Kobe Bryant: top 6 GOAT

[SwayDizzle]

Kobe made top 6 all time this year (in his 17th season) and didn't even get to play in the playoffs.
Discuss...

[dh144498]

Kobe made top 6 all time this year (in his 17th season) and didn't even get to play in the playoffs.
Discuss...

truth.

[9erempiree]

I agree.

Top 6 is perfect. Not overrated and not underrated.

[LosScandalous]

Agreed

[dh144498]

I agree.

Top 6 is perfect. Not overrated and not underrated.

slightly underrated if you ask me.

[Solefade]

I agree

[Rose'sACL]

I agree.

Top 6 is perfect. Not overrated and not underrated.
Not rating Kobe as top 2 is a sign that you are losing your trolling instincts. Such weak trolls on this forum.

[daj0264]

between 10-15 and thats only because of shaq

[SwayDizzle]

between 10-15 and thats only because of shaq
bean is better than shaq

[daj0264]

bean is better than shaq

you crazy

[K Xerxes]

IMO:

Tier 1: Jordan (GOAT), Kareem, Russell, Wilt

Tier 2: Bird, Magic, Hakeem

Tier 3: Kobe, Duncan, Shaq

I got him around 8-10.

[cos88]

such a weak era for trolls. in reality he is between 7-9.




jordan
russell
kareem
magic
wilt
KOBE

top 6 means that he is better than all of this guys:

duncan
shaq
bird
hakeem


conclusion: you are a moran.

[KG215]

No, he's still in the 7-10 range.

[TheFan]

its hard to rank players, maybe we should start ranking players within their eras.
Kobe was a top 5 player in his era.

[daj0264]

conclusion: you are a moran.



:hammerhead:

[LLK21]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

[K Xerxes]

its hard to rank players, maybe we should start ranking players within their eras.
Kobe was a top 5 player in his era.

Top 3 in his era if we're not including LeBron.

Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

[Sakkreth]

No way lmao.

[Unbiased_one]

Kobe made top 6 all time this year (in his 17th season) and didn't even get to play in the playoffs.
Discuss...

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Bird

Kobe is in 8-10 range.

[tazb]

Kobe's at #10 ATM right now on my list. If LBJ gets his second ring this year, he bumps Kobe out of the top 10.

[Unbiased_one]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

Duncan gets no love. He is above Kobe, and should be given serious consideration for the top 3.

[Big#50]

MJ
Duncan
Shaq
KAJ
Bird
Hakeem
Wilt
Magic
Russell
Kobe/Lebron

[TheFan]

Top 3 in his era if we're not including LeBron.

Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

seems fair... Shaq had the better peak, but Duncan had the consistency.

[K Xerxes]

Always, always, always. Hakeem is so ****ing underrated and underappreciated.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

#10 soon to be 11

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. West

[Bandito]

its hard to rank players, maybe we should start ranking players within their eras.
Kobe was a top 5 player in his era.
That's the truth. Eras are just different. Then again Kobe is top ten in this era though:roll:

[chosen_wun]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russel
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem

This is the real list, fvck what Kobetards say.
Kobe

[Kiddlovesnets]

Kobe is not even top 10, let alone top 6.
:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is not even top 10, let alone top 6.
:facepalm
http://www.abload.de/img/micholjordonm8zsx.gif

One thing for certain is that Kobe alone is >>>>>> Nets franchise.

[LongLiveTheKing]

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. West
:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

:facepalm
NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP
Highest single single series PPG in Playoff history
Most points in NBA Finals history
Most 30 point games in NBA Finals history
Most 40 point games in NBA Finals history
Most 50 point games in NBA Finals history
Second highest single series PPG in NBA Finals history

"Next", kid.

[LongLiveTheKing]

NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP
Highest single single series PPG in Playoff history
Most points in NBA Finals history
Most 30 point games in NBA Finals history
Most 40 point games in NBA Finals history
Most 50 point games in NBA Finals history
Second highest single series PPG in NBA Finals history

"Next", kid.
Weak era lost 8/9 finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Weak era lost 8/9 finals.
:facepalm

[MetsPackers]

Kobe is lucky to be top 10 on any legitimate list. He still has no case over Shaq but that doesn't stop Kobe stans from ranking him ahead of Shaq :oldlol:

It's truly comical the justifications i've heard for Kobe being top 6-8. "Well he tecnically 'has an argument' to be over these guy ,therefore I personally place him over them" :roll: :roll: So basically, you're a shameless dyckrider? Oh wait we already knew that :roll:

When it comes down to it Kobe is borderline top 10 (can be placed barely on either side) and only Laker/Kobe stans see him as better.

[TheWalkman]

Rode Shaq to become a borderline top 10 player at best.

[arifgokcen]

I have been around a lot of forums.Consensus is #8 or #9.

Nobody in their right mind would actually rank kobe ahead of MJ,KAJ,Magic,Wilt,Russell,Shaq.After that bird and duncan is arguable.For me bird is definitely ahead of kobe too.

I would say bird is ahead of him,duncan has more accolades but doesnt have the wow factor but his impact is undeniable.I would say he is around #7-#9 closer to #9.

[SCdac]

If anybody's longevity should be touted it's 37 year old Tim Duncan.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tim-duncan-vs-mavs.jpg

- 14 All-Star appearances in 16 seasons played

- 14 All-Defensive teams (2 more than Kobe)

- 17.8 PPG, in terms of current bigmen, that's higher scoring than Howard, Al Jefferson, Horford, Bosh, Cousins, Hibbert, etc.

- 2.65 BPG was #3 in the league, highest average for somebody 36 or older since the stat's been recorded.

- 15th playoff appearance and 8th WCF appearance.

- Moved up to #2 in playoff Double-Doubles. 143 and counting.

- With about 30 more points, Duncan is set to surpass Jerry West and become #6 in career Playoff points.

- During the season he passed Charles Barkley to become #22 in career Regular Season points (23,785).

[Magic 32]

If anybody's longevity should be touted it's 37 year old Tim Duncan.

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/tim-duncan-vs-mavs.jpg

- 14 All-Star appearances in 16 seasons played

- 14 All-Defensive teams (2 more than Kobe)

- 17.8 PPG, in terms of current bigmen, that's higher scoring than Howard, Al Jefferson, Horford, Bosh, Cousins, Hibbert, etc.

- 2.65 BPG was #3 in the league, highest average for somebody 36 or older since the stat's been recorded.

- 15th playoff appearance and 8th WCF appearance.

- Moved up to #2 in playoff Double-Doubles. 143 and counting.

- With about 30 more points, Duncan is set to surpass Jerry West and become #6 in career Playoff points.

- During the season he passed Charles Barkley to become #22 in career Regular Season points (23,785).

hmmmm.........he took off 4 years though (after getting spanked by Kobe in 2008).

[alexd]

Kobe made top 6 all time this year (in his 17th season) and didn't even get to play in the playoffs.
Discuss...

not even close

[The-Legend-24]

Godbe's longevity is only rivaled by Kareem. 17th season and still dropping, 27+/5+/5+.. :bowdown:

[K Xerxes]

I have been around a lot of forums.Consensus is #8 or #9.

Nobody in their right mind would actually rank kobe ahead of MJ,KAJ,Magic,Wilt,Russell,Shaq.After that bird and duncan is arguable.For me bird is definitely ahead of kobe too.

I would say bird is ahead of him,duncan has more accolades but doesnt have the wow factor but his impact is undeniable.I would say he is around #7-#9 closer to #9.

For anyone clued up on the game, Bird is at least as great as Magic, so there is no way Kobe is greater than him. There is an argument to be made with Shaq though.

[poido123]

#10 soon to be 11

This.

1.MJ
2.Russell
3.Wilt
4.Kareem
5.Shaq
6.Bird
7.Magic
8.Hakeem
9.Duncan
10.Kobe(Soon to be out of top 10 by Lebron)

[Shepseskaf]

1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Russell
5.Magic
6.Bird
7.Duncan
8.Shaq
9.Hakeem
10.Kobe(Soon to be out of top 10 by Lebron)
Corrected

[ThaRegul8r]

If that's your opinion, that's your opinion. I don't get the point of threads like this. Is it just to find out "how many people agree with me" or what?

[poido123]

For anyone clued up on the game, Bird is at least as great as Magic, so there is no way Kobe is greater than him. There is an argument to be made with Shaq though.

There is no argument over Shaq.

Shaq has one less title, but pretty much owns Kobe at everything else..

Has won 3 titles as the leader and perhaps the most dominant peak in history(yes including Jordan).

O'Neal's individual accolades include the 1999

[TheBigVeto]

You are wrong.

/thread

[Legends66NBA7]

Bryant would have to do something really special in his final seasons to get an actual respect on arbitrary Top 6 lists. With that Achilles injury it becomes much much harder, but not out of the realm of possibility. I see him get ranked higher than that anyways.

And I don't get the take on Olajuwon being underrated either. If he's "criminally" or "vastly" underrated... and he's recognized by most as a Top 10 goat all-time already... where do you rank him ? Top 3-5 ? Unless it's just directed to a minority of few that just keep him out their arbitrary lists.

[Odinn]

Bryant would have to do something really special in his final seasons to get an actual respect on arbitrary Top 6 lists. With that Achilles injury it becomes much much harder, but not out of the realm of possibility. I see him get ranked higher than that anyways.

And I don't get the take on Olajuwon being underrated either. If he's "criminally" or "vastly" underrated... and he's recognized by most as a Top 10 goat all-time already... where do you rank him ? Top 3-5 ? Unless it's just directed to a minority of few that just keep him out their arbitrary lists.
I'm one of the few who thinks Hakeem is overrated on this message board. On the forum, most people act like Hakeem played througout his entire career like he did in 1993-95 span.

[GoSpursGo1984]

[QUOTE=poido123]There is no argument over Shaq.

Shaq has one less title, but pretty much owns Kobe at everything else..

Has won 3 titles as the leader and perhaps the most dominant peak in history(yes including Jordan).

O'Neal's individual accolades include the 1999

[Lebron23]

Kobe is a borderline top 10 player of all time. 28 yrs.old LeBron surpasses him this season.

[Odinn]

Shaq was the main man no doubt but Kobe was right behind him. Kobe has not only been better longer he had more success apart from Shaq then Shaq had with him and that is a good reason to put him ahead. Kobe leads Shaq in career Points, Points Per Game, Playoff Points.
More success?

Enlighten us.

[poido123]

Shaq was the main man no doubt but Kobe was right behind him. Kobe has not only been better longer he had more success apart from Shaq then Shaq had with him and that is a good reason to put him ahead. Kobe leads Shaq in career Points, Points Per Game, Playoff Points.

Playoff points and career points are purely a result of Kobe remaining healthy(luck based), number of seasons and minutes.


And I never bought into this "longevity" notion.

Too many whatifs, and aren't we grading the GOAT by level or peak the player reached in their respective primes? Along with how that player acheived team and individual awards and championships?

If we used longevity and career points as a measuring stick, then I guess a player who is healthy enough(luck based) to play 30 seasons(slight exagerration I know) and been around long enough to score them is somehow given props on that? Assuming Iverson played 30 seasons and stayed healthy and achieves career points and longevity, how could you boost him higher on an All-time list above guys who you know were better players? Makes no sense to me...

Give any of the top 10 an injury free career with the amount of minutes and games Kobe had, and I guarantee that they would be ahead of Kobe and have far more achievements to what they currently have. Jordan for eg. would be miles ahead on career points. I still have Kareem high on my all time list, and its not because of longevity and career points...

[Legends66NBA7]

I may be alone on this, but I think Bryant's PPG in both the regular season and playoffs is more impressive than his career point totals in the regular season and playoffs.

[ralph_i_el]

It all depends on if you make your top 10 based on accolades or actual impact

[bbp1aya]

If that's your opinion, that's your opinion. I don't get the point of threads like this. Is it just to find out "how many people agree with me" or what?

:applause: :applause: :applause:

BTW, just for reference: Shaq > Kobe; Duncan > Kobe, Bird ~ Magic

[3LiftHeatCurse]

I got him between 10-15.

[TonyMontana]

I got him between 10-15.

which is where he should belong :applause:

Kobe hurt his legacy this year. Lol @ winning zero playoff games with Dwight, Gasol, Nash and the continuous no show in games vs legit teams.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/29zdhv.jpg

[Kiddlovesnets]

http://www.abload.de/img/micholjordonm8zsx.gif


You do realize that Kobe should be ranked around 10-15 dont you? I have him at 13, and many posters have confirmed this reasonable ranking for Kobe. Stop being a homer, even as a Kidd fan I admit hes not a top 5 PG of alltime. Kobe fans need to chill and understand that Kobe is just the 3rd greatest SG(behind MJ and West) of all time and not a top 10 GOAT.

[Doctor Rivers]

You do realize that Kobe should be ranked around 10-15 dont you? I have him at 13, and many posters have confirmed this reasonable ranking for Kobe. Stop being a homer, even as a Kidd fan I admit hes not a top 5 PG of alltime. Kobe fans need to chill and understand that Kobe is just the 3rd greatest SG(behind MJ and West) of all time and not a top 10 GOAT.

lol

[Ballin095]

What's with you guys and the player rankings. No one cares about these rankings except you guys, not even these players themselves.

[Quizno]

kobe/shaq/bird/duncan are all interchangeable imo. longevity does mean something even though nobody on ISH really respects it (mostly because kobe is the name that gets brought up when people talk about longevity). kobe is probably behind magic but i do think it's close. magic's lakers were waaaayyyy more stacked than any of kobe's teams. easily. to me that does matter. i won't bother ranking wilt or russell because i never saw them play

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Shaq
5) Kobe
6) Bird
7) Duncan
8) Hakeem

[KOBE143]

Majority of People top 10 (About 90% of NBA fans)

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Kobe
5. Bird
6. Bill Russel
7. Wilt
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Shaq

:bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

You do realize that Kobe should be ranked around 10-15 dont you? I have him at 13, and many posters have confirmed this reasonable ranking for Kobe. Stop being a homer, even as a Kidd fan I admit hes not a top 5 PG of alltime. Kobe fans need to chill and understand that Kobe is just the 3rd greatest SG(behind MJ and West) of all time and not a top 10 GOAT.
5x Champion (25/5/5 average in the 3peat and 30/5/5 average the last 2 titles)
2x Finals MVP
NBA MVP
10x All-NBA First Team
2x Scoring Champion
4th All-Time on the NBA scoring List
3rd All-time on the Playoff Scoring List
Lakers All-Time Scoring leader, FG maker, FT maker, and 3pt maker

:roll:

NEXT

[poido123]

5x Champion (25/5/5 average in the 3peat and 30/5/5 average the last 2 titles)
2x Finals MVP
NBA MVP
10x All-NBA First Team
2x Scoring Champion
4th All-Time on the NBA scoring List
3rd All-time on the Playoff Scoring List
Lakers All-Time Scoring leader, FG maker, FT maker, and 3pt maker

:roll:

NEXT

Half those accomplishments are due to longevity. LOL at total scoring being an accomplishment :lol:

He is not better than Wilt, MJ, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, soon to be Lebron and arguably Duncan. So that leaves him at 11?

KiddNets was right, he should be ranked anywhere between 10-15 all time.

Kobe stans...:facepalm:

[TonyMontana]

magic's lakers were waaaayyyy more stacked than any of kobe's teams. easily. to me that does matter.

teams in the 80s were more stacked in general before over expansion came.

Kobe had the most stacked cast in the league from 98-04 and then from 08-11. 11 years with the most stacked cast. You think Magic had 11 years where his cast was better even with teams like the Celtics and Sixers with historic teams in that decade? Nope.

Kobes never won a single playoff series where his team isn't the favorite. Hes benefitted from playing on a legendary franchise with a great front office that had given him the best frontcourt in the league for many many years.

[DFish24]

Kobe haters are:mad: cause Kobe is top 6 and nothing they say or do will ever change that.

[Heavincent]

Half those accomplishments are due to longevity. LOL at total scoring being an accomplishment

Being an elite player for a long time is part of the criteria for being an all time great you know.

ISH: Where being 4th in all time scoring isn't an accomplishment :facepalm :oldlol:

[Doranku]

Half those accomplishments are due to longevity. LOL at total scoring being an accomplishment :lol:

He is not better than Wilt, MJ, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, soon to be Lebron and arguably Duncan. So that leaves him at 11?

KiddNets was right, he should be ranked anywhere between 10-15 all time.

Kobe stans...:facepalm:

Equivalents to what this moron just said in other professions:

LOL at total lives saved being an accomplishment
LOL at total court cases won being an accomplishment
LOL at total revenue earned being an accomplishment
LOL at total books published being an accomplishment
LOL at total platinum hits being an accomplishment


Conclusion: You are an idiot and should feel bad about yourself.

But you're a Bulls fan, so I can empathize with why you feel the way you do. In your mind, it's just bad luck that your franchise player missed the entire year with an injury.

What you don't see is that in reality, luck has nothing to do with the fact that your franchise player has less balls than an eleven year old girl scout braving the doorbells of her neighborhood for the first time while she tries to sell her goddamn cookies.

No, bad luck has nothing to do with a fact that Derrick Rose is a gigantic, gaping, porous v@gina who is a disgrace to the game of basketball.

Luck doesn't make someone bitchmade. At the other end, luck also doesn't make a player average 27/6/6 in his 17th season.

[NumberSix]

Top 20. Somewhere around 14-17.

[Heavincent]

Equivalents to what this moron just said in other professions:

LOL at total lives saved being an accomplishment
LOL at total court cases won being an accomplishment
LOL at total revenue earned being an accomplishment
LOL at total books published being an accomplishment
LOL at total platinum hits being an accomplishment


lol that's what I'm saying. He's acting as if Kobe's accolades are tarnished because he was an elite player for a really long time. Doesn't make a lick of sense.

[poido123]

Being an elite player for a long time is part of the criteria for being an all time great you know.

ISH: Where being 4th in all time scoring isn't an accomplishment :facepalm :oldlol:

It means very little...

Lets say player A is able to shotjack 35 times a game, averaging 30 points over a 18 year period and is all time scoring leader and his name was say Allen Iverson. Does that mean that Allen Iverson who is up there on all time playoff and regular season scoring lists should be ranked above a player who is 1. Better than him, and 2. Has achieved more with the type of teams he has played on?

We have to factor in, Kobe has had a green light to shoot pretty much as much as he wants from early on in his career. Not saying that he shouldn't, but that certainly is a big reason when assessing his playoff and regular season scoring records, not every player has had that luxury. He has also played in some pretty good teams.

If we want to grade players for their scoring ability, it should be assessed by comparing guards to guards and forwards to forwards. How many minutes they played in their career in ratio to their career scoring average and whether that player was playing injured etc etc

[poido123]

Equivalents to what this moron just said in other professions:

LOL at total lives saved being an accomplishment
LOL at total court cases won being an accomplishment
LOL at total revenue earned being an accomplishment
LOL at total books published being an accomplishment
LOL at total platinum hits being an accomplishment


Conclusion: You are an idiot and should feel bad about yourself.

But you're a Bulls fan, so I can empathize with why you feel the way you do. In your mind, it's just bad luck that your franchise player missed the entire year with an injury.

What you don't see is that in reality, luck has nothing to do with the fact that your franchise player has less balls than an eleven year old girl scout braving the doorbells of her neighborhood for the first time while she tries to sell her goddamn cookies.

No, bad luck has nothing to do with a fact that Derrick Rose is a gigantic, gaping, porous v@gina who is a disgrace to the game of basketball.

Luck doesn't make someone bitchmade. At the other end, luck also doesn't make a player average 27/6/6 in his 17th season.

It rates very low when assessing GOAT players...

Just because Jordan played less seasons than Kobe, and is about to be surpassed in total career points by Kobe, does that make him the better player? Or the fact that Kobe coming into his 18th season is one behind Jordan in total championships and could possibly equal or get more than Jordan make him the better player? No.

Jordan played less seasons and inferior longevity to Kobe yet still is well above Kobe on GOAT lists? I wonder why?

[Heavincent]

It means very little...

Lets say player A is able to shotjack 35 times a game, averaging 30 points over a 18 year period and is all time scoring leader and his name was say Allen Iverson. Does that mean that Allen Iverson who is up there on all time playoff and regular season scoring lists should be ranked above a player who is 1. Better than him, and 2. Has achieved more with the type of teams he has played on?

We have to factor in, Kobe has had a green light to shoot pretty much as much as he wants from early on in his career. Not saying that he shouldn't, but that certainly is a big reason when assessing his playoff and regular season scoring records, not every player has had that luxury. He has also played in some pretty good teams.

If we want to grade players for their scoring ability, it should be assessed by comparing guards to guards and forwards to forwards. How many minutes they played in their career in ratio to their career scoring average and whether that player was playing injured etc etc

This is all irrelevant. It's no coincidence that all of the guys who are high on the all time scoring list are all time greats. You don't see any scrubs on there. Look at the other names up there with Kobe. Jordan, Kareem, and Malone. You don't just end up in that kind of company by accident.

Longevity matters a lot. You're an idiot if you think otherwise. Give me sustained excellence over a flash in the frying pan any day.

[secund2nun]

Kobe is so overrated the man could not even win a playoff series in his prime in 3 seasons without a elite front court. He is around the 20th-25th best basketball player of all time.

[Shepseskaf]

ISH: Where being 4th in all time scoring isn't an accomplishment :facepalm :oldlol:
Karl Malone is the #2 scorer in league history.

Do you see him on any top 10 lists?

[Heavincent]

Karl Malone is the #2 scorer in league history.

Do you see him on any top 10 lists?

No, but it was still a huge accomplishment and he's an all time great.

He's not in the top 10 because he never won anything. You're not sniffing the top 10 without a ring. Obviously winning was never an issue for Kobe.

[Shepseskaf]

No, but it was still a huge accomplishment and he's an all time great.

He's not in the top 10 because he never won anything. You're not sniffing the top 10 without a ring. Obviously winning was never an issue for Kobe.
I know that. But the issue being addressed was only scoring, which by itself isn't enough for a top spot.

[poido123]

This is all irrelevant. It's no coincidence that all of the guys who are high on the all time scoring list are all time greats. You don't see any scrubs on there. Look at the other names up there with Kobe. Jordan, Kareem, and Malone. You don't just end up in that kind of company by accident.

Longevity matters a lot. You're an idiot if you think otherwise. Give me sustained excellence over a flash in the frying pan any day.

So would you argue that Kobe should be higher than Jordan on All Time lists because of his longevity? No, because he's not a better player.

Would Kareem be considered by a majority to be the best player ever because of his longevity and his all-time scoring record? No, because Jordan was a better player and did more in the time he played.

Bill Russell isnt up there on All-Time scoring lists, yet he is considered top 5 All-time ahead of Kobe and even Kareem. Both Kareem and Kobe had much longer careers, yet Russell still higher? I wonder why...

Because longevity is not a good measurement, what a player does with the time he is on the court is what matters the most..

[secund2nun]

No, but it was still a huge accomplishment and he's an all time great.

He's not in the top 10 because he never won anything. You're not sniffing the top 10 without a ring. Obviously winning was never an issue for Kobe.

Really? Kobe could not win a single playoff series in the 3 seasons he had in his prime without the best front court in the NBA :roll:

Prime Malone by himself would get a team a team a better than 8th seed and then win a few playoff series in a 3 year span.

[poido123]

No, but it was still a huge accomplishment and he's an all time great.

He's not in the top 10 because he never won anything. You're not sniffing the top 10 without a ring. Obviously winning was never an issue for Kobe.

Kobe would be the same as Malone and ringless if all he had was Stockton and role players around him his entire career...

Otherwise you would have to bring in Horry if we were to weight championships as highly as you do.

[9erempiree]

People have Kobe being better than MJ because MJ is a borderline era-specific player.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is so overrated the man could not even win a playoff series in his prime in 3 seasons without a elite front court. He is around the 20th-25th best basketball player of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HtbJFEzJM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj_CuS2KCz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QWdsVQN_BE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACfoBBek80

Sit back, watch the rape, then go blow some more ****.

[Quizno]

teams in the 80s were more stacked in general before over expansion came.

Kobe had the most stacked cast in the league from 98-04 and then from 08-11. 11 years with the most stacked cast. You think Magic had 11 years where his cast was better even with teams like the Celtics and Sixers with historic teams in that decade? Nope.

Kobes never won a single playoff series where his team isn't the favorite. Hes benefitted from playing on a legendary franchise with a great front office that had given him the best frontcourt in the league for many many years.
no, not really. kobe didn't have the most stacked cast in 03 or 04, for sure. everybody wants to say 03/04 lakers were stacked or whatever, but those people didn't really watch the lakers then. malone was on his last legs and was an average big, and GP just flat out wasn't very good. their bench was whatever.

his teams in 08-11 weren't any better than other elite teams. pau was great, odom was very good off the bench. bynum was always injured and was never anything special in the playoffs, he was just a good defender and a big body. it's hard to argue that as a TEAM they were any better than the celtics, the suns, even some of those nuggets teams, etc. the big difference was kobe imo

[juju151111]

Kobe would be the same as Malone and ringless if all he had was Stockton and role players around him his entire career...

Otherwise you would have to bring in Horry if we were to weight championships as highly as you do.
So 98 Mj couldnt play in the league?:facepalm 96- 98 Mj couldnt play 3 years after. So 2000 Kobe couldn't play in 2004 then.

[TonyMontana]

no, not really. kobe didn't have the most stacked cast in 03 or 04, for sure. everybody wants to say 03/04 lakers were stacked or whatever, but those people didn't really watch the lakers then. malone was on his last legs and was an average big, and GP just flat out wasn't very good. their bench was whatever.

his teams in 08-11 weren't any better than other elite teams. pau was great, odom was very good off the bench. bynum was always injured and was never anything special in the playoffs, he was just a good defender and a big body. it's hard to argue that as a TEAM they were any better than the celtics, the suns, even some of those nuggets teams, etc. the big difference was kobe imo

Bynum-Pau-Odom is the best frontcourt trio since the 80s Celtics.

The Suns were a joke by the end of the decade. The ****ing nuggets? Holy shit. The Celtics were the only team comparable and they spanked them in the 2008 Finals and got hurt in 2009(Garnett) and 2010(Perkins) so nice competition there buddy. No team had as much talent as the Lakers.

Ill end this post with Kobes 2004 Finals statline and his shooting in elimination games. Kobe has never won a single series in his career as an underdog and chokes when his team gets behind.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/e7dthi.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/4kz3w9.jpg

[Magic 32]

Bynum-Pau-Odom is the best frontcourt trio since the 80s Celtics.

The Suns were a joke by the end of the decade. The ****ing nuggets? Holy shit. The Celtics were the only team comparable and they spanked them in the 2008 Finals and got hurt in 2009(Garnett) and 2010(Perkins) so nice competition there buddy. No team had as much talent as the Lakers.

Ill end this post with Kobes 2004 Finals statline and his shooting in elimination games. Kobe has never won a single series in his career as an underdog and chokes when his team gets behind.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/e7dthi.jpg

http://oi44.tinypic.com/4kz3w9.jpg

MJ shot 45% in elimination games. 5% below his average.

Kobe shot 41% in elimination games. 5% below his average.

The rest of your drivel has been debunked many times before. Not worthy of my time.




PS. Look at his shooting in game 7 vs PHO.

50% in what is generally considered his greatest sin. Shows you how much these stats are really worth.

Lebron shot 60% in game 6 vs. Mavs, an even bigger choke job.

[rmt]

MJ shot 45% in elimination games. 5% below his average.

Kobe shot 41% in elimination games. 5% below his average.

The rest of your drivel has been debunked many times before. Not worthy of my time.

And MJ didn't have a 7' 1" monster on his team shooting 63.1%FG and drawing double teams. What the hell was Kobe doing shooting 35% more times than Shaq when Shaq is shooting 63.1% and Kobe is shooting 38.1%? Does that make any sense?

[Ne 1]

Top 5 at best, and 10 at worst IMO. Saying he's ranked 6 isn't absurd as Kobe detractors like to believe.

6 players in NBA history have averaged 30+ ppg in the playoffs on route to a championship:

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4 Players in NBA history have won back-to-back Finals MVPs:
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant

5 players in NBA history have scored 30,000+ points
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Karl Malone
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

6 players in NBA history have averaged 30-5-5 for multiple seasons:
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James

Players in NBA history who have averaged over 35+ PPG for a season in NBA history:
Wilt Chamberlain
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

Kobe has always been in the top 2-3 for shooting guards in both rebounding and assists.

Kobe is the only SG in NBA history to lead his team in assists for 10 seasons.
99-00,00-01,01-02,02-03,04-05,06-07,07-08,08-09,09-10,10-11

98-99, 03-04, 12-13: 0.4 APG/0.7 APG behind Harper/Payton/Nash - nearly 13 seasons

Playoff Assists amongst non-point guards:
Larry Bird 1062
Scottie Pippen 1048
Kobe Bryant 1040

Career playoff scoring leaders:
Michael Jordan: 5,987
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 5,762
Kobe Bryant: 5,640

Guards with the most All-Defensive 1st team selections:
Michael Jordan 9

[poido123]

So 98 Mj couldnt play in the league?:facepalm 96- 98 Mj couldnt play 3 years after. So 2000 Kobe couldn't play in 2004 then.

Come again? I didn't get what you are saying...

[Magic 32]

And MJ didn't have a 7' 1" monster on his team shooting 63.1%FG and drawing double teams. What the hell was Kobe doing shooting 35% more times than Shaq when Shaq is shooting 63.1% and Kobe is shooting 38.1%? Does that make any sense?

Teenage years excluded, Kobe played 7 elimination games with Shaq.

Shot 43.5%

Next.

[Ne 1]

And MJ didn't have a 7' 1" monster on his team shooting 63.1%FG and drawing double teams.

People always brings this up as if Kobe was just getting spoon feed open shots. Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. If anything, Kobe directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring.

Sorry, but you cant just attribute everything to Kobe's first 6 years starting to playing with Shaq. Kobe was the best SG in the league ... you don't think defensive schemes weren't being drawn up to focus on the best perimeter scorer/player in the game back then? You don't think teams were worrying about Kobe? Beside the fact is that his FG% has remained consistent across his career with and without Shaq.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely not top 6.

But definitely top 10 for now....even if Lebron wins imo.

But what is being lost is this notion that Kobe has been tearing up the league lately. Just not true...well, I should say not true in the playoffs.

We could get into the reasons, but here are his last two playoff stat lines...and this year he didn't play in the playoffs.

11 - 23/3/3 on 45/29/82

12 - 30/5/4 on 44/28/83

His teams are a combined 1-8 in the 2nd round over those two series.

Of course a lot of this is age and injuries...but that is the point. He's declining....and especially what is just swept under the rug is that he doesn't even pretend to try on defense.

Over the last 2 years it has been Duncan that is improving his legacy while Kobe's has remained somewhat stagnant....although Kobe did really impress in the regular season. Just a shame he got hurt.

[Shepseskaf]

People can toss around stats all day long, because Kobe's has amassed lots of numbers.

However, the best way to look at his all-time place is to study the list of players that he can't be put in front of, no matter what. In my view, that list contains 9 names, maybe 10 if LBJ is included.

There is absolutely no chance that Kobe is in the top 6.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Do people really think that teams doubled off of Kobe Bryant off all people? Maybe if they got a rotation wrong and tried to help one pass away. Even in 2000, teams would much rather double off of guys like Ron Harper and AC Green.

And then people act like Shaq playing with the best SG in the league didn't benefit him? :oldlol:

[rmt]

Career playoff scoring leaders:
Michael Jordan: 5,987
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 5,762
Kobe Bryant: 5,640

Career playoff field goal attempts:
Kobe 4499
MJ 4497
KAJ 4422

[QUOTE=Ne 1]
Guards with the most All-Defensive 1st team selections:
Michael Jordan 9

[sportjames23]

Ether

[poido123]

People can toss around stats all day long, because Kobe's has amassed lots of numbers.

However, the best way to look at his all-time place is to study the list of players that he can't be put in front of, no matter what. In my view, that list contains 9 names, maybe 10 if LBJ is included.

There is absolutely no chance that Kobe is in the top 6.

You're spot on Shepseskaf.

I have currently 9 in front of him, possibly ten in a year or two. People keep throwing out Kobe's resume and stats, but fail to tell us good reasons why he is ranked higher than 10.

[rmt]

Teenage years excluded, Kobe played 7 elimination games with Shaq.

Shot 43.5%

Next.

What, now you get to include or exclude years as you please? Regardless, if it was 43.5% or 38.1% - either is a LOT less than 63.1%. And I'm just using the numbers from the previous post.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Career playoff field goal attempts:
Kobe 4499
MJ 4497
KAJ 4422

You have to shoot a lot to score a lot. What's your point?




LOL - how many of those are undeserved?

2-3. But why don't we examine every other player's All-Team selections and see how many are undeserved? Unless you think Kobe is the only player in NBA history to benefit from reputation and somehow has the entire basketball world hypnotized.




Why not tell the whole story?
KAJ - 6 MVPs
Russell - 5 MVPs
MJ - 5 MVPs
Magic - 3 MVPs
Kobe - 1 MVP

Should be 2 but eh, you can't win them all I guess.

[rmt]

People always brings this up as if Kobe was just getting spoon feed open shots. Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. If anything, Kobe directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring.

Sorry, but you cant just attribute everything to Kobe's first 6 years starting to playing with Shaq. Kobe was the best SG in the league ... you don't think defensive schemes weren't being drawn up to focus on the best perimeter scorer/player in the game back then? You don't think teams were worrying about Kobe? Beside the fact is that his FG% has remained consistent across his career with and without Shaq.

I was responding to this poster - he's the one who's comparing Kobe to MJ:


MJ shot 45% in elimination games. 5% below his average.

Kobe shot 41% in elimination games. 5% below his average.

The rest of your drivel has been debunked many times before. Not worthy of my time.

No one can possibly believe that having Shaq as a team mate didn't benefit Kobe BIG TIME. And that MJ shot a higher % than Kobe even without a team mate of Shaq's caliber.

[rmt]

You have to shoot a lot to score a lot. What's your point?

The point is that Kobe shot more (attempts than MJ and KAJ) to make less points.

[Ne 1]

Definitely not top 6.

But definitely top 10 for now....even if Lebron wins imo.


Well the gap between #6 and #10 isn't that much. I don't think the difference between great player is as immense as some people like to make it out to be.

This is why I rank by tiers.

1st tier (strong GOAT candidates): Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain

2nd tier: (weak GOAT candidates): Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

3rd tier: (Top 5 at best candidates): Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan

4th tier (weak top 10 candidates): Moses Malone, Jerry West, LeBron James, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson

[Kiddlovesnets]

5x Champion (25/5/5 average in the 3peat and 30/5/5 average the last 2 titles)

5 titles, 3 were Shaq's gifts(if you are a true lakers fan, do not tell me you did not appreciate Shaq's amazing one-man show during Lakers three-peat). Derek Fisher had 5 titles too, and Robert Horry had like 7?


2x Finals MVP
I will give you that, but honestly only the FMVP in 09 was unanimous. Cant say Paul Gasol deserved FMVP 10 more than Kobe, but it was very close at least.


NBA MVP
NBA MVP does not make any player top 6 GOAT.
:facepalm


10x All-NBA First Team
Thats an accomplishment, but again you can find 10+ players doing the same or similar thing, this does not make him top 6 GOAT.


2x Scoring Champion
Too bad the Lakers had two consecutive first round exit when Kobe won scoring title. Kobe's personal prime did not come at the same time as his team's accomplishment. Weird isnt it?



4th All-Time on the NBA scoring List
3rd All-time on the Playoff Scoring List
Lakers All-Time Scoring leader, FG maker, FT maker, and 3pt maker
Not taking FG% into account? Especially when it comes down to NBA finals?
:rolleyes:

I give Kobe credits for what he deserves, but thats about it. Hes not a TOP 10 player of all time, but the fact that hes not top 10 GOAT does not mean hes not a great player, kobestans take offense so easily and its impossible to reason with them.

[Ne 1]

2-3. But why don't we examine every other player's All-Team selections and see how many are undeserved? Unless you think Kobe is the only player in NBA history to benefit from reputation and somehow has the entire basketball world hypnotized.


Yup. Everyone knows he got a few of them based on reputation, but so did Jordan during the second 3-peat era.






Should be 2 but eh, you can't win them all I guess.

MVPs are voted on and awarded by the media. IMO number of MVPs isn't really all that significant. I think of MVP winners of more like a club... if you're truly great, you'll more than likely get at least 1 MVP but it's not really about how many you win. Not to mention the media tends to boycott those whom they don't like very much after that first MVP... or absolutely wait until the last second to give them one...and they will hand it out multiple times to people they like personally i.e. Steve Nash. Shaq, Kobe and Hakeem all only have 1 MVP but have multiple rings which is part of why they're considered to be amongst the top 10 players in NBA history, while Moses Malone isn't despite having 3 MVPs, he only has 1 ring. Being an MVP winner + number of rings is what get's you recognition.

So while being an MVP is important, number of rings by MVP winners is the standard of which most are judged, not the other way around. Otherwise Moses's 3 MVPs, 1 title would be top 10 all time and he would be ranked ahead of Hakeem, Kobe, Shaq and on par with Magic and Bird. But he's not. In all number of MVPs is just pretty much a popularity vote. If the media doesn't like you, good luck winning more than 1. But there is nothing the media can do to stop an MVP winner from winning multiple championships.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

The point is that Kobe shot more (attempts than MJ and KAJ) to make less points.

Who cares? He's still top 3 in playoff scoring. To be in the same category as MJ and KAJ is amazing. That's elite company and a testament to how great he's been for so long.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kobe made top 6 all time this year (in his 17th season) and didn't even get to play in the playoffs.
Discuss...

Too many facts in this post to dispute.

[Unbiased_one]

Being an elite player for a long time is part of the criteria for being an all time great you know.

ISH: Where being 4th in all time scoring isn't an accomplishment :facepalm :oldlol:

He's also the all time leader in tovs and missed fgs. Longevity works both ways.

[Ne 1]

Cant say Paul Gasol deserved FMVP 10 more than Kobe, but it was very close at least.

Not really. I would agree, but the problem is you cant be close to an MVP when you were invisible on the road. Gasol played great games at home, but in Boston he looked lost. Reminded me of the 2008 Finals all over again when he reverted to Gasoft.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

5 titles, 3 were Shaq's gifts(if you are a true lakers fan, do not tell me you did not appreciate Shaq's amazing one-man show during Lakers three-peat). Derek Fisher had 5 titles too, and Robert Horry had like 7?

You aren't a real basketball observer if you think Shaq was a 1 man show.


I will give you that, but honestly only the FMVP in 09 was unanimous. Cant say Paul Gasol deserved FMVP 10 more than Kobe, but it was very close at least.

No it wasn't. 1 game where Gasol arguably outplays Kobe doesn't mean he should have won finals MVP. Kobe was the best player in the series by a nice margin.

[Unbiased_one]

Yup. Everyone knows he got a few of them based on reputation, but so did Jordan during the second 3-peat era.







MVPs are voted on and awarded by the media. IMO number of MVPs isn't really all that significant. I think of MVP winners of more like a club... if you're truly great, you'll more than likely get at least 1 MVP but it's not really about how many you win. Not to mention the media tends to boycott those whom they don't like very much after that first MVP... or absolutely wait until the last second to give them one...and they will hand it out multiple times to people they like personally i.e. Steve Nash. Shaq, Kobe and Hakeem all only have 1 MVP but have multiple rings which is part of why they're considered to be amongst the top 10 players in NBA history, while Moses Malone isn't despite having 3 MVPs, he only has 1 ring. Being an MVP winner + number of rings is what get's you recognition.

So while being an MVP is important, number of rings by MVP winners is the standard of which most are judged, not the other way around. Otherwise Moses's 3 MVPs, 1 title would be top 10 all time and he would be ranked ahead of Hakeem, Kobe, Shaq and on par with Magic and Bird. But he's not. In all number of MVPs is just pretty much a popularity vote. If the media doesn't like you, good luck winning more than 1. But there is nothing the media can do to stop an MVP winner from winning multiple championships.

Kobe's one mvp was a lifetime achievement award. The year that kobe won the mvp, he was miles behind in win shares. So far behind that that sort of margin hadn't been seen in 50 years. other mvp winners with similar deficits are nash (twice) derrick rose and iverson. and there are no others even close.

Win shares aren't everything, but they tell a pretty good story here. Fact is, kobe has never been even third in win shares. He's been a top 5 player in the NBA for a very long time. But he has never been the best.

[Unbiased_one]

Not really. I would agree, but the problem is you cant be close to an MVP when you were invisible on the road. Gasol played great games at home, but in Boston he looked lost. Reminded me of the 2008 Finals all over again when he reverted to Gasoft.

Player A: 29 ppg 66-163, 40%FG, 3.9 tovs, 3.9 asts, 8 rebs, 2 stls 1 blk
Player B: 19 ppg, 43-90, 48%, 1.8 tovs, 3.7 asts, 12 rebs, 1 stl, 3 blks

Who would you rather have?

Just for the record, kobe shot 33-76 with 12 tovs on the road that series...so he wasn't exactly lighting it up in boston either. And then he put down that 6-24 4 tov game 7. I know who was my finals mvp that year.




Kobe was the best player in the series by a nice margin.

see above. No he wasn't.

[Ne 1]

You aren't a real basketball observer if you think Shaq was a 1 man show.

Anyone who actually believes it was just Shaq and his little side-kick Robin aka Kobe Bryant didn't watch baksetball back then or is detractor trying to diminish Kobe's value on those teams to fit their "his first 3 rings don't count" agenda. The Lakers were far more of a two-headed monster than just a 1 man show.



No it wasn't. 1 game where Gasol arguably outplays Kobe doesn't mean he should have won finals MVP. Kobe was the best player in the series by a nice margin.


Exactly. The only reason people (mainly Kobe detractors with an agenda) even debate this is because of his FG% in Game 7.

"I thought in Game 7 [of the 2010 NBA Finals], what gets lost on people, Boston was badly out rebounded, and he [Kobe Bryant] didn't have a particularly good shooting night, but he had a great rebounding night and that probably was the difference of the game." - Celtics defensive mastermind Tom Thibodeau

Now don't get me wrong, 2010 vs Boston wasn't exactly a legendary series from Kobe, but he was still easily the best player overall in the series and he had some big games, in fact people in the media were talking about Kobe getting Finals MVP even if the Lakers lost through 6 games ala Jerry West in 1969.

[Ne 1]

Kobe's one mvp was a lifetime achievement award. The year that kobe won the mvp, he was miles behind in win shares.

Stop reading right there. Like all of these formula stats that try to combine all numbers into one, it's useless. Incredibly subjective values given to each area. Win shares may be the worst of them.

:oldlol: lifetime achievement. Kobe was the best player in the league all season. Best record in the West that year, and they only had Gasol for 27 regular season games (really 26 since he only played 2-3 minutes in one) and he led L.A. to the #1 seed in the West before they even acquired Gasol.

The Lakers were 25-11 early at the time of Bynum's injury, he kept them going until they got Gasol, then Gasol was injured and he kept them going and they ended up with the best record in one of the most competitive conferences ever. Kobe's balance between getting his teammates involved early and taking over later was reminiscent of Jordan that season. He was a great playmaker, a deadly scorer who did play unselfishly for the most part, he rebounded very well for a guard and he had his best defensive season since the 3peat.

Kobe deserved the 2008 MVP. 28/6/6/2 on 46% shooting from the field, 36% on 3s and 84% from the line.

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe's top 10 or so based on CAREER (largely due to being fortunate enough to play with Shaq his first few years because unlike other top 10 all time players, they didn't have MDE to win rings with), but as a PLAYER I'd have him borderline top 10-15.

Regardless of all the chucking, I'm not convinced he had more impact on games than a Barkley, Moses, Oscar, etc. He's just been uber-hyped and has an innane fanbase that really doesn't care about anything else other than him being top 10.

And Lebron is a better player than any version of Kobe.

I'll put it like this. I'm convinced that any other player I consider top 10 would've been top 10 regardless of their circumstances. If Magic had been drafted to a lower echelon team, he eventually would have won titles/MVPS and been top 10. Ditto Bird. The cream always rises to the top. I don't think Kobe does it without circumstances falling into play exactly how they did - and even then it's just barely, so I KNOW if he didn't get Shaq to start his career there's NO WAY he'd be considered top 10.

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe's one mvp was a lifetime achievement award. The year that kobe won the mvp, he was miles behind in win shares. So far behind that that sort of margin hadn't been seen in 50 years. other mvp winners with similar deficits are nash (twice) derrick rose and iverson. and there are no others even close.

Win shares aren't everything, but they tell a pretty good story here. Fact is, kobe has never been even third in win shares. He's been a top 5 player in the NBA for a very long time. But he has never been the best.

Also, these stans are blatant LIARS if they say they wouldn't be touting his MVPS if he had won more (they tout his Finals MVPS dont' they?).

Since he doesn't have more - "Well, MVPs don't matter, blah blah blah". Their schtick is so see through.

[Vienceslav]

top 50 player all time for sure.:roll:

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Player A: 29 ppg 66-163, 40%FG, 3.9 tovs, 3.9 asts, 8 rebs, 2 stls 1 blk
Player B: 19 ppg, 43-90, 48%, 1.8 tovs, 3.7 asts, 12 rebs, 1 stl, 3 blks

Who would you rather have?
.

Player A. He shot like shit in Game 7 which brought down his FG% a ton (from about 43% to 40%) but watching the series Kobe really only had two shit games. Game 3 when Fisher pretty much won the game for them in the end, and Game 7 just how he was forcing shots and wasn't making them. He was better than Gasol in pretty much every other game.

[Unbiased_one]

Player A. He shot like shit in Game 7 which brought down his FG% a ton (from about 43% to 40%) but watching the series Kobe really only had two shit games. Game 3 when Fisher pretty much won the game for them in the end, and Game 7 just how he was forcing shots and wasn't making them. He was better than Gasol in pretty much every other game.

so what you're saying is that of the 4 games they won he played shit in two of them? Sure doesn't sound like an mvp to me.

[Kingwillball]

Kobe's top 10 or so based on CAREER (largely due to being fortunate enough to play with Shaq his first few years because unlike other top 10 all time players, they didn't have MDE to win rings with), but as a PLAYER I'd have him borderline top 10-15.

Regardless of all the chucking, I'm not convinced he had more impact on games than a Barkley, Moses, Oscar, etc. He's just been uber-hyped and has an innane fanbase that really doesn't care about anything else other than him being top 10.

And Lebron is a better player than any version of Kobe.

I'll put it like this. I'm convinced that any other player I consider top 10 would've been top 10 regardless of their circumstances. If Magic had been drafted to a lower echelon team, he eventually would have won titles/MVPS and been top 10. Ditto Bird. The cream always rises to the top. I don't think Kobe does it without circumstances falling into play exactly how they did - and even then it's just barely, so I KNOW if he didn't get Shaq to start his career there's NO WAY he'd be considered top 10.


This is a very true post..:applause:

[AlphaWolf24]

why are we even talking about this....??????

Kobe is absolutley a top 5 - 7 alltime player..

- the simple fact of scoring over 30,000 pts and winning 5 NBA Titles pus him in that position...


- again, anyone who thinks Koe is not at least the 7th greatest player.....should be on MUTE

- move along people........jeeeez.

[Ne 1]

Player A. He shot like shit in Game 7 which brought down his FG% a ton (from about 43% to 40%) but watching the series Kobe really only had two shit games. Game 3 when Fisher pretty much won the game for them in the end, and Game 7 just how he was forcing shots and wasn't making them. He was better than Gasol in pretty much every other game.

Nobody besides Kobe detractors with an agenda really care or harp on the fact that Kobe was 6-24 from the field in Game 7. Nobody seems to remember in the deciding game of the '96 Finals that Jordan shot 5-19 or that he shot 15-35 in the deciding games of the '97 and '98 Finals (and in '98 vs Jazz he accumulated just ONE rebound and ONE assist despite playing 45 minutes...and we can also mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals vs the Pacers that same year he shot 9-25) Dirk went 9-27 in '11, Duncan went 10-27 in '05, Hakeem shot 10-25 vs the Knicks in game 7 of the '94 Finals and Shaq was 4-11 in '06 vs Dallas, but nobody ever seems to being it up. Only the typical agenda driven people trying to diminish Kobe will even bring it up. He won his 5th ring and that's all that matters in the end. Oh, and let's not forget the 'efficiency God' LeBron James shot 9-21 from the field in Game 7 of the ECF vs Boston in route to a championship last year.

[dh144498]

Nobody besides Kobe detractors with an agenda really care or harp on the fact that Kobe was 6-24 from the field in Game 7. Nobody seems to remember in the deciding game of the '96 Finals that Jordan shot 5-19 or that he shot 15-35 in the deciding games of the '97 and '98 Finals (and in '98 vs Jazz he accumulated just ONE rebound and ONE assist despite playing 45 minutes...and we can also mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals vs the Pacers that same year he shot 9-25) Dirk went 9-27 in '11, Duncan went 10-27 in '05 and Hakeem shot 10-25 vs the Knicks in game 7 of the '94 Finals and nobody ever seems to being it up. Only the typical agenda driven people trying to diminish Kobe will even bring it up. He won his 5th ring and that's all that matters in the end.

this. There's a simpler word for people like that: morons.

[Unbiased_one]

why are we even talking about this....??????

Kobe is absolutley a top 5 - 7 alltime player..

- the simple fact of scoring over 30,000 pts and winning 5 NBA Titles pus him in that position...


- again, anyone who thinks Koe is not at least the 7th greatest player.....should be on MUTE

- move along people........jeeeez.

There are at least 7 players who are categorically greater than kobe...take your pick from: mj, russell, magic, bird, kaj, shaq, wilt, duncan etc.

If someone average 15 ppg for 25 years they would reach 30000 points...you have to consider other things than stats like total points. And rings are a team thing. they are too some extent important, but if kobe had stayed with the team that drafted him he wouldn't have 5 rings.

[Magic 32]

What, now you get to include or exclude years as you please? Regardless, if it was 43.5% or 38.1% - either is a LOT less than 63.1%. And I'm just using the numbers from the previous post.

If you want to taint a legacy by including a 1-4 FG night by a 18-19 year old bench player, you might have an agenda.

Anyway, no shooting guard could average 63%. It's a ridiculous argument. 43.5% is perfectly fine for a SG not yet in his prime (20-25 years old).

[SwayDizzle]

Best Post of the Thread
[QUOTE=Ne 1]Top 5 at best, and 10 at worst IMO. Saying he's ranked 6 isn't absurd as Kobe detractors like to believe.

6 players in NBA history have averaged 30+ ppg in the playoffs on route to a championship:

LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

4 Players in NBA history have won back-to-back Finals MVPs:
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant

5 players in NBA history have scored 30,000+ points
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Karl Malone
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

6 players in NBA history have averaged 30-5-5 for multiple seasons:
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James

Players in NBA history who have averaged over 35+ PPG for a season in NBA history:
Wilt Chamberlain
Elgin Baylor
Rick Barry
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

Kobe has always been in the top 2-3 for shooting guards in both rebounding and assists.

Kobe is the only SG in NBA history to lead his team in assists for 10 seasons.
99-00,00-01,01-02,02-03,04-05,06-07,07-08,08-09,09-10,10-11

98-99, 03-04, 12-13: 0.4 APG/0.7 APG behind Harper/Payton/Nash - nearly 13 seasons

Playoff Assists amongst non-point guards:
Larry Bird 1062
Scottie Pippen 1048
Kobe Bryant 1040

Career playoff scoring leaders:
Michael Jordan: 5,987
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 5,762
Kobe Bryant: 5,640

Guards with the most All-Defensive 1st team selections:
Michael Jordan 9

[truhooper]

lol

[SwayDizzle]

Guys please stay on topic and discuss how Kobe was able to do this in his 17th season without even playing in the playoffs

[AlphaWolf24]

There are at least 7 players who are categorically greater than kobe...take your pick from: mj, russell, magic, bird, kaj, shaq, wilt, duncan etc.

If someone average 15 ppg for 25 years they would reach 30000 points...you have to consider other things than stats like total points. And rings are a team thing. they are too some extent important, but if kobe had stayed with the team that drafted him he wouldn't have 5 rings.


scraping the bottom of the barrell...

Kobe didn't play for 25 years....

He averaged 25PPG for over a decade...winning 5 NBA Championships....


over 30,000 points and 5 NBA Championships....easily top 5 - 7 alltime.

[Unbiased_one]

scraping the bottom of the barrell...

Kobe didn't play for 25 years....

He averaged 25PPG for over a decade...winning 5 NBA Championships....


over 30,000 points and 5 NBA Championships....easily top 5 - 7 alltime.

You said that 30000 points and 5 rings were enough, devoid of context. now you're changing the parameters.

So which of the 7-8 players I gave is kobe greater than?

[AlphaWolf24]

You said that 30000 points and 5 rings were enough, devoid of context. now you're changing the parameters.

So which of the 7-8 players I gave is kobe greater than?


yup 30,000 pts and 5 NBA Championshps....I already gave context in my original post.

again,

- a top 5 alltime scorer...and 5 NBA titles.....this is what he majority will see s Kobe deserving top 5 - 7 as we stand today....since there are no 6 other players to ever do that.


- again...very few fans/ people will need what if scenarios....like " what if player A played 25 years and only scored 15 points per game"

don't need what if/ contexts.....we need reality.

save your breathe......as your points are mute in my flawlesss victory.



april 2013

[dh144498]

There are at least 7 players who are categorically greater than kobe...take your pick from: mj, russell, magic, bird, kaj, shaq, wilt, duncan etc.

If someone average 15 ppg for 25 years they would reach 30000 points...you have to consider other things than stats like total points. And rings are a team thing. they are too some extent important, but if kobe had stayed with the team that drafted him he wouldn't have 5 rings.

except no one has averaged 15ppg for 25 years, so you are an idiot.

[Unbiased_one]

I already gave context in my original post.



"the simple fact of scoring over 30,000 pts and winning 5 NBA Titles pus him in that position..."

That's not context.

Again, of the 8 players I gave who exactly is he greater than?

[Unbiased_one]

except no one has averaged 15ppg for 25 years, so you are an idiot.

Great analysis. Just cause no-one has done something doesn't it couldn't happen...everything gets done for the first time at some point. My point is that if someone averaged 15ppg for 25 years and won 5 rings we wouldn't automatically consider them a top 5 player just cause of that.

[dh144498]

Great analysis? Just cause no-one has done something doesn't it couldn't happen...everything gets done for the first time at some point. My point is that if someone averaged 15ppg for 25 years and won 5 rings we wouldn't automatically consider them a top 5 player just cause of that.

except no one has done that and you are using that to justify the fact that kobe avging 25 ppg for 17 years is not impressive....

:coleman:
:facepalm

[SwayDizzle]

Hakeem is most definitely NOT better than Kobe. Kobe is the best Laker of all time, meaning he's better than Magic and also West (who some claim is the 2nd best SG of all time...NO). The 2nd best SG of all time is Kobe. MJ is obviously the best. Bird and Kobe are close on the all time list. I'd say for now, Bird has the edge, but if Kobe comes back after his Achille's injury and dominates like he did this season, he moves above Bird. Kobe is 6th!

[Unbiased_one]

except no one has done that and you are using that to justify the fact that kobe avging 25 ppg for 17 years is not impressive....

:coleman:
:facepalm

That's not what I'm saying at all. Averaging 25 ppg for 13 years (his best season was 21.4 in his first 4) is an extraordinary feat. however, he stated that just scoring 30000 points and having 5 rings is enough to get him into the top 5 which is obviously bullshit as someone could have a mediocre and lengthy career and hit those numbers.

[AlphaWolf24]

"the simple fact of scoring over 30,000 pts and winning 5 NBA Titles pus him in that position..."

That's not context.

Again, of the 8 players I gave who exactly is he greater than?

Read the whole post.....

april 2013

[AlphaWolf24]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Averaging 25 ppg for 13 years (his best season was 21.4 in his first 4) is an extraordinary feat. however, he stated that just scoring 30000 points and having 5 rings is enough to get him into the top 5 which is obviously bullshit as someone could have a mediocre and lengthy career and hit those numbers.


except no one has ever done that......in NBA History.


....that's like saying "someone could play 3 seasons and score 30,000 pts and win 3 NBA Titles"....meh.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

That's not what I'm saying at all. Averaging 25 ppg for 13 years (his best season was 21.4 in his first 4) is an extraordinary feat. however, he stated that just scoring 30000 points and having 5 rings is enough to get him into the top 5 which is obviously bullshit as someone could have a mediocre and lengthy career and hit those numbers.

No mediocre player scores 30,000 points. You aren't this stupid. Quit acting like it.

[AlphaWolf24]

No mediocre player scores 30,000 points. You aren't this stupid. Quit acting like it.


but if you play 30 years and average 12 pts a game....


aww F@ck it.

[GoSpursGo1984]

Playoff points and career points are purely a result of Kobe remaining healthy(luck based), number of seasons and minutes.


And I never bought into this "longevity" notion.

Too many whatifs, and aren't we grading the GOAT by level or peak the player reached in their respective primes? Along with how that player acheived team and individual awards and championships?

If we used longevity and career points as a measuring stick, then I guess a player who is healthy enough(luck based) to play 30 seasons(slight exagerration I know) and been around long enough to score them is somehow given props on that? Assuming Iverson played 30 seasons and stayed healthy and achieves career points and longevity, how could you boost him higher on an All-time list above guys who you know were better players? Makes no sense to me...

Give any of the top 10 an injury free career with the amount of minutes and games Kobe had, and I guarantee that they would be ahead of Kobe and have far more achievements to what they currently have. Jordan for eg. would be miles ahead on career points. I still have Kareem high on my all time list, and its not because of longevity and career points...

Some of not being injured is luck but a lot of it is being in shape and working in the off season and we know Shaq was lazy at times and out of shape. Longevity plays a big role in how we see players that is why people are amazed Kobe or Duncan or playing so well in their mid to late 30's. It makes a players career look better if they can play longer playing at a good rate.

[Unbiased_one]

No mediocre player scores 30,000 points. You aren't this stupid. Quit acting like it.

Suppose ray allen had entered the league straight from high school. He's about to be 38, and he's still shooting the ball well. He could realistically play another 5 years (although I doubt he will). Let's say he averages 10 ppg for the next five years and averaged 10 ppg during the years from high school. That's a 30000 point career for a slightly changed ray allen right there with some pretty conservative predictions.

An even more conservative prediction would be to say that he retired right now, but entered the league 3 years earlier (as he would have had the option to do). let's give him an extra 2500 points for those 3 seasons (he got 1100 in his rookie season). Then beacuse he enters his prime later, we'll bump his prime up by 2 years. Then he's got 28000 points.

No-one is accusing ray allen of being a top 10 player, and yet if he had decided to enter the nba out of high school he would most likely have roughly 30000 points by now (and he's not even done yet).

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Suppose ray allen had entered the league straight from high school. He's about to be 38, and he's still shooting the ball well. He could realistically play another 5 years (although I doubt he will). Let's say he averages 10 ppg for the next five years and averaged 10 ppg during the years from high school. That's a 30000 point career for a slightly changed ray allen right there with some pretty conservative predictions.

An even more conservative prediction would be to say that he retired right now, but entered the league 3 years earlier (as he would have had the option to do). let's give him an extra 2500 points for those 3 seasons (he got 1100 in his rookie season). Then beacuse he enters his prime later, we'll bump his prime up by 2 years. Then he's got 28000 points.

No-one is accusing ray allen of being a top 10 player, and yet if he had decided to enter the nba out of high school he would most likely have roughly 30000 points by now (and he's not even done yet).

Guess I was wrong. You are this stupid.

[HeatFanSince88]

Suppose ray allen had entered the league straight from high school. He's about to be 38, and he's still shooting the ball well. He could realistically play another 5 years (although I doubt he will). Let's say he averages 10 ppg for the next five years and averaged 10 ppg during the years from high school. That's a 30000 point career for a slightly changed ray allen right there with some pretty conservative predictions.

An even more conservative prediction would be to say that he retired right now, but entered the league 3 years earlier (as he would have had the option to do). let's give him an extra 2500 points for those 3 seasons (he got 1100 in his rookie season). Then beacuse he enters his prime later, we'll bump his prime up by 2 years. Then he's got 28000 points.

No-one is accusing ray allen of being a top 10 player, and yet if he had decided to enter the nba out of high school he would most likely have roughly 30000 points by now (and he's not even done yet).

Good post. These longevity kids are dumb as shit.

Who would you rather build around
10k points in 3 years
or
10k points in 15 years

According to the Kobe stans they'd be on equal footing. Kobe at his best is not even close to anyone else at their best. I don't see why I would reward Kobe for irrelevant seasons(like this past one) that had no bearing but to pad his scoring stats.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Suppose ray allen had entered the league straight from high school. He's about to be 38, and he's still shooting the ball well. He could realistically play another 5 years (although I doubt he will). Let's say he averages 10 ppg for the next five years and averaged 10 ppg during the years from high school. That's a 30000 point career for a slightly changed ray allen right there with some pretty conservative predictions.

An even more conservative prediction would be to say that he retired right now, but entered the league 3 years earlier (as he would have had the option to do). let's give him an extra 2500 points for those 3 seasons (he got 1100 in his rookie season). Then beacuse he enters his prime later, we'll bump his prime up by 2 years. Then he's got 28000 points.

No-one is accusing ray allen of being a top 10 player, and yet if he had decided to enter the nba out of high school he would most likely have roughly 30000 points by now (and he's not even done yet).


Suppose, could have, would have, let's say

[feyki]

8-11 .

[Quickening]

Consensus highest is 12

[Cold soul]

Agreed. 7-10 isn't bad either though.

[Mr Feeny]

8-11 .

Not even close to 8th or 9th. The highest he'd be is 12th and even then, he's soon going to drop to 13th as Curry surpasses him within a year or two.

Meanwhile lebron is 2-3 :oldlol: :D

[stalkerforlife]

Kobe is the 2nd or 3rd greatest player of all time and that's just a fact.

You can interchange Kobe and Kareem, but he's no lower than 3.

And everyone knows it.

[Nilocon165]

Kobe is the 2nd or 3rd greatest player of all time and that's just a fact.

You can interchange Kobe and Kareem, but he's no lower than 3.

And everyone knows it.
https://i.imgur.com/7r1BZDU.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/Mt71wDDEmBvgI/giphy.gif