say were roughly equal at both ends such as the 80's Celtics and 90's Bulls.

So I really don't see what their actually is to support this. Again, I think they're both half of the game and neither is more important than the other in general.
Defense wins Championships, it's a cliche but an accurate one at least.

I understand what you're saying. But if you're contender, you already have the enough offensive power. (firepower, passing, sets etc.) But there were more than just 1 contender most of the time and the defense is the decisive thing at that point.

Defense wins Championships, it's being said because defense is the decisive criteria most of the time and that makes defense is more important than offense.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bill Russell and his Celtics really did make this quote stand out. In terms of individuals, it's definitely offense that is more valued, unless there's an exception.

[ThaRegul8r]

Bill Russell and his Celtics really did make this quote stand out.

They're the reason it exists in the first place, as far as the NBA is concerned.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Defense wins Championships, it's a cliche but an accurate one at least.

I understand what you're saying. But if you're contender, you already have the enough offensive power. (firepower, passing, sets etc.) But there were more than just 1 contender most of the time and the defense is the decisive thing at that point.

Defense wins Championships, it's being said because defense is the decisive criteria most of the time and that makes defense is more important than offense.

I don't agree. There are plenty of contenders who defend as well, if not better in some cases than the actual champions. Early 00's Sixers, recent Bulls, post-'08 Celtics, 90's Knicks, 90's Heat.

It just seems to me that it's always pointed out more when an offensive team like the Suns doesn't win, but not when it's the other way around.

I maintain that if you look at the teams that have won, you'll see what I'm saying. Teams rarely win without being very good at both, and there's been a good amount of champions you could say are better offensively than defensively, or defensively than offensively, but almost do both well.

[Odinn]

I don't agree. There are plenty of contenders who defend as well, if not better in some cases than the actual champions. Early 00's Sixers, recent Bulls, post-'08 Celtics, 90's Knicks, 90's Heat.

It just seems to me that it's always pointed out more when an offensive team like the Suns doesn't win, but not when it's the other way around.

I maintain that if you look at the teams that have won, you'll see what I'm saying. Teams rarely win without being very good at both, and there's been a good amount of champions you could say are better offensively than defensively, or defensively than offensively, but almost do both well.
I agree in a way. But what I couldn't explain is;

In 2005 NBA Finals, the Spurs won because they were better offensively.
In 2008 NBA Finals, the Celtics won because they were better defensively.

If they are similar offensively, the dealbreaker is defense.
If they are similar defensively, the dealbreaker is offense.

And most of the time the contender teams are on similar level offensively and that makes the defense is the dealbreaker.


Let's put it this way;
A team, off rat 95 - def rat 85
B team, off rat 98 - def rat 78

A team, their offense is better than their defense. But they will won it all coz of what? Defense.

I'll say it again;
most of the time the contender teams are on similar level offensively

For example;
In 2009-10 season, the Lakers' offense was better than their defense and they won it all by playing defense.

So 'Defense wins Championships'.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I agree in a way. But what I couldn't explain is;

In 2005 NBA Finals, the Spurs won because they were better offensively.
In 2008 NBA Finals, the Celtics won because they were better defensively.

If they are similar offensively, the dealbreaker is defense.
If they are similar defensively, the dealbreaker is offense.

Doesn't that just suggest they're equally important as I said?

I'm glad you brought up the 2005 finals because the 2005 WCF is a series people have used as an example of defense wins championships.

Statistically, the Spurs were the best defensive team in the league and the 8th best offensive team in the league, while the Suns were the best offensive team, but in the bottom half defensively.

What you can take out of that is that the Spurs were the better, more well-rounded team. I remember them showing they could play with the Suns in their up-tempo style as well with Manu and Parker, but the Spurs strength was a slowed down game and they had a great post player in Duncan.

Really, this was a case of the Spurs not only being more well-rounded as far as offense and defense, but stylistically as well. They could go inside in a slower game, but also had the outside game and good shooters.

Now look at the next year, the Spurs have a very similar team and win 63 games. They were the best defensive team again, and the 10th best offense statistically. Meanwhile, Dallas was the best offensive team and the 11th best defensive team statistically, and they beat the Spurs in a very close 7 game series.


And most of the time the contender teams are on similar level offensively and that makes the defense is the dealbreaker.

I don't agree with that anymore than someone saying the contenders are on a similar level defensively most of the time.

Look at the 90's Knicks vs Bulls. The Knicks were the even better defensive team, but were not on the same level as the Bulls offensively, and lost those series.


Let's put it this way;
A team, off rat 95 - def rat 85
B team, off rat 98 - def rat 78

A team, their offense is better than their defense. But they will won it all coz of what? Defense.

I'd have to know the particular teams.


I'll say it again;
most of the time the contender teams are on similar level offensively

For example;
In 2009-10 season, the Lakers' offense was better than their defense and they won it all by playing defense.

So 'Defense wins Championships'.

I don't see how that suggests defense wins championships because I'd call the 2010 Celtics a better defensive team than the 2010 Lakers, yet they clearly weren't the offensive team LA was.

Then if you look at the 2009 Lakers, they beat a Magic team that was better defensively than they were.

I'm not arguing that one or the other is more important. But I see no evidence to suggest that defense is more important to winning a championship. Just looking at the teams that have actually won it. Those teams are almost always the team that balances both of them the best.

A lot of teams do one while sacrificing the other. Some teams will play a really ugly, slowed down game and put more of an emphasis on defenders and rebounders, but as a result, they can't score with the elite. While other teams will put small lineups out there and run and gun, which sacrifices defense and rebounding. Usually, neither type of team wins it all.

[nashwade]

Nash nearly took that Suns squad to the finals to play Cavs if they got past Spurs without those ill-fated suspensions

...I said nearly

And it is no secret that Suns' defense suck

So it is all about match ups. And beating 4 teams, that's all there is to it. Defense will help you win the championship but there are so many things in the mix: offense, talent, coaching, injuries

[grantz]

Agree with this completely. This to me is more evident in college ball where there's a bigger disparity with the quality of offense vs. the quality of defense.

I think there's a threshold where amazing defense can get you though.

Once in a while there is someone that wants it so bad and just manages get past the best individual defenders albeit with luck or skill, combination of both?

Those moments are pretty special.

Once in a generation you can find someone that can do that consistently.

[DatAsh]

So I really don't see what their actually is to support this. Again, I think they're both half of the game and neither is more important than the other in general.

I'm not saying that both aren't important, but there is data to suggest that all other things held constant, defense is more important.

Since Russell:

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

[SCdac]

Since Russell:

The best defensive team in the league has won the championship 21 times.
The best offensive team in the league has won the championship 9 times.

Of the teams that have won,
29 have been in the 90th percentile defensively.
17 have been in the 90th percentile offensively.

39 have been in the 80th percentile defensively.
20 have been in the 80th percentile offensively.

1 has been in the bottom 50% defensively.
14 have been in the bottom 50% offensively.

The worst defense in the league has never won a championship.
The worst offense in the league has won a championship 3 times.

And this is ultimately what Pop is referring to when he lists off most of the remaining teams in the playoffs, which, not so coincidently, happen to also be great defensive teams right now.

Of all people, Pop knows when the Spurs defense is not there, their chances of winning are not there. Even on their best offensive nights.

The current Bulls without Rose, which aren't contenders, are a perfect example of how far you can go with elite defense and without elite offense. They averaged 93 ppg in the regular season (29th worst), yet got past a Deron Willams-lead team :oldlol:

Another example of defense being the common denominator on virtually all championship squads is Dallas '11. You'd think on face value they're winning due to Dirk's/Terry's/Barea's scoring, which is partly true, but it's the defensive culture and grittiness that Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, and Kidd provided to the team that was the difference maker. Lebron had that epic collapse caused by their individual and zone D, but also Bosh shot horribly (.41 FG%) and had his worst rebounding series in the playoffs (7.3 rpg).

[SCdac]

Nash nearly took that Suns squad to the finals to play Cavs if they got past Spurs without those ill-fated suspensions

...I said nearly

And it is no secret that Suns' defense suck

So it is all about match ups. And beating 4 teams, that's all there is to it. Defense will help you win the championship but there are so many things in the mix: offense, talent, coaching, injuries

No, he didn't. :oldlol:

First off, they lost in the second round.... The following season, they lost to the Spurs in the first round.

Secondly, Amare put up 38 points while Nash had 14 assists in the 2007 elimination game. Despite that, and outscoring SAS in the fourth quarter, the Suns still lost by 8 points. They were not the better team, even at full health.

Spurs have beaten the Suns 4 times since 2003... and in the 2005 defeat, the Suns had the best and most exciting offense at the time, scoring 110 ppg (#1) on .48 FG% (#2).

Only time the Suns got past the Spurs in 2010 when Duncan had gotten older and Alvin Gentry had gotten his team to play a lick of D and with some poise.