LeBron vs Pippen

[K Xerxes]

Against my better judgement, I was watching First Take a couple of days ago, and I thought Stephen A Smith said something very interesting. (Naturally, it wasn't an opinion of his.)

"Apparently" (and I emphasise this), Scottie went up to Stephen A in one of the games and said something along the lines of (I can't remember the exact quote, so paraphrasing): "Jordan is without a doubt the greatest, but I can't deny what I'm seeing from LeBron. He's got thirty pounds on me, I don't think I could have guarded him'.

Now Scottie has said some questionable things about LeBron in the past, but I couldn't actually believe he said that. He is widely considered to be the greatest perimeter defender ever after all. Thoughts?

[LikeABosh]

I doubt Pippen would say something like that. He could probably guard Lebron as well as anyone in NBA history.

[Teanett]

lebron is a beast but pippen has never not guarded an opponent because of size.

[Bandito]

I don't know what would happen but I think Pippen is selling himself short here. From the 90's he's one of the few that could play him one on one and probably beat him.

[hitmanyr2k]

If Pippen said that then he's overrating the hell out of Lebron. Aside from his passing I think Lebron's offensive game is tailor-made for Pippen to slow down. The quicker players with explosive first steps like Grant Hill and Penny used to give Pippen trouble but Lebron has an average first step at best which is why he needs a screen and a head of steam to beat most defenders. Pippen has also defended bigger players (Barkley, Webber, Larry Johnson, etc) with post games 3x better and more refined than Lebron's mediocre post game.

[ripthekik]

not the first time pippen has thrown comments to worship lebron. He also thinks lebron is the GOAT :oldlol:

this guy stays salty because he'll forever be remembered as robin, so tries to prop up Lebron against MJ

[K Xerxes]

I don't know what would happen but I think Pippen is selling himself short here. From the 90's he's one of the few that could play him one on one and probably beat him.

I agree with the sentiment that Pippen is selling himself short here, but he isn't beating LeBron in a one on one. He could limit LeBron offensively, but LeBron has improved his perimeter shot immensely and is still the best finisher in the league.

[pauk]

One on One Lebron is just way to big/strong/fast/quick/explosive accompanied with great ballhandling he will keep blowing by or overpowering anybody standing in the way.... Not one man on this planet or this planets history could contain Lebron one on one... in a game he is not cautious / hesitant to attack on the man infront him but the multiple men behind that man doubling/traping/shading/headdiving in to flop charges etc.... one man infront of him will be just on a island by himself trying to guard the freight train coming at him.. a freight train that changes direction like a gazelle...

[K Xerxes]

If Pippen said that then he's overrating the hell out of Lebron. Aside from his passing I think Lebron's offensive game is tailor-made for Pippen to slow down. The quicker players with explosive first steps like Grant Hill and Penny used to give Pippen trouble but Lebron has an average first step at best which is why he needs a screen and a head of steam to beat most defenders. Pippen has also defended bigger players (Barkley, Webber, Larry Johnson, etc) with post games 3x better and more refined than Lebron's mediocre post game.

I agree with pretty much all of this. As LeBron has bulked himself up over the years, his first step has slowed down. He almost looks sluggish now when he starts to drive. Pippen has the speed to keep up with him.

Butler gave LeBron a lot of problems in this series. You can say that LeBron wasn't himself and his shot was inconsistent, but a lot of that was down to Butler and the way he prevented LeBron from getting into rhythm. And we're talking about Pippen here...

[Psycho]

One on One Lebron is just way to big/strong/fast/quick/explosive accompanied with great ballhandling he will keep blowing by or overpowering anybody standing in the way.... Not one man on this planet or this planets history could contain Lebron one on one... he is not cautious / hesitant to attack on the man infront him but the multiple men behind that man doubling/traping/shading/headdiving in to flop charges etc.... one man infront of him will be just on a island by himself trying to guard the freight train coming at him.. a freight train that changes direction like a gazelle

yes homo

Alright.

[Poetry]

LeBron averaged 23.6 on.438 (16 FGA) against Butler and the Bulls this post season, i think Pip would be fine.

[pauk]

LeBron averaged 23.6 on.438 (16 FGA) against Butler and the Bulls this post season, i think Pip would be fine.

:facepalm He was destroying Butler, overpowering him in the post or blowing by him... just like anybody who ever stood in his way.... but like i said, its only team defense (5 guys) that can contain Lebron... each time for example Lebron had an iso against Butler notice Noah/Boozer/Gibson in the paint or right behind zoning ready to trap Lebron or draw a charge or immediately sending help.... thats the ONLY thing Lebron looks at when he gets the ball offensively, how the TEAM defense will play him...

[ripthekik]

:facepalm He was destroying Butler, overpowering him in the post or blowing by him... just like anybody who ever stood in his way.... but like i said, its only team defense (5 guys) that can contain Lebron... each time for example Lebron had an iso against Butler notice Noah/Boozer/Gibson in the paint or right behind zoning ready to trap Lebron or draw a charge or immediately sending help.... thats the ONLY thing Lebron looks at when he gets the ball offensively, how the TEAM defense will play him...
:roll: :roll: :roll:
oh man, this is such a joy to read:oldlol:

[Poetry]

thats the ONLY thing Lebron looks at when he gets the ball offensively, how the TEAM defense will play him...

Maybe he should have been looking at the basket, he only shot .438 :basketball

[Mr Exlax]

I love Scottie, but I don't see him being able to stop Lebron. No single player is gonna stop him or even slow him down. It's always team defense that's gonna slow him. Lebron stopped paying attention to his main defender years ago. It's always the 4 other defenders that are ready and willing to leave their man to come over and double or triple team him once he gets past his primary defender. I guess haters will say otherwise. I'm just being honest and unbiased.

[dh144498]

Maybe he should have been looking at the basket, he only shot .438 :basketball

:lol

[Magic 32]

:facepalm He was destroying Butler, overpowering him in the post or blowing by him... just like anybody who ever stood in his way.... but like i said, its only team defense (5 guys) that can contain Lebron... each time for example Lebron had an iso against Butler notice Noah/Boozer/Gibson in the paint or right behind zoning ready to trap Lebron or draw a charge or immediately sending help.... thats the ONLY thing Lebron looks at when he gets the ball offensively, how the TEAM defense will play him...

http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2013/05/13/23/41/1t91iq.Em.56.jpeg

[pauk]

Maybe he should have been looking at the basket, he only shot .438 :basketball

He should only win the game... thats the better choice...

[Haks]

:facepalm He was destroying Butler, overpowering him in the post or blowing by him... just like anybody who ever stood in his way.... but like i said, its only team defense (5 guys) that can contain Lebron... each time for example Lebron had an iso against Butler notice Noah/Boozer/Gibson in the paint or right behind zoning ready to trap Lebron or draw a charge or immediately sending help.... thats the ONLY thing Lebron looks at when he gets the ball offensively, how the TEAM defense will play him...
LMAO 'destroyed Butler'

[Poetry]

Most of the all-time greats require more than just single coverage, but as long as you have a good base defender on them (with the team supporting him), those all-time greats can be managed to a degree.

I don't think anyone can say LeBron "was destroying Butler, overpowering him." It's a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, LeBron found the best way to utilize his teammates to get the victory, but he wasn't exactly dominating.

"Destroying" and "Overpowering" are not words we think of when one has a personally subpar offensive series.

However, i do think he was the most important player in the series, but you would have to be deluded to think he dominated Butler. Butler played him well.

[hitmanyr2k]

I love Scottie, but I don't see him being able to stop Lebron. No single player is gonna stop him or even slow him down. It's always team defense that's gonna slow him. Lebron stopped paying attention to his main defender years ago. It's always the 4 other defenders that are ready and willing to leave their man to come over and double or triple team him once he gets past his primary defender. I guess haters will say otherwise. I'm just being honest and unbiased.

What NBA star doesn't have to deal with team defense? :confusedshrug: The thing about Lebron is aside from passing to a 3 point shooter he doesn't have creativity in his game to beat great team defense...especially if that jumper isn't falling. When the Bulls elected to stop doubling and let Jimmy Butler take him one on one he clearly had trouble scoring on Butler unless they screened him to death. And for the weight advantage Lebron had on Butler he still couldn't score on him in the post because Lebron really has no moves on the low block other than a fadeaway. And just about every time Butler crowded Lebron and forced him to go left it resulted in a bad miss.

[Solefade]

I don't think there's anyone that can stop LeBron 1v1, you can only slow him down at best. We've never seen any sort of athlete that big, with that kind of speed and skills.

[The Real JW]

Artest and Butler can do it, so can Pippen.

[Solefade]

What NBA star doesn't have to deal with team defense? :confusedshrug: The thing about Lebron is aside from passing to a 3 point shooter he doesn't have creativity in his game to beat great team defense...especially if that jumper isn't falling. When the Bulls elected to stop doubling and let Jimmy Butler take him one on one he clearly had trouble scoring on Butler unless they screened him to death. And for the weight advantage Lebron had on Butler he still couldn't score on him in the post because Lebron really has no moves on the low block other than a fadeaway. And just about every time Butler crowded Lebron and forced him to go left it resulted in a bad miss.


It doesn't really matter if he doesn't have creative moves in the post or not because he's so much stronger than everyone else anyway. If a big guy guards him, he'll go by him or get a good open jump shot. LeBron will either get a 1v1 in the post or someone will get open from it. Pick your poison.

[chosen_wun]

Artest and Butler can do it, so can Pippen.
Pretty much.

The only thing is that LeBron will always get his 8 boards, 8 assists no matter what.

[pauk]

LMAO 'destroyed Butler'

Did you even watch the series? There is absolutely nothing Lebron couldnt do against him.... nothing at all... he either posted him up and backed him down all the way towards the rim which forced the Bulls to constantly trap/double team him forcing the ball out of his hands right into wideopen shooters all night long or he faced up and blew by/overpowered him on the drive which forced Butler to foul often... the stuff he couldnt do against him is only because of those other guys BEHIND him...

Lebron or Durant or Carmelo or Kobe or Wade or Rose or Westbrook or whatever NEVER care about the guy infront.... defenders have absolutely zero chance of stopping them from getting to the rim..... they get the ball and look BEHIND that guy to see the incoming double/triple team or trap, only those 4 other guys decide ... in that situation they either settle for a jumpshot or a move the ball or in Lebrons case attack anyways to intentionally bait the trap/help to kickout to a wideopen shooter....

[pauk]

Artest and Butler can do it, so can Pippen.

When has Artest EVER had his way against Lebron? This is what you see every single time those two play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycapVJIFJSI
Ron Artest especially today is treated like a ragdoll by Lebron....

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lebron is at the level where you can't necessarily guard him anymore. You may contain him one night, but he's too good to be able to expect anyone to do that consistently. And if Pippen actually did say that, he has a valid point, and it shows that it's not necessarily the best defender who stands the best chance, it comes down to match ups make the fight, and Lebron being so much stronger and heavier could be a factor.

[97 bulls]

Did you even watch the series? There is absolutely nothing Lebron couldnt do against him.... nothing at all... he either posted him up and backed him down all the way towards the rim which forced the Bulls to constantly trap/double team him forcing the ball out of his hands right into wideopen shooters all night long or he faced up and blew by/overpowered him on the drive which forced Butler to foul often...

Lebron or Durant or Carmelo or Kobe or Wade or Rose or Westbrook or whatever NEVER care about the guy infront.... defenders have absolutely zero chance of stopping them from getting to the rim..... they get the ball and look BEHIND that guy to see the incoming double/triple team or trap... in that situation they either settle for a jumpshot or a move the ball or in Lebrons case attack anyways to intentionally bait the trap/help to kickout to a wideopen shooter....
I find it very interesting that you call LeBron s subpar performance against the Bulls as a team effort (which is true to a degree) but then give James full credit for Derrick Rose performance in 2011. Even though that was a team effort.

[Mr Exlax]

What NBA star doesn't have to deal with team defense? :confusedshrug: The thing about Lebron is aside from passing to a 3 point shooter he doesn't have creativity in his game to beat great team defense...especially if that jumper isn't falling. When the Bulls elected to stop doubling and let Jimmy Butler take him one on one he clearly had trouble scoring on Butler unless they screened him to death. And for the weight advantage Lebron had on Butler he still couldn't score on him in the post because Lebron really has no moves on the low block other than a fadeaway. And just about every time Butler crowded Lebron and forced him to go left it resulted in a bad miss.

The thing about it is that Butler didn't singlehandedly force Lebron to do anything. Look at the way the defense shifted every time Lebron got the ball. They didn't double him as soon as he got the ball, but once he made it past his primary defender they were ready. They switched to a zone every time. The only thing he could do was pass to an open man. That's the correct basketball play. Why force a contested jumper when you have a wise open 3pt shooter?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I love Scottie, but I don't see him being able to stop Lebron. No single player is gonna stop him or even slow him down. It's always team defense that's gonna slow him. Lebron stopped paying attention to his main defender years ago. It's always the 4 other defenders that are ready and willing to leave their man to come over and double or triple team him once he gets past his primary defender. I guess haters will say otherwise. I'm just being honest and unbiased.

You're a Lebron fan though, so it's not really about being "unbiased".

[SamuraiSWISH]

If Pippen said that then he's overrating the hell out of Lebron. Aside from his passing I think Lebron's offensive game is tailor-made for Pippen to slow down. The quicker players with explosive first steps like Grant Hill and Penny used to give Pippen trouble but Lebron has an average first step at best which is why he needs a screen and a head of steam to beat most defenders. Pippen has also defended bigger players (Barkley, Webber, Larry Johnson, etc) with post games 3x better and more refined than Lebron's mediocre post game.
This

[SamuraiSWISH]

I find it very interesting that you call LeBron s subpar performance against the Bulls as a team effort (which is true to a degree) but then give James full credit for Derrick Rose performance in 2011. Even though that was a team effort.
And this ...

[kNicKz]

One on One Lebron is just way to big/strong/fast/quick/explosive accompanied with great ballhandling he will keep blowing by or overpowering anybody standing in the way.... Not one man on this planet or this planets history could contain Lebron one on one...

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Kidd+Dallas+Mavericks+v+Miami+Heat+Game+GF_U nHLBPPAl.jpg

Alcatraz Lock Down

38 year old point guard :roll:

[Mr Exlax]

You're a Lebron fan though, so it's not really about being "unbiased".
I'm a fan of basketball there killer. If Lebron died tomorrow I'd still tune in. I guess it's my age or something. I appreciate his talents as well as any other player.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The thing about Lebron is aside from passing to a 3 point shooter he doesn't have creativity in his game to beat great team defense...especially if that jumper isn't falling. When the Bulls elected to stop doubling and let Jimmy Butler take him one on one he clearly had trouble scoring on Butler unless they screened him to death. And for the weight advantage Lebron had on Butler he still couldn't score on him in the post because Lebron really has no moves on the low block other than a fadeaway. And just about every time Butler crowded Lebron and forced him to go left it resulted in a bad miss.
And we know pauk won't address this

[Mr Exlax]

:applause:
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Kidd+Dallas+Mavericks+v+Miami+Heat+Game+GF_U nHLBPPAl.jpg

Alcatraz Lock Down

38 year old point guard :roll:

Don't forget about Tyson Chandler on the other side waiting lol. They shut LBJ down though. That was one of the beet defensive schemes I had ever seen. they knew his weakness and pounced on it. That's some great coaching. Really smart they only did it in the 4th quarters where Spolestra didn't have time to adjust the offense and Lebron couldn't figure it out.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I like how Pauk is trying to spin 23 ppg/44% FG as "domination." :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Don't forget about Tyson Chandler on the other side waiting lol.
Had nothing to do with it ...

He couldn't get past his man defender (Kidd, Marion, Stephenson)

[chosen_wun]

I like how Pauk is trying to spin 23 ppg/44% FG as "domination." :oldlol:
That guy is in over his head.

We all watched the games live and saw Lebron struggle. Pauk is wasting his time. He should at least wait the obligatory 2 years before spin doctoring a sports story.

[pauk]

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Kidd+Dallas+Mavericks+v+Miami+Heat+Game+GF_U nHLBPPAl.jpg

Alcatraz Lock Down

38 year old point guard :roll:

Yes... im sure Jason Kidd, JJ Barea and Jason Terrys individual one on one defense contained Lebron.... and not those other 4 guys Tyson Chandlers, Shawn Marions help/traps/double-triple teams waiting right next to/behind those poor fellas trying to guard Lebron one on one....

Zoom out from that picture and this is what you usually see:

http://hoopchalkdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/lebron-good.png

[kNicKz]

Lebron got locked up by Jason Kidd on something serious

holy shit

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Edit: he's posting screenshots from games against the Orlando Magic

Fail. thread is over kids

[Ne 1]

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jason+Kidd+Dallas+Mavericks+v+Miami+Heat+Game+GF_U nHLBPPAl.jpg

Alcatraz Lock Down

38 year old point guard :roll:

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0903/nba_g_bowen_600.jpg

[pegasus]

I love it when pauk knows his talking shit out of his ass but can't stop typing.:lol

[97 bulls]

I also feel its interesting that when offense is being compared to defense, the defense is downgraded to being a "team effort". The same rule applies to offense as well. Its very rare for an offensive player to go legitimately 1 v 1 against a single defender. The problem is we acknowledge that more often than not the defender recieves help, but fail to mention the help the offensive player gets. What about the picks? Spot up shooters? Which makes a player have to think twice about leaving his man. Then you must box out in an effort to keep the offense from getting an offensive rebound.

Both sides recieve plenty if support

[ShaqAttack3234]

I also feel its interesting that when offense is being compared to defense, the defense is downgraded to being a "team effort". The same rule applies to offense as well. Its very rare for an offensive player to go legitimately 1 v 1 against a single defender. The problem is we acknowledge that more often than not the defender recieves help, but fail to mention the help the offensive player gets. What about the picks? Spot up shooters? Which makes a player have to think twice about leaving his man. Then you must box out in an effort to keep the offense from getting an offensive rebound.

Both sides recieve plenty if support

True to some extent(though post ups and isos don't require any special assistance from a teammate other than making a simple pass) but a difference is that the dominant offensive players can score virtually whenever they want, while they can't consistently be stopped 1 on 1.

[FKAri]

One on One Lebron is just way to big/strong/fast/quick/explosive accompanied with great ballhandling he will keep blowing by or overpowering anybody standing in the way.... Not one man on this planet or this planets history could contain Lebron one on one... in a game he is not cautious / hesitant to attack on the man infront him but the multiple men behind that man doubling/traping/shading/headdiving in to flop charges etc.... one man infront of him will be just on a island by himself trying to guard the freight train coming at him.. a freight train that changes direction like a gazelle...

How would you or anyone know that? More hyperbole from pauk lol.

[AlphaWolf24]

One on One Lebron is just way to big/strong/fast/quick/explosive accompanied with great ballhandling he will keep blowing by or overpowering anybody standing in the way.... Not one man on this planet or this planets history could contain Lebron one on one... in a game he is not cautious / hesitant to attack on the man infront him but the multiple men behind that man doubling/traping/shading/headdiving in to flop charges etc.... one man infront of him will be just on a island by himself trying to guard the freight train coming at him.. a freight train that changes direction like a gazelle...


- if old azz laterall deficient Kobe Bryant can absolutley lock up Lebron in crunchtime of an allstar game ( when all the players are trying thier best)

- No doubt Pip could lock up Lebron for most of the game....Pip was so darn long


dead serial.....yay

[Poetry]

I love it when pauk knows his talking shit out of his ass but can't stop typing.:lol

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8odt6MAdV1r5ljt4.gif

[97 bulls]

True to some extent(though post ups and isos don't require any special assistance from a teammate other than making a simple pass) but a difference is that the dominant offensive players can score virtually whenever they want, while they can't consistently be stopped 1 on 1.
How is this true? An efficient fg% in the nba is considered anywhere between 46-50. That means MORE OFTEN THAN NOT THE DEFENSE WINS THE POSSESSION. and thats not counting the pts players get on fastbreaks. Which is a result of defense.

[Solefade]

- if old azz laterall deficient Kobe Bryant can absolutley lock up Lebron in crunchtime of an allstar game ( when all the players are trying thier best)

- No doubt Pip could lock up Lebron for most of the game....Pip was so darn long


dead serial.....yay

Did you seriously just mention an all-star game? The ****?

[ShaqAttack3234]

How is this true? An efficient fg% in the nba is considered anywhere between 46-50. That means MORE OFTEN THAN NOT THE DEFENSE WINS THE POSSESSION. and thats not counting the pts players get on fastbreaks. Which is a result of defense.

:facepalm

I said a DOMINANT scorer. These players rarely see single coverage for the majority of a game. With these types of players, if you guard them 1 on 1 for most of the game, they'll likely have a great game.

And this is also while these players play within their team's offense(though to varying degrees depending on the player and system) Which is different then these players trying to get their preferred shot every time.

[AlphaWolf24]

Did you seriously just mention an all-star game? The ****?


- Don't even make me go there son....

- That crunchtime in the allstar game was real.....LBJ doin his " lowering his shoulder" moves.... the "Kobe face!"

- You don't know the laws of the jungle......Nature is a cruel beast.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm

I said a DOMINANT scorer. These players rarely see single coverage for the majority of a game. With these types of players, if you guard them 1 on 1 for most of the game, they'll likely have a great game.

And this is also while these players play within their team's offense(though to varying degrees depending on the player and system) Which is different then these players trying to get their preferred shot every time.
Again. I disagree. If you pit a dominant scorer vs a great man defender, its not gonna automatically favor the offensive player. If they were to play one on one, and every time the offensive player missed, the defender recieves a point, im rolling with the defender.

[AlphaWolf24]

One on One Lebron is just way to big/strong/fast/quick/explosive accompanied with great ballhandling he will keep blowing by or overpowering anybody standing in the way.... Not one man on this planet or this planets history could contain Lebron one on one - Pauk


confirmed Nate Robinson is the P4P strongest athlete in planet history!!

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2632543/natetorpedo.gif

[AlphaWolf24]

Again. I disagree. If you pit a dominant scorer vs a great man defender, its not gonna automatically favor the offensive player. If they were to play one on one, and every time the offensive player missed, the defender recieves a point, im rolling with the defender.


- especially if you use a 3 sec rule....

- keep any dominant scorer out of the paint.....and they will miss a shot well over 50% of the time.......some won't even make 1

[dh144498]

confirmed Nate Robinson is the P4P strongest athlete in planet history!!

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2632543/natetorpedo.gif

:lol
:applause:

[305Baller]

LeBron all day. Not even close.

[Bandito]

I agree with the sentiment that Pippen is selling himself short here, but he isn't beating LeBron in a one on one. He could limit LeBron offensively, but LeBron has improved his perimeter shot immensely and is still the best finisher in the league.
That's why I say probably and not certainly. I give it like 1 out of 5 games.

[DatAsh]

:facepalm at Lebron destroying Butler. I thought Butler actually played him really well, and it showed; Lebron had a fairly poor series overall.

As far Pippen on Lebron, I think Pippen would probably do as well as anyone. I actually see Lebron's added weight as a negative. I think younger Lebron would give Pippen more trouble on the perimeter when that quicker first step. I would see Lebron's extra weight as more of advantage if he had a better post game.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Again. I disagree. If you pit a dominant scorer vs a great man defender, its not gonna automatically favor the offensive player. If they were to play one on one, and every time the offensive player missed, the defender recieves a point, im rolling with the defender.

Again, what's your definition of dominant? Would you make this bet with Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, McHale or Lebron? Those players shot over 50% during their primes anyway so I don't see a way you could argue that if they were to receive single coverage exclusively.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I actually see Lebron's added weight as a negative. I think younger Lebron would give Pippen more trouble on the perimeter when that quicker first step. I would see Lebron's extra weight as more of advantage if he had a better post game.
This man knows his basketball ...

LMAO @ LeBron "dominating" w/ 23 ppg on 43 FG%. Butler did a damn fine job on him in ISO situations. Actually kind of locked him up to be honest.

I actually think Butler is the best man defender of LeBron that I've ever seen. He's strong, and obviously quicker than LeBron laterally, which negated his dribble penetration and made Bron rely exclusively on picks.

[97 bulls]

Again, what's your definition of dominant? Would you make this bet with Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, McHale or Lebron? Those players shot over 50% during their primes anyway so I don't see a way you could argue that if they were to receive single coverage exclusively.
I thought we were referring to perimeter players exclusively. Jordan and James shoot over 50%, but 2-3 of their FG come as a result of fastbreak dunks and layups in transition. Often more.

Even a case can be made for dominant bigs. Most of their attempts come within 5-7 feet from the goal. Take away the defender and theyre easily making 100% of their attemps. But with a defender on them, their makes is cut in almost half. The notion that iso offense is gonna trump man defense more often than not is folly.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This man knows his basketball ...

LMAO @ LeBron "dominating" w/ 23 ppg on 43 FG%. Butler did a damn fine job on him in ISO situations. Actually kind of locked him up to be honest.

I actually think Butler is the best man defender of LeBron that I've ever seen. He's strong, and obviously quicker than LeBron laterally, which negated his dribble penetration and made Bron rely exclusively on picks.

I think slimmer Lebron was considerably easier to guard in general because he was a mediocre shooter. Look at what Bowen and the '07 Spurs did, pretty much forcing Lebron to be a jump shooter. Scottie is smart and I think he'd recognize that. Lebron's jumper was off during the Bulls series(and Butler certainly deserves a lot of credit for making it tougher on him and disrupting his rhythm) but I don't think you can rely on current Lebron missing as many jumpers as he did.


I thought we were referring to perimeter players exclusively. Jordan and James shoot over 50%, but 2-3 of their FG come as a result of fastbreak dunks and layups in transition. Often more.

Even a case can be made for dominant bigs. Most of their attempts come within 5-7 feet from the goal. Take away the defender and theyre easily making 100% of their attemps. But with a defender on them, their makes is cut in almost half. The notion that iso offense is gonna trump man defense more often than not is folly.

Well, big men like Kareem, Shaq, McHale, Hakeem can close regularly, so I don't see why it matters where they shoot from. If you allowed those guys to be guarded 1 on 1 consistently, there's almost no chance they wouldn't drop 35-40 on 60% or so.

2/3 of Lebron and Jordan's FG come in transition? :wtf: That's not true. Lebron has gotten a lot of transition opportunities the last 2 years, I'll give you that, but that has to be an exaggeration.

Regarding Jordan, you don't think that if he's not doubled for an entire game that he's not shooting over 50%? I'd bet on 40-50 points while easily exceeding 50% most of the time in that scenario.

And again, I'm not talking about just good scorers, or really good scorers. I mean dominant.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I thought we were referring to perimeter players exclusively. Jordan and James shoot over 50%, but 2-3 of their FG come as a result of fastbreak dunks and layups in transition. Often more.
Did you even watch the team you claim to be a fan of ...

Jordan scored the vast majority of his points on mid range jumpers, particularly off ISOs with just him and his defender (sometimes two or three) ... which means he's probably the best 1 v 1 player of all-time. A majority of LeBron's points come off run outs, transition dunks, and pick and roll with a head of steam on the next layer of defense.

50% FG percentage shouldn't be the barometer of a player like Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, D-Robinson or other superstar big men. 50% to me would be average considering their size and location to the basket. I feel like they should shoot 65+% from the field to be considered efficient.

[dh144498]

Did you even watch the team you claim to be a fan of ...

Jordan scored the vast majority of his points on mid range jumpers, particularly off ISOs with just him and his defender (sometimes two or three) ... which means he's probably the best 1 v 1 player of all-time. A majority of LeBron's points come off run outs, transition dunks, and pick and roll with a head of steam on the next layer of defense.

50% FG percentage shouldn't be the barometer of a player like Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, D-Robinson or other superstar big men. 50% to me would be average considering their size and location to the basket. I feel like they should shoot 65+% from the field to be considered efficient.


65% is pushing it. Defense gets tougher the more inside you are. I'd say 58% is pretty efficient for a big.

[SamuraiSWISH]

65% is pushing it. Defense gets tougher the more inside you are. I'd say 58% is pretty efficient for a big.
Still, you get the idea. If 50% is fantastic for a guard or wing player, big men should be held to a higher standard for FG percentage given they play MUCH closer to the rim. Sure they get extra help defenders swarming them, but if they know how to pass out of double teams it negates that and they can quickly re-position for easy scoring opportunities. Let's say 60% should be the barometer for big men FG %.

[97 bulls]

I think slimmer Lebron was considerably easier to guard in general because he was a mediocre shooter. Look at what Bowen and the '07 Spurs did, pretty much forcing Lebron to be a jump shooter. Scottie is smart and I think he'd recognize that. Lebron's jumper was off during the Bulls series(and Butler certainly deserves a lot of credit for making it tougher on him and disrupting his rhythm) but I don't think you can rely on current Lebron missing as many jumpers as he did.



Well, big men like Kareem, Shaq, McHale, Hakeem can close regularly, so I don't see why it matters where they shoot from. If you allowed those guys to be guarded 1 on 1 consistently, there's almost no chance they wouldn't drop 35-40 on 60% or so.
It matters because the farther away from the basket those dominant bigs find themsekves, the lower their fg% become. Theyre not shooting 55-60 percent on jumpers.


2/3 of Lebron and Jordan's FG come in transition? :wtf: That's not true. Lebron has gotten a lot of transition opportunities the last 2 years, I'll give you that, but that has to be an exaggeration.
Lol so are you implying James scores almost strictly in the halfcourt? The Heats strength is transition.


Regarding Jordan, you don't think that if he's not doubled for an entire game that he's not shooting over 50%? I'd bet on 40-50 points while easily exceeding 50% most of the time in that scenario.
Id agree. But hes an extreme case. Hes the best ever.

And again, I'm not talking about just good scorers, or really good scorers. I mean dominant.
I know what you mean. Im just saying the notion that great offense trumps great defense on a consistent basis is just wrong.

[dh144498]

Still, you get the idea. If 50% is fantastic for a guard or wing player, big men should be held to a higher standard for FG percentage given they play MUCH closer to the rim. Sure they get extra help defenders swarming them, but if they know how to pass out of double teams it negates that and they can quickly re-position for easy scoring opportunities. Let's say 60% should be the barometer for big men FG %.

yes. Too bad alot of people nowadays are too caught up in just the numbers while completely ignoring the processes in which they got those numbers.

[97 bulls]

Did you even watch the team you claim to be a fan of ...

Jordan scored the vast majority of his points on mid range jumpers, particularly off ISOs with just him and his defender (sometimes two or three) ... which means he's probably the best 1 v 1 player of all-time. A majority of LeBron's points come off run outs, transition dunks, and pick and roll with a head of steam on the next layer of defense.

50% FG percentage shouldn't be the barometer of a player like Shaq, Duncan, Ewing, D-Robinson or other superstar big men. 50% to me would be average considering their size and location to the basket. I feel like they should shoot 65+% from the field to be considered efficient.
I agree Swooshh. I Just wouldnt call 2-3 dunks/layups out of about 13 fg a huge amount. But mathematically, if a player takes 10 shots, the difference between 40 and 50% is one basket. So those 2-3 layups or dunks those players get out of roughly 12 makes isnt alot, but it would show up huge in %s.

[SamuraiSWISH]

yes. Too bad alot of people nowadays are too caught up in just the numbers while completely ignoring the processes in which they got those numbers.
Which is why I wasn't overly impressed with LeBron's February FG% ... he cherry picked a lot of shots, had significant help from Wade who was balling. It wasn't like he was tearing it up on a FG hot streak on jumpers, putting up major volume scoring numbers.

I think it was one of the most overrated streaks in recent memory. He was totally visibly protecting those percentages at times, too. Which isn't the most altruistic competitive shot selection with just getting buckets or keeping the ultimate win in mind.

[97 bulls]

yes. Too bad alot of people nowadays are too caught up in just the numbers while completely ignoring the processes in which they got those numbers.
Exactly.

[dh144498]

Which is why I wasn't overly impressed with LeBron's February FG% ... he cherry picked a lot of shots, had significant help from Wade who was balling. It wasn't like he was tearing it up on a FG hot streak on jumpers, putting up major volume scoring numbers. I think it was one of the most overrated streaks in recent memory. He was totally visibly protecting those percentages at times, too. Which isn't the most altruistic competitive shot selection with just getting buckets or keeping the ultimate win in mind.

uh oh. You are gonna get hammered for this. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Still, you get the idea. If 50% is fantastic for a guard or wing player, big men should be held to a higher standard for FG percentage given they play MUCH closer to the rim. Sure they get extra help defenders swarming them, but if they know how to pass out of double teams it negates that and they can quickly re-position for easy scoring opportunities. Let's say 60% should be the barometer for big men FG %.

60% is still high.

For example, look at the players you used as examples. Prime David Robinson was a 26 ppg/51% player, prime Duncan was a 23 ppg/50% player, prime Ewing was a 26 ppg/52% player and prime Shaq was a 28 ppg/58% player.

Throw prime Hakeem in there and he was a 27 ppg/52% player.


It matters because the farther away from the basket those dominant bigs find themsekves, the lower their fg% become. Theyre not shooting 55-60 percent on jumpers.

Which is why Shaq and Kareem were pretty much exclusively post players.


Lol so are you implying James scores almost strictly in the halfcourt? The Heats strength is transition.

How did you get that out of my reply? I acknowledged that Lebron scores a lot in transition. I just doubted that anywhere near 2/3 of his FG came in transition.


I know what you mean. Im just saying the notion that great offense trumps great defense on a consistent basis is just wrong.

I don't like making generalizations like that in general. I think it depends too much on how the players match up and how dominant each are.

[97 bulls]

Which is why I wasn't overly impressed with LeBron's February FG% ... he cherry picked a lot of shots, had significant help from Wade who was balling. It wasn't like he was tearing it up on a FG hot streak on jumpers, putting up major volume scoring numbers.

I think it was one of the most overrated streaks in recent memory. He was totally visibly protecting those percentages at times, too. Which isn't the most altruistic competitive shot selection with just getting buckets or keeping the ultimate win in mind.
Again, very true

[SamuraiSWISH]

uh oh. You are gonna get hammered for this. :oldlol:
It's my honest opinion. Truth hurts sometimes. But those same LeBron stans who overly critique Kobe for gunning for volume scoring numbers at the expense of his efficiency, LeBron committed essentially the same selfish agenda but the opposite extreme.

LeBron was protecting FG% at the expense of shots when he was hot, or make able shots that could help culminate in a win or a LEGITIMATE high scoring / high percentage hot streak that didn't seem contrived or protected.

I like high scoring games, or high efficiency games when it comes about ORGANICALLY. Taking the best shots possible while trying to win the game. Not accomplishing mini feats in a game that only reflect personal agendas IE Kobe scoring as much as he wants to ... or LeBron and Wade's little FG% protection competition.

[hitmanyr2k]

uh oh. You are gonna get hammered for this. :oldlol:

No reason for him to get hammered when it's true.

[chosen_wun]

LeBron did protect his field goal for some of the streak, but you are leaving out the part were he started chucking threes near the end of that OKC game back in March (?)

He willingly ended the streak himself to prove that he didn't care as much as the media did.

[chosen_wun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaPPv8wZ_YE

^^^ Clearly protecting his field goal in this clip.

0:40 ...I trust Durant's judgement with video proof.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron did protect his field goal for some of the streak, but you are leaving out the part were he started chucking threes near the end of that OKC game back in March (?)
Not so ironically, that was his actual BEST game of the entire streak and most impressive.

When he said to hell with the FG protection, played the game the right, natural, organic way ... he had his most proving performance. Hitting shots, that he should be taking v.s. OKC when no one else was getting things done. And he out played Durant and shined as the best player in the game.

He played with that game 6 mentality. When LeBron plays "fukk it" I want to win mode, and does things naturally without being too self aware of stupid shit like FG% WHILE IN GAME ... he is easily right there with MJ as the best player I've ever seen.

Problem is his mentality. He rarely plays like this .... that game on the road in OKC was his only truly impressive game of that entire February streak that got so over hyped and overrated.

[aburre21]

you guys don't watch basketball man. Jimmy Butler is a good defender but I actually think Mbah a Moute guarded Lebron much better 1 on 1. Lebron blew by Butler on several occasions and threw him around in the post but help defenders came over and blocked or altered his shot. The Bulls defense is just way more solid defensively than the Bucks (credit Thibodeau). Jimmy Butler cannot guard Lebron 1 on 1 at all. On the other hand, I can't recall a single time that Bron blew by Mbah a Moute plus he's strong so Bron struggled when he tried to post against him. There's two guys that I think can legitimately lock down Bron, Tony Allen and Mbah a Moute, nobody else can. If he gets hot he can score on anyone though

[SamuraiSWISH]

you guys don't watch basketball man. Jimmy Butler is a good defender but I actually think Mbah a Moute guarded Lebron much better 1 on 1. Lebron blew by Butler on several occasions and threw him around in the post but help defenders came over and blocked or altered his shot. The Bulls defense is just way more solid defensively than the Bucks (credit Thibodeau). Jimmy Butler cannot guard Lebron 1 on 1 at all. On the other hand, I can't recall a single time that Bron blew by Mbah a Moute plus he's strong so Bron struggled when he tried to post against him. There's two guys that I think can legitimately lock down Bron, Tony Allen and Mbah a Moute, nobody else can. If he gets hot he can score on anyone though
Hello pauk ... you crazy obsessive asshole.

[chosen_wun]

Not so ironically, that was his actual BEST game of the entire streak and most impressive.

When he said to hell with the FG protection, played the game the right, natural, organic way ... he had his most proving performance. Hitting shots, that he should be taking v.s. OKC when no one else was getting things done. And he out played Durant and shined as the best player in the game.

He played with that game 6 mentality. When LeBron plays "fukk it" I want to win mode, and does things naturally without being too self aware of stupid shit like FG% WHILE IN GAME ... he is easily right there with MJ as the best player I've ever seen.

Problem is his mentality. He rarely plays like this .... that game on the road in OKC was his only truly impressive game of that entire February streak that got so over hyped and overrated.
He came into the league playing carefree basketball, but around the post-decision time frame he started having more contrived performances. Like he was playing within boundaries to produce the best possible percentages. Durant is guilty of this too.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He came into the league playing carefree basketball, but around the post-decision time frame he started having more contrived performances. Like he was playing within boundaries to produce the best possible percentages. Durant is guilty of this too.
There is middle ground though between carefree loosey goosey ball, and overly contrived / self aware performances. Just play the best possible way to win games ...

LeBron worries too god damn much about what other people write and/or say about him. It comes at the expense of his own game.

[aburre21]

Hello pauk ... you crazy obsessive asshole.
what? Pauk? :roll:





I'm a 21 year old black dude from the N.O. :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

what? Pauk?
Sure you are pauk ... we don't believe you ... you need more PEOPLE (usernames)

You've done this for your entire duration on ISH. Create usernames to agree with yourself, literally VERBATIM.

No one here not named pauk claimed LeBron was abusing, and throwing around Jimmy Butler like a rag doll.

He actually played pretty good lock down defense on him in ISO situations. So much so that LeBron was basically relying exclusively on pick and rolls. I watched the game pauk. Stop covering for your man crush.

23 ppg on 43% is domination, right? Bwahaha

[DatAsh]

what? Pauk? :roll:





I'm a 21 year old black dude from the N.O. :lol

and?

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think slimmer Lebron was considerably easier to guard in general because he was a mediocre shooter.
Right, because he couldn't shoot yet. You take that same slimmer LeBron, and give him his post 2009 jumper and it's no contest. All the more reason for him to slim down to the weight and body shape he was at from 2006 / 2007 / 2008 when he more streamlined.

[Trollsmasher]

Right, because he couldn't shoot yet. You take that same slimmer LeBron, and give him his post 2009 jumper and it's no contest. All the more reason for him to slim down to the weight and body shape he was at from 2006 / 2007 / 2008 when he more streamlined.
He already weighs good 15 lbs less than in his 1st year in MIA. He is barely 250 today in my opinion.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He already weighs good 15 lbs less than in his 1st year in MIA. He is barely 250 today in my opinion.

That's not true at all. He was already 245 at the '03 draft camp. He hasn't seen 250 since 2006 at the latest. And he looks as big as he ever has right now. He definitely hasn't lost 15 pounds, which would be a real noticeable difference. That's roughly the difference between rookie Lebron and 2008 Lebron.

In reality, he's been in the 265-270 range the past 5 seasons.


Right, because he couldn't shoot yet. You take that same slimmer LeBron, and give him his post 2009 jumper and it's no contest. All the more reason for him to slim down to the weight and body shape he was at from 2006 / 2007 / 2008 when he more streamlined.

Well, getting down to 2006 weight would be too much, imo, but 2008 weight would probably be perfect, especially as he ages. he'd still be big enough that he'd remain the best at finishing with contact(which is the biggest advantage of his size)

[Trollsmasher]

That's not true at all. He was already 245 at the '03 draft camp. He hasn't seen 250 since 2006 at the latest. And he looks as big as he ever has right now. He definitely hasn't lost 15 pounds, which would be a real noticeable difference. That's roughly the difference between rookie Lebron and 2008 Lebron.

In reality, he's been in the 265-270 range the past 5 seasons.



Well, getting down to 2006 weight would be too much, imo, but 2008 weight would probably be perfect, especially as he ages. he'd still be big enough that he'd remain the best at finishing with contact(which is the biggest advantage of his size)
He is definitely slimmer today than he was in 2011. He would have to weigh close to 280 back then for him to be 265 today.
Of course there is possibility that he was simply overweight and just looked chubby with fat (which would also the reason for him being really slow and unexplosive that year) and turned it into muscle later.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He is definitely slimmer today than he was in 2011. He would have to weigh close to 280 back then for him to be 265 today.
Of course there is possibility that he was simply overweight and just looked chubby with fat (which would also the reason for him being really slow and unexplosive that year) and turned it into muscle later.

I see really no difference as far as appearance, and certainly not 15 pounds. He did seem slower for some reason in 2011. I have no idea why, but I agree with that.

[inclinerator]

pippen would probably do as well as butler

[DatAsh]

I think slimmer Lebron was considerably easier to guard in general because he was a mediocre shooter. Look at what Bowen and the '07 Spurs did, pretty much forcing Lebron to be a jump shooter. Scottie is smart and I think he'd recognize that. Lebron's jumper was off during the Bulls series(and Butler certainly deserves a lot of credit for making it tougher on him and disrupting his rhythm) but I don't think you can rely on current Lebron missing as many jumpers as he did.


That's actually a good point I hadn't thought of. Pippen was a brilliant defender and would most definitely take advantage of that, though by 2010 I'd say Lebron's jumper was 90%+ of where it is today. The biggest advantages current Lebron has are post game, off ball play, and defense.

[unbreakable]

Jimmy Butler can guard Lebron... but yea.. Pippen cant

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[CarlosBoozer]

Jimmy Butler can guard Lebron... but yea.. Pippen cant

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I can guard lebron

[Meticode]

LeBron averaged 23.6 on.438 (16 FGA) against Butler and the Bulls this post season, i think Pip would be fine.
While I agree with this, please take into account that the Bulls are one of the best help defense teams in the NBA. Thib did wonders with that depleted roster and at least made them somewhat competitive with the way they played defense together.

[SamuraiSWISH]

pippen would probably do as well as butler
Probably better. Similar on ball defensive skills, Butler might be quicker laterally with his feet. But Pippen's obviously a LOT longer with his arms and stride. I'm sure Pippen could frustrate LeBron.

Pippen struggled most with players with creative handle, or quick first steps. I've seen Hill, Penny, Kobe, and Jordan bust him up with their dribbling skills and lightning fast first steps.

But LeBron has average explosion off triple threat or off the dribble, so Pippen would probably do even better than Butler to be honest.

[K Xerxes]

That's actually a good point I hadn't thought of. Pippen was a brilliant defender and would most definitely take advantage of that, though by 2010 I'd say Lebron's jumper was 90%+ of where it is today. The biggest advantages current Lebron has are post game, off ball play, and defense.

Which is pretty amazing because LeBron's post game is incredibly unrefined. Imagine how much more dominant he could be if he was proficient in the post and on the perimeter. Any smaller defender, he could take down low. Any bigger defender, he could take off the dribble.

LeBron devastated the Thunder last year because he operated mainly on the post with Harden/Durant on him. And he wasn't even skilled. I'm not saying get to Hakeem level, but his footwork is still sloppy. As he gets older and loses his athleticism, he shouldn't fall into the trap of being a perimeter jump shooter - he needs to move permanently to PF. And for that to happen, he needs to keep the weight he's gained recently.

[K Xerxes]

He played with that game 6 mentality. When LeBron plays "fukk it" I want to win mode, and does things naturally without being too self aware of stupid shit like FG% WHILE IN GAME ... he is easily right there with MJ as the best player I've ever seen.

Problem is his mentality. He rarely plays like this .... that game on the road in OKC was his only truly impressive game of that entire February streak that got so over hyped and overrated.

I agree with this, but I think we'll only ever see that game 6 type LeBron when his back is really against the wall. Which, considering the current Miami team and the state of the rest of the league, doesn't seem all that likely to me any time soon.

And even then, I don't think we'll ever see that type of game from LeBron again. The shape of his legacy was on the line, there was talks of him choking last game, breaking up the super team, being the ringless king once more etc etc. It was his career defining game. We may see better statistical performances from him, but none with as much pressure, and none more dominant. He destroyed the Celtics in three quarters, demoralised them when they thought they could come back. It's honestly one of the greatest performances I've ever seen, and, you're right, that LeBron stands at the top with MJ.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's actually a good point I hadn't thought of. Pippen was a brilliant defender and would most definitely take advantage of that, though by 2010 I'd say Lebron's jumper was 90%+ of where it is today. The biggest advantages current Lebron has are post game, off ball play, and defense.

Yeah, but he was already bulked up as well. I agree that his biggest advantage now is being able to play better without the ball, though part of that has to do with having better teammates. I'd also say that Lebron posting up has helped the last few years. He's not what I'd call a dominant post player, but he can score down there now, and he did add that fadeaway, but more importantly, teams double him in the post and he's an excellent passer from there.

[Haymaker]

Jimmy Butler can guard Lebron... but yea.. Pippen cant

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Exactly. :facepalm