Players who proved widespread claims of not being able to win with them wrong.

[Kblaze8855]

Michael Jordan. Back in the "He shoots too much to win/you cant lead the league in scoring and play enough team ball to win" days.

David Robinson .Too soft/no passion.

Shaq. Cant hit Fts/isnt serious enough

Kobe post shaq(see Jordan).

Lebron...well..read topics like this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236545


KG...wont score under pressure...first round losses. That one was pretty funny to me...especially when he....the defensive player of the year...on a defense first team...also led his team in playoff scoring and rebounds...and 4th quarter scoring...and still had a few of his old haters saying he wasnt their best player.

Dirk. too soft...doesnt rebound...wont post up. All that. Topics like the one that gets bumped now and then on how he will never win. you know what I mean.

Wilt. Too selfish...doesnt care...whatever. Wasnt generally liked/respected as much as one might think.

My question is this....

People who make "You cant win with _____" claims.

That ___ might be Derrick Rose, Melo, Westbrook, or whoever.

Do you really not see how teams manage to win with "flawed" players?

Or is it mostly hating and leaning on the fact that since only 30 or so guys ever led a team to a title you could say it of anyone and likely be right?

I myself have said it of Karl Malone long before ISH days. And Reggie Miller.

So im not saying I dont understand the....impulse. But I dont think I could say it these days. Perhaps ive grown up a bit...dont know.

But you look at the likes of Kevin Durant, Melo, Rose, Westbrook, Dwight, Nash and so on. Guys on that level.

Some look like they will come up short(Nash). But is it really THAT hard to imagine a team that wins it all being built around them?

The 04 Pistons....drop Dwight Howard in place of Big Ben....that isnt a serious threat to win it all anyway?

Virtually anyone could win as the best player on a team that played enough defense or got enough lucky breaks.

If you are one of those ___ can NEVER win types....I want to know what it is about the player you find so unlikely to win that makes you feel....nothing can be done?

You have people claiming guys who will be in the NBA 15 more years can never win.

One of you care to back it up with basketball and not...hate?

Id have said it of Malone in the 90s. And I could have explained why. And id have been right. But its quite possible id have said it of David Robinson if someone asked. Turns out he won. And he wasnt some role player when he did it. He put up 24/14/3 blocks a game in the next seasons playoffs without Duncan. They lost...but he proved many times in those years he decided to focus on defense...leading...rebounding..saving it for big situations. He didnt just totally stop being Drob...he decided to stay out of Duncans way. Some might consider that him proving you cant win with him...I might say it proves he had the character to let you do what you had to do...to win with him. If he could have afforded to just play D, keep the guys working hard, score a little, and rebound in the 90s and win...perhaps he does. But he teams didnt have the talent to allow it.



Melo is a guy I hear things like this about lately. Listening to these games....I wonder who else hears the coach literally yelling "Get it to Melo!".

Hes prone to shoot...sure. But any of you fail to notice how often hes put in position to shoot?

Perhaps his teammates are annoyed....but if you ever played basketball on a team team...or coached...or just paid attention...you have to see these sets are designed to give him the ball in his spots. You must see Copeland, Jr, and so on clearing out of his way on the break spacing the floor if he wants to drive and leaving the top of the arc and the albows clear for him to shoot a transition 3 right?

So whos fault is it he shoots it? Him or the system designed to have him do it?

And because of it...hes become a guy you cant possibly win with?

You feel...if hes in some system that doesnt put him in those spots...he will do it anyway? Just mutiny?


I dont really give 2 shits about Carmelo Anthony. Hes just the best example recently.

When you say ___ cant win...do you mean them personally or just in the system they are in when you say it?

And either way...

Id like a list of the guys you feel....cant win.

Just for my own purposes. Id like to see how it goes down the line.

[IncarceratedBob]

Guys who will never win a ring as the 1st option

Chris Bosh
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard
Rudy Gay
Paul George
Roy Hibbert
Russell Westbrook
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love

[ripthekik]

Lebron can't win without 2 all stars. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.

[ispin69]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7671244&postcount=33

[LongLiveTheKing]

Lebron can't win without 2 all stars. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.
Kobe can't win without Phil Jackson, and an All-Star big man. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.

[BlazersDozen]

Lebron can't win without 2 all stars. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.


But he took a team of scrubs to the Finals

[ripthekik]

Kobe can't win without Phil Jackson, and an All-Star big man. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.
at least he has won with a different all-star big man.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I remember that talk about Shaq. Even in the late 90's people were claiming he cared more about his rap/movie career and as a result would never win.


But he took a team of scrubs to the Finals

Nobody has taken scrubs to the finals.

[steve]

I'm not so much interested in the idea as a whole because you can win a championship under the right circumstances with a great player (although I think players like Nash and Melo are probably the cut off, if you don't think a player is better than them then it might be true). What I'm more curious about is what great players hasn't this been said about.

The only players I can think (and I'm talking about truly great players here and not someone like say, Chris Bosh, who's an All-Star caliber player, but not the type of player who someone is going to assume on any level you can build a title contender around) are Russell and Bird, who I haven't heard first hand and anecdotal reports about not being able to win with them. Even a guy like Magic Johnson got some of that when people made claims that he couldn't win one as the best player and his success were more a product of playing second fiddle to Kareem (who in turn also got the same criticism before winning more titles with the Lakers) and it also took on the criticism of Magic not being "clutch." Are there any other players I'm missing you have escaped this odd lining of discussion entirely?

[Orlando Magic]

Michael Jordan. Back in the "He shoots too much to win/you cant lead the league in scoring and play enough team ball to win" days.

Gifted Pippen.


David Robinson .Too soft/no passion.

Injured his way into Duncan.


Shaq. Cant hit Fts/isnt serious enough

Gifted Phil Jackson.


Kobe post shaq(see Jordan).

Gifted Gasol (who was the better player, btw).


Lebron...well..read topics like this:

Conspired with Wade & Bosh.


KG...

Gifted Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.


Dirk. too soft...doesnt rebound...wont post up. All that. Topics like the one that gets bumped now and then on how he will never win. you know what I mean.

Actually your only example of someone who overcame and won without being gifted something for nothing. Congrats... I guess?


Wilt. Too selfish...doesnt care...whatever. Wasnt generally liked/respected as much as one might think.

Only won because of the lack of competition(would not get it done with 30 teams). Russell dominated by knowing how to play the game and get teammates involved instead of it all being about him as an individual.


Worthless topic is worthless.

[RRR3]

Gifted Pippen.



Injured his way into Duncan.



Gifted Phil Jackson.



Gifted Gasol (who was the better player, btw).



Conspired with Wade & Bosh.



Gifted Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.



Actually your only example of someone who overcame and won without being gifted something for nothing. Congrats... I guess?



Only won because of the lack of competition(would not get it done with 30 teams). Russell dominated by knowing how to play the game and get teammates involved instead of it all being about him as an individual.


Worthless topic is worthless.
Hakeem is GOAT, right?

[chocolatethunder]

Michael Jordan. Back in the "He shoots too much to win/you cant lead the league in scoring and play enough team ball to win" days.

David Robinson .Too soft/no passion.

Shaq. Cant hit Fts/isnt serious enough

Kobe post shaq(see Jordan).

Lebron...well..read topics like this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236545


KG...wont score under pressure...first round losses. That one was pretty funny to me...especially when he....the defensive player of the year...on a defense first team...also led his team in playoff scoring and rebounds...and 4th quarter scoring...and still had a few of his old haters saying he wasnt their best player.

Dirk. too soft...doesnt rebound...wont post up. All that. Topics like the one that gets bumped now and then on how he will never win. you know what I mean.

Wilt. Too selfish...doesnt care...whatever. Wasnt generally liked/respected as much as one might think.

My question is this....

People who make "You cant win with _____" claims.

That ___ might be Derrick Rose, Melo, Westbrook, or whoever.

Do you really not see how teams manage to win with "flawed" players?

Or is it mostly hating and leaning on the fact that since only 30 or so guys ever led a team to a title you could say it of anyone and likely be right?

I myself have said it of Karl Malone long before ISH days. And Reggie Miller.

So im not saying I dont understand the....impulse. But I dont think I could say it these days. Perhaps ive grown up a bit...dont know.

But you look at the likes of Kevin Durant, Melo, Rose, Westbrook, Dwight, Nash and so on. Guys on that level.

Some look like they will come up short(Nash). But is it really THAT hard to imagine a team that wins it all being built around them?

The 04 Pistons....drop Dwight Howard in place of Big Ben....that isnt a serious threat to win it all anyway?

Virtually anyone could win as the best player on a team that played enough defense or got enough lucky breaks.

If you are one of those ___ can NEVER win types....I want to know what it is about the player you find so unlikely to win that makes you feel....nothing can be done?

You have people claiming guys who will be in the NBA 15 more years can never win.

One of you care to back it up with basketball and not...hate?

Id have said it of Malone in the 90s. And I could have explained why. And id have been right. But its quite possible id have said it of David Robinson if someone asked. Turns out he won. And he wasnt some role player when he did it. He put up 24/14/3 blocks a game in the next seasons playoffs without Duncan. They lost...but he proved many times in those years he decided to focus on defense...leading...rebounding..saving it for big situations. He didnt just totally stop being Drob...he decided to stay out of Duncans way. Some might consider that him proving you cant win with him...I might say it proves he had the character to let you do what you had to do...to win with him. If he could have afforded to just play D, keep the guys working hard, score a little, and rebound in the 90s and win...perhaps he does. But he teams didnt have the talent to allow it.



Melo is a guy I hear things like this about lately. Listening to these games....I wonder who else hears the coach literally yelling "Get it to Melo!".

Hes prone to shoot...sure. But any of you fail to notice how often hes put in position to shoot?

Perhaps his teammates are annoyed....but if you ever played basketball on a team team...or coached...or just paid attention...you have to see these sets are designed to give him the ball in his spots. You must see Copeland, Jr, and so on clearing out of his way on the break spacing the floor if he wants to drive and leaving the top of the arc and the albows clear for him to shoot a transition 3 right?

So whos fault is it he shoots it? Him or the system designed to have him do it?

And because of it...hes become a guy you cant possibly win with?

You feel...if hes in some system that doesnt put him in those spots...he will do it anyway? Just mutiny?


I dont really give 2 shits about Carmelo Anthony. Hes just the best example recently.

When you say ___ cant win...do you mean them personally or just in the system they are in when you say it?

And either way...

Id like a list of the guys you feel....cant win.

Just for my own purposes. Id like to see how it goes down the line.

I don't have a list but I do wanna touch on something you were saying. All players are flawed and all players to some degree are a product of their systems. A good front office will assemble or at least attempt to assemble a team around a player who compliments that player or players. That means there are going to be guys on that team who compliment a player's strengths and make up for their deficiencies. You can see this all the time in players who look great on one team then horrible on the next or horrible on one then great on the next. I remember when I was in high school and Jordan bashing was en vogue. People used to say all the bs about him. That all changed. Coaching plays a huge role in a players' success. Coaching is so underrated on this board. Like people on this board can't see the difference in AI under Jonnie Davis and Larry Brown. Yeah he had a bunch of big numbers in his first few years but it was all bs. When brown got there all of a sudden the points he was scoring counted for something. Even Hakeem was the same way. He was totally awesome and electrifying when he was young but once Rudy T got to Houston and really figured out how to utilize him then he became who people remember him being. It's difficult for me to make a list because for as much as I dislike Melo or Bosh as the number one option, I def think a team could win with them if its assembled properly. Even when a team is put together right, there's no guarantee that they're going to win. Injuries happen etc. So for me I tend to think that most number one guys could win on the right team. The only problem is that most teams don't have awesome front offices like Los Angeles, Dallas and San Antonio and Miami. Some, like New York have the money and the desire but are just plain stupid. Some, are just plain cheap. Unfortunately, not all great players get the opportunity to play for great teams. That's just the way it is. What happens as a result is lots of morons end up saying player x or player y was never great because they didny win it all. It's just silly.

[Teanett]

Gifted Pippen.



Injured his way into Duncan.



Gifted Phil Jackson.



Gifted Gasol (who was the better player, btw).



Conspired with Wade & Bosh.



Gifted Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.



Actually your only example of someone who overcame and won without being gifted something for nothing. Congrats... I guess?



Only won because of the lack of competition(would not get it done with 30 teams). Russell dominated by knowing how to play the game and get teammates involved instead of it all being about him as an individual.


Worthless topic is worthless.

this.
only dirk has overcome it and without the refs in 2006 there wouldnt be this discussion about him anyways.

[Orlando Magic]

I remember that talk about Shaq. Even in the late 90's people were claiming he cared more about his rap/movie career and as a result would never win.



Nobody has taken scrubs to the finals.

LeBron did.

[imdaman99]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7671244&postcount=33
if nash found his way to okc next year he will make the finals. whats your point? its about your teammates.

melo has not had a clutch playoff performer since his days with billups. 2 yrs ago his #2 in the playoffs was toney douglas? last 2 years its been JR. so yeah, try and tell me ppl win rings when your 2nd best scoring option is a ticking timebomb. the knicks are badly designed, so is okc because the role players are just role players. they can never step up when they need them to. which role player stepped in the finals for okc last year? and how many can you name for the heat? ALL of the heat role players stepped up, which is basically the biggest reason lebron has 1 ring.

[HardwoodLegend]

Lebron can't win without 2 all stars. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.

You'll probably be right, because he'd be too old by the time he would be forced to do it without them.

However, prime LeBron remaining frozen with his same skillset and athleticism could win with other solid teammates.

It's not crazy to assume he could win with a team somewhere in between the quality of this Miami Heat team and his best Cleveland helping roster.

[Kblaze8855]

I feel like Shogons post wasnt meant to be taken all that serious so im gonna disregard it.

[ReturnofJPR]

Please stop starting threads with obnoxiously long titles. Thank you.

[ShaqAttack3234]

LeBron did.

No he didn't. They didn't have much offensive talent, but they were elite defensively and on the boards. Scrubs are players who really can't contribute. Obviously they did contribute, and there's no question that Z was a solid NBA center, Varejao a solid role player, Gooden was a talented offensive player(even if he had the IQ of a brick wall) and a very good rebounder, Hughes was a pretty average starting guard. Snow was a non-factor offensively, but still a good defender. Gibson shot the ball really well and had a couple of 20+ games, iirc.

[Kblaze8855]

Nah im not gonna be doing that.

[SCdac]

Or is it mostly hating and leaning on the fact that since only 30 or so guys ever led a team to a title you could say it of anyone and likely be right?

I myself have said it of Karl Malone long before ISH days. And Reggie Miller.

So im not saying I dont understand the....impulse. But I dont think I could say it these days. Perhaps ive grown up a bit...dont know.

For me, this is it... Not the "likely being right" part. The part about there being a select few. We're not talking about something any player can do. So, it's pointless to assume everybody can.... just because.

And often times, it's glaring what some player is missing (say, Dwight), other times the player has really high-highs and really low-lows... and it's legitimately deceiving when the low-lows come first.... or there's a bunch of them early on.

Honestly, I think there's nothing wrong with having some conviction. Educated conviction, mind you.

It takes all the speculative fun out of the game if you can't make serious, even "controversial", predictions for fear of being wrong or unfair or shortsighted or whatever. Then everybody is neutral just for the sake of being neutral... which is wack.

Way I see it, after roughly 5 years in the league, or around the age of 26, I think it's completely fair game to project and make relatively blanket career predictions. Even before then in some instances, or later in other instances.

You have guys like Hakeem and Dirk who win their first championship later in their careers (post 30 years old) as the main guy, but that seems uncommon. And much of it comes down to timing IMO (no Jordan in the league... Duncan/KG/Shaq all being old)... but that may or may not be a factor depending on how you look at it.

Ultimately, I think it's up to the players to prove us wrong and create their own destiny. If a player plays soft, selfish, or dumb his first 7 seasons, it's up to him to show us he's not soft, selfish, or dumb anymore, it's not on us to assume he'll turn it around.

[Teanett]

Ultimately, I think it's up to the players to prove us wrong and create their own destiny. If a player plays soft, selfish, or dumb his first 7 seasons, it's up to him to show us he's not soft, selfish, or dumb anymore, it's not on us to assume he'll turn it around.

:applause:

[BoutPractice]

You can definitely make a list. For instance, I am fairly confident that Brian Scalabrine will not lead a team to the NBA title anytime soon :D

As for the players mentioned in the thread... I think that most people would agree Durant is capable of leading a team to the NBA championship. He's a true go-to-scorer and a matchup nightmare, has a team first mentality, and already got closer than most at a very young age.

Healthy Derrick Rose (if we ever get to see that again) also has the potential. Add Rose + a reliable second option to the current Bulls and they'd be huge contenders, possibly even favourites.

Westbrook has the ability, but not the mentality. If he matures and gets his own team at some point in his career, I don't see why this couldn't happen. His body may let him down before that though.

I could picture a team with Carmelo as their first offensive weapon winning the title. But he'd need great teammates, great coaching, and a change both in the system and in his game so he can do more with less.

[Kblaze8855]

League is like 60 years old. Players play for long periods of time. Of course there are going to be few who actually win. Kareem was in 1/6th of all the finals in history. If a different person did it yearly it would still be 60 in ten thousand...

A hell of a lot more people are special enough to win than could ever do it.

People hated on Patrick Ewing for years and still do at times when hes compared to people who won.

Dude was literally hakeems pinky finger on a John starks jumper for leading a team to a title.

Elgin Baylor lost 3 game 7s in the finals by a total of 5 points. I dont see how hes more special if someone else makes/misses a jumper.

Jordan comes down wrong on his ankle in game one of the 93 finals and gets hurt like Magic did when the Pistons won...that prove anything about Barkley?


Bob Petitt gets on the "You can win with him" list since he did it....nevermind Russell kinda broke his ankle?


Luck is a hell of a lot of it.

[steve]

I could easily see Anthony winning a title under the right team (well, more the right coach). Chocolatethunder pointed out something important and KBlaze alluded to this with his mention of a player playing in the right system. There are reasons why a George Karl team has never won a title, has seemingly disappointed multiple seasons, and continually make similar mistakes despite roster turnover (it starts to become impressive that Karl's team always seem to fail late in tight games). When looking at teams have that have won titles, can anyone say a bad coach has won an NBA title? Hell, I'd be hard pressed to say just "good" coach has one an NBA title. My personal memory (and I think this is more important when judging coaches, because you really need a feel for how good a coach is) goes back to Chuck Daly and between him, Jackson, Tomjanovich, Poopvich, Riley, Brown, Carlisle, and Spoelstra these aren't mediocre coaches winning championships (there are a few like Van Gundy, Nelson, and Adelman I'd throw in to off the top of my head). So yeah, for truly great players, I think it's much important for the player to be in the right system to really maximize how far they go.

[DMAVS41]

For me, this is it... Not the "likely being right" part. The part about there being a select few. We're not talking about something any player can do. So, it's pointless to assume everybody can.... just because.

And often times, it's glaring what some player is missing (say, Dwight), other times the player has really high-highs and really low-lows... and it's legitimately deceiving when the low-lows come first.... or there's a bunch of them early on.

Honestly, I think there's nothing wrong with having some conviction. Educated conviction, mind you.

It takes all the speculative fun out of the game if you can't make serious, even "controversial", predictions for fear of being wrong or unfair or shortsighted or whatever. Then everybody is neutral just for the sake of being neutral... which is wack.

Way I see it, after roughly 5 years in the league, or around the age of 26, I think it's completely fair game to project and make relatively blanket career predictions. Even before then in some instances, or later in other instances.

You have guys like Hakeem and Dirk who win their first championship later in their careers (post 30 years old) as the main guy, but that seems uncommon. And much of it comes down to timing IMO (no Jordan in the league... Duncan/KG/Shaq all being old)... but that may or may not be a factor depending on how you look at it.

Ultimately, I think it's up to the players to prove us wrong and create their own destiny. If a player plays soft, selfish, or dumb his first 7 seasons, it's up to him to show us he's not soft, selfish, or dumb anymore, it's not on us to assume he'll turn it around.

This is true if you can actually speak accurately about said player.

And I really hope you aren't implying that the Mavs won in 11 due to lack of competition. It really sounds like you are, but I'll give you a chance to explain what that comment meant.

[DMAVS41]

League is like 60 years old. Players play for long periods of time. Of course there are going to be few who actually win. Kareem was in 1/6th of all the finals in history. If a different person did it yearly it would still be 60 in ten thousand...

A hell of a lot more people are special enough to win than could ever do it.

People hated on Patrick Ewing for years and still do at times when hes compared to people who won.

Dude was literally hakeems pinky finger on a John starks jumper for leading a team to a title.

Elgin Baylor lost 3 game 7s in the finals by a total of 5 points. I dont see how hes more special if someone else makes/misses a jumper.

Jordan comes down wrong on his ankle in game one of the 93 finals and gets hurt like Magic did when the Pistons won...that prove anything about Barkley?


Bob Petitt gets on the "You can win with him" list since he did it....nevermind Russell kinda broke his ankle?


Luck is a hell of a lot of it.

Of course. It's all about what you do given the circumstances you find yourself in.

Ewing, for example, might have won a title playing in Duncan's place for his career. But is he winning 4? Hell no based on the evidence.

Is Kobe winning titles given the help Iverson had? Of course not.

Everyone understands this concept and is simply why winning and rings matter a lot...but only when put into proper context.

[B-Low]

He wasn't the star but back in his Sacto days everyone said a team could never win a title with Jason Williams as their starting PG, so the Kings traded him for the more responsible/tame Mike Bibby. Couple years later and

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/363/919/JasonWilliams2_display_image.jpg

Started every game of the playoffs and the Heat won the title with J Dub averaging only 1.6 TO per game.

[Kblaze8855]

That Heat team had Jason Williams AND Antione Walker. Two "You cant win with...." guys playing big roles.

[DMAVS41]

That Heat team had Jason Williams AND Antione Walker. Two "You cant win with...." guys playing big roles.

But in diminished roles from where they got that stigma. I think that is different than what everyone is talking about.

[B-Low]

Outside of Shaq and Wade, Williams was their #3 scorer and Walker was their #4 scorer. Besides the two all stars, they had the biggest roles on the team.

Williams was still the starting PG and everyone said they couldn't win with him as their starting PG. He proved them wrong either way.

[HardwoodLegend]

Rasheed Wallace feels that he belongs on this list.

[imdaman99]

But in diminished roles from where they got that stigma. I think that is different than what everyone is talking about.
exactly. there is a difference from jwill crossing over and taking pull up 3 after pull up 3 and walker launching eight 3s a game than when they became capable role players. not saying they werent important, i remember them both hitting huge shots. role players stepping up to win championships are so big. its one of the main reasons the heat won last year and okc didnt.

[DMAVS41]

Outside of Shaq and Wade, Williams was their #3 scorer and Walker was their #4 scorer. Besides the two all stars, they had the biggest roles on the team.

Williams was still the starting PG and everyone said they couldn't win with him as their starting PG. He proved them wrong either way.

This isn't the point.

Williams may have been the 4th leading scorer, but he was an afterthought player.

He averaged 9/4/2 on shit efficiency. It's not like he did something we haven't seen before or anything. He won as a role player. That isn't where that type of stigma came from.

That would be like the Melo talk...and then Melo joins the Bulls in 3 years and wins a title as a 15ppg guy. That won't prove anything...

[Kblaze8855]

Antione Walker took over 6 threes a game those playoffs and Jason was like 6 years removed from playing crazy. he was one of the more steady points in the NBA on Memphis I thought. Both of them played the ball they played most of their careers.

Hell Antione went 6-17 and missed 6 threes in game 6 of the 06 finals.

I never much cared for him(after say...1999). But he did show that his style wasnt keeping anyone from winning. The Celtics just didnt have talent and the Mavs had chemistry issues that were not his fault. There were mavs fans early in 04 saying he had taken the team over....and it was a good thing.

Guys just lose a couple times and have it assumed they cant win...because they didnt. Usually when they shouldnt have.

[Kblaze8855]

This isn't the point.

Williams may have been the 4th leading scorer, but he was an afterthought player.

He averaged 9/4/2 on shit efficiency. It's not like he did something we haven't seen before or anything. He won as a role player. That isn't where that type of stigma came from.

That would be like the Melo talk...and then Melo joins the Bulls in 3 years and wins a title as a 15ppg guy. That won't prove anything...


Jason was a role player when people decided he couldnt win.

he was a role player his entire career. Maybe a half notch up from one in Memphis. But he was always close to one.

[SCdac]

This is true if you can actually speak accurately about said player.

And I really hope you aren't implying that the Mavs won in 11 due to lack of competition. It really sounds like you are, but I'll give you a chance to explain what that comment meant.

We've talked about this many times, and I like to think we've established what one another thinks.... to the point where we don't have to turn this thread into one centered around your favorite player.

I'll preface this by saying: if you don't agree or even understand my line of thinking it doesn't bother me.

But, the bottom line, to me, is this....

Chris Bosh
Pau Gasol
Serge Ibaka
LaMarcus Aldridge
etc.

Those are generally the players at Dirks position that he went through in the post season. Only one of them (Gasol) is really an all-time great, and even then, it's largely due to his tenure in LA. And even then, Gasol sucked in the postseason before facing the Mavs.

Going further, it should illustrate a clear transition in the league to not see these names at the very least as deep playoff warriors (if not direct competition to Dirk):

Tim Duncan
Shaquille Oneal
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
etc.

Those, outside of Dirk, were basically the best bigs for the majority of Dirk's career... Yet, they were all retired or on their last legs.

Point being, I think it was "Dirk's time". And there should be no doubt he seized it with authority (I've never doubted that, he played like a boss).... But like I said, timing is everything.

Do I think 2011 Dirk wins a championship with the same squad in the mid or early 2000's?... No

Do I think the Mavs capitalized on a uber-young OKC team, a flailing Lakers team, and a Heat team that was pieced together on the fly using random veterans? .... Yes

Should Mavs or Mavs fans give a shit about any of that and think less of their championship? ... Obviously not.

Do I think the Spurs and every other championship team gained something however minute or large from good timing? .... yes, of course.

[DMAVS41]

Antione Walker took over 6 threes a game those playoffs and Jason was like 6 years removed from playing crazy. he was one of the more steady points in the NBA on Memphis I thought. Both of them played the ball they played most of their careers.

Hell Antione went 6-17 and missed 6 threes in game 6 of the 06 finals.

I never much cared for him(after say...1999). But he did show that his style wasnt keeping anyone from winning. The Celtics just didnt have talent and the Mavs had chemistry issues that were not his fault. There were mavs fans early in 04 saying he had taken the team over....and it was a good thing.

Guys just lose a couple times and have it assumed they cant win...because they didnt. Usually when they shouldnt have.

But this isn't where the stigma came from.

People were saying you couldn't win with Walker when he was taking 17 to 20 shots a game.

Nobody was saying you couldn't win with him taking 12 shots a game.

It's just a terrible example. Nobody was saying..."Walker can't be the 3rd best player on a team that wins"

[DMAVS41]

We've talked about this many times, and I like to think we've established what one another thinks.... to the point where we don't have to turn this thread into one centered around your favorite player.

I'll preface this by saying: if you don't agree or even understand my line of thinking it doesn't bother me.

But, the bottom line, to me, is this....

Chris Bosh
Pau Gasol
Serge Ibaka
LaMarcus Aldridge
etc.

Those are generally the players at Dirks position that he went through in the post season. Only one of them (Gasol) is really an all-time great, and even then, it's largely due to his tenure in LA. And even then, Gasol sucked in the postseason before facing the Mavs.

Going further, it should illustrate a clear transition in the league to not see these names at the very least as deep playoff warriors (if not direct competition to Dirk):

Tim Duncan
Shaquille Oneal
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
etc.

Those, outside of Dirk, were basically the best bigs for the majority of Dirk's career... Yet, they were all retired or on their last legs.

Point being, I think it was "Dirk's time". And there should be no doubt he seized it with authority (I've never doubted that, he played like a boss).... But like I said, timing is everything.

Do I think 2011 Dirk wins a championship with the same squad in the mid or early 2000's?... No

Do I think the Mavs capitalized on a uber-young OKC team, a flailing Lakers team, and a Heat team that was pieced together on the fly using random veterans? .... Yes

Should Mavs or Mavs fans give a shit about any of that and think less of their championship? ... Obviously not.

Do I think the Spurs and every other championship team gained something however minute or large from good timing? .... yes, of course.

Well, going through Bosh, LA, Gasol, and Ibaka is hardly an easy path at his position.

But, of course, it's about the competition level the team faces.

But it sounds like you are coming off that...considering your Spurs have easily faced the weakest competition in their title runs out of all the championship teams of the last decade or so. Especially in the finals outside of 05.

So...as long as you are consistent and you put the same sort of asterisk on Duncan's titles...I have no problem with it.

[B-Low]

This isn't the point.

Williams may have been the 4th leading scorer, but he was an afterthought player.

He averaged 9/4/2 on shit efficiency. It's not like he did something we haven't seen before or anything. He won as a role player. That isn't where that type of stigma came from.

That would be like the Melo talk...and then Melo joins the Bulls in 3 years and wins a title as a 15ppg guy. That won't prove anything...

His role wasn't that diminished from the time when people criticized him.

Compare his peak in Sacto to his championship year in Miami:

Sacto: 36 mpg, 12.8 ppg, 6 apg, 3.1 rpg, 37% shooting, 2.9 TOpg
Miami: 31 mpg, 12.1 ppg, 4.9 apg, 2.4 rpg, 44% shooting, 1.7 TOpg

Both times he was the starting PG, seeing about the same amount of playing time, scoring the same amount of points

Melo going somewhere and cutting his scoring average in half and playing a completely different role wouldn't be anything like that. The only circumstance that changed with Williams is that he matured and stopped playing so recklessly. He had the same amount that was being asked of him, he just started playing smarter, shot a better FG% and cut his turnovers almost in half.

Proving that he could change into a starting PG that played championship-style basketball is exactly what people said he couldn't do, so he proved them wrong. There was no diminished role, it was the same as Sacto but he matured when people said he didn't have the head to do it.

[Kblaze8855]

Im gonna cover antione and melo both with one example you put out there....


If Melo in a couple years decides to shoot less and win a ring as a 15ppg player on the Bulls...how will that not disprove every negative word said of him?

It would be a known superstar talent deciding not to press the issue...and accept a smaller scoring role for the good of his team.

Isnt his presumed unwillingness or inability to do other things half the problem?

Melo deciding to pick his spots and play team ball and win....that would absolutely prove a point.

It would prove he does what hes asked and will win in any way that he can.

Hes gotta win taking 30 shots a night to prove he could win?

IT would pretty much be WIlt on the Lakers,

Doing what hes asked to do so his teammates can flourish and win a ring. You cant ask anything more.

[DMAVS41]

His role wasn't that diminished from the time when people criticized him.

Compare his peak in Sacto to his championship year in Miami:

Sacto: 36 mpg, 12.8 ppg, 6 apg, 3.1 rpg, 37% shooting, 2.9 TOpg
Miami: 31 mpg, 12.1 ppg, 4.9 apg, 2.4 rpg, 44% shooting, 1.7 TOpg

Both times he was the starting PG, seeing about the same amount of playing time, scoring the same amount of points

Melo going somewhere and cutting his scoring average in half and playing a completely different role wouldn't be anything like that. The only circumstance that changed with Williams is that he matured and stopped playing so recklessly. He had the same amount that was being asked of him, he just started playing smarter, shot a better FG% and cut his turnovers almost in half.

Proving that he could change into a starting PG that played championship-style basketball is exactly what people said he couldn't do, so he proved them wrong. There was no diminished role, it was the same as Sacto but he matured when people said he didn't have the head to do it.

My point is not to debate whether or not you could win with him or not. It's that people saying that (which I didn't) weren't talking about him in the role he played.

He didn't average those numbers you listed. In the playoffs he did the following;

9/4/2 on 41/27/84

That just isn't enough to prove one or the other anything. Props to him for playing well and winning, but it just isn't a good example of what kblaze is going for in this thread.

[Doranku]

We've talked about this many times, and I like to think we've established what one another thinks.... to the point where we don't have to turn this thread into one centered around your favorite player.

I'll preface this by saying: if you don't agree or even understand my line of thinking it doesn't bother me.

But, the bottom line, to me, is this....

Chris Bosh
Pau Gasol
Serge Ibaka
LaMarcus Aldridge
etc.

Those are generally the players at Dirks position that he went through in the post season. Only one of them (Gasol) is really an all-time great, and even then, it's largely due to his tenure in LA. And even then, Gasol sucked in the postseason before facing the Mavs.

Going further, it should illustrate a clear transition in the league to not see these names at the very least as deep playoff warriors (if not direct competition to Dirk):

Tim Duncan
Shaquille Oneal
Kevin Garnett
Chris Webber
etc.

Those, outside of Dirk, were basically the best bigs for the majority of Dirk's career... Yet, they were all retired or on their last legs.

Point being, I think it was "Dirk's time". And there should be no doubt he seized it with authority (I've never doubted that, he played like a boss).... But like I said, timing is everything.

Do I think 2011 Dirk wins a championship with the same squad in the mid or early 2000's?... No

Do I think the Mavs capitalized on a uber-young OKC team, a flailing Lakers team, and a Heat team that was pieced together on the fly using random veterans? .... Yes

Should Mavs or Mavs fans give a shit about any of that and think less of their championship? ... Obviously not.

Do I think the Spurs and every other championship team gained something however minute or large from good timing? .... yes, of course.

Well by that logic, none of Jordan's rings are impressive because he never played ANY all-time great 2 guards except like Drexler. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Im gonna cover antione and melo both with one example you put out there....


If Melo in a couple years decides to shoot less and win a ring as a 15ppg player on the Bulls...how will that not disprove every negative word said of him?

It would be a known superstar talent deciding not to press the issue...and accept a smaller scoring role for the good of his team.

Isnt his presumed unwillingness or inability to do other things half the problem?

Melo deciding to pick his spots and play team ball and win....that would absolutely prove a point.

It would prove he does what hes asked and will win in any way that he can.

Hes gonna win taking 30 shots a night to prove he could win?

IT would pretty much be WIlt on the Lakers,

Doing what hes asked to do so his teammates can flourish and win a ring. You cant ask anything more.

But people aren't saying he couldn't win doing that. People are saying he can't win as the featured player...or a featured player.

You are just taking all the pressure off him if he's playing the Jason Terry role.

Who here is saying that Carmelo can't be a 3rd best player type 6th man a championship team? Hell, we've seen him do a great job of that on team USA.

The criticism of Melo is that as a featured player he doesn't do enough for his team to win because he's so inefficient and such a ball hog and ball stopper. Same thing with Walker. And those people were proven right with Walker and so far are right with Melo....Walker shooting 5 less shots a game and playing a diminished role on a championship team just proves them right. You can't win with Walker playing a featured role...he needs to be an afterthought.

[steve]

I never much cared for him(after say...1999). But he did show that his style wasnt keeping anyone from winning. The Celtics just didnt have talent and the Mavs had chemistry issues that were not his fault. There were mavs fans early in 04 saying he had taken the team over....and it was a good thing.

Yeah, the Celtics team had one real successful season in '02 and they were 2 games from making it to the finals with their best line-up being Walker, Pierce, Eric Williams, Kenny Anderson, and Tony Battie (and shockingly they actually swept the Lakers that season).

The year he was in Dallas was just one of the more oddly constructed teams ever. The line-up Nowitzki, Walker, Jamison, Finley, and Nash was actually their most used line-up and actually played really well together, but it wasn't really a sustainable group.

[DMAVS41]

Well by that logic, none of Jordan's rings are impressive because he never played ANY all-time great 2 guards except like Drexler. :confusedshrug:

The best part of it...is it comes from a Spurs/Duncan fan....and they could not have had easier paths to the titles.

LOL

[Kblaze8855]

Id say Jason is pretty much exactly the kind of person I mean.

His role didnt really diminish much at all. He was never a star to begin with. He put up 10/4, 10/2, and 9 and 3 on the Kings in the playoffs.

He played as large a role...he just played smarter in that role.

He was a "You will never win...." type who like most of them...just had to land in the right spot.

He wasnt doing numbers when he was White chocolate. He was just in all the highlights. But he wasnt a star then or on Miami. Not production/impact wise. He had about the same role his entire career.

[SCdac]

Well, going through Bosh, LA, Gasol, and Ibaka is hardly an easy path at his position.

But, of course, it's about the competition level the team faces.

But it sounds like you are coming off that...considering your Spurs have easily faced the weakest competition in their title runs out of all the championship teams of the last decade or so. Especially in the finals outside of 05.

So...as long as you are consistent and you put the same sort of asterisk on Duncan's titles...I have no problem with it.

Considering Tim Duncan went through Shaq, Garnett, Sheed / Big Ben, Amare, and some all-time best defenses.... I'm totally content with the competition, at his position, Duncan faced.

Duncan beat Shaq, arguably the most dominant player of all time, in championship seasons three times... That speaks volumes.

Saying "Dirk beat Kobe, Lebron, and Durant" just doesn't resonate to me. It's like apples and oranges. I don't think at any point he really guarded them, and if anything makes me give the necessary amount of credit to Marion, Stevenson, Kidd, etc.

[Doranku]

The best part of it...is it comes from a Spurs/Duncan fan....and they could not have had easier paths to the titles.

LOL

I just don't know how he can downplay the competition that Dirk went through by comparing only opposing PFs.

He went through FOUR of the best FIVE players in the league; Kobe, Durant, LeBron, and Wade. How many other finals MVPs can say that?

Not to mention every team he faced was healthy (I actually don't think Kobe was 100%, but meh). Even Brandon Roy was out there playing. :oldlol:

[SCdac]

Well by that logic, none of Jordan's rings are impressive because he never played ANY all-time great 2 guards except like Drexler. :confusedshrug:

First off, Jordan played in a tougher era.

Secondly, he's the greatest player of all time and won 6 championships. He could never face anybody as good as him... they didn't exist.

Third, there is no comparison between Jordan and Dirk, regardless of competition they face. Let's not get silly.

[DMAVS41]

Id say Jason is pretty much exactly the kind of person I mean.

His role didnt really diminish much at all. He was never a star to begin with. He put up 10/4, 10/2, and 9 and 3 on the Kings in the playoffs.

He played as large a role...he just played smarter in that role.

He was a "You will never win...." type who like most of them...just had to land in the right spot.

He wasnt doing numbers when he was White chocolate. He was just in all the highlights. But he wasnt a star then or on Miami. Not production/impact wise. He had about the same role his entire career.

You miss my point. It's that his role wasn't big enough for it to make a statement as to what kind of success you can have with him.

On the Kings he played his style and whether or not the numbers were the same...the team largely was run by a different type of player than the one we saw in Miami.

How many guys can come in on a NBA team like the Heat and average 9/4/2 on average at best efficiency?

It's just not enough to prove anything.

In reality, what is funny, is that you are just proving people right about these claims. Put any player in a certain role and they can win. That isn't what people are talking about.

Are you really this dense? Nobody is claiming things about Melo as a 6th man.

The Heat won because of Wade and Shaq and Riley. You could literally find thousands of players throughout NBA history to fill in the roles that Williams and Walker played. That means nothing...

Williams didn't just land in the right spot...He changed the way he played. That is the point...you are just proving people right.

[DMAVS41]

Considering Tim Duncan went through Shaq, Garnett, Sheed / Big Ben, Amare, and some all-time best defenses.... I'm totally content with the competition, at his position, Duncan faced.

Duncan beat Shaq, arguably the most dominant player of all time, in championship seasons three times... That speaks volumes.

Saying "Dirk beat Kobe, Lebron, and Durant" just doesn't resonate to me. It's like apples and oranges. I don't think at any point he really guarded them, and if anything makes me give the necessary amount of credit to Marion, Stevenson, Kidd, etc.

If it was a 1 on 1 game then I'd agree that Duncan faced hard competition. The problem is that is isn't....and your Spurs/Duncan faced absurdly easy competition in the playoffs the years they won...outside of 05 really.

I am supposed to be impressed with the 07 title? ROFL at the audacity to question the 11 competition from a fan of a team that faced literally nobody in 07. Lebron in the finals? Jazz in the conference finals? So Lebron, Kobe, Durant doesn't impress you. But williams and pre prime lebron does?

Wake up dude. Wake the **** up.

Not to mention we saw what Dirk was capable of against two of the best pf's of all time in the playoffs. Dirk outplayed KG in 02. And always played very well against Duncan and beat him twice in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

But people aren't saying he couldn't win doing that. People are saying he can't win as the featured player...or a featured player.

People are saying(or at least implying) that he WOULDNT do that. Nobody has ever doubted Melos talent. Last few years its been his approach. You remember all the Lin hype. Melo comes back and Lin is average again.

The question when he was out was....will Melo step in and just be one of the guys and not disrupt this beautiful ball movement.

Answer was no.

If he had...if he had come in and not been a ball stopper.....kept the turnaround going...picked his spots. Scored when he had to. Won games.

You consider that unimpressive?


You are just taking all the pressure off him if he's playing the Jason Terry role.

Im picturing more....in your hypothetical...im guessing Rose is still a Bull...

James worthy on the Lakers?

Maybe Dantley on the Pistons?

15 is just unrealistic. Im talking a major step back as a scorer. Maybe a 17-20ppg guy fitting in. Which I guess is what Terry was when they won.

But I dont see that as something to make Melo out as less impressive for being.

And if he didnt have the mentality that leading/winning is done by shooting a lot maybe we arent seeing his name in these things to begin with.


Who here is saying that Carmelo can't be a 3rd best player type 6th man a championship team? Hell, we've seen him do a great job of that on team USA.

The criticism of Melo is that as a featured player he doesn't do enough for his team to win because he's so inefficient and such a ball hog and ball stopper. Same thing with Walker. And those people were proven right with Walker and so far are right with Melo....Walker shooting 5 less shots a game and playing a diminished role on a championship team just proves them right. You can't win with Walker playing a featured role...he needs to be an afterthought.

That "If it doesnt happen im proven right" mentality is just funny to me.

Most people arent gonna win.

Are the many many people playing the right way and losing proving you cant play hard, pass the ball, make your open shots, and play D....and win?

When 29 teams lose 25 or so of them not having leaders playing like Melo..what does that say of them?

You could pin "You cant win playing like ____" to every star in the NBA every year and be proven right about 90% of them by the end of their career. And the ones who win will more often than not just have more talent, better luck, or coaching.

Im not saying some guys arent just special enough to power a team to a ring....


Im just saying...if Walker in his prime were the #2 to prime Shaq and had good vet role players who already won rings and all...instead of Pierce, Battie, Walter, and so on...maybe he isnt a loser after all.

[DMAVS41]

People are saying(or at least implying) that he WOULDNT do that. Nobody has ever doubted Melos talent. Last few years its been his approach. You remember all the Lin hype. Melo comes back and Lin is average again.

The question when he was out was....will Melo step in and just be one of the guys and not disrupt this beautiful ball movement.

Answer was no.

If he had...if he had come in and not been a ball stopper.....kept the turnaround going...picked his spots. Scored when he had to. Won games.

You consider that unimpressive?



Im picturing more....in your hypothetical...im guessing Rose is still a Bull...

James worthy on the Lakers?

Maybe Dantley on the Pistons?

15 is just unrealistic. Im talking a major step back as a scorer. Maybe a 17-20ppg guy fitting in. Which I guess is what Terry was when they won.

But I dont see that as something to make Melo out as less impressive for being.

And if he didnt have the mentality that leading/winning is done by shooting a lot maybe we arent seeing his name in these things to begin with.



That "If it doesnt happen im proven right" mentality is just funny to me.

Most people arent gonna win.

Are the many many people playing the right way and losing proving you cant play hard, pass the ball, make your open shots, and play D....and win?

When 29 teams lose 25 or so of them not having leaders playing like Melo..what does that say of them?

You could pin "You cant win playing like ____" to every star in the NBA every year and be proven right about 90% of them by the end of their career. And the ones who win will more often than not just have more talent, better luck, or coaching.

Im not saying some guys arent just special enough to power a team to a ring....


Im just saying...if Walker in his prime were the #2 to prime Shaq and had good vet role players who already won rings and all...instead of Pierce, Battie, Walter, and so on...maybe he isnt a loser after all.


Well, there are no absolutes at all.

I can't predict the future. All I can say is that I don't think a team can win a title with Melo playing the way he has his entire playoff career. If he randomly starts playing efficient basketball...then obviously things change.

If he accepts a 6th man role...then things change and it isn't what I'm talking about.

I think there is a difference between saying said player will never win...and saying said player will never win based on their style.

If a player all of a sudden starts playing better or changes completely...then it kind of proves the point of those that were questioning it to begin with.

Have to disagree about Walker. I don't think him and Shaq are winning anything together with Walker as the for sure 2nd best player on the team. Ever.

[chips93]

Id have said it of Malone in the 90s. And I could have explained why. And id have been right. But its quite possible id have said it of David Robinson if someone asked. Turns out he won. And he wasnt some role player when he did it. He put up 24/14/3 blocks a game in the next seasons playoffs without Duncan. They lost...but he proved many times in those years he decided to focus on defense...leading...rebounding..saving it for big situations. He didnt just totally stop being Drob...he decided to stay out of Duncans way. Some might consider that him proving you cant win with him...I might say it proves he had the character to let you do what you had to do...to win with him. If he could have afforded to just play D, keep the guys working hard, score a little, and rebound in the 90s and win...perhaps he does. But he teams didnt have the talent to allow it.


yeah, this bit is very important

i dont think there is any player, who cant win a title, at all.

any inefficient player, could learn to play a smaller role, or learn to play to their strengths, but i think any time somebody says you cant win with _, it implies, with them playing the way they do, and as your best player.


Perhaps his teammates are annoyed....but if you ever played basketball on a team team...or coached...or just paid attention...you have to see these sets are designed to give him the ball in his spots. You must see Copeland, Jr, and so on clearing out of his way on the break spacing the floor if he wants to drive and leaving the top of the arc and the albows clear for him to shoot a transition 3 right?

So whos fault is it he shoots it? Him or the system designed to have him do it?

And because of it...hes become a guy you cant possibly win with?

but how did they come up with the system? the offensive system the knicks coached designed, took into account melo's shortcomings as a passer.

so maybe if melo werent such a selfish player, the knicks would run different plays that wouldnt 'force' him to be so selfish.

[SCdac]

If it was a 1 on 1 game then I'd agree that Duncan faced hard competition.

I definitely think Duncan faced tougher big men in his championship runs, and won his championships in more of a big man's league.

You're trying to turn this into a "Spurs comp vs. Mavs comp" argument. I'm talking about big men only, the quality of big men, the amount of elite ones right now, and so on.

The only team Dirk faced in his run that was even lead by a big man was the Trailblazers... Just a different era.

Again, I give a ton of credit to the Mavs perimeter defense to be able to stop guys like Kobe and Lebron. It's a swing mans and point guards game right now.

[Kblaze8855]

I was the chief opponent to the Celtic fans at the time claiming Walker was top 15-20. Jsic...RMWG im not sure was here yet but if so...he was known as something else.

But still...Shaq/Duncan/Dirk/KG/Lebron/Kobe...

That level of player?

I dont think Walker takes enough away with his shot selection that you cant contend.

Hell the 09 or 10 Cavs with 98-01 Walker? Thats a better team.

[DMAVS41]

I definitely think Duncan faced tougher big men in his championship runs, and won his championships in more of a big man's league.

You're trying to turn this into a "Spurs comp vs. Mavs comp" argument. I'm talking about big men only, the quality of big men, the amount of elite ones right now, and so on.

The only team Dirk faced in his run that was even lead by a big man was the Trailblazers... Just a different era.

Again, I give a ton of credit to the Mavs perimeter defense to be able to stop guys like Kobe and Lebron. It's a swing mans and point guards game right now.

And that would hold weight if we ignored what Dirk did against the best big men throughout the last decade.

Oh...and Bynum, Odom, and Gasol isn't a worthy trio of big men? Just a non argument.

When Dirk faced the likes of Duncan or Kg in the playoffs...he played as well or better than he normally did.

[Scholar]

I bet Tracy McGrady will never win an NBA title as the 1st option.

[DMAVS41]

I was the chief opponent to the Celtic fans at the time claiming Walker was top 15-20. Jsic...RMWG im not sure was here yet but if so...he was known as something else.

But still...Shaq/Duncan/Dirk/KG/Lebron/Kobe...

That level of player?

I dont think Walker takes enough away with his shot selection that you cant contend.

Hell the 09 or 10 Cavs with 98-01 Walker? Thats a better team.

Like I said, there are no absolutes. But Walker taking between 17 and 20 shots a game at 40/35/60 or whatever the shit fest he was doing most likely isn't going to be good enough to win a title.

Now...could they? Sure...they could face really easy competition or catch a break or something like that.

And if Melo wins a title playing the same way he has his entire playoff career...I'll come on here and say I was wrong. But I'll venture a guess that I'll never have to do that.

Like I said before. You are talking about people saying..."melo will never win"

I that is what you are talking about...then your points make a lot more sense. But I don't think that is what they mean. They are saying that Melo will never win playing the way he has to date. If Melo turns into Lebron this offseason...nobody will be making those claims.

[Dengness9]

I remember that talk about Shaq. Even in the late 90's people were claiming he cared more about his rap/movie career and as a result would never win.



Nobody has taken scrubs to the finals.


2001 Iverson? not to take away from Snow, Mckie, Mutumbo, etc..... but that team was weak.

[DMAVS41]

The example of this is pretty clear.

Dirk proved people wrong. He won playing the featured role on a team as the lone superstar. The very thing people claimed he could never do.

That is completely different than the notion that Melo would prove people wrong by accepting a Jason Terry role on a title team.

That is the difference and I don't think Melo winning in that role proves anything in terms of what people are saying.

[TheBigVeto]

Dirk is GOAT then - he was able to overcome David Stern's evil plans.

[I<3NBA]

i'm of the opinion that if a team reaches the NBA finals, they're good enough to win it. the one thing that makes the difference is coaching. the team with the better coach will win.

[Orlando Magic]

i'm of the opinion that if a team reaches the NBA finals, they're good enough to win it. the one thing that makes the difference is coaching. the team with the better coach will win.

You say better coach. I say least retarded coach.

Scott Brooks vs Erik Spoelstra?

You shouldn't be throwing the term "better" in there, as that gives that person some type of credibility.

Really? I mean come on. LOL.

[Dizzle-2k7]

lol kblaze on lebrons nuts again.. dude has the most stacked team of all time smh

[I<3NBA]

You say better coach. I say least retarded coach.

Scott Brooks vs Erik Spoelstra?

You shouldn't be throwing the term "better" in there, as that gives that person some type of credibility.

Really? I mean come on. LOL.
Scot Brooks defeated Pop that year. so what you're saying is that Scot Brooks is "least retarded" than Popovich.

and if you don't think Spoelstra has proven himself, you're even more retarded. the Heat just stringed up a historic 27 win streak this season. it takes more than just a "least retarded coach" not to fk up even a historic great team such as Miami.

year by year, Spoelstra kept getting better. you're allowing your ignorance to blind you. just because he started out incompetent doesn't mean he's still incompetent today. being given that kind of roster would make anyone so very much in over their heads. but he was able to control that group and then meld them into a real team.

improvements Spoelstra has made since the big 3 teamed up:

1. before, he sucked at calling timeouts. now, he's better at it. actually knows when to call timeouts and when not to.
2. has learned to implement an actual offense for Miami
3. year 1: could hardly control Wade and Lebron now: the 2 actually listens to him
4. rotations improved.

so many idiots here continue to believe Spoelstra is trash when he has already proven himself beyond doubt that he's better than most coaches in the NBA. coaches worse than Spoelstra:

Woodson
VDN
MDA
Scot Brooks
Mike Brown

so many idiots here who think coaching is the easiest job in the world.
it's easy in here to see who has played competitive sport and who hasn't. those who has ,have a health respect for coaches. those who haven't think coaching is just some guy calling out x and o's.

i've played under the guidance of a coach so i know what coaches do. and x and o's are the least of it.

[dh144498]

Nobody has taken scrubs to the finals.

this. Stans just like to prop up their idol by taking credit away from his teammates.

[Kblaze8855]

lol kblaze on lebrons nuts again.. dude has the most stacked team of all time smh

A discussion I was having on Dirk in another topic is what put this in my head actually....

But what you said is still a straight up fabrication.

Especially assuming you mean now and last year. Lebrons supporting cast has not been especially great compared to plenty of great teams if you want to be honest about it. Wade last year did not play better than Parker in 07 and Bosh missing half the playoffs and scoring like 14ppg when he did play was not more effective than Manu in 07 either. And their role players were no more special than Bowen, Barry, and Finley were for those spurs.

Lebron is worse than 2000 Shaq, Wade was hardly Wade last playoffs...maibe a third of a notch up from 2000 Kobe if at all, and 14/8 out for 13 games of the playoffs Bosh is hardly more help than Rice, Horry, Harper, Fox and Fisher were in that run. The role players pretty much balance out....but Lebron is no 2000 Shaq.

Hell Nash had more help on the Suns than Lebron on the Heat the last couple years. The MVP...also has a 26ppg Amare who drops 38ppg on the Spurs, the 22/12 all nba and all D team Marion, Joe Johnson, and shooters out the ass?

Amare was flat better at his peak than Wade was last year partly hobbled. Marion was better at his peak on those Suns than Bosh was last year or this year doing his 16/7. Role players on Miami played D role players on the suns made 3s. Similar talent though.

Shit you wanna be real Gary Payton had an equal or better cast than Lebron won with. Prime Kemp vs slightly hobbled Wade? Id call that a wash. All NBA third team 19ppg Detlef shooting 53% and 51% from 3 vs Bosh? I'll call that a wash. Perkins, Nate, and Hersey Hawkins vs Battier, Chalmers, and Haslem? I gotta lean Sonics but call it even if you like.

Wade has looked Mitch Richmond level for 2 years and Bosh had a playoffs id call worse than prime Derrick Mckey and this year had a season Juwon Howard in Bullets form wouldnt call his best. Or top 3.

There are a number of team that would mop the floor with the Heat as they were much of last playoffs. They hardly stormed through the Celtics.

There were a couple of Reggies Pacer teams I think could beat them. They beat the Magic who were as or more talented than the Heat. And the way the Heat bitch over over hard fouls? Put Mckey on Lebron with Dale Davis/Antiono Davis behind him and play that physical ball?

The Heat arent that special. Not all time. Duncan led a few teams I think beat them last year. Forget the Showtime Lakers or the Philly teams with 2 MVPS and 3 all stars on top of them.

If Wade were 09 Wade maybe. But that has not happened.

The Wade ive seen the last couple years in the playoffs? Good guard. Very good even. Not great.

Dude just put up 14/7/5 on .368 vs the Bulls.

I dont know exactly what is wrong with him. I know hes hurt. But till he snaps out of it there i no room for most stacked talk.

He looks like the real Wade 3 games a month these days.

[DMAVS41]

A discussion I was having on Dirk in another topic is what put this in my head actually....

But what you said is still a straight up fabrication.

Especially assuming you mean now and last year. Lebrons supporting cast has not been especially great compared to plenty of great teams if you want to be honest about it. Wade last year did not play better than Parker in 07 and Bosh missing half the playoffs and scoring like 14ppg when he did play was not more effective than Manu in 07 either. And their role players were no more special than Bowen, Barry, and Finley were for those spurs.

Lebron is worse than 2000 Shaq, Wade was hardly Wade last playoffs...maibe a third of a notch up from 2000 Kobe if at all, and 14/8 out for 13 games of the playoffs Bosh is hardly more help than Rice, Horry, Harper, Fox and Fisher were in that run. The role players pretty much balance out....but Lebron is no 2000 Shaq.

Hell Nash had more help on the Suns than Lebron on the Heat the last couple years. The MVP...also has a 26ppg Amare who drops 38ppg on the Spurs, the 22/12 all nba and all D team Marion, Joe Johnson, and shooters out the ass?

Amare was flat better at his peak than Wade was last year partly hobbled. Marion was better at his peak on those Suns than Bosh was last year or this year doing his 16/7. Role players on Miami played D role players on the suns made 3s. Similar talent though.

Shit you wanna be real Gary Payton had an equal or better cast than Lebron won with. Prime Kemp vs slightly hobbled Wade? Id call that a wash. All NBA third team 19ppg Detlef shooting 53% and 51% from 3 vs Bosh? I'll call that a wash. Perkins, Nate, and Hersey Hawkins vs Battier, Chalmers, and Haslem? I gotta lean Sonics but call it even if you like.

Wade has looked Mitch Richmond level for 2 years and Bosh had a playoffs id call worse than prime Derrick Mckey and this year had a season Juwon Howard in Bullets form wouldnt call his best. Or top 3.

There are a number of team that would mop the floor with the Heat as they were much of last playoffs. They hardly stormed through the Celtics.

There were a couple of Reggies Pacer teams I think could beat them. They beat the Magic who were as or more talented than the Heat. And the way the Heat bitch over over hard fouls? Put Mckey on Lebron with Dale Davis/Antiono Davis behind him and play that physical ball?

The Heat arent that special. Not all time. Duncan led a few teams I think beat them last year. Forget the Showtime Lakers or the Philly teams with 2 MVPS and 3 all stars on top of them.

If Wade were 09 Wade maybe. But that has not happened.

The Wade ive seen the last couple years in the playoffs? Good guard. Very good even. Not great.

Dude just put up 14/7/5 on .368 vs the Bulls.

I dont know exactly what is wrong with him. I know hes hurt. But till he snaps out of it there i no room for most stacked talk.

He looks like the real Wade 3 games a month these days.

I agree with all of this, but I'm a bit confused as to your point.

[ripthekik]

lol kblaze is just pretty much like pauk now. types a ton to protect his hero lebron. This guy believes no one will remember lebron colluding or his chokes, but proceeds to type an essay about how everyone will remember in detail how kobe asked to be traded.. :oldlol:
people will remember some off the court drama.. and forget a finals performance? :oldlol:

[tpols]

lol kblaze is just pretty much like pauk now. types a ton to protect his hero lebron. This guy believes no one will remember lebron colluding or his chokes, but proceeds to type an essay about how everyone will remember in detail how kobe asked to be traded.. :oldlol:
people will remember some off the court drama.. and forget a finals performance? :oldlol:
I dont think he cares nearly as much as you think he does

[AlphaWolf24]

A discussion I was having on Dirk in another topic is what put this in my head actually....

But what you said is still a straight up fabrication.

Especially assuming you mean now and last year. Lebrons supporting cast has not been especially great compared to plenty of great teams if you want to be honest about it. Wade last year did not play better than Parker in 07 and Bosh missing half the playoffs and scoring like 14ppg when he did play was not more effective than Manu in 07 either. And their role players were no more special than Bowen, Barry, and Finley were for those spurs.

Lebron is worse than 2000 Shaq, Wade was hardly Wade last playoffs...maibe a third of a notch up from 2000 Kobe if at all, and 14/8 out for 13 games of the playoffs Bosh is hardly more help than Rice, Horry, Harper, Fox and Fisher were in that run. The role players pretty much balance out....but Lebron is no 2000 Shaq.

Hell Nash had more help on the Suns than Lebron on the Heat the last couple years. The MVP...also has a 26ppg Amare who drops 38ppg on the Spurs, the 22/12 all nba and all D team Marion, Joe Johnson, and shooters out the ass?

Amare was flat better at his peak than Wade was last year partly hobbled. Marion was better at his peak on those Suns than Bosh was last year or this year doing his 16/7. Role players on Miami played D role players on the suns made 3s. Similar talent though.

Shit you wanna be real Gary Payton had an equal or better cast than Lebron won with. Prime Kemp vs slightly hobbled Wade? Id call that a wash. All NBA third team 19ppg Detlef shooting 53% and 51% from 3 vs Bosh? I'll call that a wash. Perkins, Nate, and Hersey Hawkins vs Battier, Chalmers, and Haslem? I gotta lean Sonics but call it even if you like.

Wade has looked Mitch Richmond level for 2 years and Bosh had a playoffs id call worse than prime Derrick Mckey and this year had a season Juwon Howard in Bullets form wouldnt call his best. Or top 3.

There are a number of team that would mop the floor with the Heat as they were much of last playoffs. They hardly stormed through the Celtics.

There were a couple of Reggies Pacer teams I think could beat them. They beat the Magic who were as or more talented than the Heat. And the way the Heat bitch over over hard fouls? Put Mckey on Lebron with Dale Davis/Antiono Davis behind him and play that physical ball?

The Heat arent that special. Not all time. Duncan led a few teams I think beat them last year. Forget the Showtime Lakers or the Philly teams with 2 MVPS and 3 all stars on top of them.

If Wade were 09 Wade maybe. But that has not happened.

The Wade ive seen the last couple years in the playoffs? Good guard. Very good even. Not great.

Dude just put up 14/7/5 on .368 vs the Bulls.

I dont know exactly what is wrong with him. I know hes hurt. But till he snaps out of it there i no room for most stacked talk.

He looks like the real Wade 3 games a month these days.


- :lol so we are back to " Lebron just doesn't have good enough teammates " now?:lol ....Heat are easily he most stacked team of the past 20 seasons..

- ayways I'll get back on topic....

one thing that stands out on your list is KG..... starting from 01' - 06' dude would absolutley be engaged on offense for the first 3 quarters .....but in the 4th quarter he would not want to shoot..

I remember watching him and he would literally have multiple 1 on 1 oppurtunities to score....and in crunchtime he would not shoot.

I was all like..." FUUUKKK KG!!!......who cares....just at least try and take over ....you gonna lose ....go out on your sword!!"...

he got riped apart in the media 3 years straight for dissappearing....



- a few years later he goes to Boston and plays with 2 other great scorers who feel comfortable taking over in crunchtime....

I already kew KG was a great player.....I already Knew he was an amazing defender who played with passion....but him leaving Minn and blaming and throwing it in his teammates faces......also proved what i knew...

most of his emotion is false motivation.....he didn't prove anything except reinforcing what we alreay knew.

- there has to be more of an organic approach.....no one can punch numbers into a computer and get player attributes to determine a outcome...


" If Jordan turned his ankle in 93'...Barkleys suns win a title".....doubt it....no one knows for sure....but what we do know....to the winner goes the spoils....





duh!

[iamgine]

Well clearly the "not being able to win with them" are just hyperbole to make a point that their way are not the ideal way to win.

Maybe the saying should be "it'll be hard to win with player x stay the way he is" because that's essentially what people means.

[NumberSix]

Lebron can't win without 2 all stars. Quote me on this, bookmark this, feel free to bump anytime. He can't.
Thought you were gonna leave ISH after the Knicks lost

[ripthekik]

Thought you were gonna leave ISH after the Knicks lost
yo, after some time, I finally got a few posters to pitch in for your high school education. Well.. three posters with a total of $3. Still far from the target.. but should be enough. Hopefully a 30 year old will not stand out too much in a high school classroom, but all the best, numbersix. Contact me if you want to get that degree. Or we can also try to get you a GED :applause:

[Kblaze8855]

- :lol so we are back to " Lebron just doesn't have good enough teammates " now?:lol ....Heat are easily he most stacked team of the past 20 seasons..
duh!

Who said they were not good enough? I said they arent that special relative to great teams. Lebron is no more effective than Duncan, Parker 05-07 was about as good as Wade has been since he fell off(I suppose hes hurt), and Bosh or Manu? I take Manu. Ive never been high on Bosh.

Me from 2007 on Bosh:




Tell me the relevance of making a level between like 18 and 24. What good does it do? Not like Bosh has the Blazers in the playoffs or Randolph couldnt have them sucking(no......500 in the east is not too good a record to be called sucking).





Duncan

KG
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
Bron
AI
Melo
Arenas
Nash
Kidd
Yao
Brand
Allen
Mcgrady
Marion
Carter
Boozer
Redd
Paul
D.Howard
J.Howard
Gasol
Pierce
Joe Johnson
Baron
Amare


Thats 27 players with maybe 3-5 anyone could say Bosh is flat out inarguably better than. And thats leaving out guys like Bibby, Rashard Lewis, Odom, Zach Randolph, Rip Hamilton, and Artest.


Why do we really need levels at that point?


Bosh could reasonably be put anywhere from 15-16 to the early or mid 20s.


How many levels are there? Like 28? Its like making a level between Ricky Davis and Richard Jefferson. Sure one might be somewht better. But at that point who even gives a ****?


And I notice quite a few people I forgot.



Never ****ed with him. Especially not after he complained about Asik diving for loose balls near his legs and saying he wants to chill and coach has to meet him halfway on the working hard thing....


With a different #3 id probably consider them more talented historically.


But id take Vin Baker over Bosh.


He just never struck me as special.


That frontline doesnt want it with prime Shaq and Wade lately is no better than young Kobe. Worse if we mean this year.


Bosh isnt the difference between those teams I dont think.


Id bet on Shaq/Kobe in 6 or 7.

[Legends66NBA7]

I agree with the Bosh points. He can still contribute highly as a 3rd option, but he just doesn't impact the game that much. He requires the best player in the game for the most part to cover for him, which doesn't tell me anything about himself.

Ever hear Rick Barry be part of the "can't win with him, due to being a chucker/racist to teammates" stance ? Then goes on to lead arguably the weakest cast of all-time to a chip inn 75 ?


yo, after some time, I finally got a few posters to pitch in for your high school education. Well.. three posters with a total of $3. Still far from the target.. but should be enough. Hopefully a 30 year old will not stand out too much in a high school classroom, but all the best, numbersix. Contact me if you want to get that degree. Or we can also try to get you a GED :applause:

People pay for high school ?

[LAZERUSS]

Gifted Pippen.


Quote:
David Robinson .Too soft/no passion.


Injured his way into Duncan.


Quote:
Shaq. Cant hit Fts/isnt serious enough


Gifted Phil Jackson.


Quote:
Kobe post shaq(see Jordan).


Gifted Gasol (who was the better player, btw).


Quote:
Lebron...well..read topics like this:


Conspired with Wade & Bosh.


Quote:
KG...


Gifted Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.


Quote:
Dirk. too soft...doesnt rebound...wont post up. All that. Topics like the one that gets bumped now and then on how he will never win. you know what I mean.


Actually your only example of someone who overcame and won without being gifted something for nothing. Congrats... I guess?


Quote:
Wilt. Too selfish...doesnt care...whatever. Wasnt generally liked/respected as much as one might think.


Only won because of the lack of competition(would not get it done with 30 teams). Russell dominated by knowing how to play the game and get teammates involved instead of it all being about him as an individual.

Worthless topic is worthless.

Read more at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300496#xtorbOFs7uPlvZAD.99

Interesting that Chamberlain played on a 68-13 team in a 10 team league, a 62-20 team in a 12 team league, and 69-13 and 60-22 teams in 17 team leagues. Seems like he might have played on 70+ in teams in leagues that were watered down with 30 teams.And can you imagine the numbers he would have put up had he faced the dorks that permeate rosters in 30 team leagues, instead of routinely facing several HOF centers 8-12 times each per season?

[LongLiveTheKing]

He wasn't the star but back in his Sacto days everyone said a team could never win a title with Jason Williams as their starting PG, so the Kings traded him for the more responsible/tame Mike Bibby. Couple years later and

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/363/919/JasonWilliams2_display_image.jpg

Started every game of the playoffs and the Heat won the title with J Dub averaging only 1.6 TO per game.
I remember he did great! :bowdown: